What If We Saw One Another As People (Takura Nyamfukudza)

You can hear the pivot points in Takura Nyamfukudza’s life the moment he describes them: finishing school in Zimbabwe, getting on a plane to join his mom and sister in the United States, then spotting a Humvee display on a college campus and realizing he wanted something structured, demanding, and bigger than himself. That choice turns into 12 years in the U.S. Army, deployments overseas, and eventually a new mission back home in a Michigan courtroom as a criminal defense attorney. 

We talk about what it really feels like to immigrate as a teenager, how language and culture can trip you up in surprising ways, and why disciplined environments can either crush you or forge you. Takura shares vivid basic training memories from a pre-smartphone Army, the way friendship and teamwork get you through the worst days, and the leadership truth that sticks long after the uniform comes off: you can delegate authority, but you can’t delegate responsibility. 

Then we go deep on criminal defense law, trial work, and why everyone benefits from a strong defense bar even people who never hire a lawyer. Takuro breaks down what a “win” actually means in criminal cases, from suppressing evidence to protecting a license to negotiating years off a sentence that would change a family forever. We close with his method for staying grounded, his love of travel, and a message he hopes lasts: we may disagree, but most of us want the same things. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:33

Today is Wednesday, April 22nd, 2026. We're here talking with Takuro Naam Fukudza, who served the United States Army. So thanks for taking time out of your day to talk with me.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Thank you for the invitation. I was a surprise when I got the voicemail. Actually, I saw it ringing and I thought it was spam, but then I listened to the voicemail. We played phone tag for a few days, but we got it done.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

Here we are. Yes. Excellent. So we'll we'll dive right in. When and where were you born?

SPEAKER_01 1:01

I was born in Zimbabwe. 1981. So in June, I'll be uh I'll be 45.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Okay. Two years before I graduated high school.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Thanks for making me feel old. No trouble. My pleasure. Aim to please. So did you uh grow up in Zimbabwe or did you uh when did you make your way here? Well, I want to hear all about your childhood.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Yeah, yeah. So yes, I was born in Zimbabwe uh when I turned 16. So the education system is slightly different, right? It's a former British colony. So uh I took what are called the the GCE O levels, just the high school finals. My sister came to the U.S. first, then my mother came. So after I finished high school, I was in boarding school for four years. We go to school year-round. We don't get the summer off like do here. But the day after I finished my last final, I got on the plane and joined my mom and sister here. So uh I worked for a year, a number of different jobs, Burger King, uh women's clothing store. I I sold knives, worked at grocery stores, all sorts, and then I started college when I was 17. And um yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

So you had that time to discover what it was you didn't want to do.

Boarding School And Discipline

SPEAKER_01 2:24

Yes, right, yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

And so you just have one sister? Do you have any other brothers and sisters?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Uh just my my mom and and dad had just my sister and and myself. Okay. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

And did you go to boarding school your whole time in school?

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Yes. Oh, what was that like? Unlike here though, it's not for bad kids. Right. Right? Because normally when when you hear that somebody here went to boarding school as because they were just, you know, a a handful, and and the parents just, ah, you know, let me get them out of the house. Um, but I think it actually prepared me well for the army because every year uh from the time you you are a uh well freshman, we called it something different. Anyhow, every year you get more privileges, and just by looking at somebody's uniform, you can tell what year they're in. And there were even certain pieces of grass that you could not walk on until you had achieved a particular grade. And um very regimented. We woke up at a particular time, we ate at a certain time and place, and so it was it was practice. Little did I know it was practice for the army.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Sounds very much like the army, honestly.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Do a lot of push-ups there, did you? Boatload, boatload. Uh, you know, we woke up at the same time, uh, we had breakfast, personal hygiene, go to class, eat, sports, study, lights out, repeat the cycle. On the weekends, sometimes we would get weekend passes, uh-huh. And um hear what you would call uh, I guess the varsity, um, yeah, the varsity teams. Yes. We all had to support them, uh, and so the entire school would be there cheering them on, and we have war cries, and so yes, but it was a lot like the army.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Sounds like a great experience. It was, I loved it. Yeah, yeah. And so what about your parents? What did your what uh what was your dad's vocation? What did he do?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

