Grief: The Silent Pandemic with Grief Mentor Doug Lawrence

Grief Mentor Doug Lawrence takes us on a profound exploration of grief as a universal human experience that's often misunderstood and stigmatized in our society. Drawing from his personal journey following the loss of his wife Deborah to cancer in 2021 and his 25 years in law enforcement dealing with trauma, Doug reveals how these experiences shaped his approach to mentoring those struggling with grief and mental health challenges. 

Doug began his Mentoring Practice in 2009. He is an international speaker, mentor and international best-selling author. His books include: “The Gift of Mentoring,” “You Are Not Alone,” and his current release, “Grief –The Silent Pandemic.’”

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Transcript

The Silent Pandemic of Grief

Speaker 1 0:45

Doug Lawrence is the founder of Talent C and co-founder of the International Mentoring Community. Doug has achieved the highest level of mentoring certification, the Certificate of Practice Jury Mentor. Currently, he alone holds this certification, serving as a Staff Sergeant in the Royal Canadian Mounted Police for 25 years, doug retired in 1999. He is a volunteer mentor with the Sir Richard Branson Entrepreneur Program in the Caribbean and with the American Corporate Partners in the United States, working with military personnel in their transition from military life to civilian life. Through research, doug has determined there is a role for mentoring as a support for those struggling with PTSD and grief. His experience in law enforcement, coupled with working with people suffering from PTSD, has afforded him a unique view of mentoring mental health and grief. In addition, doug's mentoring practice utilizes effective mentoring processes his system to help people on their mental health healing journey. Doug works with people who are struggling with their healing journey. Doug lost his wife, deborah, to cancer in 2021 and has since devoted his life to helping others with their healing journey. Doug began his mentoring practice in 2009. He is an international speaker, mentor and international best-selling author. His books include the Gift of Mentoring you Are Not Alone and his current release, which he's here to talk about Grief, the Silent Pandemic.

Speaker 1 2:16

Okay, and as I said in the green room, I'm going to go on a little bit longer than I normally would and read the coverage, the online coverage, for Grief, the Silent Pandemic, just to inform our later conversation. Pandemic, just to inform our later conversation. Okay, grief is a profound and universal experience, a natural response to the loss of someone or something deeply cherished. Yet for many, the journey through grief is made even more difficult by lack of personal understanding and a society rife with misconceptions about what it means to grieve. This widespread misunderstanding has contributed to a mental health pandemic, leaving countless individuals feeling isolated, overwhelmed and without the tools to heal. Okay, I'm going to leave it there for a moment and maybe in our conversation we can get a little bit into what motivated you to write the book and what you hope to impart. All right, welcome, doug Lawrence.

Speaker 2 3:12

Well, thank you so much for the opportunity to have a conversation around storytelling, but also, more importantly, around grief and the book that actually is coming very close to being released here in the latter part of April.

Speaker 1 3:33

Oh great, yeah, for some reason I thought it was already out. Yeah, we're glad to be a part of that and we would love to shine any light we can on the topic of grief. I don't know how you feel, virginia, but I feel like it's something that's been swept under the carpet for a long time and I like the trend of you know. Anderson Cooper has an amazing podcast called All there Is, and Stephen Colbert has been talking very openly about grief, and I think it's time that we have this cultural dialogue. So we're glad to have you on and excited to learn from you. Before we dive into what motivated you to write the book and maybe get into the meat of the book a little bit, we have a rote question. We've been asking all of our uh guests in the new season and it is a little bit on brand for us and we hope it plays a part in your practice and in your writing what do you feel is the cultural role of storytelling and has it evolved over time?

Speaker 2 4:28

The role of storytelling is one where it gives you the opportunity and I know I go through this quite often with my mentoring practice, but it's more so about your lived experience and being able to spin that and being able to spin that and those words don't always sound well but to be able to spin that in the fashion of it being a story, because people respond to stories better than they do.

Speaker 2 5:06

If you were to say you should do this or you should do that, if I can frame it in the context of a story, it's going to be better received, and if I can frame it in a relevant storytelling or story, that's even better. And so for me, the role um, it's at the right, at the very, very front end of anything that we do today, especially for those of us that are involved in mentoring, those that are involved in coaching and a number of other, obviously, ways lived experience and being able to do so with something that is relevant to the situation that you're talking about or dealing with at that particular time point yeah, I relate to all that and, um, it's definitely on brand for us.

Storytelling as a Healing Tool

Speaker 1 6:02

We talk about a lot, you know, life is story, as we say every week. So, uh, we do learn more in the narrative realm than the didactic. So I related to that, the fact that when you preach right or give an instructional didactic mandate, it just doesn't land, whereas story has the power to engage the emotions. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but, yeah, totally different outcome. So thank you for that. That was a really nice way of putting it. I do want to ask you if we could back up a little bit and maybe dovetail off the bio what motivated you to write this particular book and maybe, if there was a precise moment that inspired you to do so, we'd love to hear about it. I do know you reference the PTSD that you developed in the military and the loss of your wife. Do both of those play into your motivation to have this conversation about grief?

Speaker 2 6:58

Yes, and I guess it's mostly yes. So both of my books, the Gift of Mentoring and you Are Not Alone, were actually fostered because of input from other individuals. Who said with the Gift of Mentoring, a guy that I went through Royal Canadian Mounted Police training with we were troop mates he had written a bunch of motivational speeches not speeches but comments or articles that he sent to his children every morning excuse me, every morning so that they could start their day on a positive note. And they had, they were able to kind of come up with a goal that they were going to work on for that particular day and stuff. And so he had all these motivational messages and it was suggested to him that he take and accumulate all these motivational messages and turn them into a book.

Speaker 2 8:11

And so, long story short, he and I had a conversation and he said you've written all these blog articles on mentoring, you need to write a book. And I went me write a book. What are you kidding? That's more than I had ever dreamed of. And he said no, I'm serious, you need to write a book. And what ends up happening is I do write the book and get it out there, and then along comes my second book, which came from other people saying much the same thing.

Speaker 2 8:49

You know you're mentoring techniques, your skills, you're very good at what you do you you need to get that out there and and and help individuals with their healing journey and stuff like that. And so that was kind of just me kind of cutting the the tip of the iceberg off and starting to explore a little bit further. And as a result of that that was you Are Not Alone was born and we ended up getting that out there and the feedback I've had with that is that that helped a lot of people being able to move forward. And now with the grief, the silent pandemic, that's just adding more tools to the toolkit.

Speaker 1 9:35

I like that. Yeah, to be clear, so you are not alone was largely about the healing journey in general and I'm guessing from PTSD, but it didn't incorporate grief quite yet. Is that true?

Speaker 2 9:48

For the most part part.

Speaker 1 9:49

Yes, there was elements of grief that was in there, but not not a lot um well, in other words, did you lose your wife after the writing of you are not alone, or, uh, not?

Speaker 2 10:04

I, I lost. Uh, let me think here for a second now. She passed in 2021, so she would have passed just after the book was released.

Speaker 1 10:16

Yeah, I'm asking because I in my parlance you know they're all interrelated, right? Is there grieving that comes with PTSD? Do you see a connection there? Or is grief its own animal? Do you know what I mean? Is that a completely separate category?

