Cultural Narcissism with Neuroscience Researcher, Educator and Author Stuart Wood

Join Dominick and Virginia for a fascinating episode as we pick the brain of Stuart Wood, a Narcissism expert. Together, we parse terms often conflated in pop culture (or more accurately, pop psychology) to clarify the traits, components and behaviors that actually comprise a clinical diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. We go on to dissect the pervasiveness of Cultural Narcissism on the macrocosmic level--as well as the normalization of it and what can be done about it as a societal ill.
 
More about our guest:
Stuart focuses on context and the bigger picture. He also hangs around with musicians (is an experienced drummer & percussionist) & a keen photographer.
 
Website: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drstuartwood
Narcissistic Abuse Network: https://narcissistic-abuse.net
Meet The Beasts - https://meetthebeasts.com

Escaping the Void: How to Support Victims Out of Emotionally Abusive Relationships: ISBN-13: 978-1399948135 -- Available on Amazon platforms as paperback and Kindle versions

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Transcript

Exploring Narcissism and Neuroscience

Speaker 1 0:45

Hello and welcome to Language of the Soul podcast, where life is story. Thanks so much for joining us today. Virginia and I are both very excited about our guest, as is often the case, but today it's a little bit ironic because in the last couple episodes the very topic of today's guest's book has been coming up. So it's very germane and relevant to I don't know what's on our radar at the moment. So it's very germane and relevant to I don't know what's on our radar at the moment, and I will read his bio in its entirety. But, for starters, he's a neuroscience researcher but currently identifies as an educator and has written a book about narcissism. So I am going to do a slightly longer introduction than I normally would, because I'd very much like to read the Amazon coverage of the book, just to lay the groundwork for our conversation. So buckle up and everybody hang in there. Slightly longer intro than normal.

Speaker 1 1:42

After completing his PhD in neuroscience, stuart Wood worked for 20 years in clinical research and medical education. Worked for 20 years in clinical research and medical education, where he became renowned for his strong people skills and ability to clearly explain complex ideas to people of all ages and abilities. And we joked in the pre-interview we're going to talk neuroscience for dummies and narcissism for dummies. I, along with, I'm sure, some of our listeners, could use a little clarification of some of these pop psychology terms that have been very much floating around in social media, so I'm glad that he can explain complex ideas to people of all ages and abilities, including very ignorant people like me. Since 2008, stuart has helped thousands of people to challenge and conquer their fears using a wide range of legged and non-legged creatures. I'm going to be asking about that. That's open to interpretation. Okay, stuart supported a friend out of an abusive, narcissistic marriage, which enabled them to begin rebuilding their life.

Speaker 1 2:43

Out of these experiences, he wrote Escaping the Void how to Support Victims Out of Emotionally Abusive Relationships, and that's the book we're going to hopefully talk about quite a bit. Stewart focuses on context and the bigger picture. He also hangs around with musicians, is an experienced drummer and percussionist and a keen photographer. Normally I would say welcome, stewart Wood. But before I bring you into the room, stewart, I am going to read the blurb for your book, because I don't want to miss that or skip over it.

Speaker 1 3:13

Escaping the Void how to Support Victims Out of Emotionally Abusive Relationships Escaping the Void opens our eyes to narcissists, how they infiltrate and infect to deliver their toxic influence. It provides simple, practical, proven steps that protect us as we develop and apply our escape plan. Written for professionals and those who want to learn more about narcissists and how they operate, the book is an important, accessible and powerful handbook that demystifies jargon and increases understanding. It shows us how to apply our knowledge to help those suffering at the hands of narcissists. How to apply our knowledge to help those suffering at the hands of narcissists create challenge and a brighter, healthier future free from narcissistic emotional abuse.

Speaker 1 3:56

Narcissism is a global pandemic seducing business. This is the part I really think is relevant to our podcast sort of the macro implications of it. Narcissism is a global pandemic, seducing businesses, governments and cultures with empty promises of status, power and influence. It is dangerous remaining hidden in plain sight. Millions are trapped in unseen and untold abusive narcissistic relationships. Some understand their plight. Others survive from day to day, knowing something is wrong but unable to pinpoint the problem. Most victims conclude that they are the problem, but all need to find a way out.

Speaker 1 4:37

So, just to hint, I would love to talk about that, because I've heard myself say we, you know, kind of like cultural add. We are living in a sort of cultural narcissism, in my opinion. Opinion I used to say you show me a societal ill and I will trace it back to greed. Lately I've said you show me a societal ill and I'll trace it back to narcissism, and I think there's a million ways in which that manifests today. So I really was excited about that last part. Okay, with no further ado, thank you so much for hanging in there, guys. Welcome, stuart Wood.

Speaker 2 5:09

Good evening. Thank you very much for having me on your show. I'm excited to hear what we talk about.

Speaker 1 5:14

Yeah, so am I. I think it's still a mystery to even us, but, as we say, we do like our rabbit holes and we like going off in the weeds. So I'm very open. Welcome, virginia.

Speaker 3 5:24

Thank you, I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 1 5:26

Woohoo, party time. By the way, where are you exactly? You're in England, right?

Speaker 2 5:31

I'm in the middle of England, a place called the Midlands, so it really is by name and by nature in the middle of England. About 125 miles north of London.

Speaker 1 5:45

Wow, is it green? You and Virginia were kind of talking about the weather when I popped into the room. I'm guessing it's green.

Speaker 2 5:51

Yes, yeah, where we are. I'm in the middle, I'm in a place called Loughborough, which is between Derby, nottingham and Leicester, which are three local cities, and we have a real privilege because if we go north, we're into the Pennines, which are limestone hills, and you know everything from rolling green countryside to quite austere cliff faces, a lot of rock climbing.

Speaker 1 6:19

That's not where the Cliffs of Dover are, is it?

Speaker 2 6:23

No, that's right down the south coast.

Speaker 1 6:25

Oh, that's kind of limestone, very fertile green against that beautiful bleached out limestone. That's what I was picturing.

Speaker 2 6:34

Yeah, down in Kent or Dover the limestone is actually a lot softer. It's actually what we call chalk, which is the stuff that you write on blackboards with. So that's a slightly different, it's a slightly softer material. But in Derbyshire there's a thing called limestone. There's also a thing called millstone grit, which is a very much harder substance and produces a completely different, more sort of austere, craggy landscape. So that's north. South of us is fairly flat, east of us is extremely flat, out into the lincolnshire and the fens to the, where a lot of land has been reclaimed from the sea. So it's like the english version of holland really have dykes and that's where many of the old windmills were.

Speaker 1 7:29

And then to the west we go through a mixture of green countryside, through foothills and into the, into the welsh mountains eventually so within, we're going to get a geography lesson as well oh, I like to make it worth your while I love it, and here we were talking about tangents and rabbit holes and going off in the weeds and we're definitely there, but it's good for me. I have a niece that lives in London and she has been listening. I wouldn't call her an avid listener, but she tunes in. So I don't know if she's been to your area or not, but I'm going to ask about limestone because it came up.

Speaker 1 8:07

I worked in Jerusalem for a few months and learned a lot, tried to learn a lot while I was there, but they obviously quarry a hell of a lot of limestone and there's, there are ordinances and there have been here and there. You know, over time that mandated the use of limestone for pretty much all architecture. Do you see? A lot of buildings I know kind of the old fortresses and abbeys and castles are built out of limestone. Is there any kind of ordinance like that where entire villages or cities are built from that limestone?

Speaker 2 8:44

Historically, people were fairly parochial. They stayed where they were and used the local resources. So in Derbyshire, where you find the limestone, you'll find a lot of what we call dry stone walls, which are walls made out of different sized chunks of limestone but without any water in between. So everything is held.

Speaker 1 9:06

They're like ashlar, like ashlar is kind of thrown together right Without yes, yeah, it's basically just one lump of stone.

Speaker 2 9:09

So everything is like ashlar, like ashlar is kind of thrown together, right Without. Yes, yeah, it's basically just one lump of stone put on top of another and they build it into a rigid structure and they use these things to line the field. So limestone is used occasionally for building, but it's quite soft, right, right right.

Speaker 1 9:31

Well, and it also doesn't age. Well, I it right, it stains very easily anyway, here we are.

Speaker 2 9:36

Yeah, they, they tend to use the. The other local stone there from not too far away is millstone grit, which is much harder and resilient to the element. So you you quite often find houses you know made out of that, or just local bricks as well. So right, but there are a country such as yorkshire where there are specifications, um, to retain the heritage, that if you are building a house it must be built either in or faced with the local stone. So even the new buildings blend in with what's already there.

Speaker 1 10:19

That's what I'm getting at, you know, I think in Paris. You know renovation is one of the biggest industries here, especially on the West Coast in LA. You know we have earthquakes so that's always the justification for tearing down historic churches and I like that renovation is a priority, for example in Paris, and they call it enduro, like building in the old school materials. They're actually more durable than concrete and asphalt and so anyway, I appreciate when there are it's to a fault. In Paris, you know, every outdoor brasserie has to have the same wicker furniture. I don't know about that, that's taken it too far, but you know, in the Hausman era kind of unified the height of the rooftops and all that.

The Impact of Modern Storytelling

Speaker 1 10:59

Anyway, I appreciate you filling us in because actually life is story, as we say, and context and ambiance and all of that is relevant. So just yesterday we, or I recorded what's going to be the episode that comes right before yours in terms of our lineup and that guest was from Amsterdam and it's just really fun, you know, hearing kind of about the local color and the culture, because I think it's all relevant. So thank you for that To dovetail off your bio but also to set the tone very much in the spirit of our podcast. I'd like to ask a rote question that we've been asking of all of our guests in our new season. Basically, do you have any views or opinions on the role of story in culture? What has story traditionally served in culture and has that role evolved over time?

Speaker 2 11:52

I think for me personally, story has been a sort of integral part of my life and that came about because I was read stories of, certainly as a youngster you know read stories of past events, and the stories that I used to love are the ones that gave you part of the scene, if you like, and you had to use your imagination to create the rest of the picture. And those you know going back hundreds of years, maybe thousands of years, parables, the old stories that you know, the whole role of story in taking essentially complex ideas or abstract ideas and making them accessible or understandable, I think you know it's as important today as it ever was, as storytelling evolving um on that front real quick.

