Mythic Fiction novel 'The Seeker,' with Author Dominick Domingo

"The wrath of the gods was but a series of tests that Amitayus might prove his heroism and secure his place in Elysium. The thing is, he's not sure that's where he wants to end up."

Step into the mythic world of "The Seeker" as author Dominick Domingo joins us to explore the profound journey behind his latest novel, which is now an Audible audiobook. 'The Seeker' blends inspirational Visionary Fiction with Mythic Fiction in this epic reimagining of the tale of Icarus. In his plunge from glory, rather than perishing in the waters of the Aegean, Icarus is rescued by a passing mariner, fictional demigod Amitayus, who is unaware of his own divinity. The two embark on an epic odyssey, braving impediments only Zeus himself could whip up, as Amitayus seeks the truth that will earn him a place in Elysium. Set in Bronze Age Minoan culture and told through the lens of Greek Classicism, The Seeker puts a modern spin on classic archetypes that lend it unmatched spiritual resonance.

The Seeker represents Dominick’s foray into Mythic Visionary Fiction. It is a universal parable about Transformation that speaks to the journey we all share. 

www.dominickdomingo.com

To order ‘The Seeker’ audiobook on AUDIBLE

'The Seeker' print version and EBook on Amazon HERE 

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Transcript

Introduction to The Seeker Audiobook

Speaker 1 0:45

Thank you so much for tuning in. We're breaking format today just a little bit in that. Some of you may know I recently launched the audiobook version of the Seeker and it was a very, very much a labor of love and something I'm motivated to get eyeballs and ear balls on. So I'm having a cousin, believe it or not, come on and interview me for the third time ever on my own podcast. Again, those that have tuned in regularly know we're all about showcasing and highlighting other artists, creatives, storytellers, but I rarely get my jollies. I'm constantly creating and, probably like a lot of delusional authors, I frankly think this latest book, which became an audiobook, deserves to be the next Harry Potter. So toward that end, I'm having a cousin, believe it or not, come on and interview me. As I've said before I you know we're over 50 episodes in. We're into about coming up on a year and a half and I've only really spoken about myself on three episodes. We did two animation renaissance episodes and it was very satisfying for me to talk about my 11 years at Disney Feature Animation. I guess I'm coming up. You know, feeling my mortality and legacy is becoming very important to me. So very satisfying to do this and I hope you hang in there Before I have our guest host come in and she'll introduce herself and how we're connected. I'm going to do what we do at the top of every episode and read today's guest bio. This is actually the author bio on the back cover of the Seeker.

Speaker 1 2:20

Dominic Domingo is a veteran Disney feature animation artist and live action filmmaker whose award-winning narrative non-fiction essays and short stories have been included in anthologies. His young adult fantasy trilogy, the Nameless Prince, launched in 2012 through Twilight Times Books and has been captivating imaginations ever since. The Seeker represents Dominic's foray into mythic, visionary fiction. It is a universal parable about the transformation that speaks to the journey we all share. Dominic resides in the Franklin Hills neighborhood of Los Angeles and can be seen pecking away on his laptop in coffee shops on any given day. With that, I'm going to invite our guest host into the room. Welcome, shauna Rae Ruff.

Speaker 2 3:04

Hello listeners. So listeners, I can't think of a more fantastic way to spend my Saturday than talking about literature and personal connection and personal story with someone that you may know as an artist and an animator and a writer, but I also know him as my cousin and part of my family, and so I am thrilled to get to spend some time with Dominic Domingo and talk about the Seeker.

Speaker 1 3:47

I'm so glad we're doing this and you were. I already know like, oh my god, you're the right person. You're, you're awesome, yeah. Yeah, you're a natural host and I know you've done it right. You've had a vlog before, or?

Speaker 2 4:00

yeah, I've done.

Speaker 1 4:01

I've done social meeting and and blogging before, so yeah, you're awesome anyway, but just so you know, I feel the same way. I so lucky to have somebody in the family. That's well. We have a lot of creatives in our family, right. But I really respect your take on everything, your worldview, your creative expression, all of that, and so it's mutual. I'm so glad. Thank you in advance oh, absolutely I.

Speaker 2 4:24

I think that our family has some type of just genetic connection to story and art and literature and creating. So this is, this is like the perfect way.

Speaker 1 4:36

This is the perfect way to spend spend a Saturday yeah, there's so many of us that turned out to be writers. And you go back to Emerson's and Clinton's letters and right, they were just so eloquent. I, I think letter writing was a real art back then, but so articulate, so eloquent, so poetic, you know. Anyway, it's no mistake so many of us became storytellers brain.

Speaker 2 5:11

I feel like this is, um, this is a wonderful opportunity for me as someone who loves to eat and study and I love reading things that make me think and um and and question things in a good way, so I'm excited to to be able to come to the source, so to speak you can call me a horse, it's's okay.

Speaker 1 5:29

The horse is Mel.

Speaker 2 5:30

And just learn kind of more about your process and your thinking and how this beautiful thing came to life.

Speaker 1 5:38

Well, I'm excited to talk about it. You know, when I first wrote it mid-pandemic, I did talk about it a little bit but then dropped the ball on promoting it. So now that the audiobook has come out, I'm really just trying to get it out there more. I feel like the audio book is the perfect format for it. So I'm just now getting my jollies really sharing it with people and talking about it. So let's see what I remember. It's been so long since I wrote it that a lot of it goes bye-bye. But I do want to say I guess we can put a cap on the Mutual Admiration Society. But I will say your feedback on the Nameless Prince and the Seeker has been so valuable to me and that's kind of what I meant when I said I respect your worldview, I like your take on all things, creative expression, and you get me, man, you seem to get me. So it's exciting. And I've told you too. I've literally never been interviewed by somebody about my work who's actually read the work.

Speaker 2 6:32

Oh my goodness.

Speaker 1 6:33

Well, maybe they read an excerpt, but I go above and beyond. As host, I've read entire books in preparation to have somebody on. And I'm the odd I think I'm just an odd duck because I feel like, really, what is there to talk about other than the really standard rote questions? I like to get into the meat of it. So I'm excited because you have read it, maybe not too recently, but I think at least I don't know hopefully it'll lead to more meaningful conversations and I know-.

Speaker 2 6:59

Absolutely, and that I think I love being able to have that process of sharing something after you've read it and and connect in other ways to people that you may not be able to otherwise connect. I think that that's one of those, you know, just one of those universal experiences that something like this, in a story like this, can bring Um. So so this is exciting stuff. I'm glad to to be a part of it.

Speaker 1 7:31

Well, thanks again.

Speaker 2 7:32

Absolutely so. Where would you like to start?

Speaker 1 7:36

Well, actually I don't want to drive at all, but a synopsis might be in order. Well, for the listeners, I will say this because this is a multifunctional interview here, I plan to put it as a supplemental episode on our own podcast, because I did two animation episodes where I got to talk about my career. But, in general, we're highlighting and showcasing other artists and storytellers and creatives, but I'm not getting my jollies. So it was so satisfying to me to literally talk about my 11 years at Disney, because I rarely get to and I guess I'm feeling my age and feeling my mortality. So this is a real treat for me, but I don't want to drive. Maybe, though, because I am a podcaster, we should. For listeners that aren't familiar, we could read the synopsis. I've got a book in my hand.

Speaker 2 8:22

So, nick, I was hoping that you could give us a synopsis, just for a mind refresher, if someone hasn't had the opportunity to read this work of art yet to give us a little background sure?

Speaker 1 8:37

yeah, I have a couple. As you know, you can have a book jacket blurb, a 150 word synopsis longer ones, shorter ones. So I'm just going to read the one on the book jacket. It's's a little more play-by-play, it's almost like a not a synopsis but a plot summary, but I think it. I sprinkle in just enough of the thematic content to the play-by-play that I think people will get a sense of what it's all about. So the back cover says Amateus is unaware of his divine heritage.

Speaker 1 9:07

He has but one foggy, time-shrouded memory of his mother. In aware of his divine heritage, he has but one foggy, time-shrouded memory of his mother. In it. She has lulled him to sleep with her lullaby on the volcanic shores of Milos. He wakes in time to see her, poised on a swell of alabaster sand, gazing back at him. Her eyes are those of one on the brink of freedom, but they are mired with equal regret. She dashes beyond the bone-white hillcrest and is gone. When Amateus is seventeen, dianora's lullaby comes to him on the breeze, overtaking the song of the sea.

