What If Your Life Is A Gift You Have Not Unwrapped Yet (Pamelajune Anderson)

Some people talk about service like it is a resume line. Pamelajune Anderson lives it like a calling, and she earned it the hard way. We start in Columbus, Ohio, where she grows up in a strict, loving home shaped by church, community elders, and the kind of discipline that teaches you how to stand on your own feet. Along the way, she explains the story behind her name, including the moment she refuses to be reduced to a joke and decides to define herself on her own terms. 

From there, we follow her into federal work and a blunt lesson in workplace racism that changes the direction of her life. Washington, DC opens doors, but it also intensifies the question she cannot outrun: what do you do with a call to ministry when you have tried your best to ignore it? Pamela shares the night she hears a clear warning, returns to faith, and commits to seminary at Howard University School of Divinity, where mentors and historic moments sharpen her voice and her purpose. 

Then the story turns to Navy chaplaincy: officer boot camp, hospital work, and the early HIV/AIDS era, when fear and stigma often replaced basic human kindness. Pamela describes choosing compassionate presence, even when protocol created distance, and she reflects on deployments in Europe, spiritual resilience under pressure, and the mental health realities she still navigates. We also talk about what she builds now through faith-based veterans outreach, honoring service in local congregations, and her urgent focus on veteran suicide prevention and practical support for women veterans. 

If you care about veterans, mental health, chaplain stories, or faith that holds up under real stress, this conversation stays with you. Subscribe, share this with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with the line that you cannot stop thinking about.

Transcript

Meet Pamela June Anderson

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Today is Tuesday, April 21st, 2026. We're talking with Pamela June Anderson, who served in the United States Navy. So good afternoon.

SPEAKER_03 0:09

Good afternoon, Bill.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Thank you for taking time out of your day to come speak with me.

SPEAKER_03 0:13

The pleasure is mine.

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. So we'll go ahead and get started. Um, and I always ask when and where were you born?

SPEAKER_03 0:21

Oh, well, I don't know if I'm gonna tell you the win or not, but it could be a ballpark.

SPEAKER_02 0:26

How about that?

SPEAKER_03 0:27

May 12th, 1947. I was uh born in Columbus, Ohio, Grant Hospital, into a family that already where mom and dad already had three sons and three daughters, and I broke the tie. I broke the tie. I am the youngest of seven, and I am the only living one now. Oh my goodness. All of my brothers and sisters have gone on to uh greener pastures, so shall we say?

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

As well as mom and dad. Okay. So I I I I'm carrying on the legacy by adding mom's last maiden name, which is Banks, to Daddy's last name. So my name really is Pamela June Bente, Banks Anderson.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Oh goodness.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Now I know that I know it's long, and uh there's a story behind that um when I was active duty, uh my senior officers would uh insist upon calling me Pamela Anderson because of the Pamela Anderson on the West Coast. And it didn't matter how often I very gently and respectfully corrected them. They just wanted to ride that Pamela Anderson, so I went downtown and paid $250 at that time to have my middle name, which it was June, Pamela, middle name June, attached Pamela June to have one name, added Vente, which is Islamic for Woman, and my mom's maiden name, Banks, and Daddy's last name, Anderson. So they complained, but I wouldn't have done it if they had just called me Chaplin Anderson and left it at that.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Absolutely, absolutely. So I want to back up just a little bit. So did you grow up in Columbus then? I did.

SPEAKER_03 2:30

I grew up in Columbus, Ohio, went uh graduated from Columbus East High School, um, Champion Junior High School, where they have a photograph of me uh on on the walls there at Champion, and I'm trying to remember why. Uh it it there was some award that I that I was blessed with. Boy, it's amazing what you forget, and it's amazing what you remember.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Um uh and then uh gee whiz, I went to elementary school, of course, in Columbus Wiles. The name of that is escaping me right now. Maybe because I'm getting older and I'm putting those kinds of details someplace where it takes me more than a minute to recover it.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Right. I think our minds are like a file cabinet, and there's only so much stuff you can put in there sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

I agree. I agree, yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:26

So when you uh when you went to high school, did you play sports? Did you have a favorite topic or a class?