Speaker 1 12:58

Would you say that you know you hinted at. It's interactive, your, your imagination fills in the gaps. Or, you know, I? I would say I love what you just said about uh, these are my words but giving concrete form to principles and ideas and ethics and morals, and I would say that is a big part of what story has done. It's not just putting a beard on God, but it's literally making the abstract, as Ayn Rand would say, taking concepts and making them percept. Concepts and making them percept. But anyway, do you feel that modern forms of storytelling, like, I don't know, live action, adventure films with exploding helicopters, or even what we're seeing as we scroll through social media, is it as interactive? Or are we being spoon fed everything without anything being demanded of the patron?

Speaker 2 13:43

I think what's what is happening, and you probably see it a lot more in the states than than here in the uk. In the uk we tend to be, we use a lot of irony and a lot of us.

Speaker 1 13:57

God love you.

Speaker 2 13:57

God love your humor it's not literal, it it sort of uses all kinds of tangential things to an irony and, you know, exaggerating things we're not capable.

Speaker 1 14:10

Nuance is not among new youth, right, absurdity, irony, completely lost on certain generations.

Speaker 2 14:17

But go on please yeah, I just think that what's happened is people seem to have become afraid of people not being able to make up their own mind, and so storytelling has been, has has developed or regressed, whichever way you look at it, into people having everything explained to them. So the hard part, the creative part, the innovative part of you know, allowing your mind to wander and create your own image it's increasingly difficult because everything is sort of filled in for you. It's almost because it's almost become like a moral lecture on life than a story. I saw an interesting article with cl Eastwood that his approach to filmmaking is so against the Hollywood ethic, I guess, at the moment, because he tells the story and lets the story tell itself, complete with warts and all, whereas a lot of others try to sanitise it or try to take out the awkward bits and explain them away.

Speaker 1 15:35

Well, I think there's another layer to it. I would just add to that that you know there are romantic notions about what constitutes literary value, what constitutes good writing, even in screenwriting, right. So moralism is generally frowned upon, sentimentality and moralism. So he is the rare individual who does want to get on a soapbox and lecture you in his films. I think he's amazing. I love his films, but you know what you're getting into. It's going to be a rather right-wing conservative view of geopolitical issues. But there are many circles for many decades now that would say that's really not art, that's didactic. So he's a unique animal.

Speaker 1 16:12

I don't think he's the best example, but I fully am with you. I would say kind of this cultural ADD that I hinted at earlier is part of the problem. Young people do want a quick fix and they do want it explained for them. My brother-in-law is an instructor, like I am. For them, my brother-in-law is an instructor like I am, and he basically got in trouble at two different institutions because he encouraged them to think for themselves.

Speaker 1 16:36

Go out to a bar, look at the non. He's a communications instructor. Go look at flirting in a bar, see how people flirt. Look at the body language and the nonverbal communication right, the facial cues, and they didn't. They weren weren't, the administration was not down for that. So I've encountered in my own teaching they just want it spoon-fed, without it being an interactive experience. But also, nuance is just just not even a thing, like you know, for the reasons you mentioned. The whitewashing, the revisionist history, everybody's tiptoe, yes, especially in this country because we're so litigious. So maybe diversity and inclusion. And what is it? Title V, virginia, title VI, these new departments that are ushering in the walking on of eggshells what goes? You know what's the casualty Nuance. Sorry, I have to preach a little bit, but are we kind of saying the same thing, stuart? I mean, there's a million reasons why. Uh, I don't think it's a very participatory experience to be a patron and to take in a story.

Speaker 2 17:40

I don't know whether it it's it's chicken and egg, isn't it with?

Speaker 1 17:44

some of this because is it.

Speaker 2 17:46

But are we create? Have we created a generation, particularly my own generation, you know, the baby boomers? Have we created generations because we had nothing? Have we created generations that almost expect everything without the hard work? And it's all right pointing a finger at current generations with what they do and don't want, but I think also one of the things of story is that it has a historical element to it and a lot of it is looking, is looking back, and looking back from where we are now, people who've been misled, I think, by the messages that we've preached, the stories that we've told, if you like, where we've created this thing of people's value and people's worth being reflected in what they have, what they own, their status, status, their title, what people see about them, you know, image, the curated image, celebrity, that kind of thing, um, and I think these, you know, in this way, storytelling has, almost, it can become more, it has become destructive, because the stories that we've focused on are not necessarily the narratives that are important for life, but the narratives that serve the current society, which is create a need and then sell to it.

Generational Narcissism and Responsibility

Speaker 1 19:20

Right, right. Well, I mean what I hear in that, and there was. You already covered a lot of ground there and you're hinting at narcissism already, because I would say the consumerism and the materialism that you hinted at is absolutely we're training ourselves. I saw a really great meme online when it comes to these latest elections and I don't want to go off on that tangent, but basically it was a bunch of slugs and snails and they were shouting salt for slugs. Salt for slugs, meaning we're asking for it, we're custom ordering a pretty grim future, and so I think in one of the interviews I saw from you on YouTube I forget what the term was, but we are training ourselves into it, not like a self-fulfilling prophecy, but self-perpetuating or something like that.

Speaker 2 20:12

You know, we're almost encouraging to condemn ourselves. We're dictating our own end.

Speaker 1 20:18

I think yeah, and I think, whenever you indict a younger generation and I will say, people my age are grateful that they can sit at a bus stop without having to have that diversion of doom scrolling rather than just being in the moment and saying hello to the stranger next to you we're very grateful. We have a foundation of very real human connection, without needing the diversion or the interim or the surrogate, whatever it is. So it's a very real thing. But you say that to somebody under a certain age and they're going to say, well, I was born into the world you created. You know, like my peers, virginia and I are from the latchkey generation and we were famously unparented.

Speaker 1 20:58

So of course, the pendulum swings and my peers created monsters by being those helicopter parents Right and the tiger parents and swooping in to save their children and protect them from everything tiger parents and swooping in to save their children and protect them from everything. And but I just think every generation blames it on the other one. You know, in the case of the millennials and the Gen Zers, they'll say, yeah, but you created this mess and I was just born into it and I look and I go, okay, but you really took advantage of, you know, all the materialism and making yourself a brand in social media and reducing all of your assets to basically commodities, you know, or currency, youth and attractiveness and all those things.

Speaker 2 21:39

Having a drink in your hand and your toes in the sand, that is currency if you look at the core of as you've already said, if you look at the core or the foundation of narcissism, it's all about not being my fault, it's someone else right? And if ever you were after evidence of narcissism creeping in and being accepted by society at a very subtle level, then perhaps that's one of them. You know, because one of the strong, and we'll get on. I'm sure we'll get on to this later, but one of the strong components of a narcissist is that they are unable to accept responsibility for their own actions and therefore they will blame everyone else, and the whole thing of a blame culture is very narcissistic.

Speaker 1 22:32

It's not me, it was him, right, there's so much irony there because, yeah, one of the things you did say in that very same interview on YouTube was, you know this idea the haters Right. What's more ironic than the fact that, rather than taking responsibility for your circumstances and conditions, anyone that disagrees with you is a hater right? And then I think we are so quick to use the word narcissist for anyone that we don't get along with. We're so quick to do that because there is an inability to have a meta-self or simply relinquish pride and ego to take responsibility. So, yeah, the whole culture supports that, this whitewashing we're talking about, and revisionist history.

Speaker 1 23:14

Anyway, though, before we get into those nuances because I fully agree, and that's what I meant by cultural narcissism there's a million ways in which it's self-perpetuating. But before we do that, maybe you could define some terms, because I do feel like it's a little bit irresponsible, even me, you know. I want to know what the clinical diagnoses actually are, and I know he's spoken about how narcissism is a gamut, you know, or a scale, and how we all have it to a certain degree, but there is a tipping point where it becomes, you know, narcissistic personality disorder. Would you mind giving us a real quick breakdown, like narcissism for dummies in terms of terminology.

Understanding Narcissism and Toxic Relationships

Speaker 2 23:54

Yeah, as you say, we all have narcissistic characteristics and these are those that you deem selfish, where we use them to get what we need. It's part of our kind of survival in the world and it's an important part of us. But we have empathy, which is that ability to appreciate how our words and actions impact other people, or you know particularly the person that we're speaking to. And so when we get a bit narcissistic, when we get a bit over the top, if someone says to us, whoa, that was out of order, what we do is we take a step back, assess where we are and we say, yep, sorry, I shouldn't have done that, sorry if I upset you, I didn't mean to. And there's that ability to self-reflect and also try and resolve the situation. Situation when it comes to narcissists, they have no empathy, and therefore, how their words and actions impact other people, um, it doesn't bother them, for want of a better expression, if it upsets the other person. That's the, that's the other person's fault, it's for them to deal with. You know, it can't possibly be the narcissist's fault, because the narcissist is incapable of making mistakes in their own mind, or at least that's that, that's what they kind of present to the world. So we have narcissistic characteristics but we balance those with empathy.

Speaker 2 25:32

When it comes to narcissism itself, just because someone is selfish, rude, blanks you, goes quiet on you these sorts of behaviors you know tells you they don't like you, etc. That doesn't make them a narcissist. But a narcissist is made up of those sorts of things. So it's like a. The. The statistical manual, the um dsm diagnostic and statistic manual for psychiatric diseases, lists nine different qualities which include things like highly entitled, um have a grandiose sense of of your own self. So the inflated sense of self, um they are. They can be very easily provoked, so they will go from zero to a hundred in the, you know, in half a second. So their ability to control emotions is is not good. And there are nine of these, these sort of characteristics, which for an actual clinical diagnosis of narcissism you only need five or more to be diagnosed with this thing called narcissistic personality disorder, npd, which is a clinical diagnosis.

Speaker 1 27:08

Can.

Speaker 2 27:08

I jump in. I want to ask you a question real quick Um yeah.

