Art as Crusade with Magician and Actor Rob Zabrecky

In this episode we sit down with Dominick's lifelong friend, Rob Zabrecky,  a true renaissance man in the world of art and entertainment. He  shares his  journey from fronting the iconic band, Possum Dixon in the nineties, through his decades-long love affair with magic and the acting that became a natural extension of all that came before. As a multi-media artist, Rob knows well the traditions, conventions and trappings of each storytelling mode, as well as the role of concept in the creative process. Rob details his evolution from the rock scene to becoming a celebrated magician at the Magic Castle's Houdini Séance Room, as well as the decade-long venture of documenting his  his unique career path by penning his memoir, "Strange Cures," which paints a vivid picture of the Los Angeles of the '70s through the '90s. Rob's narrative is a testament to the profound impact of embracing one's own history and sharing it with the world. 

BIO: There’s simply no other entertainer like Rob Zabrecky. Through a wide range of artistic work that spans acting, magic, comedy, writing, and music, Zabrecky has established himself globally as an original entertainer. His magic is designed for those who don’t realize they love magic. Recognized for his efforts, Zabrecky has received six awards by the Academy of Magical Arts at the Magic Castle. His one-man variety show, The Zabrecky Hour, has been presented on stages worldwide, to critical acclaim. In film, he’s best known for roles in A Ghost Story, Lost River, and Decay. In television, he’s appeared in Lady Dynamite, GLOW, Comedy Bang! Bang! and the CBS biopic, Strange Angel. He's the author of acclaimed memoir, 'Strange Cures,' which chronicles his story of self-discovery, success, failure, and r

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Transcript

Rob Zabrecki

Speaker 1 0:45

Rob Zabrecki is one of LA's most interesting natives. La Weekly. There's simply no other entertainer like Rob Zabrecki. Through a wide range of artistic work that spans acting, magic, comedy, writing and music, zabrecki has established himself globally as an original entertainer. Zabrecki's magic is designed for those who don't realize. They love magic, and that would be me until I discovered his act. His blackly comedic and bizarre magic persona transcends the medium into something between performance, art and transformative comedy. It's very well put. I agree 100% with that.

Speaker 1 1:22

Recognized for his efforts, zabrecki has received six awards by the Academy of Magical Arts at the Magic Castle, where for the past 15 years, he has presented seances inside the club's coveted Houdini Seance Room. His one-man comedy, magic and variety show, the Zabrecki Hour, has been presented on stages worldwide to critical acclaim. In film, he's best known for his roles in A Ghost Story, lost River and Decay. In television, he's appeared in guest and co-starring roles in Lady Dynamite, glow Comedy, bang Bang, the CBS biopic series Strange Angel based on the life of rocket scientist Jack Parsons, and many others.

Speaker 1 2:03

He is the author of the acclaimed memoir Strange Cures, which chronicles his story of self-discovery, success, failure and reinvention amid the Los Angeles landscape during the 70s through 90s. The LA Times praised the book as a punk poem to a forgotten Los Angeles and musician. Jane Wydland of the Go-Go's dubbed it a 1980s San Fernando Valley time machine. Zabrecki's career began as a musician while fronting as lead singer and bassist for the Los Angeles group Possum Dixon, who released three albums on Interscope Records during the 1990s. And then I added this to the bio because I kind of liked the wording. I'm a big fan from way back of Possum Dixon and it says from a review Possum Dixon say they're eclectic Influences from ska to early punk, surf, jangly guitar rock and garage bands. All right, welcome Rob Zabrecki.

Speaker 2 3:01

Nicholas. It is great, dominic boy, there's so much history. I go. Who am I talking to? It is great to be here, regardless of how you're going to identify it, or you might call me robbie zabrecki, and that's I was gonna say just don't call me late for dinner.

Speaker 1 3:19

Okay, I did have that conversation in my head. Like can I say, robbie?

Speaker 2 3:23

and the answer is yes, I think well, we, we can. Let's, let's, let's dive in.

Speaker 1 3:28

i's going to happen well with a name like Dominic. Do you remember Mr Bigby at Luther? I'll never forget him.

Speaker 1 3:34

Yeah, he called me Dom. He was the only one that's ever called me Dom and I didn't correct him. It's kind of refreshing, but Blatchford is the only one that still calls me Nicky to this day. Right, it makes sense. Yes, but yeah, it's kind of refreshing. It reminds you of who you used to be. Yes, okay, so clearly for the listeners, there's some history here, dating back, I would say, to 1980. Seventh grade was 80, 81. Correct.

Speaker 2 4:02

Yep yes.

Speaker 1 4:03

Yep. So yeah, a lot of history, and that's a little bit of a caveat we will be lapsing into you had to be there stories or maybe some inside jokes, but Virginia is going to get us back on track and make sure we fill in any gaps. Just for context. But before we get off in those weeds, I do want to ask you the real question. We've been asking all of our guests in the new season and, as I was saying in the green room, we might even create a little highlights reel because, virginia, I think you'd agree, we've had some amazing universal responses that just resonate. But then the ways people put it, the form it takes, is fascinating. You know, everybody expresses it in a slightly different way. So the real question is basically do you have any feelings about and if you do, please share them with us the role of storytelling and culture? And then the part B is has that role evolved over time?

Speaker 2 5:03

Yeah, let's take both of those. But you know, I think if you're a creative person, your crusade or your goal in life is going to be to share your story, your point of view, whether that's in whatever medium you're working in. And for me, it's been something that's been, you know, I've been pursuing since I was 15, 16 years old, first as a musician, then as a magician, which led to acting. So for me, it's my lifeline. I mean, it's what that's how I connect with the world is through storytelling, um, and, and by storytelling you know that that can really mean so many different things when you work in different mediums.

Speaker 2 5:45

If I'm performing a magic trick to a piece of music, I can. If I, if I do it right, I can convey a feeling of happiness, sadness, fear, anger, love. Um, you know, you can. You can do those things without having to. It doesn't have to be so apparent, uh, all the time.

Speaker 1 6:03

If you can, if you're good at what you do, you can do it through dance, you can do it through a squiggle, an illustration um you know if you're a comedian, through a look, a one line, a joke, you know yeah, well, I think that's one of our premises and it does come up a lot with our guests is that you kind of can't parse between creative expression and storytelling right. Expressing yourself creatively is telling your story and that's why we have a podcast. It's so vast. But you know, any generalizations you can make about the creative process or creative expression in general can also be set of story. So I do want to press you a little bit on that, because I have noticed some of the guests do talk about it's not so much micro and macro, but it's like the catharsis that the artist undergoes through the creative process is one thing, but then, by extension, it does have an outcome with the macro, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 6:59

So do you concern yourself with the patron? Or in entertainment I guess it would be the audience or the listenership? What is the outcome for the collective? If that makes sense, I understand how it serves you. It is just interesting. Some of our more self-absorbed writers will just go on and on about how it serves them as therapy. But the question was how does it affect culture? Right?

Speaker 2 7:21

It's a great question and it's one that I've been obsessed with when studying the work of others and just talking with other artists, because first, I think, if you're, the goal should be creating something for yourself, that's, that's gratifying. So, for example, I don't know seven, eight years ago, I had um regret about something and I thought you know what I'm gonna put. I need to write a piece about regret. I don't, I don't know where, I don't know how, I don't know what's going to be, in what format this is going to come out. I just wasn't sure and it ended up being a magic trick where I was performing a show that would kind of produce a spool of thread and pull off a big chunk of it and talk about these regrets.

Speaker 2 8:06

Now, the regrets were all comedic and this was for an adult audience, and they were metaphorically. They weren't the actual regrets that I had, but I was able to sort of mask them in a way that was appealing to an audience, because I knew that, at the end of the day, the audience has to connect with us, they have to be empathetic to it, and if you're good, if you can hold your weight as a writer, you can find a way to kind of speak to an audience but also speak to your truth, because I don't think the audience really wanted to know what my real regret was, nor did I feel like really going into that. It almost became irrelevant but it became a standout piece in my longer show. The Zabrecki Hour came a standout piece in my longer show, the Zabrecki Hour, and I kind of follow it with. When I finish restoring this string which magically happens I walk out into the audience and I find a random spectator and I hand them the same string and I say now it's your turn.

The Art of Creative Expression

Speaker 2 9:03

And then I gesture them to the stage and then, very awkwardly, they walk on the stage having no idea that they're going to be invited up there and suddenly the spotlight's up there and they're holding this piece of string. There's no way they can do what I did, and it ranges from people going well, I regret coming to this and this one's they'll dive into. I, I regret, you know, break up with my boyfriend, oh boy, and I regret, I, I regret I shouldn't have left that job before I got the other one. So anyway, the point is, I found levity and it turned. So I think it's important to rewrite, just to kind of you always write for yourself first and then you go.

Speaker 2 9:45

how is this going to connect? What does this piece say about me? And then the second question is what does this say about life, the human experience and I think that's the fascinating part where people can sort of take something and see your version of whatever that is and connect with it, and that's the thing of beauty. When that happens, I feel like I've done my job.

Speaker 1 10:07

Absolutely Well. What comes to mind for me is that there's a delayed gratification. I call it the completion of the circuit, right? So when you paint a painting, you know the patron's going to get, whatever it is, their epiphany, their catharsis, their conceptual, their paradigm shift, whatever that is, they're going to get it. But you're not there to feel the completion of the circuit. Theater is so immediate, right, that you feel the energy and it feels like the circuit is complete in the moment. So I love how you explained that. Where it's literally, you're, I think, trying to strive for the universal without making it so personal that you lose people, but then you immediately pass the baton, you pass the string to them, and does that make sense? It feels more immediate 100%.

