CTN Expo 2025 Conversations with Animation Legends--Part One

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The rain made CTN Animation Expo feel more intimate this year as Language of the Soul's booth became a revolving door for stories bridging Disney legends, gallery treasure hunters, and students abiding muse by chasing their first calling cards. We opened with the original premise of CTN's inception: to bring Disney Feature Animation artists back together after time and industry changes dispersed colleagues who felt more like family. That set the tone for a day during which nostalgia wasn’t just comfort; it was fuel for new work, new voices, and new ways of sharing craft. We recorded a string of inspiring spontaneous conversations that traced animation’s past, present, and possible future. From the democratization of original art to a thesis short about the persistence of love when memory fails, the through-line is simple: story still matters. Enjoys interviews with:

Animation Art Dealer Debbie Weiss

SCAD graduate student filmmakers Julia Trevino and Gabriela Soriano

Breakout Animation Artist Chizu

Disney Legend Ed Ghertner

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Transcript

Setting The Scene At CTN Expo

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Hi guys, and welcome to Language of the Soul Podcast, where life is story. This episode is a follow-up to one we did our first season, I believe, pretty early on. It was what we called a roaming podcast. At CTN Expo, Creative Talent Network Expo. That was about two years ago, I believe, and we're following up with a similar roaming podcast. Oh only we won't be roaming so much as sitting at our own booth. We have a presence at the convention this year. I've been involved with CTN, and I'll explain what it is in just a moment, since its inception. I've participated in some capacity for sixteen years. This is the seventeenth year. Whether I present or I'm part of a panel discussion or a demonstration or lecture, or even when I get a booth and sell my own wares, I've had some presence in one capacity or another throughout. Again, we did a roaming podcast two years ago, but this is the first time we actually have our own booth as a podcast. In short, CTN was initially a network, as the name implies, or a collective. Early on, I believe it was meant to be an agency of sorts, uh, you know, like a lot of online platforms where you can upload your portfolio and you can, in theory, get work. Okay. Basically, here's the backstory. When I left Disney around twenty-five years ago now, blows my mind, we all just kind of found ourselves out there in the field floating around. And I was at Andreas Deja's Christmas party. Andreas is one of the people that I interviewed doing our last roaming podcast, actually, at this convention. We got pretty lucky. I just snagged interviews with some of my colleagues that I saw wandering around. One was Don Hahn, the producer of Lion King, Aladdin, Beauty and the Beast, and many others. Another was my friend Andreas. Andreas Deja. Who I would argue is one of Disney's most legendary animators. He's known for being lead animator on all the villains. Scar, Jafar, Gaston, Triton, who's not really a villain. And then the more idealized male characters like Hercules. Anyway, he had just premiered his beautiful short film, if you haven't seen it, called Mooshka. Uh, the premiere was at CTN. So I grabbed him after the premiere and got a really nice interview with him, and then with his partner Roger, who was producer of Moushka. Basically, they got a whole 2D animation studio going at home from the ground up. So, anyway, those were a great couple of interviews, and then I got an interview with Ed Gertner, who's a layout artist, and an art director, another Disney legend. So we hope to recreate the magic this year. But the real point is Andreas had this Christmas party, and uh more than anybody else at Disney, including the animation research library, Andreas is the only one who's in touch with anyone connected to the Disney legacy who's still alive. So going to his Christmas party is like a who's who. You'd see the voice of Mowgli, for example. And of course I grew up on the Jungle Book. My dad was smart enough to take us. I've said this before on the podcast, so I'm kind of repeating myself. But one of the things he did really did right was he took us to the drive-in or to the regular cinema for all the ten-year re-releases of the Disney classics. So it was just the right age to catch Jungle Book in the Theater and Sword and the Stone and Aristacats and a number of others. But I'd also read Rudyard Kipling's Jungle Book and just was in love with it, and so here I am at Andreas' Christmas party, and oh, there's the voice of Mowgli. And he's not an old man, he's just a dude. And, you know, I'd see Tinkerbell, the Sherman brothers would sit down to the piano and play It's a Small World the way it was originally written. Much slower and more melodic, more poetic. So one year at the Christmas party, I was approached by a colleague named Tina Price. And she basically said she just wanted to get the family back together post-layoff. Again, we were all kind of just bobbing around out there, and her words were, I just want to get the family back together. So I took Tina's invitation and I uploaded my portfolio, and um I've never really gotten any work from it. But the first year, straight out the gate, she started up what's called CTN, Creative Telent Network Expo. And straight out the gate, the first year it became the largest animation convention in the world. So again, I've participated every year since in some capacity, and I just find it wonderful not only to see my colleagues, my family, but I see twenty years of former students. They're now either working in the field or working their dream jobs, but some of them are maybe haven't found their footing, and they just come for um, you know, to adopt some new skills, or maybe just for inspiration. So it's definitely a reunion, and I just have many warm, fuzzy feelings around this convention. Okay, I think I've over prefaced. So again, we got some pretty stellar interviews in the past, and we're hoping to recreate the magic. Oh, I thought I'd add also not only are we looking to interview some of my colleagues, uh, icons and legends, but it's really interesting to also interview emerging artists or greener artists, maybe even students, aspiring animation artists, and just say, Hey, what brings you to CTN? You know, from Germany, for God's sake. People come from the world over with their portfolios in hand. So whether it's somebody that may be working in TV animation, but they aspire to feature, or maybe they're currently working but they just want to learn a little bit more and grow, augment their skill set, learn a new skill, or just hob knob. Network, rub elbows. And often, I mean it's not quite Comic-Con, but some aspiring animation artists just come to meet their heroes, uh, and be inspired by lecturers or artists whom they admire. Okay, yeah, so we've heard it all. We interviewed quite a few greener artists uh last time and we hope to do the same. I guess we're off and running uh with some uh roaming interviews, although again we're more stationary than we were in the past. Okay, enjoy. Hello. Hello, and welcome for s welcome to our booth. Thank you for stopping by.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Um I know very little about you. I know that I met you on Facebook, and then you looked strangely familiar when I saw you earlier today, and now I know why. But for our listeners, maybe just tell us what brings you to CTN, your name, first of all. Certainly. And what brings you to CTN?

Recreating The Roaming Interview Magic

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Hi, I'm Debbie Weiss, I'm the owner of Wonderful of Animation. We've been around since 1993, and I have a booth at CTN. I've had a booth here for, I don't know, 15, 20 years, a long time. And it's a delightful show. 17th year, by the way. 17th. I've been here a long time. So I guess I haven't had a booth for 20 years, because that wouldn't make any sense. Um and it's a delightful show, friendly people, animators, great presentations of people, you know, animators you've heard of. Aaron Blaze shows up, Willie Eto's here, Andreas is usually walking around, and if you're very lucky, you will see him, and he's very friendly. He comes by our booth. I love it when he comes by because he looks around, he's like, so-and-so did this, and he just flips through and it's like this, this, this. It's just like this encyclopedia. He's amazing. And it's a delightful show. So if you're available and you're near Burbank, California, you should come by. It's a very cute show.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Through Sunday, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Yes. I'm only here today, but the show usually runs Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Yeah, we're only here today and tomorrow. Um Mike Giamo is here this year. Did you know that?

SPEAKER_02 8:10

I did not.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah, uh, art director of Pocahontas. That's where I worked got to know him. But uh the entire Frozen franchise. So this place is crawling with Disney legends, you know?

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Yeah. Oh, here's a quick fun story. Um, Josh Gad, voice of Olaf, was a dad at my kids' school. Really nice guy, down-to-earth kids. He's a um and he's so funny. He's a super funny guy.

SPEAKER_01 8:35

Yeah, yeah, he's great. Yeah, I've seen him on talk shows. He always delivers, he's always right.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Yeah, and he's that fun in real life. I bet. Like it's not just an act. Like Josh is super fun.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

So tell us again what exactly is your presence here? What is your booth? What is your booth all about?

SPEAKER_02 8:51

Sure. So we specialize in original production animation art with a super specialty in Disney. So if you were to come by our booth today or our gallery, we have a gallery by appointment in Koreatown, or you can stop by our website, which is wagallery.com. Ugh, I can't speak. WWAGallery.com. You'll we have about a couple thousand pieces. So, for example, if you when you come by later in Dominic, you'll see original production drawings from Sleeping Beauty of Briar Rose from 1959. Oh, wow. Um so we have things like that. I uh I I'm not sure 100% what Rob, my archivist, brought, but uh certainly in inventory, I have things from Lady and the Tramp, I have things from Pinocchio, I have things from Snow White, I have things from Plain Crazy and Steamboat Willy, you get the idea. Um for this booth, we don't tend to do it online because it's a lot of work to process all the art, but at the booth we always have like specials. So we have art for$10, we have art for$20. You know, I'd be like, why? Why so cheap? Here's what happens. Somebody comes to me and says, I have a thousand, you know, cells, things like that. I'm able to get a good deal because it's so many, and then at shows it's fun. It's fun to come by. There's a lot of students here, they love the art. They can't afford a thousand dollar, you know, Briar Rose drawing or a two thousand dollar this, but most of them have ten, twenty, fifty dollars, and it's really nice to see how their eyes light up. They love this art, they probably never thought they could afford a piece, and they get to take home a few pieces of original art, and it's it's really a joy.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

Yeah, that's awesome, because you know, I have sold art through um not Sotheby's, what's the name of um Heritage?

SPEAKER_02 10:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

And that's like a whole different story. I mean, there were on online auctions that are more democratic and doable. But within reason, you know, I mean, I would my backgrounds from Lion King, Boganis, Hunchback, Tarzan. I would look at the Sotheby's catalog every year and go, holy crap. Like you're not going to be able to do that. You know, you'd have to mortgage your house to buy that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:49

Do I want this in my closet or would I like a new car? Which one should I have?

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Right. It's completely out of the stratosphere. So um I like that you're making it more democratic. Where do you get your artwork out of complete curiosity?

Debbie Weiss On Animation Art Collecting

SPEAKER_02 11:02

Uh I get asked that a lot. Uh pretty much I've been doing it for so long, and our website has a really strong presence. People come to us. So people show us art almost on a daily basis. You know, some of it's a fit, some of it's not. They come in and Yeah, or a lot of time online. You know, I I've bought art from Australia, I've bought art from Canada, you know, people Google, they um, you know, and we're well known and and well regarded, which is nice because we work hard to have a good reputation. And they just they just come to us. And that's really wonderful. So like most recently I bought an animator's estate and it had a ton of Robin Hood drawings. Robin Hood? Yeah, and what's nice is there's at least in the I haven't come across a ton of many Robin Hood drawings.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

No, yeah, I I haven't seen many, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

And so all of a sudden, now it looks like there's a ton, because I've got a ton, and what's wonderful is there's some in there that I never like to say, people go, who did this? I don't like to say for sure. I'm not in the room with them, the animators passed away, but there's things that I would tell you are most likely milts, which is the holy grail. Right. Right, right, right. And then there's a lot that I would uh guess are louncebury's, and sometimes John Lounceberries and Milts look very similar. Um again, I you could e I've even shown some of these drawings to big names, and some of them think it's milts, some of them. Last thing I would do is tell you this is a milt for sure, and then a big name Anna Mare goes, no, no, no, it thinks loungebury. You're upset, you're upset with me, so I just say my best guess is, but I don't like to guarantee that. And what's also exciting when you buy something like an Anne Mayor's estate is it it's almost like finding a lost treasure. No one thought that art was there, right? And all of a sudden, if you were to buy a Robin Hood drawing for me, you're the first person to have it in your collection. And so I just feel like I found this. I'm like one of those movies, right? Those channel hunt treasure hunting movies, and all of a sudden, here's stuff that no one thought existed. So to me, that's the most exciting thing. You want to hear some stories of some art done? Okay, I can tell you some fun stories.

SPEAKER_01 13:05

Um sorry, let me make sure I understand you regularly visit estate sales of animation artists, or it just comes your way?

SPEAKER_02 13:12

It comes my way. Um I'm not aware of there being regular estate sales for animation. But if you know of some, then hook me up.

SPEAKER_01 13:21

Well the big uh I do hear about them from time to time, and I can't always make it. I'm trying to remember there was a big one a while back, and it wasn't I mean, all the nine old men have passed, right? But I feel like it was one of those guys. Who's Andreas' biggest influence? Is it Milt Call?

SPEAKER_02 13:37

Andreas is a big, big, big Milt fan.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

I feel like it when did Milt pass?

SPEAKER_02 13:42

I don't know what that's a talking mind.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

I think there was a huge estate sale, I might be misspeaking. Okay. But anyway, yeah. And I can talk offline after. I definitely want to know more about it. Okay, so what's your biggest find?

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Well, I have a few stories. So when I s first when you first start, and this is really when the internet was just starting, you know, because I've been around that long and I'm that old. Uh I th it was probably around 30 years ago, this lady from Alaska contacted me and she had Snow White Concept Art. Now, back then, concept art was not as sought after as it is now. What I've noticed is when I first started, people wanted cells. They wanted the Lane Tramp cell, you know, the things that they recognized. And the drawings were kind of like, eh, drawings, they don't, they're not in color. And um, so what basically happened is I didn't collect I I started collecting and I was like, I want the cells, I want what it looks like. And then I'm I'm being interviewed right now, so let me come back to you. This is my friend Rick Farmolo, who's interrupting my my my podcast. He's a wonderfully talented animator.