Speaker 1 27:12

I know, like with alcoholism, one of the defining factors is, you know, because you have social drinkers, you have people that say, I don't have a problem, you know, uh, I think one of the defining characteristics always is, yes, but does it impact your own ability, you know, to achieve your goals or to manifest? Or simply, uh, does it interrupt your daily functioning? So I think in that same interview you kind of hinted that I mean the word toxic comes up. It does seem to like with those five of nine traits, for example, suddenly it impacts relationships or it's simply I don't know, I'm using my words counterproductive in terms of fulfillment or tranquility and peace and you know, well-being and so. But to me I hear a little bit of like ooh, it's subjective, it's in the eye of the beholder. When you use words like toxic, is it true that's one of the defining factors? Is it interrupting your daily functioning or affecting your relationships, that sort of thing? Because toxic to me is in the eye of the beholder.

Speaker 2 28:14

I think another word that's used, certainly in relation to narcissism, is the word pathology or pathological.

Speaker 1 28:22

Yeah, when does it become pathological?

Speaker 2 28:25

So when narcissism, or when one's behaviour and actions begins to influence the behaviours, opinions and actions of another person, that's when you're getting into toxicity. Because I think you know we all have bad days when we suddenly go off on one and then realise we've upset someone and we can apologise. But with narcissism, this is a persistent and continual approach to other people. So if you want to sum narcissism up in one simple sentence, it's basically you and the rest of the world and everyone in it is here to serve me. That's how the narcissist views society. End of there isn't any, there's no nuance. Outside of that, Everything and everyone exists.

Speaker 1 29:17

Everything is an object, right? The word solipsism is a word that I use in my writing. Solipsism is you're the only real entity. Everything else is an object and I would say that's the ultimate in isolation. So a moment ago I think you hinted at sociopathy too. That's why I want to clean up our language just for our purposes on this podcast. I know vanity, arrogance those words get conflated with a true narcissism, actually quite a bit. And then you get into solipsism, where maybe there's a degree of isolation, so everything becomes an object there for your manipulation. But then sociopathy I think you said something earlier about a complete lack of empathy and I thought well, that's sociopathic. At that point Can you talk to those terms a little bit Arrogance, vanity, egocentrism even in French you hear oh, il est egoiste, he's an egoist. You hear that a lot. And of course everything is culturally relative too in terms of what we get away with.

Speaker 2 30:19

So like sociopath, sociopath or sociopathy is a combination of and narcissism, which is this total inability to appreciate the impact you're having on people, whilst willfully manipulating others to get what you want from them, regardless of the cost to them. And that overlaps with a thing known as antisocial behaviour disorder, which is another clinical diagnosis. And so, in those in the sociopaths, very often what you're seeing is a mixture of of narcissism, along with, um sadism stroke right you know, enjoying seeing people, other people suffer.

Speaker 2 31:18

So narcissism is on a spectrum, even just as toxicity is on a spectrum. So narcissism is also on a kind of spectrum, from mildly toxic but still toxic because by definition it's narcissistic to where the narcissist is willingly and by design hurting people without remorse. And there's been work done on the profile, if you like, of mass killers, so people who get caught in the school shootings etc. And, um, covert narcissists, which often move into the sort of little more sneaky about how they do it, but it moves into this, this realm where there's an element of sadism. If you look at the personality profiles of people who are covert narcissists and those who are mass killers, they're actually very, very similar and for me that's a warning that when you're dealing with these people, when you're dealing with narcissists, when the term narcissist is used, it should be used only in those situations where someone's actions and words are sufficiently toxic or affect the other person that they lose.

Speaker 2 33:03

They can lose identity of who they are. They can lose all self-confidence. They can lose their, their reason for living.

Speaker 1 33:12

Really it's, and combined, let's get in yeah, let's get into the relationship dynamics in a moment. Yes, I think some have juxtaposed narcissists and empaths as being magnets to one another. But the reason you're really hinting at, the reason I wanted to clean up the language, because I do think it's irresponsible to conflate terminology, because it kind of normalizes it if that makes sense. And you know, even with the Me Too movement, I think there was a moment where it became very clear we need to reserve potent words like assault for assault. You know, if it's workplace harassment, let's be very clear about that. And so I think it's a disservice, frankly and maybe you could speak to that to throw around these words in pop culture irresponsibly. Does that make sense a little bit?

Speaker 1 34:00

Yes, because the proper attention doesn't go where it needs to go yes, and it's.

Speaker 2 34:05

It is very much. It's that you know. It comes back to the storytelling element. I think here that when you've been talking, when we talked about stories before, the whole point of the stories was it allowed you to think for yourself, but there was sufficient in there to allow you to come to the right conclusion. So if it was a fable, you at the end of it you might have imagined the story looking slightly different, but you came to the right conclusion. And I think the problem with using narcissism as a generic term, it's a bit like using hoovering instead of vacuuming you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 34:47

Oh, I see.

Speaker 2 34:48

Yeah, exactly, it's like something specific the hoover that was created by hoovering.

Speaker 1 34:52

Or a Q-tip as a cotton swab. Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2 34:56

We take brand names yeah.

Speaker 1 34:58

Yeah, but it also muddies the waters is what I would say, and it's happening right now with the fires. You have AI images of the Hollywood sign on fire you know what folks, it's not on fire. And then you have everything being politicized or sensationalized otherwise and it actually inhibits the ability to be helpful. I just posted on Facebook, before we started this, a list of lies from the right about Gavin Newsom and why the fire hydrants didn't work. You know, I think when something catastrophic happens, we want really elaborate explanations for it. So that's human nature. But politicizing is another story. So, anyway, it just muddies the waters and it actually it's harder to truly diagnose somebody and help somebody in a toxic relationship. So sorry, if you have more to say, just you know, steer it back on your own, but it might be a good time to ask you about your story. What drove you to really learn more about narcissism and write your book?

Navigating Gaslighting and Narcissism

Speaker 2 36:02

I was. I was in hospital ironically, I had a heart attack and heart surgery and I was back in hospital for some complications and if you were looking for the ideal person for people to talk to without fear of coming back, it's either the hairdresser or the hospital patient. So I had people coming to me and you know what you hear. They just felt safe to offload and one particular friend came and just shared what was going on in the marriage and I'd known them both for about 11 years or so and I'd heard the odd little story from her over the time. But when she actually brought it all together as to how she felt, how she was treated, how she felt totally disempowered, etc. There were alarm bells going off left, right and centre in my head and you know she was saying, look, I just think it's over, but I don't know how to go about it. I don't know about, you know, whether I should leave. I want to leave, but what will happen? And I just said rather naively well, whatever you choose to do, I'll support you.

Speaker 2 37:19

Basically, Sounds good to me. Yeah, but that was the beginning of four years of hell for her and for myself, and that really showed me, if you like, the side of narcissism that the general public don't see, because narcissists have two faces. They have this, what they call the mask, or an image that they like to project to the outside world, which is all about being confident, all about being good and altruistic and, you know, supporting the community and supporting charitable causes and all things which people view as good and actually are good, but underneath it all, they are incredibly insecure. They hate themselves and they actually hate everybody else, and when you're starting from that point to build relationships, the chances of building a healthy relationship are pretty slim, which is why, when you were saying about the fires and the ai and the false information, one of the really dominant things with narcissism which actually came out in this particular instance that I was helping was this thing they call gaslighting yes, yes, of course which is again it's another term that bounces around exactly.

Speaker 2 38:41

Gaslighting is actually a psychological weapon that's used against other people by denying their reality. They actually doubt their own reality until eventually they rely you. They'll be on you, the abuser, totally for their direction, because they are convinced that they're no longer capable of making decisions for themselves. And so when you get societal narcissism or political narcissism and that's your route it's not going to end well. That's a different story. That's a different, that's a it's a different story. But basically, when those are the influences that you are, under daily from the people who are ruling the country, oh yeah you know.

Speaker 1 39:31

Well, that's what I was actually. Sorry, virginia, I want you to jump in, but that's kind of what I was going to steer it toward is, I mean, what better example in terms of self-aggrandization, objectifying, you know, just basically all ego all the time We've got a world leader who is normalizing that? So I remember back when what's that game show called? You are the weakest link, be gone. You know, the weakest link. I remember my friend Mark was like, oh my God, even our daily discourse is shifting because it's suddenly okay, right, you have a rude host and we just don't even like fish in the boiling water, don't even, I guess, crabs in the boiling water don't even notice the cultural shift in how we relate to one another. So, yes, this is the ultimate normalization of narcissism the political landscape Sorry.

Speaker 2 40:19

It is. And I think, when you, you, when I, the reason I went on to that is that that becomes normalized, in whatever situation it manifests, and therefore becomes accepted, and so the background noise goes up. We don't notice, it's there, it becomes the normal, and then it allows them to take the next step. And that's exactly how narcissists work within a relationship, because this particular person that I was helping throughout the time she was desperately trying to get away, um, you realize, you know how these people will lie, compulsively, so, even to the point. Um, not in my case, but another friend who who went around to see a lady who was concerned that her husband may be narcissistic.

Speaker 2 41:14

The guy made them drinks and my friend said I actually watched him put coffee in three cups and he gave them their coffees and he said oh, I'm going to enjoy a cup of tea. And his wife said no, I've just seen you put coffee. And he goes no, no, this is tea, you've got it wrong, you've not seen it properly. And my friend said no, I've just watched you put a cup of coffee, a spoonful of coffee in there as well, it's got to be coffee. And he said no, smell it here, have a smell and she said I smelled it and it was coffee.

Speaker 1 41:51

She said, yeah, it's coffee, he goes no, no, no, you're wrong, it's tea, and so it sounds a little bit like you know being able to accept, uh, the results of an election. You know you talk.

Speaker 2 42:01

If you say it enough, it's true it's also the fact that part of their way of operating is to so distort the truth or perception of truth in the other person that they can get away with it I want to go back to gas lighting a little.

Speaker 1 42:18

Yes, because we're talking about the muddying of the waters. You hinted at the noise and that's what. That's why I mentioned being crabs in the boiling water. Right, it's the same phenomenon. We don't recognize it when the stakes are actually high, and so I just wanted to say I've found the term gaslighting very helpful.

Speaker 1 42:37

I'll just give you an example if you're experiencing ageism, you're not allowed to talk about it, because when you do, I work in animation and it's run by 12 year olds. I'm sorry, I'm 56 and my opportunities are very limited, due strictly to my age. Now I can build a story around that, right, but people that have and I have a black friend that even way back in the nineties he had to educate me on the stereotypes I had no real inkling and he would say I've never identified as a victim. You know, I've never given airtime to any of that, and so we all have our own experience. But I think, basically, when you speak up and it is a culture right now, right, of speaking up or rage against the machine, call it what you want, me too is an example of it or symptomatic of it but when you speak up against the powers that be, you are often gaslit. Oh no, I've had a great experience.

