Beyond the Veil with Author Angela van Breemen

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In today's thought-provoking episode, we welcome novelist Angela van Breemen to explore where forensics meets the metaphysical, how reincarnation reframes justice, and how storytelling teaches us who we are. In Angela's latest crime novel, Revenge Is Not Enough, a psychic visitation leads to a séance that opens up a decades-old cold case. The investigation exposes an underground baby ring that is part of a much larger human trafficking network, sparking hard questions about human trafficking, gender identity, and our souls' unfinished business.  

Angela van Breemen in 2024 she published Past Life's Revenge, the first book in the David Harris and Emma Jackson Mystery series. Her second book, Revenge is Not Enough, was released on November 4th. Her books are available in ebook, softcover and audio through Amazon.

A poetry book is due out in early 2026.

Angela is a member of the Crime Writers of Canada, Sisters in Crime, and the Writers Union of Canada. In 2024, she launched her debut album, In The Breeze and has three original pieces of music, based on her poetry. She lives in Loretto, Ontario, with her husband, Peter Thomas Pontsa, author of the Inspector William Fox Series.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Hi guys, and welcome to Language of the Soul Podcast. We're very excited, and welcome, Virginia.

SPEAKER_05 0:52

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:53

I think I can speak for you, and I say we're very excited to have a guest back. We love return guests and we don't get them as often as we'd like. But this guest was a pleasure. She's become a very good friend since she appeared first on our podcast to promote her, I think, maybe first novel. We'll ask her about that. But there's a second installment, and um I just finished reading it. I'm living it, I'm submerged in that world. It was like comfort food. It was like returning to a world where I left my heart, and you know, I really bonded with the characters, so it was really awesome to dive back in. We're gonna talk about that novel and hopefully uh much more, a lot more inspiring offshoots, I'm sure. So, in that spirit, I'll go ahead and read her bio. Angela Van Breemen graduated from the University of Guelph in 1982. After a successful business career in 2013, she turned her focus to writing, music, and volunteering at Procyon Wildlife, a wildlife rescue in Ontario, Canada. In 2024, she published Past Life's Revenge. That's the former book that we discussed on the last episode. The first book in the David Harris and Emma Jackson mystery series. Her second book, Revenge Is Not Enough, was released on November 4th. Her books are available in ebook, softcover, and audio through Amazon. A poetry book is due out in early 2026. Angela is a member of the Crime Writers of Canada, Sisters in Crime, and the Writers Union of Canada. In 2024, she launched her debut album, In the Breeze, and has three original pieces of music based on her poetry. She lives in Loretta, Ontario, with her husband Peter Thomas Ponce, author of the Inspector William Fox series. In Angela's own words, my books cover the concepts of spiritualism, karma, and reincarnation, as well as gender identity. Although my books are intended to be entertainment, I feel authors have an obligation to talk about societal issues as a way of creating awareness and understanding of the human condition. Welcome, Angela Van Breemen.

SPEAKER_05 3:03

Thank you so very much for that lovely introduction. And I must say it is so wonderful to be back on the show again with you in Virginia. You couldn't be more welcoming, and thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

Of course.

SPEAKER_05 3:16

Thank you.

Why Storytelling Shapes Culture

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Can't wait to dive in. Um we've been asking a road question of all of our guests, and it kind of evolves. So um maybe roll with the punches, but we do have a couple road questions that are very much in the spirit of our podcast. So before we read the book Jacket Blurb, and then hopefully discuss some of those societal and social issues that were mentioned, um the general question is what do you feel is the traditional role of storytelling in culture?

SPEAKER_05 3:47

It's a wonderful question, and I love listening to your show. I listen regularly to the podcasts, and I love the interpretations that the different authors and guests that you have their opinions and their thoughts on it. But but here's my spin, and it's probably similar to a lot of what folks think, but storytelling has been the way our ancestors learned, and it's how many of us I think still learn today. I can think about when I was in the classroom and you know, in high school and listening to explanations by the teacher, and I found that when I listened and wrote down at the same time, I remembered things so much quicker. So the storytelling is something that I think, because of that oral tradition that's been used over the ages by our ancestors, I think that is why we learn the way we do with storytelling. I mean, it is it's imparted survival skills over the years. And early narrative like folk songs and fables were really a way of teaching important life lessons and skills. But it was also a way of spreading news. And when I think of wandering minstrels, they weren't just entertainment, they were really our first news broadcasters. And they were, yeah, exactly. And they were a valuable source of information up until the invention of the newspaper. They weren't really just town gossips, they actually were filling a very important function in society by disseminating news.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Absolutely. Yeah, man, you deliver. I love that answer because we've never really gotten into those specifics. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 5:28

Yeah.

unknown 5:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:29

And I love the fact that I was saying I love that you brought up the minstrels too, because I I knew that, but I didn't think about it. And I think you're the first guest that has said that, talking about storytelling. But yeah, it's true. You know, like they all wrote different songs about the adventures of people who did things, and so that's how it's spread, like, you know, about the different people and and and these things that they accomplished that were like these great accomplishments.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah, you hinted too. So sorry, you hinted too at um not to put words in your mouth, but I think you hinted that we learn more when, for example, you take your vocabulary. You know, they did this in public school. You take the vocabulary word and you don't just write it in a the form of a sentence, you make that sentence something relevant to your life, something you're you know, passionate about or something that happened recently, and it sticks. So we are wired for metaphor. I think it's fascinating. There's a kind of a conceptual interim that makes things stick. When I learned French, I had to think of associations like la table. Oh, okay, it's feminine, right? So la, and my French instructor said, think of the legs of a table, you know, and it really helps to have a I call it a conceptual interim. So we're kind of wired for metaphor, and we do simply put learn more when there's the symbol is in place. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_05 6:54

Absolutely. I think that's fantastic. And even though the way our messages might change over time, for example, from cave drawings to the wandering minstrels and town criers to today's newspapers, and now the evolution of information and news being spread um through film and TV and the internet. And now we have, which which you just made me think of, we have that aspect where with video games and social media, they now, and even some books, where they have an interactive element to it, so that the person enjoying the story becomes part of the story as well. And I think that's fascinating. And that kind of ties into what you were just describing about about um using words um in sentences and then eventually um finding something new and creative with that. So that's an interesting, I think that's very interesting what you brought up.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Yeah, well, I heard it in what you said. That's that's why it kind of dovetailed off of it. But I also we've had a few guests talk a little bit about this interactive function that you're talking about, right? Visual communication is always interactive. If you spoon feed everything, it's not as mnemonic, they call it, right? If a great logo has you connect dots and it's the sort of whole becomes more than the sum of its parts, if that makes sense, you've engaged and you've interacted. So that is the goal of visual communication. But I would say it's the same for, you know, I'm not about to define beauty or art, but for literature, I think it's gotta be interactive. So you suggest, right, and then maybe the patron connects dots or fills in the gaps between the lines, and uh that's why spoon feeding is kind of a no-no, if that makes sense. Anyway, I think we beat this one to death. Unless you have anything further to say, I have one more rote question for you.

SPEAKER_04 8:51

No, let's go on with the next question.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

Okay, well, it's related. What makes you, Angela Van Breemen, a storyteller?

SPEAKER_05 9:02

Oh, that is such an interesting question. And that is just almost asking what makes me who I am. And and so so it's a really big question that you're asking. Well, I because I can't answer to be fine.

SPEAKER_00 9:18

You have a love of everything we just talked about. You have a love and an appreciation of everything you just said. Anyway, go on.