Speaker 1 9:37

Amateus fights his practical nature. He has no use for gods or goddesses or mortal heroes, but knows he must heed the call he sets out on the Zayton, his father's barge, vowing to sail the seven seas to find her. That was a tongue twister. His route intersects with Icarus's flight path from the palace at Knossos, and it is Amateus who rescues a drowning Icarus from the sea when the boy plunges from glory. The two continue on as a team, scouring the Cyclades for any clue of Dianora's whereabouts. They face great peril, learning the cruel king Minos has put a price on Icarus' head, and they are being tailed by Petrus Kyriakou, the most ruthless bounty hunter in the Greek Isles.

Origins of The Seeker's Story

Speaker 1 10:19

An oracle warns Amateus his desire is misguided and goes against the gods, but faith compels him onward to face the forces of nature that conspire against them Raging tempests, tidal waves, a Mycenaean invasion and the eruption of Thera, which will one day incinerate much of the Cyclades. As it turns out, zeus himself is determined to thwart the boy's mission, but not for the reason Amateus thinks. The truth of his divine heritage, discovered through great fortune and equal defeat ultimately leading him to Mount Olympus itself, is revealed only through peril, ultimately triumphing over disillusionment. Amateus' journey toward redemption is one we all share. He learns in the end that the wrath of the gods was but a series of tests that he might prove his heroism and secure his place in Elysium. The thing is, he's not sure that's where he wants to end up. I did that all with no light, so sorry for the stumbling, but yeah, there we go.

Speaker 2 11:22

I shared a lot of this in, like some of my online review that I was able to do, which thank you for letting me do that. That was. That was a fun thing to do.

Speaker 1 11:31

It's a gift to me. I mean, I like what you're saying. If I read something that touches me or moves me or enlightens me or, you know, I don't know changes my thought forms or paradigms, I would want to pick the brain of the author. I'm kind of surprised people say so little and I think sometimes they you know they don't, or I've done this myself with guests on the podcast I just go. I'm not qualified to review you, like it's I'm not qualified, but I don't. But I'll give them interpretive feedback, like here's how it moved me or touched me, or here's what I related to. So you're like there's a conversation and I'm glad you're saying that it's satisfying for you to have these conversations. It's the podcast is stimulating and it's uh, gets me out of bed in the morning for sure right.

Speaker 1 12:19

I don't know if I helped steer us toward, toward anything eventually right.

Speaker 2 12:25

Um, one, one of the things that you know in, in thinking back of when I first read it, and I and I think that it really aligns with kind of the age that I'm at and just, you know, within, like family dynamics where other people in my family are, one of the themes that really just kept on coming back to me was that just primal desire for connection and seeking purpose and and just that idea of you know we go through different, different stages of our lives and different stages of development and there's always somehow that element of seeking what's?

Speaker 1 13:24

it's the title of the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I do you feel that? Um? I'm just in taking that in uh connection? Is that different than um?

Speaker 2 13:39

purpose yes, purpose are those two different things you know what I?

Speaker 2 13:43

I think that they're different but they overlap, like I, I. It would be interesting. It would be interesting if you asked you know different, different people that you know you come across where their ideas fall. Because I think that with connection comes purpose and with purpose comes connection. I know that, like in my work and in my job I feel like my purpose is evolved and with that has become, I've become greater, there's been greater connection, purpose. Sometimes people see that as like a lowercase p, like I'm here for ABCD, kind of the in and out daily, but thinking of it more universally.

Speaker 2 14:48

That's kind of where I am in my life, thinking about the more kind of universal themes right and seeing things differently and I and I think that in in the course of the story of the seeker, that that was something that I really connected with and was, in, you know, the forefront of my mind.

Speaker 1 15:09

Yeah, I guess I'll say this in terms of the overlap, because, um, I think you're right, you know those, they can be separate things, but there's overlap. So, in the case of the seeker, uh, I will say this you know, it's a hero's journey by definition and it's got a lot of the milestones of the classic hero's journey and often, coming home, right, everything you needed is in your own backyard. So, in the wizard of oz you know, that's kind of the thing you come home and you see everything through different goggles and the alchemist follows that same thing, everything you need is right there. And so, in that way, I think amateus comes into his purpose by realizing, contributing to the collective right. It's been said that inner peace, tranquility, well-being, satisfaction, all those things we seem to be seeking through our religion or our spiritual practice, all those things we seem to be seeking, um, magically happen when you serve. So, when you are part of a community and you're giving back to the collective, magically you stop navel gazing right and then, uh, right, that's where the well-being is. So, yeah, I think it's a classic hero's journey in that the connection that he's so desperately seeking lacking, right, the maternal figure, uh, it was right at home to begin with. He just needed new eyes to see it and appreciate it. So, anyway, that's the overlap for me, and I'm so glad you keyed in on those two words connection and purpose.

Speaker 1 16:37

I do think we're, all you know, seeking purpose and sometimes even people that have a sense of purpose in putting a roof over a head and meals on the table and you know, feeding mouths and serving. Well, you know what your kids do grow up and you suddenly have empty nest syndrome. So right, and you can speak to that as a mother. It's like then there's a redefining that happens. What's my purpose? Now my kids don't seem to need they always need their mother. But right, they're out of the house, they've gone to college. So I think we're always maybe redefining what our purpose is, uh, so anyway, I agree with you.

Discussing Literary Voice and Description

Speaker 2 17:14

Those are two of the big themes. Yeah, um, you know, and another thing that that I was thinking about, as I was kind of reviewing and and looking over things again, is just that the story and the idea of redemption, Of course, yeah.

Speaker 2 17:36

And I think you know again, depending on where people are in their lives and the age and just kind of all of the factors and variables that life brings anyone, that idea of being in a place in your life where either you're looking for redemption or want redemption and and just that introspection I I think that, looking at society, and maybe it's because of my age and remembering the world before the internet and social media whatever it rings a bell, yeah yes, just that idea of looking inward and connecting to you, know, connecting to yourself and being able to own what your life has given you and consciously making an effort to do something with it.

Speaker 1 18:49

Well, I think redemption is a loaded word, right, and we could talk. We could spend the whole podcast talking about what is, what is redemption and what does that look like and what are the mechanics of it. But, uh, I agree with you that I mean you kind of just said in so many words that it is about transforming the eyes, through which you see what was already right there in front of you in the first place, right? So maybe the redemption, after all the seeking far and wide, was realizing yes, if I just appreciate what was always there to begin with, that is my redemption. So I'm just, that's what I heard in what you said.

Speaker 2 19:20

Yes, that's what I heard and what you said. Yes, and I, and I think it's interesting because you know, thinking about that, I, I think about how, in today's world, stories are shared now and how that has changed people's thinking, and I think that it's a double-edged sword, right? I think that well, you know.

Speaker 1 19:58

So yeah, I think I know what you're saying. I mean, it's been said, the world is a smaller place than ever. Right, and you can connect with somebody on a different continent and in a way that can be daunting and overwhelming. Right, even just in terms of feeling futile, like there's nothing much we can do about this war or that war, and so I do think it's. There's a little irony in that. Yeah, we are connected, but maybe our grassroots circle of friends and family and loved ones are where we need to be serving and putting our attention. So I don't know if that made sense, but uh, yeah, no, I.

Speaker 2 20:33

It's interesting how I think it really does always come back to something more simple, like we can go so big and so bold and so but, but somehow, inevitably it comes back to you know, self and family and you know all that, that inner work.

Speaker 1 20:57

Yeah, I think social media is a false sense of connection, sometimes Absolutely and so truly. Again, if somebody can build a huge platform in social media and have a huge reach, but if they're not using it to contribute, there may not be as much satisfaction as just smiling at a dog I don't know where I came up with that one. Smiling at a dog, helping an old lady across the street, kissing a baby, you know, just throughout your day finding more and more opportunities to feel divinity, and I guess I'm going to take that opportunity to lay some groundwork because I think we're getting into some nuance and some nitty gritty, uh. So I want to say the whole parable of seeking right, and there's a lot of odysseys out there and a lot of um heroes, journeys and uh quests. You know there's a lot of a lot of stories on that template.

Speaker 1 21:52

But in this case what he's actually seeking and you mentioned the word redemption is to reconnect with divinity. So the mother right is literally a goddess, but he doesn't know it and so he does have that pining or that yearning for more, as you put it, I think. But if you start to look at it as a parable for the spiritual journey at large that we all go through, simply reconnecting with you, call it what you want your core essence, right, your spirit, your soul, your divinity, your higher consciousness, collective consciousness. It is the journey toward that.