Speaker 2 10:48

Well, the live performance is ephemeral, so when? I do that I get up there and and I, you know, hopefully I do my job and I say the words clearly and they they sound like I'm just making them up for the first time and I find somebody who's going to come on stage and they're going to have some funny moment and then that's gone. Unlike a painting that's going to to or a drawing or any you know the visual arts that will live on a wall or say live in the form of a sculpture where people can look at them forever In live performance.

Speaker 2 11:24

that shows over and you've got to go do that again.

Speaker 1 11:28

I love it. Yeah, the ephemeral. I love that word Because I've always had this premise that, like it's been disproven actually in my life. But I used to say peak experiences can't be recorded, right Like epiphanies just can't be recorded. So maybe they're more powerful when they're ephemeral, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 11:49

Definitely, I mean, and the goal is that you're always trying to do it a little bit better than you did the time before to achieve that high or whatever it is that you're. You know whatever that feeling is when you have a performance and it's successful. But yeah, the visual arts are so different because you can labor over something, um, and then it can sort of live on the final piece can. You can spend as much time as as you need to. You know, even that's true with a book. I think you know other other art forms where you can really spend time and tinker with things and go okay, here it is, and then that that movie or or that book or or that you know that that piece of visual art is going to live on forever.

Speaker 1 12:36

And there it is, you know, yep. Well, that leads me a little bit to and we're going to. I would love to talk about your process in writing the autobiography a lot, if you don't mind, but it reminds me a little bit of the idea. I had some romantic notions about the creative process myself and especially with writing. I felt like if it doesn't come off the pen, intuitively straight from my whatever higher self or my, from collective conscious, from God, if it doesn't come off the pen inspired, I didn't want to tinker with it as you're putting it. I didn't. I hated rewrites. I effing love rewrites now. So I think it can change.

Speaker 1 13:04

But also tell me if this resonates you. You hinted that you don't want to. I want to. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but the audience is not your therapist. So you wanted to find the universal, seemingly without getting into your own particular version of it. I always use very dated references. I use Tori Amos as an example. I don't know if you like her, or even Kate Bush. Their lyrics can be so obscure and so personal. You're like what the fuck is she talking about Especially Tori Amos, but it still resonates. So there is this idea that the more personal you can make it, the more universally it lands with people.

Speaker 2 13:43

That's a mystery, when someone can do that. And it's not, let's say, a cut and dry, when something like abstract lyrics where we connect with those and you go, why am I connecting with this lyric? I don't even understand what's going on here, but whether it's the way that it's in some kind of a verse, where it's in a rhyme that does make sense, or the way that it's delivered, the way that it's sung, I think that's the magic, yeah, and you can't bottle it.

Speaker 1 14:09

But maybe inspiration transcends, like you said, regardless of the rewrites or over laboring, something one hopes if it was inspired, that transcends. That's the only theory I have. You know that you, you have to trust that actually. But I do want to ask you it sounds like some of your magic, maybe not the whole act, but some of the tricks are conceptual. I mean, I see a number of things in your work. I'm not here to review you because I'm not qualified, but I see the Dadaist influence, the absurdity. It's performance art to me and I am one of those people that didn't know they liked magic until I saw your stuff and I just find it to be performance art. But does every, I guess every trick um, is that the word every trick? Is it conceptual or are some just emotionally based? How do you begin your creative process? Are they all conceptual?

Speaker 2 15:04

Well, magic's different than than other art forms. So so in magic there's, there's two approaches, and it's it's the exact same way that I approached music, in that there's a story on a piece of paper, right? So you've got that. And then, on the other side of it, you've got the effect, the magic trick that comes from a book, that comes from a method, that comes from, at some point, someone created let's use boy boy what would be a trick that everybody knows a woman that's sawn in half, which I hate that trick, but we all know this right, so we know that a woman can be sawn in half right, there's a method and at some point, horace golden invented this trick.

Speaker 2 15:45

Doesn't matter who it is, but that's who it was, and and that's in a book and we could all, since this, this trick is in print, we can perform that exactly the same way that, um, the beatles have a songbook and if you can learn how to play guitar, you can, you know, find your way through any one of their tunes, because you've got the, you've got chords, you've got tablature, you've got the lyrics written out and you can listen to the recordings and try to emulate them.

Speaker 2 16:10

So those are the two things, and one of two things is going to happen. Either I'm really drawn to a trick and I go I want to do that trick, really, really, bad God. I want to find a way to do that that's interesting and provocative and that way I can put in, like you said, some of the surreal or dada stuff or add my, my, my own kind of point of view to it. So that's one way, or the other way is I've got a story on my mind, I've got this idea where, yeah, I'm regretful about something. I want to write a piece about regret. What's it going to be?

Speaker 2 16:43

so I would go to my magic. Then I would look at all the magic effects that are available. Go, oh, this would. This could fit with that, like tools. Yeah, like tools. Or if I'm having a really good day, I would dream up a trick that doesn't even exist in my mind and go I want to do that. I don't know how I'm going to do that, yet it's probably a method.

Speaker 1 17:01

Yeah, so the inspiration can come from a variety of places I know with, again, I guess, gallery work or, you know, painting, sculpting, the visual arts, right A material can inspire something, a juxtaposition of images. You see during your day, birds splashing through a puddle you know it can come from anywhere, really. But what I heard, I guess what I want to ask in all that because I did read your autobiography and I know you kind of stumbled into a magic shop and you know, didn't know what it was going to become, how it was going to serve you in your life Do you find and again this is coming from, I guess, 20 years of teaching and observing people's not only individual creative processes but the lifelong artistic journey at large? It seems like some people do just learn a craft, they're very focused on technique and it could be because they had a love of magic as a child, or a love of cinema as a child, or literature, whatever it is. They just want to be a part of that tradition, maybe, but they don't really examine why they've chosen it as their milieu. And then they do focus which, for good or bad focus on technique and craft.

Speaker 1 18:08

At some point and I'm including myself in this. You connect the dots and go oh, no wonder I was attracted to that and actually everything I've ever created is accomplishing this in the world, or that. I do have something to say. Some people may not ever connect those dots, but most of us do at some point. Does that make sense? Did you find yourself attracted to it just because you stumbled into that magic shop?

Journey of Self-Discovery Through Expression

Speaker 2 18:29

at what point did you realize, wow, this is a vehicle of expression for what I have to say in the world, not to put words in your mouth yeah, well, with with magic, because my to go back to what you're saying for a bit, for me I I, since I was a young boy, I wanted, I wanted to play music. So I couldn't wait to absorb as much music as I could. By the time I met you in 1980, I was having this major, my first real kind of renaissance of music, because my older brother, like your older brother, tony, is saying hey, man, stix and Ted Nugent and Ron Halen, this is the way of the world. And I was discovering new wave and punk music going no, actually this oingo boingo seven inch is pretty great. Uh, fuck you and stick, that's not the way. I don't like ted nugent anymore, right?

Speaker 2 19:21

So I was kind of having this, this re, like a reinvention and a rebirth and that led to, uh, opened up the doors to all kinds of other music. So for me, I wanted to be a musician and that was always my goal, like how do I do what those guys are doing? That was, that was like always the goal, and I and I followed through and I I had some success as a, as a musician, thinking that was going to be my life. Now, 10 years into that career, into my like mid to late 20s, I had I for the better or worse. I'd kind of fulfilled my fantasy of what I thought that was going to be. It wasn't.

Speaker 2 19:53

It was not at all what I thought it was going to be. And it got dark and some of that was, you know, self-destruction and the cliches that go along with being in in a rock band. I am those, I was you know so many of those cliches, but that led to the idea of rebirth. What else is there? What else can I do? Oh man, I had painted myself in a corner, always wanting to be this one thing. So when I walked in that magic shop and I bought this trick totally random, I'm like I had no idea that that was going to change my life until I got on stage that night Our guitar player broke a string and I I very quickly although I had the small piece of apparatus to vanish, a small handkerchief I asked somebody for a wrapped condom. That was just on my. That was just like I don't know where that.

Speaker 1 20:43

That was just wait, was that in? Uh, strange cures? I don't remember that detail, so sorry okay, yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 20:48

it was in Baltimore, maryland Bam was playing. Our Guitar Player Broke a String and I bought this magic trick, which is totally random, and while he's tuning I'm like, hey, does anybody have a wrapped condom? And someone threw one on stage and I took it out of the package and I put it in my fist and it vanished.

Speaker 1 21:04

Okay, that's right, it's coming back to me.

Speaker 2 21:06

And so 300 or so indie rockers went. They thought that was amusing and they applauded. I was like, wow, that that was actually really fun and that didn't require me having to sing a song from our set list or be this musician, this idea of this musician who I'd been kind of my whole life, or you know, my adult life for sure. So it was like I went oh there's, there's something else. And I and I quickly realized that I was just taking another part of me and putting it into another way to perform something.

Speaker 1 21:37

Yeah, it's like another mode of expression, Well, and it leads me. There's so many possible transitions here, but it sounds a little bit too like and not to lose anyone. But you know, life is the creative process, right, You're manifesting all day, every day, and the path your life takes is a manifestation. So it sounds like you were a live wire and you were kind of ready for something new, a spark of inspiration and the magic shop it's. It speaks to synchronicity a little bit that the universe kind of throws things in your path when you're receptive to them, Right, and then you found a way to apply it. So I don't know if I lost you a little bit, but you were primed and ready like an antenna it sounded like I think I was looking for something.