SPEAKER_01 14:43

She was just singing your phrases, by the way. Okay, go.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

And so anyway, and concept art, I I feel that a lot of people, animators are different because you guys have this appreciation for the drawings and the animators and things like that. But I'll call it more regular collectors. I find they often go on a journey. They start with the cells, that's what they recognize. Then they get an appreciation and a love for the image like, oh, I like a drawing because that's really where this character started. Wait a second, concept art? I didn't really know about concept art because they didn't have that in the Disney store or at Disneyland and things like that. And they go down this journey, and I have definitely seen the drawings and the key drawings explode. Can I interrupt real quick?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

I know you're getting to some juicy stories, but there was a push too, like even in live action, art direction, which we call production design now, right? Art direction, pre-vis, visual development and animation. Yeah, nobody you know the art of books, that kind of started the ball rolling of people appreciating the pre-production.

SPEAKER_06 15:42

I could see that.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

And then there was a documentary that Bob Cotto and I were both interviewed for, and it was literally one estate trying to increase the value of their collection by making a documentary to get the public interest on the concept art. Isn't that interesting? So I've kind of seen that the public is generally more savvy now and more appreciative for the yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Yeah, for sure. Because the concept art most times, you know, it doesn't quite look like the character, so the comfort level Well, it shouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

It should be lateral exploration, I call it, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 16:11

Someone like you doesn't need an explanation for that. But a lot of typical collectors who like see the art for the first time, it just wanted to look like the film they're familiar with, right? Yeah, so it doesn't feel um familiar to them. And so they need some time to warm up to it. So this lady contacts me, I buy a bunch of uh Snow White concepts. The one that got away, there was a s uh there was a queen, which you know she's not in there for very long at all. Queen with the puma. And the puma did.

SPEAKER_01 16:42

Is the queen the same as the witch?

SPEAKER_02 16:44

The queen turned into the witch later on. Okay. So the queen as queen form, only a little bit, then poof, witch and the witch for the rest of it. So finding art from the queen is very rare. Because if you just do simple.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Was she beautiful, like maleficent? I feel like she was that thirties kind of beautiful wasn't she a beautiful queen?

SPEAKER_02 17:03

Well, I don't I guess that's subjective. I mean she was jealous of Snow White, so I guess we're gonna go. Yeah, we'll Google that we'll probably have some conversations after this. But I get this art, I kept a few pieces for myself, which I I still have, and the rest went to at the time the largest collector in the world. And I thought the art was cool and I really wanted to, you know, develop a relationship, you know, with this this collector and everything like that. Thirty years later, I've never gotten anything like it. And you just don't know, right? When you're starting, you're like, oh, this is cool. You want to hear a story about James Gandalfini, the guy from um Sopranos?

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Oh yeah. Yeah, as well as it's like. Well maybe it's really dark. Is there is there mafia in this story?

SPEAKER_02 17:43

No, nobody was killed that I know about, but it is kind of fun. You want to hear it? Absolutely. Okay. So when we had the gallery at the time in Beverly Hills at a storefront, the uh James walked in, but he didn't look like himself. He looked kind of scruffy because he was doing a movie where he had a beard and a little bit. I think it was it was a while ago, maybe it was like 20 years ago. Okay. It was during Sopranos, but like off-season sopranos. So he was making a movie in between. So we didn't look like him. He walked in, it was very scruffy, and I'm like, oh, because I read people. So it's like, oh my god. Um I go, that's James Gildan Field. I'm like, what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? I was like, act normal. What's normal? I can't remember what normal was. So James came in, I'm like, hi James, how can I help you? And he was looking for some art. And then uh so he's looking for some things as gifts because he was wrapping up his filming. And then all of a sudden he gets a call to go back to set, and he's like, Well, you uh do you guys mind coming over to Culver City and coming to the set? I'm like, oh no, James, we don't mind at all. I was like, oh my god, this is so exciting. So we grabbed a bunch of art, we ran, we go there, we get through, we're VIPs, we're this or that. He invites us onto the set, we watch him film a scene, Ben Athlak went by, he actually farted in front of us, which I thought was hilarious. And then James is in his trailer, he's like playing video games, just very down-to-earth, very fun. And he picked a bunch of art. Uh I usually don't talk about my clients, but James is sadly not here anymore, and it's kind of a a good story.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

Um and so Well, at least he wasn't the one who farted, right? No.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

So But he bought the jester that drinks all the time and Sleeping Beauty.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

He's he said, I need to clearly I need to see Sleeping Beauty again, right?

SPEAKER_02 19:27

Yeah, yeah. You and I will we'll have a play date. Um and so the jester, and he goes, Oh, this is perfect for Ben, you know, because Ben was very vague and drinking. He goes, I'm gonna buy this for Ben, it's gonna piss off J-Lo. That was J Lo round one. And I'm like, You're my kind of guy. So he picks some stuff, and then he was like, Will you do me a deal, do me a deal. And I'm like, Are you kidding me? He makes a billion dollars a second, and I'm just some animation chick. Right, right. So this is what I did. So I because I really wanted to get the sale, but so I said to him, because I'm hoping he tells his friends all the things, so I looked at him, and I just read people again, and he was getting a million dollars an episode or whatever. So I looked at him and I said it just like this. I said, James, I really want to work with you, so I'm gonna give you a discount. I want you to be happy. I said, but I said, don't think that I don't know that you just got a big ass raise. I said it just like that, and then it was silent. I'm like, oh no, I just blew the sale, I pissed him off, whatever. I gave him the discount. And then it was like scary mafia silence, and then he started laughing. And he bought the piece. Bada bing, bada boom. So that that was probably my my favorite celebrity story that I can.

SPEAKER_01 20:39

It's very LA. It's a very Hollywood lore story. I like it. Wow, okay. And so do you get a lot of celebrity clients interested in animation?

Democratizing Original Art For Fans

SPEAKER_02 20:48

We have a number of celebrity clients. Unfortunately, I I can't talk about the other ones too much. A few of them have allowed us, you know, to take pictures and use that that, so I can talk about those. So Scott Stapp from Creed. Um one of the guys singer or uh uh. Yeah, he's a lead singer from Creed, has a piece from us. Kareem Um Abdul Jabbar, the basketball um felt he's delightful. Everyone's really nice. Um Tony Hawk came by, the skateboarder guy. These are just the ones I can mention because they've let us, you know, take pictures and things like that. And so a handful of others. Um it's always fun. You know, it's always always fun. We had uh a celebrity come by, again, I can't mention, um, but last week just down to earth, come in, just regular, you know, they love the stuff too, you know, they're in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

And sorry for my memory, where is the gallery again?

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Um it's in Korea Town, so it's by appointment. So if you want to come, um you wouldn't see us walking down. We're in an office. I did have a big gallery in Culver City for many years where you could just walk in. But COVID kind of changed the game and people weren't coming in as much. And my folks liked working from home, so I said, you know what? We're doing just as well online. I don't need this building. So we sold it. So we have an office, and if you came, you would be able to see art, but it's not one of those galleries where everything's hung and labeled and all that. It's more like what's in this super secret box. So it's kind of fun in that treasure hunting kind of way.

SPEAKER_01 22:15

You know, I had a loft. Do you know where Traction Avenue is?

SPEAKER_02 22:18

I do not.

SPEAKER_01 22:18

It's right outside Little Tokyo. Did you say Korea Town? Korea Town. Oh, I'm sorry, okay. Never mind. Different country in the Yeah. No, there was a little hub of artists' lofts, but in the 80s it was jumping. And then by the time I got mine in the 90s, it was a ghost town. But um Yeah, a lot of art artsy types kind of running around there. But no, Korea Towns, I mean, Koreatown's huge. So where are you exactly? I know you do it at Point Monon Leaf.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yeah, we're in we're in Wilshire. Wilshire. So it's uh it's good there. There's parking underneath, that kind of thing. And then it's nice, you know, people come by either with art for sale or, you know, to buy some art.

SPEAKER_01 22:55

And do you have some things I can dust off from under the bed? Uh we should we should talk. I like under bed art.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

That's one of my favorite kinds of art.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Here's the thing though, like, I mean, I definitely had a medical emergency and I sadly auctioned off most of my retirement trunk. Oh no. I mean, you know, things walk out of the building. I had a lot of production art walk out of the building with me. That's all gone. But I have like just little studies. I don't want to say too much, but like let's say hunchback. We're just exploring the cobblestones for Feast of Fools, for example. So you do a little study of cobblestones, but it's not the production art that ended up in the film. So that's really all I have left, are like studies that are actually pre-production or visual development, but uh they're not sexy, you know, they're just studies. So maybe I'll run those by you.

SPEAKER_02 23:40

Well, I'll take a look, I'll let you know.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Sometimes they fly, you know, like on eBay, maybe not so much in a gallery setting, but sometimes there's interest. Yeah, they're not that exciting.

SPEAKER_02 23:50

eBay is a tricky one. I think of it kind of Wild West. You know, I've seen some things on there that Well, it was a guy named Steve Shanes.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Like I've never I d you gotta make a full-time go of eBay. It's not worth it unless you make it a business. So I've only done heritage, like I said, and then Steve Shanes does online auctions, but he manages it all. So I think I unloaded some artwork on him, and it did sell on eBay, but it's his magic. I don't know if that makes sense. You don't bother with that, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:16

I I have a store on eBay versus auctions. So there's a so we put some things on, uh, but because of the eBay fees, you know, it's uh it's always cheaper to come to our site directly. But some people do find us, you know, on eBay and we do sell some things anyway. But I just do the store, you know, versus the auction and it's this and it's that. It's just kind of up there, and then it's just another presence for us.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Believe it or not, I want to way backpedal, and I know I don't have you forever today, but uh, where did your interest in animation art arise? What's your background?

SPEAKER_02 24:49

So when I was little, when I was 10, um, I went to school one day and another kid brought in comic books. I've never seen a comic book, I never heard of a comic book. I was like, what is this, what is this magical thing? It was Richie Rich's. And I started collecting, I got my Overstreet, I was like, this, you know, and there was an old bookstore that sold comics for like, I think ten cents each. Uh, you know, older ones. I had thousands. It was amazing.

SPEAKER_01 25:14

Is that a guy thing though? Like how many girls were doing that?

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Uh collecting comic books is m seems to be much more of a guy thing. It's not so much a chick thing.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

But I think I have an uncle that was uh that guy, you know, in the 50s and sixties and seventies.

SPEAKER_02 25:27

I'm kind of tomboyish, so it traps. So then I uh left college. I was a trader on Wall Street, so I traded I was in London, then I was in Tokyo. When I lived in Tokyo, my mother bought me an Archie cell. I had no idea what it was. I I was like, you bought me a tiny little square of film and when they're anime I guess, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Um they were animated too. It was a comic book, but it was was there an animated.

SPEAKER_02 25:49

So there is a not very good show. Well, it didn't go for a long time. Archie and the I think it's the Archie show or something. I actually I don't sell a lot from that clearly because I don't know what it's called. Um and so she bought me this this Archie cell and I was like, it was like this switch flipped and my my life changed. I'm like, what is this? And so I put on my detective hat and things like that. And this is before the internet, right? So I just started, you know, finding sources for animation. I get my bonus on Wall Street, I would drive to a place that doesn't exist anymore, and it wasn't a gallery, it was more of a somewhere that sold to galleries, spend my whole bonus, come back with all this art. And I was just like, I loved what I do. I'm very good trader, I loved it. But trading can be hard. It can be hard to be a female, and I'll leave it at that for So you were a stockbroker? Yeah, I was I was a Latin American position trader and a Japanese equity trader. No, no, it's no problem. The if you're not from that world, you know, they all kind of sound the same. So for a generic term stockbroker, for a specific term, I was a position trader, which is one of the hardest ones. And it's not an industry that's that friendly to females, and and they asked me to do it.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Collected c you were a comic book geek, and I'm not gonna remember the term already. A positions trader. Trader.

SPEAKER_02 27:09

Yeah, very good. And then also they asked me to do some things that I thought were unethical and not the best interest of the client, and I wouldn't do it. So I resigned. I was like, you know, I'd rather sell this animation that I love and I will be a gallery that it's my ethics and and that and I lose some sales sometimes because a client will come to me like, you know, what do you think? You know, this piece for me. And I will tell them, I don't care what price it is, I don't I'm not like, oh, buy this$10,000 one. I'm like, tell me your goals, tell me what you're trying to do, and if the thousand dollar piece is in line with the goals, then that's what I recommend. It's just who I am, it's how I'm wired. And I guess that's why, you know, I've had a lot of clients that have bought from me. Some people only buy from me, you know, for decades.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Like, seemed to be a thing of the past, so I like your business model truly. Thank you. Especially when it comes to art, you know, like you said, if it goes straight from some trunk in an estate to somebody's home, you want it to be cherished and loved and for the right reasons, you know. It's not really a tran it's not always transactional, right?

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Yeah, we're not that kind of gallery. I mean, there's a few galleries that were more kind of like very pushy and they're not around anymore. But I think different places have like different culture, you know. So our clients like our culture. They like the way we do things, and so we get a really long, it's interesting when some of those I'll call it high higher pressure galleries which aren't there anymore, but when people show us art for sale from yeah, from them, um it's interesting. Their personalities are usually not a great match because they were attracted to that kind of business model and and pressure and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

Well that that's kind of I'm obviously s asking lead-in questions because I want to steer it. The spirit of our podcast is really about story in all its forms, right? Story is propaganda, it's advertising. Sometimes story is hijacked for the almighty dollar. But we're just all about literary value, artistic integrity. So what do you notice among those that are a good fit? What is their love? What's their connection to animation? And what is it a love of storytelling? What or is it a love of the archival physical artwork? Is it all of the above? Is there a profile for your clients?