Speaker 2 22:29

So the reward redemption in this context might just mean reconnecting with our divinity inspiration behind sharing this story, like what in in in an artist's brain, and you have many forms of art that you create in um. Where did this idea start? Where did it? Where did it originate from?

Speaker 1 22:56

well, you know, I'm only going to go into this because you nicely have read the nameless prince as well, and there's a family member.

Speaker 1 23:03

Oh, thank you. Yeah, you gave me some great feedback on that as well. But also a family member is part of the inspiration. But to back up, you know I will say the Nameless Prince.

Speaker 1 23:18

I never thought I would write in any given genre. I just wanted to tell a good story and honor sort of my influences growing up in children's literature and the traditions that I, you know, really valued as a child. The escape, and, you know, only later did I realize there was some pretty profound meaning in some of the works that I gravitated toward. So I just wanted to honor, you know, be part of the traditions that I enjoyed as a child. But I'd never really thought, oh, it's young adult urban fantasy. I had to be told that.

Speaker 1 23:46

So at the time, well, I didn't know. Like, oh, I love through the rabbit hole stories is how I would have put it where the protagonist, you know, is in a relatable way for all readers, because life is tough and sometimes young people need a little guidance. I just love the idea of a protagonist that's struggling with something, that meets a sage in an alternate realm right, or goes through a portal and meets a sage and then, just in the typical hero's journey, gains the wisdom that they can bring back and apply in everyday life. But that's as far as it went for me. I didn't realize, oh, I'm going to like share my worldview or my philosophies or anything about metaphysics. None of that was an agenda, really. I just honored the traditions that are so in every cell of my body, right, but then they had to tell me, oh, that's young adult urban fantasy and I'm like great, market it that way.

Speaker 1 24:38

I just I just honored the inspiration and I feel like told the story that I wanted to tell, that I envisioned. Anyway, in all these years later I prefer to write. Really it's a little bit elitist, but I like literary fiction. So I like when it defies genre if that makes sense. And I have written in every imaginable genre, a lot of it being autobiographical and memoir, narrative, nonfiction essays, and I think truly that's how I identify. So it's a little bit of an irony that I now wrote not young adult urban fantasy, but mythic fiction meets visionary fiction. So you know, mythic fiction is a little bit what it sounds like it's. Madeline Miller's Song of Achays is a recent one that did really well.

Speaker 1 25:24

But visionary fiction, I've always saw it as a very awkward genre. Right, it's actually at odds with everything I've learned about literary value and artistic integrity. When you spoon feed didactic moralism, right, ethics, philosophy, any of that, save that for the self-help genre, if that makes sense, it's very awkward to put it in narrative format. So I do have my favorites, you know, mitch album and dan millman, and even paul coelho who did the alchemist there are. You know, um jonathan livingston, siegel. There have been visionary fiction books that gracefully use narrative to impart again didactic content, but very awkward and I think it's really hard to pull off.

Speaker 1 26:11

So ironic that I did choose that. So now I'm identifying, you know when you put Nameless Prince and its sequel, the Royal Trinity, together with the Seeker, dear Lord, I've devoted a lot of my time to doing this, but anyway. So it's ironic that I ended up here. But I am what I am. I guess when you get to be a certain age and you know I'm over half a century you do want to take all you've experienced and share, whether it's wisdom or insight or just reflection. I want to share my take on the world. So sorry for the long answer, but basically, no, it's perfect.

Speaker 1 26:49

Well, yeah, the Seeker was my pandemic book. So I think a lot of people had a creative explosion. I think we were talking during that time and a lot of people had a creative explosion. And I actually saw it as we had a cultural timeout and people had time to reflect. And how could that not right that kind of introspection? How could it not bear some fruit? I had naive hopes about what would be the outcome of all that, that timeout, and it didn't necessarily pan out the way I had hoped. But but for me, I basically had a creative explosion and I will say this one day I was at the gym my gym reopened for five minutes in California the restrictions lifted right and I got on the life cycle, tried to get rid of my spare tire and of course they then had to close again. But in that five-minute window, aunt Marnie you know, aunt Marnie turned me on to Song of Achilles, so I listened to it.

Speaker 1 27:47

I'd really never listened to audiobooks, but I listened to it on the Life Cycle and it rocked my world. And you know, my inspiration often comes from like, oh my God, I've got my own story, just like that. You know David Sedaris is I will credit him for you know, inspiring me to write my narrative nonfiction essays. I thought, oh, he struggled with the language in France, so did I. He's got a mom named Sharon, so do I. I'm gay, he's gay. We share a lot of the milestones of that experience and, for good or bad, these people inspire me to try my hand at it, for good or bad.

Speaker 2 28:22

These people inspire me to try my hand at it. Well, I'm glad that you tried your hand at it, because the results were fantastic.

Speaker 1 28:30

Well, thank you, yeah, I mean. So when I read it I did realize I was just inspired, because myth is the perfect way not to employ, you know, shakespearean templates or even greek tragedies or any of the hero's journey per se.

Speaker 1 28:51

but really mythic archetypes mythic archetypes really tell a heightened truth when it comes to the human condition. So all I know is I just wanted to try my hand at it. You as inspired by that audiobook. But then I don't remember really how the concept came to me, other than I had been through hell.

Speaker 1 29:11

I had to fight during a pandemic to regain my agency. I landed in the hospital for 18 days with a litany of diagnoses that read like war and peace. I basically told the nurse just tell me what I don't have, it'll be quicker. So just literally recovering everything. I had to fight for every blood test, every MRI, every you know x-ray to diagnose certain things that were going on with my body, many of them related to the meds that I had to be on literally to remain alive. So I went to physical therapy and worked until there were tears in my eyes to get my strength back and with that my agency in an impacted healthcare system, right when I lost my doctor because he was the infectious disease specialist at LAC USC, so he was needed on the main campus. So I just lost my care and it always.

Speaker 1 30:03

I guess I'll tell one little story In all of it. I have a friend that works for the Dalai Lama, and I had already upped my spiritual game. I was even before I landed in the hospital. I meditated every single day and did my CBD oil and, you know, really upped my spiritual game to try to avoid the knife. I was dealing with skin cancer. I've had several bouts with it, several excisions, several reconstructive surgeries, but this one, this basal cell carcinoma on my forehead, was taking over a lot of real estate and I just didn't want to be maimed again. So I tried these alternative methods, right, cbd oil Anyways.

Connection, Purpose and Redemption Themes

Speaker 1 30:41

And then I still had to go into the knife, but I had already really upped my spiritual game is the best way to put it. And then there's, of course, when you have a brush with death, your entire perspective changes, and it was nothing left with that. It was nothing less than that. I basically mourned life as I knew it and I had a whole new life handed to me. So there was so much spiritual evolution, so much emotional maturation. But how could you not write a book about it? So I don't remember how or why, but the mythic template seemed like the best way to talk about what I had just been through and everything I learned as a result.

Speaker 1 31:17

So sorry if that's ambiguous, but basically every what I will say is, as a writer, I do try. Well, there's no way around it. Really, it's been said every character in a novel is an aspect of the author's psyche, and so amanteus and um icarus were definitely warring factions in my own psyche and I was trying to, you know, resolve some cognitive dissonance and really come out the other end with thought forms, you know, that were synthesized. And then they also say you know, a novel is a snapshot of the author's worldview at the time of its writing, and there's really no way around that. But when I write I try to.

Speaker 1 31:57

You know, again, I'm kind of all over the place here, but some people that are really value literary fiction, or you fiction, or narrative nonfiction or memoir above all else, as the pinnacle of truth-telling, kind of frown on anything that's invented, observing a template like the hero's journey, it can speak a heightened truth that has the universal value you were hinting at earlier. That really speaks to the human condition and specifically the spiritual journey. So I try I'm not going to say I try with every word. I draw on personal experience. I think if you don't then you just fall back on familiar tropes and those stereotypes. But I'm not kidding if it's going through a canyon in the nameless prince. I went back to petra and just talked about the hieroglyphics and you know the way the little uh flood channels channel the water from the cistern at the center of that space and so, even if it's just for authentic details or ambiance or texture, I do draw on life experience.

Speaker 1 33:07

If I can't find it if I can't find it, I take a break, go for a walk, cry later. So, with the emotional content and the plot points, of course it's got to be from experience. So I'm talking about I'm talking about Zeus, you know, whipping up tidal waves and Thera's eruption, and I'm talking about the behemoth that rises from the depths of the water. No, I've never encountered a behemoth, but play by play, either something was symbolic within the parable for something I dealt with or encountered. Every word of the seeker is from life experience seeker is from life experience.

