Love as the Force behind Perseverance, with acclaimed author Tong Ge

Acclaimed author Tong Ge joins us to discuss her celebrated novel, 'The House Filler,' a family saga set in China during the most tumultuous time of the twentieth century including the Japanese invasion, the civil war, and the Communist takeover.

We go on to discuss the power of Historical Fiction to both fuel social reform and preserve history by documenting the stories of the silenced and erased. As Tong Ge puts it, the number one outcome that drives storytellers is the desire to 'right a wrong.' This episode touches on the mechanics of empowering those who inherit intergenerational trauma from their ancestors, as well as the resilience of the human spirit when driven by love.

LOTS One-time Donation
Your donation, however big or small, will help us build our platform. Click Here to Donate!

Patreon
As a patron, you're joining a community of like-minded individuals passionate about the stories.

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:45

Born and raised in China, tong Ge moved to Canada in the late 1980s as an international student, earning a Master's of Science degree from University of Saskatchewan in 1992. Since 2012, she has written under both her real name and the pen name, tong Ge, publishing poetry, prose and short stories in English and Chinese across North America, england and Taiwan. Short stories in English and Chinese across North America, england and Taiwan. Tong is a recipient of four literary awards and a finalist for five others. Her debut novel, the House Filler, was published in Canada in 2023. It is a finalist for the 2023 Islands Book Awards and the 2024 Canadian Book Club Awards for Fiction, and won the 2024 Independent Press Award for New Fiction and National Association of Independent Writers and Editors Award for Literary Fiction. Wow, very impressive. Welcome, tong Gu.

Speaker 2 1:42

Thank you for having me here.

Speaker 1 1:44

Of course. Thank you for being here and welcome Virginia. Thank you, Our producer extraordinaire.

Speaker 3 1:52

Yes.

Speaker 1 1:53

Yeah, we're very excited to have you on Very accomplished and probably one of our most acclaimed authors so far. We've had a lot of authors and a lot of great, stimulating conversations, but you seem to be the most not prolificific, maybe because I know this was your debut novel, but certainly most acclaimed. And uh, I want to get to that. I want to really talk mostly about the house filler. Was there anything in the bio you wanted to correct? I'm sure I butchered something in there oh, now it's five, literally five awards oh, okay.

Speaker 2 2:29

I think that one's a bit old.

Speaker 1 2:32

Right, yeah, I had a feeling. Actually I imagined asking that question, Like anything since we received this bio. Well, I guess that is. I was going to start out with a rote question that we ask all of our guests. But how does it feel to have such a great reception? Critically.

Speaker 2 2:48

It's great because that's a validation for my ability to write Absolutely, Especially when English is my second language. Right, I face additional challenge.

Speaker 1 3:03

I agree. I hate to already jump into some nuanced questions, but do you feel the novel lands differently? Because everything is culturally relative, but language it's almost like things land differently in different languages. Do you feel that readers have a different experience when reading it in Chinese than they would in English?

Speaker 2 3:23

Yes, 100%.

Speaker 1 3:26

How so Is it more poetic? That's my guess.

Speaker 2 3:30

In Chinese. I can use local dialect so I can regionalize the language spoken In English. I can do that.

Speaker 1 3:40

Right, right. Yeah, there's all kinds of. I do speak French, so I've noticed you know it's about cultural values. It might take 12 words to say something in French that we have one word for because it's a cultural value, and then vice versa. You know, eskimos have 20 words for snow because they're surrounded by it all day, every day. We've got one word Exactly. Did it open up more nuance, more opportunities for you to write it in English, or do you feel you were limited in some way?

Speaker 2 4:13

I feel I'm limited in some way.

Speaker 1 4:16

It's really beautiful. I was only able to read about two and a half chapters so far, but it's poetic simplicity, which is a good thing in my opinion. No idea how it lands in Chinese, but very simple, in a beautiful poetic way, if that makes sense. Thank you, just my opinion. No idea how it lands in chinese, but very simple, in a beautiful, poetic way, if that makes sense thank you just my opinion.

Speaker 1 4:36

Okay, so I'm going to get to the rote question that we talked about, and we like to start out this way, just to kind of keep on brand for us, and then we're sort of collecting for a highlights reel the different responses to this question. So, as we said a moment ago, it's really beautiful how there's no right answer to this question, but there are recurring themes or outlooks or worldviews that seem to come up. So we just love the different ways in which people express the response to this question. What do you feel has been traditionally the role of storytelling and culture, without over explaining it? We did say it's culturally relative, of course, and then storytelling is so broad that's the whole premise of our podcast that storytelling could apply to cinema, the literary realm, every aspect of life, including propaganda and advertising. So what do you traditionally is the role of story in culture?

Speaker 2 5:36

I think it's passed down the legacy and the heritage to the next generation. And also it's about history, Because there's one expression I just recently learned from another podcast interview.

Speaker 1 5:48

I was listening.

Speaker 2 5:49

This person said historical fiction humanizes history. So that's just such a wonderful description. So it makes history human and more personal and close to us. It's way more interesting than just read a history book. And there's another expression that people share is history is written by victors.

Speaker 1 6:21

Right right.

Speaker 2 6:23

Official history may not be 100% accurate, especially in countries like China.

Speaker 1 6:28

Absolutely yes, so you get to tell the true story behind the propaganda really it's extremely important.

Speaker 1 6:37

I agree. Yeah, we did have a Harvard literature professor on who specialized in historical fiction, and I think he did talk about a little bit how, when you're colonized especially, a lot of voices get silenced and erased and it is so important for indigenous peoples to not just keep the traditional life but tell those stories of the colonized exactly, and I believe story sharing foster understanding and um, because essentially human being there's, we're the same, we're human before we're chinese or tibetan or, you know, american, we're human first.

Speaker 2 7:19

So those like our psychology, physiology and emotions are basically same. We all, uh, like to have happiness, health, we long for love, friendship and we don't want to suffer. But the story told from different cultures, fostering that understanding. With understanding then there comes to love, compassion and hopefully that will reduce the conflicts among different groups and among different religions and different country even yes I think that's one hopes.

Speaker 1 7:56

That's why we're doing it right.

Speaker 1 7:58

We hope yeah, that's vitally important absolutely, yeah, I think all creative efforts, art, you know, literature exposes our shared humanity. Right, like you said, we're all just human. But studies have shown that empathy and compassion which you mentioned and virginia has talked about quite a bit, you know you, you nurture that. For the other, you know children that read not commercial fiction so much, but literary fiction studies show they end up actually having way more empathy and compassion for the other cultures they might not have been exposed to otherwise, because they do tap into that shared humanity. Anyway, we're saying the same thing, but, thank you, I loved those words. You know you also, we're kind of jumping ahead here. But you also said in another interview a phrase that I really had never heard it put this way but fell in love with that one of the main motivators for storytellers is to right a wrong. Can you expand on that a little bit? That blew my mind and it's so true.

Speaker 2 9:00

Actually, I read it from somewhere based on a survey conducted among different writers, and that's number one reason for us to write stories.

Speaker 1 9:13

It's interesting if it was based on a survey that the authors themselves identified as such, that they were in touch with that. Because it took me a minute. I thought, well, I've never really said that, but I've said it in different words. But when I saw that interview with you I thought that is interesting. I would have said traditionally I write to, it sounds condescending, different words. But when I saw that interview with you I thought that is interesting. I I would have said traditionally I write to. It sounds condescending, right, but to enlighten people or maybe just inspire them, get them to look beyond their end of their fucking nose, I say sometimes, you know, get them I don't know, just maybe anything but the surface of things, get them to look at the subtext of life. But when I heard right or wrong, I was like that is absolutely true. You know, I think some of the injustices in my I would have said I do it to cleanse the world, I do it to find my way of moving forward. If that makes sense, the catharsis for me is restoring.

Speaker 2 10:11

And then, after I heard your quote, I thought I am right, a wrong, because I'm trying to restore justice in the world. As I see it, exactly um, especially for us like chinese we have suffered generations and after generations. And um what? What can you do? Um? There's another expression said a pen is mightier than sword, right sword say that again.

Speaker 1 10:32

I'm sorry. What's the expression?

Speaker 2 10:34

a pen is mightier than ah, yes, yes, sword, yes, yes so, other than writing and sharing, there's not much you can do, and this is the most peaceful method to to fight back well, it might be the only way to persuade that is one of the premises of my book, which became this podcast.

Speaker 1 10:54

Is the didactic realm of persuasion like rhetoric, as I think you mentioned in one of your interviews, it only goes so far, whereas when you engage the emotions and all the chemical things that come along with storytelling, you're much more likely to change thought forms and paradigms. So I like what you said about you know you're not just documenting history, but you're investing people emotionally, which that isn't the only thing that changes the paradigms exactly, yeah beautiful.