Speaker 1 43:37

Well, if you're lucky enough to not have been affected by ageism or, for example, been fired right before you're fully vested in your benefits, if you've been lucky enough, then just thank the Lord and move on. You don't gaslight people that have you know what I mean fallen victim to it. Yeah, does that example make any sense? Go ahead, virginia.

Speaker 3 44:00

Well, as I say, I think that they you not only get gaslit, but they also block you.

Speaker 1 44:02

They try and shut down your own intuition of what you're seeing.

Speaker 3 44:05

And so I think it's helping people to not trust intuitively their own inner awareness of what they're seeing so people aren't wanting to speak out because they're doubting.

Speaker 1 44:15

That's the ultimate usurping of power too right In a relationship. But I guess I was hinting at there's some irony here because I'm part of the problem and not the solution and that I do use the word gaslighting in probably low stakes situations when I shouldn't. But the irony is maybe that's why people dig in their heels in a very unexamined way and start using these terms irresponsibly, because you know what I mean. When gaslighting is a form of normalization, when it's not clinical narcissism, then you have the other side kind of digging in their heels and identifying as an empath or, you know, really calling out narcissism. And I want to go down this road a little bit.

Speaker 1 44:55

Again, let's just call me part of the problem and not the solution, but I'm very open to being educated. Of course I have a friend like yours who has absolutely been crying narcissism for several years now and, yeah, the tough love part of me is like get the fuck out and put your violins away. You know what I mean and it takes two to tango and your dynamic put you exactly where you are. So I'm really big on you know, taking responsibility. We all manifest our thoughts and feelings. What do you give airtime to?

Speaker 1 45:25

It's very convenient culturally to just accuse, like you said, everybody being a hater or being a narcissist, but then there is true, clinical narcissism. So I'm trying to be patient and be compassionate and you were really there for your friend. When is it? You know what I mean? Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, take responsibility for contributing to this dynamic. I mean, I happen to know there are peptide addictions and we will find I've said sorry, virginia, on this podcast a codependent will find an alcoholic across the room because they have a peptide addiction. So how do these self-professed empaths magically find a narcissist and what is their responsibility level?

Speaker 2 46:08

That's a great question. I think when you're going to the opposite extremes or opposite poles of the scale, like narcissist and empath, then there is dysfunction at both ends. The empath is desperate for someone to put their, to lavish their love and their feelings on, and the narcissist is desperate for that. So they're almost like a perfect lock and key and fit together. So if you were looking for the ideal match for a narcissist, it would be someone who gives them what they've not got, which is most things when it comes to human interaction. So if you find an empathetic person, then the narcissist will latch on to them, and particularly those who are more empathetic. Then the narcissist will latch on to them, and particularly those who are more empathetic, because quite often they're not good at setting boundaries Right. Right, Narcissists have no boundaries and if you have them, they'll just try and continually trample over them. Someone who's in a healthier position will say no'm sorry, you can't do that or I'm not accepting that. That's unacceptable behavior. Empaths are not used to having boundaries in place either and therefore they're.

Speaker 2 47:31

They're almost like the perfect knock. Narcissist father really right, right but when it comes to a narcissistic relationship, it's victim blaming is is actually very, very dangerous, simply because the way the narcissist works on them, as you know as Virginia's already alluded to is that they they use the same process that someone uses you to get hooked in or addicted to gambling or to alcohol. It's this intermittent reinforcement, so they'll give you a good time.

Speaker 1 48:13

Do you feel that it's completely subconscious and unexamined on the part of the narcissist? Or do they have a textbook? Do they have a manual?

Speaker 2 48:22

Oh, this is their reason for living, almost. Modus operandi, yeah, modus operandi. Without doubt it's calculated.

Speaker 1 48:33

There's two questions, because we're kind of all over the place in a very good way. But just before I forget, I don't want to forget this question, and now we've hinted at it yet again is it a manual or is it all unexamined? And if they don't have a meta self, then it could very easily be completely egocentric and unexamined. But I guess what I wanted to ask is you know, a complete lack of empathy? You know we hinted to that healthy narcissism is the ego doing its job and protecting us? And that kind of lapses into sort of being out of balance in some cases. So I guess I would ask you know, a complete lack of empathy sounds a little bit like your mom didn't do her job. So what is the role of nature and nurture if we all have the capacity to get out of balance or out of whack on this front? When is it a moral or ethical issue? When did you know what I mean? The hand that rocks the cradle not do her job or his job?

Speaker 2 49:32

Yeah, that's another question. If I could answer that, I'd be able to retire on a president salary?

Speaker 1 49:39

Well, but what is the current thinking on it? Is it, are you just a bad seed when you're a narcissist, or did something fail in your socialization or your conditioning?

Speaker 2 49:48

There is no doubt that narcissists have suffered trauma in their past life. Now, part of that may that may be that they were abused, that they were emotionally abused or physically abused. They've basically learnt that they are not really worth anything and the only way they can be accepted is by what they achieve, is by what they achieve. So nothing is free Right. It all has to be earned and that becomes a driving force within them. That means that when the narcissist is you know when they're looking for that kind of validation. Really they are desperate for people to validate them. Yes, because certainly as children, they want what ordinary children need.

Speaker 1 50:54

I think we're all picturing the same orange asshole right Virginia.

Speaker 3 50:58

Well, yeah.

Speaker 1 50:59

I mean his daddy just didn't love him. It's so clear.

Speaker 3 51:17

Well, yeah, yes, I'm five, but and this particular person was loved by their family, there was no physical abuse or anything like that. It was more of high expectations within the family.

Speaker 1 51:31

And so Well, that's Trump Sorry.

Speaker 3 51:34

So basically, the where I'm going with this is so if you come from a family where you don't learn your own internal validation, it's only external validation. So your only self-worth comes from meeting these high expectations. The only time you hear your family loves you is because you won your tennis match, because you got all A's on your report card, and that's the only time you hear that you're loved even though your family does love you, but that's the only time you hear that validation, that external validation, and you don't learn how to internally validate yourself.

Speaker 1 52:08

You've talked a little bit about. Is it oxytocin addiction or is it? What's the neurochemical when? You achieve is it a dopamine rush when you get that validation through accomplishment.

Speaker 3 52:21

Right and so they live on that and so basically, like for our case study this person, they literally their grades were falling in college. They fell their. They made it into the nationals. They fell the national match for tennis and so therefore they could never play tennis again and it was all their professor's faults that they were now failing college and they could not. They had no self-awareness where their part played in it. So there is that dynamic too in the narcissist.

Understanding Narcissism and Manipulation Tactics

Speaker 1 52:54

I love that you brought that up because and again in listening to Stuart's other interviews I very much thought that we all have either as we've talked about on this podcast internal or external locus of control. But we also have either intrinsic value or we are reliant on extrinsic validation for our self-worth. So to what degree do we innately hinge on intrinsic or extrinsic validation? And you know, within one family I think you can have all those extremes. I mean, I have three siblings and we all reacted differently to our environment. If there's high expectations in a family, that doesn't guarantee you're going to get a narcissistic personality out of it.

Speaker 2 53:37

I was just. It's very interesting. Thank you, Virginia, for your lucid thoughts. You put into words a lot quicker than I would have done when I got round to it, so thank you.

Speaker 2 53:48

But yeah, what I was getting at really was that there are also cases where the trauma in the child comes from being spoiled, getting everything and therefore they they feel disempowered to make their own decisions and they also become highly entitled and therefore the expectation is that everybody's their servant right now, in in each of those situations, you know, the abused child stroke, whether that's emotionally abused or physically abused, or the spoiled child. Exactly as you've said, you can have two or three people. You know, let's say you've got three children in a dysfunctional family. They may grow up to be narcissistic, they may grow up to be empathetic, because they decide that they're not going to be anything like the narcissist system. Because they they've lacked the input emotionally, they go out, you know, they almost want to feel it and crave it and they feel everybody else's emotion because that's what they're used to feeling as they're watching their siblings being dealt with by the narcissist. And some of those people turn up. You know, perfectly normal it's like a cycle.

Speaker 1 55:03

It sounds like a cycle breaker a little bit.

Speaker 2 55:05

The normal, the narcissist and even perhaps the empath, potentially from the same family. So the feeling, I think at the moment the general opinion is that they don't know. Nurture definitely has something to do with it. Nature, your environment, certainly has a, you know, can influence it. And there's also a possible genetic link, because there are, for example, there's evidence of generational narcissism. But whether that that's not actually specific genetics, where you're the gene code, you know there is a narcissism gene that codes it. It's more what they call epigenetics.

Speaker 1 55:45

So it's how the circumstances and conditions create the methyl groups that express the gene or right allow it to express itself or not. I mean it's fascinating. We'll never get to the bottom of nature versus nurture, but what I'm hearing a little bit is like whatever your innate disposition and temperament is determines how you react to your the conditions in your household, and thank god, we have all all of the above right the one thing they do know, just to speak on the epigenetic side of it is, is there is a resilient gene that they have identified and that does help.

Speaker 3 56:20

When you're in these types of environments growing up. If you have that genetic code marker for resiliency, you tend to fare better and to be more well-rounded as an individual. If you have experienced any type of trauma, be it a spoiled child, a child of abuse, of any kind of abuse and I mean physical to emotional, on the whole spectrum you tend to fare better if that is in your genetic DNA.

Speaker 1 56:50

You spoke about resiliency in some of the interviews that I listened to. Is that right, stuart? I mean you had your own definition of resiliency. Do you have anything to say on?

Speaker 2 56:58

that I think. Going back to the question of you know, or the point about social media and psych, you know the common cultural misconceptions and things. Um, at the moment, the because people are in a position where they can just switch off the phone, block a friend, use technology for communication, then that face-to-face interaction, the human, the personal interaction, with all its facets of body language and face and nuance, is gone and therefore what you're doing is creating a general generation of people who are not resilient. Wow, yeah, and so somebody disagrees with you and it goes to yeah, well, you don't agree with me, so you're a hater and that is such a narcissistic perspective because they see things in in binary you know it's a one or an Right.