SPEAKER_05 9:25

Well, yes, that's part of it. But I suppose that for me, storytelling, um, I think it has to have a goal as well. And at its core, storytelling, as we've discussed, hasn't really changed. But I also think that authors have an obligation, um, even with fiction writing, to weave a message into the narrative to help encourage awareness of issues that society faces. And so I feel very passionate about not just telling a story that's that's that's interesting, exciting, that has entertainment value, but I like to weave something in there which also has a commentary, if not a solution, but just creates an awareness of what our society is like, sort of a snapshot of what is happening and and becoming more aware that is this a good thing, is this a bad thing? Is this what we really want as a reader when they read this and think, no, this is something that this is a trend that's happening, maybe we need to pull back or understand? Or people have told me they've read their my books and then said to me, I didn't really know about that, but you made me curious, and I studied it a bit further. Now that I think is the goal of a story storyteller.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 10:42

When that when that when that is accomplished, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

Absolutely. You got me thinking about that too, because you know, I would have said, Well, Gone with the Wind, for example, it's a historical novel. And you can learn a lot about the Civil War by reading it, but it's really just a setting for the internal arc of the character, right? So historical fiction often has a setting that, you know, becomes pathetic fallacy or somehow echoes the themes or supports the themes of the story. But I always come back to but isn't it really about the human condition or the emotions that we all share, this shared humanity that binds us? And I kind of played down the historical context of a lot of stories. But in reading yours, I thought, absolutely, it is a snapshot, as you said, of this moment in time where we are wrestling with things like, you know, non-binary gender identification, and yeah, human trafficking. I'm I don't want to say too much yet, we'll get into that. But I I did think, you know, that in and of itself becomes part of the dialectic. We've had um Ted Young on here. He's a historical fiction, he's a Harvard literature professor. But we talked, what was that term, Virginia? It wasn't just historical fiction, it's the one where those who are colonized tell their stories as a way of preserving their culture. Do you remember that term?

SPEAKER_03 12:06

I don't.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

I I it'll but you know, when you studied great literature in school, part of what you did is talked about the cultural context. So I do think that's how we preserve the lessons learned through the horrors of history, right? Or the triumphs and the accomplishments. Uh, you're absolutely right. It's a snapshot. In the same way a great novel is a snapshot of the psyche of its author, I'm sorry, it's a snapshot of the world too. So I love what you said.

SPEAKER_05 12:39

Yeah, I think it is a snapshot of both those things and a commentary. But what you said is interesting as well about historical context where basically nothing really changes. I mean, the human condition, the the way we view, we we fall in love, we fall out of love, we we we we go through different stages in our lives, um, from being young to to um middle-aged to much older. And every stage that we live in, someone has lived that before. And so I think books also are wonderful insight into that human condition, as we were saying, on what it's like to be um at different stages of your life and what it feels like to be to be heartbroken or to be ecstatic about an accomplishment. And I think that that's what books serve as well. That's what storytelling does too. So you're right, there's a historical context, which is important because those are snapshots into how society thought and felt, as well as the external factors that are going on in in terms of history. And then there's the snapshot which shows us that we still we still live and love and do so many things in the same way. Maybe the trappings are different, but we still are at core are human beings, um with souls that need protecting and nurturing and um and just just loving. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

Yeah, well, it reminds us of our humanity. It reminds us everything does come down to love in some ways. But I think sorry.

SPEAKER_05 14:27

No, I I just said mm-hmm, I agree.

SPEAKER_00 14:30

Yeah, I mean, I think um a couple of our guests have said exactly that that you know, you can read a history book, but until you humanize that history, it doesn't really resonate with your humanity. So Tong Ge said, you know, historical fiction humanizes history. I think Ta um um Ted Young said that as well. So it does stick more. I mean, it's uh not to get too technical, but my book goes into the chemical reasons that things get mapped on your value system or worldview when they're highly emotional. So reading statistics, like that's why history never stuck for me, because I don't understand war in the first place, and history is basically right, the history of war. So I never remember dates or battles or generals or any of that because I didn't have a category for it. But the best teacher I ever had was an art history teacher who would always tell, like the town minstrel, or what did you call it?

SPEAKER_05 15:28

The um the wandering minstrel.

Metaphor, Memory, and Meaning

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Yeah, the wandering minstrel. He would always tell the not just the backstory, but the kind of I don't know, the like it was uh a lot of the his stories about Renaissance artists were like the housewives of the Renaissance, basically. He would always tell the dirty laundry behind the story, and it was much more memorable that way. Anyway, so maybe we could talk about some of these social issues that you've brought to light um by diving into the novel. Do you care to read a blurb just for the listeners that aren't familiar with um Past Life's Revenge? Maybe give us a little background on the whole series, and then maybe read the book jacket, and then we'll start getting a little more specific. Uh, for revenge is not enough, that is.

SPEAKER_05 16:16

Sure, I'd love to. Um, so basically, the premise of the of the series began with the idea of reincarnation. And in my first book, Past Life's Revenge, there is a young man by the name of David Harris. He suffered from really debilitating nightmares his entire life, and he's never been able to get any help with that. He meets a young psychic. Her abilities are still developing, and they are developing more and more during the series. This is how I envision that. But she recommends that he have a past life regression. And during that regression, he learns that he was murdered in his most recent life, and he reincarnated almost immediately. And after a little bit of diligent research, they learned that he had actually been murdered only recently and that his killer is still alive. So then David was faced with this moral dilemma about um, do I accept what's happened and move on with my life? Or knowing the killer is still walking this earth, do I do something about it? And of course, he does something about it and finds the killer of his former self. But when I finished that book, I realized it couldn't possibly be a standalone because there are so many unsolved cases, um, cold cases. And so David and Emma, um, who he's just recently married, they now team up with um their father-in-law, who is a former police officer of the new Elgin Police Service. They team up to form a cold cases team, and they use psychic impressions that Emma receives, that they know full well that it's fine and dandy to say, a psychic to say, oh, I see that he did that, he's the murderer. Well, that's no good. You have to bring in the reality of today's world, which is that you base it on proper forensic investigation. So this is where the series comes in, where I'm trying to marry the uh the paranormal with everyday life, because I think that veil is pretty thin if we were really caring to admit that. I mean, look, what is else but our dream world? Something like this, where the metaphysical is so close to our everyday real world. So that was sort of how I started to go down this path. So revenge is not enough as an extension of that. And um in this next case, um, Emma wakes up from quite a terrible vision where she realizes that someone is is is coming to her for help, and uh this entity is pretty desperate. So maybe this is a good lead-in into reading the blurb. Should I read it now?

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Perfect, yes.

SPEAKER_05 19:17

Okay, good. So this is on the book jacket revenge can't undo what was done. When young when young psychic Emma Jackson experiences a terrifying vision of a teenage girl being attacked, she is shaken to the core. As her husband, David Harris, tries to comfort her, his worry increases when her shattered voice whispers, her name was Maggie. David questions the wisdom of his team of investigators using the paranormal to solve cold cases. Emma and David and Brian, a retired police officer and his wife Laura, have been working together with the new Elgin Police Service to solve cold cases. They learn that Maggie was a young woman who went missing 20 years ago and has moved on to the afterlife. During a powerful seance, she takes over Emma's body and demands the investigative team take on her case to find her children. Except, at 16 years of age, at the time of her disappearance, she had no children. When the team uncovers a sinister baby ring where young women are kidnapped and forced to breed, made to order children for the elite, they are shocked to learn their nemesis, the dark hands of Anubis, is behind the human trafficking. Emma insists on continuing the case, but isn't her sanity and peace of mind worth more than solving a cold case from the beyond? Revenge may not be enough when the cost is way too high.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Wow, I love hearing that. Yeah, especially having just read it. I um I feel like that's a great blurb. You really nailed it, and it definitely intrigues. I want to follow up on that. Well, I could give you, I could just gush about the novel. I I think you know I really love the world and I'm in love with the characters. But one thing that you did mention, and thank you for talking about your inspiration for writing the first book. I that was one of my notes, was like, wow, you were really in touch with the metaphysical world, but also you can nail the really, I don't know, I guess, more pragmatic forensics, the the law enforcement terminology, the legislation. I mean, everything from geography to cuisine, like you're very grounded, and yet that veil between the metaphysical and the quote-unquote, right, everyday life is is almost non-existent when you read this book. Does that make sense? You kind of thin that veil. It's really beautifully done.

SPEAKER_05 22:05

Thank you very much. And and I did remember reading a review on my first book, which said something like this as well. The the reviewer said, I don't really believe in past lives, but reading this book makes me think twice. And that's again going back to that idea of getting people to think, to open their eyes up to new ideas. But thank you very much. And I with respect to the other things that are very grounded. Well, I just do a lot of research, I ask questions. Um, I'm lucky to belong to the crime writers of Canada, and there are police officers on staff, uh, not on staff, but they keep they put themselves on on call to us writers who do not know enough about the forensics world. And and you can ask questions whenever you like, and they are just charming individuals. But mainly I just do a lot of research. So, and and I do that when I'm reading books too. So, for example, if I'm reading something and it doesn't seem right, then I look it up because I want to understand. And so I figure I have to apply that to my own writing as well, so that I can lend that authenticity and have it believable for the reader.