The House Filler: Plot and Historical Context

Speaker 1 11:23

well, maybe we'll get into that. I do want to ask you later do you feel there has been progress, especially in terms of women's issues and maybe societal norms and the empowerment of women, if there has been a change in China? But I also just want to say you know, what we're talking about here is more crucial now than ever in America because, as you know, fascism is looming on the horizon, so I'm not going to compare our history to China's. You've had a lot more injustices, I'm sure, but right now it's so important that we writers use our voices Exactly yeah, yeah, stay in Canada.

Speaker 2 11:58

Stay in.

Speaker 1 11:58

Canada I don't have any Sorry.

Speaker 2 12:02

I don't have other plans.

Speaker 1 12:04

Yeah, perfect. Okay, so, before we get because we're getting to some nuanced stuff that I very much want to pursue, but would you mind, for the listeners, because I do think it's always better coming from the author him or herself give us a little synopsis of the House Filler, if you would?

Speaker 2 12:21

Yeah, the House Filler is told through the experience of Golden Phoenix, a woman who faces war, poverty and political oppression as she fights for survival, freedom and happiness. Um, the time period covered in the book is from 1920 to 1966. Um, she was. Golden phoenix was born at a time that a woman's beauty was not measured by her looks but by the size of her feet. The tinier the feet, the more desirable. So for chinese parents, um, they would bend their daughter's feet at age four or five.

Speaker 2 12:59

Golden phoenix being a motherless child, her father delayed the process until she was six. So she ended up with a pair of feet that one inch too large, because ideal size was three twin in chinese measurement. So that's about four inches long. That's ideal. That would um most likely to secure a good marriage, right. But because her feet was not, uh was one inch too long, she missed her ideal marriage age until she was 26. So she ended up marrying a widow. So in Chinese culture, in the old time when women didn't have much rights, a woman who married a widow is called a house failure. So that's where the title of the book, right, comes from.

Speaker 2 13:52

And then, after the untimely death of her husband, golden phoenix is determined to keep her family together. However, poverty faces her forces her to make the heart-wrenching decisions to give her teenager twins to the right army during the upheaval of the Japanese invasion of her hometown. She is separated from her two young girls and her remaining son leaves to fight with the Nationalist Army. Golden Phoenix, along with her adopted son, remains to endure the horror and the hardship of war. When the Civil War ended and communists in power in 1949, one of her twins, a member of the Communist Party, is wrongly accused of being a traitor and is sentenced to death. Golden Phoenix and her family must find a way to save her son's life.

Speaker 1 14:45

Right. Does that happen in the first book, or is that the second book?

Speaker 2 14:49

First book.

Speaker 1 14:50

Oh, really, so we get to see the resolution of that effort to save the life of her son.

Speaker 2 14:57

Yes.

Speaker 1 14:58

Oh, okay, I thought for some reason that was in the second book. Wasn't there also a son-in-law that was executed by? Okay, yeah, that's a lot man, that lot a lot of trauma and I don't well. Virginia, did she mention the two daughters that she gave to the red army before? I think he left that out, didn't she? As a way out of poverty, she, she let two of her sons join the red army right yes, twin, twin sons.

Speaker 1 15:29

Yeah, okay, yeah, that's a lot of trauma, potential trauma there. Right, intergenerational trauma. Um, the first first thing I want to say is you know, I've always heard about the feet binding and was aware of it, but until reading your synopsis and part of the book never had I googled it. It is horrific to look at oh, you did oh yeah well, pictures of actual bound feet. It's horrific.

Speaker 2 15:56

I have a reader told me she regretted that she googled it you can't unsee it.

Speaker 3 16:04

I've never. I didn't google it because I remembered when I was a preteen and it's actually there at the Hollywood Ripley's believe it or not, Dominic, but my dad and I went there and there's a section that has the shoes and images of that time frame.

Speaker 1 16:27

Did you know before seeing that that the toes literally fold under and I just didn't know they would dislocate and break the toes? I had no idea.

Speaker 3 16:35

I had no idea until I went to Ripley's and it was in there and I was like, oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 16:41

To me, though, tell me if I mean. Clearly, this crossed your mind, I'm sure it's so emblematic of all the ways in which right it's so emblematic of all the ways in which right women are, I don't know, imprisoned by these social constructs and, uh, patriarchy. Frankly, you know, it's just the perfect symbol of the way we cripple women exactly, not only physically, but uh uh.

Speaker 2 17:04

In china, in a way, back when girls are not valued as much as boys and most families don't think girls deserve education, so they deny their education. So this is a vicious circle, because when girls don't have enough education they cannot make a living. When they couldn't make a living, then they have to rely on men. When they have to rely on men, they have to do things to please the men. So include footbending and that for their disabled, them, especially when the war happens. You know people need to run, you know, from bombing, imagine with like a bomb feet. That's extremely hard for women, extremely so they're, they're deprived of physically and emotionally and mentally, and you know, in all aspects well, and you know western european judeo, judeo-christian culture.

Speaker 1 18:05

We've always joked like well, high heels are meant to put women right ill adept, to make women ill adept, but it's under the guise of beauty, right exactly but it's seen as a little bit of a conspiracy theory. This is very clear to me. It's under the guise of beauty, but actually it makes them second-class citizens because they're literally, you know, disabled.

Speaker 2 18:29

So not only high heels is a, uh, a light form of of that you know, social expectation we're talking about. You know plexus surgery, you know breast breast, implement, implementation all that stuff.

Speaker 1 18:45

Well, since we're into this territory, I really loved hearing what you said about the ways in which your grandmother and it sounded like other people in the village would try to empower the next generation of women by. Can you tell that story of planting the stool outside the window at school or even leaving your backpack at a friend's house? Do you remember that? Yes, they slightly, gave their daughters more tools than they had.

Speaker 2 19:14

Yeah, the story is based on my grandmother's real-life story. So she was, her father hired private tutors for her brothers, but she was not allowed to enter the classroom. So this is real, like happened in real life she would. When father went out to work, she would carry a stool and place it under the window outside of the classroom and try to listen into the class. Later, when she had two girls, her husband, being traditional and old-fashioned, wouldn't want the girls to go to public school and then she registered them behind his back and they managed to hide that until he passed away, like for the first few years of their girl's life. But she realized how important education was to girls and she put her feet down and she was going to do something defy the social norm.

Speaker 1 20:15

Yeah, so she sent them to school she sent them to school, while the husband was away at work. But then didn't you say something like they would leave their backpack backpacks at a friend's house and just the mother would say, oh, they were out playing backpacks at a friend's house and just the mother would say oh, they were out playing. Yeah, exactly, I just think it's really beautiful that she saw we can make a difference generationally, you know.

Speaker 2 20:37

Yeah.

Speaker 1 20:38

So I guess that leads to my question I hinted at a moment ago Do you feel there has been progress? I think here in the States we just assume communism is you know we have a knee-jerk reaction to communism and there's a lot of myths. Is you know we have a knee-jerk reaction to communism and there's a lot of myths, you know. So I just wonder if you feel there has been progress in terms of empowerment for women yes, um, actually, starting in 2012, the republicans in China abolished food binding.

Speaker 2 21:18

So even though it was abolished, but people still do that.

Speaker 1 21:22

I think you said the latest case was in the 50s, was it? Yeah? Documented case Okay.

Speaker 2 21:27

Yeah, latest in a remote village in China, china, because there's too remote and the villagers didn't know.

Foot Binding and Women's Oppression

Speaker 1 21:33

the outside world has changed, right, right yeah, well, I guess that's what I was thinking too when you said you know that it became a republic. I thought, yeah, but norms are a little slower to change. Right, it doesn't matter who the regime is.

Speaker 2 21:46

Norms and mores, and you know, social constructs are kind of slow to change yeah, and also it depends on, like with elite families, they, they embrace change earlier on, right because of education or why? Education um view like they're. Uh, they would go to other countries, send their children abroad to study.

Speaker 1 22:11

Yeah, more exposure.

Speaker 2 22:13

Exactly yeah, and the remote villagers, the people who didn't have education, would change very slow Well.

Speaker 1 22:22

I think that's true everywhere, isn't it? Virginia? Yeah, that's where the most conservative folk are.

Speaker 3 22:27

here are in the not the urban areas, but the yeah, so when you get more out into the rural areas you definitely see people hold on to their way of life more steadfastly and it's because they also see it as a way of survival. Because I see that here I'm in the state of Utah. I'm originally from California and there's definitely a difference between the more like Salt Lake City where I'm at and St George. That's a little bit more city-ish. I just don't consider them quite as city in my brain.

Speaker 3 23:03

Just because I'm from LA, but that's just because of that it's all relative, isn't it?

Speaker 1 23:07

Yeah, it's all relative.

