Joy as Empowerment with Urban Fantasy novelist DC Gomez

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"There's a hole in my soul when I'm not writing." 

Award-winning author DC Gomez shares how stepping into your creative purpose can transform your life. Listen to this powerful conversation about finding family, battling self-doubt, and adding joy to the narrative. 

Whether you're a writer seeking inspiration, a reader curious about urban fantasy, or simply someone searching for your own purpose, this conversation reminds us that our stories—both the ones we write and the ones we live—have the power to transform not just ourselves, but our collective experience.

DC Gomez is an award-winning USA Today Bestselling Author, podcaster, motivational speaker, and coach. Born in the Dominican Republic, she grew up in Salem, Massachusetts. One of DC’s passions is helping those around her overcome their self-limiting beliefs. She writes both non-fiction and fiction books, ranging from Urban Fantasy to Children’s Books. 

To learn more about her books and her passion, you can find her at www.dcgomez-author.com

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Transcript

Speaker 1 0:45

DC Gomez is an award-winning USA Today best-selling author, podcaster, motivational speaker and coach. Born in the Dominican Republic, she grew up in Salem, massachusetts. Dc studied film and television at New York University. After college she joined the Army and proudly served for four years. Dc has a master's degree in science administration from Central Michigan University, as well as a master's in in science administration from Central Michigan University, as well as a master's in adult education from Texas A&M Texarkana University. She is a certified John Maxwell team speaker and coach and a certified meditation instructor from the Chopra Center.

Speaker 1 1:24

One of DC's passions is helping those around her overcome their self-limiting beliefs. She writes both nonfiction and I'm sorry nonfiction, as well as fiction books ranging from urban fantasy to children's books. To learn more about her books and her passion, you can find her at wwwdcgomez-authorcom. Some of her titles real quick and there's way too many to list here, but some are in the urban fantasy genre. We have Death's Intern Plague, unleashed Forbidden War, unstoppable Famine, judgment Day From Eugene with Love, the Hitman, the Traitor, and Cursed by Fur, which I believe is the latest release that we're going to talk about today, and then in the alternative history genre, we have the Origins of Constantine, rise of the Reapers and Recruited. Then there's contemporary fiction. She writes in a variety of genres, so hopefully we'll pick her brain about that too. Okay, welcome, dc Gomez.

Speaker 2 2:27

Hello, thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure being here.

Speaker 1 2:31

Of course, yeah we're excited.

Speaker 3 2:32

Yes, we are.

Speaker 1 2:33

Thanks for taking the time. I don't know where to begin with you because, yes, do you identify as multifaceted or versatile in terms of you know all the genres in which you write?

Speaker 2 2:45

I usually go back and forth between being a multi-genre author. Lately I'm going as an urban fantasy author who dabbles in different genres. So it depends on the mood. I tend to let the universe kind of guide in those conversations. Right now, since I'm doing more urban fantasy than anything, I'm very identifying as an urban fantasy author.

Speaker 1 3:06

Right, yeah, I like that. It helps us a little bit, you know, just in terms of focus. But yeah, I think I would argue that creatives have multiple, multiple vehicles of expression and we'll get into that more later. But to stay on brand, as we said at the outset, we do like to ask a rote question of all of our guests and it's kind of fascinating to later, you know, see the universals and then you know, all creatives come from different molds, so we like the variety, but there tend to be some universal responses that come up. So I find it fascinating I think you do too, virginia not to twist your arm.

Speaker 3 3:39

Yes, I do.

Speaker 1 3:40

And we said we might create a little highlights reel, because it's very much what we're here to illustrate. Okay, so the real question is what do you feel DC has been the traditional role of story in culture, both the telling of story and the partaking of it?

Speaker 2 3:58

As a storyteller, I think stories are kind of the glue that brings humanity together. One of the things that most people tend to remember more than anything else is a story. You can be at any seminar, you can be at any conversation preacher, minister, you name it. Most audiences are going to remember the stories that connect to their soul, the things that bring them together. It's usually the things that create the real impact in our society. If you think about it, we tend to remember the documentaries of the things that happened and how it impacted a society, instead of a list of facts so stories as a whole.

Speaker 2 4:33

there's a really grounding sense it's also the way how we told our history throughout our generations.

Speaker 2 4:39

We told our history verbally and it was based on stories. And that's how cities, this is how clans out, this is how everybody connected at a very soul level. So even now, you know, one of the things that the john maxwell teaches is, if you're going to give a speech, you need to have so many stories in there in order for people to connect. So it is that grounding glue that brings us all together and kind of brings that universe of like oh, this is what humanity feels at a small level beautiful.

Speaker 1 5:07

Yeah, that's beautifully put, wow, yeah I guess this is a little premature, but it leads me to ask I did have this question when reading your bio what exactly is the john maxwell team speaker? Uh aspect of you? What does that mean when you say, there, this is what we talk about in the maxwell team, uh, tell me about it, I guess is. I have no idea what it is and I'm sorry I didn't get to that point in my research.

Speaker 2 5:31

Absolutely don't worry about it. I love to tell you so. For anybody who's not familiar, john maxwell is a speaker, coach, author. He has over 100 books and in the last six, almost eight years now, he decided to start teaching his principles. So how he teaches leadership. He has a global organization that does amazing work, but one of the things that he specifically teaches is how do you break down teaching storytelling, how do you break down coaching, how do you break out these leadership factors that made him so amazing throughout, you know, over 40 years. So one of the things that we teach a lot of the team members when we work into trying to be able to create and bring to the university intellectual property is how do you become a public speaker and what are those assets? So not only are we getting taught how to truly teach his principles, but you're also figuring out how to better communicate, both as a speaker, mentor and a coach. And it's interesting. When you asked about storytelling, I was like, oh, that is so in tune with what we do because in order to connect with people, you tell stories right

Speaker 1 6:33

whether the story is or persuade people. Right story is the best way to persuade.

Speaker 2 6:39

It's kind of maybe the only way it is the way to create a visual without preaching and beating somebody over their head, pretty much bringing it home in a way that they're like oh, that's how that impacts my life or how it impacts other people's lives. So I love the connection between all these pieces.

Speaker 1 6:56

Yeah, well, I guess I have to pursue that. I can't help myself. You know, that is what the book is all about. Is, as Virginia and I say, the infinite forms that story takes. Life is story right, whether it's politically campaigning or propaganda advertising, it's in every aspect of life. So my question is because in the writing of the book, of course, I explored a lot of schools of thought on it, and then my brother-in-law is a communications instructor, so debating persuading is his sort of field, and my sister, his wife, just did a TED Talk, so they have their own formula right. But I guess I'm just wondering in all of that, does John Maxwell talk about the chemical basis of persuasion?

Speaker 2 7:47

And sort of you know the tribal bonding and identification that takes place on a chemical level, depending on which track you want to follow, whether you want to be a public speaker, a coach and a mentor. We do talk about how are these principles align the science, because I think sometimes it's easy to say, hey, you feel this way, but as an individual, many of us are very science driven we want to know the science behind it.

Speaker 2 8:04

We want to know is it really proven? Are you just telling me this because it sounds good and you're trying to make me feel better? So a lot of the principles that they do teach, they back it up with science in terms of like this is what science does and you have the intellectual understanding of. Not only are you creating a feeling it is back with science and how we convey it across the board.

Speaker 1 8:25

Yeah, that's what I'm getting at, like literally the, you know the neurochemical level of it, but also there's, you know, the modes of persuasion, like logos, ethos. Do you go into all of that, because I think it can seem a little too mechanical. Writers want to keep the process mysterious and romanticized in some ways, but in advertising or, you know, political campaigning, as I said, it's a little more of a science. I think sometimes authors want to keep it mysterious, if that makes sense mysterious it's.

Speaker 2 8:59

To some extent it's more intuitive.

The John Maxwell Team Experience

Speaker 2 9:00

I don't know there you go as an author, we're not usually having to analyze the reasons we do these things right we tend to go with that gut feeling of like this flows really well, you can study in any you know creative writing course or break down the structures you have act. You know what is the art, what is the act, what is all this? At the end of the day, most authors will just add their flavor to all the structures and guidance to make that story flow, because sometimes some of the best authors we know are the ones who break all the rules.

Speaker 1 9:31

They know, right, right, and then they twisted them right.

Speaker 2 9:34

So it's as much as we always want to say. You know, you have all the rules you can follow and all the techniques. You still have that intuition that guides that story and those characters create that world that you're trying to. You know, present to your readers and bring them into them right.

Speaker 1 9:50

Yeah, I think another way that's put sometimes is you know, yes, you have to know the rules in order to break them, but we also hope that the rules or the technique becomes second nature, so that we can just be intuitive and express ourselves. So you know, having taught in the arts my entire adult life, I just love the parallels. No matter what your discipline is, there are universals when it comes to the creative process. So I do love that. Sometimes in a program like Art Center that's very rigid, or even an IntelliA program that's sort of about the old master's techniques. At some point, yeah, we all get stifled by technique and maybe our creative expression suffers so we're not as intuitive because we get hung up on the technique. We all hope that it all comes together right and it's second nature at some point I completely agree.

Speaker 1 10:38

I think that's a beautiful way to say it is that you officially understand it and you can flow with it without getting stopped by it or distracted yeah, and we all know when it's flowing right, right, when we have access and I have to warm up personally if I haven't written in a while you just do something that's low stakes and kind of warm up and then, yeah, you have access to your intuition. Anyway, I'm just kind of following up on what you said. I think, yeah, we're on the same page about technique. I just wasn't quite sure and I guess I'm going to research him after today's conversation, the John Maxwell approach. But yeah, I think you can learn about the science till the cows come home.

Speaker 1 11:14

Kubrick once said all that matters is you got to put pen to paper. You know you learn tricks theoretically, but writing is the best way to find your voice. Okay, so again, in the spirit of kind of staying on brand for us, I want to start back way up, if you don't mind. What makes you a writer and when did you first maybe realize? I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you know that that was a calling or a pursuit that you wish to pursue.