Speaker 2 10:32

Well, it is definitely its own animal. But the other part too was, you know, getting PTSD and at that particular time there was no support structure in place for mental health health and so, being a police officer in an isolated community where I was dealing with trauma all pretty much all the time, my only support structure was was my family my wife and two kids, and I was not the nicest person to have around when I was trying to deal with post-traumatic stress and I was turning to all the wrong things to try and combat or use or combat or for coping skills. So it was my family that ended up paying the price for my bad behavior. So there was some grief there, but it was. You know, when you go through and you read the grief, the silent pandemic we go through, or I go through and explain in a little more detail the differences and as a result of that, you can find bits and pieces of grief in a lot of things you normally may not think right.

Speaker 1 11:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's kind of what I sorry, virginia, that's what I was hinting at is. I do think there's all kinds of grieving, right, and we mourn the loss of many, many. In life there are rites of passage and so I was hinting at, you know, just mourning life as you knew it, or mourning innocence, mourning loss of innocence, disillusionment, futility, all these things. You know we, we encounter grief throughout life. But I just made a little connection that maybe PTSD has something to do with mourning a feeling of security. If you've got chronic anxiety, do you know what I mean? That's not a very secure world to live in. So I just thought maybe there was a connection there.

Speaker 2 12:37

You know, mourning life as you knew it, or mourning some kind of innocence, maybe well, even even the the idea of mourning relationships or the loss of relationships, because I know I share in the book and I think it was in the first book, I can't remember now, but I I share a real life story that takes place where a young lad ends up, uh, death by suicide and we go through all the different steps that we had to go through to end up getting closure on that particular situation. Now, closure on the situation doesn't necessarily mean closure on the actual grief part of the situation, but it tied together a whole bunch of variables, including, you know, the aspect that my wife Debra had to be involved in helping me because nobody else was there, you know, was able to to provide help. Either they were not comfortable or they just choose, chose to. But in any event, you know, it was a matter of there being elements of grief, that's there. But there was also mental health challenges that came as a result of that whole experience.

Speaker 1 14:07

Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah, Virginia, did you have a question? I feel like I cut you off there.

Speaker 3 14:12

Oh well, I was. You guys pretty much covered it. I was just going to say that and I know I've shared this with Dominic before. I have a professor and this quote has always stuck with me from taking my course with him, but he always would tell us that one loss equals all loss and that, you know, you can look at everything through kind of a grief lens because basically what you know Dominic went into, um, how just the transitions that we go through in different situations and through life, that it can just kind of become a companion when we least expect it. It seems like and I don't know if that's been kind of your experience, doug, as you've been, you know, writing these books and you mentioned that you were kind of doing blog posts and talking about some of this before you wrote your book.

Speaker 2 15:01

Yeah, the blog posts were actually more targeted towards mentoring and sort of better understanding what the benefits of that were, and and weaving into that whole mess of a story was the aspect that you know mentoring is is more than just a career development process that you can go through to help someone get a job and stuff that. There were other elements. There was a lot of personal growth issues. There was a lot of, you know, at the very onset or at the very beginning, there was, you know, things related to, to grief that I hadn't really understood fully until I was diving into the book and the part for me was making sure that there's lots of stuff out there from an academic perspective. I wanted to make sure that I was taking, coming back to storytelling, that I was going to make those stories that were very personal exactly that were personal and be able to equate them to something that somebody else can say. I see myself in that story, absolutely, you know, or?

Speaker 1 16:19

It's so funny it's come up three times already this morning. The anecdotal actually is more persuasive than the data, no matter what the topic is anecdotal even in healthcare. Uh, anecdotal is is where it's at, in my opinion. I'm really glad you landed back on mentoring though, because I'm a big fan of kind of laying the groundwork for more nuanced conversations. But you know, for the listeners I always feel like I want to define some terms or lay some groundwork. But I do, virgin. I want to come back to something you just said a little bit later about how we should. Amy Sedaris said something on a really on Anderson Cooper's podcast actually that we should just assume everybody's grieving all the time and that's called walking around with compassion. So but let's come back to that. I you brought up mentoring again, so I want to be clear. I'm not quite sure I know what the vernacular meaning is, but how does mentoring differ from life coaching or therapy? What is the definition of mentoring in this context?

Speaker 2 17:19

You know that's the $64,000 question.

Speaker 1 17:24

I tend to ask those yeah.

Myths and Misconceptions About Grief

Speaker 2 17:26

Because I hear I get asked that a lot and for for me I I relate to it from from from personal experience, so I see mentoring as something that is long term and if you talk to.

Speaker 2 17:42

If you talk to a coach, they'll say well, time out, just a minute. My coaching is long term as well. I haven't experienced that what? What I have experienced is that I've seen where they have been using coaching services to deal with a situation and it wasn't going well and they brought me in as their mentor and within, I think, five one-hourhour sessions we've done a complete behavioral change. So I I that's just sort of giving an example of of the difference between the two, but I think you know for the most part it definitely comes back to longevity of the of the relationship.

Speaker 1 18:28

So I've got about specialization. Is mentorship generally more specialized than life coaching or no, it can be?

Speaker 2 18:37

yes, it can be. Um, one of the things that I always, you know, tell people is that, uh, having uh industry specific experiences is nice to have. It's not a need to have, because if I have my head wrapped around proper mentoring process and concepts, that will take me a lot further than what the coaching will.

Speaker 1 19:05

Got it. So one of the questions I've written down, actually, since we're really starting at the beginning here. I like what you said about generally what motivated you to write your books, and it sounds like you didn't really consider yourself an author until somebody nudged you to do it. What about the grief book in particular? Was it the loss of your wife that motivated you to want to give other people the tools to move through grief, or what specifically inspired this latest book?

Speaker 2 19:32

it definitely. If I looked at all three books side by side by side. Grief, the silent pandemic was definitely, unequivocally, without a doubt, written with the idea in mind of honoring Deborah and all that she, she and all that she accomplished in her life and it. Life was just not fair.

Speaker 2 19:59

She was taken far too early and that's what the story behind this particular book is is all is all about, and it's with the idea in mind of taking the mentoring concept and kind of weaving it into you know the the aspect of okay, so what do I? What now? What you know, kind of like what do where do I go? What do I do from this point? Because you know my biggest cheerleader is no longer around and you know the person that I could turn to and say you know, gee, I was just on this podcast and we talked about this and this and know that she's going to steer me or correct my course of action to be able to say you may want to rethink that approach. She was always great at doing that sort of stuff. So for me, I think what really drove home the fact that you it wasn't so much that I had a choice I had to write this book Greece in the time of pandemic and, like I said, you know, part of that was, you know, to honor or to dedicate the book to Deborah. That was all of that was important to me and, as I've said when I've talked to other people, that it's all part of the story.

Speaker 1 21:41

Well, is it too simplistic or too reductive to say you found purpose in it and you're giving back? In other words, a lot of our guests will say suffering or tragedy or life challenges have obviously forged a lot of wisdom and now you're just simply sharing that wisdom. Is that too simplistic to say that you're finding the productivity in this particular life challenge? You're giving back as a response to the life challenge.

Speaker 2 22:11

I agree with what you're saying and I want to add to that that there are far too many people out there today that won't step out of the closet and say I need help. They'll stay in that closet and they'll continue to, you know, struggle with their healing journey and they will have, you know, their mental health will continue to degrade simply because they aren't. I had a conversation with somebody here the last couple of days and they were saying that they were having a real difficult time and all of that, and I asked a couple simple questions. The first was have you shared any of this? Have you shared your story with anyone else?