So my father wasn't, he was a teacher for a long time, but uh the last name, anyone from Zimbabwe, or certainly my age or older, and some people younger too know the name because he's an author. And actually, I studied some of his uh poems in in high school. And the teachers were oh, so this last name is this is the surname, it's the same as yours. Did you know this person? Um yeah, so so is it a cousin? Oh no, no, no, not a cousin. Oh so but but you've met this person, yeah, yeah, I know him. So so not an uncle, no, no, not an uncle. And finally we landed at, you know, so father. Oh my goodness, it would act like I I wrote the book, so helped write the poems. Nah, long before it even thought of me, he'd written this stuff. So he was a teacher for a long time. And um actually, one of the guys that went to uh grade school, prime what we call primary school, I guess grade school here.

SPEAKER_02 5:27

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Uh he's out in Hollywood and working on turning one of my dad's books into a movie. But you know. Oh. And my mom, she's always been a nurse. She's a nurse today. Uh from before I was born, she was a nurse. So yeah, going on it's 40-something years she's been a nurse.

Why His Family Moved

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Okay. Yeah. All right. And so uh you g you you turned 16, um, your your mom and your sister had come to the States, and then you uh followed on. Um what was the driving force? Why why come to the United States?

SPEAKER_01 6:03

So there were so they my mom left when I was 13.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

And there were a lot of economic changes happening, and she just didn't think that based on where she thought things were going, that that would be the best place, you know, for our future, just in terms of opportunities and so on. And she turned out to be right. Zimbabwe unfortunately enjoys the dubious distinction of being the first country uh in the 21st century to achieve what we call hyperinflation. And actually, there isn't a Zimbabwe dollar. You go up there and you spend US dollars, that's the currency, because what once was the local currency. I mean, to to buy like basics, you would need so much of it. Literally, people would be carrying, you know, duffel bags of cash in there. So, but and I'm not claiming she's clairvoyant, but but you know, I I guess um, yeah, she just thought, boy, this is probably for the future of my children, this is probably not where I want them to be. And so for school and all of that, she she brought us here.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

I think moms have a certain amount of clairvoyance. No arguments out of me. That and eyes in the back of their head is what we say. There you go. There you go. Absolutely, and I think that people like that watch the news and see things don't really see Zimbabwe, probably the way that you saw it, right? It was it was a a wonderful place.

SPEAKER_01 7:38

Absolutely. Uh, so you know, and also because I grew up before, you know, I don't have any kids, but it certainly based on what we do here, uh I had a different childhood. You know, we were outside playing all the time, and certainly uh my first time experiencing snow was when I got here. So we were outside all the time. Um and the saying it takes a village to raise a child, that certainly was my experience. Uh there were no strangers anywhere in the neighborhood. And shoot, I didn't know my mom's first name until I was 20-something, right? Because we respected everybody, adults and such. But um frankly, a lot of the rules that we have here, we didn't need because if I had gone to any store, you know, liquor store, and purchased alcohol and started drinking, you didn't need the police, you didn't need an MIP statute in place. Whoever saw me engage in those sort of shenanigans would have done something about it, and then would have told my mom. And because they had to do something, I had another thing coming. But um, it was fun. Um yeah, and of course, I still have you know friends from my childhood who I'm close with today. Yeah, but yeah, it was it was it was a completely different place. Um people were just friendlier. Um, and uh yeah, it it was it was a great experience. We wouldn't trade it for anything.

SPEAKER_00 9:19

Yeah, well, and that whole thing too is um, you know, it's so I uh I I think sometimes people feel it's a better to get in trouble with the law than it is to have your mom find out what you did, right? Yeah, like that that's all the law you needed.

SPEAKER_01 9:34

So when I started college, you know, I was 17, so I was younger than a lot of my classmates.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

And I remember I went to a house party, cops came and they said, All right, uh, anyone who's over 18 or 18 would just just leave. And I should have just left because they really were checking IDs. But you know, to me, hey, cops, position of authority, you know. So uh when they took me into custody, had to call my mother, and she had to drive four hours. Oh yeah, yeah. I would have preferred to just do a weekend and not have her find out, but yeah, you're absolutely right.

Culture Shock In American College

SPEAKER_00 10:19

Yeah, yeah. So what's it like for a young man? I mean, you're 17, you're in college. I mean, you had been in boarding school, so this wasn't really new, but college here has to be a little bit different than boarding school back home, right? So back in Zimbabwe. So yeah, how what was that like for you?