Speaker 3 23:08

Like Salt Lake? Yes, that's just because of that, um, it's all relative, isn't it? Yeah, it's all relative like salt lake? Yes, saint george, not so much, but, um, but yeah, I mean they're, they're definitely more, not so much metropolitan, but definitely more cityish in in their way. But you get out to like I have a, I have a step step brother, so I have a brother-in-law who's from delta, which you guys are both like. I, like I hardly even know you talk, what the heck? Yeah, there's a called Delta. There's actually a place called holiday. That's even worse than Delta, I guess.

Speaker 3 23:31

Um, and how rural it is, like very small population of people, and I get it Like. You know, they're living off literally, I mean their, their livelihood is being mostly ranchers, farmers, you know, living off the land. That is how they make money, that is how they survive, and so to try and modernize and get, you know, I, I, and I mean that's just here in the us, so I could, I couldn't even imagine in other countries what that's like, where there's the cultural differences from our way of life as well, you know, when you get into those rural areas yeah, it's, it's logical, right.

Speaker 1 24:08

I mean sorry, tong, we'll get back on track in a minute, but I think it's logical to a degree I have. You know, we've seen it all right when you have elites saying let's save the spotted owl in the American Northwest, but then there's loggers whose livelihoods have depended on it for generations. You can't just, with a swipe of a pen, take away their livelihood. So it just makes sense. You know, farmers, like you said, they're clinging to their way of life because it's all they know. And then sometimes the more cultured, educated elites come in and just want progress to happen overnight. But they're not working with the system, you know. Anyway, I'm so sorry for that, but I do.

Speaker 2 24:44

Oh, that's wonderful.

Speaker 1 24:46

Well, it's related. I hope, yeah, but I want to ask you because I do, we're getting some good stuff here. But maybe backtrack a little bit and I just maybe what inspired you to tell firstly your grandmother's story and what inspired it in the first place, and then what? What was the process of researching not just history but your family history?

Speaker 2 25:09

My mother was a storyteller, so ever since I was a child she has been telling me her family side of story. So I was familiar with those stories growing up. I met my grandmother once before she passed away.

Speaker 2 25:23

But, as I said, I think writing story is a way to right the wrong. When I was in junior high, I wanted to be a writer, but my life didn't well. My path took a long detour, until now, yeah. So it's just that the story is too fascinating. If I just tell somebody verbally about my family story, they will say hey, that's, that's a book. Enough drama there. You really should write it. But I am also influenced by my father, um, from a young age, so I fell in love with storytelling.

Speaker 1 26:05

What does he do, or what's his background?

Speaker 2 26:06

Uh, he was a scientist and a professor, but uh, what does he do? Or what's his background? He was a scientist and a professor, but he had deep knowledge of Chinese literature and history and when I was a child, he has been telling me those stories. In history During the Cultural Revolution I don't know if you're familiar with that between 1966 and 1976 in China, I'll be honest, you've made me do some research here.

Speaker 1 26:34

You know I'm blissfully ignorant to much of Chinese history, but I did. I got a little confused because everything coincided with World War II, right. It's like they put things on hold. The revolution, right, was put on hold for World War II, and then it got all kind of conflated, didn't it?

Speaker 2 26:53

well, that was uh before 1949. Now we're talking about after 1949 that communists took over power oh, was that after okay yeah, I I know

Speaker 3 27:02

I know very little, only because my husband's a huge history buff and so he really loves reading other um countries history outside of. So going outside the us, like finding stuff that's been translated into english from other countries and um, hearing that your father was a professor, I was like oh my gosh, because I know a lot of scientists and people who were into the arts um, during that time had to be mindful too well, I knew that the communist it was basically a communist um revolution, right, and then you had the nationalists, but I thought that was the conclusion of world war ii.

Speaker 1 27:45

So a lot of the developments took place after world war ii, in other words, yeah after, yes, after the second sino-japanese war then, china had three years of civil war and at the end of that communists took over power in 1949.

Speaker 2 28:01

So they call it liberation.

Speaker 2 28:03

So we were liberated, liberated in 1949 in quotes, right in quotes yeah, and so during the Cultural Revolution the whole country was a chaos. They targeted the intellectuals At the beginning, targeted politicians like government officials. There's no justice system, there's no police, there's no law and order. Anybody can beat anybody to death. So my father was locked up. It's not even a formal arrest or prison, it's like a mid-shift lockup. It's almost like a concentration camp. They're called car shed. So he was locked up for, uh, I think about two years. Then he was released, um in 19, I think in 1970 or end of 1969, but he was uh, his job was suspended. He, he still have to um join the political meetings every evening, but we had a power outage two or three times a week yeah so when that happened.

Speaker 2 29:13

Yeah, this is good yeah, then he stayed home and then we would, you know, cover up our windows and light, lighted a single candle and he would take out this book. Um, the collection for fantasy, like short stories of fantasy, it's called the strange tales from a chinese studio was written by a guy in qing dynasty. Like this, guy spent 40 years of his life his entire life to write this is it ancient chinese?

Speaker 1 29:42

in other words, as opposed to modern classic chinese.

Speaker 2 29:44

um, it's not modern, it's classic, yeah, but a generation like my father. They understood right. Then he would translate into modern language and told the stories in this nice to my mother and myself, and that's when I began to fall in love with storytelling.

Speaker 1 30:06

It's a beautiful image just around a single candle.

Speaker 2 30:09

The book was banned.

Speaker 3 30:10

If it's if we were fun, it will be wow yeah, so I was gonna, I was that's what I was gonna ask. That, you know, was because I want to say, during that time there was certain literature that was only allowed as, so you had to be really careful. So I think that's amazing that your father still wanted to instill that in you guys growing up.

Speaker 1 30:29

Um, you know so, you, but that that is the power of storytelling, isn't it? That it survives despite? You know, a friend of mine was a curator at the skirball and I went to a marriage contract exhibit of, you know, jewish marriage contracts throughout the ages and it was kind of the first time I realized, wow, you know, it's kind of a small miracle that the traditions survived under really harsh circumstances globally and it is because of people with a single candle in an attic, preserving some kind of legacy, whether it's the literature right or a faith. So I think that's the beautiful part of storytelling, frankly, is that's how it survives. That's how we're going to survive this fascist dictatorship is the storytelling.

Speaker 1 31:18

I'm sorry, it's always that way.

Speaker 3 31:20

Well, I think it goes right to what Tonga has been sharing too. When you talked about the survey and how it's writings, is writing the wrong. I think that's why people are so scared sometimes of writers and books. They're powerful.

Speaker 2 31:44

It's very powerful Chinese history when there's a political upheaval or answer turbulence um campaigns um. After 1949, every political campaign intellectuals were the targets yeah, well, look at Hitler.

Speaker 1 32:01

I'm gonna say it. You know, of course, hitler was not just a frustrated artist, but there's a reason they censored all creatives. And a more recent, oh, isis. What do they do? The first thing they do is take sledgehammers to the sculptures. So you write histories written by the winners. So every regime tries to rewrite history and, frankly, erase and silence the legacy. Anyway, so that your father's practice of you know telling stories to you, and you said your mother was a born storyteller so you were getting oral histories from her. What was the precise moment where you decided to put pen to paper and tell this story?

Speaker 2 32:43

2004. That's 20 years ago.

Speaker 1 32:47

I needed the hour and the minute.

Speaker 2 32:49

Oh, I was on disability leave. Actually, I was disabled at work from the injury. I have repetitive strain injuries on my both arms because of too much computer work, so I was on disability leave in 2002. By 2004, my disability leave ended, but I couldn't return to work because my injury is permanent did you have the carpal tunnel surgery? It's not carpal tunnel.

Family Stories and Research Process

Speaker 2 33:22

My repetitive motion okay yeah, it's worse than carpet tunnel. Okay, so sorry. One day I was in the garden, um gardening, and, uh, an inspiration just came and I decided to start, because I I before that I didn't know which angle I should use until that moment. So I decided to write a series of letters, like one sister in Canada wrote these letters to other sister in China and I started in Chinese. But after 17 letters I couldn't continue Because of my hands I couldn't handle the computer work and also because I realized that if I write in Chinese I don't have any resource, any support.

Speaker 2 34:05

here I couldn't find beta readers or join a group freelance editors, you know, even publishers is just out of my reach. So then I stopped until 2006 and restarted. Uh well, actually I started with taking creative writing courses and then restarted in english. Write it, write it in english. Um in, that's a long journey. But in terms of research you were asking earlier, I, you know, like my mother's story is pretty. It's really helpful. But I also realized that I need to interview my other relatives and to either conform or not conform her version of the story or provide additional information, and during these interviews I discovered more stuff from our family history. That was 2015. I went back to China and did that.

Speaker 1 35:07

Sorry to interrupt you. Did you record them audio or just listen? And then write later.

Speaker 2 35:14

Yeah, just talk, but I have done lots of research on internet. Internet is a great thing. Without internet, I think it takes much longer. About important historical events I need to be accurate. For important historical figures and events I need to be accurate. For important historical figures and events, I need to be accurate and I did tons of research of that. And I think it's so impressive about this internet because I was able to purchase the newspapers published at the time.