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Believe it or not, I was on the debating team.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 3:37

And I had forgotten about that until I ordered my crucible, and I was just kind of thumbing through it, and there I was with Miss Coopery, who has probably gone on to be with the Lord by now, um, in her debate class. And I had I had forgotten about that. On the private side, though, my parents um sent me to uh become a classical musician.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 4:04

And I only, I mean, you know, we had recitals every year, but I only tested that one time, and that's when I played uh Handel's Messiah for a choir one year. And uh now I just kind of title, but yes, music and the debate team were and I loved office machines. I I was uh I was uh number two in the entire city in terms of speed with the typewriter. And um because I enjoy, I still enjoy, that's what drive drives me to the computer is the typing part. Uh-huh. Uh so those three things are are primarily, and and you know, as I talk and think about it, I was also a public speaker in in high school. Uh I would have opportunities to speak at different places.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Yeah. And I can I can see where that uh those things kind of came together. Came together, yeah. Shaped who you are.

SPEAKER_03 5:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:11

So what did your dad do for a living?

SPEAKER_03 5:14

My dad was a janitor for the for the bakery at Grover's. And uh I don't know how familiar you are with Columbus, Ohio, but the bakery was like maybe three miles from where we lived. And I tell you in the morning you could smell that bread just permeating the the community.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Uh-huh.

Family Discipline And Dinner Table Values

SPEAKER_03 5:40

And uh my mom was also a dom what what we call now a domestic engineer, or if for my dad and for my mom, it would be a housekeeper.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Right.

SPEAKER_03 5:50

And uh she was a housekeeper for the people who owned Hannah, H A N N A Paint Company.

SPEAKER_00 5:58

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 5:59

And uh it was a good life.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Seven kids and uh and domestic engineers, she was a busy person.

SPEAKER_03 6:07

Yes, yes, you can only imagine. But you know, we were well disciplined. We we knew to come home, do our homework, do our chores, and uh, I mean, I grew up in a time when we obeyed our parents.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:26

I'll just put it that way. We uh and not just our parents, we obeyed any senior citizen. Uh the neighborhood was the village.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Right.

SPEAKER_03 6:37

And uh and the extension to the village, of course, was the church. So mom was as busy as any woman would be to come home and make certain that uh, because by the time I came along, 11 years difference between me and the next one. Oh, I was the 11-year surprise.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

And so by the time I got up to be any size, um there was one sister left at home. So so um she was 11. So when I got went into kindergarten, she was um uh 16.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

So mom just had the two of us to to be concerned about. So mom would come in and and uh check to make sure the chores were done and homework was done, and then we I could go out and play while she's preparing dinner. And uh I would often meet dad at the uh at the bus stop, which was what, a half a block from the house.

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:54

And uh he he'd get off that 4:30 bus and get home and clean up, and dinner was at five.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

And you sat at the table with your parents?

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Uh Mother always blessed the food. I can never remember daddy offering a prayer. I'm sure he did somewhere along the line. But mom would offer the prayer, and um and we would eat, and you ate what was put before you. I did not care then, and I don't care now, for Brussels sprouts, um, okra, and there's one more. Brussels, oh, oh, tall asparagus.

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Asparic. Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

And asparagus. Still don't care for those three.

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Three of my favorites.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

That's is that right?

SPEAKER_02 8:48

That is, that is. Although uh okra has to be prepared properly. My family came from the south, so okra is fried, it's not boiled. And that makes all the difference. Yes, it does. It really does. I you could fry anything, it would probably taste good.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

But uh, yeah. So you mentioned church a little bit in your neighborhood, so was church important to your family then?

SPEAKER_03 9:09

And I I think church was probably more important in mom's from mom's perspective. Uh sometimes when I was growing up, I thought it was more important than family.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:28

I mean, it was really number, it was high up there on her list of things to do. Uh I remember asking Daddy, I said, Daddy, why don't you go to church? He says, I go to church every Sunday, right out there on that front porch. He said, I'm listening to the birds chirp. I'm watching what little traffic is going up and down uh the street. Uh I'm looking out for the neighborhood for folks who go to church. He says,

Church, Revelation, And Growing Faith

SPEAKER_03 10:03

That's my calling. I said, okay. But mom went every Sunday. I can never remember any Sunday that we did not go to church. Now sometimes we would even go out of town, like to district meetings or to regional meetings. And once a year we would go to uh the campgrounds in Pennsylvania where uh for for the whole week. And that was church every day, uh starting with Sunday school, or actually starting with breakfast, uh-huh, followed by Sunday school, followed by morning worship, followed by lunch, followed by afternoon worship, followed by dinner, followed by evening worship.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