Speaker 2 33:47

Well, and, and going off of that, one of the things that I really hone into in, not just your writing of the seeker- but in other things that you've previously, you know, published um is the meticulous I want I want to call it meticulous care that you take in how you describe things like the, the, the writing process that you go through is is magical and even if I didn't know you and know your background prior to being a published author, um in reading um, your written words, it is. It is illustrative Like I can close my eyes and I can picture these things. It's the words of an artist.

Speaker 1 34:38

Wow, thank you.

Speaker 2 34:39

And I and I really think that. That is one of the things that makes the story.

Speaker 2 34:57

So Wow, thank you. But that's trite to even call it that, because it's so much more elevated than that, and I think that that's what makes the story so relatable and so easy to connect to is that there is soul to the words. It's not just a story. I feel like it's not just a story, it's an it's. I, I feel like it's not just a story. I mean, it is a story, it's, but it's an experience. It's not a story that's been written, it's an experience that's been gone through and I and I feel that in the, in the descriptive art of of the narrative, it's just you, just you go along with it. You can't help but experience it thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1 35:51

Yeah, I mean, that is the goal, right, and I think there's a reason. Descriptive writing, as you might teach to your students, you know, has value when you engage all the senses. There's an immediacy, right, and hopefully the authenticity is what transcends right, because it's I mean, that's the magical element of the creative process. I do think if it's a lived experience, as you put it, or an inspired concept that transcends the mechanics, right, the technique, the craft. So thanks for saying that I will. I'm going to take it a little further because you do know me and therefore you know I'm an illustrator and I spent 11 years at.

Speaker 1 36:26

Disney. You know, ironically, people that know me are the ones that say, oh my God, it's so epic, it's so cinematic, it should be a movie. And I often have to say thanks for saying that. But I think I know Like I'm a little defensive. Thanks for saying that, but I think I know I'm a little defensive as an author who's been writing. I got my first typewriter at the age of seven and so I want to be viewed as an author. If I submit a manuscript there's no mention of my illustrative background at all. But the people that know me project on it and say, oh, it's so descriptive. And I have to say, yes, but I would never describe something if it slowed down the plot. A great writer knows you sprinkle in sensory details, but not at the expense, right of the character arc or the escalation of the conflict, whatever it is. So I love and you did say thought put into the right words, or something like that.

Speaker 1 37:23

Yeah, very intentional, very intentional, yeah, yeah, yeah, and that's what I like to hear. I don't love to hear like, oh my god, it's so descriptive, it's so cinematic. Sure, I want to engage you, I want to put you in that space and therefore. Well, but I like when they say the right words, because I yeah, I am hopefully precise with the words.

Speaker 2 37:44

But you know it's a lot. Right and I just think that that lends so well to it being relatable, right and for people being able to connect to the story.

Speaker 1 37:55

I do think it's important, I mean, and things evolve. You know I read Wuthering Heights. I was raised on classic literature and you would never get away with the level of description. Now, because of the cultural ADD, and I go through a lot of every piece that's not self well, even the ones that are self-published, I still go through editing. But with the published pieces I usually go through two rounds of editing with different editors. So it's kind of fascinating to get so many eyeballs on your manuscript. But I will say there's a push. It might even be unexamined, it's not a conscious agenda, but we're catering to cultural ADD.

Speaker 1 38:32

And I personally know that voice is the casualty when you homogenize and make everything generic. You know, almost as if AI wrote it. Everything generic, you know almost as if ai wrote it so. So I just feel like you know style is, you can have style over substance, but really voice, narrative voice, is the worldview of the author when you start really cleaning up. I kind of off in the weeds here, but you know I met an editor at a party long before I was published and she's I just clearly had a fear of being edited. So I said, well, how do you know when you're stepping on the toes of the author and you're robbing a piece of voice. And she was oh, I think I know and her husband who was her. She was her husband's editor and he's standing behind her shaking his head.

Speaker 2 39:21

She doesn't know, she doesn't know, she doesn't know, she doesn't know, he doesn't know. He does not.

Speaker 1 39:25

Yeah, so I just feel like I was raised on literature so I could easily go overboard with description. You know, I think I mentioned Wuthering Heights, right? Yes, if you describe one more piece of China, I'm out of here, I'm going to jump out the window.

Speaker 1 39:40

So even I the window, so even I yeah, so I like minimalism and, um, you know, ray bradbury taught me minimalism. He's it's sci-fi, but you know what it's poetic? It speaks of the human condition and it's not all laser guns and robots, and so I just love his. Economy is the way I put it, saying more with fewer words. So hope I feel pretty satisfied that I've struck a balance.

Speaker 1 40:06

I have one piece I wrote. It was meant to be flowery, I was bringing in a Victorian sensibility to it. It was just a little short story and my friend used the word flowery and I'm like great, perfect, my job is done, because the voice of that piece was meant to be old school and archaic, if that makes sense. Anyway, but I I'll evolve. You know, some people's pieces are more flowery, some are more minimal, I guess, and maybe some are more descriptive. But I think you're right, it's kind of required I do.

Speaker 1 40:38

I only brought all this up because I'm reading a lot of manuscripts now for audible. I'm narrating for audible, so I read a lot of manuscripts. I'll leave it at that and then, having the podcast, I try to read as much as I can before a guest comes on. So I am seeing a lot of content. I parse between content and story, and so a lot of content that that content can be generic. And for me I just think style is the worldview of the author. So if that means a certain rhythm or cadence or word juxtaposition that really intrigues and puts you in a nonlinear space, voice is not a thing of the past and sometimes description is part of that voice sorry if I absolutely dead horse yeah no, no, and I was going to say side note um with this, with the seeker and audiobooks, um, because of course I'm, I'm in that gen x.

Speaker 2 41:40

Um, I want a hard copy and a digital copy right I know, I know I like to make my more life more complicated.

Speaker 2 41:47

so of course I have the seeker as a in print paper book, but I also have the audio version. And I have to say I was I was, um, talking to my sisters. We have a little virtual book club every month and we share what we've been reading and we talk about different books and have a book of the month. And I said something about the Seeker and I said, yeah, not only do I have it in, like the old school hard copy, but I also have it as the audio, because there is something really special to me, um, and connective, when I can listen to the, the story in the author's voice. And so that was just a fun bonus. And I'm like I'm so glad he did an audio version of it so that I can get a double dose, cause I just it brings kind of just a personal fireside chat kind of vibe, and so in that in the digital age and you know how that can disrupt connection Um, it it is. It is fun to hear your voice. Thank you, I'm glad.

Speaker 1 43:15

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of audio books. Like I said, that song of Achilles was the first that I had read and it was probably the only reason I was able to get through. It was because I could do it on the life cycle. So I kind of respect that. It's not. I will never sort of be partnered with the crime of cultural ADD. I'm never going to cater to cultural ADD. But I know, for me, literally my eyeballs are text. I've spent my entire adult life using the rods and cones of my eyeballs in animation. So, and then you know, with the meds that I have to be on, as I alluded to earlier, I just can't read more than a page. So I'm a big fan of audiobooks now, but the ones I like best, yes, are in the author's voice.

Speaker 1 43:59

And really the only reason I did it I was doing books for audible and I thought, why have I never done my own book? Well, it takes a lot of hours. So I went ahead and bit the bullet and I just put in a lot of unpaid hours to do it. Anyway, I only did it because I was spending so many hours doing other people's work on audible. I thought why not do my own, uh, but I do like it. I mean, I have only heard from two people that read the print version and have now read the audio, and I think I won't say any names Renee Renee said it, that was my guess.

Mythic Archetypes and Greek Influences

Speaker 1 44:36

Renee brought another. She said it did make her reconsider it, or it was a slightly different experience, and she might've even said it was more vivid for her. So, anyway, I I have no perspective on it, you know, but I I wonder if it was a different experience for you. Uh, I did have somebody that read along with it while listening, which was yeah, I don't know if it lands differently. When I read it, sometimes I feel like, ooh, it's less poetic and it's something else. It's just something else, it feels like a word or something.

Speaker 2 45:11

Yeah, there's just I don't know, there's just a flow to it and maybe it's just like literally your voice, Like maybe that's, but you have a storyteller's voice, like physically, like auditorially as well, as you know, in written words, so um. So I love it.

Speaker 1 45:29

I love it Well thank you, I'm so glad. Yeah, it is interesting. Anyway, I'm not going to make any apologies for my performance. It was so many hours that I had to just get it done and so I will say this Like narrating as a 17-year-old, I did realize, oh my God, my voice is so 56.