Speaker 1 35:45

Wow, Like physical copies of them.

Speaker 2 35:49

Copies Digital Photo copies yeahocopies.

Speaker 1 35:52

Yeah, okay, digital copies um online from my grandmother's hometown during the time I was writing it's beautiful that they archive them, like before the interwebs we used to have. You would go to the library. They had them on microfiche, so if you knew how to do it you could get anything that was recorded on microfiche. But thank God for the internet. I get down on it sometimes, but that is like one of the pluses, right.

Speaker 2 36:21

You have to know this is during the war in 1930s and 40s. Amazing, it's amazing, it's totally amazing. Yeah, so I got lots full stuff from there and some parts, um, even though I say 90 of the material are based on my grandmother's story, but there's 10, you know, I got it from research even some part directly quoted from library sorry library, sorry newspaper right, right.

Speaker 1 36:47

Well, real, back to family. Did you get any conflicting reports, anything that conflicted with your grandmother's oral histories? I mean, everybody sees things differently, so that's one of the things I wonder about, if different family members are invested in one version of a story and others might be invested in another. Any conflicting stuff and any surprises.

Speaker 2 37:12

I would say just additional information and the surprises. Because by talking with my cousin I finally realized that my grandmother was raped by the Japanese soldiers. My mother, I don't think my grandmother ever told my mother that. My mother, I don't think my grandmother ever told my mother that. And uh, he, she told my cousin just one version, but I, we, we suspect we believe it's more she, she didn't tell like a gun rape. She never told that.

Speaker 1 37:43

But we did it explain anything to you to learn that? Um, I don't know if that makes sense he, he is my cousin, no, but did it explain anything about your grandmother? To know that you know those are life-changing events.

Speaker 2 37:58

Yeah, sorry, I didn't quite get your question.

Speaker 1 38:02

I don't know. I think when we learn what made our parents who they are, or made our grandparents who they are, it kind of explains who they became, you know.

Speaker 2 38:13

Yeah, yeah, I have that revolution. Yes, they explained who she was and that enriched my writing. Yes who she was and, uh, that enriched my writing.

Speaker 1 38:30

Yes, another big surprise is her romantic relationship with this uh young guy? Well, tell us more please.

Speaker 3 38:34

Yeah, because that's not a very common thing for that generation in general um, you want to like, okay, I'll tell you.

Speaker 2 38:42

The fictional fictional fictionalized the story, but the real life is really, really close. This young, a teenager boy wandered into Kaifeng, where that was my grandma's hometown, and then, after, like, her husband passed away, all her boys joined the army and she just adopted this, this person, this young guy, son, right. So? So she was 27 years older than this boy and when the boy became a man, they had a romantic relationship. But that was a taboo because in China, you know, at the time, a man can marry more than one woman, and a man is 20, 30, 40 years older is not normal. But a woman, an older woman, involved with a younger man, that was a scandal. So they never publicly admitted that it's like a secret love. Uh, admitted that it's like a secret love, right and uh.

Speaker 2 39:50

But I actually, I would say I've discovered this actually from my mother, not from my cousins or, um, aunts and uncles uh, in a in a different way, like my mother said something, like my aunt told her, because my aunt was living with my grandma during the japanese occupation. So my aunt told my mother you know, do you know? Uh, our mother is involved with you, know so and so, because they all live in the same complex. And my mother, when my mother told me, my mother, my mother said how could your aunt be so like? Basically blame my aunt for tarnishing my grandmother's reputation.

Speaker 1 40:28

Right, right. Well, that's kind of what I was hinting at earlier. You know you have family members that want to kind of preserve the. Sometimes we want to protect families and tell the same story over and over again, but it's not the full story, you know.

Speaker 2 40:42

Yes, but this young man right, they spent all their life together and he never married. He refused to get married and insisted to be not, you know, like at my grandmother's side. So he has been calling my grandmother aunt, but they're not really related by blood.

Speaker 1 41:06

That very romantic, isn't it? Yeah, because the stakes are so high.

Speaker 2 41:11

It's forbidden love, but the stakes are so high yeah, but um, when I was writing this story, I hired a manuscript evaluator. Actually I did this twice once twice. Once I hired an American guy and that was pretty good. His suggestions were very constructive. Second time it was a bland match. Now I know I would never do that. Bland match means you submit your work to this organization. They will match somebody with you, but you don't know who. You don't know who is this person. After she read that part, she was really, really harsh on me. She said you know you, you would, you will insult your publisher, your right, your readers, everyone. How could you write something like that?

Speaker 1 41:56

what?

Speaker 3 41:56

that's not her job yeah, I'm kind of surprised by that too that's not her job you? I thought you were going to say.

Speaker 1 42:03

She said that's not believable because life is stranger than fiction, right?

Speaker 2 42:08

Yeah, she said you're insulting everyone by including this part.

Speaker 1 42:13

Well, that's a logical concern, I think anybody that tells truth the good, the bad and the ugly in their writing runs that risk. So it does lead me to a question why did you choose to fictionalize it as opposed to just calling it strict biography or even narrative nonfiction?

Speaker 2 42:31

Because, first of all, I don't know what I heard is 100% accurate. Second, I don't know how to write a nonfiction with all the details being accurate. I don't know what is a line. So if I write a non-fiction with all the details being accurate, I don't know what is a line. So if I write a fiction, then, um, I have more freedom exactly, yeah especially, you know, for for story to work I need to consolidate some characters, because, things happen to different people.

Speaker 1 42:58

If you just write as it is, it's not a good story yeah, I think it's tricky too, because when you start using dialogue, who really remembers the precise words that were used? But then, when you apply artistic license, you can create full conversations and it's not as crucial, if that makes sense exactly yeah, a lot more, and there's a certain sorry, there's certain gaps in the story.

Speaker 2 43:23

I have to feel it.

Speaker 1 43:24

Exactly.

Speaker 2 43:25

So I need that freedom, creative freedom.

Speaker 3 43:28

I also like that you mentioned that you know in life there's multiple characters in our lives. You know individuals that we interact with and trying to put I mean, think about just you know as individual people, you know daily that don't have a phenomenal story and you know where it's all flashy to put into a nonfiction storyline. If you just try to write your normal biography or autobiography anyhow, people would get lost because you're like, well, wait, who's this Like? I have a Justin and a Dustin and an Austin all in my life and I mean those three names are just similar.

Speaker 1 44:07

So trying to like distinguish who those?

Speaker 3 44:08

three people were again.

Speaker 2 44:10

Just be easier, just make them all one person exactly, and also about emotion, right, because emotion is a big part of storytelling. So for for non-fiction is pretty hard. How do I know that person's emotion after a catastrophic event? How do I know what does that person think or feel, or yeah, I call it upping the stakes.

Speaker 1 44:32

if you're going to tell a story, you know how to right reach people in the mind, the heart and the gut. And so if you can heighten the emotions by telescoping or you know I that's why I write in an omniscient voice, cause then I can get inside everybody's head, right. But if you're just doing strict biography, it's all speculation. You don't know what that person was thinking or that character was thinking. So I think you did the right thing.

Speaker 2 44:56

Fictionalizing it. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 1 45:03

Well, I have a written down question question. I'm going to just read it. Um, there is a sentiment that we must remember the horrors of history lest they repeat themselves. Historical fiction often documents those horrors in a narrative format, making it very immediate for the reader. Actually, that's what we were just talking about making it emotionally. You not just preachy or didactic, but making it emotional.

Speaker 1 45:24

So what role did documentation play for you and did you have a desired outcome in mind? I guess the real question I'm getting to is just, with the synopsis you've shared and a little bit of reading I was able to do, it's easy to assume that this is a story about resilience it clearly is, you know and overcoming, maybe persistence, but I think there's probably more there. Did you have an intention, thematically, or did something evolve organically that you didn't expect in terms of I'm not going to say the message, but the themes that evolved? That's a good question. I let me think it's about or empowerment is another word that came to mind it's resilience, the phoenix, I mean it's right there, right, overcoming and persisting, but it seemed to also be about, uh, whatever I just said, um, empowerment, obviously female empowerment.

Speaker 1 46:25

She took her power back at some point, seemingly yeah, yeah, definitely he fought, she fought back yeah, but I kind of and don't take this the wrong way but it reminded me a little bit of, I mean, obviously, mulan was about empowerment, but uh, gone with the wind. You know, when you put it in a historical context or backdrop, you get to see how one builds character from these trials and tribulations. So, to me, gone with the wind was largely about, yeah, resilience, yeah, persistence, but actually the character that one builds, uh, through trials. So, yeah, if you could just talk to the main themes and I know love was one of them Maybe you could talk about the theme of love. It was her bond with her children that drove her. What role did love play?

Speaker 2 47:14

Well, love kept her alive.

Speaker 1 47:16

It's everything. It's everything yes.