SPEAKER_01 10:42

So I was still assimilating, first of all, to being in the US. Right. So little things, for example, I'll never forget uh like an eraser, what you were calling an eraser here, right? I I grew up calling that a rubber. So I remember leaning over and asking one of my classmates, a young lady, excuse me, um, do you have a rubber? Let me have a rubber, please. And she looked at me like I had and I was I didn't understand, like, what's the problem? Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:22

I just want to erase this, right?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

Right, like okay, you you you're weird in my mind. I was like, why is she so stingy? What's the problem? Okay, um, but I mean, just little things like language, uh uh it took a while to assimilate, and then going from so I experienced a lot of firsts. And at that time, once I got to college, right, I experienced enough things that you know, some of the parlance I was familiar with and so on. Um, but it's it's a completely different place, you know. Uh so college has its own different culture. And um I it it it it it took a lot. It took a lot, and um I think that may have had something to do with why I I gravitated. Once I had the opportunity to enlist, I was like, oh yeah, this is something that is more like something I I'm familiar with and and lived and experienced for a long time. I was coming out of a class and they had a Humvee with the 50 cal and a big screen with people jumping, you know, airborne troops. I was like, oh wow, I could do that. Yes, you travel the world and sign me up. So um it it it was that was more predictable, was more comfortable, a lot like boarding school. And so, yeah, but it was it was it was a lot because just coming, you're still trying to assimilate. And even on my last deployment, I remember uh we were going from the barracks to a range, you know, we were qualifying, and then a platoon sergeant was immediately in front of me. We were the last ones to get on the bus. I said, Son Roviero. This is my first time on a yellow bus. And he said, Well, sir, good thing it's not a short one. Right? And at that point, I'd been here for you know 20-something years, but still I was experiencing first, right? Right, because I graduated at home, so there was no reason for me to be on a yellow bus. Uh, so I there's still some things, even though I've been here for quite some time, that I didn't experience, and it doesn't happen as frequently, but there's still things that I encounter for the first time that I'm like, oh, okay. But yeah, it was I mean, college itself, just being here in the first place was a lot, big change. Then college thrown into a whole new different mix with different people from different places. So yeah, it was it was a lot.

SPEAKER_00 14:03

Well, I think it's one of the to me, one of the fascinating things about the United States is that even if you speak English, uh uh they speak a different English in Arkansas than they speak in Maine, and they speak a different English in California than they speak in Florida. It's uh very hard, it's very regional. Uh there's different dialects, and it's very hard, I think, to learn how to speak English in America.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

And it it no matter where you learn here, in the what you learn in the classroom setting, what's what's in the textbook doesn't match as soon as you step out of that room. It doesn't match how people communicate.

Enlisting And Basic Training Reality

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah, yeah, it's it's learned experience, is what it is. So you uh did you uh get your degree then before you enlisted in the military? Did you finish college?

SPEAKER_01 14:59

So um not not before. So I enlisted when I was in my beginning of my sophomore year.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Uh okay, 1718 out of 1099, April. Yeah, that that would have been beginning of my sophomore year.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

Um, so so I I didn't have it yet. I didn't have I was working on it. Okay. I didn't have it yet.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Now, did you go to basic training then right away?

SPEAKER_01 15:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. OCI, once uh Fort Benning. Fort Benning. So were you like in the ROTC program then? Or uh so no, no, no. Uh I I I went green to goal, enlisted man for six years, then OCS, and then I was an officer.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Okay, yeah. Very similar to what I did. Yeah. Um I did it way later in life, though.

unknown 15:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Uh but okay, so okay, okay, I understand. So you uh enlisted and you went off to to basic training. Tell me what was that like day one for you? Um I don't think that I don't think that was like boarding school at that point, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:08