Speaker 2 11:43

Probably the strange writer that I'm going to tell you that I've always known I'm a storyteller. I don't think I've always known that I was a writer, if that makes sense. I went to school for filmmaking. I practiced different medias of communicating the stories. It wasn't until I want to say, 2017 that I found myself pretty much sick and tired of everything that I was doing. I wasn't being creative in any form.

Speaker 2 12:07

I was living the life that everybody says. You know, I had a job, I had a house, everything you're supposed to do, and yet I was sick and tired and I was miserable, I was not truly living my purpose. And I found myself literally in the kitchen of my spiritual director at the time just crying, and the idea of writing this book came out and, like everything we do, we have 50, 100 million reasons why we can't right. Right, we all do, you know, right, hey, you should do this. Then I had them all and she didn't care. I did this thing, I laughed, like everything I said.

Speaker 1 12:39

She just shut it down you got to quiet a lot of voices, a lot of voices of doubt, and you know societal things you've internalized. Yeah, we all have to give ourselves permission right to explore our creative drives.

Speaker 2 12:52

Absolutely. I needed her to kind of challenge me to get out of my way.

Speaker 3 12:57

And.

Speaker 2 12:58

I had nothing to lose. I was in this place and I started writing as an escape. And the question came back what am I going to write about? I'm going to do this novel, but it gave me pretty much a focus and a very much tone of vision of something that I needed to find myself in, and the book was for me to give.

Speaker 1 13:17

What was that? What was that first uh novel that you embarked on?

Speaker 2 13:21

my very first book that I decided to tackle is Death's Intern, so it's book one in the intern diary. Sorry, and it was very much my coming home. You know it's like the prodigal son story. It was very much. I have nothing left and I put it all on the table and I, committed to this project, worked learn how the principles of writing novel that is very different than working on a script or in a short story truly worked on outlines and arcs and then figuring it out, all which became the most fun you can possibly have in tackling something totally new.

Speaker 1 13:55

Here's what I hear. In that, though, art reflects life, right, but it's even more transcendent and maybe speaks to people more when it's in real time, right? So the things you were just sounds like, the things you were battling and overcoming in real time, made their way into the novel.

Speaker 2 14:11

It was a very soul searching experience because I was able to have fun and to this day, while Death Enter is still my baby, there's still some separation. It's not truly one of the books that I can tell you I'm absolutely vulnerable. It is urban fantasy at its greatest. You have a talking cat, you have kidnapping and searching, all the fun things and explosions. That makes urban fantasy at its greatest. You have a talking cat, you have kidnapping and searching, all the fun things and explosions that makes urban fantasy. It wasn't probably until I wrote the cat lady special that I can tell you I got vulnerable because I had to open up right about myself to add into these books.

Speaker 2 14:42

But it got me to writing and it got me to finding myself and I think we all need, like you said, somebody to give you permission. We all need that little push we've got to give ourselves permission.

Speaker 1 14:53

But yeah, I find it fascinating. Maybe you've heard this before, maybe not, but you know, again, having taught in the arts and just seeing the different voices of doubt everybody has to silence or squelch and very a lot of variations on that right. Men deal with different things than women do and, um, societal expectations and you know, fear of failure and all these things. But I find it fascinating that you bit off quite an ambitious chunk. Uh, I I talk about, you know, the procrastinators in the world will research a novel for seven years but their subconscious fear of, you know, falling short of their own expectations or not receiving critical acclaim and therefore being shamed, like all those fears really prevent them from ever putting pen to paper. Um, or, what I was getting at is most people would just write a poem here, there, and dip a toe in, and you know, you bit off a huge chunk for your first indulgence, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 15:52

I'm an extremist. That's the reality. Everybody who knows me like I press buttons and.

Speaker 1 15:57

I'm an extremist.

Speaker 2 15:58

So we're either going to commit or we're not. It was all in or we're not going to do this, and that's kind of how that jumped into the book. You're describing my experience when I had to then decide to promote this book, and that was another huge challenge. You know, the book was written as out. It's a really fun book and it took a dear friend of mine to say, hey, I was looking for you on Facebook to share the book and you're not there and I was like, yeah, I don't do social media and she's like but but how are you gonna tell people about this book? And she's like having much more of an emotional moment than I was. I was like what she's like you have to understand. I read all the time. I'm like, okay, it's like it's a great book. Why are you not sharing? And that was a huge wake up call.

Speaker 1 16:39

Have you thought ahead about getting it out there? You know, sometimes we write in order to be heard, you know, to tell our story, and we, we want that full circuit. We want to feel that it's landed. Did that even cross your mind? What's going to become of it when I finish this project?

Speaker 2 16:53

no, wow it was probably the only way that book was able to get published was because I was not trying to figure that part out. Love it, because I couldn't. I can only tackle one thing, and the thing was to write the book. Everything else became secondary. It was the only way for me to be able to start it, to finish it, to put it together I think this is all interrelated because my sister and I have agreed there should be.

Speaker 1 17:18

You know, there's many models of the creative process. The wallace model is the most widely accepted, but none of them talk about what the hell happens when you quote, unquote, finish it and either it collects dust under the bed. You touch one person in a cornfield in Iowa, or you know a family member and that's enough. Or you really want to reach a global readership and contribute right and make your difference in the world, and it's a real calling or a sense of purpose or a ministry. There's all kinds of outcomes, but I love this idea that when you concern yourself with outcome, it actually can inhibit the creative process. So your goal was to finish the book.

Speaker 2 17:54

I had one purpose. Now, after years of being in the business, I tend to separate the writing world into separate lanes.

Speaker 2 18:01

I have the art, I have the craft and I have the business the art to me is always the sitting on the couch and writing the book and playing with the outline and just putting the words to paper. The craft is when you edit and you polish and you make this ready to publish and printable that other people can read it. The business of it is all about the marketing and the connecting with others. So I tend to keep my links very separate because each one of them brings something totally different to me. I know what my favorite is it's always going to be the art. It's always going to be the art. It's always going to be the creation.

Speaker 2 18:32

But I finally got to the point where I enjoy all three and most of my friends and most authors that I meet I'm very much into. They will prefer one or the other, or they don't want to play in the business or they only want to do the art. I think we make it very difficult to cross over to all three when you have the sense that the other ones are just work, beautiful.

Speaker 1 18:54

If you think of it as drudgery.

Speaker 2 18:56

Yes.

Speaker 1 18:58

And, by the way, you know this is a conversation. I'm sorry if I'm jumping in too much but I think sometimes for listeners we do have aspiring writers or, you know, creatives of any ilk that I think you know get stuck at some point. We all have blank page syndrome or empty canvas syndrome at some point. And when I mentioned the word romanticized a moment ago, sometimes knowing the creative process better and your own way of operating within that removes those blocks. So I just relate to everything you just said and I would say my friend Dave Zabosky, who's come on on just a little shout out, calls it the hot and cold stages of the creative process. So you don't just go for the goal, you kind of stalk it is the way he puts it right and you circle it and use, you kind of zone in on it. But within that you vacillate from hot and cold or intellectual and more intuitive, as we said.

Writing Process and Character Development

Speaker 1 19:49

So do you feel when you promote? I mean I've had students say, oh, I love the inspiration stage, I love thumbnailing and that lightning strike of inspiration is very energizing to me, and then the execution of it feels a little bit more like drudgery. So if I can get them to embrace, maybe, the meditative quality of doing the grunt work you know, or whatever it is, but understand it. May feel less inspired, but it's got immense value right To the completion of the project. So I, I love it. It sounds like you came around to. Promoting is a way of sharing and there's a lot of satisfaction in that. It took me a while.

Speaker 2 20:26

Yes, it took me a while to get to that place where I find it. That is a lot of fun to honestly, just talk about it, one of the things that I had to come to terms with it. That is not about me. It's about the readers and their experience. It's about getting them excited about a book and learning about what makes them readers and what makes them tick. And when I took the pressure off that I didn't have to talk about myself, because to some extent most authors tend to be fairly introvert, like when he's talking about me.

Speaker 2 20:54

That gets uncomfortable. When he's talking about books, we all get excited and giddy. When you want to talk to me about my books, that's even better.

Speaker 1 21:01

I was like oh my god, let's talk about characters you just want to know how it lands with people, or that it moved or touched them. I call it interpretive feedback. You know if something's out there. You don't necessarily want critical feedback, but I think it's everything to a creative to know how you're, you know how the circuit's being completed, how it's landing with a patronage, a readership. You know an audience.

Speaker 2 21:24

Absolutely. I don't think anybody has to come and tell you how they feel, so the fact that they do is such a rewarding moment. It's such a mind-blowing experience because I'm like you didn't have to tell me, you didn't have to find me, so it's amazing, it's beautiful.

Speaker 1 21:39

One of the most satisfying things I've ever done creatively is at our center again, taught for 20 years. You know you can't like assign your own book, and it's a law, I think, 20 years. You know you can't like assign your own book, and it's a law. I think you can't demand that anybody buy your intellectual properties, but I thought I own this, I can assign it for one assignment and you know there's no estate to approach about. You know intellectual property rights, blah, blah, blah. And so you know the students just interpreted one scene of my urban fantasy novel and it was mind-blowing. How wow. They got my intention, but according to their own worldviews and sense of aesthetics, and it was just so satisfying to see the different interpretations of it.

Speaker 2 22:19

You get to truly see what they understood and how they connected. One of the things I try to remind everyone is the books are only mine until you start reading them. Then they become yours.

Speaker 1 22:30

Oh, I love that.

Speaker 2 22:31

I'm just the keeper of these characters. My job is to make sure I don't hurt them too much in the process, but they're yours, if you think about it. Books, whether you are reading a paperback, hardback or you're listening to audio, and the most personal relationship you're going to get is the only thing you're going to take to the bathroom with you and not have to share with people.