Speaker 2 22:18

I could have walked into a dance shop that had tap shoes or God knows what. I mean there's no, I think I was and I wasn't consciously looking for it. I think I was subconsciously looking for it and then, as you talk about, as you, you know touched on, you know synchronicity or or you know that that, whatever that idea is to anybody, any listener, for me it was driving back, because that was in Baltimore and then in New York we did the next night. I'm like, hey guys, tune up after every song. So I'm going to do that thing again with the condom, which I did, and it worked and it was just as effective. So drive back 3,000 miles from New York to LA and my girlfriend, who's now my wife, had a pass to go to visit the Magic Castle.

Speaker 2 23:01

She was managing the Viper Room on the Sunset Strip and had kind of this privileged passes to go to different clubs and at this night there was a wine tasting at the Magic Castle. So at that point this is around our 10-year reunion. By the way, I walked in there that night to that 10-year reunion and I didn't sign up for it.

Speaker 1 23:26

So you crashed it.

Speaker 2 23:27

I crashed it and I wore your name tag.

Speaker 1 23:29

Okay, I thought you wore chris barnhards no, I was I was nick domingo. I remember that, I remember that oh my god.

Speaker 2 23:38

No, it was because you didn't you.

Speaker 2 23:40

You were there, but didn't grab your tag and that is so funny I'm gonna, and and of course it was funny because I think most people knew that I wasn't you right, right, the point is, at that time this was when I was just getting into magic and barely had a suit to save it just wasn't like I wasn't wearing because Magic Castle requires a dress code. It was like at that point I wasn't exactly wearing suits and ties and cobbled something together and went there and had the most incredible night of my life with again Tommy, my now wife for almost 30 years, and it was like oh, who are all these people? Who's Thurston? Who's Keller? Okay, there's Houdini, I heard of him. Siegfried and Roy David Koehn. I don't know these people. So it was this massive revelation. Where you go? Oh, I want to know about all of these people. Like I was studying, you know, new wave and punk records of the early 80s.

Speaker 2 24:32

It was the same obsession where I'm like I want to know all of. I want to know about all of this, and the burning desire for reinvention kicked in. And here I am now, like I guess, like 30 years later, doing this. Wow, you never know.

Speaker 1 24:47

Yeah, well, it does seem like. It just seems like if you're receptive and your eyes are open, you know we have signaling all around us all day, every day, and sometimes you can see the dots. You know, I don't know things aligning and sometimes not, but that makes perfect sense to me. But it also brings for me, it brings up this idea that tell me if I'm right or wrong about this. Do you identify as intellectually curious?

Speaker 2 25:14

Oh God yes.

Speaker 1 25:15

Yeah, I'm so impressed, especially after reading your book. I actually remember you, didn't you carry around Helter Skelter?

Speaker 2 25:21

Yes, and then, what was the other book?

Speaker 1 25:26

about the sex pistols? Was there an autobiography about the?

Speaker 2 25:28

sex pistols. Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 25:31

Yeah, like who the hell was doing that. And so I'm a little intimidated. I read your. You were so immersed Like I studied illustration. I never studied fine art, but you know, I studied illustration, I made a career out of it. I was never so immersed in the fine art scene as you were. Maybe every 10 years I go out and do the gallery circuit and kind of see what the trends are, but I'm just impressed that you.

Speaker 1 25:55

I guess it is leading to a question. You seem to be intellectually curious. It does seem like maybe everything. You have a lot of diverse pursuits, different vehicles of expression, and I identify similarly and I've actually Virginia's heard me say this like I've been shamed for a little bit, like oh, you're jack of all trades, master of none, or nobody would know how to market you, and it's a form of shaming, in my opinion, for me. I always go back to yeah, but it's all storytelling, it always falls under the umbrella of storytelling. So do you feel similarly like all the tentacles you've got out there, are they all under some kind of umbrella?

Speaker 2 26:32

Not really. At this point I feel like I've had enough success in my chosen fields that if the phone is ringing and there's a lot of acting work, that's people saying, hey, come be on this TV show, hey, you might be good for this film. Go talk to this director, go out here and do this thing or directly book you for this. That's then I just go.

Exploring Autobiography and Defining Moments

Speaker 1 26:55

okay, I can, I'll lean into that yeah, if it ain't broke, don't fix it right exactly, and then and then, conversely, my magic and my acting careers are the main.

Speaker 2 27:05

My main pursuits and usually it's one of the two of them is is pulling me to some faraway place to do something that is, um, you know, it's that's kind of paving the way for the next steps of my career and, um, I always have, you know, pet projects with, with writing and things like that. But, um, yeah, I think I think it's uh, it's just something that like the idea of this being the storyteller and always just having that like what's next and how do I tell this next part of, or how do I go back in time and kind of encapsulate that. And you know when I'm working on that. You talked a little bit about the memoir Strange, curious that it was like a 10 year. That was my longest art project that I've ever worked on Um it was.

Speaker 2 27:53

it was really a long, long, long uh uh project and a lot of there's so much process with that Um boy. I look back on it and I just still like go I can't, it's mine.

Speaker 1 28:05

It's truly mind blowing and I guess I'm going to take this opportunity because a lot of our listeners, I assume, are writers, and so I'm going to talk about myself a little bit, but only to set up the questions. I just am very impressed. I've got Jane Fonda's autobiography on my table. The only ones I've really ever finished are yours, which was amazing. There's an NFL player called Sarah Tuaolo. Do you know him? No, he was one of the first ones to come out as gay, but of course after he retired. But then he was on the Voice, he went on Ellen and Oprah and he's kind of known for anti-bullying campaigns and a lot of LGBTQ issues. So I read that in its entirety. There's a woman named Tara Weston. She wrote educated.

Speaker 1 28:51

So I adore, I guess, narrative nonfiction, I adore memoir, I adore autobiography. But I haven't gotten through a lot of them, like David Sedaris, augustine Burroughs, running with scissors. Those I get through because they are just narrative, nonfiction essays. They're not memoirs. Anyone that can finish an actual, comprehensive autobiography, my hat is off to you. My question is this my hang up about it? Because, again, you know, I've done my narrative nonfiction essays. I'm very proud of them. I've done spoken word events and shared them here and there.

Speaker 1 29:27

But whenever I sit down and actually consider writing an autobiography, it's hard to commit to one lens or one theme. I could tell my life as a tragedy or a story of overcoming. For me it's comfortable to pick a theme. The longest memoir I ever wrote. It felt comfortable like okay, I'm not excluding any aspect of myself or kind of writing out things that seem inconsequential but actually might be defining moments. If I pick a theme, I can do it. Did you struggle with that at all? Like, what are my defining moments? And I'm going to add one little thought to it. Like the photographs that make it into an album as the official version of an event. Sometimes, when you go back and look at the rejects, they say more. So did you work with anybody or get any coaching on what constitute the defining moments? Or did you pick random ones and I'm offering that could possibly say more? How did you initially approach it? Did it seem daunting or overwhelming to you?

Memoir of Unusual Childhood Experiences

Speaker 2 30:27

First of all, it's a really great question. Let me see if I can break down the answer. I hope it made sense. No, it makes perfect sense. But I think, like a lot of people, you're at a party in eighth or ninth grade and you're telling stories about defining moments you've had up until that point and for me, by the time, by 10th grade, I'd already had a couple of pretty good ones in that my uncle shot me. Sorry for laughing at that, no, great. No, there's so much levity within that story, which is sad and pathetic because this man was a terrible raging alcoholic and a horrible person. Which is sad and pathetic because this man was a terrible, raging alcoholic and a horrible person, but he was. I had this uncle who was an FBI impersonator and he, when I was 12, shot me in the arm. So I come into seventh grade with like hey, how you doing? I got a bullet in my arm. My uncle shot me last summer. How are you?

Speaker 2 31:22

It was kind of like a thing that, like, became a story, you would tell the high school party or whatever became a story, you would tell the high school party, or whatever. And then the other defining moment was when I was before I knew you in grade school, when I was over at Bret Hart and you were down at Edison.

Speaker 1 31:36

I had really Roosevelt.

Speaker 2 31:38

Roosevelt. I'm sorry, roosevelt, I take the right I stand corrected.

Speaker 1 31:44

How dare you, clark and.

Speaker 2 31:45

Lima, I know, but anyway the point is I had, I had this terrible case of warts. I. But anyway the point is I had this terrible case of warts. I had 50 warts on both of my hands and it made me very shy and introverted. And the way that I got rid of these warts was by dipping my hands in cow shit every day. I shipped it on a trip to England and the United Kingdom.

Speaker 1 32:04

My favorite line in that was shit mittens that should be a garage band right there.

Speaker 2 32:09

Let's start a band. We'll do it. We'll be the shit mittens.

Speaker 1 32:10

That should be a garage band right there, let's start a band. We'll do it. We'll be the shit mittens Raising my shit mittens for the world to see.

Speaker 2 32:13

I think was the phrase yeah, exactly so the cure for these, to get rid of these warts, because I'd gotten them burned off a bunch and they kept coming back and they kept coming back, and it was this horrible childhood experience. But by dipping them in cow dung for every you know a fortnight, they would, they would go away and they did, and then so so again, by you know, by 15, 16, people would be like hey, Rob Robbie, tell them the story about your warts, Tell them about getting shot. Like it became a thing where people were going oh, that didn't happen to me, I didn't have my uncle didn't shoot me and I didn't have this case of warts that my witchy aunt said oh, dip your hands in cow shit and I'll go away. So I already I knew that like and and this, these aren't really things you brag about, because you know they're, they're, they're strange stories. I mean goddamn unusual.