Yes. And in uh in my family as well, Sunday was uh the whole day.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

And I remember sometimes being in church where you thought that the minister was about done, but he was just getting started. Just getting started. Yeah. Well, I remember those days. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 11:08

I I think the advantage though that we had in this particular congregation was that our pastor was a specialist in revelation.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_03 11:18

So I can see now what he was preaching about then.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:24

We're talking uh 60, 70, 75 years. I can still see the um, I can still see the the str the curtain stretched across the the altar um where he was explaining the beast and the harlot and uh um didn't make sense to me then. As a matter of fact, I found it frightening then.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

But it makes a whole lot of sense to me now. I can see it I that we are that we, meaning the world, is in what we call the uh birthing pain. And you know what follows the birthing pain, of course, is is the baby. Uh I and I I don't remember now what the baby stood for, but I'm I'm thinking it's the coming of Christ. That's what I'm thinking.

SPEAKER_01 12:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:25

So uh, and we are in a very interesting living in a very interesting time.

SPEAKER_02 12:31

We are. Yep. We are indeed. So I'd like to kind of shift gears a little bit and talk about um, you know, we talked about school a bit. So you graduated high school in Columbus. Uh and what was the next thing for you?

SPEAKER_03 12:45

Well, the next thing for me was at uh as go was going into the army, and daddy would not have it.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I can only imagine.

SPEAKER_03 12:57

He said, no, no, I'm not gonna have any of my daughters in harm's way. So I guess I was about, I must have been about 19. I graduated, I was 17. So I I went to work for the federal government. Uh and uh interesting, uh, the interesting how I did not recognize but the role racism played in those days. I uh the the the my counterpart got a promotion, but I didn't. And when I

Racism At Work And Leaving Home

SPEAKER_03 13:33

asked the commandant about it, he said, well, we really don't have the money for uh both of you to be promoted. And and uh in in my naivete, I wrote the Department of Army in Washington, D.C. and I said explained to them that we didn't have the money uh for me to be promoted and if they would consider sending the money for me to be promoted. Well, lo and behold, two weeks later, I get a letter of invitation to come to Washington, D.C. and work. And um, and so uh I didn't know what to do with that other than to discuss it with my parents.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:18

Of course, daddy went through the roof. He no, you can't leave home. No, you I want you to marry, I want you to get married and take it from there. Well, I I wasn't quite ready for marriage.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:33

So uh, and my mom didn't have any discussion, she just went to the telephone and called somebody that she knew in Washington, D.C. and asked if I could stay with them and and the rest is history.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03 14:47

So I stayed in the in the Washington, D.C. area and uh including Maryland. I never lived on the Virginia side, uh-huh. But I lived on the Maryland side uh uh um until 1985.

SPEAKER_02 15:02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 15:03

From the time I left home in 1967.

SPEAKER_02 15:06

So when you left home in 67, you had joined the Army by this point.

SPEAKER_03 15:09

No, no, no. I went to work for the Department of Army.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Oh, you went to work for the Department of Army. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:14

Daddy wouldn't sign for me to go in.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Got you, okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:17

So, and and so when I when I resigned, back to the story about racism.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:22

When I resigned, submitted my letter of resignation, here comes the Commandant, all hot and bothered. Well, will you stay if we can promote you? And I said, Well, I thought you didn't have the money to promote me. Listen, you're so good, we will double promote you. I said, No, I'm gonna take the offer in Washington, D.C.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 15:43

And I I it was many years before that made sense to me, but it really was racism because he found the money uh to to promote me not only to a GS3, he wanted to promote me to a GS4. And in Washington, they were offering me a GS3. But I thought about the learning opportunities in in Washington, D.C. I had been there uh on a trip, family, cousins' trip, a bunch of us just went to DC to hang out. And I was so fascinated with the city and the way it was laid out and the monuments, and so so to move to the area was no was a no-brainer for me.

