Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
In a world where storytelling has been our link to the past since the days of cave drawings, there exists a timeless tradition. It's the art of passing down knowledge, and for Military Veterans, it's a crucial piece of their legacy. Join us on the Veterans Archives Podcast, where we dive deep into the heartwarming and awe-inspiring stories of those who served, no matter when or where.
Here, Veterans get the chance to be the authors of their own narratives. Through guided interviews in a relaxed and safe environment, they paint their experiences with their own words and unique voices. The result? A memory card in a presentation box, a precious gift they can share however they please.
But that's not all. These stories find a secure home in our archive, a treasure chest of experiences for future generations to explore. The best part? It's all a gift to the Veteran – our way of saying thank you for their service.
Tune in to the Veterans Archives Podcast, where history, heroism, and heartwarming tales come to life.
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Veterans Archives: Preserving the Stories of our Nations Heroes
A Soldier, A Teacher, A Lifelong Learner (Jerry Ockert)
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A sleigh rescue from a blizzard. Kerosene lamps in a farmhouse without electricity. A young man drafted during Korea who ends up rebuilding Europe’s engines and then, decades later, rebuilding how young Americans learn to drive. Jerry Ockert's 95-year journey is the kind of story you can feel in your bones—practical, principled, and full of turns that make perfect sense in hindsight.
We sit with Jerry as he traces a line from horse-drawn fields and Catholic classrooms to factory shifts stamping jerry cans, grueling nights in a state hospital, and a draft notice that rerouted him to Germany and France. He explains how typing got him from the motor pool to an office, how coal stoves kept tents warm, and how a rocking troop ship taught him to grip a tray and his stomach. Back home on the GI Bill, setbacks piled up before clarity clicked: marry Kathy, study physics and math, and teach with purpose. In Portland, Michigan, he built a driver education program that blended the physics of motion with the psychology of attention, led bargaining tables with a steady hand, and adopted four children through persistence and faith.
When policy winds shifted, Jerry moved his family to New Mexico in a Ryder truck and a camper, facing cultural barriers that humbled and taught him: you can’t motivate someone else, only craft the space where motivation can take root. Texas A&M opened a new chapter—adult learners, research grants on seat belt effectiveness, partnerships, and a dissertation turning fieldwork into evidence. Michigan called him back to write the rules, modernize driver education, and navigate the politics that ultimately shifted instruction from schools to commercial providers. His lens on teen driving, distractions, and competency-based learning is frank and earned.
Jerry doesn’t coast in retirement. He teaches summers, mentors instructors, helps a colleague complete graduate research, and builds a side business that rewards patience and ethics. Through it all, he reads daily, takes care of his health, and returns to a simple creed: learn for life and do the right thing, not the popular thing. If you care about education, road safety, adoption, veterans’ stories, or just what it takes to keep moving forward with grace, you’ll find something here to carry with you.
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Today is Tuesday, March 10th, 2026. We're talking with Jerry Ockert, who served in the United States Army. Good afternoon, Jerry.
Speaker 1Good afternoon.
Speaker 6Thank you for having me in your home today.
Speaker 1Thank you for inviting me to do this.
Speaker 6Absolutely very welcome. We're going to start out with just a simple question. When and where were you born?
Speaker 1I was born on September 9th, 1931, at our farm home in Grand Travers County.
Speaker 6Okay, so you were up north then?
Speaker 1We had in the postal service of Kingsley. It's about 15 miles south of Trevor City.
SpeakerOkay.
Speaker 1I went to a 1 through 12 school, parochial school, Catholic parochial school. It was just two miles. And the first year we had no business. We wanted to school.
Speaker 6No matter what the weather, right?
Speaker 1No matter what the weather.
Speaker 6Yeah.
Speaker 1And two miles was a long way for a little guy.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1Anyhow, I can remember one storm. I don't know if you want this.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1Kinds of things. I can remember one storm during that first year. It was so bad that my father, with a horse and sleigh, came to the school and picked us up. And all of the other children that lived in our doors. Children that couldn't find a way home stayed in the school open.
Speaker 5Oh my.
Speaker 6Yeah. The memory's a funny thing. So tell me, you came from a big family. How many brothers and sisters did you have?
Speaker 1I have there were 13 of us. A 14th one died right after birth.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 1But anyhow, seven boys, six girls. And uh there were just three children younger than I. So some of the older children were already gone before my memory picked him.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1Um we never had enough room at the table. But we had a big deal. And we ate well, being on a farm, even though this was, I guess maybe following, right, immediately after the Big Depression, being on a farm, we grew most of what we ate. Um, meat and potatoes, vegetables, and every fall we butchered beef and a number of hugs. And um and farmers learned how to store uh certain produce to keep it reasonably well during the winter months. Um I can remember that uh um my father and older brothers would dig uh somewhat of a pit, not really deep, a couple feet deep, and then um store potatoes in there, and uh then cover it with earth and straw fur, then earth, and uh avoided the frost, so they guarded against the frost. And uh some of those kinds of things then would still be available in the spring. Um most of the potatoes though were stored in the basement of the house. Unfortunately, you know, over time they start sprouting and so on. Um my mother canned a lot of food, including the beef that we butchered. Um the pork that was butchered was packed and saw in wooden barrels, and that preserved it for a long period. All winter.
Speaker 6No big freezers or anything like that involved. Yeah.
Speaker 1And in fact, there was not even ice delivery for uh, well, in the early years we did not have electricity.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1In my earliest memory, we had a telephone to the wall, but uh we had no electricity. Um therefore we had there was seen burning lamps in the house and lanterns in the barn. And um, in fact, about a couple of years ago, um I sent an antique lamp that was about, excuse me, it rose about three feet up to my son in Japan.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1Um, he wanted that for my beloved. So anyhow, let me come back. Um so after I graduated from high school, and there were only six graduates in my senior year. In the tenth grade there were 22 of us.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1But in those times, um, remember that the depression was just finishing.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1So the boys were dropping out of school as soon as they legally could, getting a job. Um, some of the girls were getting married. Um so classmates diminished in number until only six of us graduated.
Speaker 6Was it important for your parents that you have an education?
Speaker 1Yes, it was.
Speaker 6So they made sure that you were gonna finish school.
Speaker 1And um they education was so important to them that if I got into trouble in school, I had to account to my parents also.
Speaker 6That keep you out of trouble most of the time?
Speaker 1Most of the time.
Speaker 6Yeah, I can I can see that.
Speaker 1And my father was a rather strict disciplinarian. Fair, but strict.
Speaker 6You knew what the rules were, right? And what the consequences were.
Speaker 1My mother was a little more gentle, uh-huh. Um compassionate, I guess, is the Bible word. So I knew that if I wanted to ask about something, I weighed the options.
Speaker 8Right.
Speaker 1What's my father gonna say? What's my mother gonna say? Maybe I should go to her.
Speaker 6So you had to ask the right person the first time out, right? That's right. Yeah, absolutely.
SpeakerYou improve the chances of success.
Speaker 6Yes. So you uh you you uh made it through school uh all in the same building, all of the same schoolroom, right?
Speaker 1All in the same buildings.
Speaker 6Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1And number of rooms. Okay I don't remember the early grades, yeah, but um the number of students was probably large enough that every grade was separated by itself.
Speaker 5Okay.
Speaker 1Um, probably.
unknownOkay.
Speaker 1Um and we were taught by the nuns in the Catholic organizations. And uh they were strict.
Speaker 6I was gonna ask, are those stories true? Like, I mean, you they were pretty strict on you, weren't they? The nuns? So you had it at school and you had it at home. Like there was no getting away with anything.
Speaker 1I can remember the nuns wrapping my hand with a ruler.
Speaker 6I've heard those stories, so they are true. Yeah. So so what happens after graduation then?