No, no, no. So it was a different army then than today. So this is uh 1999 and combat 11 Bravo, combat up. There were no the only women we saw uh were when we went to the D FAC. And so uh the the stuff the drill sergeants said and could do much different.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Um it was very yeah, it was very colorful.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah, we'll say that. Um and you know, I I I was listen, I was with people who came from all over the country. So I I was the first black person that a lot of the people in my platoon had ever you know been around.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Um but what was emphasized was look, here there's only one color, that's green. Uh and you know, uh very quickly a lot of people um for what for whatever reason, either because they couldn't make the PT or whatever it is, or they couldn't qualify, you know, some people tried to run away, and you know they're out there, yeah. Um, so the herd was called, and I I I it's not supposed to be easy because of the nature of the undertaking, but uh I learned something that I believe strongly today, right? Friends uh will help multiply joys and divide sorrows. So no matter how tough it was, you knew you weren't doing it by yourself. You suck it up and drive on, you know, the troop to your left and your right will help you through it. All of that team building is stuff that I rely on here, even today, with our team here in practice. So it's supposed to be challenging, right? So physically, mentally, was I I I embraced the challenge. Um and and I was glad that I toughed it out. But but certainly there were moments when I was like, Well, why why am I doing this? So why am I doing this?

SPEAKER_00 18:29

Kind of question your own judgment a little bit, right?

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Right. But no, I've I've still got friends from back then, um people who I without having to explain why. If if I called today, would they be there? And in likewise.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Right. And so you were inventory then, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And you so you uh it was all one training session, then, right? You went you woke you went to to bed after boot camp and woke up in um in AIT, but it was all really that's right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

And it it was oh boy, again, the language, I mean everything from so again, this is before cell phones, right? Right? So I I I don't know what they do now, but we we we arrived and they said you have two minutes. You call whatever phone number. If you get a hold of somebody, great. If not, uh you leave them a uh a message, tell them you'll be writing a letter, and that was our communication with the outside world. So these troops today, I I I imagine, I don't know, I don't know what they do with with the phones, and yeah, you know, I'm guessing, I imagine that they take them and you know they have to turn them in with all the other personal effects. But yeah, we arrived, called, uh I'll be writing. And when the letters came, it was worth the 25 push-ups that they made us do. And then when we figured out, oh uh, so if I write a letter, or all of us in the squad write a letter to this guy, doesn't matter who the letter comes from, he's gonna have to as we would say beat his face, right? Do the push-ups.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Right. So I haven't heard that in so long. Yeah, yeah, I've been told to beat my face more than once. Yeah, actually, somebody tell me to to beat my face until they were tired.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 20:43

Yeah, yeah. I remember those days. So you all decided to write one poor guy a letter each.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

That must have been entertaining to watch.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Oh yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah. Yeah, good times, good times.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

Um you get through AIT, and then what's next? What happens after that?

Deployments And Becoming An Officer

SPEAKER_01 21:01

Uh so I was we're deployed to uh uh Bosnia, and we were running missions into Kosovo also, um, then came back, and very early on, actually during that deployment, Captain Thompson, I'll never forget. I I don't know what it was, saw something in me, whatever it was, but it's on me. Listen, you you you should you should become an officer. I was like, what, me?

unknown 21:28

What?

SPEAKER_01 21:29

And at that time, officers were people who we only saw when you know the full bird was coming or the channel and so on. But otherwise, we we we didn't know who they were, what they did. And the guys from the south who would call any of the NCO served because that was what they were accustomed to. I work for a living, I work for a living. So that just it didn't compute in my mind. But um after the deployment, Officer Thompson stayed on me. Uh uh, and then eventually with the OCS and um my last deployment was to the sandbox. So yeah, I did six and six. And at that point, I was like, you know what? I um I went ahead and wrapped up school, and then I knew I did not want so criminal justice uh is what I got my degree in, but I knew I didn't want to be a probation officer or cop. So law school just seemed like the next logical step, right? Uh so unlike Some people who they're five or six years old and they know, oh, I want to be a judge, I want to be an attorney. That wasn't me. It was just a process of elimination. And actually, when I started, because my sister, she's a dentist, and my mom is a nurse, they uh strongly encouraged me to go the medical route. And then I was like, nope, it took me exactly no time to figure out that wasn't for me. So I switched to political science.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

Um, but yeah, I was uh so you were six years enlisted and then you went to OTS, yeah, and then you were six years as an officer. And um, so how many more deployments did you have then uh in between all of that?