Speaker 1 58:02

And the same thing with calling another a narcissist. There's nothing more narcissistic than applying that label to somebody you just simply disagree with.

Speaker 2 58:10

Exactly. Actually, there's a pretty good chance. If you're worried about being a narcissist, there's a pretty good chance you're not one. If someone is banding the word narcissist around, that is a very common reaction of the narcissist in deflecting the attention from themselves.

Speaker 1 58:27

Well, and we saw that in the political campaign. I know you are, but what am I Right? They call it whataboutism. If you get accused of something as a left wing Democrat, there's always well, what about this? And you just turn it around Hector Projector. That's politics in a nutshell.

Speaker 2 58:43

Yeah, there's a thing called DARVO, which is an acronym D-A-R-V-O, which is used a lot in this sort of, you know, arena of narcissism, which is basically deny, accuse, reverse an offender, and so what they do?

Speaker 2 59:03

If someone, if there's a, if you were, if you catch a narcissist out, the first thing they'll do is that they will deny it, but then rapidly they'll turn it round on you, so you then become the problem in the situation and then mysteriously, they become the victim and you become the abuser, and that is a. You know, that's a classic narcissist or narcissistic tactic for deflecting blame, for, you know, deflecting accountability, apart from blaming other people, they will very quickly, apart from blaming other people, they will very quickly turn it on you. And you know, suddenly from you might make the simplest and most benign of comments, but because you happen to touch a sensitive area with these people, you suddenly find yourself being attacked by them and claiming you know them, claiming that you're being insensitive and you just want to hate. You hate them and you want them out of your life. And you know all this sort of rubbish that comes out that you've not even thought of and that also, in itself, it is a disorientating response. That's complete diversion.

Speaker 2 1:00:19

You know, when you're on the receiving end of that, you're not very few people are able to sit there and say, oh, hang on, this is. This is obviously Darvo in operation here.

Speaker 1 1:00:29

Well, I do hope our listeners are kind of tracing it back to the political landscape, because these are literally textbook tactics when political campaigning in an election cycle and you see it alive and well. So not only is it the diversion tactic look at this shiny object over here instead of the real issue but yeah, but it's um literally like uh, the victim. How can you be sent by god for some of your constituents as the second coming of christ and and also be a victim? It's so on display at this moment and I'll leave it at that when you come to narcissists, though, the word logic doesn't apply, right, because?

Speaker 2 1:01:12

the whole, the whole essence of the of being in a narcissistic relationship or being subject to narcissism, is this whole thing of them disorientating truth. You know alternative truth, however you want to define it Fake news, fake news. It's the guy basically saying his cup of coffee is tea. You know they actually use this as a as a weapon against you.

Cultural Fixation With Youth

Speaker 1 1:01:38

But the fact that over 50% of our population can't see that is the scary part and that's the evidence of the cultural narcissism. Or can see that this?

Speaker 3 1:01:47

is happening around us. What would you say would be some of the things that we can do to help bring ourselves to acknowledge it and to bring ourselves back into balance, to rediscover our own potential, to help bring us back to that human connection, to move us forward into a more positive narrative. Individually or culturally, or both both individually and and and collectively.

Speaker 1 1:02:26

Yeah, well, one hopes yeah, the ripple effect, that yeah, yeah I think there are two.

Speaker 2 1:02:31

There are it's a bit like a a business strategy the short-term goals, and then there's long-term goals or a long-term aim. The long-term aim, if you are trapped within a narcissistic relationship, is basically to be free and out of touch with that narcissist. That's where they call it no contact. It's basically leave, have nothing to do with them. But that's an ideal, and narcissists are brilliant involving children. They'll have children for the sole purpose of keeping their partner attached to them, because obviously they're entitled to parental rights as the, as the the partner is, and if you want to see narcissism really at work going to the family courts, you know, over that kind of thing. So the ideal situation is to get away, but also not everyone can do that and therefore it's learning to deal with what's happening to you on a daily basis. So it doesn't really matter whether it's full-blown narcissism, whether it's covert, any of the different manifestations of it. The thing to understand is that if you are in a relationship that's high conflict and where you are doubting yourself, where you're doubting your, you just don't feel as though you're the person you were. You actually doubt your sanity, things like that. That's a pretty good indicator that something's wrong, but you still have to deal with it.

Speaker 2 1:04:09

At that moment in time, the approach really is to diffuse interaction. So we all get that's a euphemism. I won't say that, I'll go back. Many of us feel that if someone says something to us that's inappropriate, we have to point it out to them. Well, conflict to a narcissism is this thing that we talked about earlier. Supply. It's that external validation that they want. A narcissist is a child in an adult's body, so they are basically the emotion.

Speaker 1 1:04:47

You're dealing with the emotions of a child, yes, and therefore, when you come to reason with them, you're reasoning with anything between a two and a seven year old, you know okay, I'm so glad you said a narcissist is a child in an adult body, because my brain is going to make connections throughout and I feel like I just have to say this in the spirit of our podcast. So it might seem irresponsible, like I said, or views of you know narcissism with empowering people right in their own lives to actually take responsibility and then again, through the ripple effect, we hope there's a shift culturally or even in terms of policy. But I'm sitting here going, okay, a lot of this just sounds like what's called emotional maturity and maturation and spiritual evolution, and maybe there is a phenomenon and I'm just making connections here, maybe you guys will relate to it or have something to say about it or not, but I do think that is the spirit of our podcast. The stories we tell ourselves empower us. So if you think about a child that throws a tantrum when he or she doesn't get what they want, that's the ultimate in egocentrism. So I can't help but see the orange asshole as a child stamping his feet all day, every day. He was stunted in his growth. I don't know if you view, stuart, narcissism as a form of stunting of emotional maturity or I'm calling it spiritual evolution, but I tie everything back to Virginia, wouldn't you agree?

Speaker 1 1:06:26

On this podcast, it always comes back to love, everything always comes back to love, and what that is is and we talk about the moment. We talk about connecting with one's core essence or spiritual essence by stilling the mind, and so it always just comes back to relinquishing ego, quieting the mental chatter, finding your core, and that is called love. So I'm sitting here going everything would be solved if we grew up. We have a Peter Pan syndrome in this culture. We suck the teat of youth.

Speaker 1 1:07:00

Now I'm really preaching, but we suck the teat of youth. We value it over all. But we suck the teat of youth, we value it over all else. We try to extend childhood as long as possible to the point where people are missing out on what my sister, who's been on the podcast, would call the inner realm, the inner development. So we talk the talk, we talk about right self-help and we talk about self-improvement. But how many people really are having those rites of passage where you learn the lessons that get you past this egocentric behavior? I can't help but see narcissism as a cultural fixation with youth.

Speaker 3 1:07:32

I was just thinking life experience. We don't value life experience like we used to.

Speaker 1 1:07:37

There's no currency to wisdom. It's called right. That comes with the life experience. You're speaking my language.

Speaker 3 1:07:45

And it's funny because I was just and this is so, I was just watching the most recent on Netflix with my youngest daughter. My husband and I were just watching the most recent.

Speaker 1 1:07:54

We like Fluffy, so Tell me Fluffy, should I know who Fluffy is.

Speaker 3 1:07:59

Fluffy is Gabriel Iglesias. He's a comedian, Okay okay should.

Speaker 3 1:08:04

I know who fluffy is, gabriel iglesias. He's a comedian, okay. Okay, so um, and he actually was just talking about this in in his comedy show on netflix. But he was talking about um, because we have social media and just how everything's just instantly, we can google information, and I'm not if he says he actually says is that the youth, because they can google stuff up, they can just look things up, versus rely on, like when we were growing up, because he's of our generation, the latchkey kids that you know, we grew up where, when we had to take accountability for ourselves, you respected your elders. No matter what, no matter what your culture was did not matter. You respected your elders, point blank. And that I don't want to say that hasn't really passed down to the millennials or the Gen Zers and so forth, but it seems that viewpoint is slightly different to some degree. Now, with technology in play, I guess I would say and play, I guess I would say.

Speaker 3 1:09:01

And so because of that, the way we view life experience is different and the way we respect it, I guess because we can use technology to gain that information at a younger age.

Speaker 1 1:09:16

Everything's theoretical in a way, right Like we've talked on this podcast. But I grew, you know, I drank from the hose and I don't have a third arm yet and I ate dirt and it helped my immune system, like the play thing that Greg Spelenka was talking about when he was. We go out and you know now the erector if they even exist, the Legos and the erector sets build themselves.

Speaker 3 1:09:36

But I think it goes back to what Stuart said at the very beginning when you asked you know our typical rote question about story. Stuart said at the very beginning when you asked you know our typical rote question about story. You know, when we look at fables, when we read fables and stuff we had we because we didn't have technology, we had to rely on our own brain, our own.

Speaker 1 1:09:51

That's what I mean. Creativity and imagination only occurs when you have, when you get out of that fucking house, right, sorry?

Speaker 3 1:10:04

No, exactly, and so you have. I mean, you can't go to chat gpt and say hey, I just read, you know, to kill a mockingbird and this is kind of what I thought it said. You know what do you think it means? Because this is what I'm thinking, am I right? And it can validate what your thoughts are. You can't you? Do that as kids we had to put that on paper, submit it to our teacher and go. Please give me an A, all right.

Speaker 1 1:10:23

Well, one of our earliest guests I don't know if you remember this, but one of our earliest guests was talking about exactly that, how she was tutoring a child. I'm hoping you'll remember this Tutoring a child and in order to comprehend what one reads, one actually benefits from constructing a sentence for once in their life, do you know? And the act of writing helps in your comprehension. And the parent said I'm paying you to teach my child how to read, not write. Why did you inconvenience my child by forcing them to write? It's such a short-sighted mentality because we miss out on those skills when it's not an interactive experience and things are spoon-fed to us. Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 1:11:02

Yeah, no, I agree.

Speaker 1 1:11:04

But you brought up myth and I'm going to take advantage of that. Stuart, if we missed out on some of the talking points you wanted to hit on or anything you were really motivated to impart, we can always do a part two. But I see an opportunity here. On second listen, this is going to be much more linear. We bounced around a lot, but I think it's really valuable stuff. But maybe we could do a part two and get into some nitty gritty.