Speaker 2 22:49

They're in your bed like it's personal so when you're thinking of writers and our connection to your readership. Once somebody connects to your books, they become part of their family and, as an author, you have the immense pleasure of knowing that you gave them something to get lost in and that they truly enjoy and love, like a person or a pet that they care for, and it's just our responsibility to treat them with the same respect that they do.

Speaker 1 23:17

Beautiful, yeah, and that leads this is a question, believe it or not but leads to something I've thought about a lot, which is, I think, maybe far be it for me to decide what makes a great writer, but I do think most writers become sort of experts in knowing what's culturally relative, what's universal, what's so subjective and personal that you might lose some people you know. But also you leave room for the projections of the patron, right, do you? Do you appreciate that that, yeah, I can get to know my character inside out and their backstory and their internal dialogue, but do you account for the projections of the reader as well, if that makes sense?

Speaker 2 23:57

It does. I'm actually a very strange writer. Which drives a lot of my readers insane is I don't tend to give a lot of backstory to the characters. One of the things that I find myself is I tend to learn the characters as the readers do, so we tend to go on the same journey.

Speaker 1 24:14

I call them.

Speaker 2 24:15

Oh yeah, I tend to call them. I date my characters. We tend to date each other on the page, and I'm always like Ooh, that was interesting. One of my favorite situations is the hitman series is actually a spinoff or a continuation of the intern diaries and one of our characters goes off in his story and the very beginning you find out that he has a crush on isis.

Speaker 2 24:37

You know the main lady in the intern diaries and everybody's like oh my god, I knew it I'm like you did, because I didn't like how did you know that I could explain this to me? How did you figure this out? And they're all like, yes, I saw this from the beginning and I was like, really okay, because eric wasn't talking to me, so I don't know how you got all that because it's between the lines isn't that amazing.

Speaker 1 24:59

Yes, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but yeah, yeah, I like that idea and I would say too, just to add to it, way back when I was 19 in junior college I backstory doesn't matter as exposition. Their actions and their dialogue can slowly fill in those gaps, if that makes sense without a whole bunch of exposition.

Speaker 2 25:41

I love it. It's usually sometimes hard for everybody, especially for my science, you know, science, military, science fiction who want to have the entire backstory in order to tell it. I think, as urban fantasy writers, we don't have to. We just kind of pick up in that moment in time and just keep running with it.

Speaker 1 25:58

Yeah, and I love what you said about discovering the character as you go. You know Madeline L'Engle talks about that a lot how and we have all experienced it they take on a life of their own right and then it's like oops, they just had to die, whoops, or whatever. They do take on a life of their own and we discover them as we go.

Speaker 2 26:18

It's not easy for many writers, but it works for me really well Beautiful and it's fun.

Speaker 1 26:25

Virginia, I know you have questions, but I will say I want to get to the point of maybe talking about genre writing and specifically vampires. I have some questions on that, but anything so far. Virginia, you want to jump in?

Speaker 3 26:36

I, I love, I love the whole concept of of dc when you said you know you're, it's basically like you're dating your characters. Because I feel like then it becomes more honest, more authentic, because you're discovering that relationship you know with, with your characters. And I've I've had authors tell me not very many but a few that are like you know, they become like friends and family to me and when they've got to go, they got to go and I'm more. I'm more in that loss. But at the same time I feel like the relationship we developed in the story together, as we told it, you know, felt more real than if I would have done a character sketch and like, stuck to like this rote kind of outline of writing, you know.

Speaker 2 27:23

I agree. I don't know if they have to go. I don't mourn them. I tend to mourn my characters when they go off. I I'm very much a believer that the emotions you're feeling as you're writing tend to transmit to the page, so I know when I'm crying my readers are going to cry. There's nothing we cannot feel about it. We are all creators and you adding these layers of feelings to your page and a lot of the times like, oh my god, people like I cry.

Speaker 2 27:47

I was like me too, and they're like really, I was like it hurt, like this was painful for me as well. So I tend to appreciate it when they feel the same emotions that I do, as I'm putting them to the page because it connects, it gives you that feeling yeah, it's a beautiful illustration of how it transcends.

Speaker 1 28:05

You know, I think inspiration always transcends, no matter how much drudgery enters the execution right of a project.

Speaker 1 28:12

If it was inspired at the outset, it seems to transcend. But also maybe if we um, I don't know I try to draw on life experience, there's no way around it, really, right, it's been said that every novel is a snapshot of the author's psyche at the time of the writing. There's almost no way around that. But also, also, if you can find whether it's a plot detail, if you can draw on something just for texture, ambiance, more authenticity or an interaction right, or the emotional content, of course, it's going to be more powerful if you can take the time to get in that space and draw on personal experience. My sister she won't mind me saying this literally wallows on the floor, you know, and then starts with poetry, so that it's nonlinear and intuitive, as we said, then starts to structure it. I don't have to necessarily jump through those hoops, but I know it when I'm connected, and if I'm not, I take a break, you know, I go for a walk and then I come back.

Speaker 2 29:06

And with you in that part, I'm very much aware that I am a happy writer so yes, I have to be in a very happy mood. If my mood is very dark and gloomy, I don't tend to write, but I also find it very interesting that you said those little nuggets that connect as people read my books.

Speaker 2 29:24

I have been accused probably not unfairly of making people hungry, because I'm always talking about food but, you can tell the state of my diets, that I am based on the books and what, what I'm tackling with and what I find to be interesting. Everything from like not eating meat to having food intolerance all of that is there. People like what were you thinking I was having those issues so I needed to share with people? Well, that's kind of what I meant that's what I meant by real time.

Speaker 1 29:54

You know, again it's, it's like there's no way around it. I think your worldview is reflected and you know, and they also say, every character within a novel is an aspect of the author's psyche. I, I just don't see any way around that. But as an added thing I've noticed, I'm trying to remember, but like a documentary that I heard the director speaking about, it tends to reflect life in real time. But if you're going through a transition and you're transforming through the creative process while executing that documentary, it so speaks to people. I don't know if that makes any sense it does absolutely.

Speaker 2 30:29

Our processes and what we're looking through will connect, sometimes at a soul level. Maybe that's not often intellectually sometimes, but definitely at a soul level and people will have this question. It's like that touched me and they might not be able to rationalize the purpose, but they know there was something right that they connected it's magical.

Speaker 1 30:50

You know I've had act. Sorry, virginia, if I've told this one, but I I did cast one of my films and sometimes it really just comes down to like who's available. You know, you line up the headshots and you just consider the screen presence and the chemistry. But it is largely gut level every single time. You know, if you've engaged fully in the creative process you will transform. So, without you know, I became friends with my actors. They're my babies, just like.

Speaker 1 31:16

Right, our characters in our novels are babies. You spend so many hours editing with them in a dark room, you fall in love with them. So they've all become friends. But one by one, every one of them would say yes, I pick scripts that resonate with me because, right, there's some unexamined level on which I relate to the character. But I mean mabel changes her husband's diapers, you know, and turns him in his bed so he doesn't get bed sores, like she's the primary caretaker, my character for her husband. Oh my god, nancy lived that. She didn't tell me until after. You know, one by one, every actor said I, I lived that character's arc that is huge and powerful and makes you want to go wow I just think there's a magical element to it yes, absolutely okay, I do have questions about genre writing and vampires.

Speaker 1 32:08

Should we go there virgin or do you have anything else you want to slip in?

Speaker 3 32:12

Oh, I just want to slip in just kind of what you guys were just talking about too. I mean, it was just making me think about. What we say a lot here on the podcast is how we're often, you know, walking stories ourselves, and it's that mix of who we are, you know who we've been and who we're trying to become, that, I think, draws us into really honoring that inner world of those characters.

Speaker 1 32:34

Yeah, which leads to a question, dc, when you look at your body of work over time because you're very prolific, you have a lot of titles and I've heard you talk again on other podcasts about you know why you might be more prolific than another author. Or I think you said you know you don't juggle projects, you're pretty linear, but anyway you have a huge body of work. Do you see that it reflects your transformation, your emotional maturation or your spiritual evolution, anything like that, or do you have the perspective to see that?

Speaker 2 33:05

I probably if you would have asked me three years ago, I'm like no, I have no idea what you're talking about. Now, as I get older, I'm able to kind of truly see not just the growth in the art but also in myself and how much more willing and open I am to be vulnerable on the page. And how much am I willing to add myself into those places? I remember starting with death. There's something safe about urban fantasy. When you have a talking cat, there's something safe when you have magical elements.

Speaker 2 33:37

There's nothing safe when you're writing contemporary about a divorced woman. Been there. You talked about your office connect. I've been there. Those moments when something hits you and you're on the floor crying and falling apart, there's no cover. You know that the cat lady special. When I wrote it, a lot of my readers was like I was not prepared for this and I was like neither was I like this is raw and it's kind of that growth and being comfortable.

Speaker 1 34:03

I call it the darkness within ourselves.

Speaker 2 34:04

you know we all want to be in the best version of us, but having to be very comfortable with the fact that there's those layers that sometimes we're not as happy or prepared to share Our books tend to pull it out of us in a way that sometimes we're not even realizing that it's happening until we go back and start the editing process and be like did I put that there?

Speaker 3 34:28

How did I get there?

Speaker 2 34:28

What's going on, so I can see the transformation and be much more comfortable embracing it right in that way that I call it embracing the shadow.

Speaker 1 34:37

Right here on the podcast thomas moore talks a lot about, you know, the young in shadow side of the human condition and I don't know I think artists are pretty good on. Not that we have a monopoly on seeing the beauty and the melancholy or the beauty in the shadow, but I think it tends to happen, you know. So, when you sanitize that couldn't. I don't know. I don't like gratuitous anything. You know I don't like fluff, I don't like it there for titillation or to, you know, feed an addiction to cortisol or adrenaline. But you take the yin with the yang right and if you've got an outcome that's redemptive in your story, you've got to show the good with the bad for that to pay off, if that makes sense. But I would also say I've argued a little bit that you know, because my sister is really into literary fiction. She's probably never read genre fiction in her life and she's just had a lot of influences, instructors, that really elevated above all else, not just memoir or autobiography but literary fiction.