What Makes a Storyteller

SPEAKER_00 23:23

Absolutely. Yeah, it comes across. That's the word I would use. Very authentic. You kind of effortlessly insert the needed exposition, if that makes sense, but you just know the research is there. And I didn't include technology in that. I think your knowledge of forensics and law enforcement and even legislation and is very clear, including Interpol and things like that, but also just technology, like things I wouldn't know about the deep web, but the research is there. Yeah, so but I want to go back to something you said too about kind of bringing issues to light and hopefully intriguing people to maybe research more. Uh, I'm gonna save human trafficking for you know a little bit down the line, because I think that's very much something that you can't just turn a blind eye to it after reading this novel. But I think I want to start with this idea, because we talked about that thin veil between the metaphysical and the physical realm. Tell us about how your understanding of how um psychic impressions are used by law enforcement. I know you cited a couple cases in your prompts about very clear-cut cases where cases were solved. I mean, I know there are many, but maybe you have some examples at the tip of your tongue about cases that were solved using psychics as a resource.

SPEAKER_05 24:40

Well, um not not at the tip of my tongue, but um there was in my Facebook the kid that would be axed or something. Yeah, now that yeah, now that is that is really unbelievable. So this this young man, um not a young man even, he's just uh two or three years old, and he's um he basically knows that he was murdered, and this particular culture, um they believe in it. So there isn't the hurdle that we have in Western society to um to disbelieve anything that a child will say. They believed him and they ended up taking this child to that particular village where he claims he lived as an adult, and he does lead yeah. Right, and exactly, and he does lead, he does lead the the elders to where he was buried, and in fact, there was a birthmark on the back of his head where the axe had actually killed his former self. Now they say usually people don't reincarnate so quickly, usually the the thinking is that it's several hundred years at least. Um, but if there's a really traumatic uh situation that happens um where someone's life is ended so abruptly, this is when so often a soul will reincarnate that quickly, which is what this young child um did, um, because that that need for justice was so strong. And and this is what drives David in the first book as well, this this need to understand what happened and this questioning, except that in David's case, it's in a Western culture that does not that does not believe in this sort of thing generally. There's there's believers, but it's not widely accepted. Whereas in the Golden Heights, where this young young youngster was, there was that belief already, which I think I think makes that veil thinner because of that comfort with that metaphysical, with the supernatural, with the other side, with the beyond compared to this world, to this plane of existence.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Yeah, the resistance certainly doesn't help. But I always find it very validating when you realize something as empirical as law enforcement absolutely is open to it, or it's I think it's becoming more and more uh accepted in this culture. But I I will be honest, when I first read um Past Life's Revenge, that was my first thought. We have a lot of tropes in our head of things we've seen before, and I thought, wow, I guess I've never really thought about how quickly a soul reincarnates. But then it very quickly became clear it's when there's unfinished business. And I would say it's the same with Maggie, you know, she I don't want to give away too much, but I know she's very invested in the well-being of the babies that she had to part with. And so that is those attachments, maybe, are what keep not just souls in limbo before they can move on, right? And again, these are all tropes that you laid it out so beautifully that all the schools of thought, all the spiritual principles I've been exposed to, all the different ways of characterizing the metaphysical world, they all gracefully lined up in a way that was palatable. Does that make sense? Like the idea that um she wasn't just in limbo, but she um I don't know, was sort of it was her attachments that were keeping her here.

SPEAKER_05 28:26

Yes, that's right. Maggie, Maggie doesn't reincarnate in her instance, she is so completely wound up with she's a ball of anguish that she's unable to move on to the other side. And in my book, not to give away too much, I do have spirit guides on the other side who are trying to encourage her to move on. And she is so stuck in what's happened that she simply can't, she just can't do it. She needs to see this unfinished business resolved. And this is why you see the thing is sometimes people say, I saw a ghost. Did they or did they not see a ghost? Um, what I'm going to say now is about sometimes you see a residual memory or energy source. That doesn't mean that that's the soul or the ghost, but other times you will actually see an entity. And so sometimes people, when they go into uh I've I have air quotes now, a haunted house, what they might see is residual memories, an imprint, if you will. But it doesn't necessarily mean that the spirit is there anymore. In Maggie's case, she's still there, like she has not moved on and she can't until things get resolved in a way that is satisfying to her. Because even when we leave these bodies, we still have so much spiritual learning to do, whether that's reincarnating after time and reassessing how we lived our life in this lifetime before we go back. But there's there's there's always more learning until we get to that level of evolution, which becomes more part, which so that you can become part of the universal intelligence or God source or God, whichever way you want to call it. I believe that energy is all the same thing. So as we evolve, we just evolve higher and higher. But in Maggie's case, her stunt, her growth is stunted. She can't do anything until she has these questions taken care of for her as to where are her children.

SPEAKER_00 30:35

Beautiful. Yeah, and it I I guess that's what I meant when you God, source, collective intelligence. I love that it kind of embraces. Or it just resonates. And so you don't start to split hairs about different belief systems. It all just resonates. And uh I do think too it's a metaphor for where we're stuck in our lives, even just within this spiritual journey, right? As physical manifestations, it makes you wonder, hey, where do I need to move on or let go or yeah, resolve some kind of maybe intergener generational trauma or baggage? So it's it's very I think the implications are far reaching. I have a question for you, Virginia. Are you still with us?

SPEAKER_03 31:15

I am with you.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

Because I've read it and I'm just resisting giving my review. I could, but you know I loved it. I think there's so much to talk about. I do want to get to the gender identity thing. But hearing some of this for the first time, Virginia, do you get a sense of A, the superficial plot without giving any spoilers, or B, kind of the themes we're talking about? Does it make sense or do you have any questions about what the hell the book is about?

SPEAKER_03 31:39

Um, I I I'm gonna fall more with B. You know, I definitely see the the threads that are that are being woven. Um, and and I think that the what you guys were both touching on just a second ago, I mean, even though it's within the spirituality side of of things um and and our connectedness to it, it also goes into that intra um relational identity within ourselves. So when we try to make sense of who we are, so not just meaning-making in the external, but the meaning-making internally.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

How we process our experiences and make attached to them, yeah, the narrative that we write.

SPEAKER_03 32:19

And and how and how that is attached to who we are as an identity, both in the physical form and then of course spiritually.

Series Origin: Reincarnation & Justice

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Yeah, I guess Angela, I I think I would ask you, do we have a spiritual essence that is either tainted or maybe mind and ego, you know, in this life tend to sometimes create some distance between our core essence or our spiritual selves. Is that something you think about much in your writing?

SPEAKER_05 32:51

Um, I don't know if I've imparted that in my writing necessarily, but it is something that I do think about. And um I used to read a lot of Edgar Casey. I mean, I grew up reading Edgar Casey because of the kind of upbringing upbringing that I had. Um and I believe that it was Edgar Casey he was mentioning about soul groups, and I mean I believe in them. So we do reincarnate as soul groups, and sometimes you'll just see someone and you'll just know you knew them before, and they become part of your life very easily.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 33:30

And and even your parenting, they may not have been your parents in a previous life, but they could have been a sibling. I believe that people do um reincarnate together as soul groups in order to learn lessons that maybe were not completed the previous life. So I really believe that. But one of the lessons that's the hardest for young parents is when they lose a child. And Edgar Casey explained that basically when a child is lost that early, it's because they were there to provide a role for the parents to learn how to deal with this sorrow, this grief, this excruciating pain. And so that was a lesson that he was on this earth to provide for his parents in this particular case. For him to stay longer in the lifetime, would then perhaps have his soul's development arrested or even regressed, because then this particular individual would become exposed to factors and life experiences that that that that was not meant to be part of their life lessons or their, I should say, spiritual lessons. And so this was an explanation that was given to me very early on, and I embraced it. So when you mentioned about how um our spiritual awareness can get tattered, yes, I think it can. And I and I know that's even in my case that I'm probably not as I probably have a lot of ragged edges at this stage of my life than I did when I was 25. But I've lived but I've lived a lot of life in between in those 40 years, and I've and I've learned and I've weathered it. But is my psyche as as whole or is it as shining bright? I hope so. Perhaps I'm wrong thinking it's dimmer because when I get stimulated with wonderful conversations with you and Virginia, then I think no, I I'm still me and my light shines. But there's other times I think that maybe all of us as humans, we we feel a little dimmer, we feel a little diminished. And so that's the time to then get to the meditation and start again, get into nature and just reclaim so that those those tattered feelings can sort of ease and be healed again.