Strict Schooling And Family Values
Speaker 1You graduate after graduation, of course, I had a decision at that point. And the first one was, what am I gonna do for income? And uh I remember one of the winters following my schooling, um, I and a couple of others, one of which was my brother, my older brother. By the way, he graduated with me.
Speaker 5Oh.
Speaker 1So we were entering the workforce at the same time. Drove to Grand Rapids and um took employment there in a factory that was making gas cans for the army. You've seen those five-gallon cans that they strap on to jeeps.
Speaker 6Yeah, the big, what they call them, they called them jerry cans, didn't they? Yeah.
Speaker 1Anyhow.
Speaker 6Named after you?
Speaker 1Pardon?
Speaker 6They named after you or no?
Speaker 1Probably not.
Speaker 6Yeah, so the big gas cans anymore.
Speaker 1But anyhow, uh and only a couple of times during the winter months did we go home. Because of course, we did have my brother. But um, and driving before I was.
Speaker 6Um, did you you and your brother live together then?
Speaker 1Well yes. And there was another one or two guys.
Speaker 6Okay.
Speaker 1Well, went to a rooming house there. And uh we had a place where we could get breakfast and an evening meal. Right there at the rooming house. And uh it would go well.
Speaker 6Yeah. Now, how long did you work there?
Speaker 1I think it was just one winter.
Speaker 6Okay.
Speaker 1And in the summer, I felt somewhat obligated to help my father and the family on the farm. And um, and I still call sharecrop. I worked with him and for him, but I then also leased some land from a neighboring farmer and grew a crop or two for myself.
SpeakerOkay.
Speaker 1For for eventual income. Um, and we at that time we had no tractor.
Speaker 6Um you're using horses on a plow?
Speaker 1No, no, let me back up.
Speaker 6Okay.
Speaker 1I think we had a tractor before I graduated from high school.
Speaker 7Oh, okay.
Speaker 1Because one of my brothers, who was four years older than I, was in service, and he sent money home and intended to buy a tractor for the farm family. And we did. Um prior to that, on some occasions, we borrowed the tractor from one of my brother-in-law, the husband of one of my older sisters.
Speaker 8Okay.
Speaker 1And uh, but other than that, we did our farming with horses.
unknownWow.
Speaker 1And uh, I can remember in about the age of 11, I was cultivating with one horse in the cultivator. And uh as we neared the noon time, in my mind, it was not yet time to quit for dinner. In the horse's mind, every time the horse started to cross the field and I couldn't stop it.
Speaker 6Yeah, horses have they like have those habits, right? Oh, yeah. They know when it's time to eat.
Speaker 1Um, the horses were oh, let me see. 1,500 pounds or more.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1And uh, of course, the only control you have, you have a bit in their mouth, dance the rains. And if you're not strong enough to stop them, they do what they want.
Speaker 6That's true. Well, and you were just you were 11-year-old kids, so that he was gonna go have his dinner. So, so when you came back to the farm after uh working in Grand Rapids, how long did you stay at the farm?
Speaker 1I think, let me see. One of my brother-in-laws, the same brother that known as the tractor, worked at the Trevor City State Hospital. He said, Jury, I think I can, I think they're doing some high earning. Why don't you try that? And um, so I did, and I got in. Um so I was working as an orderly. Um now, state, I don't know if you know anything about state hospitals. In the early years, um patients were there for all kinds of reasons. I won't go into that.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1But some of my experiences there were I was involved to a small degree in giving electric treatments to patients. And there were only a couple of times that I uh uh did uh uh a day or two in the uh you see tuberculosis worked. It's significant only that. When I stopped teaching later on, my chest H raised injured. No, I'm sorry. They were giving skin tests of tuberculosis, and I had a positive reaction.
Speaker 6Because you had worked there.
Speaker 1I think I even though we wore masks and all that. Um well so I graduated in 49 and in 52 I was drafted into service. We were still in the Korean War.
Speaker 7Right.
Early Work, State Hospital, And Draft
Speaker 1And um classmate um was in the was drafted at the same time, same group. We ended up going to Aberdeen, Maryland for our eight-week basic training. While there, he became ill and went to the hospital. Was gone two weeks. Well, when he was released from the hospital, went to a different company to get into the proper location. So he was out of my company. Now, when I finished BASIC, I went, I was uh sent to a 10-week ordinance training school program. And when he finished BASIC, two weeks later, his company was sent to Korea. We were still in the Korean.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1When I finished my 10-week training, I was fortunate enough to be sent to Europe. And I say fortunate in that you have no control about it.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1So while in Europe, I was uh I was at Kaiserslaw. Um we came into a port. I think it's called Bremen, but then it's supposed to wherever you're going. And I went to Kaiserslaw. We had wonderful billets barracks there. Um it was a we were in the midst of the Marshall Plan of rebuilding Europe after World War II. World War II ended in 45. This was like 53. Well, late 52. Um in in our battalion's responsibility was the maintenance of vehicles, small arms, all of those kinds of things. And the vehicles were on a rotation basis brought in and inspected, and any needed repair was done. So put bank out and storage in the woods.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1Um I was fortunate again, and they they wanted somebody that could type, but I happened to have had typing in high school. So I think that was the only time I volunteered.
Speaker 6Yeah, they teach you pretty early on, you should never mind.
Speaker 1Well, I got into an office.
Speaker 6Uh-huh.
Speaker 1It's been my entire, well, seven months in Germany. Then our battalion, all of us, were sent to Nancy, France, which is some distance away from Paris. But anyhow, and we were there for nine months. Um, and I was in the office all the time. It was uh requisitioning, small arms parts, automotive parts, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 6Yeah, because because we were rebuilding, we still had a lot of people in Europe, correct? We still had a lot of servicemen in Europe.
Speaker 1Many, many people in Europe. I don't I have no idea how many. Um but the parcel plan was a big thing for Europe.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1And periodically we would go on um, I can't even think of the proper name of it, we would go on alerts where the signal was sounded, everybody had their essential materials already packed. We got into complete vehicles without and drove. Somewhere, someone was leading us. And then we would yeah, then we would uh bivouac out there for a few days and uh And sometimes it can be very cold in Germany. And in in Germany, I said we had very nice barracks. In France, we had 12-band tents.
Speaker 5Oh.
Speaker 1And with snow and all that kind of stuff. Now those 12-man tents had wooden floors and sidewalls that came up, wooden sidewalls that came up four feet. And then a big tent over there. Two coal burning stove in there. Therefore, money had duty.
Speaker 6Had to make sure those stoves stayed lit, right?
Speaker 1That's right. Keep those stoves burning in the winter. But all in all, I had good duty compared to people that went to Korea.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1One of my older brothers, two years older than I, was drafted also. And he did go to Korea. Fortunately, he was trained to be a cook. Therefore, he was not on the front lines. He was bank away. No, he was not the oldest brother in the family, but the oldest one went into service. I think he went into service about 1945. And I don't remember what all of his duty was, but I do remember that he went to Japan and he had guard duty guarding the palace where Hirohito stayed after World War II.
Speaker 5Oh.
Speaker 1Who was the Emperor of Japan during the war? Well, back to where we were. So in late 1983, 1953, I was in at home. And the troop transports of those days were not so great. I can remember every day I tried to go on deck just to. And they were about eight high. And uh the entire ship was troops.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1And uh so um a buddy of mine was seasick for that entire trip back to America. And the only thing he ate most of those days was some bread that I bought him from Missouri.
SpeakerOh no.
Speaker 1And of course the ships were not very large, and they were very responsive to the waves. By the end of the day, my ankles were so hard, I'd stay standing straight while the ship was doing this.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1And there were times I remember one time in the mess hall, um, somebody let go of their tray and it went down. I just went right down slid away from it. Um so you hung on to your food tray.