Speaker 2 23:01

The answer to that was no, and I said you know, what you need to do is keeping it bottled up inside is not doing any good for anyone, and you need to be able to open that door, step outside and say hello, and if you do that, if you take those steps, it's going to help you on your healing journey. Is it going to make things completely better? No, but it's going to start you on that path to recovery and that's the important thing that we need to uh think of. And on top of it all, I keep coming back. I don't mean to sound like a broken record, but I'm a huge, huge, huge fan of telling stories, as most people who have interacted with me will tell you. He won't stop telling us.

Speaker 2 23:52

But the idea, you know the whole thing is that it's through those stories that we learn how to heal and how we can approach or deal with things differently.

Speaker 1 24:03

Yep, you're speaking our language. I mean this is why we have a podcast. I love it and thank you for expressing it that way. I mean this is why we have a podcast. I love it and thank you for expressing it that way. I mean I do think, aside from just making lemonade of lemons or finding purpose in the tragedy, I do think you're providing tools for people, and I think it's when I mentioned sweeping certain social issues under the rug. For example, you name it.

Speaker 1 24:33

You know, in the 80s and 90s you had talk shows finally putting things into the light and literally putting them under the cultural microscope, and everything from alcoholism to family dysfunction, to incest, you know, to even terms like just this morning again, we were talking about ADD, adult ADD. Well, there was no term for that, we just called it hyperactive, right. And then you didn't have Alzheimer's or any specific diagnoses. You just said, oh, they're senile. So, like, the more pop culture is aware of the latest science, the more tools we have to cope.

Speaker 1 25:00

So I love that you're providing tools for people that might not otherwise have had them. So, in the interest of you kind of mentoring people and working through the journey I love that you call grief a journey, because I'm guessing you never quite arrive. I'd love to hear from you and your experience. What is the biggest myth around grief? I have more questions, but if we could just start with that, there is a lot of misapprehensions, I think, and fallacies about what grief looks like or what it should be or could be. We'll get into the right and wrong way and that's in quotes, by the way, to grieve, but first of all?

Speaker 2 25:43

did you discover in your research for the book or in your own anecdotal experience that there are, what is the?

Speaker 2 25:48

And I think I kind of to some extent experienced that but most people think there's a start and an end date to grief, and there isn't. You know, as sad as it is, there is no. Yes, there's a start date, but there is no end date. So, you know, I'm going on four years now and weekends are my worst time, because that's when we used to do so much together as a couple and now I don't have that I'm, you know I'm. I'm scrambling to number one find relationships or to create relationships where I can say, okay, I, I need to talk to somebody and I need to step outside that closet and go for a cup of coffee, or you know something like that, excuse me, so that I'm able to fill that void that I'm experiencing right now, because, like I said, weekends are the worst and I still haven't figured the pathway to how to solve that and make it all better and go away, because the other side of me says well, doug, you should know better, because it's not going to go away.

Speaker 1 27:21

Well, I guess that leads to the next question. I have many questions, but to dovetail off that, then the logical question would be is there a presumption that grief equals suffering? So, assuming it's never going to go away, I frankly wouldn't want to stop thinking about my mom every day. I wouldn't want to stop having wonderful dreams in which it feels like she's visited me. So it's been said, you know, you can't talk about grief without talking about love. So at what point is it suffering? When is grief more complicated?

Speaker 1 27:56

I have my own hunches. I'm not going to say theories, but I have my own hunches, just in researching for today. When is grief more complicated Assuming it's never going to go away and it's going to look different on different people, when does it qualify as suffering and is it possible to grieve without it taxing you for the rest of your life or putting you in an early grave or you name it? I mean, I think we would all agree depression is counterproductive and could end in suicide. So when do we want to clean it up and when is it just part of life?

Speaker 2 28:26

well, a little self self-centered on my part, but I think the more opportunities that we can get to take a book like grief, the silent pandemic, and take the tools that are in that particular toolbox and kind of open the box up and sort of say, okay, which ones of these can I use to help myself get along.

Speaker 1 28:55

And function right. I mean functioning is good, I guess I'm getting at I mean there's a lot in there, but I'm getting at sorrow. I did Google, by the way, many definitions of grief and many definitions of mourning just to see what the vernacular has to say, and it tends most of the definitions center on deep sorrow and I had to really think about what does that mean? And you know, sorrow is a form of suffering. But these are all very Western value judgments of good, bad, right, wrong that we place on things that may just be neutral, they may just be part of life.

Speaker 1 29:31

So I'm just playing the devil's advocate a little bit that melancholy and sorrow were very quick to dismiss as having no value. I get it on a clinical level. If you have trauma as a result of loss or grief, a lot of clinical diagnoses center on when is it interrupting your daily functioning or when is it interrupting your goals for yourself in terms of satisfaction, inner peace, well-being, that sort of thing. When is it very clear you're doing grieving wrong, when is it actually taxing you and when is it creating unnecessary suffering?

Speaker 2 30:14

It's when.

Speaker 1 30:15

I let it go beyond the point of can manage that or I can let it manage me.

Speaker 2 30:16

it's when I struggle with that intersection in the highway, when I start to struggle, that's when my mental health, my mental well-being, is going to start to take the kicking and I'm going to have to reach out.

Supporting Others Through Grief

Speaker 2 30:32

Maybe I'm not the right person to be dealing with this, maybe I need to get professional help and part of that there's some concerns, because I'm also hearing at the same time that I don't want to be having to deal with a clinical approach versus one where I'm sitting down and having a conversation with somebody who has walked in my shoes before and has said you know, this is what, what I did, but that's just for me and me alone. And and because I, everybody grieves differently and everybody needs to be able to have the toolkit with the coping tools, the coping mechanisms in there to be able to strengthen how you approach things, but always remembering that you know I'm, I have to be able to, to learn or or to be able to be in a place where I'm able to deal with that myself and not let it deal with me or me.

Speaker 1 31:45

Yep. Yeah, that sounds a little bit like you know when I said you're not able to achieve inner peace or satisfaction or well-being. Yeah, it's running the show, so I love that. It also seems maybe it was implied in your bio or elsewhere. But it also seems like you're providing tools for people to support others in grief, not just navigating their own grief journey. But how do we culturally learn more about grief so we can better support others?

Speaker 1 32:14

So I've heard a lot of again. I've been listening to Anderson Cooper's podcast quite a bit and you often hear well you know these hallmark platitudes like oh, she's in a better place or he's in a better place really viscerally make people angry. So it almost seems like there's no right thing to say in some cases. How do we best support our loved ones through grief? I do think sometimes the fact that you can't say the right thing is why we offer very general sentiments like please accept my condolences. That's become the norm, for very good reason. What is the best thing you can do? Maybe, like in life, just listen, I know, like sitting Shiva, there's a reason. You're supposed to show up and pay your respects because you are supporting them through their grief. What is the best thing we can do for our loved ones who are on that grief journey that you described.

Speaker 2 33:08

So went through this on that grief journey that you described, so went through this. Um, my wife Debra didn't want any any fanfare with her passing and stuff and so, being the good husband that I am, I completely disregarded everything she had said.

Speaker 1 33:25

Okay.

Speaker 2 33:26

And we we held a celebration of life, and what's interesting was that, at the celebration of life, some friends that I hadn't seen for a long time came, which I was totally appreciative of. Same thing for Deborah she had lots of her work, colleagues and people that she got to meet through her work and stuff like that. They came to that, and people that she got to meet through her work and stuff like that that, you know, they came to that.

Speaker 2 33:54

The one that always sticks in my mind, though, is one of my colleagues that I was involved with in from, uh, in the sporting world came up to me and said you know that, geez, we haven't seen each other in a long time and we should get together and have lunch or a cup of coffee and stuff. That was four years ago and so the the my point being here is that if you don't know what to say, don't say anything right you'll do more damage than good if you try to figure out something or try and say something that you think is good it may.