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:33

Uh it was it was I I I had received the call to ministry. Oh, I must have been about 13 or 14. And I I would come home after church and I'd go to the recreation room or the lower level of the house and I would open my Bible up and I would give my lesson. Uh, that's how I knew that I was interested, at least had an interest in that kind of of a possibility, that kind of a probability, really. And the the because my first job was as a babysitter in our household. When you turn 16, you got a job, you know, papers or something. So my oldest sister arranged for me to babysit for one of the positions families there. Because, you know, they you know, that that level of community,

Losing The World And Finding Ministry

SPEAKER_03 17:33

they'd always go into some function where they needed a babysitter. And one night the the uh the the mother of the family asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up. I said, I want to be a minister. I didn't even know what I was talking about, you know, but but um but that came full circle. Um at I was at a party. I was at a party one night. Uh I'd stopped going to church and I was hanging out in the world and popping my fingers and you know, shaking my derriere and drinking my black bull and smoking my cigarettes and weed. Uh just having a good old time.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Living the life.

SPEAKER_03 18:22

Oh, I was living the devil's life, no, no matter how you cut the cake.

SPEAKER_01 18:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:26

And I was at this party and I heard this voice over my left shoulder up in the corner. And the voice said, Anderson, you've gone far enough. I said, Well, folks, I gotta go. Uh be going to church in the morning and returning, returning to the church, and if you want to see me, uh, that's where I'll be. And I did that. Um the date was February, the uh I want to say the 28th, 1979. So from 1969, I got in the city and I got into DC in 67. By the time 69 had rolled around, I was out of the church.

SPEAKER_02 19:27

So for almost 10 years you were out of the church. Yeah, over 10 years, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

Yes, yes. Uh, and the first 79, and I was in a relationship. I had co-signed for a house for us to live in. And I said, Well, Lord, how do I get out of this contract that I that I've gotten myself into? And long story short, um, I don't know how much of this I want on camera, but the Lord got me out of it legitimately.

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Yes.

SPEAKER_03 20:07

Okay. And I started going back to church more regularly. And this some somewhere along the line, I graduated from uh was my bachelor's from Johns Hopkins.

SPEAKER_00 20:29

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 20:30

And I wanted, and I knew that I had to go to seminary in order to be ordained and yada yada yada.

SPEAKER_02 20:37

So at this point you decided that you're going to be uh a minister. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 20:41

Yes. I was working for the federal government, but it you know, you know when there's a change coming because it no longer satisfied me.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

You know, it didn't satisfy me on the inside.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Right.

SPEAKER_03 20:55

Wonderful on the outside. But so um I went to seminary and God was really good to me, Howard University School of Divinity.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 21:08

And uh the dean took to me right away. He's and he would call me Pamela. He said, Pamela, I want to be your mentor. And if you will allow me to do that, um, I I you'll start by working for me. And I said, Well, Dean, I don't know that I know what I'm doing, but okay. And um I worked for his dean, his associate dean for about a year. And uh then the dean of the school spoke to the dean of the chapel, Andrew Rinken Memorial Chapel, who selected me to be his assistant. And so for the remainder of my time. There at the Divinity School, I graced the pulpit at the chapel with some pretty amazing speakers. That's where I met Dr. Jeremiah A. Wright. As a matter of fact, I I asked him for the sermon, and I still have his sermon from that particular Sunday. All these years later, um, and uh the late Patricia Roberts Harris, I don't know if that name That does not she was the first African American woman in Jimmy Carter's cabinet.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:41

She was the director at HUD. And uh her funeral, or I should say her wake, was at the chapel. And I saw all these black women with dressed in black that night, and uh and I said, Well, who are these women? And I heard this voice say, Well, it's Delta Sigma Theta, like I was supposed to know. That's why I was asking the question, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:12

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 23:13

So I pushed the envelope, I said, Oh, really? And who are you? Well, I'm the president, I'm the national president. Well, okay. You know, the sun will come up in the morning. I'm just asking questions. But uh You just want to know. I just wanted to know. Yeah. And of course, years later I became a Delta uh in 88, uh 1988. So those were probably three of the of the most amazing years in ministry. And of course, you you could not be ordained until you had a placement. And the United Church of Christ had a program, a national program, and they selected three women, and I was one of the three for an internship. And uh they said, you can go any place in the country that you want to. And I said, Well, I really want to stay here, and yeah, no, no, no, no, no. Any place in the country other than here. And I said, Okay, well, Detroit is close to Columbus. I'll I'll take Detroit. I was ordained the same year, and uh about three weeks ago, I was at that church doing one of the seven last words, so I've kept in touch with the with the pastor of that church, the honorable Reverend Dr. Nicholas Hood III. Um, that was another amazing time in the ministry. Now, somewhere in between the Andrew Rankin Memorial Chapel and Plymouth United Church of Christ, Detroit, I went to uh to boot camp. Even officers have boot camp, as you know.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Gotta learn how to be in the military, right? Yeah, because there's there's the right way, there's the wrong way, and there's the army way.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

There you go. Yeah, there you go. Or the navy way.