SPEAKER_00 36:12

Beautiful. Yeah, I know, Virginia, you speaking of soul groups, you have that feeling with your mother, right? That there's an agreement. That's a term I've heard a lot too, that you have not just maybe baggage or spiritual lessons to learn, uh, apparently, right? Spiritual lessons recur until you uh maybe resolve them. But you know, just this idea that you have an agreement with certain other souls, and uh sometimes you just can't leave the house without running into them until you figure it out. But I guess I'll clarify a little bit. When I said we might have a core essence, then mind and ego sometimes just cloud our view of who we fundamentally are, right? Our source. Um that's kind of what I meant. I didn't mean so much disillusionment or jadedness or all those things that come with life, you know. But I think you're absolutely right. Maybe that is the trick is renewing regularly. I think we could all look and go, okay, man, I wouldn't trade what I've learned for the world, and I am wiser, actually, you know, and I it wasn't wasted time. I am a better version of myself than I was when I was young. We hope for that, right? But then sometimes you feel like, ugh, but yeah, I took on this patina, or you know, uh these goggles are a little bit um foggy now. And so I think it's a daily renewal, right? Where you count the blessings for the spiritual lessons you've learned and the the growth that you've been lucky enough to you know um experience, while I don't know, maybe managing the jadedness. I think that's all of us. Every morning we have to renew.

SPEAKER_05 37:51

I think you're right. And and um and what you'd asked before, I do think that's part of it. The the the way we look at our our our our persona that we put to the world and what is deep inside of us, I guess that can be hidden and a little bit veiled sometimes to others. But when that when that veil is lifted, and if we all took more time to lift that veil, maybe I'm sounding very altruistic now and naive, but wouldn't that be nice? Because then we could just look into someone's eyes and say, take away all the trappings, take away all the culture, just I want to know who you are. I want to know, I want to see the goodness in you, and I want to celebrate that. Whereas, yes, we do conduct our lives in a way of guarded carefulness in not exposing too much. And I wonder sometimes if that innocence of exposing more, it's a brave thing to do, mind you, would would perhaps create more peace and harmony than turning our heads away and hiding who we really are.

Jacket Blurb: Revenge Is Not Enough

SPEAKER_00 39:06

Yeah, well, I think that you that is the answer. It sounds very sort of kumbaya and very um naive to say. But if we all dropped these veils of identity and labels and I just call it ego, mind and ego. All the constructs of the mind actually keep you know, when you meditate and you strip away m mental chatter and sort of linear attachments, you do tune in to who you fundamentally are. And if we all had a practice, you know, we kind of live in a godless world right now. I don't want to sound moralistic and it has nothing to do with religion, but I think if we all just meditate, meditate prayer, meditation, whatever gets you there, the world would be a better place through the ripple effect. It's very naive and maybe it's unattainable, but that is the answer. I'm not the first one to say that. I mean, wasn't it Gandhi who said be the change you wish to see in the world? And um it starts within. I mean, Michael Jackson said, start with the man in the mirror. Are we talking about the sure yes?

SPEAKER_02 40:15

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

Yeah, well, your book certainly makes us think about all of this. And you know, I guess I was thinking of Maggie. You know, we do have this trope like, oh, once you return to the spirit world, all the mind and ego goes away, and you're you see it, you know, see you see everything for what it is, you see the ultimate truth or the objective truth or the universal reality, and it's like, nope, she's still got angst, she's still got those attachments, but then you you start to realize, ooh, I think I I don't know, I notice people look for airtight ideologies, you know. Whenever you start to talk about spiritual matters, people look to disprove it. They want something really airtight, and they always have the but but but what about the injustices? What about hunger? What about war? And they want everything explained. And sometimes I think, well, there's a lot of forces in the universe that coexist. It's mind and ego that makes everybody want to have a black and white binary system, yeah, rational system to explain everything. Life is messy, right? And a lot of principles coexist. Does that make sense to you?

SPEAKER_05 41:22

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. There there are only different shades of of uh of uh I don't want to say shades of gray, oh good heavens, but there are different shades, definitely, um, to the realities, and there's definitely no cut and dry answer to anything. And the more I learn, the more I know that there are no clear answers. And but I do think that certain people they need that, they need that definitive answer. This is it, and there is no other alternative. That's that's the only way. And it life isn't like that, it's never been like that. I don't think it's meant to be that way. I think it's meant to be diverse and colorful and full of individuality. And um, yeah, really, I I think the best the best way to to to put it is that there are no cut and dry answers.

SPEAKER_03 42:26

Well, I I I love that. Um, so here's I'm gonna throw something out at you guys. So I've been working on something um in my off time. Um and so here's here's kind of the thought behind the idea of what I'm working on. That our sense of self self is not static or singular, but constructed and reconstructed through the interplay between our thoughts, our relationships, and our lived experiences. Identity isn't something we simply have, it's something we continuously create in conversation, both internally, spiritually, and externally.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Mm-hmm. Yeah, we're crafting it all day. Right, we've got our hands in the clay all day, every day, right? And conversations like this make you sift through and maybe um I don't know, come to some conclusions about your beliefs and your um that's why I love this podcast, because it you kind of take stock and reassess, and uh I don't know. I think it's all we're all works in progress, aren't we? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 43:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Yeah, I guess I was when I said people want airtight solutions, if that makes sense. I just feel like there is institutionalized religion for very good reason has gone out with the bathwater. So they're I call them staunch empiricists, and I've had a lot of them in my life. Sometimes they're my roommate, right? And guys might be more that way a little bit, like linear and logical, and kind of dismiss anything if it's there's no empirical evidence, and uh, we're we're socialized to be that way. So if anything's too frou-frou or out there or doesn't, you know, and I I always say, well, the scientific method is just consensus in the end, it's it's peer approval. That's all. And so what we know is the tip of an iceberg. So I'm the one guy who will defend things that seem untenable, right, until you, on further examination, take the time to reconcile seemingly opposing thought forms. But anyway, I have a had I've had a lot of roommates that will just gently leave a magazine article open on the table about the god gene kind of dismissing anyone, you know, with Bowie, come on now, my dog is licking my foot. Um they'll just gently try to nudge me back into a more linear mindset because I seem wacky to them. And um, so that's kind of my entire life. So I feel like sometimes you just gotta reconcile the terminology, the semantics, the perspective, the flux, and you know, science and faith or religion are often saying the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 45:00

Yes, they are. They are definitely, and Virginia, I want to compliment you on what you just read. I thought that was beautiful, and I thought it was very relevant to how we are constantly evolving, absolutely beautifully put. And with respect to the you're welcome and respect to the to the God comment, I I think that it's unfortunate that we don't recognize that this energy, this this universal intelligence, which is how I always think of it, it's really all the same thing. And it's really unfortunate that some people will say, well, this is the only way, this is my God, and that's my God over there. But honestly, it's all energy, it's all it's all the same force. And if it's used for good, then it is the most wonderful thing um that we should obtain or should try to attain. So yeah, there is only one God, one energy.

SPEAKER_00 46:01

Yeah, and I do think quantum mechanics is catching up, you know, science is catching up. They teach intelligent design now in public schools for a reason. It's kind of not debatable. But I think we are real quick to put a white beard on them and put them up on a cloud and just fall victim to a lot of tropes instead of kind of seeing the common ground, you know, between these different schools of thought. Anyway, thanks for indulging me on that. I hope that wasn't too much of a tangent. I wonder if you could tell us, you know, with regard to human trafficking, which is obviously not just a big plot point, but almost a thematic element in the book, and then non-binary um gender identity. What do you hope readers walk away with?

Craft, Research, and Authenticity

SPEAKER_05 46:46

Well, I was quite shocked. I mean, when I wrote the story, and I didn't even realize I was doing this with both books, but I realized now that I had a theme going about the exploitation of children. Because in the first book, Past Life's Revenge, uh, Jasman Baker, who is a Dutch girl who is who was kidnapped from a prestigious gifted school for children, and she's recruited to become and uh become a very high-end assassin. So she's sort of the antagonist. She isn't even really, she's really the tool that the that the antagonist uses in my first book.

SPEAKER_00 47:27

Wait, is that Jazz?