Speaker 6Yep, hang on to your tray with one hand and eat with the other hand, right? Yeah.
Speaker 1Right. And I was on the rifle team while I was in Europe.
Speaker 5Uh huh.
Speaker 1I don't remember where. But um, and I enjoyed that. We had some we had some uh good competition with various companies stationed there. Um so what I said earlier about having lost some of my hearing capability because of guns way back on the farm and then in service all the way through life. I've been associated with, to a small degree, with the use of guns.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1You know, it was my father and brother taught us how to use them safely.
Speaker 6So when you got in the service, it wasn't uh it wasn't like an unknown thing to you. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1Now something I left out that maybe I should bring in at this. When I was three years old, I threw a body rock in a backyard. And of course it shattered. Piece of glass flew into my right eye, and it cut the cornea. So my vision in the right eye is very limited straightforward. Um, I couldn't even count fingers on that eye, but I do have some riffle vision. In spite of no vision in that right eye, I was drafted. Um the Korean War, everybody that was available was a subject.
Speaker 7Right.
Basic Training And Assigned To Europe
Speaker 1Um now in terms of my participation in shooting activities while in basic training and so prior to the army, but then also in the army, I said left-handed, so that I could use my left eye on the same. And, you know, when you consider that here you have a row of soldiers firing weapons, maybe even lying on the ground. And uh everybody's right-handed except this one guy. You were you were messing over the buttons I I was accustomed to it because I um the only disadvantage I had shooting left-handed is all of them were bold action on the right side. There were no left-handed rifles, would have I I think now you can get one special in my hand.
Speaker 7Right, right.
Speaker 1But anyhow, that's kind of I was telling that to someone a while ago, and uh they thought it was unusual that I wouldn't even be drawn.
Speaker 6Um so you get on a so you finish out your tour in Europe and you're you're on a troop transport. We were we were talking about that. How long was that ride back?
Speaker 1Um yes.
Speaker 6A couple of weeks.
Speaker 1And it was December that we were coming back.
Speaker 6Uh-huh.
Speaker 1Um, we came back to the New York Harbor. I don't remember just where, but uh the day before Christmas, I woke up and a train was sitting still. Everybody wants to get home.
Speaker 6Right, right. And you're on the train from New York to Michigan then, or yeah.
unknownYeah.
Speaker 1Train from New York to Michigan. To Chicago.
Speaker 6Right, yeah, you had to go through that.
Speaker 1So um, we did get moving and so on. But uh anyhow, we got into Chicago Christmas Eve, and uh we got word that excuse me. We got word that they could process us in four hours to be out of there. So uh I called home. My family drove to Grand Rapids, and I would fly from Chicago into Grand Rapids. And uh in it was Christmas Eve night time when they met me at Grand Rapids. Now, I was none this show. I was only given a leave because of the holiday. But there was ten days it went. Um my father and one or maybe more of my brothers came down to me.
Speaker 6So nice to see them. Yeah.
Speaker 1And of course, you know, from overseas, telephone calls were not very frequent.
Speaker 7Right, right.
Speaker 1But anyhow, at the end of my leave, I went back to um I forgot the name of the camp in Chicago, where we then we were then discharged.
Speaker 5Okay.
Speaker 1And um late January I was discharged.
Speaker 6Um you came back to Michigan after you got discharged then?
Speaker 1I came back to Michigan.
Speaker 6Okay.
Speaker 1Because I was employed by the state of Michigan when I was inducted, that job opening was held for me. And I was entitled to it when I returned.
unknownOh.
Speaker 1And I did go back to it. And um, so I once again lived at the farm and helped there to a small degree, but I drove, I immediately bought a car.
Speaker 8Yes.
Speaker 1Drove into the job, and it's only 15 miles by time. And then somewhere along the line, and of course, by this time, I am a little ways into my twenties.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1Entering the twenties. And uh so the two younger boys in the family, the three younger than I, two of them were boys, they were pretty well handling all the farm activities. So I moved into Trevor City and continued working there. And I was um the state hospital, probably contract, some student nurses from the Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit came there for their psychiatric statement of their training. So I'm dating some of those girls.
Speaker 6Of course.
Speaker 1And uh, but then somewhere along the line, I got smart enough to say to realize these girls aren't bad. Cast their lot with me, because I have a dead-end life plan.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1And they're going back to something better. So I better make some choices. That's when I decided I need to go back to school and um choose a vocation. Um, so I first of all, well, I was always a big U of M fan. As a boy, I used to listen to their football games on the radio. So I was so when I decided on an education, the school that came to mind, U of M. Of course. I scheduled an interview there, went down there, and uh they kindly led me to the point of you've been out of school six years now. You have some catching up to do before you're ready for college.
unknownYeah.
Speaker 1And uh they said, you really ought to start out at a two-year school and do some planning and work your way into a position where you can choose a vocation.
Speaker 6So at this point you weren't sure what you were gonna do. You just needed to go to school, right? That's right. Yeah.
Speaker 1And so I enrolled at my community college in Flint. Um I had an aunt and first cousins that lived in Flint, and I could stay with them, and I had the GI Bill to gain some income for education. And uh so I went there for two years. After two years, because I had some catching up to do. I didn't have adequate credits for an associate's degree, which is normally granted after two years.
Speaker 7Right.
Life In Germany And France On Duty
Speaker 1So after two years, my father had been diagnosed with prostate cancer. So I decided that I would go home, stay with the family, help them through that tough time, and um be of whatever value I could to them. And there's a uh there's a community college in Trevor City that they could go to, and uh and I could get a job somewhere to create some income. So my older brother, one of my older brothers, was able to uh steer me to get a job, a meat packing pan. And so shortly after I got home in the spring. I never did throw out a day. I think I went to Flint in 55.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1And then I would have been back home 57. Maybe I'm off a little bit.
Speaker 6Oh, that's that's fine.
Speaker 1Anyhow, I was home for a summer, a full year, and then the summer again before I re-entered education. And after that first summer, my father died. And uh, but I believed that I still should stay and assist the family. And so I continued to work at that meat banking plant. I was involved in butchering. Well, not in butchering, really, but in cutting up to me.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1Um and going to school. And so I did get an associate's degree from there at the end of that school, yeah. Um then, of course, it was a matter of uh the next step.
Speaker 6Right, you've got your associates now. What are you gonna do?
Speaker 1So I applied and was accepted. Um conditional is not the right word, but it's the right description.
Speaker 6Right.
Speaker 1Because of poor grades.
Speaker 6Yeah, you were looking on probation, academic probation. Probation, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1At Western Michigan University and College. So I went there and uh because I was on probation, and in my first semester there, I did not maintain C average. So let's do it.
SpeakerOh no.
Speaker 1So I immediately needed to uh get some income because of course my GFL dropped.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1But it was reaching the point of near exhaustion, anyhow. So I got a job at um one of the two local hospitals in Kenneth, and uh Branson was the second one. I got a job at Borgett's.
Speaker 6Um you and the nurses, you and the nurses, Jerry.
Speaker 1So I was there as an olderly, sometimes working in the emergency, sometimes um working in the orthopedic ward, and uh we I go into the hospital here, and you see all of these beds with the name of Stryker.
Speaker 4Yeah.
Speaker 1I worked with Dr. Stryker.
Speaker 4Oh.
Speaker 1And at that one of the uh one of the unique things that he developed was the circular bed for patients burned, burns, and other kinds of injuries. And it was probably about a seven or eight foot circle on each side of the bed. And they were put, and you could you could uh fasten the patient to the bed, bring another bed down on top of them, and then roll it over 180 degrees, and you have turning them.
Speaker 6Right. So you don't have to pick them up and all that, you can just turn them. Yeah.