Speaker 2 33:03

And I realized at this point oh, these are like, these are trippy stories and they so. By the time I'm in my 20s, I'd accumulated four or five of these unusual stories. So I knew that there was always like, oh, that would make a nice, and that would be a nice story to tell at some point if I could muster up to figure out how to do that. So by my 40s when I started working on that memoir. Now I've got 23, 24 stories, and some of them are tragedy, some of them are comedy, and they're all there. So what was really important to me the first thing was to get the facts right. I really needed to make sure that all of this really happened and I wasn't high on acid or whatever. I had been high on acid a lot at that point.

Speaker 2 33:51

I wanted to make sure that the facts were straight. I made sure that they were and I made sure that there was a good sound. I was working from a good base. I was working from a good base and then, once I was good with the fact-checking and all that, it was all about finding tone and style and, like you, I love reading a memoir. I don't care if it's NFL, I don't care If someone's willing to tell their story boy, let me in. I don't care who it is and what it's about. I want to know. I'm just intellectually curious, like you had said. So for me it was a question of style. In what way am I going to do this? Is it?

Speaker 2 34:33

going to be linear. Am I going to start it? I was born in Burbank, california. Hell, no.

Speaker 1 34:38

Well, that's sorry to interrupt you, but yeah, that in one interview you did say once I found the voice, it did kind of get easier. It wrote itself. So that makes sense to me, because your voice is your worldview, it's your emotional imprint, it's that indefinable thing. You're a really good writer because there always is the question I've referenced her a lot too, virginia, but Anya Ochtenberg coaches people. It's kind of a gift that you didn't write some of the stories you were carrying around earlier, because that's a different worldview and some writers struggle. Ooh, how do I put it under one voice? When I wrote this story when I was 14? Do you mess with it or you leave it as is? Because those are the eyes through which you viewed it at the time. I'm just impressed that you could be linear. You were very much in the moment. Everything was immediate. You didn't telescope they call it backwards or flash forward too much. That is a huge accomplishment, thank you.

Speaker 2 35:34

That makes sense. Yeah, of course. And to answer to your question, there was a couple of editors that I worked with that stylistically that there was no, they didn't have any. There was no creative input or notes there. My wife, tommy, also looked at like a million chapters and she'd be like this is great, maybe it could be funny or maybe you could start maybe jumping at this point over here. It was like moving the furniture around, I would say.

Speaker 2 35:58

It was the only thing that I got some assistance on, which was invaluable, of course, and and collaborative, um, but just with the there were, there were three people that looked at kind of you know the, the, the memoir, before it went off to the, to the printer, but you know it's all very positive, like, yeah, the stories are here, like you, you know, um, I, I was like jumping in with with dialogue and creating. I struggled at first with like, well, I've never you know when're when you're writing memoir. I think it's you have to. There's a certain creative Liberty where you have you're going to be making up dialogue, right?

Speaker 2 36:32

But, you're making it up from within a world that you know, so you can do that.

Speaker 1 36:36

Don't you find, though, too, when you put pen to paper, there's a lot more there than you realize? Is there Details? Maybe not dialogue, precise dialogue, but I just find anecdotes can be a little fuzzy in your mind the minute you put pen to paper, so much more comes back to you.

Speaker 2 36:53

For sure, but by having a solid foundation and making sure that all of these facts are right, everything is okay. I've confirmed now, with whoever and however, that this, this is the chain of events. How, how am I going to unleash this? And then it's just that that's when it becomes fun, because once you, you find your, your writing voice, um, and for me it was, yeah, just having read, just I read countless memoirs, the ones that I appreciated the most were the ones that I still appreciate the most, the ones that have dialogue and kind of jump around a little bit here and there and we'll show the beauty in the darkest moments that are again can be funny at times and always having a sense of I don't know self-deprecation at times not taking yourself too seriously.

Speaker 2 37:45

Because, look, I know, at the end of the day, I think I've got a good sense of who I am and where I fit in the world now just from doing this for so long, and I think that's partially. I'm lucky that I feel like I'm an empathetic person by nature I don't really have to fight to do that and I'm a curious person by nature. I don't really have to fight to do that. And I'm a curious person by nature. I don't have to fight to do that. And a lot of artists aren't and they're. You know, there's there's um, you know uh, there's the, the.

Speaker 2 38:12

The narcissistic side of us wants to just kind of me, me, me me me, those artists there's, they live out there and some of them are amazing and the orson wells, you know boski, ah, there's a. There's some of them that really like told their stories that were just were able to like kind of do that in ways that were like incredible. But I, I'm not, I'm not one of them. I'm not saying boskett was a narcissist, but man, he, he, his view, no I.

Speaker 1 38:40

I think they take themselves pretty seriously and you know there can be some elitist attitudes that inform that. But self-deprecating is a great term, because one of the podcasts I listened to probably yesterday, you talked about tap taking, tap dancing fairly recently.

Speaker 2 38:58

Oh yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 39:00

What was the quote? Something like yeah, I've never shied away from being bad at something.

Speaker 2 39:06

Yeah, I don't know, I don't know what I said, but yeah, I'm not like I'm not afraid to fail. I mean, I think that, like one of the things that even you know, playing, playing music early on, going like this I'm not, I'm not a fish to water and they're not like taking to this, I'm going to do it because I have a burning desire. I think that should drive all art is that when you know if you want to share some part of yourself, that don't let you know, don't let the technique get in the way, That'll come or maybe it won't. Maybe you'll be a sloppy garage band your whole life, and if so, if that's's your thing, so be it. You know, um, that's, there's nothing, that's. That's part of the, the greatness of it.

Speaker 2 39:49

But yeah, I just find, like you know, I think in my eyes we get one life and and make as much cool stuff as you can I love it that's, that's kind of the the goal for me and, you know, share my story and and hopefully, in ways that people connect with it and you know, and always, and that's okay, and you know, share my story and and hopefully in ways that people connect with it. And they don't always, and that's okay. And you know, I again I feel like it's a it's a very subjective thing, right, our artist is so like. I know, what I do is not for everybody, um, and that's okay, I'm yeah, but I think you know, the word authentic gets thrown around a lot and it means different things to different people.

Speaker 1 40:21

But I think what you said about being word authentic gets thrown around a lot and it means different things to different people. But I think what you said about being self-deprecating well, another word for that is vulnerable. So you just opened your veins and shared, and it happens to have everything. I'm just my opinion. I'm not here to analyze you, but the sense of humor is part of your worldview. You know, and you got to find humor in things. But maybe also, again, there were things I knew and things I didn't know.

Speaker 1 40:47

Tracy Blatchford, by the way, I mentioned that I had read your, she's read it too, and so it is amazing. I mean, for me, the experience of reading it was profound, because I already adore you, I have so much affinity for you, I think I know you. But of course, I don't know every aspect of you. Didn't know about the bullet, didn't know about the warts, would never have guessed. But now, after reading it, I'm like, well, that makes sense, actually, because I have always viewed you as quirky, not awkward. So you are. You've probably heard this a million times, but were you homecoming king or prom king, homecoming king, homecoming so like you kind of address that in the book, the kind of I don't know, like the discordance of being really popular, really likable, and it extends to people saying, oh my God, you have such a dark persona on stage but you're so affable, you know. So there is this weird thing where you're kind of the all-American guy, you're good-looking, you're popular, you're the what is it? Homecoming king, and yet you're quirky as hell. So it did kind of fill in dots to go oh okay, I didn't know he had those awkward moments, but it makes perfect sense. It kind of explains a lot. But I also loved other parallels, by the way, speaking of your vulnerability and your ability to be self-deprecating. That's why I brought that up.

Speaker 1 42:05

But here's a fascinating thing I grew up in San Fernando Valley as well, right In the 70s and 80s, next door to Hollywood. But it's almost like reading a parallel version of my life. We went to Barham Liquor, you went to what was it? Circus Liquor. You went to the Hollywood sign. We went to Lake Hollywood Like right, right, you smoked a jar, I smoked whatever. It was almost like code for my own life. And then further, you mentioned my brother a minute ago, so I'm going to bring him back. Robert Davin, to me, is like the brother from another mother. You take Tony Domingo's brain and my brain, put them in a blender and you've got Robert Devin. Wow, oh, you don't see that.

Speaker 2 42:48

No, I do no, I can see that yeah.

Speaker 1 42:50

Well, just in silly ways, like my brother is. We're the same person, let's be clear, but he's a little more, I guess, traditionally left brain. He's more techie and I or I guess it's like Aristotelian versus platonic thinking I do not hold onto particulars, including numbers, but I hold onto the essence of things. My brother is into particulars. I don't know that he's good at math, but he is a techie, you know. So Robert Davin is kind of like all of the above and kind of a genius, but anyway, I started seeing don't take this the wrong way but similarities with you and Tony. Oh, wow, interesting. Does that land at all?

Speaker 2 43:29

right away. Sure, of course, now that lands, and for the listeners who don't you know, we've been talking about me an awful lot. Dominic was the most creative artist of junior high and high school in the early 80s in California.

Speaker 1 43:48

No, no, no, I won most creative in ninth grade, but not as a senior. Chris Oliveri took that title. Oh, chris Oliveri.

Speaker 2 43:57

Where's Chris Oliveri now? Not on this podcast.

Speaker 1 44:00

He campaigned too. That's the thing he campaigned for it.

Speaker 2 44:04

No, I think everybody would go oh, Nick could draw that, oh, let's go, look at Nick's drawings. And I remember going to your house on Lima in Verdugo and sitting in the back studio and getting high and you had a little keyboard back there and it was a great mural, Right. Wow, you have a good memory In some ways. I do In some ways have a good memory. I in some ways I do, in some ways I do, but I have, I have great memories of us, you know, sort of being high back there and of course.