SPEAKER_02 29:23

Uh, that was a question. Sorry. Um Welcome to my podcast. Yes. The uh I think I should have studied more before I said yes. You know what I'm saying though. What they seem to have something in common. What I find is people tend to, it's kind of generational. I find that people like to collect what spoke to them when they were little. Nostalgia. Right. So when I first started, VCRs were starting, right? There was no DVDs yet, there was no, you know, Netflix or Disney Plus, none of those things. So most of what I was selling, you know, was the Cinderellas and the things, because the people from that era were the ones that had money. Exactly. I had a ton of SpongeBob art at one point, again, maybe 15, 20 years ago, tons of it. And we sold some right away. And then I I took a I took a position if we want to talk about trading. I was like, I like SpongeBob, I I think it's really good, and I bought a ton and quite a bit of it sat there for a while. I'm out of it now, but guess what? Now SpongeBob people grew up and they have jobs and they have money, and now I'm getting loads of requests for Spongebob. I'm like, where were you people 20 years ago? Right. I know we were. You were five, five years old with so you see generational things like that. You um what I find interesting is also what I like about animation art is anyone, pretty much of almost anyone Any age, almost any culture, any country, can walk in your house and they know that's Mickey Mouse, or they know it's Homer Simpson. Yes. And so I think that's fascinating. And one of the reasons I've sold thousands of Simpson cells, like a ton. I love the Simpsons. I know it very, very well.

SPEAKER_01 31:01

Such a long running show.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

Such a long running show. Matt Groening used to call me Gallery Chick when I had a booth at um Of course he did. Of course he did. And I loved it. I didn't care he didn't know my name. He's like, hey, gallery chick.

SPEAKER_01 31:13

That's a status symbol right here.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Clearly, I don't do well in the face of celebrities. I tend to have to be like, well, Matt, it's Matt!

Estates, Attribution, And Lost Treasures

SPEAKER_01 31:19

I geek out, yeah. I mean, I'm not I grew up in sorry, thinking about me for a minute, but I grew up in Burbank and I would see John Wayne at the supermarket, and I would go trick-or-treating at DeFonz's house. Oh my god. I didn't bat an eye. Nothing really impressed me. Johnny Carson's son, I think we're similar in age. Johnny Carson's son was a good one. I know who Johnny Carson is, yes. But if it's somebody whose work I admire, whole nother story. Whole other story.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

See, I'm from Connecticut. We didn't have any celebrities anywhere.

SPEAKER_01 31:45

Yeah, I wasn't impressed, but if I love their work, then I'm a babbling fool and I should never approach them, and I do. Uh real quick, just for my listeners, there was a documentary about a gay couple that got together post-World War II in the 50s, and one of them was a commander, and then it was an under, you know, a sergeant or something. And but in the 50s, they literally got everyone together and said, We're in a relationship. If anybody has a problem with it, speak up. Nobody did. So progressive for the 50s. Anyway, and then they've been together for 50 years. So I just watched that documentary in Los Felas. The lights came up, and they're like, and here they are. Like I had no idea they'd be in the room. So that's when these 85-year-old men were like making sure I was okay.

SPEAKER_03 32:27

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

I balled like a baby and I couldn't form words. So if I respect somebody, I'm a dabbling fool for sure.

SPEAKER_02 32:35

Yeah, no, I get it. Uh so I know. It's just it's really fun. It's it's a fun job to do. I meet really fun people. I get to see amazing art. You know, a lot of people would be like, How do you sell anything? Well, I can't keep everything. I mean, I have my own collection. I I do want to do that.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

Yeah, that must be tempting, huh? To not let stuff go.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Well, it's interesting. It's you know it's what speaks to you. So I like super cute like Bambi and Dumbo. I like super evil, like the Queen and Maleficent, and then I like special effects. So I love um The Dwarves Blushing. I like the witch in the rain, I like Dopey with water squirting out of his ears. That's not for everybody. Absolutely. You know?

SPEAKER_01 33:16

It's funny you would mention those films because my dad didn't do everything right, but he did take us to the ten-year re-releases of all remember Walt's Vision was to re-release them every ten years theatrically. So my dad had a family of six, so sometimes he would slum it and we'd go to the drive-in, but sometimes it was the real cinema. But I was the right age to catch the ten-year re-release of Jungle Book, Aristocats, Oh, how cool. All of those, yeah. And those are the ones I'm nostalgic about.

SPEAKER_02 33:46

That's what um spoke to you. Uh oh wait, you were asking me about clients. So it's about, I think, what connects them. And I find that for Disney, it often skews female for things like Cinderella and stuff like that. It often skews male for sword in the stone and jungle book and things like that. And Simpsons tends to skew very male. But what's interesting about Simpsons is that some of the shows like Rugrats, you don't really enjoy it. It's a very kid, little kid show. Simpsons, right, is almost a double speak, right? The kids like it, the grown-ups like it, so the grown-ups are more likely to buy art that speaks to them, you know. So that's what I think.

SPEAKER_01 34:29

Yeah, the Simpsons, they say Simpsons is family entertainment. And sometimes the double entres go right over the kids' heads. Exactly. Simpsons is edgy. I don't know if it's family entertainment. It's for adults, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 34:42

I won't let my kids watch Family Guy, although I was gonna say they're secretly doing it.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

Family Guy, nothing is sacred.

SPEAKER_02 34:50

Yeah, so family. I'm like, no. But I'm pretty sure they're not on YouTube. I have to look in their history, I think.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

So do you feel like you have to keep your finger on the pulse of animation? Do you try to watch everything? I feel like I can't watch everything that comes out.

SPEAKER_02 35:08

No, no, I can't I can't really do that. And I sell the older things anyway. But here's what's interesting about doing this as a job I can't just watch Cinderella anymore as a film because I'm like, oh yeah, I sold that one. Oh, I like that cell, oh yeah, there's that on my wall. I can't watch it. I disassociate because I see it as the cells and that's a bummer.

SPEAKER_01 35:29

Because I'm a filmmaker, I'm a live action after animation. Eleven years at Disney, I started making films, and I'm such a sucker for story that I wish I could learn technique by watching films. If a boom mic comes into frame, I'm out for sure. But other than that, I get sucked into the story and I don't analyze. I wish I could.

SPEAKER_02 35:48

I I it's just what I'm so used to.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

What else would you like to quickly impart to listeners before we say goodbye? We're gonna put your links. Any links you provide us, we'll put them in the episode description.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Oh, thank you so much. I appreciate it. I just thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. If you have any questions, if you're a new collector experience, please uh check us out at wwagallery.com. We're very happy, you know, if you haven't collected your interest, we're very happy to answer any questions, no matter how basic. It's not a problem. One of my favorite things is getting new collectors to start um collecting. It makes it really exciting. So you can be me from 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 36:25

Right on. Well, thank you. You're very approachable, you know, for an elite gallery operator. Am I elite now? All right. Oh, yeah. That world can be you're very approachable, and thank you so much. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:37

It's been a pleasure. Of course. Appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 36:39

Take care. Well, I'll wander by your booth a little bit later.

SPEAKER_02 36:42

Oh, I'd love that.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Take care. Welcome back, listeners. Uh, we just recruited somebody from a couple booths down, and I really know nothing about them, but I know they're very charming, and I'm looking forward to learning more. I do know, or I believe they, you, have a film in production or is it already out?

SPEAKER_03 37:01

It's in production right now. We're finalizing animation in December, and January we're going into lighting, rendering, and sound.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

So it's uh sounds like CG, not 2D. Yeah, C G. Okay. So names first for our listeners.

SPEAKER_08 37:15

I'm Gabriela Soriano. I'm Julia Trabino.

unknown 37:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 37:19

Trabino, you said?

SPEAKER_08 37:20

Trabino, yeah. T-R-E-B-I-N.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Um where are you from?

SPEAKER_03 37:24

I'm from Puerto Rico.

SPEAKER_08 37:26

I'm from Mexico City, Mexico.

SPEAKER_01 37:27

Okay. So you have a CG film that's in production, and then when is it due to be released? Do you have distribution for it or are you taking it out to the film markets?

SPEAKER_03 37:36

Well, first it's going into festivals and it's it's gonna be finished by May 2026, and that's when we're gonna send it out to festivals. Um it's only going into commercial like YouTube and stuff um next year 2027, maybe by May too. So hopefully.

SPEAKER_08 37:53

Um we're also it's our this is for graduation. So yeah, we're hoping to get like uh get into like all the film festivals as possible, and then hopefully if we can get one of the YouTube channels that publish animated short films uh to publish it, that would be great. Yeah, or not we'll just publish it on our own and then do the PR on our by ourselves and all that.

SPEAKER_01 38:12

Yeah, there's so many distribution avenues now, right? It's all being reinvented and there's so many options. You used to have to hit all the American film market and all the festivals and just hope to God you land a distribution, right?

SPEAKER_08 38:24

Now it seems like there's a lot of options, like for streaming and like you said, YouTube and it's really nice that our school gives us the full rights of our film and like and they're also publishing it like for themselves. Yeah. And that's pretty that's pretty that that's very helpful for us as the creators of the film.

SPEAKER_06 38:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

One of my first questions is you look awfully young, you must be in school. So this is a thesis project?

SPEAKER_03 38:48

Yes, got it for our graduation, yes. What school? Uh Ringing College of Art and Design. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

Great school. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good school, very demanding. Oh, I'm sure, yeah. Well, I went to Art Center and then I founded their entertainment track and I taught there for 20 years. So I know all about demanding. Art Center's got that reputation too. But I know, you know, I recruited for Disney a lot, even here at CTN. CTN? I sometimes say CNN instead of CTN for years. And um, so SCAD, Ringling, School of Art and Design, Art Center, of course, CalArts. Those are kind of the top schools. Your school has a really good reputation.

SPEAKER_08 39:24

Yes, we're very proud to be graduating from there. Um it's been hard, and uh like our class started twice as big as it is now, and like half of them like dropped down and stuff, so we're proud to be here. It's been hard, but it's uh we're yeah, we're proud to survive.

SPEAKER_01 39:38

Yeah, we're and that's an accomplishment in itself.

SPEAKER_08 39:41

It's really an accomplishment. And we're very proud of our thesis, and we're putting like all our heart and soul into it.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Yeah, well, I'm gonna ask about it in a second, the concept of it, but I'm still stuck on the school. Do they have an uh animation track or an entertainment track? How specific is your major?

SPEAKER_03 39:57

Ringling has a computer animation major which teaches all parts of the pipeline. Uh we go from story to rendering, lighting. Uh the only thing that I would say we don't really get into is sound. Sound is pretty much outsourced, and it's but it's the only thing. Like our film, we've done everything ourselves except the except the sound.

SPEAKER_08 40:15

Do they give you resources to find a sound designer and a studio and they have a really good studio, like sound studio, I think, yeah in part of the school, and they give us um their services for free as students, so that's pretty cool for us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 40:30

Sound is my favorite part. Scoring fully and then production sound, marrying it all together is like an art in itself. And honestly, as a live action filmmaker, it's my favorite part. I like listening to my movies without watching them. Have you ever done that? Ooh, no. It gives you a tone and a mood, you know what I mean? From the other room. I've accidentally left my films playing, and I'm like, I want to see that movie, you know. I love sound and I respect a composer's for sure.

SPEAKER_03 40:57

See, one of the things that we're uh crowdfunding for is for composers for our film. Uh it's so that's one of the reasons we're here. We're promoting our films to be able to like raise enough money to get a good composer, get good sound, because we know how important it is in those in those moments of silence that we really want people to absorb it. It it's silent, it's just pure, just white noise is not enough. We need we need the composer, we need sound to renew.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

No, you're speaking my language. Um sound is so important. And in live action, by the way, it's the first thing to ruin a film. Have you ever heard that?

SPEAKER_07 41:28

Oof, no. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 41:29

No, you can watch a film and you're like, okay, that's a student film. It was shot in somebody's apartment. Disturbing uh location sound, they call it. Disturbing location sound is the first thing to ruin a film. But that's not an issue with you.

SPEAKER_03 41:41

Because you don't have live actors, right? Hopefully, hopefully. No, yeah, but that's actually something, now that you say that I've noticed with other thesis films from Ringling, that it sounds it you can tell that it was a student film because the sound is like they didn't have enough money to get a real composer, and it sounds well, even the production sound, if it's not clean anyway.

Celebrity Clients And A Gandolfini Story

SPEAKER_01 42:01

Uh the other thing with live action, if they've shot it in a room but it's just a wall and they're shooting it straight against the wall with no Z-axis, if that makes sense. Like, okay, student film. They're shooting against a wall. Anyway, there's a couple giveaways. But uh before I digress, um do you have who pitches the film? Do you have a synopsis? Can you tell our listeners what it's all about?

SPEAKER_03 42:25

We have a synopsis. Okay. So a grandpa's telling the story of how he fell in love to his granddaughter, but he keeps getting confused with iconic romantic movie moments. Uh that's the bottom.

SPEAKER_01 42:35

That's already funny. Is it funny? Okay, go.

SPEAKER_03 42:37

That's the point. Yes. Uh so it's a film about memory, about loss, it's about uh also like just how films can really like uh just make our life you and resonate with your moments in life.

SPEAKER_08 42:52

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

It's their podcast. Oh wow, that's our podcast. Life is story.