Speaker 1And uh in the that was in the burn unit. But in the orthopedic unit, there were sometimes with spinal injury, the doctors would need to extend the head, take the pressure off the spinal cord. Yeah, and that meant you could do it again, to the head. Sometimes you could do it with a net or something around the jaw. But sometimes they actually would anchor into the skull. And I worked with doctors in those instances. It's quite an experience.
Speaker 6I guess. I guess.
Speaker 1Anyhow. So I was out of after that question. I was out of school some minimum amount of time. And then I re-enrolled, was accepted again, was that on co-basion. And I continued working. But my classload was relatively small. I don't even remember what it was. And I continued part-time in school and full-time working. And once again, those student nurses were my downfall.
Speaker 6Uh-huh.
Speaker 1And I met one which I married.
Speaker 6Yeah, so how did the so tell me how you met your wife then? So tell me how you met your wife.
Speaker 1Okay. As an olderly at the hospital, there were some times that I would give oxygen therapy treatments, and there was a whole staff of them. But anyhow, that took me to different floors. And especially at night, much of the staffing, the hospital staff, was done by student nurses. And through course, you communicate. And sometimes that leads to more friendly relationships. And then of course, would you go to a coffee or a coke in the morning when you get up to it? That sort of thing. And uh so anyhow, um, Kathy and I dated for a while, and then it was getting pretty serious dating when relationship by the time she graduated. And I was still quite a ways from graduation. And so India, when she graduated in the fall of 62, we I asked her to marry me.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1And we set the date of December 29th because I would be on vacation from school. And uh when she graduated in September, she then took employment with the hospital. And then in December, we did get married in Sand Lake, Michigan. Um her home was Cedar Springs, just five miles away. And um one of my brothers was my best friend. Two of her classmates were a part of her regular party.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1And two of my very good friends, they're at Western, were part of my groomsman?
Speaker 6Groomsman, yeah.
Coming Home And Starting Again
Speaker 1Um money, no time. We didn't have a honeymoon at that at that point. Um so in the together, we had saved enough money that we took a honeymoon the next one year later. Okay, and we went to uh Niagara Falls.
Speaker 6Oh, that was the thing, right? In the 60s, everyone went to Niagara Falls, right? Yeah.
Speaker 1I hadn't even been to uh Guaman in my life. Um so anyhow, we enjoyed that. And then we continued working in the hospital. And uh after we were married, yeah, I stopped work, and I focused strongly on advancing.
Speaker 6Now, have you determined what you wanted to get your degree in at this point?
Speaker 1I did.
Speaker 6Yeah, so what was that?
Speaker 1Um when I left Mont Community College, I made the decision that I'm gonna go into education.
Speaker 6So now you had a goal in mind, yeah.
Speaker 1Teaching was my goal.
Speaker 6Okay.
Speaker 1And because of my nature, physics and math were very attractive to me. So I majored in physics, minor than math.
Speaker 6Well, here's a guy that's on academic probation three times now, and you're taking some pretty tough classes, Jerry. So that's no joke. Like that's that's real school.
Speaker 1Well, I think I think an explanation for that path is this. Until I became until I got married, I really didn't have a formal goal in mind.
Speaker 6But uh anyway, that well marriage will do that to you. It'll marriage will make you think about goals, won't it? Yeah.
Speaker 1So then how much I'd have a little more commitment.
Speaker 6Right. So how how how long were you at Western then? Or did you stay at Western?
Speaker 1So I graduated in uh 64.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1And started interviewing right away. And some of the schools I interviewed at uh were Mondro's Flint. I made up my mind I'm not going to Flint. And police in always.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1It was out. Even though it was um a thousand dollars more per year than where I did sell. But I did take a contract. I signed a contract with Portland, Michigan, yeah. And uh physics and math. And the math that I was teaching there was um trigonometry, geometry. I had one year of sology, which was a little more advanced than geometry, algebra.
Speaker 6Seems like I had in in trigonometry, which I was then So you started teaching in nineteen sixty, nineteen.
SpeakerYes, the fall of nineteen sixty-four.
Speaker 6Okay. All right. And so you were thirty three then. So you were a little older than some newer teachers. So like I always when I was in school, the newer teachers were always like r really young right out of college, but you were you're a little probably a little bit older than some of your peers then.
Speaker 1And of course, two things that accounted for that were I was out of school for six years before I went back, and then when working on my bachelor's, I was moving so slowly that uh time passes.
Speaker 6Yeah, well, you were taking care of your family too, so you had a lot going on.
Speaker 1Yes, I uh then after our marriage, within the first six to twelve months of my life, we realized that we were not gonna be able to have children. So um after the first year of teaching, during the first year of teaching, we designed it, we're not gonna be able to have children, and we want some, we'll start adapting.
Speaker 3Yeah.
Speaker 1So because Portland is in the Grand Rapids Catholic Diocese, then the Catholic Social Service for that diocese was in Grand Rapids. So we're driving over there for the preparation meeting. At that time, adoption was not easy. Um, I don't know how many meetings we attended, quite a few, and they were originally group meetings, but then as you get near the end, the individual couple. And um we had one couple that was in the group meeting, they became pregnant before they reached the conclusion.
Speaker 6Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1So something going on.
Speaker 6Right. Right.
Speaker 1Well, anyhow, so our oldest child was born in June of 65. And he came to us, I think he was about four months old. It's funny. There's a number of people said to me, Oh, you look so much like you. They didn't know he was a dentist.
Speaker 6Well, right. Less his mom was a student nurse.
Speaker 1And said, they did a great job of matching.
Speaker 6Yeah.
Speaker 7Oh my.
Speaker 1So then in 66, when the first one was a boy, uh-huh. Second one was a boy, 66, and then with two with two babies, they would better slow down. But they still have store.
Speaker 6Right. Right, and you're teaching, so there's a lot of stuff going on.
Speaker 1So the third child was two years separation. And then she was such a dow. And uh you know, even the local photography studio there, the one who is the baby of such a touch. The month or whatever.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Community College And Family Illness
Speaker 1So anyhow, we decided we do want to get another colour. So that Carolyn has a sister. And then adoption was getting more difficult. Now we're Carolyn came to us in '68. Um babies were either not that available, yeah, or whatever. I don't know if it's anyhow. Um we had no opportunity for a while. Um but anyhow, eventually those are services called us and said, we have this baby that has been in foster care for quite a while and has been diagnosed or evaluated as a better word. Both physically handicapped and mentally handicapped. The motherly instincts perpetrated me. Yeah, we should do that. And so Jennifer came to us in 70.
Speaker 5Okay.
Speaker 1No, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. She was born in 70. She was nearly two years old before she came to her.
Speaker 6Oh, okay. So 72 she got to you?
Speaker 1Yeah. And um before she entered, Kennedy got the mental handicap to the nation and been eliminated. But she still had some physical people.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1But during the elementary years of school, he was one of our better students.
Speaker 6So were you still teaching? Oh, go ahead, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1That really says something for environment.
Speaker 6Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 1Anyhow, I'm still teaching.
Speaker 6Are you at Portland still at this time?
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 6So you've been there for about eight years then.
Speaker 1Yeah. Okay.
Speaker 5Oh.
Speaker 1But I have to jump back to the first year there.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1I signed my first contract at Portland for one thousand six hundred and fifty dollars per year. There were no negotiations.
Speaker 7Wow.
Speaker 1At that time. Um, but it was a school environment that I felt would be fine for me. And um so working. Um, she then, once we got into Poland, she took a job at the hospital in Ionia, which was the state capital. And um she would work on weekends because I would be home.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1And that worked out, but um things were to bring the children on.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1The illnesses and so to go with that sometimes. Anyhow, um the the home that we were in in Portland had fewer burning heaters, and they would not allow us to bring a child into that environment. So we moved to a home in Ionia for one year, and then we were able to find a different location in Portland.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 3And uh so then we moved back to Portland.