Speaker 2 34:34

It may be somewhat offensive to to the person that's going through the grieving process. So what I typically will tell people is you know, number one, you don't have to say anything. And if you don't know what to say, tell me that.

Speaker 1 34:51

Right, yeah, that's what I was hinting at. Maybe, like in life, you don't give advice, you don't try to fix, just listen. Being there sometimes means just listening. But yeah, being vulnerable and saying, look, I don't know the right thing to say, that's probably the most authentic thing we can do. I just find, if it's well-intended, there's nothing anyone could say that I would take offense to.

Speaker 1 35:13

I love any gesture of condolence, but then again and this leads to the other question I wanted to ask I've been through mourning and loss and grieving in many ways, but my mom was probably the biggest loss and that was a year ago, a little over a year ago, and it's not complicated for me, and it might be because we had two years of mourning the loss of the woman we knew. It was a very some point, but as of yet feels like it's as good as it gets in terms of that elusive closure and healing. And so my hunch was maybe grieving is more complicated when either it's untimely, there's some kind of injustice, as in suicide or murder, maybe if there were unresolved conflicts in the relationship or unspoken resentments or unspoken fondness. Even Is it more complicated when there's like water under the bridge or some kind of circumstance that makes it tragic or untimely.

Speaker 2 36:20

So I may deviate, so you may want to pull me back if I go too far here, but the one thing that I have found that a lot of people get caught in and it's one of the myths or the misconceptions is that there are stages of grief.

Speaker 1 36:40

I've got them right in front of me, the five traditional ones, yeah.

Speaker 2 36:43

So I don't need to land on each and every one of those stages. I can miss one, miss two. I can start at the end and come backwards. All they are? They are tools to help guide you through the grieving process through the grieving process. They are not the definitive pathway that you may have to take. When I look at what I went through, denial was probably one of the first ones I encountered Not acceptance or anything like that, but actual denial. It was like why is this happening to me? And there was no answer.

Speaker 1 37:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1 37:34

So maybe the stage is they help people better identify what they might be feeling, but they certainly don't come in any order right, and then I think I've heard some can recur, or you know again that they're not on any kind of schedule, but maybe they're helpful in that people can identify what they're thinking and feeling.

Speaker 1 37:54

As an example, I'm a big, I'm not a purveyor of denial, I don't advocate it, but I'm pretty good at it in my own way, and I think I absolutely was in shock and denial about my mom, but it was when she first landed in the hospital. So I had two years to work through that denial, if that makes sense. So our hearts were prepared is the best way to put it when we finally lost what was left of her. So anyway, I don't know that there's any nice clean way to get through it, but I do think maybe it's more complicated when there's dysfunction or some kind of trauma that's unresolved and makes it a little more complicated. Right, virginia, We've had a couple guests where, you know, the unfortunate murder complicated the grieving process.

Speaker 3 38:41

Yeah, and I've had murder in my family, so it can. The grieving process yeah, and I've had murder in my family, so it can. But I was going to comment too I mean not to make it sound like I'm lessening your experience, dominic but you mentioned you felt more of that denial and being more upset when your mom first was in the hospital, and I think that's probably, I would say, the misconception when it comes to loss and grief is everything's. It's like when the person is, like physically no longer with us.

Speaker 3 39:11

But I think, at least from my own experience with grief um, from losing my parents to, um, when my daughter-in-law's mother was murdered, um, um and just kind of like, see that in losing my grandmother too, I mean I've noticed, and then just having like friends like you that have gone through you know loss as well that where we begin, like when the grief starts, is always a different journey. Sometimes it's at you know, literally when you're in the funeral process you know, sometimes it's you know when your family member first starts the diagnosis of being sick. So I think that has a lot to do with why, like Doug said, the stages of grief really aren't like this, where you're going to take milestone one, milestone two, milestone three, it's, it's very much a winding river that circles back around.

Speaker 1 40:10

I think we're saying the same thing, like in the spirit of the podcast and the book. Right, there's things that get mapped on our worldview and things that just fall away, and so that's why it was kind of a little bit talking about value judgments. We put on concepts like sorrow, you know when is it destructive and when does it have immense spiritual value, and so I guess I was hinting. As we've talked about, you know, there are many forms of loss.

Speaker 1 40:36

Therefore there's many types of mourning and grieving, and so if there's like the unfortunate murderer that at least one of our guests have talked about, you're not just dealing with the loss of the body or the loved one you once knew. You're grieving the fact that the world is a way shittier place than you could have possibly imagined, because you know what humans are capable of, right, you're grieving any illusions you had about human nature. That is, in my opinion, that makes a bigger chink in your worldview. The highly emotional experiences are the ones that get mapped. So I'm kind of putting it in clinical terms, but I think that's a bigger, much more jagged pill to swallow that life is unfair, there is injustice in this benevolent universe and that people kind of suck Like that's a whole different mourning process than just losing a loved one.

Speaker 2 41:27

Yeah, and then the next question that you know how does spirituality fit into all of this, and is that part of my coping mechanism?

Speaker 1 41:39

Right. When I hear that, I think of yeah, he is in a better place. We want to believe our loved ones who have passed are back with their loved ones and they're all sitting on a cloud somewhere right, or they've gone home, they've gone on to a better place. So do you feel that that's a mechanism we come up with societally to rationalize loss? Or I don't know. I don't know what your beliefs are spiritually. Is it helpful in the grieving process to have a belief system like that?

Speaker 2 42:10

I I'm well to be truthfully honest, and I'm that's one of my downfalls, I think, is I'm open and honest, but I I have, with the passing of my mom and then with the passing of Deborah, I went to a psychic slash medium to get closure. I wanted to know that they had crossed over and they were in a good place and, you know, they were no longer experiencing the pain and suffering that they had prior to passing. And I needed to have that, and I have recommended to other people that are really struggling that they may wish to think about this. So and I obviously here he goes again with the storytelling, but I storytell how I've gone through that process and what it did for me in helping me get closure, which helped me with my mental health, which helped me with my grieving process.

Speaker 3 43:14

I love the fact that you went into the spiritual side of grief, dominic, because the other thing that I kind of wonder is because we kind of are socialized at least even like some religions kind of socialize you to not be able to sit comfortably in grief.

Speaker 2 43:30

Like there's a discomfort in that.

Mentoring vs Traditional Therapy

Speaker 3 43:33

And I'm just curious, doug, what has been your experience, your own personal experience, and even when you've been, you know, mentoring those who are struggling with this, like, have you gotten comfortable sitting in that discomfort of that grieving cycle? Because it just seems, socially, that's probably why I think sometimes people don't know what to say, or they feel like they're saying something wrong, or they feel like if they don't say anything, it involves something you know, like that's not okay.

Speaker 1 44:00

Because we're socialized not to sit with the grief right.

Speaker 3 44:03

Right.

Speaker 1 44:04

So why would I trigger somebody else by acknowledging the fact that they right lost somebody?

Speaker 2 44:08

else, mm-hmm. You, over time, you develop the knack or the art of being able to frame what it is you're going to say in a fashion that it is not offensive to that particular individual. So it's getting a deeper understanding of their experience and how they're. Do they have the lived experience that they need to be able to navigate their way out of the troubled waters that they're in? Or you know, or do I need to be able to guide them through that process? Not tell them what to do, but to guide them? You know through that process and I think that you know, if I can, the feedback I've had.