SPEAKER_08 42:56

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:57

But but also your worldviews and your value systems are a product of the stories you've been exposed to in life.

SPEAKER_08 43:02

Yeah, exactly. It's really like our film is basically that, and like also how in their like our character-specific kind of like lives, their movies have shaped their stories, and and they are like their whole memory is like an influence of this movie, so it's um so what that's what we want to like represent. And then we want to make it funny, it's like physically funny, and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:23

So I might have interrupted your synopsis. Is there more?

SPEAKER_03 43:26

Uh that's the same thing. I just got excited because it's so much in the spirit of our podcast. That's just the log line. Uh you there is more, but it's more like uh we want you to experience that part, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:36

Yeah, it was a great pitch, pitch uh synopsis. But I got hung up on because you said he was older, right? Yes, he's a grandpa. Is he confusing or conflating his life with movies? Or is that up to the viewer?

SPEAKER_03 43:48

Um you could it could be interpreted, but for the it's pretty directly he's trying to tell the story of how he fell in love, but he thinks he i his story is these movie moments. He thinks that Lady in the Tramp happened to him, that he thinks Titanic happened to him, and then the granddaughter's like, no grandpa, like that's a movie. What happened? What what was your story? What actually happened to you?

SPEAKER_01 44:10

Um I think that says a lot, right? It does say a lot.

SPEAKER_03 44:13

Yeah, our like the most impacting moment of our film is when we finally get to the real story, and it's kind of like this moment where oh, like these the details of it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter where we were, it doesn't matter like what was happening, it just matters that like I looked at her and I was like, this is it, this is yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:30

The emotional content is what matters. Sorry, I keep rewording it, but I think it's really beautiful concept because you know when you see Alzheimer's, I don't know if you've had family members, but dementia and Alzheimer's they do start to confuse you know, the yesterday with 20 years ago for one, you know, but also maybe stories they've internalized with their own stories, but uh for me it's like, and maybe in the spirit of the podcast, there's no real separation because uh the stories you've been exposed to do shape your worldview.

unknown 45:02

Exactly, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 45:03

And also like how yeah, like it doesn't really matter what they were doing, but it's like the the moment like he fell in love with her. Like that is uh the emotion is what matters.

SPEAKER_01 45:11

Yeah, the details don't matter. Exactly. So the one he's recounting his story, he said it's a niece?

SPEAKER_03 45:16

No what it's a granddaughter.

SPEAKER_01 45:18

Granddaughter, yeah. Does she eventually learn that lesson? Like, I don't need to correct him all the time.

SPEAKER_03 45:22

Um I think to at the end we kind of have like a funny rev uh moment where he goes back to the movie telling part and she's like, grandpa, but I think she's more like, okay, let's just leave him to his like fantasies. Like it's okay, because he it's it's how he views the world. The movies is what he views the world.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

It's really beautiful because I have a mom that deteriorated with dementia, and I was never the one who would step in and give her the word. I'd let her take her time and find the word. I never protected her, if that makes sense. And then later, you know, when she would she'd be talking like very coherently here and now, and then she'd talk about her dream last night as if it really happened, like in the middle of and you're like, Mom. But I never corrected her. I just go, okay, so the tree talked to you? Oh, that's awesome. Go on, tell me more. I was always the guy that would just tell me more. Because her reality is her reality, and all that matters is she still recognized me, thank god. She never stopped recognizing me, and just the connections are what matter, the love, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 46:25

Yeah, the emotion, the feeling.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

I'm saying this all without having seen your film. But I like what you said.

SPEAKER_08 46:31

Thank you, thank you. No, yeah, we are uh it's uh so it's like 3D. It's supposed to be funny, like it is physically funny and it's like heartwarming. Like it we don't we didn't want really want it to be like more uh like we didn't want it to feel sad on any moment.

SPEAKER_03 46:44

Yeah, you wanna uh we wanted you to like feel the emotions but not be disheartened because at the end of the day he still is in that movie mindset by the end of the film. Like it's that's not gonna change, that's how he views the world. Uh but it shouldn't be sad, it should just be like fun to a degree. It's like that his worldview is valid.

SPEAKER_01 47:03

Yeah, I think the two can coexist, touching and uh funny. It's the best way, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:09

Yeah, that's that's what we wanted to make.

unknown 47:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:10

Beautiful. Well, I can't wait to see it. We're gonna wander by your booth. Do you have some uh what do you have? Like uh visual development art, production art.

SPEAKER_03 47:18

We have a poster, we basically which we did uh it's basically Lala Land. So we were kind of like showing how we would interpret like a film like that. So in our film, we have a moment in La La Land, and we have a poster of that, and we just have a Kickstarter QR code, so we have stuff.

SPEAKER_08 47:33

Yeah, in the in our Kickstarter page we can see like all the c all the character, all the modeling, and the kind of like how the concept came to be, how we came up with the.

SPEAKER_01 47:41

Did you research La La Land much uh in this? Yes, yes, a little bit, yeah. Do you know Jac Jacques Demy? Yeah, the La La Land was largely influenced by the umbrellas of Scharburg, Les Perplui de Charburg. Have you ever seen that? You might want to watch it. There's a lot of nods in um La La Land to Demi. And uh it's not Hollywood lore, but it's Paris. You might enjoy it. It's a really beautiful it was the first rock opera on a film.

unknown 48:09

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Or I guess operetta, like every word is sung.

SPEAKER_06 48:13

Okay, wow.

SPEAKER_01 48:13

But it's I don't know if you're nostalgic about older films, but it's 60s, really style. Like Breakfast at Tiffany's, really beautifully stylized.

SPEAKER_08 48:20

I love those are like my favorite movies are from the 1930s. From the 60s?

SPEAKER_01 48:25

Oh, that's really old, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:27

She goes very old. I think I'm more 80s, uh more of an 80s and 90s. Adelante. Yeah, before and ahead. And after person, but she's really into the old person.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

It's a good you compliment each other, I'm sure. Who is your art director?

SPEAKER_03 48:41

Well, we're both art directing it.

SPEAKER_01 48:44

How would you describe? I'm just morbidly curious. It what's the look of the film?

SPEAKER_08 48:48

Is it a very like our style is very inspired in like uh later Pixar movies kind of like turning red or Luca? Like that's kind of like the start of the characters.

SPEAKER_03 48:57

But I would say I like I like thinking of it as very bold. Like everything, like the lighting specific. We haven't gone to the lighting, but I'm very excited for that part. Uh we want everything to be dramatic, everything to be like you know exactly what's happening, what what you need to look at. It's very staging. Yes, it's uh very staging, very direct, I think, uh is our style right now. Um we do not allow a lot of a lot of space for like uh just the flowiness of it, sadly. There's not enough space for that in our film.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

What do you mean exactly? The flowiness of the editing?

SPEAKER_03 49:31

I guess yes. There's because our film, it goes really fast and it goes uh and it's very direct, so there's not a lot a lot of space for that flowiness of it. So we're kind of leaning into the bold aspect of it, you know.

SPEAKER_06 49:42

Got it.

SPEAKER_03 49:43

I think. No, yeah.

SPEAKER_08 49:45

And also she she's very um she's kind of like focused and she had like the lead in when we were designing the characters. Yeah. And we also wanted them to make them Hispanic, because we're Hispanic, and also like the the like, for example, I connected with movies thanks to my parents. And I kind of like, and she also did, so like we kind of like wanted to also represent that kind of like relationship of how so we kind of like established how granddaughter and grandpa they do watch movies constantly, and that's how the granddaughter got into like movies and stuff. We wanted to represent that and also like from the Hispanic point of view as well. Um and also uh I am the kind of like I got like the lead when I was when we were choosing the art for the environments. I mean it was very easy because we had a lot of references from the actual environments of the films. But when it's when we're like in the in the real world, uh I had we were very inspired in like in mid-century art design and like we also had a lot of props. Mid-century, you said yeah, mid-century. That's what I'm like my art is very about that. Um yeah, and we anything specific?

SPEAKER_01 50:45

I mean that's pretty broad, right?

SPEAKER_08 50:46

Right, mid-century, uh yeah, mid-century, kind of like arc architecture, kind of like uh art deco? Art deco like leaning into art deco and like uh relying on like more graphic um design? I guess. Yeah, yeah. More graphical shapes, more like yeah, very much.

SPEAKER_01 51:04

Yeah, I mean architecture, there was do you know what mid-uh they called it um mid-century modern, of course. But there's also the really boxy where there's Bauhaus, right? And then brutalism. But the real boxy one is international style. Does that mean anything to you? International.

SPEAKER_08 51:22

Yeah, I I guess. Because I do remember I used to work at an art museum and they had an exhibition about that, but international.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

It's in my opinion, boring. Yeah. Because again, in my neighborhood, you'll have a Victorian and then a colonial and a Spanish style and even an art deco. Like in LA, there's this like have you ever been to Union Station downtown? No, I don't think it's it's it's Spanish meets um Art Deco. It's very LA, yeah. And so when you have all that in my neighborhood, when you see the mid-century like international stuff, you're like, Yeah. It's just so boxy, you know. I we lost her. So anyway, I'm very excited, truly. Uh, you're speaking our language, and I'm very excited to see. Do you have a trailer playing over there?

What Collectors Want: Nostalgia And Taste

SPEAKER_03 52:12

Oh, uh well, right now we still haven't done like lighting and stuff, but we have like a little short snippets that you could see if you want. Um little teaser, I guess. You can at your booth.

SPEAKER_08 52:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

Okay, I'm gonna come by. I'm very excited.

SPEAKER_08 52:25

Yeah, and then also um if everyone is listening, you can follow us on Instagram. We're posting updates on the internet. Yeah, snapshot.the film.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

Oh, right. Just the film. The film. Yeah. I love it. Snapshot.thilm. Virginia probably already told you, but we can put links in the episode description as well. Oh, okay. And steer people to be great for Instagram.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Yes, we're we are like the purpose of us being here is to crowdfund essentially and like market ourselves, of course. So yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:53

Do you have a QR code at your booth?

SPEAKER_03 52:55

We do.

SPEAKER_01 52:55

You better get back over there and yes, yes, start recruiting people, but we will put any links you want. Do you have a website for the film yet?

SPEAKER_03 53:02

Uh we have like the Instagram and we have the Kickstarter. Uh we can put it here.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Okay, I'm gonna let you fill that out. Thank you so much. You guys are awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for sitting down with us.

SPEAKER_08 53:14

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 53:15

Love you very much.

SPEAKER_08 53:17

Oh, yeah, thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Truly awesome. Thank you for sitting down with us here at CTN Expo. Uh for our listeners, can you just tell us your name real quick? And then to cut to the chase, what brings you to CTN?

SPEAKER_09 53:33

Yes, I'm Chizu. Um I'm a student at Santa Monica College studying animation, and my professor, Rick Farmolo, invited me over to the convention. Rick Farmilo?

SPEAKER_01 53:42

I oh, he's right over there. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Have you said hello yet?

SPEAKER_09 53:45

I have. I was just I just saw his uh his little presentation.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

Yeah, he's one of our. We're gonna drag him over here at some point too.

SPEAKER_09 53:52

Absolutely. He's gotta run soon, so you gotta fetch him quick. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_01 53:55

Yes. Did you hear that, Virginia? Rick might have to run. Rick Farmilo.

SPEAKER_09 54:00

Rick Farmilo.

SPEAKER_01 54:01

Might have to run. He's one of our. It's a little different. Have you come in past years? No, this is my first time. It's quiet. I've done it for 16 years since its inception, and this is the 17th year. Oh my gosh. And uh Tina said it's intentionally more intimate this year. Beautiful. Well But the rain doesn't help, right?

SPEAKER_09 54:19

I think it does, right? If it it does it not add to that intimacy, you know, bringing people in.

SPEAKER_01 54:24

Yeah, but I mean maybe that's why it's quieter. It's just much quieter than in past years. So you came to see Rick, and then what else brought you here?

SPEAKER_09 54:33

Oh, well, I just approached your table because you had some beautiful arcs, you know, and I I asked you, I was like, is that you? Or you introduced yourself, it's pretty quick because you could your signature's all over your arc. Wow, you know, your essence. So it was like, oh.

SPEAKER_01 54:46

I mean, not to get too esoteric too quick, but I taught for 20 years. Do you know Art Center College of Design in Pasadena?

SPEAKER_09 54:54

No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

It's just called Art Center.

SPEAKER_09 54:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

So it's got a very generic name, but it's one of the top design schools in the world. Wow. And then I worked at Disney, you probably heard me say for Lion King, Pocahontas, Hunchback. So Disney often recruited from either CalArts or Art Center. Wow. So it's a good school. But the point is, I taught for 20 years and visual development. So it's amazing how when you don't have reference, you draw like I draw my grandfather for men or my sister for women. It just comes out of me. You can't help it, right? Or you saw a little impish something, right? Something uh do you draw characters that end up looking like yourself?

SPEAKER_09 55:30

I don't think so. I I think um perhaps maybe in more so in feeling, or maybe it's just maybe I'm not good yet. I think maybe that's I'm not that good yet.

SPEAKER_01 55:39

No, well, other people will see it. Okay. That's the other thing, is like you can see people, everything, their worldview, their values, their emotional imprint, and then weird like cellular memory or DNA. Wow, cultural stuff comes out. So a lot of my students are international. But there's always some little like flavor, ethnicity or culture, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 56:04

I think mine is more so probably what would be in the actual pencil of it of the the art as opposed to the actual visual look. Um I guess all that matters is expression, right? Like so.