SPEAKER_02 25:13

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

So the summer before I graduated, I went to boot camp up in uh Newport, Rhode Island. Uh a very interesting eight weeks.

SPEAKER_00 25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

I tell you, and I could for you know, the first two weeks, you can't be in touch with family. I couldn't be in touch with my fiance.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Right.

SPEAKER_03 25:39

Uh and it it was it was different, let's put it that way. Could I do it again? Not at this age. Would I do it again if I could go back, only if I could go back a little younger.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

Yeah, because you were you were how old?

SPEAKER_03 25:55

37.

SPEAKER_02 25:56

Yeah, so you were right at that upper level of of uh being able to go, right?

SPEAKER_03 26:01

That's right, that's

Boot Camp And Chaplain Training

SPEAKER_03 26:02

right, that's right. And some of the exercises were a bit tedious. But um by the grace of God, praying mother, we made it. We made it. And uh that was a good experience until I augmented, of course. You d I I officially came into the the Navy.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Right.

SPEAKER_03 26:25

And did very very did very well. I was assigned to uh I was assigned to an a unit up in up in Upper Michigan about about an hour from Detroit.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 26:44

And um my first deployment, we've my first two weeks were in um Portsmouth, Virginia. Okay at the hospital. And of all things, I was assigned to the HIVAIDS board. Oh, what an experience. It I we didn't know then that it was that it was contagious, and you know, we'd have to robe up and uh mask up and gloves and everything. And I I said, Look, I I need to touch these people. These people need to be touched. And I would I there's one guy, I I'll never I'll I I I don't remember his name, skin and bones, and I just very gently put him in my arms and he said, you know, this is the first uh human touch I've had in my and um I had taken my gloves off and my mask off because I thought it was um I thought it was inhumane to visit with patients. I mean, unless unless you know, some of these some sometimes you're visiting patients and there's oxygen involved.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:05

You know, I can understand the gloves and the and and the and the mask, but if there's there's no danger of of anybody catching fire or anything, I'm not gonna catch this.

SPEAKER_01 28:17

Right.

SPEAKER_03 28:17

I had a praying mother, and I knew that mother was praying for me. And so I took some risk that I probably would not have taken if I didn't have a praying mother, God rest her soul. Um and after that, my next deployments and all deployments thereafter were in Europe. Oh I did get to go to Okinawa for one, uh-huh. But um for two weeks rather. And but but they were in Sicily. Oh, there was Mount Etna that was belching the night that uh hurricane, not a hurricane, an earthquake came through.

SPEAKER_00 29:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:02

And um I heard uh it woke me up. I heard all these all this screaming, abandoned housing come out into the front yard and said, What in the world is going on? Went out into the yard and there was uh Edna was was visible at night, especially

Deployments, Mount Etna, And Pushback

SPEAKER_03 29:20

if she was having an issue. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:25

Yes. You can see the hot wall and everything else, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:29

Oh yes. But I tell you something, Brother Bill. I I I won't say that on the camera, but I will say this. When I went to the office the next day, from the top to the bottom, it was covered with snow. I said, now that's interesting. That night I heard that same voice over my left shoulder, that I've come to know as the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 30:08

Go out and look to the north. She was just belching. And and the voice continued, no, and next morning, on the way to the office, covered snow, top to bottom. And the voice extended the conversation by saying, if I can make this mountain hot enough to belch fire at night, but cool enough to maintain the snow, don't you know I can take care of you? And from then on, it was smooth. I don't care what this person did, what this person said, how this person acted, uh, who had, let's see, I at that time I was uh Lieutenant JG. Um, or was I a lieutenant? At any rate, he was two or three grades above me.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:01