Speaker 1During the first year that I was there, I was of course looking for added income. So one of my fellow teachers say, Jerry, if you go over here to Michigan State, you can take one course and be approved to teach by it. So that summer, this is the this day for my first year, I went over and took that course. And liked it so well that the next summer I enrolled in the math course and driver in. And the math was so tall. I said, Jesus, this is so easy. I dropped the math, and that convinced me, switch to traffic safety education. And I did. So then summers in ninth after school, I would commute an issue. Um, and I got a master's there, and an specialist in traffic and field situation. And uh in 1972, and this was like a year in Borneo, um, I convinced I left something I want to put in, and that is in 1966, the state of Michigan passed a law requiring school boards to negotiate with staff regarding hours of work and benefits.
Speaker 6Right. Right, you had collective bargaining at that point, right?
Speaker 1So I said, I better get on and negotiate it.
Speaker 6Right.
Setbacks, Hospitals, And Finding A Path
Speaker 1So I did, and uh and I stayed on it every year, and I left in 79, and I had been the spokesman for the last five contracts. Um and I continued my education. And um in 1972, I convinced the school board, school administration, that they could provide high education during the school day without any added cost compared to the program they were providing. So I had full-time driver in for four years before they my teaching schedule in that setting was I would go to school at 12 o'clock noon, and I would have two hours of teaching and one hour of planning. And then after the school they ended, I had three hours of driving, which made up my five hours of commitment. Um but anyhow, by seventy six we had a new superintendent and his thinking didn't include that. Stone driver it was dropped from the regular school day. Well, of course, with tenure, they had to find a teaching position for me. Turned out to me Romino math.
Speaker 5Oh.
Speaker 1And you know, that's quite a shot. From physics in the hive. I love math. And it's a lot of work. Those people don't want to be there.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1And so we left in 79. That occurred in 76.
Speaker 6So So after 13 years in Portland, then you or 15 years.
Speaker 1Yes, I had um by the time I left 15.
Speaker 2Yeah, 15 years.
Speaker 1So in that three-year period, um at the lower teaching level of responsibility. I said to Kathy, I can outwait. Superintendents come and go.
Speaker 6Right, right. But the staff is pretty steady.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 6Yeah.
Speaker 1So I said, I can't wait him. Well, about the second of those three years, I said, I can't outwait him. We're gonna have to go. During that period of time, we wanted to buy a home. And we had we had advanced in the planning that we were going to buy this particular home. Turned out the builder could not finish it. I don't know why. We selected the carpet, everything. I think he had financial problems, but I don't know. Anyhow, he wouldn't finish it. And during our anxiety, tell him about anxiety, we received an invitation from a realtor representing a company in New Mexico to come to a dinner and listen to a presentation. You're not forced to do anything.
Speaker 6Right. Right. But you gotta watch that presentation to get to dinner, right?
Speaker 1So we went to that. I don't even remember what we ate. But anyhow, the presentation was done well. And we decided that we would buy some land out there for our future retirement. And we had six months to look at the land, and if we were dissatisfied, complete refund. So we decided we'll go out there over our Christmas and New Year's vacation. And look at it. So we did that. We were driving cross country. We had a 1966 car. 66, 70, 76.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1So we had a good car to make that trip. But anyhow, going across country with a three-year-old, a two-year-old, and maybe we were still on eating food. And uh we lost the hardware scars in a motel. I think in the Illinois. On the way out. That broke his heart. Even the way back, we have to stop. We did and we found it under the bed.
Speaker 7There you go. There you go.
Speaker 1But uh that was a memorable trip.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1And the weather was so bad, crossing the bandhandle of Oklahoma, Will Rogers Freeway. I think we drove that freeway about 25 miles. 25 miles an hour.
unknownWow.
Speaker 1We got into uh whatever the next city is there. And Kathy said, take those boys and go somewhere. We need some peace and quiet. Boys and I went to a boiling alley where they could run and around it.
Speaker 6Yeah, good for them. Oh so did you end up building in in New Mexico then?
Speaker 1So we got to New Mexico and looked at the land and we asked a bunch of questions. We ended up deciding to trade the land, trade the plot or a different plot, such that when you look out the front of the house, you can see the mountains, the playground, standing amounts. Cost us a little more money.
Speaker 6Right, of course.
Speaker 1But we traded.
Speaker 6Yeah.
Speaker 1While we were there, um we took the took the children up the tram up the side of the mountain. So the goats on the other side. The boys still remember that.
Speaker 7Yeah.
Speaker 1And they were very old.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1It was a memorable trip for us. We'd never been out of Michigan before.
Speaker 6Well, that's quite a trip if you've never been out of Michigan before. Yeah.
Speaker 1Um, when we came back, and before we left um Portland in 79, we bought some additional land out there, stayed unseen. And we still own that. The first lot we have sold. Um we have no intention of retiring.
Speaker 2Right.
Speaker 1But there's no way that we can sell it and uh get our money out of it. The taxes in it are very small. Um so we've continued to pay the taxes. Eventually they'll go to the children. What are them concerned about? We're concerned about it. If they don't pay the taxes, then it'll be taken from them. So I'll work that out.
SpeakerRight.
Speaker 1Um when we decided to leave, made a commitment. During the last school in year, we were in Portland. I sent resumes out to job vacancies, people listed in New Mexico. Our goal was to try to get something that is relatively close to our land. And uh so I scheduled four interviews right after school in the June. And um we flew out, and they went with me because she had to be considered in any decision.
Speaker 7Oh, yeah.
Meeting Kathy And Choosing Teaching
Speaker 1And uh we went through the four interviews. I thought the interviews went well, but there was no job offer. So I you know, we went back home. I said, well, I have to do better than that. So I scheduled four more interviews for early August. Now, one of the characteristics that he had negotiated when he was on that team, was that we had we already were to be paid for our unused vacation. But I had negotiated, we would also be paid for one half of unused sit down. Well, as we were getting ready to leave, I was counting on that amount of money to finance our move. And um we were required by law to notify the school district. Um I think it was like four weeks before the start of the next year.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1And uh so I tuned in my termination before I even had a job.
Speaker 6Oh my god.
Speaker 1Yes, he wasn't about. I said, I'm a hard worker, I can get a job to worry about it.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1So anyhow, when the first of the interview was coming up, uh we we planned this out. We will drive out, I will drive out alone, and I scheduled the interviews, two on each consecutive day, and one in the morning, and then one nearby in the afternoon, with driving time between. And then two more the next day. Nine I gotta drive to a new area of this day. But um that's okay. Well, got to the first interview, they offered me a job. It was a pretty good assignment. So I thought about that. So I decided and I told them I have three more interviews. I owe them the honor of being there. I said, I schedule not Thursday and Friday. I said, on Monday I will call you and let you know my final decision. So every place of the job. So here I have no job. In June, and my final determination was simply too early in the year. They had a lot of time. So um, so I got back to the plan was to leave out, leave in the car I had at the airport, fly home, because the plan was I'll drive wendell truck with our belonging.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1Can't you drive a pickup camp with the family? Called Kathy. He said, do those two guys called it over. So now I've got six of them.
Speaker 5Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1Well, I took the one which was the best pay, and the second best assignment.
Speaker 6Uh-huh. So you loaded everybody up and headed to Mexico headed to New Mexico then, huh?
unknownYeah.