SPEAKER_01 56:16

So you seem to have a love of storytelling. Did you say you're studying? Is there an animation program at Santa Monica?

SPEAKER_09 56:21

There is. They have uh an associate's degree, they have a certificate. I'm trying to get the associate's degree, but I might get a certificate. Depends on, you know, how that pans out. Is it a longer haul? It's a longer haul, yes, yes, it is. Um but yeah, they they do have that program thing.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

And out of curiosity, what asked do you learn the whole production pipeline and all the departments or which aspect?

SPEAKER_09 56:48

Well, yes, you get you get the fundamentals down, and then uh I think it ends off with sort of uh like uh professional development um and jobs and animation type of thing. So you should be ready. The program says it promises you, it promises to give you foundations to to be able to work in the industry. Yeah, animation.

SPEAKER_01 57:06

I taught foundation of animation at Laguna Art Institute. Uh-huh. And uh traditionally for 2D animation, it was the old bouncing ball test, right? The walk cycle. I'm learning all of that right now. And then a take. So it's those three things bouncing ball, walk cycle, take. Are you learning that in 2D or are you learning it in like Maya or something like that?

SPEAKER_09 57:25

I am learning that in 2D. Oh, right. I do have a Z brush class that I do not like. Sorry to my professor.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

Um I've heard so many, I've mixed, I've heard mixed things about ZBrush. It's very intuitive and user-friendly, and it's a night. People that love Maya say it's not intuitive at all, and it's a nightmare.

SPEAKER_09 57:42

Yeah, I I just I it it's it's hard for me because I just don't want you know, then that's that's part of why it's the whole like I might do the associates degree or not, because I'm not really interested in learning about the 3D stuff, but I know they want to give you sort of a robust um toolkit. Um, so that's why um well, there's speculation.

SPEAKER_01 58:00

I don't know if you've heard that 2D is gonna make a comeback.

SPEAKER_09 58:03

Really? Well that's news to me.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

It's it's the buzz, but yeah, you kind of have a wait and see attitude about it. But I mean I've often sensed that just the archival quality of the physical artwork ha has retained its value. Now there's nostalgia on top of it. There's Gen Z or Alpha, I guess. Gen Alpha. Z or Which one are you? Z. Okay.

SPEAKER_09 58:25

But they Alphas are the iPad kids. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:28

Yeah, I've heard you know they're starved for tactility, whatever. But the when I started believing it is, you know, Andreas Dejat set up a home studio and worked on Mushka this whole time, so he never gave up on it. But now the buzz is true. There's a lot of online articles saying, Oh, yeah, Disney animators, they're not they have nothing green lit for the production pipeline in 2D, but they're absolutely doing little tests and read you know, training the younger animators in everything you just learned, the foundation. So it's real. It's now whether or not it pays off at the box office, and you know, the Bob Igers of the world choose to keep green lighting things, we'll see.

SPEAKER_09 59:08

Well, I'm I'm all here for it because it's it's accessible, you know, it feels more accessible. Um there's so many resources now. You know, we could just go back to pen and paper, but you know, pencil and paper, there's iPad, Procreate, all these software. So I think that's the the that that to me more than anything was the draw. It's just well, I want to get this out. What can help me do this, you know, as quickly as possible? And that's 2D.

SPEAKER_01 59:33

Yeah, I agree. There was a mentality at one time that I mean the recent 3G because the public doesn't storytelling is what matters, right? The technique and the medium and the format does not matter. The public hardly knows the difference. Right. You know, they I've I've conducted little tests, you know, like how did it hit you emotionally? And they'll have an opinion, but I'll say things like uh to an IT guy, a friend of mine who's an IT guy, and I said something about the modeling when we came out of Madagascar. And I said, Did you notice the characters? No offense to anyone. The characters I said something about the polys or you know, the sharp edges on the model, and he goes, The what? And I said, Well, you realize those were modeled three-dimensionally in Maya. He had no idea, and he's an a IT guy.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:20

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:21

But anyway, at Disney, I was there for that whole transition, and the mentality was a paperless system was the goal for a long time.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

And it is more cost efficient. I mean, God knows with AI on the horizon what's gonna happen, but it always there's a cost, right?

SPEAKER_09 1:00:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:37

I think there's uh absolutely, and it's about the intent. But um but I agree with you a little bit, and the tool doesn't matter so much. The storytelling does. Yeah. And uh if you can do it on Procreate in a 2D fashion, go for it. You know, there's room for all of it.

SPEAKER_09 1:00:52

Just tell that story.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

Is that kind of a goal? Do you want to get your own stories out there, like maybe in the festival circuit or no pressure.

SPEAKER_09 1:01:00

I'm just wondering. I think so eventually that'd be the idea. I think right now I I guess it's more it's a bit more intimate for me. I just like I want to act, I want to t I want to do so many things, I want to become so many things, and I can do that with animation. And so I would just love to well firstly I want to do something and want to do it well because I I'm an artist, so I do like have some sort of standard for myself. Um so eventually, yes, I do want to make films that I I do want to I do want to have stories that are competitive in the way that it does not interest me. Because you know when you're when you're s when you're when you're putting out a film, right, you have a chance to change narrative, right? To really prioritize certain conversations and you know you know plant seeds in people's minds. And so I that's that's what when you when you go to these festivals and put your films out there, like that's that's what's in competition. When you're talking talking about storytelling, right? It's who's gonna have this dominant um who's gonna have this power to really have a have a have a a platform to who's gonna have the power to really change, you know, sway public opinion in a way. So I I do I am interested in telling stories that you know are like that. Like I remember when Parasite came in, you know, that's not an animated film, but that was the like last great film I think that I can remember really everyone's talking about. Like that, and that's that's that's what you want. And it's not like the story was crazy or extravagant, but it was just the way it was told, you know. So stories like that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

Yeah, I think I follow you. I mean, the subjective I mean, we're talking a little bit about commercial versus art. Right. Which is as old as time, right? So there are all these conventions and tropes and the Western storytelling structure and all these formulaic things that make a film more commercial, right? They guarantee it'll do well at the box office. Right. But it's kinda like you're saying you want maybe you want to find a balance between your voice as a storyteller and then reaching as many people as you can. Yeah. Because I don't I mean, the only reason I mentioned the festival circuit is because I think there should be a a final step in the creative process that's about what happens when you're done. Does it connect collect dust under the bed? Does it reach one person in a cornfield in Iowa? Does it reach the masses? I think it's very individual and personal, you know? I think but I know that the films I respond to have kind of what you're hinting at, which is a subjectivity, a flair, a worldview. And that has nothing to do with the Almighty Dollar or the box office. I don't know if we're talking about the same thing here.

SPEAKER_09 1:03:44

No, I I think so, because I what I'm you know, we're all artists, right? Like storytelling, language, you know, telling a story. Um but at the end of the day, we have to make a living, right? Um, and I think that's that's really a good idea. You know, that's that's something I have to add.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:00

You're supposed to starve for your art.

Ringling Students Pitch “Snapshot”

SPEAKER_09 1:04:03

No, no, no, I'm not interested in doing that. First of all, I can't do that. Like I I get too worried. Like, you know, I'm I moved here to LA to to to do acting and like I Where are you from? Dallas. Dallas. Originally from Nigeria. Uh oh really? Okay. Oh, that's quite a culture. Yeah, it was. Um, but um, yeah, I had like a whole change. Like I was supposed to went to med no, did not go to med school. My god, it was pre-med. No, I did not, don't know where that came from. Pre-medical. Um, but I had I had sort of this pivot, like I had to fight to sort of give myself the right to to be an artist. Um, so that's where I come from.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

Is it family pressure?

SPEAKER_09 1:04:44

Or so of course, family pressure.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:47

Yeah, there's a whole chap the book that became the podcast. Uh-huh. Just a whole chapter on all the voices you have to silence. Really? And some of it is socialization, some of it's family.

SPEAKER_09 1:04:56

And that's where I'm at now.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:04:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:59

Well, if it'll happen, I do think in a lot of cases you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. But if somebody's a true storyteller, and that's what I was hinting at earlier, is like getting your story out into the world is an end in itself. Yeah. W regardless of the financial element. So that does drive some people, and I think it'll happen if it's meant to be, and um wild horses can't stop you.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:23

Well I mean if you're saying wild horses can't stop you?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:26

Can't stop. Can't stop a true storyteller that's passionate about contributing to the collective. You made me say it. Do you know what I mean? Like uh permission is overrated. Sitting around waiting for permission. Yeah. Life's too short for that. No, it seems like you're doing it, so you're in you're following your passion.

SPEAKER_09 1:05:45

Yes. And I appre I appreciate you for saying that.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

Well, I can't I don't give advice, but there is a whole chapter on my book about finding your voice, I call it. Uh-huh. And then it's like, okay, style is one thing, but the voice that shines through style is a whole nother thing. And it's what I was hinting at earlier. Your worldviews, your values, your um sense of aesthetics, all of that stuff. You can get in touch with it, but until you connect it with a sense of purpose in the world, why do I do what I do? It's just a kind of like a tool in your toolbox. But I do think most artists kind of figure out why they're doing it in the first place, and you seem to have that drive to tell stories. Am I projecting on you?

SPEAKER_09 1:06:29

No, no, I I I I don't think you're projecting. I I I do count what you're saying as a blessing, and so I claim it. You know. Um, so I wouldn't call it a projection. I'm I'm grateful to hear you say those things about me. But I do have a question for you, because you said you don't you don't give advice? Like why just to I apparently Right, you don't give advice, but like why do you don't No no no, I didn't I didn't mean you were giving advice, but like why don't you give advice? Like why like why Because everybody's got their own journey. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:56

You know, in my teaching again, art at Art Center, I really initially the day before starting, this was million years ago, but I taught for twenty years, but I was at Kinkos. Remember Kinkos?

SPEAKER_09 1:07:07

No, I don't really what's that?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:09

I was like I was color Xeroxing something.

SPEAKER_09 1:07:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:11

And a young person came up to me and I said, Yeah, I'm starting teaching tomorrow. And she really challenged me on something, light logic or color theory or perspective or something technical, and I was like, Oh my god, is this what I'm in for? And so early on I would always try to fall back on a tried and true principle so that it wasn't my opinion. I didn't like to say anything definitive, if that makes sense. I got over that the first week. Do you know what I mean? Like, I still like to fall back on foundational principles and or traditions that exist. But I guess I was saying I don't really give advice on one's career trajectory because I do I have twenty-two nieces and nephews, so I gave up a long time on and one of them was an artist, and that's why I say you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. He's an amazing artist. And I threw up, you know what I mean, like opportunities. Storytelling, he's a great storyteller. Maybe animation, maybe live action. He could do anything. He's so talented. But there was something going on. I introduced him to Don Hahn. Do you know who Don Hahn is? No, I don't. Wait, Don Hahn? Don Hahn, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:18

Yeah. Producer of Lion King and Aladdin and Beauty and the Beast. I literally introduced him and he pitched to him, and it didn't really go anywhere. Don gave some very nice advice. Uh-huh. But I just over time learned if he's gonna do it, he'll do it. No matter how many opportunities I try to throw in his way, if that makes sense. It's up to him. It always is. We're all kind of all over the place here. I of course I give advice. I'm getting older now, too, by the way. So he like you find yourself giving unwarranted advice sometimes.

SPEAKER_09 1:08:50

That's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:51

But I I tend to just preach in general, but I think everyone's got their own journey. Yeah. Do you still encounter the family pressure and you still have to quiet those voices and give yourself permission, in other words?

SPEAKER_09 1:09:01

Um well I've I've I've done that. I mean, moving to LA was not that was um that was on my own. Um I saved money from from teaching, actually. So I taught English in Dallas um for a year. Um and substitute teaching is sort of what I do part-time um here in California as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:18

Um but did you teach English as a second language? No, just English. In like the public school system? No, charter school. Charter school.

SPEAKER_09 1:09:25

You're not I'm not certified, so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:30

So what was the biggest um I ha I've lived in LA my entire 57 years. Uh-huh. Wow. Well, I've lived in Paris for work, I lived in Jerusalem for work, I lived in New York for work. But I tend to this is my home. Wow. So I often confirm or deny some of the tropes, you know? What was the biggest culture shock of moving to LA?

SPEAKER_09 1:09:52

You hinted about something like that's when you got over your permission thing, or Well, I I I already intended to that was something I did for myself. I already already intended to do that, so I was gonna get that no matter what. Um but a big change in LA, I I think it's just um, I can have something not positive about LA. Do you want to spotlight LA in a positive way? And I'm not gonna do like, oh, people are like or celebrity. That's not that. Um it's not that at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:25

It's just I think um I'm not like button champing the bit to defend it. Yeah. I mean I've heard it all, but I was just you kinda hinted that it was.

SPEAKER_09 1:10:33

Well I will say that LA has a lot of opportunity here. And I moved here for artistic opportunity, but I found so much more. Like, you know, like there's just um the people, there's so many great organizations here, like nonprofits that really do like a lot of work. Like this city almost it's like it can't function without nonprofits because they're just there's just so much. I I I I almost feel like if I had I gone to high school here, I would have reaped so much more because I think there's just um there's just very much an infrastructure to really help people here somehow. You know, if you're an artist, there are like scholarships or grants or even education out being so accessible here with Santa Monica College, for example. I'm able to I'm I'm a resident, and just because I'm a California resident, my tuition's like Did they do away with tuition entirely? Not not entirely, but um because of my income, like I'm able to just go for it, like almost free.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:31

You know, yeah, it used to when I because I got my GE out of the way in junior college, and then I went to got a lot of it out of the way at Art Center. But um, it was fifty dollars a term when I that a million years ago. But I heard, I thought they passed a measure to make all community free.