Didn't believe in women in ministry, and definitely didn't believe in black women in ministry, right? So uh it was not easy, but that voice had assured me that I would be taken care of, that I would live to get back to America, Mount Aetna, or no. And um, so so we got through those nine months, and I came out for a little while after that. Um I had gotten some mental diagnoses that I still deal with on a daily basis. Um but even though it was the worst, it was also the best of deployments.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

And so very often experiences turn out you think that this is the end of the world when in fact that's the beginning. So that's my short uh term on and when I with with the military. But when I came back uh in 2004, the CO said, Well, I've been looking for you. What do you mean you've been looking for me? Well, number one, we don't have any any chaplains, and you know, he said, I'm just gonna be honest. We we we need black people out here.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

Still back in Columbus. Um, and and so I it took me another year to get acclimated, to lose the weight and to get back in shape. And you know, my sister used to shake her head because you know, she was going in town, I'd ask her to drop me off at a certain corner and I'd walk back home. And she would just, she said, You really want this bad, don't you? I said, Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

So you had gotten out and now you were going to try and get back in.

SPEAKER_03 33:10

Correct.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

And you were no younger than you were before.

SPEAKER_03 33:13

No, I was not any younger.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:15

I was in my mid-50s.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 33:19

I was

Returning To Serve Veterans Full Time

SPEAKER_03 33:20

in my mid-50s. But there's something about the need of the of the of the federal government. They will bend and even break the rules if they need you.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Oh, yeah. So if it benefits them.

SPEAKER_03 33:34

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 33:35

The rules can be um changed.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_02 33:38

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

So I I and I really don't know how I did that run.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Uh I know how you did it, that voice over your shoulder.

SPEAKER_03 33:46

Yeah, I guess you're right about that.

SPEAKER_02 33:48

Yeah, that's how you did it.

SPEAKER_03 33:49

Yes. Uh, and I think about that when I see a sign overhead, such and such an exit, a mile and a half, and I look at that distance and I say, really? You got to be kidding me. At one point I could run that. Now I don't know if I could walk it.

SPEAKER_02 34:06

Yeah, I don't even like driving it.

SPEAKER_03 34:08

Right?

SPEAKER_02 34:09

Right. So you came back in, this is you said 2000.

SPEAKER_03 34:15

It must have been 2003.

SPEAKER_02 34:17

Okay. So you came back into the Navy, though.

SPEAKER_03 34:19

I did. I came back into the Navy. By then I had been promoted to lieutenant commander.

SPEAKER_00 34:25

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:26

And uh, which has its privileges. I did not want to be any higher because I didn't want a desk job.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

I really wanted to be with the sailors. So um I I retired in 09 as a lieutenant commander, and I continue working with veterans in faith-based organizations.

SPEAKER_02 34:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

That's what I'm doing. That's what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Since 2009.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

That is correct.

SPEAKER_02 34:56

Yeah. So you didn't you didn't you retired from one place, but you're still doing something else.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 35:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 35:02

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 35:02

Yeah, I can't.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

Veterans is my uh that's my ministry. That's where my heart, you know, that that's where my calling is.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

Yeah. So I did want to ask you um uh another question. I want to go back a little bit. You had mentioned a fiance in there somewhere. Did you end up getting married?

SPEAKER_03 35:19

Okay, how do I okay how do you know if you don't want to talk about it? You don't have to. No, I can talk about it now. There was a time when I couldn't. When I came when I was leaving the city, of course, I stopped by to let Howard know. He lived in Baltimore.

SPEAKER_01 35:36

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 35:36

I stopped by to let him know I was on my way. He was a National Guard. Okay. Let him know. And he'd been over to kiss me and he said, Look, I don't want you to worry. They found that I have small-scale, small cell cancer, but I'm gonna be okay. And so uh when it got to a point where we could be in touch with one another, we wrote one another.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

When I got back in September, uh, and went by the same, I didn't recognize him. He had lost all of his weight, all of his muscle mass was gone. He said, I'm gonna be okay. We're we're going to uh it's my senior year at the Divinity School. He said, You're going to school when you and and I and I did, and when I graduated, he said, Look, you've been in seminary, you've been to boot camp. Uh, time for you to go home and spend some time with your family. And I said, Well, well, and when you come back, we'll go down to the beach and make wedding arrangements. I had already bought my dress. My mom and I went to to buy my dress the year before.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

Um, and when I and I and I went home, and uh my future sister-in-law picked me up at the airport when I came back, and she said, I'm so sorry, but I need to say this as soon as I can. Howard died this morning.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Oh.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Um, he tried to wait for you. He walked all night long, knowing you were coming back today, but he just couldn't hold out any longer. So that's what happened to that. And I've never you know, I don't know if you're married or not, but you know you know what you know when you know it.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:28

And I knew he was the one.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Right.