SPEAKER_05 47:28

And I didn't that's Jazzy. That's Jasmine Bacher, Jazzy. And so I didn't realize that that theme would continue on with the Dark Hands of Anubis, which is sort of representative of any kind of uh bad um type of evil, I'm sorry, evil type of organization that works in the background. But it sort of began to tie in that I would use them as the kind of organization which is exploiting children. And so somehow it evolved. I don't even know why the storyline um actually started to evolve this way with Maggie and the missing children, but then it started me thinking, what if you had somebody missing that you didn't even know was missing? Which is the point of these children that are being born to Maggie sort of as um uh pre-orders by the elite. You don't even know these children were ever missing because they're not on record. And but then as I started to develop from delve into this, which was just an idea for the story, and started looking into more of human trafficking, I was really dismayed that it's probably around us more than we realize. Right. And even workers, it doesn't mean that it's just a sexual exploitation, which seems to be talking of tropes, seems to be the thing that we see an awful lot of in films, especially, you know, human trafficking and these poor girls are headed away to a life of terrible slavery, that it isn't just that. I mean, it's workers of any any gender who might just be household staff in someone's mansion or or whatever, or or laboring in the fields. And so it's it's it's really a serious situation that I think we don't understand the depth and the scope of it. I don't even think I do, even with the research that I've done for the book. And I think it's dismaying, and I think that we need to really open our eyes to these things um a little bit more clearly than we have. So that was the point of delving as deeply as I did with it in the story.

SPEAKER_00 49:47

Yeah, it's it's sorry, Virginia. Yeah, I had that very much that exact experience. Like, wow, this is more prevalent than I've really allowed myself to think about. And especially in this country, we're very much protected from it. Again, forced labor and the sex trade. And uh yeah, but it's it's really prevalent and deserves attention. Go ahead, Virginia. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_03 50:09

Oh, I was gonna say, so um and I know the founder of it has been discriminated, but it's still, I think the organization itself is still alive, but it was called Operation Underground Railroad, if it's not anymore. Um, and they they delve into um exploitation of children. Uh and usually, yeah, the sex part comes in. But what was interesting when they were first getting going, um, and I don't know if they're Utah-based specifically. I just know in Utah a lot of people know who they are. Um what I learned during my um schooling was like like you brought up, Angela, it wasn't just, you know, the um exploitation in in the sexual rings. You also had a lot of um people disappearing, especially like uh adolescents or older um age children that could be trained to basically become foot soldiers in a lot of um the different wars that are going on throughout the world as well, which I think people forget about. Um, and I know I have a friend who adopted a child, I think out of Sierra Leone, um who as a child was recruited um to be a child soldier. So yeah, it's it's really sad, you know, that sometimes we kind of do walk around with our blinders on, especially here in the United States, and not realize how prevalent it really is, nation, you know, nation and worldwide.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

Yeah, there's a lot of wars going on and they need a lot of bodies. So they sadly there are a lot of countries where they just stick guns in their hands at a very young age, and even you know, and then we forget about the stories. Remember all those girls that were kidnapped from the school in Africa? And then once the news story passes, nobody really knows what became of them. I think it's happening all day, every day. But I've had to say several go ahead.

SPEAKER_05 52:13

Oh, I was going to just add to that. Um, and something that's quite in the news right now is the Ukrainian children who have been stolen, and they are being brainwashed to think along the lines of of the Russian viewpoint as opposed to, and yet they're Ukrainian children. So, yes, it it this exploitation happens constantly right under our noses.

SPEAKER_00 52:37

Yeah, I do love how you weaved in the black, the sorry, dark hands of Anubis, and uh so many things tie the novels together. But I meant to say a moment ago too, it was kind of uh you kind of supported this idea that we do have spiritual agreements and there are soul groups that reincarnate together. I just found it fascinating all the connections between the characters, they seemed drawn to one another. I won't go into detail, but even Cheryl and Sarah, was it? No, sure.

SPEAKER_05 53:07

The other two twins, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:10

Yeah, the two things different connections, and yet wow, they all came together ultimately. And Simone and But I guess that leads me to Megan. So you really beautifully brought back some characters from the first novel, and then again the Dark Hands of Anubis. I liked that the wider we went with this ring, we realized, ooh, that's not you know, we're we're not to the top yet until we get to Nicaragua. So everything has tentacles, if that makes sense. What made you choose to bring Megan back? And uh tell us a little bit about what she represents in terms of again the non-binary issue.

Psychics, Law, and Thin Veils

SPEAKER_05 53:48

Okay, Megan. Megan basically told me, I know this sounds silly, but she stepped forward and she said, I want to be in your next book and I want a major role. And that is literally, seriously, that is literally how it happened in my mind. Like Megan said, I want more. And you need to talk about you need to talk. You I did touch on her binary uh choices in the first book, and I I don't know why. Megan said, I want more, and so that's why I did it. And talking again about how I think authors have an obligation to bring up certain issues. What's really been troubling me lately is this discussion about gender identity and the choice that people should have for themselves once they're of age. I know it's a complicated issue, but but in Megan's case, um Megan identifies as non-binary. The pronouns are they and their. Um, and I don't know, it was just important to have her represented. And I thought about it from a reincarnation point of view, because you see, I think that if we've lived enough lives as man and as a woman, I think that the more we've done that, the more awareness, the more cognizant we become of both perspectives when we are in our earthly bodies. And I think that someone who identifies is non-gender that way is because they are more advanced on those levels of having an understanding. So, for example, I do touch, uh I have a conversation early on in the book between David and Emma, and Emma is very frustrated uh with Megan's father, who is having a lot of trouble uh understanding the gender choice that Megan has made. Basically, um, I think it's because of the male and female aspects being really strong within their souls, and I think that's one of the reasons. And and I think that because of reincarnation, we need to understand that that is where it's coming from. But there there are so many instances throughout history where where this is normal, and and I think it's Western society that seems to spin this as something unusual. And my thinking is wouldn't it be nice if, like, like I said earlier, you just take the veil away, you see the person's eyes, you know they're good, you see who they are, and that should be all that's that should be enough. But there is um in Oaxaca, Mexico, there is uh people called the Zapotec, and they revere and honor what are individuals who are called muxas. And these are individuals who are born male, but they live as women and they're celebrated and honored, and they are even recognized by the local Catholic Church, which I think is so progressive and amazing. And yet in India you have um people called hijras, and I hope I've pronounced it properly, they hold spiritual roles, and in Indonesia, the Kalalai and the Kalabai and the Bisu represent diverse gender expressions, and the Bisu are seen as mediators between the physical and the divine. So these ideas are not they're foreign to Western culture, but they're not new ideas. And so another example is the Madagascar, Secrata, the Philippines, the Pakla, and we even in North America have our indigenous two-spirit peoples. So this is part of what I wanted to convey in the book with this conversation that Emma and David have, that it's not a new thing. And it's my fervent hope that we put away all our discussions on either side of what's right and what's wrong, and just see people as who as for who they are, and just forget about accept the choices and forget about trying to say this is the only way, going back to if everything's cut and dry. Well, life is not cut and dry.

SPEAKER_00 58:23

Well, to also what I hear in that is we need to broaden our perspective. So as a member, I just think there's a lot to unpack here, and I don't want to it could take several episodes, right? It's a lot to unpack here. But as a member of the LGBTQ community, you know, and I'm 57 now, Virginia, is that right? Sorry. I seriously don't know sometimes. Um no, 57 in November, I think. Anyway, you know, I've been paying attention and things change, but the bottom line is it is a very Western European Judeo-Christian mindset to have these judgments and these prejudices, right? Even just the idea of being gay existed in many forms. It's been around since the dawn of time, you know what I mean? And history is not what it seems. It's been tolerated and embraced to varying degrees throughout history, but we tend to think, like the Marlborough man in this country, we're only 200 years old, right? Nobody thinks back to, ooh, Enfray Ramon during, you know, the Dark Ages and the Renaissance. Same-sex marriage existed, it just had a different name. And so I think we need to broaden our perspective and realize how recent and how backwards some of our mindsets are. And that includes the non-binary conversation, right? Um I also and it is complicated for me because sometimes when I look at indigenous cultures that haven't been colonized and what their relationship is with anything non-binary, including somebody that doesn't identify as male or female, I think they're still stuck in a comfortable role. So everybody's got to be comfortable. So we create these niches, and I think that's we tend to romanticize these cultures that don't discriminate, but sadly they still have uh limitations, if that makes sense. And I don't I won't go too into that. So I think we're still growing. We're still, I don't think anyone's nailed it yet. I think we're all still growing, and it's dangerous to maybe romanticize some of these indigenous cultures and their approach to it, because in some ways there's still novelties, and there's not just complete freedom. Uh I will say, as a gay man, again, long before it was okay, people would. Say, oh no, everyone should just love whom they choose to love. And I'm sitting here going, okay, but the mainstream doesn't even grasp yet that there's a genetic component and it's not a choice. Like we're not there yet. We're not there yet in terms of idealism. The public needs to really get this. So I did think it was interesting you used the word choice. Tell me about that gender identity choice.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:08