Symbolism in the Narcissus Myth

Speaker 1 1:11:28

But if you don't mind, if you guys could indulge me, you mentioned myth, so, again in the spirit of story, I want to read the initial myth of Narcissus and Echo. And, granted, you know I'm not reading the Latin version. It's been interpreted, who knows how it's been bastardized, but I'm reading a version of it and I just want to see what you guys have to say about the implications. You know, what does it say about the human condition? What do the archetypes say about all of us? I think I got this version of it from Ovid, of course, which was Latin, but I think this is like maybe the really dumbed down version. I don't remember if I got it from Google's AI response or from Wikipedia, but basically we're jumping in and I have this opinion that sometimes the myths can be taken in isolation and they're still very powerful in what they communicate about the human condition, but you also have to consider them in context. So this is plucked out with no context and I apologize for that. But the version I have from Ovid's poem Metamorphoses as a punishment.

Speaker 1 1:12:30

Juno and Hera both took from Echo her agency and speech. I don't know what she did, but clearly she's being punished. Echo was Don't too much, okay. Really, this is like this is cruel and unusual punishment. Really, this is like this is cruel and unusual punishment. Echo was thereafter never able to speak unless it was to repeat the last few words of those she heard. Echo had deceived using gossip. I guess that was her crime. She would be condemned to be only that from then on.

Speaker 1 1:12:59

Meanwhile Echo spied Narcissus, separated from his hunting companions, and she became immediately infatuated, following him and waiting for him to speak so her feelings might be heard. Narcissus sensed he was being followed and shouted who's there? Echo repeated who's there. While this interaction continued, echo came close enough so that she was revealed and attempted to embrace him. Horrified, he stepped back and told her to keep her chains. Don't know what that means exactly. Heartbroken echo wasted away, losing her body amidst lonely glens until nothing of her but chaste verbal ability remained.

Speaker 1 1:13:38

Nemesis, the goddess of revenge, heard the pleas of a young man, eminius, fallen for Narcissus, but was ignored and cursed him. Nemesis listened, proclaiming that Narcissus would never be able to be loved by the one he fell in love with. After spurning Echo and the young man, narcissus became thirsty. He found a pool of water that no animal had ever approached. Leaning down to drink, narcissus saw his reflection had ever approached. Leaning down to drink, narcissus saw his reflection, which he found as beautiful as a marble statue. Not realizing it was his own reflection, narcissus fell deeply in love with it. Thus both Teresia's prophecy and Nemesis's curse came true in the same instance. Unable to leave the allure of this image, narcissus eventually realized that his love could not be reciprocated and he melted away from the fire of passion burning inside of him, eventually turning into a golden white flower, now known as the Narcissus or the Daffodil Bam.

Speaker 1 1:14:38

Anything at all come to mind in terms of interpreting that, for you know the human condition in general. I have an opinion. When you take all the characters of you name it a dream or a myth as aspects of your own psyche. You know I have an opinion that's a little bit different than the academic one on this poem, because I see all the characters as aspects of a single psyche. Anyway, anything thoughts come to mind on the symbolism of that, stuart or Virginia, either way, yeah, I, personality wise both, you know.

Speaker 2 1:15:10

Looking at the interaction between Narcissus and that, he wouldn't give that. I mean I think in the story it talks about him telling her that she's got no chance, basically, but she's unable to initially accept that but then eventually, as it dawns in, she wastes away. So you've got this thing that narcissists will at their core. They really are repelling everybody. They don't get close to anybody and they don't really even even when they do express love or affection or whatever. It's not out of the place that we normally understand.

Speaker 1 1:16:15

It's got an end game.

Speaker 2 1:16:17

Yes, it's basically got a. It's not love for love's sake, it's love because it'll get me something. And I think in this you know, in this, this particular story narcissists is a. That is just. It just characterizes so much the approach of the narcissist that they've they.

Understanding Narcissistic Manipulation Tactics and Abuse

Speaker 2 1:16:40

They are self self-loathing in many cases. Well, they all have a deep self-hatred for themselves and for other people, so they are high in control and will dictate what happens. The other person has no say in what happens, even though they might think they do. The narcissist is brilliant at extracting the life from the other person, about converting the person's life into having no purpose. So they themselves, the victim withers into a shadow of their former self. But then this whole thing of looking at himself in the mirror I find quite ironic, because the whole thing with narcissists is that although they project this image of perfection and idealism you know, these grandiose aims and everything else that's exactly who they're not. It's almost that what they're seeing in the reflection is is what it's how they see themselves. But they can't get at that. You know what I mean. So he can't get himself in that reflection.

Speaker 1 1:17:58

He can't we used to call it just deep insecurity?

Speaker 2 1:18:01

right, it's exactly yeah yeah, crippling insecurity, I think think Dr Romani calls it.

Speaker 1 1:18:09

But here I failed to say this earlier and I want to kind of slip it in. When I was talking about egocentrism, I do think once you differentiate from the mother and you realize as Andrea said remember that Virginia you realize you're two separate entities. But once you differentiate from the mother, I think we're all egocentric. It's me, me, me, children are famous for that. But you learn to live in the world and hopefully your mother teaches you empathy and identification. But I wanted to ask a while ago is it possible and I think you hinted that it was that a narcissist can have theoretical empathy or compassion? They can be aware of how their actions affect others emotionally or, you know, literally, but then it's a choice not to give that any credence or value and that just sounds evil. I mean, is it possible for a narcissist to have empathy at all and still choose not to honor it and still choose to manipulate for their own purposes? To what degree isn't narcissists capable of empathy?

Speaker 3 1:19:14

Are you asking can a narcissist basically be treated? Is essentially what you're asking.

Speaker 1 1:19:19

No, no. I just heard over and over again that I mean that's almost the definition of narcissism is to lack empathy. But I thought also I heard in there that you can still be aware of another's feelings and choose to manipulate and gaslight and apply all your tactics. So that tells me I just don't believe people are born bad seeds with no capacity for empathy. I think it's always a choice to forego that empathy and that might be an ethical or a moral issue.

Speaker 3 1:19:51

Well, and that's what I say, that's kind of where I'd say it's kind of asking that question can it be treated?

Speaker 1 1:19:56

Can a?

Speaker 3 1:19:56

personality disorder be treated, which is where this would fall under clinical terms, and the answer is yes. Is it difficult to treat? Absolutely, but can they learn empathy? Can they choose? Can they fall back into the old patterns absolutely, or can they choose to continually work to learn how to empathize and how do you, how do you teach humanity? It's difficult, it's very difficult. They're probably one of the most difficult personalities disorders to work with. For that, reason. It's difficult.

Speaker 1 1:20:33

Wow, well, in my mind, of course, serial killers have come up right. Oh, he was always a loner. He did bury that puppy and then mow over it with a lawnmower. Yeah, thinking back, you know, but also cult leaders come to mind.

Speaker 2 1:21:00

Are cult leaders narcissists with the sadistic slant, or is cult is a narcissistic society? You have a boss, you have someone who calls the shots and the rest, like sheep, follow.

Speaker 1 1:21:17

And you get to have sex with all of them too. That's the best part.

Speaker 2 1:21:20

Well, yeah, that's another thing. For narcissists, there are three things they love status, sex and stuff.

Speaker 1 1:21:30

Oh, like material possessions.

Speaker 2 1:21:32

One of the yeah, one of the things of narcissism is sexual prowess. You know it's something they pride themselves in, but it's again, it's a myth.

Speaker 1 1:21:47

It's self-perpetuating, because I think if you find yourself able to procure let's say you're good-looking and you find yourself able to procure by indulging that and getting your validation from that the more you do it, the more you're cementing it.

Speaker 2 1:22:01

Yeah, it does. The problem is that, as with all these things, we're not talking about an infinite relationship. The narcissistic abuse cycle starts off with everything's rosy, everything is perfect, you're the best partner for me, usually feeling obligated in some way because the narcissist has been so generous. Then the narcissist flips it on its head and the person starts to dislike the person and devalue the person for exactly the things that previously they've said they love about them, and they will then go back to giving a little bit more love and then taking it away again. This is that intermittent reinforcement where they give you a high, then give you a low, which in itself is addictive.

Speaker 1 1:22:53

It's the you know it really is a dopamine cycle. Well, it sounds like a little bit the, the. I keep wanting to say empath. But the victim of the narcissist gets their own validation by keeping their gaze or getting positive encouragement.

Speaker 2 1:23:06

Not really. In a proper relationship, the validation from the other person is genuine. So if you go into a relationship with somebody, the relationship depends on two people and it depends on input and take from both. With a narcissistic relationship, there is no give from the narcissist. They just project this image to the victim. Um, very cleverly, because this, this whole love bombing thing.

Speaker 2 1:23:40

What they will do, for example, is they'll get to know you. They'll ask loads and loads and loads of questions so they quickly profile you. What, what makes you tick? What is your, what's your trigger? What is it that they can pull away to do, you know, to dismantle you? What can they give to make you feel valued? They store all this away and then they basically mirror it back. So you know, someone doesn't go into a relationship thinking, oh, I'll go and look for someone. They might be abusive and they might actually be totally insincere. When you meet somebody and they give back what you do, you initially interpret that as love. The problem with the narcissist is that that's so perfect that the victim gets bound in very quickly. But also what the narcissist does is they up the pace of everything. So the time from meeting to marriage can be as short as two or three months.

Speaker 1 1:24:38

Is that because they don't want to be found out, or why? Well, it's about getting people under their power.

Speaker 2 1:24:42

Why it's all about getting people under their power. You know the narcissist is solely after validation from that other person. Once they've got them, if you like, legally attached or emotionally attached, then they're there at the narcissist's bidding and so that person will thought you know they'll the, not the. The narcissist has this way of making the person give and give and give, and then they devalue them in such a way that the person, that the victim, then thinks gosh, what, what have I done wrong?