Speaker 1 45:50

It just is, it happens. But I did get it to a point where you know, and I've talked to a couple audible narrators who, if you're doing sort of you know mid-Atlantic for a character, and then you go, he said sometimes you know the mid-Atlantic carries over into the. He said, right, they're called dialogue tags, he said. And so I just had to let those things go. And I did realize at one point, all the male characters are the same, it's the same, you know the same voice. And then all the crone right, the old crone characters had kind of the same voice. But I didn't have time to pre-plan it, I just had to motor through it, you know. But I'm anyway, I'm happy with it and people, I do think audiobooks are a thing and, um, my eyeballs can't handle reading.

Speaker 2 46:34

So I was glad to do it and maybe it'll reach more people than it would have otherwise right, that's, that's what I like to think as far as, because I know, like some people have such vivid opinions of you know audio books or you know paper books or whatever, and and I guess maybe my, my teacher brain says what is going to put literature and reading and story in the hands of more people and make it more equitable and accessible.

Speaker 1 47:05

Exactly. Yeah, I haven't. I mean, I love it.

Speaker 2 47:10

If it's audio books, then okay exactly.

Speaker 1 47:13

Yeah, I haven't. I mean, if it's audio books, then okay, sure, yeah, no, I was. I was a little slow to get on board, for you know, I love the smell of books, I love the tactile feeling of books, I love the smell of a library or a bookstore. I'm a coffee shop guy so, yeah, I don't think that's ever going to go away and it's not a. I guess I, we opened up this can of worms.

Speaker 1 47:28

So one of my favorite filmmakers, cuaron, came out with Roma right at the point where they were starting to do these hybrid releases right, streaming and theatrical at the same time and it was the first thing he had shot on HDDV rather than 35 millimeter. And so I heard him in an interview saying oh no, I'm excited about shooting on HDDV, I can't wait for the hybrid release. And I was like that is the saddest thing I've ever heard. He's talked himself into this Because I know he's a purist, I know he's a cinephile, but so I don't think I'm doing that. I just think it was satisfying creatively to interpret it as the author doing the narration and I hope that transcends. So it wasn't like selling out for me. I did think it'll get in the hands of more people this way. Yeah, anyway, but I'll never lose my love of right, the feeling of the paper, and I have so many books. By the way, this is a confession. I bought a lot of books in Paris when I was working there for Disney, and there's a.

Speaker 1 48:27

As you should have Well, well, mostly bandesine. There's a whole section of the latin quarter that has bandesine, which are comic books and graphic novels, and then the bouquiniste along the seine. I loaded up on books. I don't know how I got them back here, but anyway, sadly, I've been watering my plants on my armoire, not realizing the water was dripping down into my armoire where all the books live. So pretty, pretty much, they're all mildewy and the pages stick together. But I would have a library in every room if I could same same.

Speaker 2 49:01

I would absolutely agree on that. I would fully support that. So, speaking of, as we've been speaking about, author's voice, figuratively and literally, do do you have like, was there a? Was there a part, as you were writing, where, kind of picking your brain as the the point of view of an author, before you wrote something and you're like, oh, this is the favorite part that I've written? And you know, not not necessarily because I understand, you know, a lot of people don't write in like I am writing chapter one and I am writing chapter two, and but but was there, was there a part of the story where, as you were working on it, you just felt like this is this, is it, this is, you know, just kind of, where it all came together? Or or did you have, I don't want to say a favorite part, um, because that that seems a little bit elementary, but a part that you, you know, something that you enjoyed writing, that that really felt satisfying and and um, purposeful I have like three responses to that, so I'll just motor through them.

Speaker 1 50:21

Uh, you know, there's this idea of killing your babies, right? If you love or I call it clubbing baby seals, if you like a certain phrase or passage or even seen too much, it may not be cohesive, right? You got to kill your baby sometimes. So I'm always aware, and you have to find that too.

Speaker 1 50:39

Over time I used to not like rewrites. I wanted everything to flow off the pen straight from my subconscious, and then I wanted the intuition to be intact and I kind of really hated rewrites. You know what I love them now? And it's because sometimes it feels like chipping away at plaster and finding what a piece was meant to be that always lived there right in the marble to begin with. So rewrites, I only love it more.

Speaker 1 51:05

I've really just gone full 360 on that, where I don't romanticize the idea that, oh, it came out straight off the pen from God. You know I'm kind of kidding, but kind of not. Some ideas are living in the collective consciousness and not that artists. I don't want to be an elitist or say there's anything lofty about this. We're lucky enough to indulge in the creative process and we're lucky enough to harness what's innately human about storytelling. So, without assigning a whole lot of importance to it. I think we all know when we're warmed up and everything flows and we're in the zone right, and when you again need to go take a walk or get some coffee, come back at a later date.

Speaker 2 51:46

Right.

Speaker 1 51:47

But I do know I love rewrites now and it becomes what it was always meant to be. So that's related to your question a little bit, in that I think all writers also know when they found the voice of a given piece. They might have the concept, it might have been inspired, it might have been laid out with three-by-five cards with the turning points and the, the uh sort of exposition, and then the, the inciting incident and the escalation of the conflict. All the beats might be there, but when you sit down to write it you're still finding the voice in most cases. So I've talked to a lot of authors that, ah yes, once I wrote scene, I found the voice and the piece wrote itself.

Speaker 1 52:30

So, to answer your question, straight out the gate I knew what scene I wanted to write and I was consciously honoring you know the influences that I had in mind and I found it right away. The first scene I fell in love with and I thought there's the tone of the novel, right, there's the voice of the author and there is the style, and so I just tried to match everything to that. What then happens is when you don't have a vivid scene that's either action-oriented or, you know, romantic, or if it's not a major plot point and you're just sprinkling exposition. That's kind of necessary.

Speaker 1 53:10

then he went from a to b, right, and there was a lot of that in this novel yeah then he went from, you know, nassos to roads, and you kind of have to do those, but you try to sprinkle in details that are greater than the sum of their parts, if that makes sense. So I tried to make them all equally satisfying. That's never the case. Sometimes exposition simply has to be done right and it's not a real dramatic turning point. But I tried to marry it all together if that makes sense. And I would say this straight out the gate my lighthouse was the sirens. You remember when they um, they mistakenly crash into the island and her call comes on the wind and he's deceived by the siren song, amateus. That is so that I wrote straight out the gate that became my lighthouse. I married everything to that over time, took a lot of massaging.

Speaker 2 54:02

Right, right, I um, and I wonder, you know, coming again coming from the writing skills of a second grade teacher who's teaching second graders to write do you, when you sit down to write, do you kind of just say, like this is where I am and I'm just going to kind of see where it goes, Like, how many of those touch points do you have or create in your writing process?

Speaker 1 54:40

Well, I'm realizing every answer is kind of academic and I apologize for that, but I've been teaching in the arts my entire adult life, right, and now we have a lot of authors come on the show. So I can't like unknow what I know about everybody's relationship with the creative process. But what I will say you're kind of talking about how much do you structure in advance, right? So in animation there's this thing called pose to pose animation and then there's straight ahead, and so pose to pose means you find the key poses that stick on the retina and tell the real story of the action, whereas straight ahead is you just go from frame one to frame two to frame three, without planning those key poses in advance. So I noticed with authors, you have authors that just motor ahead. They don't plan it, they don't do three by five cards, they don't concern themselves with again, the inciting incident or the climax or the denouement, any of that western storytelling structure. And then you have people like me. For the nameless prince I did the three by five cards. I moved them around, I made sure I foreshadowed things that would come to fruition later, I made sure the turning points were all there. I placed them on the western storytelling arc that we're all familiar with and that served me really well and it was my first novel.

Speaker 1 55:55

I again have written since the age of seven, but it was my first novel, so I chewed off a big chunk there. So I just wanted to go about it the right way and all the structuring. What that did is it allowed me to be more organic and intuitive within a scene. If you don't know where you're headed, sometimes you're kind of problem solving in in the writing of it, in the execution of it. So it eliminated the problem solving and it allowed me to just subconsciously access my intuition. I guess that's redundant, but you know, like, for example, if you know where you're going, you can be a little freer about it. And organic. Something would happen like oh, a butterfly came in.