Speaker 1 44:30

Do you remember the PVC pipe that went out so you could literally blow your bong hits into the alley?

Speaker 2 44:35

I do, that's how industrious, my brother was, by the way, amazing, but uh, but you were. I think you were always, you know, had had a great um place in the arts, you know, back in junior high and high school. Because you were, you naturally had it. From what I could tell that this, this great gift for you know, drawing and animation, and and, um, everybody knew that you were going to go on and do great things and of course, you.

Speaker 1 45:02

Well, thank you for saying that. I mean, I will push back a little bit and say, after learning more about you and reading the autobi, anyway, she, just for a year she lived with us because she was kind of orphaned and trying to do, you know, become a dancer and an actress in Hollywood. So she's kind of like my third sister and I adore her, but I feel like everything she does is art, every breath she takes, you know, because she's a dancer, like she's performance, art all day, every day. So I feel that way about you. The only reason I got that title is and I'll give you the perfect anecdote In Tiny Tots. Well, it was our version of preschool, right? Yeah, doli was in my Tiny Tots class, by the way, as was Crystal, aldana and some people that I didn't even realize I realized later. They're in some pictures I have, like Melinda Field, who knew I even knew her in what 72? But um, anyway, apparently Sully was in my tiny tots class.

Speaker 1 46:13

Then we went our separate ways, but then he showed up at Roosevelt way later, like fourth grade, and uh, he goes dude, do you still draw bitching elephants? I will never forget that I was the elephant. I could draw bitching elephants and it kind of ended right there, so I got too much credit. I'm sorry. Drawing unicorns in a yearbook does not make you a great artist. I smoked too much pot for my own good because my art didn't evolve. Do you know what I mean? I drew unicorns.

Speaker 2 46:42

Well, you drew them better than anybody else, and whether you smoke too much pot or not, that's neither here nor there now. But what is important is that you start a band called Bitchin' Elephants or have a book called. That's like the greatest name I've heard all month, maybe year.

Speaker 1 47:01

Which takes me to Never Kill a Mockingbird. What was the name of that band? That was the.

Speaker 2 47:08

Castaways. That was the first garage band. Oh my gosh.

Speaker 1 47:15

See, again, I had a little bit of a brain fuck, is that it? A brain aneurysm when I was reading your autobiography because you said you started Possum Dixon at 20 or something and I was like wait, I thought you started it in high school, but that was called Castaway.

Speaker 2 47:30

Yeah, castaways, and then there was a few year break and trying to figure out. You know, I went to Valley College and tried to figure out what course I was going to take because you know you and I can. Both you and I both did not come from a show business background. So it is burbank being so close to hollywood, you would think there's some kind of like magic key to get into that world. And so many people that we did know fell into it by way of like oh, they're going to be sent, they're going to go into the sound engineers, they're going to be, you know, grips or iotsy or whatever, because their parents worked for the studios. But you and I you know, me being with music and you being with art was like our parents didn't do that for a living, so we had to sort of go out and and find our own way with that and I think you know, now in mid-age, I look back on it as I find it very gratifying and I was very proud to say that like, yeah, I've.

Speaker 2 48:24

Everything that I have is because I've made it happen and hopefully, through core values of you know, self-awareness and our strength, clarity, some kind of dignity, lots of hope, just being content with what level I have at this. You know, am I, have I fulfilled all my dreams, a lot of them, but I'm, I'm really content with you know where, where I've kind of found myself in the arts and it's it's. It's been a long ride and part of it is is being on the ride right. It's like the projects I'm doing today are going to define me tomorrow and hopefully they're a little more interesting, a little more you know that they're going to have more color and depth with them than anything that I've done before, and I think that's like should be the goal for all of us who are paving our own paths.

Speaker 1 49:12

Yeah, I think we do need to always grow as artists, right, it's not always about reinventing yourself, but maybe challenging yourself to expand your not bag of tricks but your, uh, your voice. Growing your voice. I keep using that word, but I earlier I kind of was just saying connecting, connecting your craft with some kind of contribution. That's very much on my radar right now yeah, that's, that's that's.

Speaker 2 49:39

I love that. I mean, I think we should, we should try to you know again. I I'll say these two questions what does this piece say about me and what does this say about life and when when younger magicians or artists or whoever.

Speaker 2 49:51

When I'm getting this conversation, I always throw those out there because they're they're really good and they're contemplative, and who I was 10 years ago and who I was 20 years ago or 30 or even 40 years ago, because we're entering. You know, we've been in this of ours for a long time. Um, we grow and we change and, like, the person that I am at 56 is not who I was I mean, in a lot of ways, who I was at 16, 26, 36, 46, but, like we, we, as we grow and evolve and change, our art should too. And um, I think that's, that's something I have to remind myself, like I don't want to keep repeating myself in ways that you know, I I still think that there's there's some unlocked rooms that I want to go and visit and try to, you know share.

Speaker 1 50:36

Yeah, that also takes me to that same I think it was the same podcast interview yesterday, because, again, I've had so much time to stalk you on the internet since we rescheduled. You know that I probably did too much and that's why I'm a little bit overwhelmed and at a loss for which avenue to go down. But I think you said exactly that in this interview, that something like I walk around in the world and I still have those 11 year old thoughts about the world. Does that ring a bell at all? That sounds like, yeah, something like that. But it resonated because I just saw david sedaris live. Renee, you know, my sister, renee, of course, took me for my birthday because we're huge david sedaris fans.

Speaker 1 51:22

I don't know if you like him at all, but he said a similar thing he goes, goes. You know, when you're young, you just think you're going to have old man thoughts later. And he also said you know you're old when the cashier says come on, young man. When they start calling you a young man, you know you've. You've crossed some kind of a bridge. Oh boy.

Speaker 1 51:42

But, I loved what you said because it's true, like one time my mom met a junior high school friend at the market oh, she lives in Burbank, right around the corner. Who knew? So they got back in touch and I thought how do they remember junior high? I assumed memories got really fuzzy. And it's not true. If you remember it, you remember it. It's not true. If you remember it, you remember it. It's not fuzzy and vague. That's my experience, so I don't know. I loved what you said.

Speaker 2 52:08

Oh no.

Speaker 1 52:08

Again, without putting words in your mouth, but that you still have the same thoughts you might have had at 11. And that's how I feel.

Speaker 2 52:14

That's the goal. Right Is to walk around with that childlike wonder and still trip out on things and you know, go, how do I interpret this? Into my aging man body or mind, how is this going to manifest? But that's all. Again, we have to be able to change and grow and look in the mirror and like, okay, this works for me now, like this suit looks good on me. This suit might not look good on me 20 years ago, I don't know. I think the idea of just changing the idea of self and growing in that way and knowing that you know you change and the world's going to change around you and you don't, it's not going to serve you to to try to live, you know, under some idea of who you think you are like I once I was at a bit a lecture once with um uh half of the act of pen and teller teller who doesn't?

Speaker 2 53:07

speak on stage, the smaller um, crafty magician of the two um, and he was talking to a bunch of young magicians and he was saying grow, learn how to grow with your material. And he was pushing you know 65 at that point and he's like look you, you, if you're going to be in this for as long as I have, you can't be the same person you were. Look you, you, if you're going to be in this for as long as I have, you can't be the same person you were when you were 14. You're going to have to evolve and change. So in in my case, what that means in magic is, every couple, every two, three years, I'll look at my comedy, I'll look at how I'm presenting something and I'll be like is this, does this joke still land the same way? I, obviously, I, I look different to a young man, I see. So I think it's important to just always kind of check in with yourself and have a realistic idea of who the world sees you as.

Speaker 1 53:55

Well, I see it. Sorry to interrupt you, but, renee again, my sister has been on twice and she talks a lot about. She has this pot metaphor how, if you don't grow internally and I would just say it's called emotional maturity or spiritual evolution If you're not nurturing the inner realm, what is there to express, right? So I think it is going to always be neck and neck with your maturation, if that makes sense. But if you're not, you know that's why there's so much content I would call it vapid content swirling around in social media, because there is no real, I don't know. We're a very youth-oriented culture, so there's not a lot of character reflected in the tits and ass.

Speaker 1 54:31

If that makes sense, I think it's almost inevitable that your product is going to reflect your inner growth in a way. But I think being aware of that and conscious of it is maybe the goal. I think it's interesting that you said maybe you can't deliver the same material when you look a certain way. My brother-in-law, jim Renee's husband, wrote a whole article about the creep factor, right? So it's kind of like in the workplace how you know if you like the guy, it's a workplace romance, if you don't like him, it's called workplace harassment, right?

Speaker 2 55:04

yes so he he just kind of came to terms with the fact that, yeah, I come across as creepy to a 23 year old and I need to get okay with it right and because, because you're, you're in your mind, you're, you see the 23 year old and you're like, yeah, I'm 23 in my mind and in my libido and you might have this be drawn sexually to somebody. And then you go oh, wait a second, I could be this person's parent.

Speaker 2 55:34

This is so wrong, I better just, I'm just going to go the other direction. You know, like you'd literally have to bury that thought, right, well, you put on their goggles.

Speaker 1 55:43

and so anyway, think, uh, whatever, but I am gonna fight ageism till my dying breath, me and jane fonda. That's why she's on my coffee table right now more power to you.