SPEAKER_01 23:12

So I I just one in one yeah, so um and you know the the second one, of course, very different because we as an enlisted man, you're just worried about okay, we come off the mission, we're done, you clean your stuff, you do your PMCS, and we were in the gym, right? 24-hour defense. I got big, the strongest I ever was. And until it's your time on the mission, right? You go from black, red, green, QRF. Once you're off the mission, you have no other worries in the world. But you know, as an officer, you're never done. Right. You're never done, right? Doesn't matter where something happens, your troops could be however many hundreds of miles away, but you're still responsible for them, right? You can delegate authority but not responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Right. Um, so so were you were you a company commander then on that deployment? XO. XO, okay. Yeah. XO was at a company level then? Or oh okay.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Uh and when I was thinking about when when the commander got wind of me thinking about hanging out my boots, uh, the battalion commander actually came and said, listen, before we get on the plane to go back on us, I I I'll sign the paperwork, do whatever we need to to keep you in. I say, you know what, thank you. I appreciate it. And um, but I was like, yeah, this is I'm just I'm ready to see what's going on in the civilian world and uh yeah, wrap up my school and everything else. And then um that's a tough choice of 12 years, though. But that was that point, right? Fish or cut bait.

SPEAKER_03 25:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Unless you're gonna go all the way through, it doesn't make sense. And I was still young enough, I suppose that if the civilian thing didn't work out for me, I could come back in. Um, but I I I was at the top of my game. I was, I was, I knew I was a good troop. And um, you know, rather than being booted out, I felt like I stepped aside on my own terms. And also, because I came in as Joe Snuffy, uh taking 200 troops downrange was something I never, ever, ever thought I would do. So already I'd accomplished more than I ever thought I would when I first signed the papers.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Oh, yeah. So um it wasn't easy, but um I feel like the military does that though. When you step back and look at the things that you accomplished and did, it was always more than you thought you could ever do.

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Because you're it's mind over matter, right? Your body will do what your mind tells it to do.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Exactly. Listen, the number of road marches or company runs, everything where you know, look, your feet, your back, everything is telling me anytime now we can stop. But up here, one foot in front of another, and and and you may not know how long the run is or the rock march is, when we're gonna stop, but it eventually you you just make it. But it's it's that Mike Fox trap, you just tough it out, you hang on, and uh yeah. But a lot of people would just quit.

SPEAKER_00 26:32

They just yeah. Yeah. It was my experience, you never believe what they tell you when they say it's gonna be a seven-mile, it's a 12-mile rug march and always ends up being a 15-mile rug march. Exactly. You're gonna do a seven-mile run today and ends up being 10 miles. So it never exactly. I don't, I never I stopped believing what they told me. I just kept going until they told me that. That's it. Exactly. And I think those lessons carry on in your civilian, into your civilian life too.

SPEAKER_01 26:56

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Gives you perspective on what was really important.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Exactly. You know, mission first. Look, um, like they always told us, okay, look down at your blouse, US Army first, and then your name. So it's not about you, right? Country first, same thing now as an attorney, the interests of my client, right? Right? The people, the people I'm representing. And it's like I told my troops, uh, courage is not the absence of fear, it's carrying on in spite of it. So the number of times every I've picked a lot of juries, and they'll never know looking at me, but those butterflies in my stomach, if they knew how I was feeling, uh, they wouldn't want me as close as I sometimes come to where they're seated. Because if this dude's gonna throw out, you know, but work through it. You work through it, and also um, you know, failure to plan is a plan to fail. But once you plan the work, you have to work to plan. So that is critical here, right?

Leaving The Army And Law School

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Well, and no plan survives the first shot fired either. So I mean it's all that big circle that happens. So let's back up a little bit. So you get out after 12 years.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Um, what was it like for you to know that, hey, this is the last time I'm putting this uniform on? How'd that feel?

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Uh I don't know if sad is the word, but I I knew I would miss it.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