Speaker 1 56:34

I don't know how or why, but I'm going to make sure to you know, introduce that earlier as foreshadowing. I don't know what it means yet, I'm not going to analyze it, I'm just going to trust it and then make sure to bring it back later and later I'll figure out what the hell it means, because it's not always the cliche of transformation or evolution. It can be something else, and so I love that when writing, when I so know where I'm going, that I'm not tasked with problem solving at the moment, it allows my subconscious to step in and create the magic. And again, nothing lofty about what I do. We all have access to this amazing creative process. So I've heard it all. I've heard people that don't structure it all, but I know the pieces that I've literally never finished. It's because either the inspiration wasn't strong enough, so I didn't have a vision for the concept therefore, how could I execute it or I simply didn't know where I was going, so I hit a wall and it feels uninspired when you have right that blank page syndrome.

Speaker 1 57:33

So I just have learned and now I don't structure quite as much as I did on the Nameless Prince, but I absolutely have an outline I more than a lot of authors know, without it being an agenda. I do know the basic thematic content. Whether I have a didactic moral at the end or whether it's, you know, as the French would say, noir or melancholy, or bittersweet, doesn't have a bow on it. I still know the coin I'm trying to speak English here the coin of which I'm showing all sides. I know what the themes are and I can explore the good, the bad and the ugly without it being didactic, but at least and to be honest, to be real technical the, the main theme, is the product of the want and the need. So I for sure know what my protagonist's want is. That's what we invest in as a reader. We want to root for them to achieve their goal. But then the more nuanced version is usually and this is a screenwriting trick right. There may be a superficial goal, but often, if that's not met, there's a higher need, and the reader can even know that long before. Right the protagonist, right higher need is. So I do all of that for sure, and then then of course it evolves. And in our pre-interview I was kind of saying, too, like who remembers, I have I used to write longhand, by the way.

Intergenerational Trauma and Cycle Breaking

Speaker 1 58:55

Talk about old school. I would write entire novels, um, handwritten in my little composition books and I found when entering it I was even freer, my subconscious would kind of tweak it or massage it as I went. So now I don't freer, my subconscious would kind of tweak it or massage it as I went. So now I don't do that. But the point is I have entire nameless princess in handwritten form. The Seeker. I didn't do so much handwriting but of course I did a lot of research, right, I planned out the voyage and which islands they were going to visit. I learned about the Mycenaean invasion and the eruptions of Thera Came up with the perfect year in which to set it to honor all of those. You know world events.

Speaker 2 59:34

I don't remember a thing about that process because it evolves yeah, well, and, and I think that's part of the magic of the story, is that there it's, it's obvious that there was so much thought and purpose into building that background and that just adds to, you know, not only the story but the imagery in creating the story, to have all those details, to have all those details, that was that was one thing that really hit me was just the, the details and the imagery, um, again, going back to you know, the, the, the artist is the author and and having that um as part of your writing, I think is is such a part of the magic thank you.

Speaker 1 1:00:27

Yeah, I hoped to have a grounding and and again, I'm not a historian I took a lot of artistic license just to tell a good story. I didn't even honor, you know, like the classical canon of Greek gods I invented gods, as you know. I invented myths to tell a good story. But of course I tried to do enough research to know you know what year makes the most sense, where I can bring in the historical context. And I felt confident about it.

Speaker 1 1:00:56

In the beginning I did think, because it was new to me, I don't write historical fiction right and this wasn't historical fiction, it was mythic fiction, so a lot of built-in liberties. But I did think, oh my god, later in interviews, am I gonna have to talk about where I discovered the twin swords from Noxos? Am I going to have to talk about you know what type of bronze earthenware or you know the type of pottery they had like? And I did use it all where it made sense, but I just hoped I wouldn't be tested on all of that and I, you know geography quiz from this teacher.

Speaker 2 1:01:26

I will not give you a blank map and expect you to put in any cities or towns or villages right, right, right.

Speaker 1 1:01:34

No, there's so many islands in the aegean and the greek isles and the cyclades there was way too many to wrap my brain around. So I again, I knew, of course I wanted the minotaur and nasos to come into it for a million reasons. I mean just icarus alone. So I really you probably caught this it wasn't based on greek classicism, it was based on bronze era minoan culture, so they had their own religion. But I really tried to.

Speaker 1 1:02:02

You know, a lot of the greek classicism is drawn from minoan culture and so, oh, these, a lot of these gods and goddesses predate Greek classicism and oral tradition a million ways. It made its way into, right, the Peloponnese and the mainland. So I just kind of trusted that these stories had been around a while long before. You know, because you're kind of limited when you go with just minoan culture oh, you got the labyrinth, you got minos, you've got the minotaur, but it kind of ends right there. So again, when I talk about dionysus or whomever, I just assumed they existed in bronze age minoan culture and orally they got passed on, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 1:02:49

And again, drawing from all of those things and and creating that commonality that you know, that can be such the connective point of story, um is is powerful, you know, and I think that it's really evident throughout um, throughout the story, that those connections again, yeah Well, again, grounding I tried to ground it in certain traditions and again authenticity and a fact, but then take liberties where needed.

Speaker 1 1:03:23

But I guess, like one example would be um, when I read and I made this this, I guess I came up with this policy a long time ago when I read a greek myth in isolation, it doesn't always resonate with me in the way that academically it's been understood. So if you look at icarus during, like the dark ages or I guess we don't say that anymore, right, but uh, through the re Renaissance it was about, you know, don't fly too high, don't fly too low, moderation is the key. But it was really appropriate for that time because, you know, we hadn't really, I guess, pre-renaissance, we didn't really embrace humanism. So we were meant to know our place in the universe and it was almost a shaming. It was a cautionary tale. So we were meant to know our place in the universe and it was almost a shaming. It was a cautionary tale. You know, if hubris, which is very much a component of the human condition, if that takes hold, you'll crash and burn. Then, you know, other eras will have a totally different take on it.

Speaker 1 1:04:26

When I read Icarus it resonated with me viscerally in a way. I didn't understand, and but when I read it in context of all the other myths, like the horrific things Daedalus did, I projected onto it and found my own meaning. And that's kind of how I approach this. Every step of the way there are themes of the sins of the father right and sort of cleansing bad blood, just the baggage we all carry, whether it's in our DNA or sort of learned through socialization, kind of writing one's own story, you know. And so I always try to honor the traditions that exist but also project my own meaning onto the archetypes.

Speaker 2 1:05:03

Right, blah, blah, blah, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. Well, and, and you know, you just in in your car something that just hit me in in your comment um, you know that that idea of you know, going, going through experiences and, and, and what gets passed down, good or bad and how the next generation sits with that or resolves it, you know, I think is such, again, going back to things that I think about now at my age that I wouldn't have 20 years ago, that I think about now at my age that I wouldn't have 20 years ago. Um, you know really really being in a point where in in my life where I think you know, are these things that I want to continue? You know these things may have been part of my past or my family's past, or you know, getting getting in that place in life where you are making conscious decisions on is this something that I want to pass on or is this something that no longer serves me?

Speaker 1 1:06:27

right or humanity, I'm gonna take it.

Speaker 2 1:06:29

I don't want to pass on, I think is an interesting thing to think about it at different points in your life and and I definitely would say, you know, I'm, I'm a, I'm a mother and I was quote unquote older when I had my kids.

Speaker 2 1:06:51

I was 40, which is considered to be older, and so, you know, if I had had them when I was in my 20s or 30s, I would have been a very different parent. I would have seen and looked at things very differently, but I didn't. And so you know, I, I think that it's interesting to you know, look at at the story that you've told, and and how we look at the meaning of things and how that changes depending on you know, again, where we are in our life and and you know what, what circumstances may be around us, and and I, there's something about the idea of revisiting stories at different times in one's life that is fascinating to me. I think it, you know, if, if we have a really wonderful book that we've read and we've read it once and then we read it again years later, it it can be a completely different story with a completely different purpose, and and I think, and I think just the nature of storytelling and that idea of redemption and finding one's self is not just a one and done.

Speaker 1 1:08:21

I mean, it can be.

Speaker 2 1:08:21

It is for some people.

Speaker 2 1:08:23

But I love that idea of like, if we're seekers, if we're're seeking, do we ever truly stop that like we don't? I don't think that we be ever become like the past tense of that and the thought like, you know, I, I was seeking, I found it, I'm done, but I think it's just. It's that renewal and when we allow ourselves to look at things differently, in a different aspect. You know, I the past few years I have gone through training with a yoga certification and how, and it's all connected to doing it in the classroom, in the school setting and teaching and my purpose in the classroom, and it just became such an eye-opener and completely shifted my purpose and my priorities in the classroom opportunities for us as as humans, to give our shell, to give ourselves that gift of a shift. And how often do we actually allow ourselves to have that gift and and truly seek and then do something with whatever is found, and I don't think that finding is a final destination. I think it's a touch point and a renewal to go on to seek again.