I think that what I'm I'm speaking of is when uh when someone decides to transform their bodies. When I think that, yeah, I'm referring choice with respect to that specifically. Because I think that you know who you are quite uh quite early on. But there are cases now where where where young people before the age of 18 have made a decision to change their bodies and now they're sorry, they did there was a sad story about a young girl who who transitioned completely to a young man. And the reason why she did was because she was being sexually abused, and she thought that if she took on the persona of a male, she would be less vulnerable to those abuses. So what I mean by choice is specifically in those cases, because you're right genetically, you are born as you are, and so that's fine. I understand that, but when a choice is made and perhaps um people have not helped guide or make sure that all the facts are looked at, then I think that's where where some thinking might be involved in being more careful. So that's what I mean by choice when it comes to um someone who is going to make a a complete change physically. Right. Um does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:46

Oh, it does, and it's so complicated, in just my opinion. I think it's very complicated, and we're learning every day, and we need to trust the science, you know, but social policy is changing every day on this, and I think it's very complicated. So I I just traditionally have said, you know, I think we just need to embrace all the different threads of humanity and the different colors, and um I don't have that much in common with a non-binary individual or a trans individual, but you know what? We all, all marginalized groups need to band together and fight prejudice. So I I've always allied myself with the trans community and thought, thank God I don't have a kid, right? In Virginia, you can speak to this. Thank God I don't have a child with gender dysmorphia. I don't know how I would deal with it. I think it's, you know, all of our laws, including medical professionals who are willing to give gender-affirming care or a surgery of some kind, that's still not a right. It's a privilege, do you know? And so there's just so many tentacles to this. But the bottom line is I'm with you in that there is a spiritual component, and that's why I questioned the word choice. But I get it how you explained it.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:58

Yeah, but I do think that's what I meant. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:01

But the public, they're so far. We got we gotta really accelerate this conversation. I I saw a meme the other day on social, and I really didn't develop any opinions for this episode, but I happened to see a meme a couple days ago that said something like, you know, we all learned that yes, biology dictates our sex. Then a little bit later, we learned that, oh, but sexual identity is way more complex than that, right? And it includes nature and nurture and blah blah blah. And then we learned that gender identity is even more complex. And so, yes, the right gets really hung up on what you said, the examples where there are other psychological logical issues at play, like protecting oneself from being raped, like that that's just called the human psyche. And so we like to point to the ones where there are other psychological issues going on. But I think anyway, the meme went on to say so. Clearly, those who aren't grasping it are stuck in third grade. You know, like if you didn't learn that sexual sexual identity is complex, and then beyond that, gender identity is even more complex, well, then you stopped thinking in third grade. I didn't say it very well, but I agreed with it.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:17

I think I think I think you did say it quite well, and I and I think that's what the trouble is, that uh there isn't that open-mindedness and kindness and willing to accept to accept people for whoever they are. Like I said before, take away that veil and see people for who they are inside. Isn't that what matters? I mean, isn't that what matters? If I look at you and I look into your eyes and I look into someone else's eyes, and I see a good person there, then the rest doesn't matter. What matters is what you can do out of for for good for yourself and for good for the world. That's what matters.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:01

Virginia, I know.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:02

Oh, I'm here. I was I was listening.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:04

No, I just know you have something to do.

Souls, Attachments, and Moving On

SPEAKER_03 1:06:07

Well, there's a few things. So I want to go back to when when you were first talking, I could just, you know, kind of talking about our socialization and just kind of like, you know, you guys both brought up like just Western culture in general. I think one thing when it comes to the open open-mindedness and kind of, and I can only speak to the US, obviously, um, but I was just thinking about maybe it's just because the holidays are coming up, maybe it's because I've been watching uh movies with my kids lately around holidays. Um but uh I mean, our first colonists, a lot of them, I mean, they came here because of religious persecution and they were Puritans. And I say that because um it was a very black and white thought process, because that's the whole point of why they were called Puritans, right? Um and so I think that we that we forget that two things can be true at the same time. Like, yes, a lot of the people who first came to the Americas came with a very Christian ideology of what right and wrong was, a very pure ideology in their mind of what right and wrong is, but it fundamentally was because of persecution for the way they believed, which is really what was a concept of the Americas. And so, yes, Christianity was start, you know, came here and was the the people who started the colonization, but it was because of persecution.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:43

You're saying their their puritanical principles, they dug their heels in because of the persecution and they became more puritanical.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:51

I I I think I I think what happens is when we look at our history, we always go, oh, well, it's because you know, remember, Christians were the you know, it we were founded on Christianity. Yes, that's true, but they came here because of persecution. It was because they wanted a place to freely practice.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:09

But which is why we need we need to do an episode on this because Christian nationalists will tell a very different narrative. That they're two completely opposing narratives. One is that we came here to escape religious per persecution, and the other is we came here so we could have a single religion and persecute everybody else who thought differently. They're complete opposite.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:34

Right. And that's what I'm saying. But I think what what I'm saying is a lot of times I think what happens here in Western culture is we forget two things can be true at the same time. And that's what I'm saying. Like they came here because of persecution and they were Christian. And so it's so so and what I was going with that is is the open-mindedness needs to be is the persecution aspect was really the driving force. That was the root force. The other part is true as well. But that's why people and that's why people still come here, right? Isn't that the whole point of like what the United States, that's why I said when I speak to the United States, what the United States is about is you're supposed to be able to come here to to live your life and to, you know, have those freedoms that we were all innately, you know, given. And so um, so I was just thinking about that when you're saying that. And then I was thinking about the whole um choice conversation. And when you're asking Angela about, you know, when you say choice, what do you mean by that is it goes back to, and I know we've talked about this before, Nick, um, how words matter and how we use words matter. And when we start mincing words and changing definitions, that's where confusion comes in.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:44

Right. Yeah, exactly. The power of words, and it's they can be propaganda, right? Despite our best efforts. But I will clarify, you're probably so bored with our American baggage. I'm so sorry. By the way, to our listeners, our guest is Canadian, so you shouldn't have to listen to any of this. But yeah, I think I think we have backlash. So you're right, we have completely opposing narratives in this country, but it's because there's kind of this backlash sometimes when we, you know, the pendulum swings too far in one direction or the other. But I just want to really nail the the only reason I wanted to ask about choice was because, again, you know, in the 80s and the 90s, we've had a real slow learning curve in this country, literally, and AIDS, for good or bad, really pushed things along. It actually turned out to forge more tolerance. Despite all the judgments early on, it brought everything into the spotlight, and we had to figure that shit out, if you know what I mean. But it was a slow, like uh decades of talk shows, for example, where you finally got, or I guess, people that don't get out much. Now New York and LA, there's a lot of exposure. But I'm sorry, in a cornfield in Iowa, you may never have seen a homo in his real um habitat. Do you know what I mean? Like just living his or her life and loving, and so I think it was a slow um normalization through like talk shows that kind of put everything under a microscope. But anyway, in all of that, it at one point a lot of the judgment became permissible, and a lot of the persecution and prejudice became very much permissible, and a climate was created because words like you said, words like choice were used, and words like lifestyle were used. And people like me were like, no, no, no, the public needs to understand there's a biological component, it's not a choice, and it's not a thing lifestyle. It was really important. Now, again, 20, 20, 25 years later, I'm a little more with everybody else. Like, let's and like you were saying, Angela, unless you're an axe murderer, let's just pick our battles here. You know, if you're a decent person and you're not breaking any laws, love whoever you want to love. So a little more idealistic now, but I also think the public still has a lot to learn.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:02