Urban Fantasy and Vampire Mythology

Speaker 1 35:34

And I've argued actually you can tell a heightened truth when you invent a narrative right. It's not that it's safe I don't relate too much to. Oh, it's safer to have a talking cat, you know. But I do think that you can tell a heightened truth that's more universal. If you honor a template, like you know, through the rabbit hole or the hero's journey, and you incorporate archetypes that are universal and stand the test of time, it doesn't mean it's inauthentic or it lacks truth. It can tell a heightened truth in a very different way. Does that make sense in this context? A little bit.

Speaker 2 36:07

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 36:08

Anyone? No, you're correct.

Speaker 2 36:10

I think when I think about myself and being able to visualize myself, there is something very gauging when I have certain characters, because they can say and do the things that I think I personally would never be able to pull off.

Speaker 1 36:25

I love it things that they give your alter egos.

Speaker 2 36:28

Yeah, absolutely well. They truly are still the creative right of putting this together. It doesn't feel like me, you know, like they're saying the things that all of us would like to say out loud, but we can't, and it gives you that kind of shelter behind that you can say okay, there's a balance in the world and it'll be okay yeah, I mean in a secret, I was conscious.

Speaker 1 36:48

The two characters were different aspects of my psyche that were battling it out, and I don't know if they ever figured it out or if I did. But do you know what I mean? You're reconciling different paradigms in your and I just don't think there's any way around it. So when I asked if you kind of can look back at your body of work and see how you've evolved, I guess what I was hinting at is sometimes it is, you don't see it in the moment and then in retrospect you can see an arc. But I also notice, oh my God. Like you know, I'm talking about the same damn themes as when I was 22.

Speaker 1 37:19

It's always about overcoming. You know, it's the loss of innocence template. And what do you do with that? How do you either return to innocence or preserve innocence while you come of age? It's all universal stuff. But I did think, oh my God. I wrote about overcoming I would have called it disillusionment back right in the nameless Prince days, Virginia and then the next novel was about overcoming futility, which is a little different than disillusionment, but they all fall under preserving innocence, which clearly is important to me. So sometimes I think oh my God, I haven't grown at all. Do you see any common threads, thematically, if that makes sense that tie all the work together, Because you do write in a variety of genres. Is there a common? I'm not forcing you to analyze this, by the way. I just wondered if any of this occurred to you like oh wow, there is a common thread between you. Know, I think you even wrote devotionals, is that what they're called?

Speaker 2 38:11

I have, so here's the fun part is, I have been asked this before because everybody wants to know what connects you I want to put you in a box.

Speaker 2 38:19

I want to put you, so everybody wants to know about it. And it took me a while to truly back. I was like, do I have a theme? You know, that's usually a little easier for people to handle. That goes across. And for me, accidentally and it took a while to realize it is my characters, regardless of the genre that I'm writing are only searching for family and I can tie it back to joining the military and leaving home and coming from a big family to now being by myself, even though I'm surrounded by people.

Speaker 2 38:47

So my characters are in the same place. You know, they're always finding for that place, that community, that home, that family, regardless of who they are. So some of them are blood family, some of them are families that they make, some of them are families they pick up. So that theme comes across strong in every single one of my stories, whether I like it or not.

Speaker 1 39:07

Right.

Speaker 2 39:08

Having a place to belong, beautiful. And a place that you call home, so I always tackle that in a very subconscious way. I have tons of quirky characters because I find myself to be. I had a hard time when somebody described my characters as quirky and one of my friends was like you are quirky. I was like.

Speaker 1 39:25

Is that an ouch? No, that's a plus. I demand, I insist on quirkiness and my friends so, yes, I wouldn't have it any other way welcome to my world.

Speaker 2 39:34

I'm quirky to the core, as I've been told, so it was one of those very much. You have quirky characters trying to find themselves in their place and their family beautiful, and how do they connect to the rest of the world?

Speaker 1 39:46

I'm so glad you said that because it's the perfect transition, meaning I do think that's universal right virginia, we could argue that we're all looking to be, long and again, the missing mother that always appears in mind. Always a missing mother, and you consciously. In this last one, it was symbolic of reconnecting with our divinity. The whole odyssey to find the missing mother and reconnect. She was a goddess and he didn't realize he was a demigod. But it's all symbolic of, you know, reconnecting with our core essence or source. And so, you know, I worked at Disney for a million years and people would, I would ask my students every term why do you suppose the character is usually orphaned right by one parent or the other? And they would say, oh, because then your heart goes out to them. It's like the dog that's been kicked too much, and I was. I never corrected them, but part of me was like I think it's more than that. I think it's we're all looking for daddy. We're all looking for our source, right it's. We're all looking for daddy. We're all looking for our source, right? We want to understand the creator or our origins, and so I just think, you know, it's really beautiful that these archetypes come off the pen. Whether we like it or not, they're kind of in us. Um, I don't know where I was. Oh, so the transition was this like if we're all looking to be long and you know that explains marginalized people engaging in identity politics it's really clear right now, right, how we're all looking to be long. I want to hear you.

Speaker 1 41:10

I don't know how much you dabble in the vampire genre, but as I was reading the excerpt that was provided to us and the synopsis, I started tapping into you. I grew up on Anne Rice and I've loved different franchises over the years, but I haven't really indulged it too much. So I was starting to think about what is the archetype of vampire and why does it touch every generation? Right, they all get theirs, but it never loses popularity. So, without telling you my thoughts on it, I'll give you a hint as an HIV positive member of the gay community. What you my thoughts on it? I'll give you a hint as an hiv positive member of the gay community. Um, what is your take on it? What drew you to the vampire genre? And forgive me if I'm wrong about that um, the latest one is a vampire focused story, right?

Speaker 2 41:57

the actual latest ones is werewolves. It's all about werewolves, but I do dabble in vampires, and to me there's something very much universal when it comes to the idea of you giving up your soul for immortality, that's kind of one of those biggest things.

Speaker 2 42:13

So I, my vampires, are not sparkly, I have to kind of put it out there. They're not meant to be sweet and innocent. They're not meant to, you know, seduce you, to get you to a higher glory. That's not what they do. One of my arcs for my vampires is that I have a stark cross lover between vampires and elves and what it means to meet a magical beings to help to find your humanity through love because, at the end of the day, my vampires are very much think.

Speaker 2 42:41

I think more like politicians. Everybody wants to rule the world and everybody wants to do it in their own way. So what would be the one thing that brings that back to me is always love. Humanity always brings it back Humanity, and that loving something bigger than you. To me, the vampire archetype is power without control. We always say absolute power, controls, absolutely. This is what I think of a vampire. They have everything and they have given up everything to get it. So when you're looking at it, you know, with my series is the interns, which happens to work for death. The horsemen of death have an actual war against vampires for the simple fact that you take humanity away, you take their soul, you take what makes humans human by transforming them. So they have a pact of like you don't convert, we don't kill you.

Speaker 2 43:32

This is how we coexist, but is that ultimate power, corrupting absolutely and taking the essence of who we are, which is you're sold?

Speaker 1 43:42

out. So the vampires are not redeemable, right? They've sold out their humanity.

Speaker 2 43:47

They're not, unless they're willing to go back for love. There is always that essence. I think redemption comes to all of us. I am still hopeless romantic. I think there's always redemption somewhere, but it might take more. It takes more to some than others, and if you're not willingly converting others to your side and letting them find their way, they at least will let you tolerate existence I was going to say.

Speaker 1 44:09

That's why I kind of steered at this direction. I did see a transition, because it is a family. The vampires find family and in a way it it seems like by just completely throwing in the towel on the rules, right, and it's kind of freeing. You know what I mean. They find their peeps, they find their family. But it's almost like you know, it's been said, you have to die to yourself to be reborn.

Speaker 1 44:36

So anyway, I'm not familiar enough with the genre. I grew up on Anne Rice, like I said, and I did write down a bunch. So maybe I'll list them and you can tell me if any of them are influences. And then I want to ask you what drew you to that sub-genre in the first place? But again, what I grew up on, and add to this list, you guys, if I'm missing something. But you know, of course, I grew up with the old, um, literally silent films. And then ann rice, I did read them. I read Interview with a Vampire at the time and enjoyed them.

Speaker 1 45:05

But then there's all the films which are usually based on literature, right, like Bram Stoker's Dracula, which was directed by Coppola, and then Buffy, the Vampire Slayer Sorry, I was busy in college and working at Disney. You know like I was all grown up and kind of busy so I missed out on that. But I've watched enough to kind of know the premise. And then Nosferatu just came out. There was True Blood. I've never watched a full episode of it. Loved Lost Boys, if you guys remember that. Loved that Twilight. I've seen every movie. I'm not that proud of it, but I've seen every movie. And then, out of morbid curiosity, I did start reading one of them and it was surprised me. I really enjoyed it. And then what else is there?

Speaker 2 45:44

so I am a little bit more of the og when it comes to urban fantasy and the world of the supernatural. I am a jim butcher fanatic, kim harrison that side of the world, when it comes to the books and the writing, just because I love the greedy needy that comes with urban fantasy, where you have the detectives and the searching and the blowing up, not so much the paranormal romance, which is what most people tend to confuse urban fantasy with. It is known for the action. It is known for the cutthroat and the madness behind it, not so much the romance tales. So I am now falling in love with a couple of British author kin once I love Mr Ben, who has the rivers of london when it comes to art and fantasy.

Speaker 2 46:27

But it's also the world underneath, is the fact that we have humanity. But what if there's something underneath those layers and what do they do while they're trying to behave and survive with us? It's kind of the world when we're looking at it. That's the part that I enjoy is enjoying the fact that what if vampires are real? What are they doing? How are they doing it? Who are they converting? How did you get along what's going on?