Speaker 2 44:57

Certainly, and I just finished a contract here not too long ago where I was doing a lot of grief mentoring inside an organization, and the feedback I got was, number one, you make me feel comfortable in being able to share my story with you. And number two, I don't feel as though you're telling me what to do. You're guiding me and you're asking me questions that help me think is there a different way I could deal with this? And, in so doing, help speed up my mental health, my being able to deal with my grief, so my healing journey.

Speaker 1 45:41

Yeah, I do think it's worth acknowledging.

Speaker 1 45:43

It is very culturally relative when you have Day of the Dead, right in certain Latin American countries where you celebrate the shadow side, and many cultures are in the habit of consulting with their ancestors or their loved ones who have passed, and we're way less comfortable with grief in general or sitting with the grief Again.

Speaker 1 46:06

In certain countries you have professional whalers who throw themselves on the casket and they provide that catharsis for everybody else, but I don't know, I would say we're so uncomfortable with it. Suddenly we need grief counselors, right, and you're providing this, by the way, you know, making people more comfortable with grief across the board. But if we were more comfortable with it, I think we would embrace traditions like sitting Shiva, and I only mentioned that because I really learned more about it in preparation for this podcast. Sitting Shiva is exactly what we've been talking about, where, instead of going back to your daily life and functioning at all costs in crisis mode, you take the time out to feel your feelings and sit with the shadow, and it's traditional for others to come and, yes, bring food and just listen I, I actually really like how you uh explain.

Speaker 1 46:58

That makes sense I just think americans have a monopoly on brushing things under the carpet. And, frankly, if you don't feel your feelings, I mean there's a fine line, right. If we dwell in our feelings and perpetuate a narrative, that can be counterproductive, whereas if you allow yourself to feel them and embrace that shadow, maybe there's hope of moving past it and being released from it Again. In listening to some of these complaints about ooh, he said the wrong thing, she said the wrong thing it triggered me.

Speaker 1 47:31

If it's well-intended and there's not that factor that complicates the grieving process that I mentioned earlier, like it was unjust or untimely or tragic in some way, then it just seems like it's almost ego when you, rather than accepting loss, right, is the risk you take in loving is the risk of losing somebody, and so you can't talk about grief without talking about love.

Speaker 1 47:59

So, instead of experiencing loss as a natural part of life, right, or death as a natural cycle in life, it becomes triggering or taxing or it constitutes suffering of some kind. I don't want to go too too far down this road, but I think it's fair to say there's very real suffering in life. Physical pain is one of the big ones, but there are people like Eckhart Tolle or even Thich Nhat Hanh, that would probably say 99% of human suffering is mind-created and that's what I called ego sometime back. So it does have to do, in the spirit of this podcast, with the narratives we weave right and the stories we project onto circumstances and conditions that are otherwise quite neutral. So in that spirit, humans having kind of a monopoly on mind-created suffering, which is a product of ego, have either of you ever really looked at how animals grieve?

Speaker 3 48:56

I know when my dogs like when I lost my Schnauzer my shepherd.

Speaker 1 49:02

she howled and she did go through a grieving process before we brought in my other dog yeah, and they can actually exhibit strange behaviors that don't contribute to the propagation of right, the yeah, the pack. It can be very destructive actually, but in general it is a natural cycle in life. Sometimes when I hear who she said the wrong, she said the wrong thing, he said the wrong thing. It's ego. That's all I'm hinting at. We do develop an entitlement in life.

Speaker 1 49:32

Who said life was fair Really? Who said that by loving you, you're not risking losing something? It's a presumption that life is fair. I'm tying it back to story. Those are stories we build around things and project on them oh, that life is fair. And so when you start and I'm tying it back to story, those are stories we build around things and project on them oh, life is not fair, why me? Those are disempowering narratives that we sometimes attach to loss. I'll just leave it at that. It does seem rather ego-driven to me and if you can take the bigger view, embrace the meta-narrative that the love remains right.

Speaker 2 50:10

You have the memory, you, you have the benefit of having had that person in your life for however long I was just going to add that, coming back to you know the comments that we've shared around the triggering and all of those things is that with the triggers, if you're able to recognize that certain things trigger your sadness or your how you deal with things, they also, at the same time, can be providing you with the coping mechanisms that you need to recognize those triggers and kind of nip them in the bud before they become something of any significance.

Speaker 1 50:44

Yep, yeah, yeah. Or I mean I think just with everything, there's the possibility of reframing and, yeah, seeing the opportunity in a trigger, the only growth in life, whether it's spiritually, emotionally, what have you results from challenge. If everything was a cakewalk, you wouldn't literally grow. So maybe the reframing has to do with what is to be gained through this challenge. If everything was a cakewalk, you wouldn't literally grow. So maybe the reframing has to do with what is to be gained through this challenge. Look, I'm not saying it's a cakewalk and I certainly don't have it figured out, but I think life, it could be said you find the opportunity and things we would normally dismiss as tragic or unfair. There's always something to be learned or gained.

Speaker 3 51:24

So I was in my mind just kind of listening to everything too. I'm trying to remember how I wanted to frame this. But oh, when Dominic was talking about rituals, doug, do you talk to people about that? Because I know, like in Western culture, just in general I'm not going into the religious side I mean, the only real tradition we have here in the united states is the fact, you know, we have our funeral service or the memorial service and that's pretty much it when it comes to the ritual of of grief and you know, saying goodbye to a loved one.

Speaker 3 52:01

But you know, like, know, like Dominic mentioned there, you know some cultures do shit about. I actually my oldest is Filipino and when an uncle had passed on that side of the family it was like a whole week long process and I mean, I didn't even realize in a lot of Polynesian, pacific Islander type tradition that like they sleep with a loved one for a few days before they start the whole process of burial. So I'm just kind of curious, in when you're working with people, does that come up? Have you learned about other ways that people go through like these rituals to kind of help them through this process of grieving?

Speaker 2 52:47

I think the short answer is no. I don't dive into that, unless they specifically want me to go as I describe it. If you want me to walk beside you, beside you, you need to definitely let me know that you want me to be part of your journey. And if you do want me as part of your journey, I'm I'm touched, I'm honored, I'm more than happy to to do so. But to go down that pathway on my own, sort of uninvited, I guess is what I'll use May not well.

Speaker 2 53:29

it won't promote the relationship that I like to build with each and every person that I walk beside.

Speaker 1 53:42

Well, that does lead me to a question that I actually do have written down. So, virginia, I like that you mentioned specific rituals, and do you suggest them or impose them or not? If that's not the case, what does the mentorship practice entail, whether we're talking about grief or PTSD? What does it look like? Do you meet weekly? How does it differ from life coaching or therapy? In other words, what exactly does mentorship look like?

Speaker 2 54:06

it, you know it's it's the best way for me to describe it is it's the warm handoff that takes place between a professional so a counselor, social worker, psychologist, psychiatrist. So mentoring is the bridge between the two sort of genres, for lack of a better choice of words. So I know that there's a line in the sand that I cannot cross, where, if I start to do that, I'm crossing into the professional world of, you know, as I said before, psychologists, psychiatrists, all of that. That's not my place. My place is to be there to provide the support and to be able to listen, most importantly to listen and hear what that individual is saying and explaining how they're feeling and how they're dealing with things, and it's to let them know that I will be by their side for as long as they want. And together, you know, we'll go on that healing journey.