Speaker 2 47:20

Yeah, her love for her children, her love for her husband, her love for her family and also her love for her children, her love for her husband, her love for her family and also her love for her lover. That's said empowerment, and that does not come from a speech, or what do you call that?

Speaker 1 47:49

Oh, like persuasion Head talk Right, right, right.

Speaker 2 47:53

It's from the horrible, horrible life experience. So either something either kill you or make you stronger, right? So when she was not killed, she decided to fight back. And that's like from the middle of the book, like a second half. But this is not a typical like a hollywood happy ending story. It's not. It takes three generations to really finally reach the land of freedom. So that's why there's three books in this theory, and this is just the. This book is based on the first generation, then the next two books are based on next two generations. It really takes three generations of struggle and um, you know to to reach that right.

Grandmother's Secret Romance

Speaker 1 48:40

Well, I don't want to get too technical, but we talk about intergenerational trauma on this podcast a lot, and I just called the baggage of your parents. Right, there's always unfinished business or baggage. Sometimes it's not even examined, we're not even aware of it. Surely that theme came up. I mean, I happen to love Wuthering Heights because it shows from one generation to the next how we carry on, even in our cellular memory, in our bodies. You know Scarlet Letter was about that how only by showing multiple generations can you see how this stuff is passed on, and either you have a cycle breaker who deals with it or it just gets perpetuated. So did any of that come to mind while writing it? Like how the trauma that your grandmother experienced then affected subsequent generations?

Speaker 2 49:27

I think it makes us stronger tougher because that's the only way to survive. There's no other way, and I think that's written in our DNA, not only our family, but, I think, maybe a whole generation.

Speaker 1 49:43

Yeah, Virginia, you've talked about resilience being an epigenetic outcome, right?

Speaker 3 49:48

Yeah, there's actually been research studies that there is a. It was called. They refer to it as resilient gene and not everybody who has trauma in their life has it, but it does crop up. So the ones who if you have two people who've experienced a lot of, you know, traumatic experiences in their lives there's they found the ones who tend to be more resilient tend to work through it. You know and I'm not saying I mean not that everybody doesn't need therapy in those situations, it benefits everybody. But you know, if they don't have it, they just innately because of that resilient gene and so they see that with um families who have generational trauma, that that gene tends to show up in the dna line, right well, it's, yeah, the nature versus nurture thing right If, if the methyl groups that are going to express the gene are only a product of your thoughts and feelings and your environment, right.

Speaker 1 50:52

And so sometimes, when we hear the horrors of history from our grandparents, it perpetuates a disempowering narrative, if that makes sense, empowering narrative, if that makes sense. But I I think one of the outcomes has to be and tell me what feedback you're getting, whether it's from reviews or just anecdotally from readers. I think it would put things in perspective for sure and I'd go wow, my problems are pretty small by comparison, or at least, if she can do it, I can do it.

Speaker 2 51:20

You know, yeah, I uh. Well feedback I got from readers. They they love it. They can't put it down. They are waiting for my next book, um and about, uh, you know, the gene or genetic um, resilient, I think. If some things are horrible happened to to a person, or to a family, or to a generation, um it well, I wouldn't say to a generation, to a person, it either break you or made you stronger. There's no any other way. So, as you said, yeah, not everyone um comes out stronger, but uh, um, in my story, yes, she comes out stronger and uh so as the next two generations yeah, yeah, but that's inspiring to people.

Speaker 1 52:02

I'm sure you know. Again, it does put our problems in perspective, but I also feel like it's inspiring because you see, despite great odds, a character can overcome, you know exactly.

Speaker 2 52:16

Yeah, what she has experienced, what her generation has experienced, is so much worse than what we're we have experienced. So when you put everything in perspective, you, you know it's you, your obstacles, your problems, your sufferings is, uh, seems like a handleable, like it's, you can overcome it, you can survive.

Speaker 3 52:40

Last place, yeah, I would say she Last place, yeah, perspective on where our strengths are and where our weaknesses are and how you know, binding that resilience within ourselves, even if we have to like lean on you know someone, like you know the phoenix here, and be like I'm gonna lean on this person because they did it. So if they can do it, I can do it.

Speaker 2 53:18

you know, pull that string not only that, um, I don. I wish what I'm going to say next I want to make you guys think I'm crazy or weird, or I have been in touch with my grandmother, um, in the last 20 years through mediums and she knew I wrote this book. She was madly proud of me, um. But there's one time, um, I was in a critique group and you know we have a, we have an open door policy, so whoever want to drop, drop in. Well, this part, they're welcome. So that when I was writing this book, in that critique session, I was sharing um short like a story essay about, uh, my experience when I was young. I was sexually assaulted and it was extremely hard for me to share that that day there's a drop-in person. She was never a part of that group before and never since but she just dropped in that day.

Speaker 2 54:19

She was once Miss Calgary, very beautiful woman in her, I think she was 30 or 31. And so she joined our critique group and after the session because I was sharing my story, that after the session, she said you know, I'd like to go out with you for coffee. That was like 9.30 pm. I was thinking like what's going on, and she said I'd really like to have coffee with you, like just a short one, is that okay? I said okay, sure.

Speaker 2 54:45

So we went to next door, uh, the restaurant next door, and when we sat down she told me. She said you know, I have psychic power. I'm not a medium, but I have psychic power. She said, while you were sharing your stories, there's an old chinese lady stood behind you and her, her hands were on your shoulder shoulders and she said she want me to tell you, um, she has experienced way, way worse than what you have experienced. So, you know, basically try to say that it's. You know, if you put everything in perspective, you can overcome this. You know it's really happened. And after that I never see this lady again.

Speaker 1 55:28

That's amazing yeah.

Speaker 3 55:31

And I believe things like that happen. I know Dominic has stories that are right along those lines. I've had them too, and I believe that even when our loved ones pass on, that, I believe we can pull from that strength and that they do come and put that strength you know, pour their strength into us so we can get through those times. So that's just beautiful.

Speaker 1 55:52

Yeah, Exactly. Well, there's also this idea of spiritual contracts. Right, you have agreements with people and they enter your lives, right? It might just be for 30 seconds, but sometimes you get what's needed if that makes sense in your journey, and I've had some ominous things happen.

Speaker 2 56:09

Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 56:10

You know, like the power of suggestion, I've had some predictions made and then it's just the law of attraction, you know, it just actually comes to pass. But yeah, spiritual contracts, agreements, and we're not going to figure out all the mysteries of the universe, right. But I, I think there's a. We're going to figure it out on a quantum mechanics level at some point. What's going on there with all those little consciousness particles?

Speaker 1 56:36

yeah, your story sounds fascinating too oh, the one I just hinted at. Yeah, no, it was haunting. You know, I rarely God, I don't want to say it.

Speaker 1 56:49

I mean it was so weird, it was just at a Starbucks. Same thing Just at a Starbucks, complete stranger. And she said you know, we have had two evidential psychics on this podcast, by the way and they say they understand there's a lot of responsibility, so you don't issue unsolicited do you know what I mean like predictions or advice. Okay, it's kind of like you know they say unsolicited advice is always criticism, but they just are aware of the responsibility and this woman was not and she said you have to know, big things happen to people after they meet me.

Speaker 1 57:26

And I, of course, I go good things right, like I'm going to win the lottery, right? I was kidding, I just said good things right, and she goes, just big things. Oh, so that was haunting to me and I walked away with a little negative feeling and I never saw her again. And that's when I ended up in the hospital for 18 days. Virginia, oh no, yes, yeah, it's, everything's changed. So my whole world has changed as a result of this brush with death. But she energetically saw something on the horizon and she was not wrong, you know. But then you know, we're all. We all connect dots. Our little psyches like to connect dots. So who knows? But it is. Those are the facts, ma'am.

Speaker 2 58:05

Oh, wow, yeah.

Speaker 1 58:07

So you're not freaking us out at all, we're.

Speaker 3 58:11

You're my kindred spirits when it comes to that, to that one no-transcript. And I have seen family members who have passed literally visibly in front of me help give me, you know, just either by seeing them like a feeling will overcome me, or like I barely hear like something being whispered, and then, like I do the seeing them like a feeling will overcome me, or like I barely hear like something being whispered, and then, like I do the double take, like did that just happen, kind of thing, and then inspirations you know has hit to help make me go down a different path. That was a way better path than the one I could have taken. So, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 59:03

Well, that actually leads to, hopefully, a legitimate question, isn't there? So I pray to my mom, you know, I feel like, yeah, there's still a connection there, absolutely. But I sometimes find myself just hey, mom, come visit tonight in my dream. You know, it's been a while, come visit. But then I I'm like, am I praying to God or my mom? But I think in many cultures there's the idea that you do have spirit guides, and in Chinese culture, isn't it true specifically, your ancestors are watching over you or that you're meant to commune with them in some way.

