From Combat Zones To Clean Water (Mike Carie)

War stories usually end with the homecoming. Mike Carie’s don’t, because the hard part kept going after the uniform came off. We talk with Mike, a US Army veteran who grew up bouncing from place to place, joined through the delayed entry program, and learned fast what basic training and real-world readiness demand. From Fort Knox to Fort Bliss, he explains how the military can take a drifting teenager and build capability through pressure, repetition, and pure commitment. 

Then the pace spikes. Mike walks us through returning to active duty with a growing family and deploying to Iraq with a Medevac unit during the early years of the Iraq War. He describes the difference between a first tour that feels like organized chaos and a second tour where the danger is familiar but the cost at home is heavier. We get into the practical realities too: constant operations, infrastructure changing overnight, and the weird details you never forget. 

After service, Mike’s veteran transition story turns into public service of a different kind: clean drinking water. He shares how he broke into utility work, earned water treatment licenses, survived a massive chlorine gas incident at a facility, and learned the leadership shift from Army authority to union partnership. We also talk about marriage strain, mental health, protecting kids, and why he finally used his GI Bill later in life to push past the education ceiling. If you value honest conversations about military service, civilian careers, leadership, and resilience, subscribe, share this with a friend, and leave us a review. What part of Mike’s journey hits closest to home for you?

Transcript

Meet Mike And Early Childhood

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Three, two, one. Today is Monday, June 15th, 2026. We're talking with Mike Carey, who served in the United States Army. So good afternoon, Mike. Good afternoon. Thanks for coming and talking with us today. You're welcome. Thank you for having me. All right. Well, we're going to start with the hardest question uh to begin with, and that is when and where were you born?

SPEAKER_00 0:21

I was born in 1982, January 25th, in Pontiac, Michigan.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

1982, the year before I graduated high school.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Nice. Nice. So did you grow up in Pontiac? Uh no, I spent a little while there. Um I went to kindergarten there. Uh my dad was in the army, so we kind of bounced around. Um so we I was born there. We we we lived in um Kentucky, Tennessee. Uh he was uh uh like a tank site mechanic. That was his job when he first joined, and then he switched to a um aircraft mechanic, helicopter Hueys and those those older birds. Um we lived in Germany for quite a while, actually, um like mid-ish 80s until the 90s. Um when we moved around there and then back to the States and became a recruiter. So we moved back to Michigan in 90, maybe 92, uh 92 or 93, and we moved we stayed around Michigan after that.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Okay. What was it like for you to bounce around so much uh when you were younger?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Um, it was difficult. Uh making friends, like you don't grow roots, it it so there's pluses and minuses, but uh the plus is you become adaptable because you're constantly jumping around. The downside is is you don't really make long-term connections anywhere because you're constantly moving. So, you know, um, and you also have to hit reset every time you move. So, you know, back then, um, you know, uh school is more of a rite of passage. It was more bullying, you know. So you constantly had to prove yourself every time you showed up at a new school. Right. I see. Now, did you have brothers and sisters? I had a one brother, a younger brother.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

All right. So was he a lot younger than you, or were you close to the same age? Year and a half. Okay. Year and a half younger. So you guys could kind of take care of each other then while you were getting transitioned in?

SPEAKER_00 2:38

Yeah, yeah, we did. And you know, you you toughen up, you get used to it after a while, you learn kind of how to uh make things go fast when you you know you can drag out misery or you can make it go quick. Right.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

And misery loves company. Yeah. So out of all those places, where do you think your favorite place was?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Uh honestly, Germany. It's a beautiful country. We did a lot of things there. We uh, you know, I saw New Schwanstein Castle, which is a gorgeous castle, it's the Disney castle basically. Um and then just the uh nature of the landscape, the black forest, the you know, the people were very nice in Germany. Germans were kind people. Um it was a great experience. Now, how old were you when you were in Germany then? Um I'd have been it would have been like right after kindergarten, so maybe six-ish until about twelve.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Oh, okay. So quite a while then.

SPEAKER_00 3:40

Yeah, yeah, we stayed there for around six years.

SPEAKER_01 3:43

Long enough to learn the language?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

I did not learn the language a lot. I mean, we were in the military school with the other kids that spoke English, so it wasn't really uh, you know, we I didn't know a lot of German kids.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah. Now that was a long time to live in Germany. What was it like coming back to the United States? Because it seems like a lot of your formative years, you were in military schools in Germany. What was it like to come back to the United States after that?