Speaker 2 55:20

And this is where I introduced the stories, to be able to say, you know, I, I lost. I lost my mom back in 2007., and the story goes on from there. Or I lost my wife in, you know, 2021. And you know she was my biggest fan, my biggest, and the story goes on from there. You know, and there's, you know, my, my father passing away and him and I not parting ways on good terms, and so the story goes on from there. So it's a matter of I feel very strongly that mentoring is a better fit for the grief world as we know it today. Mentoring is definitely a better fit. We know it today. Mentoring is definitely a better fit, and it's one that people are more receptive to opening up and sharing whereabouts they are on their healing journey, simply because of the mentoring process yeah, and nobody really escapes life without experiencing loss or grief in some way.

The Spirituality of Grief

Speaker 1 56:24

So it almost seems like it could have been titled you're not alone, too, right? I think there is immense value to know, especially when society sweeps it under the carpet. Right To know, you're not the first one to have ever felt that has got to provide some identification and, frankly, that's a form of support. So I think it's beautiful. I just didn't know literally if it's a form of support. So I think it's beautiful. I just didn't know literally if it's a weekly thing, if it's by phone, if you meet in person. Like what are the mechanics of mentorship?

Speaker 2 56:55

yeah, so, and I missed that, but it's a combination of in-person and virtual. Uh, it's also a combination of longevity of the relationship and knowing when we've our time together has drawn to a close and we how does one know um from the client's end?

Speaker 1 57:21

how do they know, when they've not, that you arrive in life right, but when do they feel they've got the, the tools to heal themselves and move forward, if that makes sense?

Speaker 2 57:31

to be honest, in some cases, um, there, there's no end to that relationship. It it just continues to go on. Whether it's dealing with the grief, it could end up being some other aspect of of things that they're dealing with that they want their mentor to. Uh, I like, I'm, I'm still, I'm still working with one individual, uh, from the organization that I was working with and I I made the offer to say you know I'm always there if you need me to reach out, and you know it's, it's kind of the old thing, be careful what you wish for. Um, I've ended up where we've continued our relationship. We've continued to digest and and break down.

Speaker 2 58:24

You know some of the challenges that this individual is going through, which in reality are causing her to struggle in dealing with her mental health, and so my function, or my role, is to be able to to be there to provide that guidance. Not to not to tell her how to deal with it, but just to provide the guidance so that she can continue to move forward.

Speaker 1 58:54

Got it, yeah, so it's sounds kind of indefinable. It's it's on a case by case basis a little bit. I'm sure you learned about a lot, not just through your mentoring, but, uh, in researching for the book and writing the book.

Speaker 2 59:09

Uh, can I just simply ask you what was the biggest discovery you made in writing the book, if, if anything, the biggest thing, I think, would be the fact that not everybody grieves the same, the grieving process is unique to each individual, and that my role as a grief mentor for lack of a better word, which is a term we use in the book is my role is one of not so much telling somebody how to do, but to let them know that I am here, I will walk beside them, I will help them, you know, in whatever way, shape or form I can in order to continue their healing journey, and that they need not go on that journey. And that they need not go on that journey A catchphrase they need not worry because they are not alone.

Speaker 1 1:00:08

Beautiful, I love it. Okay, I'm going to throw it back to you, virginia, before we bring it to a close, any questions?

Speaker 3 1:00:16

Well, I was just, and I love what Doug said, so I'm hoping that I'm not going to, I'm not making him reword pretty much what he just said, but I was just thinking, like, how you know, when we face grief, life being meaningless or just in that kind of despair that you know, ultimately we try to choose to love and hope and to live, and that is part of our existential courage in life. So I'm just curious what your answer would be to this. If grief could leave us with one timeless message etched into our souls, what do you believe, doug, would that message be?

Speaker 2 1:00:55

Could you repeat that again?

Speaker 1 1:00:59

I have the exact same question written down, virginia, but different words. I just said what is grief here to teach us? What does grief teach us in our journey, in our spiritual journey? Is that a similar question, virginia?

Speaker 3 1:01:10

Yeah, pretty much.

Speaker 1 1:01:11

What is grief here? Because some people actually haven't been through grief. You know, I hadn't lost anybody until college. My grandfather's funeral was my first funeral. So it's very distinct once you've lost somebody. You know what does grief teach us in life?

Speaker 2 1:01:29

You know what it did for me was the most important thing I think that I walk away from. Grief is the spiritual aspect, from grief is is the spiritual aspect I am. I have become a deeper, richer spiritual individual that relies on the spiritual side of my life to get me through those ups and downs, those, those tough mountains that I know I'm climbing or have to climb but, it's all.

Speaker 2 1:02:01

It all revolves around the spiritual aspect and it's, you know, like we talked about earlier, was the aspect of, you know, wanting to make sure that, you know, I got, was able to get the closure that I needed, and you know, when you talk about that with some people they kind of shake their head and they go, oh boy, this guy's, you know he's way out there well, I gotta jump in.

Speaker 1 1:02:30

You know, if you checked us out or read our description or listened to a single episode, you'd know that's how we roll and it's a given on this show. So I think the word spiritual shouldn't be triggering or problematic for anyone, because it's just everything, that's not your fucking body, and people are quickly triggered by it. So I will say, you know, in my 20s I wrote a short story about, uh, spirituality is a nightlight, how, until you have loss or some kind of tragedy, you don't really need that nightlight, you know. And then so I've made a very distinct event in which everybody had an arc, of course, and the characters that relied on a belief system for their comfort, uh, completely shifted to a nihilistic view of like oh my God, you know, there it's K, it's all chaos, there is no order. I guess it's like rationalism versus empiricism. And then the ones suddenly who had never really had any problems in life suddenly needed some kind of belief system for their comfort. So I think that kind of thing evolves all the time.

Speaker 1 1:03:34

But I've come full circle where again, you can't talk about grief without talking about love, and love is the one invisible that we all agree exists. So you know I'm tying everything together here, but Anderson Cooper's podcast. I think there's a reason it's called all there is because that is what's left right when you lose somebody, what's left the love. And that's not a platitude, that's the effing reality. And I mean I just wrote a 375 page book about really making a case for how you can take quantum mechanics and cell biology and a number of other sciences and prove our interconnectivity right. Collective consciousness, all these other things we like to just throw out with the bathwater and dismiss because they're not empirical. I don't know if I'm making any sense, but you're preaching to the choir when you talk about the spiritual aspect of it and I think that's the only way to talk about major life changing things like grieving, loss. It's the only context in which to talk about it.

Speaker 1 1:04:38

To go back to now, I'm just preaching to go back to something you said, virginia, you know whale. There was a whale. They observed an orca whale, I think, which isn't a whale, sorry, there was an orca who didn't understand death. There's a question as to whether they really understand it, because they don't have language to pass on, the tools to deal with grief. So this one mother carried her baby around on her back and whenever it started to sink she'd bring it back to the surface and it went. It was kind of disturbing. It went on way too long. For that matter, I have a good friend, whom I won't name, who, yeah, wouldn't let go of her dog for two days after it died and then she actually put it in the freezer. So at some point you know these are not particularly healthy behaviors, but I just think the more tools we have to deal with it the better, and I think just so. Do you acknowledge the spiritual aspect of it in your books? Out of curiosity, doug?

Speaker 2 1:05:35

I don't but just listening to our conversation today, as I made a commitment a while ago to my publicist that I would try to write one book a year, and I think we've just found the title.

Speaker 1 1:05:55

Do you want to share? Can you let the cat out of the bag?