Speaker 1 1:10:26

I like that. Yeah, you know, ironically you did in the very first Nameless Prince review that you gifted me, you did say this is something I'll come back to later and I know it will take on different meaning and new meaning. And yeah, that is the beauty of story, right, it's a template and it's open to the projections of the patron and that can evolve over time. I know some of my favorite worlds, you know. Sometimes I just go back to Lord of the Rings or the can evolve over time. I know some of my favorite worlds, you know. Sometimes I just go back to Lord of the Rings or the Narnia Chronicles because it's a familiar, it's like comfort food stepping into that world. But yes, of course it takes on new meaning depending on what stage of maturation you're at. You know even the Nameless Prince, the first book to really simplify the themes, it was about how do you overcome disillusionment.

Speaker 2 1:11:13

It's a thing of adolescence.

Speaker 1 1:11:14

Oh my God, the world isn't the place, they told me. How do you work through that disillusionment and come out the other end, the sequel? I aged them by five years. They're now in high school, but it's something I was going through in my 40s in the writing of it.

Speaker 1 1:11:28

Okay, futility is a little different than disillusionment. How do we work through a sense of futility when we throw our hands in the air? But even so, right, people are going to project on it and I hope to leave room for those projections in my writing. Right, if it's universal enough and the archetypes are strong enough, it's oh, I love hearing feedback that's absolutely in line with my intention, but put in slightly different terms, that I never would have, you know, put it myself. So, anyway, I love hearing that. Uh, and I do think we never arrive. I'll agree with you on that right that every moment, I just there were about 12 things I wanted to follow up on and what you said, so I don't think we ever arrive, and every day we're tasked with swapping out a lens or telling a new story.

Speaker 1 1:12:13

That's what our podcast is all about, right, creating a new narrative, seeing the eyes, I mean literally every day. Everything is a choice fear or love. Am I going to choose fear or love in this moment? And the world transforms? Right, hopefully, if you choose the latter.

Speaker 1 1:12:29

But I did want to say too, oh, that you know you talked not to put words in your mouth, but here's what I heard at the very top of what you were saying there's a lot of intergenerational trauma in the world. I've been seeing it around me just based on the people I'm hanging out with. A lot of self-medicating, a lot of self-medicating of intergenerational trauma and passing the baton to the next one. Oh, they'll deal with it, you know they will. They'll go to therapy, they'll put it under a microscope.

Speaker 1 1:13:02

But I'm going to go way lofty here and say we are all wired to be the best versions of ourselves by epigenetics. Collective consciousness gives us the inspiration to be a cycle breaker. We can take these spiritual opportunities or not. Now I'm really preaching, right. But it's very biological, though, right if the whole goal of life is to propagate right and extend itself, proliferate what serves our collective evolution, not self-medicating using drugs because you didn't deal with your intergenerational trauma. We're all being called upon all day, every day, to overcome, to be a cycle breaker, to be the best version of ourselves for future generations.

Speaker 2 1:13:51

Hear, hear.

Speaker 1 1:13:52

Well, I don't know. I assume you agree. I think.

Future Possibilities and Coming Home

Speaker 2 1:13:55

No, no, absolutely, and I think that it is. You know, we are in a time and a place where I think that I mean, for me, there has to be that conscious decision of I'm going to be part of the solution, whatever the solution is in in my, you know, beliefs, my heart, my soul, my whatever, um, that I'm not just going to be a consumer, right, I feel like there's so much consumption, consumption, consumption, and there's a time and a place for that, absolutely, absolutely, not not negating that at all, but I feel like there there is so much you know, there is so much you know if, going back to the basics, that could truly change us on on a level that I feel like is desperately needed Right.

Speaker 1 1:15:12

I'm going to steer it back to the book because, believe it or not, what I just talked about, which is being called upon spiritually to be your best self, you know, but again biologically, so that we continue to evolve, if our noosphere right, the realm of the invisible realm of our morals, ethics, the codes we live by, all those invisibles, that's as important as our bio, you know our biology we will become extinct if we don't continue to adapt or die to evolve, including our ideas. So anyway, that is a theme in the Seeker and I'll be real specific. Like you know, the sins of the father Daedalus did some pretty messed up things in his career and I kind of point out that building the labyrinth to contain the Minotaur, which was the result of a former misdeed, his whole career was spent trying to redeem himself frankly and then, when that didn't work, he's like ah, my son, he's the potential. And there's a lot of parents who project their pipe dreams on their children and depend on their children to redeem their legacy.

Speaker 1 1:16:15

So it's for sure a theme in that storyline. But I would also say that, you know, for Amateus coming home and learning to forgive, you know you make different choices for yourself, but there's also a place one can arrive at where there's forgiveness as well, right, and it's not about blaming, it's about realizing the laws of manifestation.

Speaker 1 1:16:38

You know that, uh, I have a lot of responsibility in what manifests and anyway, I don't know if that makes sense, but those themes are all all over the place and, by the way you know, with the looming messinian invasion and the eruption of thera, it's kind of there's change on the horizon and the book ends with him I, I am, you know, amen to what comes, but it is a constant. I think it's a constant battle every day to reframe and tell a new story.

Speaker 2 1:17:10

For sure, and and I think that that the real secret to that sauce is just realizing what a gift that is that we even get to do that. Yeah, that's so relevant right now, right Like we even you know, have that, have that opportunity, that, um, you know that, if that, if you have voice, then you know you've. I don't know. I just I feel like as an educator, I see so many things happening where voice is being taken away.

Speaker 1 1:18:00

That's why I said it's so relevant in this moment. You know what. You have agency until you're in the ground. If you're above ground, you have a voice and you have agency. And yes, this moment I'm sorry, this moment is all about whether fascism is going to win out again and silence and erase the voices that don't fit the narrative.

Speaker 2 1:18:22

And it's up to artists and storytellers to, and intellectuals right to continue fighting fascism with every breath absolutely, and I and I feel like that has always been needed, but I feel like now even even more so and and I think that that is like that takes a lot of courage. Um, there I was just. I was joking with a, a co-worker, the other day and I was saying something about doing something in in my classroom with my students and they said something about like, oh, you know, we're, we're so afraid to do so many things now in a classroom or teach you know things, because we're worried about the repercussions. And I laughed and I said, well, I just don't make any, I they just don't send, take home the evidence, like they just won't take home the project we'll keep it in the classroom.

Speaker 2 1:19:22

But I, but I think that that, again, if you have a voice, it's, you know it, it is, it is finding how you're going to use that voice.

Speaker 1 1:19:39

Yep, and to me, by the way, I'm not talking about politics at all. I'm talking about preserving our humanity, right? So democracy is one big experiment. It's never lasted. It's an experiment, but what does it stand for? Whether you're a patriot or not, it stands for personal liberty, equity and right. We've always fallen short of that latter one. Um, founding fathers had slaves, blah, blah, blah. Okay, we've fallen short of it, but these are the ideals we're striving toward. So I I will go to my grave saying none of this is political, it's about preserving our humanity.

Speaker 1 1:20:14

And when you silence and erase voices, right, where is the humanity in that? Yeah, and by and propaganda, right, where you start actually trying to dictate what the media propagates, what education propagates, and you, it's under the guise of idealistic things. Right, like right, not a whitewashing history, not cleansing, but tell it actually is based in the laws of manifestation, the law of attraction. When you tell a disempowering story, you sometimes get stuck in that rut and you continue playing those old warbly records. There's no new thought forms to be had. Right, so it's based in idealism, but you don't get to silence and erase people. Sorry, those days are gone.

Speaker 2 1:21:00

Right, you're here, yes.

Speaker 1 1:21:05

Yeah, there's value to all of it. I just think there's a lot of arrogance when you say you're going to I don't know, it's just called propaganda and it's happened a million times and I'm amazed people don't see it. Everything that's happening with these and'm totally preaching, but everything that's happening every day with the executive orders, my answer is, oh, okay, and you didn't see this coming, okay? Are you surprised? Really, I'm sorry. I had a. I have a podcast. I've been preaching my entire adult life how to avoid this impasse where we're at, by the way, right all artists have been fighting fascism with every breath.

Speaker 1 1:21:39

So I'm sorry I'm, my hands are in the air. Talk about futility. It's like, oh okay, so the price of an egg won out over social issues at people's bottom line. So you know, going back to the erosive thought forms actually that might have been coming to a head during the pandemic, I think patriarchy, undeniable capitalist greed, undeniable right, theseist greed, undeniable Right. These will be our undoing. And we were being called upon, mid-pandemic, to really figure that out Right, and now nobody took the opportunity. So here we are.