Uh and I still have the Kevla that you know, I still have certain things. Um, and I knew though that there were things inside me that would never leave me. But it it was there were times when I questioned if I made the right decision. Uh listen, especially during law school, I was like, oh my goodness, this while a lot of the skills and and and and values that Uncle Sam poured into me helped me make it through law school, there were times when I was like, boy, this new thing I'm taking on, this is requiring a lot of mental horsepower, which if I just stuck with what I've known for so long, nah, I wouldn't be having to wrap my mind around this. And and and and so there were a lot of times when it got tough, like, and it did many times, but then I said, you know what? But even then, there were times when I was like, this sucked. Um, and I saw a lot of people fall off and quit, and I didn't want to be that guy. I was not gonna be that guy. But no, I'm I I definitely missed it. And um, I know it's a different army now. But yeah, no, there were definitely times where I I questioned my decision, questioned my decision many, many, many times. Uh but now I I can say now in retrospect, no regrets, but I I did miss it for a long time. Right. And I got those calls, and there were several times I was like, yeah, I I no, don't do it. Stay with the decision you made. No, I I did miss it. I did miss it. Absolutely. So where did you go to law school? Cooley. So right here in Lansing. And uh I took a couple of classes at the Auburn Herb Auburn Hills campus before they closed that down. But yeah, all my all my classes except for those two were right here in uh in Lansing.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Okay, yeah. And what year did you graduate? What year did you uh graduate and then pass the bar?

Choosing Criminal Defense And Starting A Firm

SPEAKER_01 30:27

Uh 2013. So uh 20, yeah. So graduated January 20th of 2013, took the uh February bar, and then May 20th is when I got the envelope telling me that I'd pass, and I was like, yes. So I'll tell you, I was more relieved than anything that I just didn't have to take that uh what I call a quiz again, a quiz from hell. Uh and then um I started uh so May June, so 3rd of July of that year is when I started with. So at the time, my current business partner was she had a partnership with someone else. Uh they did family law and criminal defense there. So my business partner and I, we were the criminal defense folks, and after four years, you know, we just left the family law folks where they were and we we started this.

SPEAKER_00 31:27

Why criminal law?

SPEAKER_01 31:29

So if if you had until I started doing it, honestly, I thought I knew I was gonna be a litigator, I knew I wasn't gonna be a death jockey, absolutely not. But I would have told you that I was probably gonna be a personal injury plaintiff as well. So, you know, all those billboards you see when you're 96 and 94, the gloves won't fight for you and uh the buses and all of this.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

My favorite one though was this past Christmas with uh Santa Claus. Uh he there's in Detroit. Santa Claus like slips on somebody's walkway. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

Slip a part, yes, yeah, exactly. That's what I thought I was gonna be doing. But um once I once I started working with my then boss, but now business partner, day one, so unlike at some law firms where so there's some firms that have like thousands of attorneys, literally offices all over the country, some all over the world. Now, in in some of those firms, if you ever make it to the courtroom, they're gonna park you at a desk where you're just cranking out motions and writing briefs and so on. But because we're a small firm, day one, we were in court. I was writing motions, arguing them, briefs and everything, trying cases. I was like, yes, this is what it is, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:51

Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

So I guess it was when I was an enlisted man, the same way I looked at polls, right? Uh listen, I'm I'm come at arms, we're in the mix, you know, we're doing the stuff. So I I wanted to be that dude, and to me, that was the litigator rather than a transactional attorney. But I was like, hey, you know, I'll try it out at this criminal defense thing, and I fell in love with it immediately, immediately. So I I until I started doing it, I I I I would have told you I was I would be doing something else. But once I started, yeah, yeah. It was like quicksand. I wasn't going anywhere, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Right? Yeah. So how was the decision to to break off and start your own firm with your partner? Was that uh uh talk talk me through that?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

So while there were you know two departments, you know, the the the family law and the and and the criminal defense, um we you know there were some differences in in the procedures that we followed, and I think because we had in the criminal defense department a team because we're such a small firm at the time, we had a group of talented people, right, who were all as passionate about what we did. Because I'll tell you, uh a lot of people think that just because we represent somebody that we condone their behavior, right? That's not true, and what a lot of people don't realize is everybody in the community should actually want a strong defense bar. Because every time I file a motion to suppress an evidence gets suppressed, whoever you are, if you're driving your car, that cop, when you drive past, he's gonna be like, Do I really want to deal with that bow tie guy? So our efforts benefit people who we don't represent, right? Anyhow, um it just seemed to make sense, uh, but they had been partners for quite some time. And it it it it wasn't as difficult for me because when I came in, I I I came into a you know well-established department. So I I think it was tougher for my for my now business partner than it was for me. For me, I was like, yeah, we're a great team. Let's go. Let's go. Um, but it it was you know, you you you don't know is that phone gonna ring? Are people gonna call us? Um, so it initially, of course, you're nervous. Um we we have we only do criminal defense work. So we are one of the few firms here in Michigan that don't also do, you know, like civil stuff to supplement. But it it was um also because unlike some some of the firms that people are familiar with, because they see them everywhere, right?