SPEAKER_03 37:30

And so I've never really thought about uh considering anyone. Well, yeah, I did consider one one other person, but my heart wasn't in it. And I think I think he knew it because uh because um he never got to the question.

unknown 37:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:50

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that with me. I was I was just curious. And um, I I am married, I have found the one. But uh I know what you mean. Yes. Like if I lost that one, I don't yeah, I would figure out just how to do what I'm doing. Yes. So so uh after you retired, you say you like to you work with veterans, so what are you doing now with veterans? I'm I'm curious.

SPEAKER_03 38:13

What I'm doing is developing camaraderie with the veterans, because a lot of times, you know, we come back and when do we see one another? So I so I I I call these churches and I asked them if they have any veterans, and if the answer is yes, may I come out and visit with the veterans and I explain who I am and what I did in the military and what I would like to do, and and um I'm I'm working with four churches right now that I have not been working with since I got COVID in 2003. It's I mean 2023. Is that right? Yeah, okay. Um, and I've experienced some long um term symptoms and I I really must guard my energy, it doesn't take much.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:09

So I I haven't been back to the churches since 23, but I am contacting these four churches that I was working with to let them know that I would like to come back, but I'd like for it to be a Sunday afternoon as opposed to a Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

So um, because most of our churches start worship at 10. Well, if you're all if you're an hour away, that means I need to get up and be on the road by 8.30. Well, I don't want to get on the road and be get up and be on the road by 8.30.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:42

It's it's it's time for me to take care of myself, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_03 39:46

So that's why I'm asking for afternoons and so far, so so good. And and what we are doing, in addition to developing camaraderie, is developing aveloping a gallery of the veterans in the congregation and take pictures with the with sometimes their individual, sometimes their group, uh, with the pastor, and with my and and I'm there in uniform. Um and the operating scripture for these galleries is uh the one about uh uh a man laying a person laying down his life for his friends. Right, because any one of us would have been willing to do that in combat, let down our lives for our friends, for our fellow comrades. And we we post it in a visible place, someplace in the church. A lot of times that's the fellowship hall. And what that does is leave with the church a visual history of the men and women from that congregation who served. And we have a that that that photo, that gallery sits on that scripture. And then across the top is Space for Grace, which is the name of uh which is the name of my organization. Yes, at whatever the name of the church is. Okay, and the pastor, put the pastor's name up. So that's what we're doing. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

That's very nice.

SPEAKER_03 41:39

Very time consuming and in some ways very emotional.

SPEAKER_02 41:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

It can uh it can wear you out at times.

SPEAKER_03 41:47

It can, it can, but I suspect that I'll be able to um wrap this up in about 10 years.

SPEAKER_00 41:57

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_03 41:58

Uh and I'm also meeting with a fellow veteran uh who has her own office. She is now a therapist, I think. And um there's a positive, and I'm getting ready to go back and get my certification in Christian counseling. And uh my my jeweler is just getting ready to do her. Um, what do you call it when you're when you're going to become a psychologist and you have to write up, what did they call those?

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Oh, her like her dissertation?

SPEAKER_03 42:38

No, not the dissertation, the one-on-ones that you that you have to write up. It seems clinical pastoral education that you have to write up. Well, it maybe it'll come to one of us. Um, she is going to be working with this person. She's given this person a copy of my latest book, which is um Healing My Soul on Purpose, a Veteran's Guide to Suicide Intervention. And we're going to do a follow-up to that book for everybody, Suicide, a guide to suicide intervention. Because the one that I've written is really uh on college level, and I need to write one on elementary school level.

SPEAKER_00 43:21

Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 43:24

Um, and so the uh another part of me wants to acquire uh a hotel type of a structure and have it configurated f as a two bedroom uh apartment for women veterans uh who may be homeless. Uh I don't think at this point it's necessarily a good idea to mix the men and the women. They're getting the they're getting one of my colleagues in uh a federal veteran is getting ready to um build what they call tiny houses.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Right, yes.