Yes, I I think that they do have an awful lot to learn. Um, I thought, Virginia, that was a very interesting observation about when when the Puritans came to the US, but we are your cousins in Canada. And so a lot of the things a lot of the things that you face are still the same things that we face. So people come to our country too, because my parents did. My my parents came from the Netherlands after World War II. It was a safer place to come. There were more opportunities here in Canada than there were in the Netherlands at that time. Europe had to rebuild itself. Um, my parents lived through World War II, and even my father, he ended up being in a concentration camp for the last six months because he was delivering messages for the underground. So there's they they had they saw a lot. They were young when they came here, but they had already seen so much. So Canada was a haven. Canada was a place to escape to. And so I I think traditionally North America has been a place, um a safe haven. And um, I think Canada continues to be a safe haven, maybe um a little too indiscriminate with some of our decisions on who comes in with respect to terrorists who come in under the guise of being something else. But that happens in the US too, I'm sure. And so we face really many of the same problems um on both sides of the border when it comes to that. So don't fear that what you said was not irrelevant for me because it is it is relevant for both sides of the border, um, this particular issue. But I I like the idea that that Virginia raised about about the um about escaping somewhere safe, uh evading persecution, and then on the flip side of it, that other duality in the truth, where they became the persecutors as well. So it is a fascinating, very fascinating. You're gonna have me thinking about this a lot, Virginia.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:20

Well, I think there's my point was there's a lot of propaganda out there because the Christian nationalists have everything worked out. You know, they've got a really great case they're making, but you gotta really examine the words, like we said, the words that are being used, because both things can be true, you know? But it was the intention they try to say our founding fathers had, and we speculate about their intention. Anyway, I didn't mean to go too much into that, but I will say, Angela, we do share so much. Our national identities do share a lot, and that to bring it back to the novel, I very much had that experience reading your novel, like, oh my god, potato chips? Do they have potato chips in Canada? Like you had a barbecue at the end, and I'm like, it is no different. And some of the foods you describe, and you know, kind of stop. I don't know if they stopped off at a convenience store and picked something up, and I just thought, it's so similar. And uh I I will claim ignorance. I know very little about Canada, any province. But reading it, I thought this really could be set anywhere.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:21

Well, I did do that deliberately, and also one of the things you're going to find is amusing, and it's very hard for us to do, um, is we um we in we are taught the British form of spelling in Canada.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:38

And so when we're writing novels, uh fellow novelists um say, but you need to adopt the American spelling. And that is so hard sometimes because we spell we spell color, C-O-L-O-U-R, and um, of course, there's no U in the way you spell color. And so I uh I I work very hard on making sure that I adopt something that will be comfortable for our American readers and and the readers in Canada we don't even notice, right? Because we know what it means and we just go on. So, but but it is kind of funny. So I had a review done of my new book, and I tried so hard to make sure that I had only US spelling in there, and of course the reviewer noticed the one word spelled anyway, and it was just so funny because um, you know, you really try I do try my best, honestly.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:42

That's so funny, anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:43

I didn't catch anything, I'm sure you've you've had editors, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:47

And um, yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:49

Yeah, absolutely.

Human Trafficking: Scope and Shock

SPEAKER_05 1:16:51

We use the Chicago manual style, so it's fine, it it works. But it is kind of amusing how hard we try, and yet there's still I fixed it since, and our editor, who's Canadian, so of course he's going to not sometimes see it as well. Um, but uh that's that's kind is kind of funny, but our cultures are so similar. I mean, we watch the same American TV shows. I mean, uh all of it is so incredibly similar. Although I must say that we do watch a few British um crime series as well. But so we get we get actually in our country, we probably get exposed to to a lot of both culture, which is which is a good thing. And we always are, I mean, we're your smaller cousins, obviously, in population size. And so it most Canadians are generally quite interested in what happens on the other side of the border for us. It's it's interesting and we sympathize when we see things that aren't going the way we think they should be going, and that's all I'll say. But um, we we're we have a friendly disposition, although a lot of us have stopped going because of certain things to the US, but we still we still have an affinity and we do care because you're you're our cousins, right? That's the way we look at it.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:12

So thanks for not giving up on us. I I do see a lot of stick. I see a lot of a lot of generosity and a lot of kindness. I I yeah, you can give up on us at any time. But you know, our international relationships matter and um our trade agreements matter, right? But uh yeah, we gotta work it. Don't worry, it'll it'll things the tide's gonna turn, I promise. There's gonna be a blue wave, I promise.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:40

Everything as we say swings. Um, I Nick, you brought up a really great point when you're talking about the book, um, to bring it back to around the story, um, how you talked about you know like the barbecue at the end and like you know, do you guys have potato chips in in Canada? And I think that's where story's important is because especially now, and I know we talked a little bit about this at our when we did our nostalgia um episode, how we can kind of from like when we were all growing up as kids, you know, uh like you said, like you know, we all watched, you know, up in Canada, we watched a lot of the a lot of our actors are actually from Canada too down here in the US.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:17

Um I'd rather read Ryan Ryan Reynolds. Yeah, you can listen to an actor that you know is Canadian, but there's other than being really nice, that's the stereotype, right? Like really nice, there's no clue until they say, Oh, I took the trash out.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:32

And oh and you about about dissent in the book. Yeah, oh to the book.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:37

Yes, yeah. But what about but what else can we say about but what else can I say about it? Like you, I mean you even mentioned it just now, Andal, as well. Like, you know, we watch the same shows as you go, well, I guess we watch them too from you know, from the UK, you know, some British shows, you know, that are from out there. And I think that's that's the thing, like, you know, because we are older, the three of us, um, where we didn't have social media when we were, you know, 12 years old. And but now we can go into our little confirmation bias bubbles because the algorithms will help, you know, build that bubble. We can go down our the you know, very specific niche rabbit holes that interest you know, our ideologies. And I think when when we read books, go to the movies, listen to music, that's when we re-broaden ourselves and realize, oh my gosh. And then like if you were interested, like who, you know, who wrote this or who, you know, who who's the band that sang this or singer, you know, um, where was this movie made? Or, you know, tell me more about the writer, you know, the screenwriter and the director and the producers. And you start kind of looking at those things, you start realizing, oh, I didn't realize that it wasn't, you know, my little confirmation bias bubble. This is, you know, from somewhere else. And and then the stories themselves, the songs themselves, you know, we're stepping into other cultures and realizing they're not dissimilar. That's that's when we start realizing that human connection that we all have. And I think that's the important thing. And I and I think when you said that, Dick, that's what went through my mind about you know, the whole like, and there's a barbecue thing with the potato chips. Because I was going, I think sometimes we forget, you know, like I know like over in Britain they say chips versus potato, right, right. You know, versus potato chips, um, and a cookie. I forget what a cookie, a cookie's a biscuit. But I mean, the point is, is we eat not two dissimilar things in some cases.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:26

I would think a little facetious. The barbecue just is so American. I mean, but Angela, I know you have something to say, but I I think what you're hitting on quickly, and then Angela, I'll invite you in. But um, it seems like you're kind of hitting on, yes, the world is a smaller place, but because of the algorithm, right, it's gen becomes generic and homogenized, even just within this country. I went to New York a lot in the early 90s. Then I went more recently for a job at Blue Sky Animation, and I swear that's when Chipotle was kind of invented. Remember Chipotle? And I was like, oh my god, I'm in New York, but like where are the Dominic's? There was literally a pizza place called Nick, Nikki and Tony's. That's my brother and me, Nikki and Tony's, and they're yelling at each other in the back and throwing pots and pans around the restaurant. That's what I want from New York. I'm sorry. And now I've got pottery barn in Chipotle. So everything's just kind of homogenous. And even like the gay bars, you could go to a gritty pool, right up pool hall in Soho, and uh there's dudes in leather and like smoke, it's still okay to smoke inside, and you go now and just everything's mixed and everything's been gentrified, and you know, they cleaned up Times Square and no more prostitutes, but uh you kind of want the local color. So I think there that the danger of the world being a smaller place through social media and technology is you do lose the local color. I love a little I saw a meme the other day, let's bring back New Yorkers with let's bring back kids with New York accents. And they showed like these little seven-year-olds talking like this. That is a thing of the past. Am I making sense? I'm just nostalgic about local color.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:10

I I agree. I think and and that's that's what's what's so amazing about story is you know, in its full-fledged form, is it helps bring that color, it helps bring in those different cultures, it helps us walk in those other shoes versus staying in our own little isolation bubble.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:28

Right. You got you gotta crack a book. So, Angela, did that make sense? I thought it was a little tr sad and tragic that you had to change the spellings, but it kind of is what it is. Do you feel like it's a compromise in some way?