Speaker 2 1:22:11

So now yeah.

Speaker 1 1:22:14

So the reframing I would say for me it's called hope. You need hope for humanity, you need hope for the future and I have none of that. So every day I'm like, oh my God, my dog, you're like my dog. Okay, I get to go on a walk with my dog. Jane Fonda gets me up in the morning, right, the fact that she still cares at her age and she gets out there and makes a difference. So I have no answers, but I think renewing hope you know a lot of my writing is about that. By the way, the nameless prince was about renewing hope and preserving innocence. It's all code words, right?

Speaker 1 1:22:47

right the shakespearean uh template of preserving innocence or returning to innocence or, um, the erosion of innocence over time. That could be code for spirituality, you know, believing in the invisible childhood imagination and immense capacity and potential to create. All of that is kind of interrelated. Sorry if I got off track.

Speaker 2 1:23:11

No, no, it's no. I I feel like it's all. It's all connected. I feel like it's all connected. I feel like it's all connected. The ending of the book. If you could continue the story, what would the next chapter be If you could write one more chapter? What would the next chapter be If you could write? And if you could write one more chapter, what would the next chapter be?

Speaker 1 1:23:44

Interesting. I love that question I've actually been playing around with is there a second book? You know, nameless Prince became a trilogy. I didn't see that happening, but it just became a trilogy and so of course I've been thinking about is there a second book? But one reader absolutely said there was something uncomfortable or unresolved for him and I said, yes, it's kind of a bittersweet melancholy ending. There's no real bow on it. So I could see, I do know where it would go next, but I would ask you do you see where do you see it going if it was to continue?

Speaker 2 1:24:20

oh, interesting. I think that you know some stories and and you're like, oh, yep, finished, done. And some you're like, well, that was messy, that didn't end the way that I thought it would or expected it would. But I think that that, like, sometimes that's okay because I feel like that's, that's the life is life.

Speaker 1 1:24:49

Yeah, and it's interactive when you don't spoon feed all the resolutions to the reader, when it's left for them to resolve their cognitive dissonance.

Speaker 2 1:24:59

That's when it haunts and resonates and changes paradigms I feel like you know, in movies there's normally that that I'm insane, or you know tv shows or or whatever the case may be, but I I don't think that that's always a representation of real life experience.

Speaker 1 1:25:25

Right? Well, like we said, you need to always reframe, you never arrive.

Speaker 2 1:25:33

Right, experience there's, you know, even when our own lives end and they come to that conclusion, um, that's, it's not really a conclusion and and I'm not even talking about like, do you believe in an afterlife or you know it's not, it's not even that, because your life still continues, in your friends and your family members, and how they honor your legacy, or don't you know?

Speaker 2 1:26:08

I feel like you know the, the people that are left behind, like that, that's, that story and that experience continue. And you know when, when loved ones pass away, you, you see things in a new perspective, you learn new things. You, you know, like there's a whole new experience. So I don't think it's ever really completely over, but I love that idea of taking you know a story or the themes in a story and asking you know what would happen. You know what would happen next or how would this continue? And, of course, my, my, my mind always goes to like I want everyone to live not happily ever after, but you know, I want everyone to find what they're looking for, or peace and redemption and yes and so okay, and is that?

Speaker 2 1:27:17

And is that? Is that possible?

Speaker 1 1:27:19

Right, is it?

Speaker 2 1:27:20

possible for everyone to find redemption.

Speaker 1 1:27:23

Right. So I would say all of that is in the book. You know these themes of do you live on? Are you dust in the wind? Does legacy matter, right? One of the characters, his whole idea, was I was burdened with redeeming my father's legacy, but then he had to learn. I have my own song to write. So those themes are all over it.

Speaker 1 1:27:47

The whole idea of Elysium or Mount Olympus as a destination are problematic for Amateus because for him, life is here and now. The tactile, sensual touch of fingertips, that's because for him, life is here and now. Right, the tactile, sensual touch of fingertips, that's life for him. So he actually had no desire. He didn't even believe in the gods initially, right. And so then, when he realizes, oh, I'm destined for elysium, is that where I want to end up? These are all code for what you just described, right? Yeah, whether it's spiritual afterlife, whether you rejoin the collective or collective consciousness, heaven, whatever you want to call it, or how do they talk about you once you've moved on, right? That is all forms of a legacy. But anyway, I'll let the cat out of the bag. The reader that I mentioned was a gay individual, and so he was very invested in the love story. Again, without giving too much away, I will say everything is a parable, everything in this is symbolic.

Speaker 1 1:28:45

If I told I don't want to let the cat out of the bag, but Amateus and Icarus are two aspects. Everything in this novel is an aspect of the same psyche. So when you view a myth or a parable, that way you're going to get the universal message right. So just a hint those two represent very different sides. I don't want to say it, you know, because they mean different things to different people. But Amateus and Icarus are warring factions within one psyche. Once that's resolved, he flies away in the wrong direction. So you can't do that.

Speaker 1 1:29:21

If it's going to pull readers out of the story, right, I don't want anyone to have questions that they call it seeing through the medium to the message. I don't want anyone to be distracted by the medium. It's like when you're watching a movie and a boom mic comes in the frame, you're aware of the medium. So really I don't want people asking questions that pull them out of the story. But life does have right, unfinished threads, moments.

Speaker 1 1:29:49

So especially with relationships, there's meant to be mystery about the circumstances, under which, anyway, I don't want to say too much. But they wondered what resulted in Icarus leaving. I mean for that to be open to interpretation. I mean for some people to cling to hope that it was real and it wasn't. Do you know what I mean by design? And all those unresolved feelings are intentional, but on a parabolic level, there was meaning to the fact that that relationship was no longer needed and it was no longer serving either party anyway. But but this reader definitely got me thinking about it and I thought, yeah, to satisfy all those need, that need for closure, the person, the person that needs the bow on the box right but you see that there's room.

Speaker 1 1:30:36

There is room for him to reappear.

Speaker 2 1:30:38

Right.

Speaker 1 1:30:39

The whole idea was he's back home. I think it's a very happy ending. I think he appreciates his father. He's going to take advantage of every moment left on earth with this individual. He now recognizes the people in his own life as heroes, meaning Cyril and Nico. They have a wonderful life. I tried to give the warmth of coming home with a little question mark about hmm, is Milos going to remain the home that he's so nostalgic about, or are there other forces on the horizon, as there always will be? But I did. Once my friend said that I'm like absolutely, I've got a romantic in me. I could see and I left room for that too, by the way, subconsciously when he rereads the diary and he says, ooh, it no longer feels like a sickly regression, and then he has the dream. There is room for a very romantic sequel. I will leave it at that.

Speaker 2 1:31:29

Did you see that?

Speaker 1 1:31:31

Or did you write him off? Did you write it?

Speaker 2 1:31:33

off entirely. The idea of coming home. I just I think that's all something that we can just take more time to consider.

Closing Thoughts on Life as Story

Speaker 1 1:31:45

Yeah, I hope I've. I've gotten feedback that it's. It's pretty emotional for people, the coming home idea. All right guys. I hope nobody out there has abandonment issues because we ended our interview rather abruptly due to technical issues, but I think we ended on a good note. I think so much good stuff came up, very satisfying for me to talk about. You know it's been a while since I wrote it but, um, a lot of the initial impetus came back to me and such wonderful questions from shauna, so I'm gonna beg her to come back on.

Speaker 1 1:32:16

We've been conceiving more episodes in the future based off the book Language of the Soul and in the same way that language really we say every week on the show, life is story, meaning, every aspect of life is informed by story in some way. So some concrete ways are obviously the arts and entertainment cinema, literature but the less obvious ways are the propaganda right that all day, every day, we're bombarded with, and that includes advertising. But also learning. We learn primarily through narrative. The didactic doesn't have nearly the impact that narrative has. So there's a significant portion of different chapters in the book focus on that, the mechanics of why we learn, through metaphor, among other things. So anyway, being an educator and an amazing creative. I'm hoping to have Shauna back on and pick her brain about that topic.

Speaker 1 1:33:11

Anyway, thank you so much for listening in. Please do get a hold of the Seeker if you're intrigued. If anything in there captured your imagination, please pick up a copy. It is in print, e-book and now audiobook format, so we'll have the links in the episode description. Thanks again for tuning in and remember life is story and we can get our hands in the clay Individually and collectively. We can write a new story. See you next time you.