SPEAKER_03 44:14

Down the way here, not too far from here. And maybe they'll mix there. But um that's a that's a vision that I've had for quite a while.

SPEAKER_02 44:24

So you have some you have some plans to uh I do to accomplish. I do.

SPEAKER_03 44:29

And I think I think that I can do this by the time I'm I'm 89. I think I can do it. I'm just gonna do it by the time I'm 89.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

I but I believe you. I believe you. Well, we've we've covered a lot in our discussion today. Um so really have two questions left. And the first question is, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you'd like to talk about? Um Is there anything that we haven't covered as we as part of our discussion that you think would be important?

SPEAKER_03 44:58

I I think that this is important, and I'm hoping that what I'm hoping that I'm on track to address that need nationally. We're still at 21, 22, 23 veterans who take their lives every day.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

Right.

SPEAKER_03 45:17

And so dealing with uh suicide intervention, how do we get to the service member or how do we get to the veteran before uh they take their lives? Um and if there is that tendency there, because I was diagnosed with suicide ideation, so how do I use my diagnosis to reach those who are also diagnosed with suicide ideation and have support groups to share with them

Suicide Prevention And Final Message

SPEAKER_03 46:00

how I am still living uh uh after the initial onset, uh twice suicide um survival, survivor. And uh and I and I tell you, uh and I'm not ashamed to of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I prayed my way through it.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:22

A lot of the credit though, all of the glory goes to God, but a lot of the credit goes to me and my psychiatrist. We finally, just this year, found the right medical, the right medicines, uh balance of medicines. And now uh it doesn't even it it well every now and then it crosses my mind if I've had a rough day.

SPEAKER_01 46:48

Right, right, but no plans, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:53

So that that's that's the the number one thing, even though this this housing piece is in front of that, and in front of the housing piece is the church piece. So we've got the church piece is number one, the housing is number two, and this um suicide uh intervention is number three, uh which is the hardest piece. Right. Which is the hardest piece, and the most emotionally draining piece.

SPEAKER_01 47:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 47:21

And I'm hoping that that uh, or I'm believing, not just hoping, which well anticipating believing, we're pretty much in the same family, that I'll be able to do just get started on that uh really relatively soon. So those are the three things per se that we've not talked about that are near and dear to my heart. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 47:44

It sounds like really they even though they're a step-by-step process, right? They all kind of play in together. So it'll be interesting to see how that unfolds for you over the next few years. Um but as we kind of wrap up our conversation today, um, I do have one final question, and that is for someone who listens to your story a hundred years from now, you know, when neither one of us are here to explain it, um, what what would you like to leave with them with? Like what piece of advice would you give to people who are hearing your story years from now?

SPEAKER_03 48:18

That you don't have to take your life. Your life is a gift. And what you must take time to discover is how to gently unwrap this gift that we call life. Shit happens to all of us. Righteous, unrighteous, tall, short, fat, skinny, veteran, non-veteran. It happens to all of us. So you have something in common with probably 90% of the rest of the world, and maybe you just don't know that you are not in this by yourself. You have my story, you have my experience, you learn how to pray. As a matter of fact, I brought this in to give to you.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

We put this together: prayers, praying, prayers. And you have this that you can get on Amazon, uh that that will teach you what prayer is. And uh yes, you are eligible to pray. And yes, if you are sincere and interested in becoming uh a son or daughter of the Lord's, one of the Lord's sons or daughters, then all you have to do is confess your sins and repent and call on the name of Jesus and you know believe that he rose from the dead, and and and you're at it. And and Jesus has this one prop propose, and he keeps all of his promises, but this one, I will never leave you, nor forsake you. Now, if you're not interested in Jesus, I can't help you. You have to check with somebody else and whoever it is that they serve, or whoever it is that they worship, or whoever it is that they follow. But that's who I follow, and it makes all of the difference in the world.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

Well, Dr. PJ, thank you for sharing all of that with us today. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_03 50:38

Well, thank you. I appreciate you. You you have been very kind, very gracious, and uh I I hope that maybe five or six years down the road we can double back and see where we are.

SPEAKER_02 50:50

We'll do part two.

SPEAKER_03 50:51

We'll do part two. How about that?

SPEAKER_02 50:52

That'd be great.

SPEAKER_03 50:53

Okay.