Speaker 2 1:05:58

Well, you know, it's just it would be around grief and it would be grief, mental health, mentoring. What else would I? Yeah, I'd have to play with that.

Speaker 1 1:06:15

Well, surely those you mentor must talk about the role of a belief system in coping with loss. Do they bring it up?

Speaker 2 1:06:23

No.

Speaker 1 1:06:24

Really.

Speaker 2 1:06:25

And you see, that's one of the things is that's like the whole picture. You know how we sort of keep everything we don't like to talk about it openly, we stay hidden in the closet, and we were, were, it's, it's all of that stuff. It's like mental health. People don't like to talk about mental health or where they are with their own mental health, um, so they keep it bottled up inside and it would be.

Speaker 3 1:06:54

You know, it's much the same as what we're just talking about yeah, it seems like it's become a I don't want to say become it it taboo well, well, yeah, it's. It's basically a cultural stigma that has been out there and then which causes the socialization that we have toward it to where?

Speaker 1 1:07:12

yeah, sorry. Do you mean toward death, or are we talking about religion, spirituality?

Speaker 3 1:07:17

I think when we talk about grief and death and then bringing in the spiritual aspects into it, or even the mental health aspects into it, it just, I think we've been stigmatized. It's that socialization that we've had on how we look at it, that it's a negative versus a positive. I mean I know it's slowly shifting. I mean people are getting better, especially the younger generations, about mental health, but that's just kind of what it seems like, I guess, the best way to say. It seems like, you know, people feel like they're just stuck in this grief and they don't know how to swallow their sense of self anymore and or or to communicate that out there and so I'm.

Speaker 1 1:07:52

I'm gonna suggest that maybe, like the fact that it is such a taboo to talk about spirituality because of what institutionalized religion has done to that topic, that maybe people would have more tools to deal with grieving and loss even though that's still in Western European tradition, especially a Protestant tradition, where you keep a stiff upper lip right and you don't exhibit your feelings Maybe if we just had one more option, like you know what it's not a taboo to talk about spirituality that's true, we wouldn't be so uptight about all of it I, you know, I would agree that, um, I think that that it's it's been stigmatized, like a lot of other things especially, especially in the whole, if you kind of peel the onion skin back in the mental health world, there's a whole bunch of different aspects of it that we just don't like to talk about, and that's.

Speaker 2 1:08:54

you know, we were there a short while ago when it came time to deal with mental health, and you know, death by suicide and a whole bunch of other things taking place that we need to be able to get to a place where it's okay to share your story with other individuals because, guess what, they may have walked in similar pair of shoes so.

Speaker 1 1:09:27

So if the, if the trend is toward de-stigmatizing mental health issues right and saying everybody's got something, it's okay, you know which is? I think the the path we're on, we're de-stizing struggles with mental health. So it's the same for grieving. In other words, doug, people are ashamed to admit they're struggling with their grieving journey. Yes, well, I'll use myself as a guinea pig. I will admit I don't have the support I would like and again, without revealing too much, that's kind of why I mentioned that it can be more complicated when there's dysfunction, or a certain family narrative that's meant to be upheld, or alcoholism, or just there are complicating factors.

Finding Purpose Through Loss

Speaker 1 1:10:09

In my own, without throwing anyone under the bus, I have always heard and maybe you can address this one, doug, maybe you've heard it in your practice, but there is a perhaps myth, but there's a platitude that, oh, siblings come together after the loss of a loved one, a parent. Siblings grow closer after the loss of a parent. I've heard that my entire life and I've heard it said about specific in-laws oh yeah, they all. You know, they haven't spoken in 20 years and they all banded together and I'm still waiting for that to happen and, in my opinion, it's because I'm the only one without kids, so I don't have a built-in support network. You know they're relying on their entire dynasties. My sisters have grandchildren, so they've got the support, whereas I don't.

Speaker 1 1:10:52

So my siblings would probably, you know, point to that and um, but I just feel like I'm going through the grieving process alone. That, but I just feel like I'm going through the grieving process alone and I'm also a Scorpio. I really hold on to things. I would love to have more rituals. Let's go to her grave, let's bond, let's share memories. It's just not happening, at least not yet. So I don't know what the point there was, but kind of throwing myself out there, we do grieve alone. So I think you might've said actually in your prompts is it on us to reach out and ask for what we need, or should everybody just be available? You know what I mean Looking out for it all the time.

Speaker 2 1:11:35

Well, I think you know you've touched on a number of different things and things that I've seen. When someone has lost a loved one, so then we use that as a reason or an excuse to get together and we celebrate their life and all that stuff. But at the bottom of it is that and I've had that with my own family, where I've seen over and over and over again the only time we seem to get together is when someone has passed on and we deal with it that way. So people need to understand, they need to step out of that closet and they need to say look, I need help here, I need somebody that I can talk to.

Speaker 2 1:12:50

I went through you know you had mentioned no support structure to help you with your grieving process. I went through that with the police force, where that back in the early days, if you were to say I'm grieving the loss of someone, they'd say you're what? Because they didn't understand or didn't know what what that was all about and rather, rather than do something that may be inappropriate or not well received, they chose to do nothing and as a result of that, I chose a different coping mechanism. I turned to a bottle of scotch whiskey and that's how I dealt with the trauma that came from different situations, and then from there the trauma shifted to challenges with my mental health and all of those things. So you know it's do you? You have to ask yourself do I really want to continue this journey on my own, or would I really like?

Speaker 1 1:13:55

to have some, some help yeah, again, a lot of territory covered there too. But I would say, you know we've been joking lately. Yeah, hey, good to see you again, let's. Let's hang out soon, not at a funeral, like the only time we do see each other lately is at a service of some kind, and that's kind of a running joke.

Speaker 1 1:14:13

But I do think what came up for me is this idea of flowers to the living. We we don't often give flowers to the living, and in my mom's case, you know you never speak ill of the dead, so sometimes you hear memorials or tributes or eulogies that are completely fabricated. I felt like in my mom's case oh my God, every word was completely earnest and sincere, so I found it to be a very healing ceremony. But I guess what I'm getting at is like in my family we really don't visit the graves of our my grandfather, my grandmother, our ancestors, and I did ask a cousin once. I said why aren't we that kind of family? You know why not, and once they're gone, they're gone. You know why why not, and once they're gone, they're gone. But I'm a Scorpio and ritual means the world to me. Do you guys relate to any of this?

Speaker 3 1:15:06

I was going to say that's my, my family too. They don't go visit so um the 10 freeway out there in California. So forest lawn out there off the 10 freeway where the three, where the statues are, is where the family plot is.

Speaker 1 1:15:23

Are you talking about Glendale?

Speaker 3 1:15:24

Yeah.

Speaker 1 1:15:25

Okay, that's where my sister and my parents got married at the we Kirk of the hither and Michael Jackson's there too, by the way yeah.

Speaker 3 1:15:32

So, so, so I'm driving on the freeway, on the 10 freeway, and I'm passing that I look up to where those statues are and I'm like, oh hi, grandma, that I look up to where those statues are and I'm like, oh hi, grandma, hi, grandpa, hi, uncle Scott, I say hi to all my loved ones that are up there. Do I ever drive up there and actually go visit the grave? Nope, that is the ritual which I'm not proud of. But yeah, so my family is the same way, and I think about that now, with both my mom and my stepdad being gone, who are here in St George with me, and I've only been to their site three times, and I keep thinking I need to get my kids out there. I need to not continue that family tradition.