Speaker 2 59:37

Well before 1949, china was a Buddhist country, right? So Buddhists believe in reincarnation. And now I don't know, know, some people believe, some people don't. It's just very mixed um. But I I do same thing as you. Sometimes I don't know if I pray to god or right to your ancestors relatives, so sometimes I just call them out. You know, I pray to god first and then. Hey, by the way, if you guys want to help, right, right, yeah, no, I think there's a lot of.

Speaker 1 1:00:09

You know new age philosophy. You would say you have spirit guides and angels, and I don't get into all that terminology but I do. I like the idea because it's it is related to your book. You are keeping your grandmother alive, not just her stories and not just her legacy, but in a way, do you know, I mean her consciousness, her energy is persisting and you're an agent in that yeah, and my father is there too.

Speaker 2 1:00:33

And uh, one thing is my like lifetime regret, because chinese culture we're talking about, like our generation, we don't say I love you, like between family members, between people. We don't, we don't hug each other and uh I, after my father passed away, I realized I have never really said I love you. So I've been saying it so many times now, like when I talk to him. One time I, I think, uh, I went to a medium and uh, she told me she said, oh, your father, said she that she, he didn't say that either something you put in the book.

Speaker 1 1:01:11

Oh, I love you.

Speaker 2 1:01:12

Okay, got it yeah, I love you, yeah, but he, he's kind of say like don't, don't be too guilty about it, because I have never said that to you either, right?

Speaker 1 1:01:21

yeah, that's a shame, but it's never too late, right?

Intergenerational Trauma and Resilience

Speaker 2 1:01:23

you're doing it now, so yeah, and also um, what else, um, something I want to say uh, in one of my dreams sometimes you know those dreams, some sometimes you know it's not a dream, it's. It's not a dream, it's, you know you have a connection, you, with the other world and the inside dream I vividly remember my father said uh, me, because I have a sister too. Right, but I'm the most smart, hard-working, gifted, talented person. But then my father said how come she suffered so much? It's not fair.

Speaker 1 1:02:05

That's what he said wow, well, I I think I heard you say something in another interview. Oh no, this was a conversation at starbucks, never mind with two of my friends yesterday. You know we do, and virginia, you might relate to this because actually he was in a program to become certified as a family counselor uh, similar to your program, I think. But anyway, he said, you know we're we're really apt to blame ourselves, like in molestation cases. You know, it's pretty universal. The kid blames himself, or even divorces. If your parents divorce, the kid tends to blame themselves.

Speaker 1 1:02:40

He was juxtaposing that with this idea. We want to believe there's justice in the universe and I know that. I want to go to bed at night thinking you know, people are good and the world is benevolent, the universe is benevolent and there is justice. That person was kind and good and do you know what I mean? A good citizen, and they did all the right things. They didn't deserve that. That deck of hand, you know, that deck of cart, that what do you call it? Hand of cards, or that experience. They didn't deserve that. That doesn't sit well with our desire to rationalize the universe, if that makes sense. That's why children blame themselves. So does that any of that make sense, like I think we. Yeah, sometimes bad things do happen to good people and that's a hard thing for us to wrap their brain around yeah, buddhism, believe um that.

Speaker 1 1:03:38

If that happens, it's like your previous life, or your previous previous life, you did something wrong I found that's really hard to accept I think it's problematic in through a modern lens, you know, it's probably pretty problematic because it's the victim blaming we talk about on this show a lot, right, the red dress syndrome, the victim blaming, and I think it's a little outdated. No, just my opinion. I like like a lot of, of course, a lot of the Eastern philosophy behind Buddhism and, to a lesser degree, hinduism A slightly lesser degree, but I think there are problematic tropes there with regard to the hierarchy that is karma, you know.

Speaker 2 1:04:17

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:04:18

The class. It's almost like a caste system. Well, it is a caste system, but we might have evolved out of that Anyone.

Speaker 3 1:04:27

I was thinking well, technically we have that in the Christianity. Yeah, when you think about the father's sins being on the child, which is why we do baptisms.

Speaker 1 1:04:40

Yeah, we need to retire. You don't need an ambassador to redeem yourself. You don't need the golden ticket. We have the power within to redeem ourselves. Anyway.

Speaker 2 1:04:56

I think Christianity explains why bad things happen to good people. It's because of free will, right? That's how they explain it free will.

Speaker 3 1:05:06

But they do believe that when you're born, you're born insane because of the sin of the Father, which is, you know, like. In Catholicism they baptize infants. I know some other Christian faiths they do that, the LDS Church, which is primarily out here in Utah I mean they're everywhere, but Utah is known as their hub. It's eight years old, because now you know the difference between right and wrong. So you get baptized then, so you recognize what sin is.

Speaker 1 1:05:36

Well, I think sorry I'm jumping in just because I want to relate it to the podcast I think this is all good stuff. It's all storytelling. You know the stories we tell ourselves culturally and that includes religion, because God knows, it's taken over. Christianity. Just bam, really took off, didn't it, and took over much of the Western European Judeo-Christian world anyway.

Speaker 1 1:06:00

And I think the pendulum swings and it has to do with the power structures, because if you look at what you just described, we're all faulted. We're born with original sin. We have to be redeemed through Christ. That's kind of a horrible. It's a pretty self-loathing way to look at humanity. But man, they really cemented it during the dark ages. Then you had the Renaissance, where right Humanists like we're not faulted, we're glorious creatures with immense capacity and potential. And so whenever fascism takes over, suddenly we're faulted again. Like just look at, make America great again. Well, what if it was okay to begin with? You know, like we're not all. So it's the divide and conquer thing, and seeing us as faulted is not empowering period. So I'm just offering that. If you look at history, it's the divide and conquer thing and seeing us as faulted is not empowering period.

Speaker 3 1:06:46

So I'm just offering that if you look at history it's kind of a pendulum swing towards believing we have the goods within you know and believing you're sharing basically how you know through your grandmother's story, chinese culture, how it's gone through some very similar, you know storylines, and that which is really what brings it all back to, which is what our podcast is about, is that interconnectivity, how we're all humans first, everything else is after yeah, but it's also sorry.

Speaker 1 1:07:24

It's about empowerment too, because, despite all the forces that were out to squelch her humanity right and, uh, disempower her, she found the goods. Like we're saying that, the power within to do that. So he, I'm sorry. I'm gonna read the whole book and then I'll say more go ahead.

Speaker 2 1:07:44

And also human beings are the only species we have something called the conscience. Animals don't have that. That makes us special.

Speaker 1 1:07:54

I love it.

Speaker 3 1:07:55

I love that too.

Speaker 1 1:07:56

Well, we might steer toward a close soon, but I have one more question that I would love to run by you, and we kind of hinted at it earlier. Virginia and I are obviously fascinated with language. It's right there in the title of our podcast, and it's not just stories that transform, but it's come up quite a bit on this podcast. Language has the capacity to reveal profound truths in a way or I guess images can do it too, but in a way that bypasses cognition, and I think Anya Ochtenberg was the one that said it takes you into these dark corners or alleys. So simple word juxtaposition can suggest something conceptually that's nonlinear, if that makes sense. So I'm not reading the question at this point, but it was something to do with. You know. I already asked you if you feel your book lands different because it's culturally relative in one language versus another. Yeah, yeah, I wonder if there's more to say on that. You know, what about language itself? How did you use the tool of language itself to best tell your story?

Speaker 2 1:09:02

Put it this way I like Hemingway's style like simple, not overly complicated and overly flourish.

Speaker 1 1:09:10

I was going to say flowery yes, it was not flowery and I'm not capable of doing that anyway.

Speaker 2 1:09:17

But I know I can write way better in Chinese than in English because Chinese is my first language and because, as you said, the cultural relevance and I think to know another language, like for example for me to know Chinese, is a double-edged sword. It's both a blessing and a curse for me to write in English. So blessing is that I can use, you know, chinese expressions, chinese pre-words, chinese cliche even If I use a Chinese cliche, nobody knows it's a cliche, that sounds so wonderful. But Chinese grammar is like a language so much different from English and that's it's really hard for me to write correctly, consistently in English. So I need higher freelance editors constantly Before AI age, right, because my book was written before that and that makes it really hard.

Speaker 2 1:10:16

I don't know if you know that in Chinese language we only have one tense. We only have present tense, we don't have other tenses. We don't have plural, we only have present tense, we don't have other tenses. We don't have plurals, we only have singular. Our verb doesn't change with a subject. We say like I do, you do, he do. We don't say he does.

Speaker 1 1:10:34

Wow.

Speaker 2 1:10:35

Our preposition is so different in English so it's so much much harder for a first-generation immigrant to write in English, harder for a first generation immigrant to write in english. Recently, in the last few years, there's more um book written by second generation immigrants and I I say that because their language. They don't have the language challenge because they were either came to western world at a very young age, like as a child, or they was born and raised here. But when you like a Chinese language and you write a Chinese historical fiction, I just naturally they don't have as much information, right, because they can only access to those being translated into English, and that is very limited. In addition, if you don't know something there, you don't go seek for it. For example, if I don't know something there, you don't go seek for it, right? For example, if I don't know just Paris, I would never ask, hey, how do I get to Paris?