Speaker 2 55:53

I honor anybody who is into self-care and wants to, because look you, you know you're a performer, you're an artist, the body's part of the it's your instrument, some level. I mean I just saw you, I was, I thought you looked great. Artist, the body's part of the it's your instrument at some level. I mean I just saw you, I was, I thought you looked great and I was like, look, we don't, we don't get to look great, but there's a certain age where you've got to take care of yourself and we've both seen people who are our age, who don't, and you see what happens and I think it's just that's part of the deal, especially if you're, I think, if you're a performer. I've had one of my dear friends who's 20 years older than I am, who's been kind of a mentor, and she's always pointed out look, look at this, this performer's not taking care of themselves and watch them on stage and they move slow and they don't.

Speaker 2 56:34

It's like it's your duty to the audience not to state your high school weight level, it's not. If you can, that's but. But not everyone's going to be able to do that, but but to be able to at least put yourself together in a way that's like shows that you, you care enough about yourself, that there's enough, you know. I think that gives you a little dignity.

Speaker 1 56:54

Yeah, well, I think whatever there's, there's a lot of talk about aging gracefully and I'm not even sure what that looks like. But I want to be clear. You know, when I say Jen Fonda is my hero and I'm going to fight ageism, I'm just talking about kind of reassigning little cultural relevance to the wisdom that only comes with age. We are a very youth oriented culture, right, and we need to stop taking people out to the field and shooting them when they reach a certain age, especially women, especially women. Yes, yeah, they've got it pretty bad, but I just think we need to kind of put some cultural value back on experience. And then, something you hinted at earlier, which is why I even mentioned it, this idea of being resilient and plastic. And I do think it takes work to get up every morning and, you know, not throw in the towel on humanity or life, but kind of still care to make a difference. I'm amazed Jane Fonda still cares to get out there and protest. You know, I love it, I love it.

Speaker 2 57:48

Yeah, I'm a hundred percent with you, you know, and yeah, yeah. And just to touch on that, I hate, hate, hate how women are so many in I'd say probably focused on Los Angeles and New York, probably focused on Los Angeles and New York but women are in show business. You're into a certain age where you don't look like you did when you're 22, you get work done and all of a sudden you are a zoo animal. Everyone goes, oh, look at that freak, you're down If you do, down if you don't.

Speaker 1 58:16

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 58:17

Yeah, so I I can't stand it and I think there's there's nothing that's ever going to be done about that.

Speaker 1 58:25

But I just wanted to say we have a woman somewhere in this room waiting in the wings.

Speaker 4 58:31

I was cracking up when you guys started talking about that, because I was literally thinking that, because I mean, yeah, I'm definitely not my high school weight at all anymore. No, no, but I'm just saying but you know, I am turning 50 this year and um, and I I agree with Rob, by the way, nick- on which one. I'm looking really good Cause I've known you for like 15, 20 years now. Um.

Speaker 1 58:56

Oh no, I mean, I'm not in the under, I'm behind. You know what I mean Behind the camera. I've never identified as somebody in the entertainment business that has to give a shit. So thank you for saying that.

Speaker 4 59:06

You do.

Speaker 1 59:06

I interrupted you.

Speaker 4 59:08

No, you're fine. But no, you're right. I mean it's sad that you know, I know, as I've gotten older, instead of like doing all the makeup that I used to do, I mean, to me, aging gracefully means I'm able to be natural. I know you've mentioned that, um, dominic, about you, know your own sister, like you know, when you're able to get older and and be natural and not, you know, get a bunch of work done or um, you know, and, but you don't basically look like you roll out of bed either. You get up and you, you present yourself in a way that looks good, and I just wish that that would be embraced more in the entertainment industry. Being someone who worked in fashion, I know for women it just is not embraced like it should be.

Speaker 1 59:53

Well, what do you think of like Pamela Anderson supposedly going on the red carpet? You know the haters come out and say, oh no, she's wearing foundation. I can tell blah, blah, blah. Do you like that trend toward uh, even yeah?

Speaker 4 1:00:07

I thought it was great that and that's what I'm saying I mean, I think it was great that she's like no, because the thing is is, as we age, as women, um and I'm sure you know, rob, you probably know this because of stage makeup and stuff Um, you know, when you get older skin it just does not sit on the skin Right it sticks in all the little cracks.

Speaker 1 1:00:26

Yeah, yes, andy McDowell. What do you think of Andy McDowell? I love her silver hair.

Speaker 2 1:00:31

Yeah, I love all I think. Yeah, Pam Landerson, all of them, Anybody who's taking this approach to just you know, do it gracefully and even publicly, or whatever. I love it.

Speaker 1 1:00:47

I, even publicly or whatever, I love it. I think it's amazing I think you were hinting at like you factor that into your act, that it's your vehicle, right? Your vehicle of expression, your, your, your instrument is your vessel. You know what I mean? It's all one, so you can't.

Speaker 2 1:00:56

Yeah, I mean, I got up this morning and had to do the yoga class before I came here and I try to be mindful of like this is the body, like try to eat as good as you can and not don't pollute it with a bunch of you know like that's that, stuff's important, that and it affects my creativity, my state of mind and it's all part, it's all. It's a big piece of the puzzle that. I'm not that a lot of people put a lot of weight into that, but I certainly doaded to that but I certainly do.

Speaker 4 1:01:22

I think that's a great point too, because, you know, I don't think people realize that you know it all, like you said, it is all one thing, it's a whole body. You know mindfulness, you know thing when it comes to creativity. If we don't because even state of mind I mean if you think about, if you just, I don't know, we've all had all had, you know days where we're just tired and we need to, you know, decompress and regroup, but if we set every day on the couch just junk in, junk out, and I mean that's I'm talking, that's visually on the tv, to like, literally, like you know, sitting at the back of potato chips and you're just in your sweats all day, do you feel creative, do you motivated? Do you even feel good about yourself in that aspect? I don't Right.

Speaker 1 1:02:07

Virginia, I might've mentioned this on the podcast before speaking of romantic ideas about what it is to be an artist, or the creative process or the schmanartistik. I have an instructor at 19. I had just started art center, you know they have you read letters to a young poet and you're already internalizing a lot of these romantic notions. But he basically said, yeah, you're signing up for a lifetime of depression and then inspiration. So there's this. So letters to a young poet already says all true inspiration comes from solitude. I see that it means something different to me now than it did back then. It doesn't mean being a misanthrope, but it means carving out that solitude for your passion, you know. But I didn't want to hear that at 19. When he said you're signing up for cycles of depression and inspiration, I didn't want to hear it.

Speaker 1 1:02:54

Now I understand it. I think the value if you find yourself on the couch with the potato chips I love that. I had never heard that Junk in, junk out you have to have faith that the roots are not tapping bare on soil. There is something germinating underneath and, as we've said a million times on this podcast, there's value to the melancholy, because that's when everything germinates, absolutely. But I think too. I mean, I haven't been inspired to write recently at all, and I do think I don't know, I'm not going to blame it on any one administration- no, you can.

Speaker 2 1:03:33

I have no problem with that.

Speaker 1 1:03:34

It's just taken me a while to get the wind back in my sails I'll put it that way and I've had some challenges. But it's like, yeah, maybe the mind-body-spirit connection is it's important to keep that balance for your craft, because why haven't I been inspired? Well, cause I'm depressed.

Speaker 2 1:03:51

Yeah, I can, I can speak to that Um, in, in. In relationship to last year, I had a really awful thing happen, um, and all I went. At the end of it I was like, okay, what's the silver line to this? How can I come out? I need to find there's got to be a way I can look back on this and find a positive and a negative in it, and it turns out that for me it's going to be an essay that will come out later.

Speaker 2 1:04:20

this year about something that kind of you know had a big problem with. Now I don't know. I guess what I'm trying to say is trying to find a way to turn the hell of whatever. Obviously, we're in knee-deep with the new. Well, I don't know how candid we're being, but you know what I'm talking about. It's like what's the silver lining to that?

Speaker 4 1:04:52

When you find out, let me know yeah, exactly, exactly I don't know either honestly, what I liked, what you were saying wrong because it made me think of um, basically looking at at the bottom line of reflection. So you know, when you're in that melancholy, depressive kind of outlook, is what's the why behind the meaning yes, why it led me to a question too, though.

Speaker 1 1:05:16

You know we talked a lot again on this podcast. I used to say making lemonade of lemons, but that sounds a little hallmarky, right? I? I personally have cleansed the world through my creative process. I right, I kind of know what theme I'm addressing and actually I may not know the outcome, but by the time I'm finished with the piece, if I've engaged fully in the creative process, I do emerge with policy for the next chapter. I can move on, and that's, I guess, just catharsis. But, virginia, we've talked about this, this unexamined level too. You're always working out something subconsciously that you don't identify until later. Do you ever find later, like you said, hey, how am I going to work through this particular crisis that I'm having A? I could write an essay about it, okay, but do you ever later look back and go, wow, I was working out something I wasn't even in touch with with that piece?

Speaker 2 1:06:09

Not really, um, and only because I don don't, I don't really go back. I try not to look back on that stuff. Because if once I start going back and analyzing anything that I've done, I that's what makes me depressed looking back on yesterday and going, oh, my god, what was I thinking? Um, because I, I, I, all I do is is find faults and error in stuff, and I'm not that's not me looking trying to, you know, fish for compliments in any way, because even going back and reading Strange Cures, I'm like, oh, I want to restructure it. We look at a chapter once in a while it's brought to my attention for some reason and I'll go, oh, this might have worked if I flipped this around, if I started with this, and it's like I can't change that.

Speaker 1 1:06:54

so I could have, should have what is yeah.

Speaker 2 1:06:56

So it's kind of it kind of becomes moot and I and I just think, well, the next time I do it I'm going to try to do it a little bit better. I'll remember right that there was, you know that I that I I could have structured it had I taken a little more time, or looked at it through a different lens, or you know how would you know an artist I really admired, how would they have approached that thing and kind of use those as goal posts versus like just, oh my god, everything I've done is so messy well.