Speaker 2 46:50

yeah, I love questions.

Speaker 3 46:51

I love that you mentioned jim butcher. So I know jim butcher very well, um, not personally, but like his writing, um, I discovered him over a decade ago. Um, I think he's like up to like 17, 18 books now in that series it's. It's called the dresden's, dresden files, is what it's is. Is the series name nick, um, so what I love about it I don't know if you've seen any interviews with jim, but you actually know his sister, um, but he tends to come from a very existential theory where his character, harry Dresden, and actually most of his characters, are usually in that kind of category where they're trying to find the purpose in the face of uncertainty, so trying to make meaning out of where there isn't anything promised to them, which is what I love.

Speaker 3 47:39

And he ties in. So it makes sense just reading. You know what we, what we had of your work DC, because I know with, with the Dresden files, I mean it brings in the whole religious element. It brings in the Fae element. It brings in the. You know the, the, you know the occult. It brings in the mythology. It is so encompassing its world it's insane.

Speaker 2 48:12

It's probably one of the reasons that I tend to just fall in love with it, more than anything else people can imagine, because I find society being all of that. You know, one of the things that I tackle is you've got a touch of Christianity. You have the cat happens to be ancient Egypt. You've got the god of Nubis in there, you've got all the things that we make part of who we are, that tapestry that makes us so rich and so encompassing of the world. So when you're looking at urban fantasy, we get to pull from all of that. We get to pull from all these different layers and then just add a touch of social commentary in a very humorous way. So I might be talking to you about how we really treat homeless and you know the country, but you might not be sure what am?

Speaker 2 48:53

I talking about. So if you want to see the social commentary that most art and fantasy have, is there. If you just want an action-packed adventure, you can have that too, which is why the genre, to me, is so amazing, because you get to add those things into the works without being preaching, without putting it out there. It's just what it is we're talking about. Where are we at and how we're doing it. What you take out of it is always going to be after the reader which the most fun, and jim butcher does it so well. And you want to take harry and choke him to death.

Speaker 1 49:27

Get your life together you know this might have been a reviewer projecting this onto you, but I have written down. Charlene harris and terry pratchett are those influences.

Speaker 2 49:41

So Charlene Harris is the one who did the actual books for True Blood. Oh, okay.

Speaker 1 49:46

Yes.

Speaker 2 49:46

So I love the fact that she does Small Town like nobody else. She's the reason I picked Texarkana to do it, Because if we think of Small Town, what really happens in Small Town? Normally nothing.

Speaker 1 50:00

But she makes it. It's juxtaposition and right of the mundane and the supernatural.

Speaker 2 50:05

Yeah it's amazing and terry pratchett just takes you on this whirlwind adventures that you're going. Where are we at now? We got here and how do I get home and what happened to my characters so? It is absolutely some of the most fun that you can have in writing. I do enjoy other genres, like I don't mind dabbling and playing and everything else, but I always find myself, even as a reader, falling back as that as my comfort zone, because it's something to look at the world a little different than we have sometimes every day.

Speaker 1 50:36

You know, I've been re-watching Stranger Things, just in prep for the right. Finally, I guess the new season's coming out and it's kind of scaring me that my brain couldn't remember. You know, those kids grew up before our very eyes and I'm scared. I'm going to actually read the synopses of each season, just you know what I mean. I can't watch the whole thing again, anyway.

Speaker 1 50:56

But am I wrong for thinking of? You know, it's that small town thing where you juxtapose the mundane with the kind of profound or supernatural, but also the nostalgia factor. So I just want to say, like I'm the guy, yeah, who accidentally writes and I have to be told what genre I just wrote in, right, and the name was French. They had to go. Oh no, that's young adult urban fantasy. I'm like okay, didn't know that existed. But of course I grew up on CS Lewis and you know the Narnia Chronicles and JRR Tolkien. So I have that in me.

Speaker 1 51:30

But I just try to honor the inspiration, tell a good story and whatever genre it lands in, and I kind of only write marketing challenges. So I had to really think about this, like why am I not the kid who went out and indulged a given anything over and over and over again, whether it's a genre of music, right, a sub-genre of literature. I really just didn't have the money, you know I mean to buy the albums or to buy the books, but it's also something in my personality that I have yet to figure out. So for you, and maybe I'll have you read a synopsis of I keep forgetting the fur, what is it called? Cursed?

Speaker 2 52:03

by fur.

Speaker 1 52:04

What is it? Cursed by fur? Yes, so I would love to have you read a synopsis, but I just want to beat this horse a little bit. You know, I do think like Stranger Things is my example. It's not vampires, but it speaks to what you hinted at a moment ago, where it's not just family. You bond through trauma, or you bond through disenfranchisement or marginalization, but it's that kind of dark, invisible underworld that's always at play, whether the average person on the street is aware of it or not. Is Stranger Things something you relate to at all?

Speaker 2 52:36

One of the things about it that drives people insane. I don't do horror. I know I have tons of horror elements. That's not. I'm too much of a dark comedy kind of person. So while my friends adore there's a level of horror and suspense and I'm like, oh yeah, that's just gonna give me nightmares. So I tend to not be completely into it. I can do a couple episodes and then be like, okay, that's enough.

Speaker 1 53:02

You know I would call it the tone. The tone has a dread, you know, like Lovecraft, that kind of dread that just lingers. But anyway, I love it for the nostalgia. I'm an 80s kid so I love it for the soundtrack and I guess that's what I was hinting at. Some people have lofty ideas about, you know, finding their voice and contributing it to humanity. I think it's enough if a filmmaker just loved steven spielberg growing up and then this kind of gave up this morning, you know, like et or star wars, or raiders, the lost ark, and they just want to be part of that tradition without examining it. To me there's a nostalgia element.

Speaker 1 53:36

When you write in a given genre, you do know what your fans are expecting, right, and which tropes you want to embrace and which you want to defy or maybe put a spin on. Uh, for you, what is so attractive? And I know you do write in many genres, but writing in the werewolf genre because I loved american world war from london a little. To a lesser degree I liked the paris one, but the first one rocked my world anyway. What drew you to that in the first place? And where do you draw the line between delivering what's expected? Do you know what I mean? What are the traditions within that genre? Versus where can I forge new territory?

Speaker 2 54:12

I'm always very aware of what my readers expect. I think as a genre writer, you have to know what the tropes are in order to make those connections. It's reason why I don't do romance just because I don't read it enough to comprehend it. Instant love might not be my thing. I believe in instant lust. Love might be a little bit more touchy, so I tend to be much more cautious.

Cursed by Fur and Red Riding Hood

Speaker 2 54:35

I want my readers to know that not only do I love who they are, but I respect what they love so when I dabble into a genre, I tend to make sure that is something that I can completely give myself a hundred percent to the world war. You know the bad supernatural element I want them to know there's that power and shifting from human to animal, that they still have that incredible focus. So cursed by fur is a little different. It is a spicy retelling of little red riding hood, and she's not the good one. You know. I have question marks about this fairy tale for a very long time. It's like why is this little girl hanging out with the wolves? What are you doing? What do you mean?

Speaker 1 55:12

you won does that make her a faulted protagonist or an anti-hero? I hate to put words on it, but yeah she's a little sh.

Speaker 2 55:22

We're just going to put it at that. It's a little shatter story of she's. Actually you can call her an assassin or you can call her a serial killer. To me it tends to be kind of the same thing, she has it against rebels and she's under a lot of trouble.

Speaker 1 55:35

Maybe the best assassins probably are serial killers by nature.

Speaker 2 55:38

If you think about it. I don't know how we have not put the two and two together. I was like you have some issues. Counseling could help.

Speaker 1 55:45

No, the title. The title just gives it credibility, that's all.

Speaker 2 55:49

It kind of gives you one of like oh so who's really cursed? Are they or is she? And who has the issues?

Speaker 1 55:57

So it's like almost what do they call it Moral relativism?

Speaker 2 56:01

for the reader it makes you question who is right and who's wrong, and I think this is one of those stories that there's not really any really good guys. You know, you have my team trying to solve this story. It takes place in Texarkana, so I'm taking you back to my Reaper's universe and it's five years after the ending of Judgment Day and the town is a haven. The biblical Judgment Day.

Speaker 1 56:22

And the town is a haven. The biblical Judgment Day.

Speaker 2 56:24

Oh God, no, it's just my book.

Speaker 1 56:26

What does that mean? The Judgment Day.

Speaker 2 56:28

So Judgment Day is book five in the intern diary.

Speaker 1 56:31

Oh, I'm sorry Okay.

Speaker 2 56:32

No, you're good. By the way, judgment Day came out in the same month as COVID, so promoting the book called Judgment Day. Wow, a book called judgment day when the flag is coming. Wow yeah, oh yeah, it's come to roost. Yeah, it was a great story. Now, not that day. I was like, oh god, anytime I tell people judgment day's coming. They're looking like what do you know? It's like it's just a book. I swear.

Speaker 1 56:53

You had your finger on. You had your finger on the pulse there it's a very painful pulse I I have a question.

Speaker 3 57:00

I want to go back because what you're saying about little red riding hood which I I've never seen her either. I've always questioned, really, her motives and um she's a mess yeah, in every version of that fairy tale that I've read.

Speaker 3 57:14

So, um, I come from a counseling background and one of one of the theoretical orientations is narrative therapy, which I love because hello writing. But so it's often said that people are not their problems under that mindset in narrative therapy, that the problems live within the stories that we tell ourselves and that the people, of course, are the authors. And so, with that framing in mind, I'm just because you're talking about a little bit writing and stuff I mean, obviously you know your narrative therapy you're trying to like reframe, to give power back to someone who may feel stuck. But I get a sense, with kind of how you're talking about her and just the way you write, that there's that same kind of belief when it comes to your characters, even though they're messy and sure broken. So how do you walk that line between honoring that struggle and empowering your character to evolve?