SPEAKER_09 1:11:47

Yeah, they do, they do, they do. But that's that's because I already have a degree, so it doesn't get it. Had I not had my bachelor's, I would Yeah, there's an irony there too.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

I was on the re the scholarship review board panel at Art Center, and um it was really up to the department chair ultimately. We would all just whatever he wanted. But you got more money if you already you were awarded more scholarship opportunities if you already had debt. Uh if you already had private scholarships, somehow that moved you up a notch. Oh, that's back. Yeah, that is I don't know why. We're a little off topic. But anyway, yeah, LA, I have heard one distinction between New York and LA. Have you ever hung out in New York?

SPEAKER_09 1:12:31

New York, no, I've never been. And it's I don't I don't find New York attractive. I think it's like too it's too busy.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:38

Well, I used to joke because I went a lot in the early 90s, like even the pigeons are on crack. Like it's fast paced, but even the pigeons, like so I went deep, deep in central because I did work there for um Blue Sky.

SPEAKER_09 1:12:51

How was that as an artist working in such a city like that? Because to me, it just it feels like I imagine something like that to be a headache. Like, how do you have time to almost breathe?

SPEAKER_01 1:13:02

Right. Well, that's where I was headed with my anecdote, is like I went deep, deep, deep in Central Park. There's an area called the Ramble. Like the most wooded part of Central Park. So I'd go with my sketchbook. I never lost sight of a human being ever. So if you're an artist who subscribes to the somewhat romantic idea, do you know Rilkey's letters to a young poet? Yes, I do. So all true inspiration comes from solitude. Yes. I think that's a little romantic, but we all get it, right? True inspiration. You gotta steal your mind, if not complete solitude.

SPEAKER_09 1:13:32

But I never just at Central Park.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:35

Okay, well, you know the ramble. Yeah. I never lost sight of a human being. So I actually found myself going to Brooklyn for peace and quiet.

unknown 1:13:42

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:43

So yeah, we artists need to not just decompress, but we need solitude for inspiration.

SPEAKER_09 1:13:47

Yeah. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:49

So not for me. But I guess my point was like people say, oh LA, everybody's social climbing and you know, trying to they're everybody's ambitious, and it's like, I'm sorry, I grew up here, so I don't see any of that.

Memory, Movies, And A Grandfather’s Love

SPEAKER_09 1:14:01

It's in a certain scene. Uh yeah, it's just you I think if you it's certain spaces that you have to go to really see that, but generally that's not the major like LA is so huge. I was gonna say that's not the majority of people here, actually.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:12

It's whatever you want it to be. It's like a Roarshark test, yeah. So when people say, Oh, the casting coach, or it's so superficial, it's all silicone, and like where do you hang out? Are you hanging out on Canyon Drive in Beverly Hills? Because I don't see that. But that aside, I would the distinction I was trying to make was somebody once said, Yeah, everybody in LA is ambitious. Same as all big cities attract people with dreams. But it's a little more like, and now I'm rethinking it because you have Broadway, you have a lot of creatives in New York, of course. But at one point it was like, mm, it's more like you know, the stock exchange in New York, whereas here, even if they're ambitious and they're social climbers, at least it's founded in you know, something commendable, like a desire to tell stories or change the world or whatever. New York can be a little more consumerist, a little more maybe, um about the rat race, you know.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:05

Well, how do you feel about it then with I'm I'm sure the city's changed, right? And you're like you even I was born in 1968. Yeah. Yeah, but you highlighting I mean you're you you are in great shape for someone born in 1968. Um I hope that's not offensive. Thank you. But yeah, because you just told me that I'm like, wow, really?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:29

But I my point is I've seen it change over the time, yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:33

Right. You've seen the city change, but what you said about it being founded with the this art like art, like artistic.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:41

At least people have a dream. Right.

SPEAKER_09 1:15:43

But now with the money thing, right? We're talking about back to the m to the art versus money. Where do you see that with the city like?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:52

I think it's not affordable at all. Just like New York. It's cost of living is way out of control. Uh-huh. Is that one answer? It's prohibitive. You're making me preach a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_09 1:16:05

I mean more in terms of the driving force behind like, you know, like creating great, like, do you think the city's intentions artistically have have shifted to like something, you know, more like, you know, putting money first, right? Instead of putting the art first.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:19

Like, you know, I don't know if it's an LA thing, but I'll say nobody's gonna want to hear it, but it's you think it's an everywhere thing? Oh yeah, I think the world has changed uh since I've been on the planet hugely.

SPEAKER_09 1:16:31

Well, why not be an LA thing? Because LA is such a huge part of that conversation, right? Hollywood is here, the arts, if if this is the bedrock, right, of art, like why why should it not be an LA thing? Like, why should it not be the responsibility of LA to to to to to take that responsibility and take that blow?

SPEAKER_01 1:16:55

You know, like why not? I'm I'm I'm down for it. Okay. I was just trying to distinguish like LA from the changes I've seen across the board. Okay. I I just was gonna preach a little bit. It just seems like art. You know, I grew up even when I went to art school, you had this stuff pounded into your head, not just letters to a young poet, but what is art? Huh? Well, it's in the eye of the beholder. What is beauty? Well, it's in the eye of the beholder. But you did have certain things like, oh, artistic integrity, literary value. There was this list of things that constitute. Now we're bombarded with no offense to anyone, vacuous content.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:31

And content is very different than story that transforms, right? So advertising hijacks the word story to get in your not like open your heart, but open your pocketbook. Like now these are phrases coming from my book, right? Yeah. So for me, I think we're really lost, and I don't want to be a downer. But people lose some. I mean, even me, I'll watch too many streaming, I'll binge too many shows on Netflix, and I think I don't even know what story is anymore.

SPEAKER_09 1:17:55

It makes me sad to hear you say that. So, what do you what gives you hope these days? Is there anything that you've seen that gives you hope?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:01

Well, do you like um Quarone? Do you know the filmmaker Quarone?

SPEAKER_09 1:18:04

Alfonso Quaron?

SPEAKER_01 1:18:06

Yeah, and he did uh Roma in the mid-pandemic. Yes, yes, yes. And he's one of my favorite filmmakers. And he even said, Alright, this is gonna be a hybrid hybrid release. I recognize it's theatrical, but most people are gonna be watching Roma while make another shopping list or filing their nails at home while doom scrolling, but he was excited about the hybrid release. So I was like, okay, adapt or die, but don't be excited about so that saddened me to hear him say he was excited about a hybrid release. So you know what I mean? I am a dinosaur and I'm a purist. Right. So I do think w it's scary that if I write a screenplay and I go, wow, that doesn't have the cliffhanger like a Netflix, because I do think the writing is genius for streaming. You know, streaming series are pretty genius, but yet it makes me lose sight of, you know, the old independent films, art films, experimental films, foreign films that I grew up with. That like my screenplays, nobody would ever want to make them. I'm the only one that can make them. Because they're not clever enough. Do you know? So I'm just hopeful there will be you know, the pendulum always swings. And then so oh my, this wasn't supposed to be about me. But in the 90s there was do you remember Il Postino, like Water for Chocolate? No, I don't tell them. There was those just the run of Life is Beautiful. There was a run of experimental films that made that got wide distribution. And some of them won Oscars. Il Postino, yeah. Okay. And then it was right around the time Miyazaki's films got distribution through Disney. Because they started recognizing, oh, there is a market for these. So that's hopeful. Like there are pendulum swings where suddenly art has a place, but right now there's so much noise in social media and so much content that I don't know. We need to, I guess, redefine what art is. Sorry, did I get too broad on you there?

SPEAKER_09 1:19:56

No, no, no, you're fine.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:57

What do you think? What's the future of storytelling?

SPEAKER_09 1:20:01

Uh I don't know. I think it's just I think we're just in it right now, so we just have to sort of see. Um I am kind of responding to to what you said.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:13

I I just Well, you probably see a lot more underground, you know what I mean? Like there are there's talent out there. Oh, yeah, and there's always a new form.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:22

But I'm I'm just not seeing it. I'm talking about the mainstream, maybe. The mainstream's tastes are pretty non-existent, you know. Like even I joked on Insta, like, my whole goal is to bore my five Insta followers. Like, I'll frame it, it's art, right? But nobody wants to see a root of a tree. I'll I'll do twisty roots. I'm like, that's gonna get five likes, and I'm okay with that because there's no tits or ass.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:46

That gets the likes, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:47

Yeah, so I it's a scary trend that like people do lose sight. They don't even know art when they see it. Because uh, whatever.

SPEAKER_09 1:20:57

Even even the word content, like calling it con what happened to calling it media? Well like it's just media. What happened to because you know, like language is so important. Content is what? Content what this is content. There this water bottle has content. Right, like it's such an empty word. And I feel like it happened on accident. It started with the YouTubers, they started saying my YouTube con like it was, and then it just picked up, and now we're framing things by content creator, as opposed to titles like social light or um media personality.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:31

If you're a content creator whose goal is not just to contribute to the noise, if your goal is not to open pocketbooks or grow your platform, if you're doing it to contribute to the collective because that's how we fucking evolve as a race, your intentions are in the right place, and you no longer have to call yourself a content creator. You can own, I'm a storyteller, I'm an actual author, I'm a filmmaker, I'm an o' tour.

SPEAKER_09 1:21:57

You know, some people gotta eat, I guess, you know. Um something's gonna train the algorithm for Instagram. Um But I I don't know. I think it's I think they observe a very, a very interesting, you know, space in the digital frontier that we are in. Um I think it's like a job that, you know, I think there's throughout time you have jobs and just like, ugh, what's that job, I guess? Like, and I think it's the content creator now is is that I just maybe just don't like the title. I I think maybe I'm I'm an advocate for the content creators, like they deserve a better It's a reductionist title. Yeah, it's exactly like something more purposeful because you know, and that might change, you know, because sometimes your title like changes where you come from, right? Because even as we're talking, we're talking about artists, you know, if you're drawing or you're making a film or and you're thinking of, oh, is this gonna sell well? No, like you're you know, you're kind of like that like you're being framed by another language, not the artist's language, right? So it's like if you call like we can sort of prophesy, you know, right with a name. Like when people are born, right? People name their children, at least in my culture too. Um names, you know, they carry sort of a promise and like or they become their name. Exactly, or it can become a curse, or you know, so so many things. There's again power and language, right? So maybe con yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:27

It's yeah, well, language of the soul. Language of the soul is the thing. Words are important. Words carry weight, you know? Yes. Um, but yeah, we could retire that term. But I am going, I I'm a dinosaur, I'm allowed to preach. I do think we're hitting a tipping point where we are seeing the downside of the content. I mean, there's brain still some changes in youth, you know, there's literally calcium deposits on the back of the skull. That couldn't be good. There's desensitization, you know what I mean? We gotta turn it around.

Visual Style, References, And Hispanic Roots

SPEAKER_09 1:23:58

I haven't heard about the calcium deposits though.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:00

I don't Okay, but you know about the brain stem. Like there's no executive function capabilities really. I'm a I'm overstating the matter. But there's many studies that that, you know, I guess it's the dopamine fix and that whole addiction. Yes. Uh erodes, the executive function. But the one I'm talking about is before all that. And the headline was millennials are growing horns. You don't remember that? No. And then on further examination, they're not horns, it's just where the tendon attaches to the skull, the there's calcium deposits that are becoming more prevalent in youth because they're always like this. Google it. I'm not making this show up.

SPEAKER_09 1:24:44

I will, I don't think you are. Just haven't heard about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:47

But no, we're just differing a little bit. You're saying the word isn't the best. I'm going on to say, I don't judge anyone. It's an awkward moment where, again, I have 22 nieces and nephews. They're all content creators because there's nowhere to land, right? There are no jobs, they don't want to contribute to the rat race or work for the man. That's all commendable. They want to use their gifts and contribute. That's a beautiful thing. But we're in an awkward place because, yeah, jobs are becoming automated, they're being replaced by AI, and everyone's like, like you said, God gotta make a living, so I'll get a podcast.

SPEAKER_09 1:25:21

Yeah, but this is, you know, this is something. You're you're writing a book. You know, that takes effort, that takes, you know, um you have something to say and you want to say, and you're like, you know, this is an is an extension of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:37

So well, I'm sure we're part of the problem and not the solution, but um yeah, we think we're contributing something worthwhile. But some shirtless content creators bench pressing their cats or cooking naked or reaching for the bottom of drawer in yoga pants, you know, may not be worried about humanity or contributing to it. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_09 1:25:58

It's all they might not recognize what they could be doing. Like more more they could, like, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:05

Yeah. Yeah, maybe we're giving a forum to the tits and ass, something like that.

SPEAKER_09 1:26:10

Anyway, how should we wrap it up? Well, thank you for like, you know, this is um this is a conversation. I felt feelings, you know. Oh, right on. Absolutely. All right. So I uh thank you for engaging with me and giving me this, you know, thank you to your partner as well. She's just nodding and smiling for me. Being so welcoming.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:30

It's true. Yes. Um, well, we'll insert your comments in the metadata. Anyway, yeah, thank you so much. And what are you gonna do for the rest of the convention? Do you have a four-day pass? I do. I do.