SPEAKER_00 36:06

It's like boy certain names that everyone knows.

First Trials Fear And Confidence

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Exactly. Yeah is is is our people gonna know who we are? Um, is the word gonna get out there? Because we work on the referral system, right? Uh we we now at this point have had you know judges, even prosecutors refer family members and and and people to us because they know the value of our work. But in the beginning, it's like, boy, was this the right decision? But thankfully that phone was ringing, and um we've we've been we've been busy, we've stayed busy.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Well, that's a good segue because I want to ask you this too. You said in the beginning, talk to me about the very first time it was just you uh in the courtroom, you're you're the guy. Tell me what was that like for you?

SPEAKER_01 37:21

So thankfully, uh just like in the army, crawl walk run, right? There wasn't so there's some firms where for whatever reason, where they say to to the associate, you know what, here's your file, uh go to this courthouse, figure it out. Like there wasn't anything that I did for the first time without at least talking through it and having my, you know, at the time boss throw some hypotheticals at me. But uh so, you know, but but again, the difference between a rubber ducky and and sending those five, five, six rounds downrange is quite different. But um it it it was still helpful, it gave me a little bit of confidence, but that's where I remembered standing in front of my first platoon, and they're looking at you, they're sizing you up. It's like a first date. And I knew that I would I was setting the tone, and and also the first platoon I had, uh, my platoon sergeant, he hadn't had a platoon leader for like years. Oh so it in his eyes, he didn't need me. Right. What do I need this this butter bar for? I I don't need him. My platoon's been running just fine without it. So um, but not it, it was, I was like, this is real life. And depending on how well or how poorly I do, somebody could find themselves behind bars, and then it just doesn't affect them, but also their family. So it was something I took seriously. Um, but yeah, it was it was scary. It was scary. But my first uh first three trials, first soul, three trials, I won. I'm gonna try them the same way today because you know, more experience and so on, and I'm more comfortable in a courtroom. But um just like you know, every time you go on the range, you keep your head in the swivel, you know, you that muscle memory, uh, you pay attention. Uh, but it was it was it was scary. It was scary that butterflies. Because this is the real person who is depending on me, and what happens on this record could determine the course of their life for a long time. Yeah, it was it was scary, but absolutely went well, and I was like, okay, I'm good at this, I'm pretty good at this thing.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

Yeah. So as good as you are, has there ever been a time where someone's just kind of thrown something at you and and you didn't see it coming?

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Yes, yes, how'd how'd that feel? Um I tried um to to hide the shock.

SPEAKER_00 40:13

Uh-huh.

What Counts As A Legal Win

SPEAKER_01 40:14

Um and I I I'll tell you this, as a defense attorney, I think a lot of people will ask, so how many trials have you won? What folks don't realize is well at least it to me, I others may not agree with this, but I think as a defense attorney, what one counts as a win is different than what you know lame people consider a win. So even if you are better prepared, uh more knowledgeable, that does not necessarily mean that as a defense attorney your client will be acquitted. Right? We take the facts as we get them. I've never said to somebody, ooh, I don't like those facts. I don't think I can win that, so sorry, we can't help you. Um it was a soldering experience, the first loss, and there were things which the person I was representing didn't share, knew at the time, but didn't share with me. Like, really, this is how I'm finding out, and this is something you knew. Uh but I had done everything I could at that point to make sure that the person trusted me and that they understood I had their best interest at heart. So I was like, you know what? If they still decided to keep stuff from me, which I don't use to help them, um then you know that's something you can't take personally. And and the only way I was able to sleep was saying, look, given what I knew and what I could prepare for based on what he shared and what the government shared, I I did everything that I could. But not, it's it's it's not a fun feeling. And um but but but I was trying to keep a straight face and looking at him and thinking, wow, you you knew this, and um, but it's not my case, right? Ultimately, it's his name in the caption. Yeah, but yeah, it wasn't a fun feeling though. It wasn't a fun feeling. I was like, man, all that time. But I guess you know what? Like an Olympic athlete, they prepare for four years, and if you're a sprinter, it may come down to you know, depending on what race it is, 15 seconds of your life, but you prepare for a long time. So I just have to separate myself uh from from and not take it personally, but yeah, it wasn't it wasn't fun. I was like, man.