Speaker 2 58:09

Yeah, One of the hardest parts of this book because it comes from three different points of view is giving my little Red Riding Hood point of view some credibility in terms of why she's doing the things that she does. I think everybody's a hero in their own eyes and she in her mind is trying to protect somebody very, very dear to her and she will do whatever it takes to protect this person. And it makes you kind of question saying, really, is killing as far as you're willing to go? And she's not thinking about it. So it is letting that, having their own objects and desires, having their own path to follow and truly being honest to where they're finding themselves, that there is nothing they wouldn't do for the people they love.

Speaker 2 58:51

And sometimes that love becomes an obsession. It becomes so dangerous that everybody else in that society is paying for. One of the hardest thing in this book is has a huge twist at the end is everybody's like, oh my god, I can't believe that's how it ended. I'm very much into justice. You know, at some point in time you can't have a serial killer, assassin running loose and be like, oh, we're just gonna give you a patent back.

Speaker 1 59:15

That's not quite what society, whatever your urban fantasy world puts it well, if you're french, you leave all kinds of loose ends and, right and uh, all kinds of bittersweet, melancholy endings. Um, virginia, did you hear in that? Maybe I just am projecting on it, but I heard a little bit. If you remember tonga, her premise was love is the force behind perseverance. That's actually what I ended up naming the episode love as the force behind perseverance. I mean, it's too cliche to say love conquers all. But is that? Were you hinting at that at all? Um, you said that love was behind it.

Speaker 2 59:53

All right this is definitely one of those very much love story that went bad, if that makes any sense for anybody.

Speaker 2 1:00:00

It is protection and loving and what. That hard version of that love is got very corrupted and people are now dying. So you asked, you know, for the synopsis of it. When I think about it is you know this is the book where, at the end of the day, this intern is trying to figure out this killer running loose in town and she's just trying to protect the people she loves. So you're looking at a crash of. You know who's going to win, who's the will that's going to keep things going. You know our intern Bob wants to keep this underground culture protected and away from the human eyes, and the more she continues to play in his playground to put it that way it brings body counts falling. The messier it gets, the more people are going to notice, the more chaos is happening in the small town of texas you know who this kind of reminds me of?

Speaker 3 1:00:51

um dominic. Well, the show that reminds me of is the show you with the main character, joe, because everybody he's obviously a sociopathic, you know killer, but he does it because he's trying to protect those that he loves right.

Speaker 1 1:01:05

Well, that's what I meant by moral ambiguity and the anti-hero character, by the way that's become so popular, it's not just a faulted protagonist. You've always needed an arc and you can't have a character arc unless they're extremely faulted and relatable, right, but they're pushing the boundaries of what's relatable, right. So we said dexter kind of started that can I really just can we sustain the relatability and make an audience invest in the want and need of that protagonist, if they also happen to be right, a serial killer? But it's for the good cause, for a good cause, and so I think we're really exploring that right now, especially in streaming.

Speaker 1 1:01:40

Right, they've all done horrific things and the dramatic tension from week to week that keeps you coming back is, wow, can they pull this off? Can they hide or are they going to get busted? But anyway, the moral dilemma I relate to a lot. But also I heard in there somewhere again that love is a double-edged sword and I do think it's interesting that love. You know people murder their spouses all the time, like how can it go so wrong? So did you hint at that?

Speaker 2 1:02:08

when love becomes obsessive, then it's a little bit dangerous oh You're absolutely going to get that feel of what she's willing to do for love and kind of the concept of the consequences of everybody else having to pay for it. It is one of those tragic stories that it doesn't end in a happy ending which I always have to kind of warn my readers. They're all like I cried. One of my favorite readers goes like I feel like I'm having PTSD with this book, like it's a rollercoaster of emotions and I'm like my bad.

Speaker 2 1:02:40

I think I'm sorry, maybe not. You know I'm. My goal is always to give you something that is engaging. It's always going to give you something that is going to absolutely tear you and take you through this path. It is packed with characters. You don't have to read the series to get connected. If you want to, you can, but it's definitely going to keep you turning and I have enough readers very much kind of they had to be cracking up because they're like I did not expect the ending. Oh my god, what am I supposed to do? And I was like breathe, it's only a book.

Speaker 1 1:03:11

Okay, I promise well, I, I am the guy who will say if you're haunted by it, the author's job is done. And sometimes it's provocative for a reason, because you come to conclusions in your own mind. Anyway, is cautionary tale appropriate because of these dark edges or unresolved feelings you leave the reader with? Is it a cautionary tale?

Speaker 2 1:03:32

I will always say I'm not responsible for any emotional damage that could happen at the end of this book. But if you enjoyed it and happen to be traumatized, then mission accomplishes.

Speaker 1 1:03:41

No, I'm just I'm being clinical here, but you know it's said it's said that, like um, you know, the difference between a shakespearean comedy and a tragedy is not just the body count, right, but it's like if the the want and need is met of the protagonist, then there's a redemptive outcome. If neither the want nor the need are met, that's a tragedy. So often those tragedies become cautionary tales. Anyway, I'm just trying to project templates on it and maybe it defies all the templates, I don't know. Anyway, is there any more to that synopsis that you'd like to share with listeners? Keep in more to that um synopsis that you'd like to share with listeners with you know, keep in mind, we'll put the links in the episode description because I want to. As you know, I look at the clock and slowly want to steer it to a close. I have other stuff I want to bring up. So, did we get through the synopsis? Is there anything more you'd want to share?

Speaker 2 1:04:29

I'm going to leave it that way and let them decide if they want to go dabble into my work. This one is very, very fun. It is definitely one of those action-packed stories that's going to make you go, okay. So, while the body count keeps going up, death interns are on a mission to bring some kind of closure into this world, which is interesting, because you never think of death people as the one trying to keep humanity alive, but somebody has to do it right.

Speaker 1 1:04:54

And just reading the blurb that mickey provided us, I was yeah. It took me a while to wrap my brain around it, you know, and even that moral relativism came up for me. I'm like wait, who are the good guys here and who are the bad guys?

Speaker 2 1:05:05

that's actually one of my favorite part is to make people question that, because sometimes we're so focused on the good and the bad. When I look on my horsemen, above all else, the only one that cares for humanity is death, and it was like that's interesting to think about. It's like, but what if death's job is to truly take care of your soul after your passing?

Speaker 1 1:05:25

what are the other?

Speaker 2 1:05:25

ones doing? Why are they always trying to kill us? So you get to have your own interpretation for being very much aware that the only one who's truly going to care for your afterlife, is the one that we tend to be much more terrified of interesting, well, and that is, you know, hades, the archetype of hades.

Speaker 1 1:05:41

It's a very nurturing place, you know, and um, we tend to demonize it in western judeo-christian culture, right, but embracing goes back to embracing the shadow. I think artists dwell in that dark space where the roots grow deeper and everything is germinating. We're more comfortable with it than most, but I like that, maybe as an outcome, you may not be in touch with it, but maybe it's empowering readers to, yeah, kind of examine those instincts within themselves. Why do I shun the shadow? And is this tragic, or isn't it?

Speaker 3 1:06:13

well, I was gonna say there's a question for me and they're like you know, how much agency do you truly have? You know what? You know what do we have control versus what don't we have control? So, you know, I kind of think of it like that balance between you know that that whole fate and free will, and it seems like you know that same battle.

Purpose, Meditation, and Creative Fulfillment

Speaker 2 1:06:33

When we read characters within this type of a genre, it really mirrors life in that same kind of concept it gives everybody an opportunity to truly look at themselves and ask what choices would I have made if I was in your shoes? What would I have done? And I think one of the hardest part that, as the writer for me, I had a very clear cut that my assassin was not going to have a happy ending. That's just. I just couldn't do it in my own sense of morality. Everybody else wants to justify it. I was like I think you should question why you justified it and they'll look at me like oh wow, I never thought about it. I was like what is your role in how you interpret it and what are you willing to validate?

Speaker 1 1:07:15

And are we truly?

Speaker 2 1:07:15

willing to validate the means because the end might be okay. So I think we all have those things that we can question without going too deep down those rabbit holes sometimes I love that.

Speaker 1 1:07:27

It's interactive. Maybe great literature does leave unanswered questions and it becomes interactive. That's how we transform and I guess this is a somewhat awkward transition. But, um, I know you've said in the past that you want to empower or, sorry, you want to encourage people to embrace empowering narratives, and that's similar to the narrative therapy virginia um spoke of a moment ago, and I know you're, I believe you're a meditation instructor, so I'm seeing a little bit. You know you're, I believe you're a meditation instructor, so I'm seeing a little bit. You know you said you don't love writing horror because of the dark edges, and there's therefore a comedic sort of satirical slant, you know, when it comes to current events. But how did your writing practice if it was a linear transition? How did you enter the space of wellness and meditation? And I don't know, I guess. Tell me a little bit about the empowering narratives that you wish to impart and how do these conversations we're having about, you know, letting the reader resolve the inner conflict themselves? How does that play into the empowerment of the narrative?

Speaker 2 1:08:34

One of the biggest things that I found myself holding me back was those narratives that I have with myself. It is those self-limiting beliefs, it is all of those conversations and those voices in our head. I know some people said I don't have any voices. I'm like, oh bless you, you are amazing. Let's keep it that way all.

Speaker 1 1:08:52

every day we have a narrator.

Speaker 2 1:08:54

Sorry, Thank you, thank you, they're just not aware of it.

Speaker 1 1:08:57

I mean Eckhart Tolle. We identify right with mind and ego to the degree we don't hear the voice as long as you don't answer back. That's the trick.

Speaker 2 1:09:05

I think authors write answer back. We just put it on the page.

Speaker 1 1:09:08

At least we're presenting it, just don't tell anybody.

Speaker 2 1:09:10

But yes, it is those voices, it is the thoughts that we tend to play on a record. So if you guys remember, back to the records when they skip it's the same kind of tick, tick, tick.