Speaker 1 1:07:23

I don't like when people put it this way, but you often hear like well, that's what keeps artists going, is they're perfectionists or, you know, they hate everything that's over five minutes old. I don't see it that way, but I do think that's why you don't necessarily look back. You just look forward and continue to grow and learn, right.

Speaker 2 1:07:41

No, I think that's a great way to put it.

Speaker 1 1:07:44

I do have a question. We're backtracking a little bit, but I guess the bio is a representation of you, but of course, having just read your entire autobiography, I know there's a hell of a lot more there. But a simple question that I can ask is this you seem to have very much immersed yourself in different forms or formats, genres of storytelling Some conceptual kind of like the Dadaist absurdity thing, some more linear narrative, but in all the different things you've tried your hand at, been very successful at dipped your toe. In all of the above, what is the common thread? I've suggested that it's story. But why are you so driven to express yourself creatively? Not everybody is. I think we're all creative as humans. It's an innate drive to be creative. But what do you think is the common thread throughout all of it, or what drives you to express?

Speaker 2 1:08:36

um, it's gonna sound pretentious as hell, but I I just find it's my crusade in my life. I think it's what I do best. Um, I can't really put it any other any other way than that. It's just been something that I've been drawn to since I was in, remember, and I have a burning desire to do it. So that's always kind of been. That's always taken me to the next, to the idea of, like, how am I going to, how am I going to do this? So it's the burning desire to want to share, you know, by, by human experience, and I think that comes from just being, from being empathetic and from being curious and from wanting to know about others and kind of going, hey, this is my, this is my weird story.

Speaker 2 1:09:22

Yeah, I liked yours, check this one out. You know that, that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 1:09:29

I love it. Yeah Well, everybody supposedly has a story to tell, right? And Virginia and I have decided that doesn't mean you're the one to tell it. I've joked, well, I'm so the former, not the latter. But I've been exposed to some pretty bad literature because I'm doing some audible narration now, and so I've had a couple experiences where I just needed a bath afterwards and I thought, hmm, I am going to go back to my elitist roots, my art center roots, and say, instead of saying everybody's got a story, and this is our whole podcast, everyone has a story to tell, tell it. Now. I'm like, how about let's create a podcast that says shut the fuck up.

Speaker 2 1:10:13

Let's not, let's not tell the stories, let's just sit in silence. Right right. I mean, yeah, look, all that stuff is great learning, and you kind of go. Well, I'm going to try to do it a little bit differently Because, oh boy, yeah, it takes all kinds. That's all I can say.

Speaker 1 1:10:32

I think maybe temperament and disposition are pretty fixed and everything else is malleable.

Speaker 1 1:10:37

But I do think, you know, just again, in learning so much for my 20 years of students and then I keep in touch with them and see where they land as they, after they graduate, and just kind of, you know, being surrounded by artists my entire adult life I would say that that we do have a desire, like you're hinting at to I hate the word sensitive because it implies reactionary, right, but maybe we do have heightened senses and we're perceptive, maybe observers of human nature or the human condition, but then we have a desire to reflect that back and that's the ingredient I would say, you know, and Ayn Rand would probably say, is that we have a desire to either put it on a pedestal or put it in a frame and re-present it somehow for the benefit or the horror of everybody else. That's she said it well. Well, horror was my word. There is a desire to take all that we see, and sometimes maybe we see too much, so we have to do something with it. That is maybe the chip.

Speaker 3 1:11:37

That's the chip there all right, I don't know just one way of looking at it sure as I say, art for art's sake.

Speaker 4 1:11:46

in many ways, as you like to say, is reflection of the content and the feeling of what's going on, I think, both internally and on a societal front.

Speaker 1 1:11:58

Yeah, that's Ayn Rand would say. It holds up a mirror to society and to our metaphysical values. Speaking of way back in the eighties, rob, I did, I remember Ira Heffler. No, mr Heffler, no, no. Anyway, I did the optimist club orffler. No, mr Heffler. No no. Anyway, I did the Optimist Club oratorical contest back in the day. I didn't get very far, I got like three.

Speaker 2 1:12:20

What courses did he teach? Well speech Heffler. No, but God. I wish I was taking speech instead of print shop. I would have been further along by now.

Speaker 1 1:12:33

Well, he taught english as well, but I just did. I did the speech contest and it's called the optimist club, but anyway, we're even way back. There was, uh, the topic of my speech was of the whole circuit. Was um television master or servant? Ah, so it was kind of hinting at what's only gotten worse, which is does it reflect Virginia, like you're saying, or does it dictate? It's both isn't it Always?

Speaker 2 1:12:54

That's amazing. That's some interesting thinking for teenage kids.

Speaker 1 1:13:02

There's a whole book called something like the Medium is the Message yes, seeing through the medium to the message, and it's been alive and well for a long time. But yeah, maybe it was heavy for high schoolers or something. Um, my point is it was happening all back then. It's only snowballed since then, this idea of the media, and now that we have social media and the interwebs, everything's so immediate that maybe the reciprocal factor is stronger than ever yeah, I get what you're saying.

Speaker 2 1:13:34

There's just there's so many more ways to express ourselves now than there ever were and there's there's more, so many more channels. But yeah, I've always dug that the medium is the message, that yeah, it goes back to the 60s and that that was a bad essay, was profound to me, because you kind of go this, this, we can look at this in different ways, and is it the speech or is it the speech teller? But hopefully, you know, if you're the writer of these things and the presenter, you're contributing to the art form and that's that's.

Speaker 1 1:14:01

That's the goal you like to collaborate as well, it seems. I love it.

Speaker 2 1:14:06

Yeah, there's nothing more than I create. A collaborative process is always to spend something I've loved doing, even, you know, going back to music and playing in bands as a teenager, just going like how is all this going to come together? And you know, you know, even when you're in you're in a movie or tv show, you don't get to pick the, the fonts of the show, or the, the music that goes on the other actors you're, you're, you know you're a pawn in this big picture.

Speaker 1 1:14:32

You know that's what I love about filmmaking is not just the creative synergy, not just the collaborative aspect, but that everybody gets to bring their gift, you know. And so, as a director, I found like if you just share a vision or at least get on the same page, there's really no breathing down the neck or iron-fisted management to be done. You just let everybody work their magic, I mean. I mean that's the ideal.

Speaker 2 1:14:53

Right, because everybody wants the same thing. We're all heading towards the same mission, the same thing, whatever the big concept of what it is. If everybody gets that great. But if not and often case I've been on so many TV shows or movies or commercials or whatever where it's not, you see how quickly and how uh horribly it can fall apart. So so to have to have projects like memoir or a magic act or something, a story that you write or animate or whatever you can write, produce, direct and act these things, and that's when you have complete control. And really that's that's the thing, that's the great thing of beauty, right there is to have projects that you do have that much control. And so when you're any kind of working pro, you're going to run into situations where you're required to do something under somebody else's vision and you want to be able to help them see that through the finish line, and that can be challenging.

Speaker 1 1:15:52

Yeah, I've noticed some people can collaborate and some aren't meant to. It's not that they can't, they're just not meant to. They're kind of a singular brand and, um, yes, yeah, especially in animation. I mean, I think there's people that are better off working from a cornfield in iowa and I used to say with a fax machine, and that that can be done, you know, but it takes a real specific temperament to be able to work collaboratively on an animated film. I mean, there's hundreds of people that are involved. Anyway, rob, I would love to dive in. Maybe we'll do a part two because there's so much in the memoir I want to go back to. So nostalgic, I'll be honest, right after reading your book, this is how surreal this political landscape is. I watched the OJ thing on Netflix last night. Have you seen that? Oh my God.

Speaker 2 1:16:38

No, but I'm always watching. I can't get enough of that stuff.

Speaker 1 1:16:42

I was going to say, well, there's been so many documentaries about it. And then the Ryan Murphy thing. I saw that. But all I know is there was nothing else new on Netflix, so I just started watching it. It that, but all I know is there was nothing else new on netflix, so I just started watching it. It felt like comfort food to me.

Speaker 2 1:17:03

I know it's about a double murder and I'm like how does that feel more kind and benevolent than the reality we're living in? I know, I know, it's, it's.

Speaker 1 1:17:06

I know exactly what you're saying it's kind of like when bush, when w suddenly seemed like a gentleman I know, I same, I know, and you're like, wow, during that time he just seemed like so horrible.

Speaker 2 1:17:17

And now you kind of go, oh okay, this guy was actually actually, you know, composed yeah, at least it was funny.

Speaker 1 1:17:24

Anyway, we do wrap up at about an hour and 20 minutes and I feel like we've touched on a lot of good stuff. But there is something I wanted to bring up with you and then we can start to steer it toward a close. But you said it again in the interview that I think the one that I just watched last night that you have a nostalgic streak and that's clear. Your memoir is very much and thank God that you're capturing that very specific, I would say 70s San Fernando culture, but then the music scene as you progressed into the 90s, and again things I wasn't really into. The underground scene.

Speaker 1 1:18:00

I've done my time at Al's Bar and I've been to a couple dives. I've been to the whiskey but I was not immersed in it. Same with the art scene. Every 10 years I do the gallery circuit. Other than that it's coffee shop art that I'm exposed to, so I don't know. It really opened my eyes. And I did go to Jabberjaw once, by the way. Oh, great, Probably one of the. You and I had sushi on Vermont, probably before that 10 year reunion, Do you? Do you happen to remember that?