SPEAKER_05 1:23:42

I accept it because I'm I look at it from a logical point of view that more American readers will read my book than Canadian readers will. Um, and even the way Amazon stacks things. So, for example, I have free promo codes for my uh audiobook, which I successfully completed for the first book, Past Life's Revenge. And um, I was so excited to do that and excited because they told me that I would have promo codes to give to um potential listeners, and lo and behold, the promo codes is 25 for the US and 25 for the UK. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:23

That's what I got. Can I access can Canadians access Amazon US, not Canada?

SPEAKER_05 1:24:32

Can they buy the book, but they can't get a free promo code.

unknown 1:24:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:38

There's a few, a few originally that might have had the Amazon.com account, they could, but the majority of people have Amazon.ca accounts, so they wouldn't be able to, if they have an Audible Canadian account, they can't use the promo code. So I'm what I'm trying to explain is not complaining about that, just explaining the reality is that um it's all geared towards the US. And even right now I have a book giveaway. Maybe I should mention, no, it'll be over by the time. Sorry, uh November 4th rolls around. But I have a um a Goodreads giveaway for um the uh latest book, Revenge is not enough. But it's again only for the US market, so I can't offer it to the Canadian market. So that's just how it is. So that's the reason why we adopt the US spelling, and really it's no big deal. We get quite used to it. And it's funny, if I'm doing an email, I'll I'll write it in Canadian. Um, I'll I'll write it with the the Canadian background and learning, you know, Canadian British spelling. And yet when I'm writing my book, I automatically, I just automatically go to spelling in the US. So anyway, gotta be done.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:51

Yeah, you gotta spell marketing and stuff. You know, whatever uh promo you might have going on at the time of the launch, I think November 4th. And Virginia, do you happen to know the drop date approximately when this might drop?

SPEAKER_03 1:26:04

Uh we are so everybody should be listening to this on November 9th.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:09

Oh, cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:10

So any any links that's so nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:12

Yeah, any links you might have at that time we'll we'll we'll be glad to put in the metadata. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:19

Oh, that's so sweet. That is so sweet.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:21

It's really on fire. I love it's not even just book promotion, but I love how involved you are in uh the community, the writing community, and all the events that you attend. I think it's great.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:32

Oh we have fun. My as you know, Peter is a writer as well. And so my husband, Peter Ponza, and so we go to a lot of we go to these events together and we just have a blast. Like we work together in our dental um supply business, and so it's kind of nice to continue on that synchronicity that we have in um in working on our books together, although we don't work on our books together, we just do our book promotions together, so but it's fun. And uh I have a book of poetry that I'm trying to get out as well, so that's coming out maybe December, maybe oh 26. We'll see. But yeah, it's fun. I love I love the opportunity to express the artistic, the creative, and uh I really honor and and uh enjoy it when I see that in others too.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:22

You seem rather versatile. I think we all have different vehicles of expression, but I I love that you've stepped into your music and the poetry and the the prose. Um I envy you. I like I I envy your lifestyle. And I like that you have a partner in crime, that you both can go out and enjoy these things together. That's great.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:41

Yeah, it's pretty special. But Dominic, I mean, good heavens, you're pretty creative yourself. I mean, your your narrative work that you do and your and your artistic work, your graphics, I mean, you're amazing too, and your writing. Um, it's amazing. And and Virginia, you're you're you're amazing too with the work that you've been doing. Um, I'm I'm quite impressed with how you at this stage have gone and and uh gone back into the social work.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:15

Is that the area that you were in? Um mental health is where I am. Yeah, I I kind of feel like I'm a chameleon. I feel like I'm a chameleon because I have morphed from the marketing fashion realm all the way over to mental health with a few other stops along the way that are all very different.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:33

Amazing, amazing. And isn't that the whole point in our lives? To embrace what puts us on fire, what gives us passion, what gives us the ability to grow um and not just stay static in the same kind of life, but to explore outwards. And you're both unique this way. And so I I admire that deeply.

SPEAKER_03 1:28:57

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:58

Yeah, we I feel like we've created a little community of kindred spirits here who, yeah, I agree value brain plasticity and always learning and growing, and some, you know, it's not always creative expression, but just until you're in the in the ground, right? There's always more to learn and experience. So yeah, we've been really lucky uh that we've created a little again community, and it keeps me going just to to do this on a regular basis. And as I've said, sorry, Virginia, for repeating myself, but it just reminds me there are really cool people in the world.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:32

Well, I think it absolutely I say I think it shows again that we have a lot more in common when we sit and talk with each other versus when we just sit there and you know, to use a really interesting uh metaphor right now, since we're you know talking about writing and story, but uh reading the book by its cover. Yeah, very well put.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:59

So on that note, I mean, we've I think we've hit on some really good stuff here, but um is there anything that you would really love to impart to our listeners before we bring this to a close?

SPEAKER_05 1:30:12

Um, the only thing I'd like to say is thank you for the opportunity to have this lovely conversation, and thank you for doing what you do with this beautiful podcast, because you're spreading light in the world. Uh and I think that that's what we need so desperately right now. Uh and so um bless you both for doing that.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:33

Thank you so much. Yeah, thanks for saying that. You and thanks for being a loyal listener. I appreciate it. You always feed back and you encourage us. So thank you. And let's keep this up, whether it's you come back on for your Poetry book in December or an album. You have any albums on the horizon?

Non‑Binary Identity Through Reincarnation

SPEAKER_05 1:30:51

Oh gosh, I wish. No pressure. No, no, no projects with the music at this stage. Um, although I'm do I'm putting a little concert together, Christmas concert, just for the local community in December. I've been doing that for a few years in a row. And there's a really pretty historic church and hall, community hall, in the village of Hockley, which isn't too far from where I live. I live in a rural area. So anyway, it's it's always a funding issue for them. And so once a year I do a nice concert for them, and I bring in local singers and entertainers. So that makes it fun too. So I have people of the group is of different ages, which is nice. So it appeals to everyone. So I've got uh two 16-year-olds that are going to be singing. They sing uh they you they sing um folk songs from the 70s, and they are the sweetest young duet dual duet. The duets they do are just so beautiful, singing things like Neil Young's music, and it's just utterly, utterly, it just makes her heart twinge, and it's so beautiful. And then I've got someone who plays a clarinet, and he is amazing. And there's a lovely lady who always plays for me. Her name is Cynthia Fox, Fuchile, and she um accompanies me, but she is an amazing uh pianist on her own. Um, and she is of the Jewish faith, and so I always make sure that she is playing some songs from for Hanukkah, because that's the time for Hanukkah. And then um, and then I might there's a tenor uh if we can get ourselves organized, who he's going to be singing with me a few duets. Um he used to perform for the Canadian Opera Company, so that would be nice. So we'll have a nice variety, which I'm kind of excited about. Um, and it raises a little bit of money, and at the same time, it brings community together, especially at Christmas time. So that's the only music project I have at the moment. Right now, I'm just trying to get my poetry. Just that I've got my poetry book, which is currently being edited, and um I'm working on some cover designs because I'm in indie, I do everything myself. But I use editors, always editors. You're editors are my god.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:25

Now you're lucky you have so many resources, right? You're kind of a one-stop publisher. You're good at everything. But I love even more that you you know, you're not just kind of being a hub for creatives, you're creating community, you know. I wish I lived closer. I would insert myself into your your upcoming oh, I wish you did too. Envious. Anyway, enjoy and break. Sorry?

SPEAKER_05 1:33:52

Yeah, but I was just chuckling, that's all.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:54

Okay, well smiling. Maybe Virginia and I will rent a Winnebago and we'll we'll come up and join you one of these times. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:03

Oh, that'd be amazing. Oh my goodness, I would love that. That would be so cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:09

Well, it's probably the only way I'm gonna get up there is uh driving myself. So we'll make it happen. But for now, enjoy the concert and let us know if we can put a link to your poetry book in the metadata. And other than that, thank you so much for coming on.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:25

Thank you. It was lovely.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:27

Okay, and for our listeners, remember: life is a story, and we can get our hands in the clay individually and collectively. We can write a new story. See you next time.