Speaker 1 1:25:21

and that's why I mentioned that there must be some dopamine going on. When they do get the validation from the narcissist, when they get the attention of the narcissist, you know they rely on that. They, you know it's like I didn't want to be crude, but I think we've all experienced degrees of this. I mean, I went on one date. I've never been stuck in a narcissistic relationship, but I've certainly seen it in action, you know, on a scale, like we've said. But it's like a pimp knows to slap the prostitute and then kiss her within 30 seconds, like you want to keep them addicted to the love. But do you know what I mean? Let them know there are rules.

Speaker 2 1:26:02

Yeah, narcissism is pimping.

Speaker 1 1:26:04

Right, absolutely, that's what.

Speaker 2 1:26:06

I was hearing.

Speaker 2 1:26:08

It is the perfect picture, you know punish, reward, keep them tied in, keep them locked in, because once you've got a dedicated source of supply or a dedicated source of validation, it means you, you know, not work so hard to go anywhere else. The trouble is that the narcissist, because they do everything fast, they also get over relationships quickly and they can easily get bored very quickly. You know, it starts off as rosy, but very soon the narcissist is feeling um disenchanted with it all. So multiple parallel relationships is quite common, even within a narcissistic marriage. The narcissist will very often have at least one, if not more, partners on the go at the same time, because that's what they're entitled to.

Speaker 3 1:27:03

You have to remember.

Speaker 2 1:27:04

They're driven by this sense of entitlement where everybody's there to serve them and therefore it doesn't matter what they want, they'll get it.

Speaker 1 1:27:13

You know Virginia mentioned rehabilitation in so many words, you know. Are they redeemable? Is there rehabilitation? Do you mind telling our listeners about how you worked with your friend? Not in a clinical context. From what I understand, it seemed like you were just there for her as a friend. But what did the answer turn out to be in that case?

Speaker 2 1:27:33

Most of my work, you know, when you put the mistakes to one side and the lessons I learned from those mistakes. My most effective work and most of my work ended up being listening, so that I could then reflect back what was happening, so that I could allow my friend to actually appreciate themselves what was happening, because when we started it was so alien to them. They just kept using terms like I'm going mad, I'm a horrible person, I'm full of vengeance, I feel hateful, I don't know what's going on, and this was the kind of level of confusion she'd got was happening and actually validating her thoughts. Because narcissists will invalidate the victim's thoughts continually as a means of keeping them under control, because it makes them, makes the victim think they're mad and therefore have no agency on their own and therefore they you know they look to the narcissist for direction and for help and and for advice. But actually part of supporting people is is to enable them to find their own voice and their own ability to realize that they can think and also realize they can come up with, you know, their own solutions. They don't have to depend on other people.

Speaker 2 1:29:04

But that's a very, very slow process and so at the beginning the input is very much in my case was, you know there was a divorce to go through, so it was the practical, physical things that could help filling in the forms, um, helping them in the solicitor, etc. You know, listening to what the solicitor was saying and then relaying it back afterwards, for example, because one of the things when you're under stress is that you, your ability to understand, is non-existent. You're in fright, you know fright and flight mode most of the time, and it's also undermines, actually erodes your memory. So you've got rubbish memory, you've got no ability to think.

Speaker 1 1:29:53

Problem solving is kind of non-existent when you're in crisis mode right.

Speaker 2 1:29:57

Yeah. So a lot of my role was the problem solving. In simple, this is what we need. You know, this is what we need to do here when it was a practical thing. But what I learned very quickly was that, when it came to things which involved her making a decision for herself and had a sort of an emotional dimension to it, it was actually really important that she made those decisions, because there were times, for example, when I could see the way she needed to go and I sort of did the you know the classic male thing, which is I'm going to fix this Right. Right, that is the ultimate disaster in this situation, because what then happened is she interpreted my actions as being narcissistic so what I was doing by saying this is what you need to do.

Speaker 2 1:30:57

All I was doing was simply imitating what her husband had been saying to her for 15 years. Wow, and she then actually reacted.

Speaker 1 1:31:04

At least she recognized it. That's it's good. That's a step that she recognizes that you know. But I think whenever we're trying to serve or be of service, you know, I think just being there, like you said, and handling the logistics, that probably goes further than giving advice, right.

Speaker 2 1:31:20

Yeah, and it's the being. You know it's an old adage. I'm sure you've come across it many times, but you know we've got two ears and one mouth. Use them in that proportion.

Speaker 1 1:31:39

Although, if you're dealing with a victim of narcissism, put some duct tape over your mouth to prevent you. On the reflex, it sounds like you fed back to her a little bit, you know, just to make her aware of her responsibility, and feedback is, you know, I think, got to be helpful.

Speaker 2 1:31:50

Yeah, and the biggest lesson I learned is there's no exact science to it and it's about, you know, as a victim sorry, I'm sorry as a supporter of a victim, I'm sorry as a supporter of a victim you have to be as far away from narcissistic response as you can be so that when they ask you questions, when they accuse you of things, when they, you know, when they they're bewildered or frustrated, that you don't immediately internalize that, take it on as personal responsibility and and lash out.

Navigating Narcissistic Relationships

Speaker 2 1:32:28

You know, because a lot of what they're doing is, as you've said, processing stuff, which is difficult, um, and it's costly for them, because they're having to refit, you know, refill emotions that they've felt before. They're having to remember things for the sake of the divorce and things that have done, and then things will begin to fall into place and then, when they realize that it falls into place, um, you know, it becomes a real, a really painful thing for them. In fact, the lady who I helped, um, when she was younger, she lost two children, one before he was born, but she lost him through a road accident, and the other one, her daughter, was 18 months old, playing in a child's play area and a van reversed over the top of her without realizing she was there Now. This was back in the late 60s.

Speaker 1 1:33:27

Do you think, though, that somehow set the stage, emotionally, for her to fall victim to a narcissistic relationship? What sets one up do you know what I mean to be the perfect victim?

Speaker 2 1:33:38

Victims of narcissists are genuine 95% of the time. Statistically I might not be accurate there, but the majority of the time victims of reason they fall foul of, it is this whole mask thing that the narcissist projects to them.

Speaker 1 1:34:11

You know, and, and they but I guess my question is how can we protect ourselves from finding ourselves in a narcissistic relationship? If it can happen to anyone you know, maybe we could talk about how do you protect yourself from it know.

Speaker 2 1:34:29

Maybe we could talk about how do you protect yourself from it. Narcissists have a. It depends on situation. So, for example, if you're in a, if you meet someone through a social setting or a work setting, people who are narcissistic by their characteristics impact others. So there are signs that you can see within groups of people and also, if you are aware of people that they interact with, you can always just say to these people you know out of earshot or whatever, how have you found this person? Because, however, how have you found this person? Because Simon Sinek, who's a big one on I don't know if you come across him. He's brilliant on relationships and on the whole thing of finding your reason and stuff.

Speaker 1 1:35:27

But you know he says, if you want to find the narcissist, the easiest thing is ask a team for the biggest asshole in the room and they'll point to it straight away. So looking for the red flags, you know part of its awareness culturally, we can become aware.

Speaker 2 1:35:33

And then looking for the red flags yes, and if you've got, if you are in a position to be able to do that with, you know, from a community, from a community of people, you're in a very privileged position because a lot of these things, particularly with the online dating, just as with the social media, you know that's a narcissist's gold mine because they can, they can project the false image, they can put the perfect photos, they can give the right background, they can find out from the you partner's biog what they like and what they don't like, play to it and hook the victim. So that's another. I can't say that it's been proven research-wise because I don't know. But I think that's one of the other dangers of the technology age of not doing the groundwork relationships-wise, not understanding the markers and the signals you know, and the red flags and the danger signs many documentaries about.

Speaker 1 1:36:48

You know whether it's the sperm donor that has 500 children. I don't know if you've seen that one, or just yeah, serial online daters that absolutely catfish and then victimize.

Speaker 2 1:36:54

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:36:56

Yeah, I think Netflix has a corner on that market, but yeah, it is tricky. It sounds like, though, because the terminology is so muddled and the waters are so muddied in a way, and I have this opinion that, you know, we can all have our checklist of what we're looking for in a partner, and when we begin dating, we can stalk them to the degree we want. We can check in with their friends and try, you know, but that's actually counterproductive, you know. I mean, manifestation circles will say if you want a partner, why do you have a single bed? Get a double bed? If you want Santa Claus to come, you put the stocking out.

Speaker 1 1:37:32

So, when you have that checklist, I just have the opinion that I'm grateful for anything that comes along. I'm grateful for anyone, and it's probably a problem, but anyone that gives me a second glance, I'm grateful for it, and so the checklist is a way of, for some people, protecting themselves from the opportunities right in front of them. So how would you say you strike that balance? Let's assume society is becoming, even with all the muddied waters and the misuse of the terms, becoming a little more educated on this front, and we know what to look out for now. How do you parse between shortening that list of qualifications, lest you miss out on life's opportunities, and being vigilant?

Speaker 2 1:38:11

It's a difficult one, isn't it? That's why I asked, I wouldn't thank God.

Speaker 1 1:38:16

I'm not out there online dating.

Speaker 2 1:38:19

You're dealing with emotions. Um, I think with probably the best, if you like, general rule is that if you are in a relationship and, for any reason, you are feeling uncomfortable, then at least take a step back and analyze, as I say, one of the things narcissists do give themselves away by doing everything fast, over the top. You know it's all exaggerated, it's all. The gifts are extravagant, the holidays are extravagant, the praise is extravagant. If you're getting stuff which is making you feel uncomfortable in your gut, then take a step back and just think about it.

Speaker 1 1:39:14

That's a good policy in life. Trust your gut.

Speaker 2 1:39:20

Yeah, to the people who are involved in in counseling. One of the things they mention a lot to victims is what does it feel like? Or what did it feel like? Because that you know. If you, if you're sensing that it's too good to be true or that your gut's uncomfortable, then there's a pretty good reason for that happening. It's there's something subconsciously that you've picked up, that you've has bypassed your thinking center, but it's signaling all the alarms to your brain. You know to take a step back.

Speaker 2 1:39:54

So I think narcissists like deep commitment quickly. If you take a relationship, no matter where you come from, if you are taking a relationship slowly and methodically the nurse if you find the other person trying to rush you and hurry you up and get you into deep commitments and doing things for you that to try and make you feel obligated to them, you know, take a step back or just walk away. Because those are, those are serious red flags that if you, if you wait too long because of the way they they operate, you can get hooked in. You can, you can feel obliged to be with them and do what they say, you know, in a very, very short period of time well, virginia, do you have anything to say on the clinical front?