Speaker 2 1:09:18

That's kind of those thoughts. I found myself very much stuck there and those are the thoughts that were holding me back. It is the thoughts that make you go. Do I promote this book? No, do I not? What are people going to think about this? So one of the things as a creative I found myself, especially when I talked about a creative that they hold themselves back, not because they're not talented, not because they're not full of ideas and energy, is because they're full of doubts. They're full of all of these questions. One of the things that helped me to break through was meditation and like I'm like I can't tell you I'm an extremist like.

Speaker 2 1:09:51

So. Once I learned something, I'm going to teach it to everybody, because I'm like, oh my god, you need some of this in your life. Because I was there. I had to learn to let those thoughts come and go and play and not hold on to it, and meditation did that for me. It was the one thing. It was like clicking on a remote and watching the channels go and knowing that they're there, but I didn't have to sit in front of it and entertaining. So when I try to do a lot of coaching with my authors and my artists is teaching them the fact that not only are you creating, but you're living. A creative doesn't just separate as well. So this is who we are all the time and is becoming those pieces, and sometimes meditation can be the answer. Sometimes it's running. It can be anything that's it's running. It can be anything that's going to help you to break through these thoughts that are holding you stuck and that, to me, is very powerful yeah, quieting the mental chatter, right is.

Speaker 1 1:10:47

I'm hearing some interesting connections, though, like I would say, meditation is the way you know you talk to Deepak Chopra. The answer is always meditate. It's always meditate. And I actually just quick story I had a friend say, you know, write a letter. I was struggling with the health care system and my own agency and my own health and my friend who worked for the Dalai Lama, so just put it all in writing and, uh, we can help, whether it's a medical resource here or there. So I laid it all out and the answer was one word meditate.

Speaker 1 1:11:20

So there is the school of thought, and I won't start citing people, but many people would say mantras are great, affirmations are great, but sometimes it's like pushing a wet noodle up a hill. If those warbly records you're talking about are neural circuits, if you want to call them, that are so well ingrained, right. So meditation, from my understanding, just quiets the mental chatter and I would call it gamma wave state, right to where you can create new neural circuits, right. And so I think artists have a gift in that we quiet the mental chatter when we engage in the creative process. Ideally, right, we have that church and so I love that you encourage your writers, because it's also said that all true inspiration comes from solitude, that's from letters to a young poet. So if you still the mind, that's actually where the inspiration lies. So I think all artists and writers, all creatives, probably need to hear the call, and if there's too much noise to hear the inspiration, what is there to write about?

Speaker 2 1:12:24

absolutely. I think elizabeth gilbert puts a really book well in her book.

Speaker 2 1:12:28

Big magic is yes her thing is if you're not writing, the drama is going to be in your life and sometimes oh yes, my favorite quote I can tell when my life is a little out of whack because I'm not writing. I was like, oh, maybe I should be writing more, because I'm obviously creating extra hell for myself. I didn't need to be there. But it's being able to be comfortable with the messiness, but also understanding that it doesn't have to be that way, that your life doesn't have to happen. You can have these thoughts and be able to move past them and transcend them, and meditation does an amazing job at it. We also have to understand that some of the work that we have to do is not going to be easy. It's not going to be pretty, but we still can do it and be able to be healthy about it yeah, beautiful.

Speaker 1 1:13:16

Yeah, and you mentioned you. You hit a wall. You know I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you know we're you didn't have a creative outlet, or you, I don't know. I think we're all creative, we all have the creative drive and sometimes if we languish, we will languish if we don't have an outlet for it. And so, anyway, you, I can not bring words in your mouth, but maybe you can refresh us on what you said. You just had everything you wanted in life and yet you weren't satisfied. Is that a fair way of putting it? Or yet you still had some?

Speaker 2 1:13:45

That is actually a very much fair way of putting it. It is not living a true purpose and I think that's where meditation comes into place, understanding that we all have a calling, whatever the calling might be. The moment that we repress that, because I think we all try to be adults, adulting, is overrated.

Speaker 1 1:14:03

It's all crazy.

Speaker 2 1:14:11

But the moment that I focus so much on trying to be that adult and doing all the right things and what you're supposed to be doing and instead of in a world that brings art and brings beauty to everybody else, I was very much living a half-life. You know, it's kind of like those ideas of you're present but not really and something feels like it's missing.

Speaker 2 1:14:26

Somebody asked me why do I write, and it sounds extremely much over the top, but there's a hole in my soul when I'm not writing there's a hole that is not filled, because those things that should be coming out are not, and I'm repressing them to try to fit into the concept of what society thinks and it all should be. Why can I be all? Why can I create? Why can I just be happy and have a job and do the things and still be my true, authentic self? And until we come to terms with that, you will feel like you're chasing the rat race and you're chasing other people's dreams and you're doing all the things and never feeling fulfilled. I can tell you, the happiest I am is when I'm writing, even if nobody ever gets to see the stories, because I will talk to every single person I know and it's like let me tell you what I'm writing about and my family's like oh God, oh God, go away. My family's very happy that I published so I can talk to other people besides them about these books.

Speaker 1 1:15:21

You're very inspirational. Again, I watched a couple other interviews and I think that's really beautiful. I will say again, we're all creative but I think the real universal is true contentment, satisfaction, well-being, inner peace, call it what you want, everything that every spiritual practice right tries to accomplish Limiting the suffering in life, creating inner peace. That is always resolved when we find our purpose. We're very purpose-driven right and I call it finding your voice, then contributing it back to the collective according to your gifts. That's universal. It doesn't mean you need to send a rocket into space, right, or invent a wheel or write a novel, but we are creative by nature. So I just want to give a couple shout outs.

Speaker 1 1:16:05

You know I mentioned and kind of bring things full circle, I mentioned my sister's TED Talk. It was about the very same dilemma where she hit a wall, had, you know, the white picket fence, four kids, a husband, great relationship, and yet she was languishing to the point where she cried for a year in her closet, according to her ted talk. You know that's how powerful it is. And I do think you know men um are shamed if they're not the breadwinner and they have any instincts, creative instincts at all. That's their battle because of how we're socialized. Well, women, there's a reason women aren't written into the art history books. For God's sake, you're supposed to be all things to all people and serve everybody, but your own selfish creative drives right. So the shout out I want to give there is there's a really great documentary called who Does she Think she Is. Have you guys heard of that? I?

Speaker 2 1:16:54

have not that sounds amazing called. Who does she think she is? Have you guys heard of?

Speaker 1 1:16:55

that I have not. That's amazing. Yeah, you need to watch it because it's about everything we're talking about. How do you silence those voices of doubt that don't just inhibit your creative expression, but they might be keeping you from your true calling anyway, I'm just following up on what you said. I relate a hundred percent and you and my sister should talk for sure.

Speaker 2 1:17:14

Absolutely I need to. She's amazing.

Speaker 1 1:17:17

If you ever go to our Buzzsprout, Renee Urbanovich. She's come on twice and maybe even in this episode, because we referenced it, I'll put a link to her TED Talk, Not to steal your thunder, but I think these are all great conversations.

Speaker 2 1:17:30

Awesome, absolutely.

Speaker 1 1:17:32

Yeah, you've both been through a similar arc, I think. But isn't it? It's pretty universal, not to minimize it, I think I don't know. We all eventually hit a wall if we're not contributing or purpose. Your purpose could be right there in your grassroots circle in your town, right? Or your children. Sometimes that's enough until you have emptiness syndrome, and sometimes that's enough until you have emptiness syndrome right. Then you're like, oh shit, my kids don't need me anymore. What am I? You know the crone stage, they call it. I can provide wisdom, but I don't know. I think we still shame anything. That seems like a selfish pursuit. But just preaching here we all need to be, yes, engaging in the, the creative process, self-expressing all the time, telling our story in the spirit of our podcast you did mention that is.

Speaker 2 1:18:21

It's not minimizing it, I think is making unifying one of the things that I think people have to realize is that we all have these feelings. As a creative, I thought I was the only one going through this. I was the only one suffering because I wasn't doing my purpose.

Speaker 2 1:18:35

So anytime you mention other people going through it, it validates that this experience are normal. It validates that we're not losing our mind, but also it validates and gives us comfort that you are allowed to embark on these journeys, that other people might not be feeling it and give other people courage. So I love the fact that this is something that is more common than people think yeah because there's more hope up there than we give them credit.

Speaker 2 1:18:58

If not, you feel like you're on an island about yourself, stumbling, trying to figure out how do I get out and how I find myself again yeah, and that's the value of these conversations.

Speaker 1 1:19:07

But specifically you're, from what I know, you're inspiring people because I think sometimes we don't realize which voices are in the background. You know again, I've dealt with a lot of students that it might not click. I've seen explosions of creativity once they overcame this hurdle or that hurdle. But sometimes until you engage in these conversations with somebody really inspirational like you, the voice is not at the forefront. If that makes sense, you know, you don't realize. Oh, I am afraid of the outcome falling short of my own expectations. Or, yes, I was socialized as a you know, red-blooded American male and anything that's not directly putting roofs overhead at heads or food on the table is seen as superfluous. You know, sometimes these conversations help people identify the stumbling blocks. Am I speaking in platitudes or does that make sense?

Speaker 2 1:19:58

no, it absolutely makes sense and it brings it all into perspective, because we all need each other. We are not here just wandering by ourselves, but we all built upon what our experiences are and tell everybody. I'm here because I'm standing in the shoulders of others.

Speaker 1 1:20:13

And during the pandemic that word essential came up a lot. Remember that. And so I did the online show. I did an online presentation that I was asked to do and that became the book that became this podcast. But yeah, I said you know what we all need to remind each other, why we do what we do. You know and that there's importance to it.

Speaker 2 1:20:36

Most of the times, I think we forget that there is importance for everything we do and every single person plays a role, regardless how small their role is. We are all part of this collective narrative that needs a voice, and sometimes just writing a story that's going to connect with somebody who needs you, it's just as powerful as writing the next greatest you know film, film or story. You all need those pieces.