Speaker 2 1:11:29

So, then they start. There's a tendency that either their facts are wrong or the gaps they filled with their modern western how do I put it? Like uh presumptions there yeah, presumptions, that is not right. But you know, for first generation, we, I know chinese language, so my, my research, my information is just overwhelmingly rich, but my english is challenge so, yeah, you must feel a little limited, you.

Speaker 1 1:12:04

You found a, did you go through several rounds of edits? You said with this publisher for the House, filler.

Speaker 2 1:12:11

With the publisher once, but before that I have more than one round with freelance editors. So I hired two rounds of copy editors. I hired two rounds of structure editors. I hired two rounds of full structure editors. I hired two rounds of full manuscript evaluators. I went, you know, my critic group was there along the way and I had hired a beta reader that does so much work and so much investment into this book.

Speaker 1 1:12:39

Well, the reason I ask, though, is because, if you found one that you trust on this front the one we're talking about not to fill in the gaps with a Western sensibility or a Western worldview, to not fill in the gaps did you find somebody that you clicked with or that you trust?

Speaker 2 1:12:55

um meaning an editor well, they help me with, um, let's say, structure of the book, a pace and what to keep, what to what to take out. But, um, I have to be always on guard, especially now with ai, because I try use ai to help me with editing of my next book and I found If you're not careful, it's just to erase your voice.

Speaker 1 1:13:21

Absolutely of course.

Speaker 2 1:13:23

Relevance and cultural references, even though you gave the instruction To the AI repeatedly.

Speaker 1 1:13:29

Virginia, you're going to laugh. I'm like. You don't need to tell me Please don't get me started.

Speaker 3 1:13:36

Don't get me started. I totally relate to this.

Speaker 1 1:13:39

It's good as a tool, but the reason I asked if you found an editor that you worked well with or trusted is maybe with the second book you could request that editor.

Speaker 3 1:13:49

Has it landed?

Speaker 1 1:13:50

with the publisher. Are you still in the process of looking for a publisher?

Speaker 2 1:13:53

I'm still in the process. I have already done that hired editors for my second book. It's all done like uh, there's one editor, a freelance editor I I really like, but I found everyone is have its own limitations, so I need to use different resource and consolidate them. And then, um, follow my, my heart and my intuition, because I found that's the bottom line.

Speaker 1 1:14:21

Truly, I like getting multiple editors. I usually have two passes with different editors and then you know when you want to dig in your heels and say, nope, that's my voice, that was a choice. You know what I mean and you, you get more convicting about your choices when you have thrown it, you know, thrown it out there for multiple eyes to feed back on. Yeah, but when you have thrown it, you know, thrown it out there for multiple eyes to feed back on yeah, but when?

Speaker 2 1:14:41

you sorry, when you first started. Um, I think it was really hard for me. When two editors give you conflicting advice, which one do you follow? If you're not sure you don't know, right? Yeah, that's really hard, so I have to wait, put the manuscript aside and wait for some time on that.

Speaker 1 1:15:04

On that front, yeah, you said it was a gift that you had such a long delay because you were actually able to go and do more research right and create more I don't want to put words in your mouth, but more, um, maybe texture and ambience and, uh, authenticity. You said something about it being a blessing, in disguise, that you had such a long delay not only that, that happened to my first book.

Speaker 2 1:15:26

Now it's happening to my second book. I'm glad um, it was not published like last year, because this version is so much better no, I used hate.

Speaker 1 1:15:37

I used to hate being edited. I know I'm sorry. I used to hate rewrites. I had this fantasy that, okay, I've got a mature writing voice and I've arrived, and it should come right off the pen from God through me, off the pen. And why would you mess with it If you were really warmed up and your intuition was firing on all cylinders? That's a fantasy. It can happen for a little moment here and a little moment there, but I've grown to the point where I love rewrites. For that reason, it just gets better and better.

Writing in a Second Language

Speaker 2 1:16:08

Yeah, exactly, and especially I found that if you just rely on writing advices and the courses and books on writing, it's not enough, and the courses and books I'm writing it's not enough. Like my newest revision of my second book came from another book I read. It's all of a sudden like the sky opened, there's a light shining down.

Speaker 1 1:16:32

And we always have to grow and evolve too. So as long as we're exposing ourselves to new writers and new approaches, we're supposed to evolve. I did have the thought the other day. Though I'm not an avid reader, I don't have my finger on the pulse of the different trends from the different imprints at the moment, but I think I know good literature and it could be partially due to AI. But I think voice is a thing of the past. I deal with young editors who want to squelch my voice at every turn. I guess it's style. I mean, it's not the narrative voice but the style. So everything's generic and homogenous and cookie cutter in my opinion. You go back and read.

Speaker 1 1:17:15

Well, it is, and I blame it, nobody reads anymore. But I'm just. You know, I'm thinking back to some of the classics I mentioned earlier and I'm sorry. It's not style over substance, right? A lot of our oh, the writing is great, the story sucked, or the story was great, the writing sucked, isn't it one animal? They should go hand in hand. And I don't know. I just think everything is generic and all the advice you get from editors nowadays are to, I don't know, accommodate to some kind of style guide, but they have no clue about voice. And I'm talking about the young ones, sorry.

Speaker 2 1:18:01

That. But they have no clue about voice, and I'm talking about the young ones, sorry, that's really sad. So in another you know, we know that in this publishing houses their interns look after those slash pals. That's always a concern for me, oh no.

Speaker 1 1:18:11

Well, it's kind of like with screenwriting you have to get past the reader to get the attention of a studio and, yeah, the reader is usually a college intern yeah so, but I almost kind of welcome ai in a way.

Speaker 2 1:18:25

If they hire ai to read your entire manuscript rather than an intern, read the first few pages.

Speaker 1 1:18:31

Maybe ai is a better choice because ai has read a book or two maybe.

Speaker 2 1:18:37

Exactly, and AI has patience, right, ai won't run out of patience. Ai could read the entire book in a really short time.

Speaker 3 1:18:45

Right, right, a minute maybe, but I'll tell you about AI too, but when you made that comment especially when you're talking about interns and the readers it's an intern doing it. So when I first got into writing oh my gosh, it was 20 years ago I I used to do a lot of um, the slash pile reads when I was getting my edit. My editor um hat you know training and um I noticed when I would read something a few things it depended on the time of day I was reading somebody's manuscript if I was more judgy or not if I had more responsibilities because I was a young mom at the time.

Speaker 3 1:19:26

If I had my littles with me and it was like one of those crazy days where they're like only half day in preschool or kindergarten or something that also affected my attitude toward what I was reading. So I read a lot of like. The existential like of my world would impact when I'd sit down and read somebody's, of course. And that's horrible, because there could be something really good but you get like you get two paragraphs in, you're like, yeah, this is just crap, and you just throw it because you're just not in the mood.

Speaker 1 1:19:50

All right, I often read something that somebody you know, people send me things and either it grabs you or it doesn't. But sometimes I think it's bad because if I have to read a paragraph five times to literally follow the train of thought, that's a problem. Yeah, but then sometimes I go on a different day with more coffee. Maybe I would have followed it. Yeah, there's all so many variables, Sorry, go ahead, Tong.

Speaker 2 1:20:16

Yeah, I'm an avid reader reader, but I'm not very patient, so usually I read a book or listen to a book for the opening chapters. If I don't like it, I just gave the give up life's too short. Yeah, we can't be reading crap, sorry, having said that, I learned my lessons with two books. One is the Lord of Flies. And another one is Of Moth and man.

Speaker 1 1:20:43

Of course. So you didn't take to them initially.

Speaker 2 1:20:46

That's right.

Speaker 1 1:20:47

But then you, yeah, tell me more.

Speaker 3 1:20:52

I love those two books so much.

Speaker 1 1:20:53

Oh, they're awesome.

Speaker 2 1:20:54

Yeah, it's just beginning to me was too slow with this. I didn't know where it goes, so I gave up, and then later I learned, like how important like basically those books were are. So I, I, especially. I want to play of, of mouse and the man, I said gee, I need to reread that book. And the second time I read those two books I I absolutely.

Speaker 1 1:21:20

I fell in love with them. Isn't that amazing? I use a film example, virginia. Sorry I've probably said it on this podcast, but I had that experience with the film. I resisted it. I was ready to walk out and I don't generally walk out of films, I get my money's worth but I was ready to walk out and it was mainly I had a kind of negative reaction to.