SPEAKER_09 1:26:42

So um, yeah, I'm just I'm just here to explore. Some people I want to meet, I want to meet Ron Husband. I don't know where he is.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:48

Um You've never met him?

SPEAKER_09 1:26:50

No, I've never met him before. I need to meet him.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:52

Does he have events on the schedule or does he just have a booth?

SPEAKER_09 1:26:55

I saw him on the thing on the website. I uh it's hard to like my friend has a schedule. I'm here with my friend too, so I I I think I lost him.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:03

Um but uh but yeah, I uh I worked with Ron for 11 years. Oh no way. And then both his kids, do you know his children? No, I don't know beautiful human beings.

SPEAKER_09 1:27:13

I don't know though.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:14

They both interned at Disney. Wow. And then he went over to Disney Publishing, I believe. Is that where he is now?

SPEAKER_09 1:27:19

Run husband? I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:20

I think he's at Disney Publishing. And so I would freelance for them and I would often go in and see him. So yeah, we have a big history together.

SPEAKER_09 1:27:26

Wow, please, if you well, if you see him, tell him I'm looking for him.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:30

I will. You'll find him. I think he has a booth, but he's definitely doing advanced schools. He has a booth hanger? I don't know.

SPEAKER_09 1:27:36

I know he's on the schedule, but I'm gonna run in there. Find him.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:40

He's very approachable. You'll very nice guy. All right, thank you again. Alright, enjoy the rest of the what convention, I guess? Yes. All right, man. Thank you for sitting down with us. Of course. Take care. People know who you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:52

I am Ed Gertner, uh, master of layout. No, I'm just kidding. Um I have spent uh forty-five years in the business and uh went to CalArts for four years. And from CalArts I went straight into Disney and worked on movies from Fox and the Hound through what was the last one I did? Um short projects like uh Lorenzo the Cat, but the feature w the last feature I did was uh Atlantis.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:28

Okay. You just named two of like my favorite films. So I liked Fox and the Hound and I liked Atlantis.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:34

And years apart.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:35

And they're years apart. I I remember going to see Fox and the Hound as a little girl, and I cried my eyes out.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:42

That was an interesting uh movie to work on because um it was a crossover time at the studio. The old guys were still there, and the younger guys like us were trying to come in and and and show what we can do. And um frustrating for both sides. But um I was lucky enough to be able to um work on the last shot of a I think it was a multiplane, I think it was the last production multiplane shot that they used in a in a feature. Somebody said I think they used it in one of the other features, but anyway, uh it was uh the last shot of the uh picture. And I learned how to actually set a shot up on the multiplane camera, and um which was a lot of fun, but it was also very tedious and I was extremely nervous because they told me when I first got it, we've got five levels, that's all you've got. It's gotta be in one take. And I, okay, we'll try this. Um so because it was on film, we shot it, and two days later we got the film back, and there was one little jump in it. And so I said, We gotta do it over. And they said, Well, now you've got three levels. And I said, Well, wait a minute, I have to refigure all the moves to make it three levels, and it's gonna take me even longer to why can't I just reshoot it? And they said, Well, it takes ten people, two people per level, to shoot this, and the money was tight at that time. And so uh I had to reset it up and luckily the final the three l layers were. Um but at the same time working on that picture there were problems that came up and uh Glenn Keene had uh taken on the bear fight sequence. Okay, and he it it was very not uh extreme, not exciting enough. So he reset it up and I laid it out for him to do, and so once that came in, everybody's going, oh yeah, that's it, that's it. So it was really nice to see yes, younger guys being able to creep into the world of the the older guys that were had been established there, and then um after that I went on to uh the black cauldron, and that was quite interesting. It was um that was very tedious in layout. We it was C scope, which meant that it was really wide and very narrow. Yeah, and the art director at the time wanted us to cross hatch, which means just taking a pencil on the side and and draw lines instead of a single line for shapes. He wanted us to render it all.

unknown 1:32:07

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:08

And there's usually about twelve hundred to two thousand scenes, and there were ten or twelve of us in in layout at the time. And it was going on and on and on, and the and the background painters weren't following the cross hatching. So why were we doing that? And I found out it was he just wanted them to look good.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:35

So and I'm curious because Black Cauldron ended up getting kind of closeted for a while. It so how was it like to see a f a film you worked on that basically in many ways is kind of has like a c is known as a cult classic now to like see that happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:53

Well, it's funny because I I wasn't having a good time, and I knew that it wasn't it wasn't being done the way I was taught.

unknown 1:33:03

Right.

Crowdfunding, Sound, And Release Strategy

SPEAKER_00 1:33:04

And here I am at Disney, and I said, uh, you know, I'm just not feeling it, basically. And luckily for me, um they were setting up a unit to do animation for Epcot and Tokyo Disneyland. Okay. And so what I they I they came to me and they said, Would you like to be an art director on uh I was 22, 23. Okay. I said, Yeah, yes, I'm gone. Bye. And uh and so I went that way and Cauldron kept going. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:39

Did its own little storyline of appearing and disappearing and reappearing.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:43

Yeah, and and what happened there what happened there was uh management changed. Okay. Uh that was the movie where a lot of the older guys retired or they were pushed out, or however they left the studio, and the younger guys started coming up. Um and I was glad I wasn't in all that mix because it was uh the the head director retired and the other directors switched uh sequences and they redid sequences that were already done in color, which I don't know how management allowed them to do that, but they did. And um so I was off doing my my thing with uh Florida and Tokyo and then came back onto uh Mouse Detective.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:43

Oh, another one I know of all.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:44

And I was able to be art director for about six to eight months before they took me off of that. Uh we went through three or four different art directors, and uh management wasn't sure who they wanted, and it it just kind of rolled around a little bit. But uh in the end, it looked good, it was a nice story. Um uh I got caught up in politics.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:21

Uh not my doing, but nature of the business. I got caught up in it, and uh I just didn't like what was going on, and I wanted to be at Disney forever. Yeah, and they had paid for my schooling, and you know, so I like, well, you know, give me something else to do. But I I got an offer from uh Phil Roman to do the Garfield TV specials. Okay, and I said, Okay, I'm gone. And uh figuring that maybe when things smooth out I'll I'll be able to come back, which they did.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:58

Yeah, I was gonna say, because you came back. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:00

And uh but I spent a year doing the Garfield specials, and then after I even came back, I did more uh Garfield stuff as a freelancer. And uh but I came back and I went to Disney TV, they had just started TV division, and I worked on um uh duck tails. They had they had done uh fluppy dogs and gummy bears. And then now the next one was DuckTales. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:35

And uh so I'm curious as you're talking about because you went from doing film to now you're doing more like these, you know, basically Saturday morning cartoon, you know, morning cart cartoons. What what was that like to go from a film to like something that's a constant running storyline?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:51

That's the thing, and and we had all the time in the world on the features. I mean, it was just like uh you really should probably uh in production, if there's keys, a layout key, you should be able to do a layout one a day, maybe, maybe day and a half, which means you should have five turned in by the end of the week.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:16

Well, at TV, uh when I got onto DuckTales, there were two of us doing a 22-minute show, and DuckTales, they went everywhere in the universe. And uh the two of us, we each had a show a piece. We had to do 30 layouts in one week. That's a lot, and we were after about a month, we both went in and said we can't keep doing this. That's way too much. And so they they cut it back for us, you know, how much that we could do. You know, the writers could just compress it a little bit. Um but uh as you were saying, uh it was fast. You had to get it done, and it had to be right the first time. Right. Which I enjoyed because it was like, good, I'm done, it's off.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:13

Yeah, off to the next project.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:15

Rather than uh I'll just draw, and then I'll draw again, and then I'll draw some more. It was nice to be able to do that and get paid for it, but you know, mentally as an artist, you want to just put it down and and move to it.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:36

Yeah. So I'm curious because you also said, you know, because you the writers had to condense it, so I know for me, I've always thought, oh, you guys are in there with the writers and you're storyboarding it out, and so it sounds like that's not always the case when it's on TV.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:51

Yeah. Okay. So really how it worked was we got a script, and it was like, okay, exterior of the house. Uh you know, in about an hour you had a rough, and that by the end of the day you had to have at least a a finished layout. And uh, and that would go overseas.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:17

What was one of the projects you enjoyed the most working on in your career?

SPEAKER_00 1:39:21

Uh which movie or TV?

SPEAKER_05 1:39:24

Any of them.

A Student’s Path, 2D’s Future, And Purpose

SPEAKER_00 1:39:26

I actually liked pretty much everything I worked on. There's a couple things later on in my career that I didn't have much fun doing. Um it was unfortunate, but uh I think when management saw us just as workers, okay. Just get this done. Here's the idea, just get it done. We lost the interest lost. Yeah. In the uh the the emotion lot got lost. You weren't as passionate about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:05

So the passion was starting to go in those moments. And that's hard, because I mean that's what you get into doing this, right? Is because you're passionate. Yeah, yeah. And and unlike, you know, someone who uses words to write a book or um like how we've got the podcast here, I mean, your expression is through the artwork.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:26

And as a good ex as an example, after DuckTales, um Disney decided to do the the Winnie the Pooh series. Okay. They had done the two uh shorts back in the 60s. Now we're gonna do the series. And I was art director, and I went back, I said, you know, people see Winnie the Pooh, and especially Disney Winnie the Pooh.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:51

I gotta look at what was done before, but add something to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:57

So that's what I did. Uh and there were 22-minute shows, and it got to the point where we were like, what do we do with this stupid bear? You know, 22 minutes is believe it or not, is a long time. It's like, oh bother. So we suggested that we would do we did a couple, one season of 22 minutes, and then after the first season, um the producer who was the writer didn't want to be the producer anymore. And so he wanted to just go back to writing. And I I and somebody else was asked if we wanted to direct and produce, and I said, sure. So that was a change. So I jumped up into directing and and producing, but I was still art directing also.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:54

So how did you like that when it came to telling stories?

SPEAKER_00 1:41:57

Oh, that was great. I mean, because I had full reign.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:00

You know, I didn't have to go, uh, I don't want you to do that, yeah. Only in my own head.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:06

So you feel like the creativity was more there for you.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:09

Yeah. And we had such good artists that uh I know that if I came up with an idea and if somebody else got a hold of it, it would be good.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:20

And that uh I won a Emmy for that. Oh wow. And um it was a good time because I had to stretch the Winnie the Pooh idea because it like we said, you know, I mean how many things you know, he grabs a honeypot, he does the chase being chased by bees. Yeah. So what we did came up with the idea of let's have each the other characters tell part of their story rather than just Winnie the Pooh. So we took ideas from Tigger and and Eeyore and and Piglet and and even uh Christopher Robin. And we did a I think that was a 22-miniter that we did with Christopher Robin of Crud, who was the monster under the bed because the kids throw all their stuff under the bed. Right. That it was so messy, his mom told him to clean it up, and the monster was crud, and they they shrink and they go underneath the bed. So that was we tried to take the story and stretch it out, kind of like what's happening now with with Wicked. Right. You know, where you had the story but take it from somebody else's point of view. Exactly. And I was able to do uh film noir, like with uh Tigger. Uh-huh. We did the I can't remember the name of the show now, it's it's been 40 years. But uh it was black and white. I have Monster Franken Pooh, that's what it was. I'm gonna have to go find that now because I'm a Tigger fan, so yeah, and it was fun because we did a section and then we came back into the hundred acre woods area. Yeah. Um it came to the point where I had suggested that we give Tigger his own house because he lived with um Piglet in his house.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:19

I guess I never thought about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:20

And so I what I had thought was let's do another 22, that there's another flood in the hundred acre woods, and the guys feel sorry for Tigger, and so all the stuff that gets pushed into the hundred acre woods, they took a barrel and all sorts of stuff, and they built Tigger his own house, a tree house.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:43

The tree house, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:45

And uh I built a model of it, but management didn't go for it.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:51

I still got the model at home, but oh wow, because I mean I know in the Tigger movie he's got the tree house, but yeah, now that you mentioned, like I never thought about it in the original Winnie the Pooh movies, yeah. He doesn't really have a house.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:02

Right, right. And so there it was it was things like that. And uh after that I did um um Hello, I'm losing age, right? Gets to us. Yeah, it it too many things in the head. Um not Rescue Rangers, but at the same time we were doing uh blue um oh my god, uh band um You'd mentioned Atlantis.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:33

Was there one what was before that?

SPEAKER_00 1:45:36

Forgetting Tailspin.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:37

Oh yeah, Tailspin. That's it.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:38

So I do I directed uh thirteen episodes of Tailspin.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:42

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:43

And that was fun because it was more teenage. Uh it wasn't so uh simple a story. Yeah. And we could do different things. We had bad guys, you know. And uh I had my 13 episodes in production already. Some overseas, a couple have had come back, and I got a call from Features.

unknown 1:46:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:10

And they said, How'd you like to be layout supervisor on a show called uh Beauty and the Beast? And I went, Really? Well let me find out because I had a contract.