Speaker 1 1:40:48

it's gone over an hour and a half and I do think we've just scratched the surface. I think we need to do part two yeah, I was just.

Speaker 3 1:40:55

I was just going to make one add one thing to what stewart just said. Um on, on the counseling side and I'm not the one who coined this, I've actually heard this from a few people but but what I hear said a lot is John Deloney. He's a PhD and he always says behavior is a language. He's not the only one who so. In counseling we focus highly on nonverbal cues because you actually are told more there than in what's actually being contextually said.

Speaker 1 1:41:36

Yeah. So learning these, not just the red flags, but learning the nuances of nonverbal communication. I don't want to make it about me and we are coming to a close, and I don't want to make it about me and we are coming to a close, but I, I just, and I don't have any answers clearly. But I'm sitting here going, either everybody I've ever dated is a narcissist. I really am thinking, oh my God, I've dated a number of narcissists. It's not just that one bad date that I mentioned. I'm thinking maybe low level narcissism, but I will say, absolutely I was blindsided. I would never invest in a relationship if it didn't feel mutual. It feels a hundred percent mutual. So, because you know they all ended, I was sitting here going, wow, I'm going to really put some thought into whether they were clinical narcissists or if it's just that's life. That's just my take on it. Like some of it's like Hmm, sounds like, sounds like life to me, but clinical it's very real the clinical diagnosis is very real and I am now gonna I'll get back to you.

Speaker 1 1:42:30

Maybe next episode I'll. I'll get back to you on whether everybody ever dated is a narcissist or not yeah, I just think for your peace of mind.

Speaker 2 1:42:41

one thing that has been noticed is that if you have been susceptible to a narcissist in one relationship, then there is a chance that you will be targeted by others Of course.

Speaker 1 1:42:57

That's like molestation sets you up for more right.

Speaker 2 1:43:01

Yeah, yeah, but it's just I guess, if nothing else, just a takeaway message is you know, am I a good father for a narcissist? If so, why? And if I am, what can I do to protect myself against those sorts of people? But my friend, experienced more than once, was her ex because she was forced to live in the same house as her husband whilst the divorce was going on, because he had all the finances in his name and wouldn't give her anything. She had to live under the same roof and what he would do is he would know what buttons to press until she snapped what buttons to press until she snapped.

Speaker 2 1:43:46

And then, when she snapped, he was straight to the police and the police were investigating her for, you know, abuse for assault and whatever. Fortunately he did it too often and also we pointed out to the police what was happening in reality. He would continually ask questions that caused her to doubt her you know her memory or twist the facts that she would be thinking I'm sure it wasn't like that and eventually he would just keep doing that until she realized what was happening or until she realized that, yes, she was right and he was just talking a load of rubbish.

Speaker 1 1:44:32

Some terms have come up like blaming the victim and gaslighting, and I do think some of this is human nature. You know, there's a sociological principle that says if you've wronged somebody or betrayed them, you still have to sleep at night and therefore frame yourself as a decent person. So that is what blaming the victim arises out of is oh well, they deserved it. And you kind of create that narrative that you know you're beyond contempt and that they deserved it and so the next time you betray them you're going to dig your heels even more in blame. So some of it is human nature. It just seems like, when it's in the extreme, what I will say.

Speaker 1 1:45:10

You know, I came into this saying the judgmental part of me. When I hear this friend that I mentioned cry narcissist over and over again, I very much the judgmental part of me, the less compassionate part of me, has said look for your responsibility in this. It takes two to tango. Now I'm just trying to be vulnerable and saying I actually see how it could happen because I had so many boundaries. I'm right, you know me, virginia. I'm nothing but good judgment. I identify and we talk about narratives and the stories we tell ourselves. I've traditionally identified as a good judge of character, I do trust my gut, but more than that principle has been my downfall. Having those boundaries separating emotional experiences from policy. That's my entire adult life and yet I fell victim to it and I'm sitting there looking back going. They were so charming, you know, and so it could. I think it can happen to anybody and that maybe that's good for me and opening up my compassion and suspending my judgment.

Speaker 3 1:46:08

Yeah, we all have blind areas. That's just part of human nature too.

Speaker 1 1:46:13

Yeah.

Speaker 3 1:46:13

I guess, if it repeats.

Speaker 1 1:46:14

You pay attention. If it's a repeated pattern.

Speaker 2 1:46:16

I would think, said partway through her experience to her solicitor. She said if I wrote down my story as it happens and submit it to hollywood, it would be rejected, being too far fit, too far fetched well, life is stranger than fiction.

Speaker 1 1:46:43

I think all of us when we put pen to paper right in in the spirit of our podcasts yeah, I think that when, when you're talking about narcissists, you're talking about a quantum leap different.

Speaker 2 1:46:53

You're not talking about. You're not talking about the odd anomaly or the odd, the odd occasion. You know the a narcissistic relationship is so dysfunctional that those outside can't see it and those inside will commit suicide to get out of it. That's the disparity between the two faces of it the public face, which is the altruistic charmer, and the reality, which is the abuser and and cold yeah, well, gregarious comes to mind, this guy, you know.

Speaker 1 1:47:32

I mean he held court.

Speaker 2 1:47:33

Uh, just gregarious and it's yeah it's hard to reckon yeah charming and charisma are two things that they always say. If you find someone who's charming and charming and high charisma and also can can hold a you know, dominate a room, then you've got three pretty good ingredients for a narcissist well, yeah, and thankfully I think I not only recognize the red flags now, but I actually have a knee-jerk reaction to you know.

Navigating Narcissism in Everyday Life

Speaker 1 1:48:03

I mean, if it's just a waitress, it's like, why do you need the waitress to like you? You can see it a mile away when somebody absolutely needs everyone in the room to to like them and uh, it's a competition. You know, life's not a competition. So now I'm thinking of all my friends that are narcissists anyway. Uh, I do think we need to bring it to a close, cause it's been an hour and a half. So, virginia, do you have any final questions?

Speaker 3 1:48:27

No, I think we've really have covered the gambit, to be honest.

Speaker 1 1:48:31

Oh, I think we've covered a lot, but I think we've scratched the tip of an iceberg. I want to have you back on. I feel like it's the tip of an iceberg, but I would, stuart. Then I would say to you do you feel robbed? Is there anything you really had hoped to impart? You were going to put the link, obviously, to your book. We'll put that in the episode description, but if things didn't go the direction you expected, is there anything you would really love to impart in our closing minutes?

Speaker 2 1:48:55

I. I think that one of the take-home strengths of this interview is that it illustrates how multifaceted narcissism is, how it impacts us all in so many different areas and in so many different ways that actually trying to get your head even around the basics is, you know, it's a, it's kind of a. It can be an uncharted territory. Really, it can be like drop me off in the middle of the sierra nevada and say, okay, get yourself out. You know I'd be dead within a couple of days. But that it really illustrates why I tried to write the book in the way that I did, because it's it takes, you know, I've just tried to take people through the story with me from beginning to end and put into that not just my personal experience, but I've done the research behind it, which is, you know, these are, this is what I noticed and this is what the experts and this is what current best opinion um, you know and best information has to say about how to deal with that. So it's uh, it's definitely not a self-help book as such, but it's uh, it's written for anybody who would want to just delve deeper into narcissism, and I've tried to make it structured.

Speaker 2 1:50:33

Any jargon is explained as it goes along. So it's not one of those books. I'm a big believer in not using jargon, because I think jargon is a separates and and divides rather than unites, and whilst it's helpful for those in the know, you know people need to understand the implications, not just the words. So the the words are in there, they're defined and the implications are in there as well, along with what I hope are a lot of you know, just practical ways to deal with them. Deal with a narcissist in everyday life, at work, in the family, you know, in the community, that kind of thing, and if you want to get away from them, ways that you can do that and ways to sort of start rebuilding your life.

Speaker 1 1:51:26

Beautiful. Yeah, it sounds great. I will be reading, especially after this conversation. I think I should read it. Yeah, I love it, and it sounds a little bit because we've been talking about pop psychology, so that's a form of jargon, but then so is clinical terminology, so it does sound like it's for everybody, and we all do need to learn how to deal with narcissists in life, like you said, whether it's on the job or in a not even a romantic relationship, a friendship. Yeah, I think it sounds like it's valuable to everybody.

Speaker 2 1:51:56

It's really about raising awareness. If you don't know the problems there, you can't deal with it, and that's what not you know narcissists. I think one of my quotes from the book is that our ignorance is a narcissist's kingdom. It's that kind of thing where the less people know about them, the longer they can stay hidden. So you know, this is really. It's not. It's not written as a solve it all book. What it is is saying look, these people exist, they're around us every day. This is what they look like, this is what they can do and, if nothing else, it makes you more aware so that you can protect yourself, you know, from these sorts of encounters that can be life changing and life ending.

Speaker 1 1:52:46

Yeah, my takeaway is trust your gut. And you know, on this podcast we've talked about cycles and it's like how many times can you tell yourself trust your gut. You know those that are betray, you will gaslight you and it always comes back to just trusting your gut. So that's my takeaway. But also maybe you know I again I'm putting myself out there as the guinea pig, but I think you both probably heard me say it's like but why would I turn my back on what seems like a gift that's dropped in your path? So you gotta you do have to have standards. I tend to think of. A long list of qualifications for a partner is limiting, but you know, I think we all know for ourselves where we're actually sparing ourselves needless drama, right, and maybe trusting the gut as well. That's my takeaway personally.

Speaker 2 1:53:42

I think it's just taking knowledge and making it wisdom.

Speaker 1 1:53:46

Through experience, like applying the knowledge with life experience. Well, thank you so much. I know there's more and I will be reading the book, but hopefully you'll be willing to come on for a second time and we'll go on a different tangent next time.

Speaker 2 1:54:02

Yes, indeed, and hopefully, when they put the two five-hour podcasts together, they'll have a comprehensive length, breadth and depth of narcissism and how to handle it.

Speaker 1 1:54:15

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for sharing and to our listeners, remember, life is story and we can get our hands in the clay individually and collectively. We can tell a new story. See you next time.