Speaker 1 1:21:35

It just seemed again very style, conscious, style over substance. And uh that you know I need something to engage me, I need the character arc to invest in something developing under the surface. And it was so seemingly superficial and stylistic I thought, no, I need more. I'm almost out of here, but I hung in there, like you think, I hung in there and it became probably one of my favorite films of all time. But I realized that the director knew exactly what he was doing because the characters were superficial and image conscious, so the style reflected that. And then slowly, despite yourself, you realize, wow, I really am developing affinity for them, despite them being seemingly unredeemable or whatever the things you invest in just through your humanity yeah you don't know why you're inventing.

Speaker 1 1:22:25

You know you caring about these characters because they seem unredeemable or despicable. Yeah, those are the films I love. Now that your humanity alone is what makes you invest in these characters, okay, so I want to share a story now that you just shared that, dominic.

Speaker 3 1:22:39

This is with music. I will not say who the artist is, though, because I'm going to save myself from that humiliation. However, I am not a I am not a fan of this artist, but, um, I have a professor who is doing empathy through this specific artist, um, music and so I was like you know what.

Speaker 3 1:22:59

Okay, I know she's only focusing on this one artist and empathy through their music, but I want to just kind of see because I mean, I do believe in music therapy and and that music can move you. So I'm like I don't really like this artist, so I want to see how this applies you really shouldn't talk about taylor swift this way virginia. That is actually who this is.

Speaker 1 1:23:19

I am. Oh my God, See how intuitive I am.

Speaker 3 1:23:21

I know you are All right. So I have a professor who's a tall Swifty, so, anyway. So I spent 48 hours listening to all of Taylor Swift's top songs, and I mean not that I hate all of them, I mean there's some that I can stomach and you know, like Shake it Off, for example. I think of my little girls dancing around to that song when it came out. So I mean I do have some fond memories with some songs and so, and you know, you do tie emotional attachment to songs. I kid you guys not.

Speaker 3 1:23:48

And this was last week, by the way, that this I went to this and there's a few more after this, after this week, that I just went to. But anyways, it was my first week going. We had to pick a song and it had to be one. They give us big fills and I found a song that gave me big fills and shared it. But after listening to everybody else and why they picked the song they did, I was a crying mess by the end of the fricking seminar and I'm not like, yeah, I'm not a Swifty.

Speaker 1 1:24:20

I'm not going to like go listen to um, but when I, when I was at art center and this was way back actually, we went to school at the same time, tong you were in the master's program, but you know, from 89 to 91, art center, one of the top design schools in the world, by the way, it is oh art center college of design.

Speaker 1 1:24:31

It's very well respected and where oh, it's in pasadena, california, but it's, yeah, it's one of the most expensive private schools in this country, but it's, you know, it's got like Ford Motor Company endowments and it's just traditionally one of the top design schools. But anyway, even there, that real elitist academic climate. You had a class called the Films of Keanu Reeves, Not kidding. And then there was one called Eye on Manhattan and it was filmed, set in Manhattan, but it included Desperately Seeking Susan with Madonna, if that makes sense. But I do think you know Madonna is a phenomenon. There are many classes about the cultural icon that is Madonna. That warrants, so I kind of get it. Taylor Swift you got to examine why she's having such an impact, even if you don't respect it.

Speaker 3 1:25:21

Well, and that was the thing, like I walked away from that and actually having more appreciation for her and understanding, like knowing how old she was when she wrote certain songs and looking at it more through a therapeutic lens, because obviously that's what the class was, because you know we're talking about.

Speaker 3 1:25:38

You know advanced empathy with the professor who was, you know, teaching, counseling, but you know it's like all what we talked about, like I walked away.

Finding Your Voice in Editing

Speaker 3 1:25:47

If I hadn't have taken, if I had to sign up for this class willingly, I wouldn't have had the appreciation to go like, oh my gosh, she was only like 19 years old, she was only 22 years old. I mean, she's talking about things that my at my age, going on 50, that I, when I think back to myself, at that age I probably wouldn't have even been on my radar, and so when you see it, so so that's what's so amazing when we take the time, which is what I love about you know what you know, tanga, what you've said is you know when we take the time to you know, tonga, what you've said is you know when we take the time to just maybe look at through a different lens and not, you know, let the fact that you know, like we said, you know I didn't have my morning cup of coffee and here I am reading this and I'm going. Whatever you know, we miss them.

Speaker 1 1:26:30

You got to give it your full attention. I've had people tell me they speed up this podcast. Oh, do you know what I mean? Like, and you can in in all these apps, you can speed them up to two and I'm like number one. I don't want to sound like mickey mouse, um, but I hate when people say I they speed read. No, no, no, don't speed. Don't read my novel at all. If you're going to speed read it, am I wrong?

Speaker 2 1:26:54

I never liked the bridget.

Speaker 1 1:26:56

It's called the bridget novel, right yes, the abridged version, the version I never liked that.

Speaker 2 1:27:00

It's like it's called the Bridget novel, right? Yes, the abridged version. The abridged version. I never liked that. It's like I feel they took out all the flash and then now you have a skeleton left.

Speaker 1 1:27:05

Yes, well, I also don't agree with the academic take on most literature I'm not talking about. I mean, they just don't get into the thematic content. They talk about the form and then in a very superficial way, they water down what's actually being said, the thematic content. My take is always way more nuanced and I'm not inside the head of the author. I I'm only speculating what their intention was, but I do. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 1:27:33

they always miss the mark yeah literary critics always miss the mark and just play it safe hey, I heard there's a line I really liked from like.

Speaker 2 1:27:43

I read it many years ago. They said literary critics are those who uh, goes to the battlefield at the finish.

Speaker 1 1:27:51

All those injured soldiers it's true, and literary criticism evolved out of liturgy. By the way, right, nobody was analyzing literature before the church came along. So anyway, it's problematic. The beauty is we can all have our own opinions. I mean, this morning my niece and I were texting back and forth about the uh, the biopic about dylan. I guess it's A Complete Unknown. Have you guys seen that? No, it's the Bob Dylan biopic. I haven't. I just watched it last night on Hulu, bob Dylan Anyway, and she was saying like I don't want to know too much, I don't like to go into movies with preconceived notions, and I actually said I'm exactly the same way. But the beauty is nobody else's opinion really has much sway on me. So thank god for that, including the critics. I can still go in. Hopefully they haven't issued any spoilers, but I can still go in and I'm gonna have my own experience, no matter what. There are certain actors that just the fact that they've chosen to do a certain project, that's enough for me. I'd watch them. Make out a shopping list, you know.

Speaker 3 1:29:03

I'll just say when a critic actually makes a comment, it inspires me more to actually go watch or read something, because I'm like, okay, that was your lens at whatever moment in time. And so now it's like so how well does that add up to my lens? Or which is me telling my existentialism here, but on a grander existential viewpoint, how does it add up? So it actually makes me a little bit more like I want to prove you wrong.

Speaker 1 1:29:36

And sometimes I walk in going yeah, they were correct.

Speaker 3 1:29:38

And then sometimes I walk in going well, there's about five other ways I can see that.

Speaker 1 1:29:41

Yep, well, actually to tie it back to something you said a moment ago Tongue, I think that you mentioned you had one editor say ooh, you're going to piss a lot of people off with this, right, or that's?

Speaker 2 1:29:56

dangerous territory. She was a manuscript evaluate.

Speaker 1 1:30:00

Oh, okay, yeah well, that just reminds me a little bit of the pleasure principle. A lot of people not critics, not necessarily people educated in this field, but a lot of people will dislike a movie because it made them uncomfortable. We've talked about that. It's bad because I felt a, b, c and d and it's like actually if they provoked you or intrigued you and that movie haunted you, they did their job yeah, that's right anyway, all right, well, we should probably bring it to a close.

Speaker 1 1:30:31

I hope you didn't mind the chit chat. We tend to do that on this podcast, sorry not at all, it's lovely well, maybe we'll have you back on for book two. Do you have any kind of release date in mind?

Speaker 2 1:30:43

no, I don't. I'm still, uh, in a final stage of editing.

Speaker 1 1:30:49

Yeah, we'll enjoy and, um yeah, we'll have you back on whether you have something to promote or not. This was a pleasure. Is there anything you'd like to share with the listeners that you know that you're really inspired to impart?

Speaker 2 1:31:02

I just like to, uh well, have a small request. Listeners, if you like my book, really appreciate writing a review on Amazon, because that's so important to the authors. And, uh, that keeps, keeps us going.

Speaker 1 1:31:17

Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 2 1:31:18

Yeah. Okay, that keeps, keeps us going absolutely, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, your links will be in the episode description.

Speaker 1 1:31:24

Yeah, yeah, please leave reviews. That is everything, isn't it?

Speaker 3 1:31:27

it is yes, thank you. Thank you both really welcome. It was great having you on yeah, thank you so much.

Speaker 1 1:31:34

This was awesome and we'll reach out for part two if you're ever interested.

Speaker 2 1:31:39

For sure, okay yeah.

Speaker 1 1:31:41

All right To our listeners. Remember, life is story and we can get our hands in the clay, individually and collectively. We can write a new story. See you next time.