Speaker 1 1:20:57

Beautiful. Yeah, it takes a village. Yeah, and sometimes on the podcast, own voices come up right. So we have yes, it takes a village. We've told certain stories, patriarchal stories, over and over again, but I think we're on the path toward telling the untold stories and the silenced and the erased stories, and those truly complete the tapestry. I'm going to shut up because I'm speaking in cliches now.

Speaker 3 1:21:21

Well, as I say it also is. You know, we're talking about how we're exploring freely that creative side, versus seeking approval for the creativity that we share.

Speaker 3 1:21:32

So I think that's important too, because I think that's where sometimes people feel stifled, who are creatives, because now they're I don't want to say attention seeking, but they are looking for the approval of what they're doing is good, and I think when we have inspirational voices on here that talk about other things, they realize, oh, I don't need everybody's approval, I just need to know that I'm part of a collective, that I'm not just in like this. You know, small little echo chamber and no one's hearing me, that I am reaching out and I am feeling. You know now, heard, valued. You know, beyond the socialization of which we've all grown up under, Yep, yeah, I will say, in teaching I've, I've had.

Speaker 1 1:22:17

I almost did a documentary on it, but I did think. You know, I was a shy kid, the youngest of four siblings, the youngest of 10 cousins. I was terrorized, let's be frank, and so I didn't have a voice when I started drawing. It was my connection. Oh my God, I got a reaction. I exist. It's called validation. I got, and it was like icing on the cake if they were impressed or moved or touched right, and so that was my lifeline.

Speaker 1 1:22:44

Then later we all you know, develop healthy ways of expressing ourselves, hopefully healthy relationships, but you still have this craft that you've developed a relationship with. Anyway, I just had this hunch and so I started interviewing my students and professional artists at the brewery and all these downtown kind of live work spaces. And it was true, we all had that to a degree. We're not all introverted, but many are and they don't have a vehicle of expression. But I do think, like you were hinting at Virginia, we move beyond the validation aspect of it and I think that's what we were calling finding one's voice, but also finding realizing, and it sometimes takes well into your 30s to go. Okay, it wasn't just attention seeking. What have I been trying to do with all of my creative efforts? And that's when I think we really step into the purpose idea.

Speaker 3 1:23:33

And the meaning making.

Speaker 2 1:23:34

Might be into our 40s. Let's be honest it's true.

Speaker 1 1:23:39

But you, there is a come to jesus moment or not? Some people, it's just the love of a craft or it's something to do that keeps them out of trouble. I think it's all amen to all of it. But those who do have something to say in the world, yes, it can take a while to click, but I don't know. We do get some attention seekers, seekers on here and it might not run that deep for them, but I do think, eventually, those that you know for whom it is a calling or a ministry. It takes a while to identify it, but you do need the voices you know that encourage you that, yeah, you're not crazy, as you said, and you belong to a, a collective. I personally love when I feel connected to any of my you know what I mean like ancient, any of my dead poets.

Speaker 2 1:24:22

I love it we all come part of this family. It's usually takes for us to identify as a family member, because I think it's not enough other people to say, yes, you can come and be part of this narrative. Sometimes we have to give us ourselves permission to be part of this narrative. Sometimes we have to give ourselves permission to be part of it and embrace it. That's usually the part when everybody talks about the imposter syndrome.

Speaker 2 1:24:42

Sometimes, it's us having to shut that syndrome down and be like okay enough. One of my best example that I give to everybody is I have a young I'm the oldest of three. So, you being the youngest, I'm the oldest of three. So you being the youngest, I'm like oh, my heart goes to you. That's a lot of pain. As the oldest, I was like oh, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 1:24:59

That's funny. You're the oldest of how many?

Speaker 2 1:25:01

Three. So my baby brother is probably one of the most wise people I know, but he has that calm, cool and collective mannerism. When I first started out, I decided to participate in the texas library association conference and it's huge in texas. You've got over 10 000 librarians showing up and some of the biggest publishers and here I am, signed up for this conference don't know much about it. I think I had maybe three or four books.

Speaker 2 1:25:25

I walked in and it's in austin. So I'm walking in, drove six hours to get there, have all my books, getting ready to set up. I find my booth and I looked over and scholastics is right across the hall from me and they have the banners hanging from the ceilings and the books and everything else. And I broke down and I cry and the first person I called is my brother, because he's the one walking with his path for me and his wife when I started and I'm calling and I'm crying, he's like, oh, you made it. And I'm crying. He's like like, oh, you made it. And I'm crying. He's like, oh, my God, what happened? Are you okay? What do we need? And I'm like I'm here and I'm in this event and all these people are huge and I'm this tiny little fish and I'm falling and he's like but you're in the pond.

Speaker 2 1:26:08

And I was like and it was such an epiphany moment because you need somebody to love you, but you also need somebody to bring some reality check. It was very much. I'm comparing myself to something that has been established for years. You know, scholastic was part of my childhood books when I thought about it.

Speaker 2 1:26:24

But it became very much to take away the pain and comparison and realizing that I'm now part of this and it doesn't matter the size and it doesn't matter the impact when I'm looking across, but knowing that I'm here and that I can hold my space, that I can be part of this. I had an opportunity to meet amazing librarians and be able to share my books across texas in this one event, and then I was extremely humble and proud to realize that I'm like oh wow, I'm here, like that alone is huge absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1 1:26:56

Yeah, it's not about being a big fish in a big pond or any of that. It's just like I'm engaging in the conversation and the dialectic and yeah, that's very affirming, isn't it? And then little experiences like that propel you to the next or you parlay it to the next, but yeah, it's validating Good company there.

The Million Book Giveaway Project

Speaker 2 1:27:16

You need somebody with wisdom who's not there crying with you to kind of help you across the bridge, because I was definitely falling apart if he was just like honey honey are you. Okay, are you alive?

Speaker 1 1:27:26

let it go right, yeah, no, you're in good company and uh, instead of being intimidated, just yeah, the synergy factor yes, anyway. Well, I'm so glad that you propelled it and you became an award-winning author. How does that feel to have that validation?

Speaker 2 1:27:42

it still feels very unreal. I don't know how anybody can. I'm very humble and I'm very overwhelmed and I love all the readers. I love these stories and anytime the books win an award, I'm like, oh, you did connect, you did put it all together. So to this day, every single time it happens, I'm extremely grateful because it still feels like a dream which I don't want that feeling ever to go away.

Speaker 1 1:28:07

Sometimes we don't take the time to enjoy the moment. You know I like that.

Speaker 2 1:28:11

I want this dream to continue, that I can still put these words on page and that I can still share them with the world, and that people can fall in love with them. Like I'm going to give you an award, I'm like well, keep it up.

Speaker 1 1:28:24

Yeah, your readers are counting on you. Is there anything, cause I think we are steering to a close. Anything you final words you would want to impart to listeners?

Speaker 2 1:28:34

So I have a special project if you guys don't mind me sharing with you guys.

Speaker 1 1:28:38

Yeah, that is one of the rote questions what's next for you?

Speaker 2 1:28:41

Okay, so awesome, perfect timing. So one of the things I am doing this year we talked a lot about our narrative and our conversation, and what do we add to this collective society that we're living in? And we're living in times of chaos. We're living in times of just turmoils and everybody trying to separate each other and trying to forget that we're a collective world of people, not individuals fighting each other, and, as an author, that was the hardest thing for me to be. What do I add to this narrative, what do I add to this conversations and how can I be a part of that? Actually helps the solution. One of the things that I hit home for me is the feeling of being helpless and not being to contribute to something positive To me.

Speaker 2 1:29:22

This year and started in April. It's going to go all the way to next April is I want to add joy to the narrative, I want to add some love and I want to add some power, and the way that I can do this better than anybody else for me in terms of my power is I'm going to give away a million books. I'm going to give a million eBooks of this intern to anybody who wants it. This is my purpose for this year is to truly share those words, is to give you the people and the family that saved me from my own darkness. I want to give you some of that.

Speaker 2 1:29:52

I want to give you something that, as an author, only we can give, which is words and power and joy. So this is my passion for this year is to honestly be part of the narrative by picking joy, by picking love, by giving people an outlet that only authors can do and this is kind of the part. So anybody who's interested, you can pick up a copy of Desk Intern on any of your favorite distributors. If Amazon is not free in your country, go get Apple, go get Google, go get Google, so you can have. You know, if I can give you a couple hours just to forget that things can be difficult and connect to a different family, then this is my mission for this year.

Speaker 1 1:30:33

Beautiful. Thank you Seriously. Family, then this is my math, this is my mission for this year. Beautiful, I thank you seriously. I I have two types of friends the ones that send me every new executive order that's being passed every four. Really, I don't want to see his face anymore. But my one friend sends me every turn of events and I'm like I know, I know. And then my other friend sends only otters and puppies, not puppies, otters, sloths, meerkats, and yeah, we're keeping each other alive. So joy, joy, joy. How do I might've missed it? How so? They can go to any distributor and it's free.

Speaker 2 1:31:11

So the easiest way so you can get it all in one location, so I have a universal link is bookstoreadcom. Backslash deaths distributor and it's free. So the easiest way so you can get it all in one location, so I have a universal link is books to readcom backslash deaths. I'm a little dash in terms so you can get it all in that one site so you can click on it and find your favorite place to find your books and get it for free. So that's been our mission to truly say what do I add to this narrative? That makes sense to me and I can just give you some joy.

Speaker 1 1:31:39

Thank you, and so I trust the link will be in the episode description, virginia. Is that one of the links?

Speaker 3 1:31:45

Okay, yeah.

Speaker 1 1:31:46

Awesome. Well, thank you so much. We're truly lucky to have you.

Speaker 2 1:31:49

It has been truly a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me truly a pleasure.

Speaker 1 1:31:56

Thank you so much for having me Awesome. Take care. Thanks, virginia, and to our listeners, remember life is story and we can get our hands in the clay, individually and collectively. We can write a new story. See you next time.