Speaker 1So I flew and uh last August was, you know, we tried to sell a house with a neighbor and uh we had bought let me say, I didn't even touch that. We had bought a home and with some handyman skills that I acquired on the farm, remodeled it, um, sold it, made money on my effort, bought another home, a big home, beautiful home. It was over 100 years old. Um we even knew it had a leaky rough in uh two-story house. I said, I can do that. So then we made money on that too. When we were leaving there, um we couldn't we had hidden solar in that last month. So we knew the realtor really well. And uh so we left everything in his hand and we started out. Well, that was a fun journey.
Speaker 6Oh, I'll bet. Two trucks, bunch of kids, two trucks, must have been a lot of fun.
Speaker 1Kathy was following me, and at that time, um Ryder had yellow trucks.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1And so it was easy to spot me. I had she lost me in Tulsa. Oh, when I was in my traffic safety, I had developed really good skills at using my mirrors. So when I realized she wasn't me there, I decided I just pull off, stay right here, wait till she catches me. With a yellow truck like that, easy to find. And if she did, we couldn't. Anyway, we stayed at a couple of campgrounds along the way. Um of course we had that camp and truck and even minimized expense.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 6Um so anyhow, we got into New Mexico and gotten to New Mexico when you were you put your goods in a storage unit? Is that what you've done? Okay. And so now you're house hunting.
Speaker 1Yes. And so I began teaching, and we're living in a camper truck.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1Um truck camper. And uh so camping in the wheel tour every day or something for us. In the morning, kids are all getting ready for school, and getting ready to go teach.
Speaker 6Right.
Speaker 1In a small camper.
Speaker 6That couldn't have been easy.
First Classrooms And Adopting Children
Speaker 1Um anyhow, um I'm teaching math, and uh the first day we had a meeting of the math department, big school district. So um, our grades were eight and nine. And uh then there was a senior high, 1012, we were in called data high. Um so on the first day at this meeting, I made some in some friendships with the other man's teachers. This is fortunate. So when we find a home, these two guys said, we can we can bring a truck with a Tommy lift in the back of it to get your appliances. We get the appliances out of the storage, take them to this home, to Moby. Remember, we haven't sold the portman.
Speaker 7Right, right.
Speaker 1And uh so they weren't out really well. Those are two good friends, out of mine two years.
Speaker 6Yeah.
Speaker 1But anyhow.
Speaker 6So how long did you stay in New Mexico?
Speaker 1I stayed there just two years.
Speaker 6Just two years.
Speaker 1Yeah. During the second year. At the end of the first year, there was stuff going.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Our population was made up of probably 85% of the students of Mexican descent, most of them, within the next 15 to 20 years. And there were times they would call sometimes with ways that they could help their son of God or perform. Sometimes it was about disabled.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1Anyhow, um, there were times that the parents would crusade me over the phone. I said, oh God, I don't need this.
Speaker 6Right.
Speaker 1And at the end of the first year, my assistant principal said, Jerry, I have one other teacher that gives too many T's to me. I said, Whoa.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1So I come back the second year, I find that he's not there. I never thought of what. Didn't matter to me. Um but the job was very, very um I I can understand the student's point of view at that time I couldn't. But um they didn't want to be there. And they made it difficult for me. And uh truly I had a difficult position in training in terms of building relationships with them because I didn't speak the Spanish names properly. I couldn't even do that, couldn't even reach some kind of a stable start.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1Umsa, you know, I would start up with something like something way off from there.
Speaker 7Right, right.
Speaker 1Um and it was later in life I learned you can't motivate someone else. They have to motivate themselves. All you can do is control the environment. That will help them motivate them.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1I didn't know that at that time. Well, during the second year, well, at the beginning of the second year, they said, I gotta search for something else. So I started putting out resumes again. And there were more in New Mexico, but I wanted to go some other state after that period. So it turns out that one of the job openings was at Texas AM for a teaching assistant. And I submitted a resume. First thing I know, Texas AM representative called me. They wanted to fill the position. And uh he said, Jerry, Dallan Smith, Michigan State. Recognize you.
Speaker 5Wow.
Speaker 1So we had a communication right over the phone, he opened the job. I did go ahead. The teaching assigned. It was a teaching assistant position. And the assignment was um motorcycle safety teacher preparation program. And of course, I had taken my motorcycle safety program from Don Smith. And then I joined a program that the Highway Traffic Safety Association funded in Portland. And then I joined a mental.
Speaker 6So you had a pretty pretty good history of this.
Speaker 1Well, not very much. I didn't have, I didn't have authorization to teach teacher preparation.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1I didn't have that level. Um that was never even considered by them or me initially. Um wonderful assignment. They were adults students, university students.
Speaker 6Right. So they wanted to be there.
Speaker 1That's right.
Speaker 6That's different, a little different, right? Yes.
Speaker 1They wanted to be there.
Speaker 6Uh huh.
Speaker 1In addition, it's an enjoyable activity.
Speaker 6Right. It's something, yeah, something they wanted to do.
Speaker 1So that was great. And there were some were some um less good things to the program. I had to go out to motorcycle dealers and solicit their putting cycles into our program at no cost to us. And I did all of that before the school year started. Um, but it was okay. The year went well, um, Motor Sand and Safety Foundation visited Texas AM during, maybe I know I don't remember when, sometime during the year. And um I met two personnel from there that I had known by name on my written communication. Anyhow, kind of a blunder on my part. The lady that was there, I called her the wrong name.
Speaker 5Oh.
Speaker 1I only learned it later, considerably later. But it turned out there were no repercussions. But during the second semester, my director learned that Uta Sega Safety Foundation informed him, Jerry has not had the preparation that is needed for teaching instructor practice. And I learned later mind of factor went to bed for me. Said, you mean you're not gonna certify these instructors after they go through the training program? Not only are you punishing, but you're punishing them?
Speaker 8Yeah.
Building Driver Education In Portland
Speaker 1They said, go ahead and finish the year, but don't study. The next year, um I had uh assignment teaching to everyone teacher book, which I had so including including uh two degrees uh ministry, especially. Of course, what I was doing there was teaching half time and studying halftime was getting my PhD. And um that's good. So at the end of the second year, they said, Jerry, I would like to have you consider this. They have home states on school of what they call um research opportunities. And it might be an organization of the state or somebody else wants something done in research. So they'll ask directors, do you have anybody that would want to do this, qualify for this? And um Texas had just passed a safety restraint for the law. And they wanted some research on the effectiveness of it. And um it's before Michigan had anything.
Speaker 7Yeah.
Speaker 1And um, so my director offered this opportunity for me, to me, so I wrote a proposal for research, and him critiqued and helped me, better, and cemented it. And um I was awarded a grant by the uh Texas Safety Association to conduct the research. They paid me a salary, which was better than when I got on that assistant job. There was money to hire some people to carry out this research. And uh and not too many restraints. So I said, they when they made the offer. I said, absolutely. So it took me out of the classroom and it also gave me um opportunity to gain some experience in research. And um that was good.
Speaker 6So how long did you stay at Texas?
Speaker 1I stayed, I stayed there for four years.
Speaker 6Okay.
Speaker 1I'm sorry, this particular research project came the fourth year. The third year was different. The third year was one of the instructors that I had for a class worked for Texas Research Institute and other branches of the university. And anyhow, he said, he said, at the end of my second year, I had chosen my research activity, and it was to compare the driving experience following two things. One is students that receive driver education instruction, and the other group was drivers or people that were licensed to drive with a license. And I wanted to compare the driving experience following being a license to drive. And um so this instructor said to me, we're gonna do a hundred thousand dollar project. And it's gonna involve the same people that you want to work with for your proof of PhD proposal. He said, I'll make you an offer. You can you can work with us while we do this project for a year. And when we're done, we'll give you the student records.
Speaker 6For your PhD. Yeah.
Speaker 1It would cost me thousands of dollars.
Speaker 6Right.
Speaker 1So by having that experience with them, um gain the opportunity to see how proposals are developed in the whole path to implementation.