SPEAKER_07 1:46:22

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:23

And I said, Yeah, I would love to. So I went back to they allowed me to go back to Features and um they had just brought back Beauty and the Beast from England. Uh uh the Perthams, who were a couple in um London who had done films, uh were gonna do Beauty and the Beast, but management didn't like the direction it was going in. It was very stodgy, very European and uh too realistic for 'em, I think. And it was. I I've but uh they grabbed about twenty of us and they threw us on the main lot and said, we want to see a sequence in three months. Uh being in Jeffrey Katzenberg's office, and he said, and if you guys can't do that, we we're just gonna have to close down feature animation.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:17

And we're like they're like, no, that's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:22

And so uh we went and we did be our guest.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:27

And they they loved it, of course. And so uh I got to design the castle part of the castle. I was I should say uh it was the final design. There's so many people who work on all this stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:40

Right, there's a team of you.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:42

Yeah, so I did the final design on that, and I designed actually all the design on her house, uh, Belle's house. Okay. Um we had meeting one day with Jeffrey Katzenberg, who was in charge at the time, and uh the original thought was that Belle lived in town, but she felt an outsider. And I thought, well, if she feels like an outsider, let's make her an outsider. Yeah. Because her dad, her dad's a wacko. You know, he's the guy that I know that lives down the street that has all the cars on the front yard because he's tinkering with everything. And so I put my drawings up, and Jeffrey walked through and he said, Oh, that's kind of interesting. She's living in town. Uh and I said, Well, let's let's look at it as if she feels like an outsider, then let's make her that and put her house outside the town with her dad's junk out in the front yard, because that's what you would see in real life.

SPEAKER_04 1:48:53

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:53

And he went, Oh, okay. And everybody else kind of went, What? You got Jeffrey to what? That's where that came from. And um I in my career I was a designer, and then when production came around, I was layout supervisor. So I could uh I already had my drawings that I could hand out to the crew and and I in general we had fifteen to twenty people on the layout crew. But uh films used to take feature films would take about three to four years at Disney. And uh on this one when we started production, um it was almost one year to the day that we did all the layouts for.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:50

That's fast.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:52

And we yeah, it was. And uh it showed how not necessarily, I mean, we did it fast, but it was still good. There were some things I'd like to probably change now. Yeah, you look at it go, well, we should have.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:06

We had a good collaboration of a team.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:08

We we did it.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:10

Wow. So I'm curious because working on Beating the Beast, now that they've done the live action, which I'm sure that must be hard as someone who's like, I worked in animation, you know, I was in feature film for Disney, and then now it's live action.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:26

It's hard to hear what certain people made.

SPEAKER_05 1:50:32

That's true, because you're paying yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:35

Because we made good money at Disney. I mean, I I granted, you know, we weren't millionaires, but we made decent money. But when you see people who were using our films and copying our camera moves and staging and they're making like ten million dollars, that kind of sticks in your ribs.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:07

Right. And then I'm like, and don't get me wrong, I mean, I the live action wasn't bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:12

Because I was concerned, because I mean No, it was okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:15

Yeah, it was okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:16

Because Beauty of the Beast as as a as a featured film was it is a I mean, it's a classic.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:51:22

And so you when they made like they added some songs and they made some changes, and that's the hard part because you're like, but this isn't this isn't the show I grew up on, you know, this isn't the movie I'm used to.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:36

It it's a strange thing in Hollywood that I've noticed. The companies, I and I understand the business end of it. You want to put something out that's pre-sold. Great, it's pre-sold. You know, you can do one, two, three, and four. But at the same time, you know, what what are you trying to do with it? Yeah, how how and for me it was uh we uh because I was a part of it, I art directed the human again sequence that we did at tenth I think it was the tenth year anniversary. Okay. And we did we added uh the human again song to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:20

So at that point, you know, I had done all the the original stuff, so I added when we added that sequence in there, it looked like the picture.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:30

But nowadays they want to change it. Yeah. And to me, when you're telling a story, you want it to resemble what the people remember it as.

SPEAKER_05 1:52:42

What the magic was about that story.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:44

That's what the magic was, and I think that's what's making uh Wicked work, because they they caught the magic of the art that was in the original Wizard of Oz, yeah, pushed it up a bit, and you're telling a different story, and to me that's brilliant. Right. Because you're using the story in some way and changing it so that you get a different point of view. Yeah. And to me that's great. Uh I had problems later on when Disney tried to do DuckTales, the new version of DuckTales.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:27

Yeah, I heard that they were trying to redo that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:29

And to me, as a businessman, you already have all the the designs. You've got backgrounds, you've got the characters, you've got animation. Right. And now you want to change the design of the characters and where they live, and you're you're to me, you're you're defeating the purpose of wanting to do more other than making it look different.

SPEAKER_05 1:53:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:55

But people they w if you want if the people want to see it, they want to see what was originally done. They don't want something new.

Art Vs. Content: Language And Intent

SPEAKER_05 1:54:03

Yeah. It's false. That's how I felt with so as my when my kids started growing up, because that's what happened kind of with um gosh, I I know it wasn't trying to remember what was with Mickey Mouse, and they but it went from like the traditional feeling of of Disney animation to this I don't even know what to call it, weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:22

Yeah, weird looking. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:54:24

They just they looked weird.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:26

Warner Brothers got away with it. And this is my example of what I was saying with uh oh my god. The two my uh the uh um is it not chip and doe? Their their lineup that Spielberg did. Um my god, um there goes the brain again uh uh and the maniacs. Oh yes, yes because they did the first group and they stopped doing it.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:03

And it was ten or fifteen years later and they redid it not too many years ago, uh-huh. But they used the same character design and the same some of the same people.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:15

They didn't want us who worked on the first duck tails to be on the second one. Yeah. And to me through my education and talking to people who've been in the business, whether it's live action or animation, you don't want to lie to your audience.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:33

Because there's somebody out there who knows what's what a lie is.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:38

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:39

And um that falls into our politics these days. But I won't go there.

SPEAKER_05 1:55:46

Yeah, no, I understand. No, but you're right, because there's kind of like the the nostalgia's there, and yeah, and even even if when the younger generation comes up, the point is their parents, you know, their grandparents, like all of that's being instilled in that.

SPEAKER_00 1:55:59

If they know about it, they've seen the old stuff.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:01

Yeah. And so when they change it, because I I remember looking at some of the new new animation with with Disney on, you know, my kids watch the Disney Channel, they're all older now, but when they were growing up, and I'm going, they kind of look balloonish. Like they just they don't have like there was no softness to them. It just it it was like CGI and I don't know what tried to have a child on this on the TV screen.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:24

It's if if an audience knows notices that that sort of thing, it's the same thing in The Wizard of Oz. Yeah, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. Right. You know, and it shouldn't be. It should be this is what it is.

SPEAKER_05 1:56:41

Yeah. You know, but then I have I have heard that there is kind of like a renaissance coming back in the art world of old animation because people miss the the tactile weight it just presents on the screen.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:57

It's funny because I've taught um a few times and I like giving lectures, and animation is exactly what the term is. It's it's taking a drawing and making it move. Yeah. And whether it's C G or AI or whatever, it's gotta start with a drawing. And uh you gotta put it down on paper, or you're just I don't want to say cheating. You're you're you're grabbing parts of something that doesn't work together and trying to make it work. Yeah. And um that's not animation. That it's it's a form of art. Right.

SPEAKER_05 1:57:45

But it's not I feel like it's not relatable.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:49

Yeah, yeah. It's almost like moving illustrations or moving uh advertising. Yeah. Um because even my teachers came out of back in the twenties, came out of uh advertising. Okay. And and they taught me what they had to do to make a person look at an advertisement. They had to force the viewer to read all the the either the type or what the pictures are. Right. So they had to do multiple horizons and you had it you had to draw so that it would carry the eye down to where you wanted them to see. Yeah up or wherever.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:37

Right, to to basically dr to bring the viewer into that.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:40

And the only difference with being in animation is that you had a camera to move.

SPEAKER_05 1:58:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:58:45

And basically they were doing storyboarding. And uh even today uh the famous directors, even live action, use storyboarding. A lot of people don't these days. They they'll get in and they'll they'll put characters into a or whatever you want to call them, into a uh uh uh a program, yeah, and move them around and go, this is what I want. Which is okay, but when you get on the real set, what are you what are you looking for? Uh things things progress and things change and and having uh computers helped me a lot because um you can change something in a hurry, you know, control, you know, control Z. You can draw control Z. It's really strange for me now because when I'm actually drawing, I'll do something and I'll just be free-forming and and I'll go, well, I'll just take this up. Oh. I have to get an eraser and erase the line.

SPEAKER_05 1:59:58

Like, oops.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:59

Yeah, I can't press a button to let it make it go away.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:02

Right. But I was gonna say too, with the way all you know, animation was done before we really got into like the computer animation, right? The CGI and now we have AI.

SPEAKER_06 2:00:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:00:13

Um, I feel like, as you said, you know, now animation is you know put it into like this the screen, right? And uh and it's I always think of it kind of like a green screen kind of concept, basically. And so you don't have the background, you don't have all the stuff around. I feel I feel like it loses its presence, it's its humanistic quality to it.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:33

It it's a for me, animation is a true uh uh group effort. It needs to be because I've I worked at Disney for a long time. Time, I could go, it would go f I would be in the meetings, the story meetings, and I would then I would be in with the storyboard guys because the key shots would probably be done by layout people and the storyboard guys would do the character poses.

SPEAKER_04 2:01:02

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:03

Um and then after that we would lay it out because we did the key poses and then give that to the animators. And then after that it would come back to us and we would give it to the cleanup people, and then it would come back and we'd give it to uh at the same time actually when it was being cleaned up for animation, the layouts would go to background. Right. So at that point we had like two people we had to answer to clean uh the cleanup animators and because if we had something um like a car driving on a on a road, uh huh, we had to make sure that it stayed on the road, right? And um if there if it went behind a tree that wasn't an overlay, a separate level, we had to put a registration line. So we we had to deal with background and then at the same thing with the the animation, yeah. They they had to have the same registration line to make sure that they didn't draw past that point. So and then you would see it each time in in dailies and go, okay, it's working, it's working, it's working, and hopefully you never saw oh, it's not working. Um but nowadays uh everything, you know, people can work at home, they could be in a different country. Yeah, it's strange for me. I bet. But people like uh Sergio Pablos who did um uh Klaus, they did it in about six different countries. And you know, each sequence that was good. You can if you're smart, you know, you you send them a group, a a sequence, and let those people do those. But to put it all together and have that's gotta be strange. Yeah because you want to know how where's it going, you know, and if they don't do all of it in one place, like you know, that animate it in Brazil and bring it up here to be painted, what if something that they did in Brazil doesn't work, who fix it?

SPEAKER_05 2:03:14

Right. Yeah, that causes a problem.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:17

That it and and that goes into the cost. Yeah. You know, you gotta stop it, you gotta return it, or you gotta get somebody to do it. Yeah. So i it's it's an industry that has to be balanced between inspiration, what you can do, and money and cost because it's not cheap. Uh the time the period about uh Beauty and the Beast on, it was a million dollars a minute.

SPEAKER_05 2:03:52

Oh, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 2:03:53

And and the movies were 90 minutes long. Yeah. So And that's if it went smoothly. Right. So yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:04:03

It's it's fascinating what it takes. Well, I don't want to keep much more of your time, but here's here's the one thing I want to to end on because I'm kind of curious. So the whole premise of our podcast, of course, is you know, life is story. And so I'm just wondering, out of all the years that you've been working on various, you know, ways of telling story, what what does that mean to you when you hear that? Like, you know, what does story mean?

SPEAKER_00 2:04:29

Um as a kid, I didn't have so a lot of friends my age. So it it was up to me to find my own thing to do. And so it was like, well, either draw or build things and fantasize about what what I could do. Um and when I go to a theater and I see an audience watching what I have done, uh-huh, or somebody, you know, with a uh a stuffed animal or something that from what I have done, it makes me feel good because they got what I got. Yeah, and uh I did it well enough that people really enjoy it. I get more pleasure out of people seeing what I've done or what we've done and enjoying it than you know, me just completing something and and putting it out there and going, okay, next Right.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:31

Well and think I think what I'm also hearing that too is when you're seeing the audience, you know, when you're in the theater and they don't know that you've worked on this project, right? Or like you said, you know, I see somebody walking around the stuffed animal from a movie that I worked on. It it's also the fact that, oh wow, they get they get what we were trying to do. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:50

And and and communication is working.

SPEAKER_05 2:05:53

Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't matter what were what our walk of life is, we all were able to share in that together.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:00

The only thing that bugs me is when I run into somebody that says, Oh, I saw that when I was a kid. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for making me feel old. I thank you.

SPEAKER_05 2:06:11

Well, I'm sorry I said that I I I saw the Fox and the Hounds again. But here's the thing: it is still my all-time favorite movie, just so you know. Which one? The Fox and the Hound. It is my all-time favorite movie. The Hunter. I love that I love that movie to this day.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:25

The one time I can say, well, we can go if you want to shut it off. Um I worked on Fox and the Hound 2 for when Disney was doing their directed videos. Uh-huh. And it just wasn't the same. It wasn't the same. I did a little bit of work on it.

SPEAKER_05 2:06:43

Well, it's one of my it's it is my favorite movie, but thank thank you for coming on and uh spending some time with me.

SPEAKER_01 2:06:50

Thank you. All right. Thank you so much for listening in. That was it for day one. That's all the interviews we got, and it was more than enough. We feel like we struggled and couldn't be happier with the inspiring content. So, in that spirit, please do tune into part two, day two. We caught up with Russ Edmonds, Mark Andrews, Seth Kearsley, Aaron Blaze, and Joshua Pion. Some more iconic Disney legends. And uh, you know, animation artists get around too, so even if they're Disney legends, they also may have worked on a DreamWorks film or a Pixar film or two. So, uh yeah, I d I think you need to tune in, just my opinion, tune in to the second day at CTN Expo in our second episode. Remember, life is story, and we can get our hands in the clay individually and collectively, we can write a new story. See you next time.