Speaker 2 1:18:32

I do, I do remember that it was down there in the village there near Franklin and Vermont. Yeah, of course.

Speaker 1 1:18:38

Yeah, it was your pick. I don't remember which sushi joint it was, but I would say that's the last time we had an in-depth conversation Other than that. It was like the 10-year reunion, like you said, and kind of seeing you at the Steve Allen Theater for five minutes or the Magic Castle for five minutes. So this is a real pleasure. But there were so many just familiar images in that autobiography and then, like I said, I just watched that OJ thing. So I am living in the nineties.

Speaker 2 1:19:05

Don't live there too long, because I don't want to prevent you from your next best work. Okay, but it is fun to look back and use the past as a comfort, if it can be comforting. Whether it revolves around true crime or not, that's everybody's personal jam, but maybe it'll be the inspiration for the way forward.

Speaker 1 1:19:23

Well, I'm a Scorpio, so I have no choice, I'm just nostalgic. But this is what I wanted to pick your brain about and I think you kind of hinted at this. I just feel like maybe you'll resonate, I think in a good way. Eckhart Tolle and a number of others you know be in the moment, present, moment, awareness. It's a cultural value and I think it's awesome because if you're perseverating about the past and I think you did say in this interview like I thought I'd get it out of my system but I wasn't freed from it Now that could be things that haunt you from your past or things you regret, but you just seem to be saying I'm nostalgic. You now seem to accept that about yourself, but you said something like actually writing the book didn't do what I thought it was going to do for me.

Speaker 2 1:20:09

Oh, that's exactly right. I did it as a means to an end where I thought I was going to be able to wrap up, button that whole thing up and put it on a shelf and never look back. But hell, no, it's worse now than it was before.

Speaker 2 1:20:24

So there were things like regrets or things that haunted you that didn't go away, Of course yes, and as worthwhile as that whole endeavor was, it didn't do what I thought it was going to do, which is okay, and I've accepted that now, and I just know now that I'm a nostalgic person, and that's okay.

Speaker 1 1:20:45

That's what I wanted to get to, though is see, I didn't know if it meant, ooh, I had demons, and now I thought I'd outrun them by doing the book, and I didn't. It could be positive or negative.

Speaker 1 1:20:55

But anyway a lot of our guests will say absolutely, they're aware that writing is cathartic. Aristotle even said it frees you from complexes. Period Storytelling, whether you're the patron or the author, it does have that effect. Author, it does have that effect. So I just, being the Scorpio that I am, I just see all day, every day, that people that have something to run from really tout, adapt or die, move forward, look to the future, don't dig in the dirt. For a lot of my adult life I've said well, okay, but if you know what makes you tick and you've already done your therapy, I just think anyone could benefit from therapy at any time. I have no fears of shrinks, you know, but I did think, as long as you've done your work and you've dug in the dirt, you know what makes you tick. Yeah, just whether it's a spiritual practice or a policy to move forward, better to look forward than back.

Speaker 1 1:21:50

If you've done the work, I will say I've had to defend my nostalgic nature a little bit, even to myself, and just think, yes, the idea would be move forward, always reinvent yourself, be flexible, adapt or die. But yet actually our memories make us. The personality is only an amalgamation of your memories. So I feel like. Don't shame me for clinging to the past if I don't perseverate on it, but actually fond memories can keep you right, warm on cool nights, and it's a safe place to go. I think Woody Allen has written about nostalgia as an escape from the current reality. How do you, where do you, fall on all of that if it makes sense?

Speaker 2 1:22:35

More of where you're at, where it's like, yeah, don't get stuck there, but yeah, if it makes you feel good to walk past the old Winchell's Donut shop by Luther and go. God, I have so many memories of like.

Speaker 1 1:22:48

Like Jimmy with the knife, remember trying to rob it with a knife. Did you know that one.

Speaker 2 1:22:54

No, I don't have that warm memory.

Speaker 1 1:22:57

I won't say the last name, but cutest smile in our yearbook, oh really, Okay. Later he tried to rob it with a knife. How do you rob? All they have to do is shut the glass window.

Speaker 2 1:23:12

And how much are you really going to walk away with? Like $23?. Anyway, that aside, you said it so well it's like, yes, those things can really comfort you and you can relive these moments of glory sometimes, or sorrow, whatever it is, and they can be really useful you know and they and inspiring so but they do make us, if that makes sense.

Speaker 1 1:23:39

Like your person and you know, my mom had dementia. It didn't advance too far, she died before it advanced too far. But that is the robbing, or even alzheimer's you're kind of being robbed of your entire identity. I would say your identity, your personality, is your memories. So how can you devalue that, virginia? But when it comes to narrative therapy, why didn't Robbie get that outcome?

Speaker 4 1:24:04

I haven't studied narrative therapy deeply enough. It's an area that I'm just starting and it's pretty comprehensive.

Speaker 1 1:24:14

Because his autobiography is really good. Do you call it a memoir instead of an autobiography? I call it a memoir but they're synonyms.

Speaker 2 1:24:24

I don't think there's any difference. I think it's a choice, okay.

Speaker 4 1:24:28

Yeah, I was going to say probably what my best guess is, not, you know, obviously, sitting here and diagnosing you and doing a therapy session with you, but I'd probably say, just from the things that you've said, rob, you're open to feedback, you're pretty, you know intraperspective perspective, um, and and you're, you don't. I mean I'm not gonna say you don't, I mean you obviously have a hidden self, but you seem to not have a huge hidden self, at least from what I'm noticing. So that's probably what it is is there's a, it's called the jihara window and you've probably got a pretty big area of openness versus um hidden self, unknown, unknown and blind, which is like the areas that you either don't want to reveal or aren't aware of.

Speaker 4 1:25:18

That's probably why it's just because you've been pretty reflective, naturally, so it served you, but it's not like where you're like. Oh wow, I had no idea about that.

Speaker 1 1:25:30

Yeah, rob, it sounds like you've been lucid, right. You've been lucid in processing all the way along, I think. So yeah, we're not here to analyze you. I mean, I'll put myself at center stage as the guinea pig. The first two times I did therapy, one was during Art Center, right, and I was living with somebody, so I was in a relationship and there are always mirrors, right. But I was also on the verge of coming out, which is huge. So I saw a flyer and it says sliding scale and I could afford it and I was always interested in psychology. So I think I went into it, probably needing it, but more so framing it as oh, wouldn't this be interesting? I'm just going to do this because it's free, but I did have this fantasy that I was going to curl up in a ball and find my inner child and just weep into the carpet, and it never happened. So later I was like, well, she was an intern, maybe she wasn't at the top of her game.

Speaker 1 1:26:30

And the second time I did it later in life, same thing. I just thought when is this big epiphany going to happen? Not the intellectual stuff, but the gut level, visceral release of all those toxins. It just never happened. And granted, I need a dude next time so I can do the transference and the role reversal, all that stuff. But it just never happened. And I thought, yeah, maybe the same thing you're saying, virginia. I've been lucid all the way along, so it's not like there's too much that's pent up or unexpressed.

Speaker 4 1:26:57

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:26:58

I think so I'm going to go. I'll think you can take my, my uh armchair philosophy on that, and I think so yeah.

Speaker 1 1:27:06

Well, I think there's so much we didn't cover, but I hope listeners were able to connect the dots of how you kind of moved through your different modes of expression and then brought you to where you are today. I would love to put some more links. What was the name of the song you just released? It was kind of about the whole legacy and history of magic.

Speaker 2 1:27:24

Oh, it's called our magic. Yes, our magic yeah, thank you. There's a video that goes along with that, that's uh. Um'll send it over to you guys. You can take a look at it.

Speaker 1 1:27:33

Well, if you don't mind, I would love to put that link. It rocked my world.

Speaker 2 1:27:36

Oh great, yeah, Please put the video in there, cause we we test some. There's some really fun visuals in there, that's what kind of rocked my world is.

Speaker 1 1:27:44

Oh great. I probably already gave you my review, but I love do you know, janae and corot, those filmmakers. No city of lost children oh, yeah, yes, it just had that, that feel to me oh right, wow. And then I also saw the blondie song that I didn't even know.

Speaker 2 1:28:00

Oh, yeah, dreaming, yes, of course, I love, thank you tempo of that. Oh, wow, thank you. The original is like really fast. And so we, when I was like, well, I want to cover this song, but I want to do it not like blondie, I want to do the opposite of what Blondie would have done, and so I slid it into a ballad. So, thank you, listen to the original. It's very inspiring and upbeat. It's called Dreaming, of course, yeah, that's I was.

Speaker 1 1:28:22

I heard yours first and then I thought because I've never bought an album for whatever reason. So I saw yours. Then I looked for her version and I was like, oh wow, it's really upbeat. Who knew? Wow.

Speaker 2 1:28:40

Amazing Well, thank you.

Speaker 1 1:28:42

That's a lot Beautiful video.

Speaker 2 1:28:44

Well, thank you. This has been really a nice afternoon talking with Virginia. It was nice chatting with you earlier on. Thank you, and Dominic, thank you for chatting today. It was really fun.

Speaker 1 1:28:59

I had a good time. Yeah, thanks for finding the time and fitting it in. You seem in pretty high demand, so you were a good get. Thank you so much. I would love to.

Speaker 2 1:29:04

Yeah, well, you're very welcome. It was fun catching up as well, so thanks for the nostalgia.

Speaker 1 1:29:11

There's so much more, but maybe next time. It was very gratifying. Thanks, we're lucky to have you. Thank you so much. Okay, and to our listeners remember life is story and we can get our hands in the clay, individually and collectively. We can write a new story. See you next time.