Speaker 6And so that helped you in that project with you then. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1Then in the fourth year, because that ended up, and in the fourth year I did that other tax and safety association.
Speaker 6Yeah. So then after all of that, then what so what happens after the fourth year?
Speaker 1During that fourth year, when I had that funding project in February of that year, Don Smith called me. Open a position before too long in the Department of Education. Why don't you consider coming to Michigan, taking the tests necessary to get on the roll, to be eligible, to apply for that position?
Speaker 4That's a lot. That's a lot.
Speaker 1I did that. I came up for four hours of testing in Grand Rapids to get on the to be eligible, to be on the ball. So that when they opened that position, I'd be eligible to apply. I did. Uh in August contacted me for an interview. In the Department of Education. And um I'm gonna frame this.
Speaker 6So did you end up getting the job?
Speaker 1I did.
Speaker 6Okay.
Speaker 1I did.
Speaker 6Yeah.
Speaker 1Um I think it was, I don't know, a week to ten days after the interview.
Speaker 7Yeah.
Speaker 1Because I went back. Um but after that, they contacted me. And um I got a couple of there are Don Smith and a couple of others. They're then hung. And uh, so they call me, offer me the job. I would start on September 9th. Turns out to be my date of birth.
Speaker 6Right. Right. And this is 19 what what year was this then?
Speaker 119 It was in 85.
Speaker 61985, okay.
Speaker 1So um, I knew I had the job, Kathy and I have to plan one.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1So Brian and David have graduated from high school down.
SpeakerUh huh.
Speaker 1Jon is now a senior, would be a senior through the school. So we had to consider the idea.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1We decided I would come up, we would come up, and I would stay. And she and the children would come up in June. So we did that. And I went to the place where and uh now I graduated. No, I'm sorry, I finished all of my responsibilities except I did my dissertation at the university. So I went down to spend Christmas with them. And then in June I flew down and um went under the bridal truck and trip to Michigan. Now we have Brian and David, our drivers also.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1Uh let me see. One of them rode with me, and uh one of them, well, it's really all riding with me or with Kathy.
Speaker 5Okay.
Speaker 1And the other one drove the car that we had at that time. That's a car that we had in different. Um anyhow, it was from Texas back here. Now, when we came up in September for me to start a job, then I had to say we can look around at some apartment buildings. So that when it's time for them to come up in June, we can talk on the phone. It can be meaningful because you had seen that about.
Speaker 7Right. Right.
Speaker 1And uh we did that. And then once we came up here, we um we ended up accepting a place near where we would be high school because our youngest daughter would be in the tenth grade.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1Um and then from there we would start searching for them. And that would come really well. And then the first home we bought was on the street east of the Miles de Mountain. Down there by Waverley. I think it's in Elmwood.
Speaker 5Elmwood Drive, yeah.
unknownYeah.
New Mexico Move And Cultural Hurdles
Speaker 1And uh and the reason we bought that is because you could easily walk to the um well, turned out to be not a very good location. I said not a very good location. Because two instances, one on the basement, there's a pretty low area. But anyhow, we stayed there and did the best of it. Um and then I was in the Department of Education for between 12 and 13 years.
Speaker 6Okay, so right up into 98, towards the end of the 90s, then.
Speaker 1Um yes. April 1st of 97.
Speaker 5Uh-huh.
Speaker 1Retired.
Speaker 5Okay.
Speaker 1But something about that position.
Speaker 6Yeah, if you want to just kind of give me briefly, you know, what you did there, and then we can talk about what you did after retirement.
Speaker 1Okay. That department of school management services within the Department of Education had a number of services. One of them was regulated in so river education program. And at that time, river education was required for the first place. So I was involved. And I had a co-worker with many years of experience. It's good or bad. But anyhow, it turned out that he and I had a lot of differing opinions on how to educate livers. But Some of his one good.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Some of them anticipate people. But we visited schools, what a lot, but there was a lot of office work, which is okay. All driver education teachers needed to meet certain requirements. It was our office that granted the teaching approval.
Speaker 8Okay.
Speaker 1Not a teaching certificate, but approval. Certificate requires book of hours. Writing from beginning to end administrative rules. Rules that regulate the entire teaching process. At that time, the driver education in Michigan was stinked compared to competency. It was called competency. The goal for us was 30 hours of class, six hours of driving, the minimum. During John Inglow's tenure here, we finally, as governor, we finally got that change. There was a legislature by the name of Daniel Gustafson from Williamston. Not in driver in, but shortly after being licensed on some moving, rolling roads out there somewhere. And so he was willing to write a bill to teach Michigan's program. So he called myself and a lady by the name of Pen Waller from the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute. She and I provided the content requirements that would go into his bill. And we met with him many times. And it was introduced into the legislature. I'm thinking probably in the in two three legislative session, or else the three four something like that.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1Something like that. And it was debated. It's a very controversial change. You know, but it was a kind of dissatisfaction with the programs in existence. Just inadequate. But anyhow, it didn't pass. So when we got to the new legislative session, he and we met again a number of times, trying to remedy the disagreement with what we'd experienced the previous. And after much debate, Governor Ingler said, I won't pass, I won't send this bill into law unless we allow high schools to drop it, drop the requirement. And this was a pretty big change.
Speaker 6So basically he was saying you can put these rules in place and they either have to use these rules or they drop driver's ed from their curriculum.
Speaker 1Unless the rules, the administrative rules, allowed high schools to drop the program after one more year.
Speaker 5Okay.
Speaker 1There had to be a transition year. And um it would be of, they were already in existent commercial flavoring programs.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1But they were not very plentiful.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1This would give an opportunity for an expansion of that segment. And so one of the biggest thorns in my side that we took out of the original was that drivers could have passengers that were their own age. I'll tell you why in just a minute. But anyhow, and to get it passed in the second session, we dropped the requirement. On the range, we operated about up to 20 cars at one time. Huge range. And we communicated with those drivers with an AM frequency. Went into the radio and we had one driver. No passengers. We didn't want any distractions.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1And so when I'm and we had no accident. Great performance. Great learning outcome. So that really, I really fought that idea of allowing anybody as passenger. Too many distractions. The main c the main response you get from drivers after a craft is I didn't see you.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1They distract you for whatever reason.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1The second one is I saw you, but I didn't think you would do what you did.
Speaker 6Right. Right. Probably because the other person was distracted at that point.
Speaker 1Yeah. And maybe because they didn't have enough knowledge to take the action they needed, regardless of what they needed.
Speaker 6So here's the interesting thing is that once schools were allowed to drop it from their curriculum, they did. Like it just because I remember Everett High School had a driving range, Waverly High School had a driving range. They all had really, I thought, good programs.
Speaker 1Eventually.
Speaker 6Yeah. But then they they just got rid of everything.
Speaker 1Yeah, they couldn't compete.
Speaker 6Right.
Speaker 1Um the cost went up also. Contributed to that.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1The large school districts and the large cities were the most frequent locations of dropping the power.
Speaker 8Yes.
Speaker 1The small schools and the out in the country schools, they there still are some out there. But there's probably only a fifth of the licensed NAMAS drivers that go to one of those school books.
Speaker 6Right. Right. Very small percentage.
Speaker 1Now, since about the 1970s, when I was still in Portland, I joined the State Association of Driver Educators. And except for a period when I was out of state.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1I still am today, a member of that group. And I'm on the executive board, was on the executive board many, many years past. The point that I want to make here, I guess, is that group doesn't really have any real ability to make change. It is all it is always a case of convince somebody to make a change. So they not only controlled the licensing, as they did then, but they now control the education. And that rumbling was going on before I retired. I said, I'm opposed to that because you will have non-educators making decisions on the educational quality. And sort of Yeah.