SPEAKER_00 42:52

Well, and and sometimes I don't know the best way to ask this question, so some but an acquittal isn't necessarily lack of an acquittal isn't necessarily a loss, right? Because sometimes people people have done what they've been accused of doing, and at that point, the best thing you can do is get them the best deal possible and make sure that their rights have not been violated. And so sometimes when you don't get an acquittal, you haven't lost. You made sure you have protected that person as best you can, right? Am I am I 100%?

SPEAKER_01 43:27

So look, depending on what the person is accused of doing, fortunately, in Michigan at the state level, we don't have death penalty, right? California, Texas, other states do. So there are offenses which in Michigan, if if you're convicted of, you could draw your last breath behind bars. Right. So someone who comes to you in that position, if you can somehow, either through pretrial practice or just negotiating and tenacity, somehow manage to get an offer for them where they nobody wants to serve any time, but if if you get them a deal for five years, life and five years, big difference. Absolutely. Uh so you know, it's especially for somebody who has you know young kids, right? Five years and 50 years, even is the difference between uh missing uh you know a graduation and then potentially coming home when your child is a grandparent, yeah. So yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so different folks, so let's say somebody is uh a commercial driver, right? They have a CDL. Um if if they find themselves in a situation where I negotiate something that saves their license, their ability to keep you know earning a living and Supporting their family, that's a win, even if we don't go to trial and we hear the words not guilty. But absolutely, yes. So so, and that is why I was saying as a defense attorney, you learn that a win isn't like a basketball game, right? Whoever scores the most points or who wins the most case. No, um, sometimes keeping a piece of evidence out in a trial, that that's a big win. Because uh if unfortunately you don't prevail, right, then that can't be considered under certain circumstances, even when it comes to the sentence, you know, aggravating stuff. So, oh yeah, yeah. Win not guilty verdict is not the only win.

SPEAKER_00 45:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 45:43

Yeah, right. Absolutely.

Travel As His Happy Place

SPEAKER_00 45:44

That's what a win is not a win and a loss is not a loss. It's all relative. That you have it. All right. Well, we've talked about a lot of things. Uh you've led a fascinating life. This has been a lot of fun. Um, I I have one last question I want to ask, but before I ask that question, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you wanted to talk about? Because I like to think I'm a good interviewer, but every once in a while I miss something.

The Message For The Future

SPEAKER_01 46:12

Um, uh I've never heard anyone say that uh criminal defense work is easy. I think it's fun. Certainly we're dealing with serious matters, and people ask me, how do you do it? How do you keep going? I learned um basic training, you know, you have to go in your mind to that happy place. Um and um I love to travel. And you know, thanks to Uncle Sam. Well, while it's it's of course being stationed somewhere and then just you know venturing out when you got a weekend pass or whatever the case is not quite like going on a vacation, right? But sparked that interest for travel, that that travel bug bit me. And that is um my happy place, right? That that is what rejuvenates me. I take as many trips as I can. I visited all 50 states, and uh Uncle Sam gave me a head start on many of them. Uh-huh. But um, no, just a lot of the things that made me a good soldier, I think make me a good attorney, and just even outside of the courtroom, um I still lean lean into very heavily today. But no, um, yeah, no, no, I I think we've we've covered everything that comes to mind for me. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:47

All right. So just one last question. You know, if someone's watching this or listening to this a hundred years from now, when probably neither one of us are still here, right? What message would you like to leave for people? What would you like them to take away from this conversation today?

SPEAKER_01 48:08

You know, I um so we live in interesting times right now. And um go back to that comment where the the drill sergeants told us, listen, we only see one color. While there may not be one color, I think um what my time and service helped me realize is is at the end of the day, we we are all people who want the same things, right? We all have families, people, somebody we care about. And um we have a mission. Of course, when you're in the army, you have a mission and you set aside those things, and it's unfortunate that today folks are unwilling to set aside like the things that are so divisive, um, and that we were trained not to focus on. So um, yeah, it it would be good if if if we could see each other just as the human beings we are. So, and and recognize that most of us all want the same things, right? To be happy, to love, and be loved. Um, and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

All right. Well, thanks for taking time out of your busy day to sit and talk there. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

Absolutely.