Speaker 1 1:16:07

Thank you, I support you. I support you in that. Yeah, we're the same way. But there's a beauty to that too. You know, when they're gone, they're gone. It means you cherish the memories, you feel the love in your heart. We're just not big on ritual, but I'm the one guy who is. So I support you, virginia, and you call my brother and get him to drive, because I don't have a car. I haven't visited my mom at all since she passed. I think it's horrible.

Speaker 3 1:16:33

Yeah, I understand.

Speaker 1 1:16:35

Thanks for listening, Doug.

Speaker 2 1:16:38

That's why we need you the best for listening, Doug. That's why we need the best.

Speaker 1 1:16:42

Are you going to send us a bill now? No, no, anyway.

Speaker 3 1:16:47

So I'm curious, Doug, just to get us back to focused on you. So for those who are stuck, like listeners who are listening to us, obviously Dominic and I occasionally get stuck in our own grief, even though our loved ones.

Speaker 1 1:17:03

It's pretty raw. We both experienced a lot of. Anyway, go on.

Speaker 3 1:17:06

Yeah, I'm just curious what would you say to us to help us when we hit that crossroad again and the grief process and we're healing me? What would be some words of encouragement, advice to help in those circumstances?

Speaker 2 1:17:27

two things. The first is that, uh, I want you to commit to not, uh, bottling up the grief and the feelings that you're dealing with. I want you to to reach out to somebody and and and talk about how you feel and what caused it. You know what were some of the, as we use the trigger word, what were some of the triggers to?

Speaker 2 1:17:54

be able to do that, so definitely that. The second is that if you can't find anybody that you, as of today, you have always, will have access to me and you can reach out to me and we will go through that conversation together.

Speaker 1 1:18:13

Well, thank you.

Speaker 3 1:18:14

Yes, thank you.

Speaker 1 1:18:15

Very nice. All right, yeah, and also, it's never too late, is that fair to say? I'm just going to quote the podcast. I just listened to it this morning and I just adore Anderson Cooper. And then, of course, amy Sedaris and David came on, who are like my second family. I adore both of them. So it's fresh on my mind. Forgive me, but they said you know, their mom passed in, I think 92, at the age of 60-something, and 20 years later they finally said let's go, I guess, scatter the ashes. So they did it as a family and they said nobody spoke. And David Sedaris actually said it's hard to get a word in edgewise with my family. Nobody will shut up. But yet they were completely silent and basically just said we wouldn't have traded it for the world. It really did bring them closer, but it also meant closure for a lot of them. So is that true? Have you found that to be true, that it's never too late to revisit or create some kind of closure for yourself?

Speaker 2 1:19:18

I would say so. Every year I go back to the old homestead and the local cemetery where both my mom and my father are buried and I clean up the gravesite and I spend a bit of time, and if the mosquitoes aren't too bad, I'll sometimes take a picnic, and I'll sit there and have lunch with the two of them.

Speaker 1 1:19:43

Nice, nice. And then I'm going to tell one more, just because, again, amy, she's amazing. One other thing she said that I hinted at earlier, that I want to leave listeners with too, is and I related to a lot. It was just a little anecdote, and she's such a funny storyteller. Lot. It was just a little anecdote and she's such a funny storyteller.

Closing Thoughts: You Are Not Alone

Speaker 1 1:20:00

Basically she was in the, you know, at at the market, in line with the cashier, and you know it starts out with like, oh, are you part of our frequent buyers club? No, I'm not Okay. Would you like to sign up? No, would you like to get on our email list? No, and then the whole credit card thing and finally she goes look, and it was basically just red tape, right, she just wanted to buy her chips and leave, whatever it was I think it was chips and she finally just goes. Lady, I'm grieving and I so related to that because, as you know, virginia, I've been through the ringer throughout the pandemic, just trying to recover my health, and I mourned life as I knew it, I mourned everything I knew, and so every day was not just, you know, chronic anxiety, but it was literally a mourning. So I just love that advice Just assume everybody's mourning all the time and that's to me just compassion. It's easier said than done, but I just love that advice.

Speaker 3 1:21:03

No, I love it too. I think that's very true and I think it helps us draw upon our empathy too, because you never know what kind of day somebody's having and we just sometimes assume things and I always think of, like the stupid saying that we all said as kids. But you know, when you assume something makes an ass out of you and it makes an ass out of me.

Speaker 1 1:21:23

Sorry for laughing, I like that, yeah, no, I just. It was, profoundly, I mean, the biggest, uh, for me the most damaging thing, and I like to think I built character and a lot of spiritual principles came of my trials, but it was when you see 22 year olds who had never had a problem in life not being able to, just in theory do you know what I mean? Take a step back and go. Yeah, my mommy and daddy are still paying my rent, but one day maybe I will experience loss, so I'm going to give this guy a break.

Speaker 1 1:21:56

So I started developing opinions about human beings and you know what I mean their frailty and their shortcomings and things like that, and that is the most. I guess it's called unkindness, you know. So when you're grieving, you do need kindness. Does that make sense a little bit? And what you're calling? You're calling it compassion and empathy, but I think it encapsulates her advice, encapsulates all of that, just because we're all grieving something at some point, whether it's again life as we knew it, a job market, maybe the economy, norms and mores are always changing. The world we live in is not the one I grew up in. I had to mourn that world, so I don't know, but I think it all says it's easier said than done, but try to see the world through the eyes of love and try to tap into your compassion whenever you can. All right, I've said my piece. Any final words? You'd like to leave our listeners with Any pearls of wisdom?

Speaker 2 1:22:58

You know, and I think we've kind of talked about this a lot but the big thing is is you know, the last thing that I would ever want to hear somebody say is that I've I'm really struggling with my mental health, mental well I'm grieving and all of those things, and are not? They've basically allowed it to manage them instead of them managing it? And, if anything, start to make the change in how you approach and deal with things. Know that you have people that you can reach out to. Know that it's not okay to keep it all bottled up inside, and that you have people that you can reach out to.

Speaker 2 1:23:40

know that it's not okay to keep it all bottled up inside and that you are not alone and you also have some of the best uh tools in your toolkit, and that's the stories that you have to tell and the stories you have to share with others and and leverage those as much as you possibly can.

Speaker 1 1:24:00

Beautiful. Yeah, that's our. Our podcast is about catharsis. So the more we tell our stories, the more we're maybe released from these complexes. You know, tell your story. Yeah, that's on brand for all of us. Anyway, thank you so much. We are going to be putting your links in the episode description. So does that include a link for mentorship? Let's say, they did feel like you know what I'm living with this, but I'm not managing it and I do want to reach out and it's time to take care of this and they have no resources. Are you offering mentorship? Will that link be in the bio or no?

Speaker 2 1:24:39

Yes, go ahead and put it in the bio.

Speaker 1 1:24:42

Yeah, there could be somebody. I mean, I feel pretty alone in my grieving Virginia, and I talk a little bit, you know, but certainly no offense to anyone, but my family are busy, let's just put it into that. But I'm sure there are people that don't have loved ones. You know, I feel pretty lucky. There's probably people out there struggling with grief that don't have anyone at all to reach out to.

Speaker 2 1:25:03

Oh, I can assure you that there's people out there.

Speaker 1 1:25:06

Yeah, yeah. So if you don't mind, we'll put that link in the description as well, all right. Well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it. Thanks for coming on.

Speaker 2 1:25:18

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity.

Speaker 1 1:25:21

Okay, and thank you, virginia, thank you, okay. And to our listeners, remember life is story and we can get our hands in the clay individually and collectively. We can write a new story. See you next time.