Speaker 6So you so you retired in April of ninety-seven.
Speaker 1I retired on April one of ninety seven.
Speaker 6Where did you what did you do after that? What happened after that?
Speaker 1About the first three years.
Pivot To Texas A&M And Research
Speaker 6Yeah, you gotta have a plan when you retire, Jerry. Gotta have a plan.
Speaker 1To India. After three years roughly. Lanesburg High School. Coordinator driver. None.
Speaker 4Uh-huh.
Speaker 1Gone and said, Jerry, I need instructors.
Speaker 2Can you help me?
Speaker 6So you went right kind of right back into education, sort of.
Speaker 1I helped him find one.
Speaker 6Uh-huh.
Speaker 1And he said, I need more help. Will you instruct?
Speaker 7Oh my.
Speaker 1I said, finally, you know, I come to Kathy. Yeah, well, you know, we'll find a place for the money. So I worked in their summer program for, I think, four years.
Speaker 5Okay.
Speaker 1Now, first year I did both classroom and in-car teaching. And the director at the boy said, Jerry, I'm on teaching older classes. You can use them to have me if you want to. But then people can do the craft. So, and we were running the first year, I think we had three classes followed by two more. Because then things were pretty good number of students, and only a simple program. So then I taught the classroom. And I enjoyed the classroom. And there was the reason I did is I had a line of next experience to help me do a good job. But once I had the physics, and when you talk about it's in the ways that was a memory, all of those kind of things.
Speaker 6Yeah. Because you understood what you were talking about. So you did that for a few years and then uh And then then what?
Speaker 1And then Superintendent decided he would drop it from the school. And I tried to talk about him, because I knew him pretty well by that time.
SpeakerYeah.
Speaker 1I tried to convince him why keeping it was the good choice. But anyhow, he said it's a scheduling in a and uh so then after that um a very good friend of mine ran a teacher preparation program commercially. I was approved by the secretary. And I always thought of her as a quality person, quality educator. And um, in fact, when she was working on her master, I don't even remember what you needed a master to be able to do something expanding her business. So she said, Jerry, I can't do this. She said, Yeah, I don't know anything about research. I don't I don't gather the data, I'm gonna analyze the data, and then draw the conclusions. You've been through all that stuff, would you help me? So I did help her and uh completed a master's now with the masters. She didn't have to do a dissertation, but she had either two a mini research type of thing. You have to be the same caliber.
Speaker 6The Catstone Project is what they call it now, but yeah.
Speaker 1Anyhow, I did help her do that. And last year I turned over to her the comedy high camp of all the work I did with that. Wow. So that was good. But anyhow, she said, Jerry, my classes are so large I need somebody else in the classroom. She said, No. Secretary of State came out with a ball and the day of a master in order to teach. That was teaching preparation. That's why she said I if you would join me in the classroom teaching with your PhD, to cover this with one.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1So I was for her, not all that, but uh the ones that had large numbers. I think I had to be on her on documents that she sent.
Speaker 6Right. Right. So how how long did you do that?
Speaker 1I don't remember for sure. Okay. Four years. Now, the reason that that requirement came into existence, I think it took effect in 2007, was they wrote new regulations for future preparation and driver and teachers. And that was in wild.
Speaker 6Okay. I gotcha. So when did you finally retire, retire and stop working all the time?
Speaker 1I don't know for sure. I guess probably probably about 2010.
SpeakerOkay. All right.
Speaker 1So really, really was another characteristic that I haven't even touched upon, and that is. As I was preparing to retire from that, I said, I'm gonna have something to generate income beyond retirement. A good friend of mine said, Jerry, I'd like to show you a business. Show you the characters. And that was to become an independent business owner affiliated with the MWA Corporation. I looked at his presentation, I don't know how many hours it took, and I said, I know that this is a profitable plan. That was my best and my math got through. So um that was in the winter of ninety five. The reason I know that is because David was getting married in April of ninety five. And so I told this gentleman, yes, I would like to consider this business. I'd like to enter. But I said, we have this trip land to Japan. And uh so upon my return from there, uh we'll get together again. And that's where I started my homeway business.
Speaker 8Okay.
Speaker 1Um I made many thousands of dollars. Um let me see. At one time I don't even remember the year, we had twenty-eight couple registered in our business doing the same thing we were doing. And although we weren't getting any of their income, one of the businesses that they did had a factor that flowed through our business.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1It's the multi-level.
Speaker 7Right.
Speaker 1Um some other major and uh productive multilevel are uh let me see, what's that BBK?
Speaker 2Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1And uh lots of people.
Speaker 6Yeah, there's a few that have been around for quite a few years, but some come and go.
Speaker 1The MWA Corporation begun in 1859. And the last I knew they were doing like 18 billion per year in business.
Speaker 6Yeah, it's a big corporation for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1Um the most productive segment of our business in that was in the farm industry. Um you've heard me talk about uh excess vitamins. We take a ton of vitamins. That's why I'm still living in this age, probably. The only prescription I was in easy.
Speaker 6Yeah, you were that's what you were telling me when we were at breakfast the other day. Yeah.
Speaker 1Um but I take vitamins. And I'm not sure that I have. But because uh because I have had good health all my life. But my balance, I don't know if you want to say that, my balance is really poor. Um over the last two years or so, I'm fallen many times, sometimes rather severe injuries.
Speaker 7Yeah.
Speaker 6Yeah, we were talking about that before your interview, yeah. So we so Jerry, we've been um we've been talking for gosh, almost three hours now. Yes. And um, you know, I've learned a lot about you, and so the people are gonna listen to this. Um what I would like to do is uh ask you one more question as we kind of wrap up the interview. Um, and and it's a question I ask everyone, but uh I'm interested to hear your answer because you've done so many different things in your life. Um you've accomplished a lot. You've raised a family, um, you know, you made changes that change the way people learn, uh, and then you know uh you've shown people how to take care of themselves because um, as we said before, you're you don't take prescription medication, you you have vitamins and you get around well, and um, you know, it's 2026, so that would make you uh 95 this year? I'm gonna be 95 years in September, September 9th, yeah. So with all that said, um I'm just curious for someone who's listening to this years from now, what what message would you like to leave them with? What lesson would you like people to take away from them from your life and and from our conversation?
Michigan Policy Work And Reform Battles
Speaker 1Okay. The main thought is you should learn all of your lifetime, not just a segment. That's the main message, I think. Um I guess I would give that more meaning by saying what you do depends upon what you know.
Speaker 3And what you know people can't take away from you.
Speaker 1So never turn down an opportunity to learn something. And before you leave, I have to take a look at my bookcase. Most of my books, and even today, with exceptions, I read fifteen minutes or more. And most of my reading is self-improvement. Nothing on fantasy or stories or something like that.
Speaker 8Yeah.
Speaker 1You know, if you're gonna spend some time reading, it's something that's confusing to me. Some of the books that I'm having to give away is a books there. Um books that I will give to uh somebody like Catholic charities over here. They have a home over uh on the streets. And um they went to a presentation sometime ago, and they welcomed books. And some of those places have residents living there, and especially where there are young residents, books that can improve their lives. Um, as far as I'm concerned, much in demand. Um most of those people are looking for improvement. And I guess I would also say regarding decision making, do the right thing. Not necessarily the popular thing. All right. There will be enough other people doing the popular thing, the acting, the right thing.
Speaker 6Well, thank you, and thank you for spending your afternoon with me today. It's it's been enlightening, and I really appreciate all that you've done. Thank you.
Speaker 2Well, thank you.
Speaker 1Being a veteran has also been beneficial to me. It gave me the opportunity for Kathy and I to plan a burial in advance in one of the homes.
Speaker 8Yes.
unknownYep.
Speaker 6There's a lot of benefit to being a veteran, that's for sure.