SPEAKER_00 4:09

It was different because because you know he took a recruiter job, we were no longer on an installation, right? So there wasn't any you know other military kids. So now, you know, you're getting integrated into school with kids that don't quite understand the way you grew up and you don't understand the way they grew up. They've got roots, and you're like you know, the tumbleweed that just rolled into town. So it was it was a little different. And while he was a recruiter, he bounced around the state quite a bit. So I we went to a lot of different schools in the state of Michigan. So it was like a little, you know, we went to Chesoning for a little while, and then Perry schools, and then uh Corona Schools, AWASO. So it was so it was constant. That that period was very uh tumultuous. There was a lot of rapid movement, you know, a year or two at this school, and then you were in the new school. So how was that for your mom? Uh she because they kind of broke we were around the same area, she ended up getting a job as a teller in Owasso um at Centel Credit Union. It's not there anymore. I got absorbed by LaughQ, but um right right on Main Street there in Oasso. She started out as a teller there, and uh she would just drive from where you know we'd live in Perry or whatever. So she she was I think it was a little better for her than it, you know, for us. It wasn't terrible, it was just you know, making new friends constantly. Yeah, she got a little continuity, and you got to try and meet new people all the time. Yep. Yeah. Which it's good because again, you learn how to adapt. So there are some benefits to it. You you don't get stuck in a certain way, you get a lot more worldly knowledge, you get to know people, you know, it's not just that community and the way they live, it's every community you're in. You get to pick a little piece of that and take it with you. So there was a lot of positive uh experiences from that. It was, you know, it gave you a little bit more of a well-rounded education and a well-rounded uh knowledge of the way the world is and the way culture can be different just in fifty miles from another town. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:22

Well, and I would I would assume like if you stay in the same school district for you know K through twelve, uh any of those mistakes you made in your younger years tend to follow you.

SPEAKER_00 6:33

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:33

Uh it doesn't sound like that was the case for you.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Oh, if you get a nickname or something, you can shed it after a couple of years. Some of those other kids have been carrying the same nickname for 12 years, you know. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Yeah. Yep. Now, during this time, did you play sports? Did you have like some favorite subjects in school?

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Um, I for for most of most of the time I did really well in school. Um, so I was more of an academic student. Uh I wasn't really a big sports player, didn't play, I played baseball for a little while, but other than that, um not too many sports. It was mostly like spelling bees and and that stuff. So um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

That sounds nice. So uh when you uh where did you finally graduate from then?

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Ovidelsea. I ended up um settling in at Ovidelsea, and I spent my ninth through my ninth grade through my senior year. So that was the longest I want to say I'd ever been at any one school was that four-year period there. Um and it it was actually it's a small farm community. Uh I think the graduating class was like 80 of us, but um it was a very uh welcoming, I mean it was a very close-knit, welcoming town though. Um because maybe there were so few people, you know, everybody had to get along, or you weren't gonna have any friends. So um so I would say that was probably one of the better schools that I went to as far as it was really easy to adapt, make friends. You didn't there wasn't really a trial period, it just got right in there.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yeah. Well, by the time you really got to high school, right, you weren't the outsider anymore because you'd had a couple years at that school district, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:22

Um, no, my my eighth, so my eighth grade was in Owasso. Uh-huh. Seventh and sixth were in Corona. Oh, okay. So I j I just got to ninth grade, and but uh, you know, another good thing probably is the fact that, you know, back then um kids were coming in from a bunch of different schools. You had a middle school, but you had kids coming in from everywhere, you know, and uh school of choice was a thing still back then. So there were a lot, you weren't just the only new kid coming in, uh, but as a farm town, they just they tended to be a little bit calmer, or it was a little it wasn't a city school. City schools can be a little bit rougher to integrate in, but yeah, it was a it was a good school.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Yeah. And so you uh you you get through high school and uh you graduate. Um what happens after that?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

So I joined the army in the delayed entry program a year before I graduated. So I signed up. Um, you know, in in my high school years, I was a little bit more rambunctious, you know. I was a teenage boy, my parents had divorced, um, my mom had trouble reeling me in. Uh so I you know, I it wasn't a lot of trajectory for me in the right direct. We didn't have money for college, like

Choosing The Army For Direction

SPEAKER_00 9:48

um, I wasn't gonna take out student loans, and it wasn't like I was doing wonderful at that time uh in school. So, you know, uh my dad's like, you should join the military, it'll straighten you out, give you some direction, help you sow your wild oats, or or break you that habit. Um and you'll get college money if you want to go to school down the road. So uh so I so I signed up before before my last year of school, my junior, end of my junior year. But um I said and I graduated in 2000 and before the you know, before the month was out, July. By July, I was on a bus to Fort Knox, Kentucky. No time to get in trouble. So no, no time to no time to lose that contract that I just signed. Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

So so if your dad was a recruiter, did you have a pretty good idea of what you were getting into when you went out to basic training then?

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Uh, you know, as a recruiter, he was smart enough not to tell me what I was getting into in some ways. And in some ways, you know, I I was like, man, I I don't know. I guess how do you set how do you sell it? It was a wonderful experience, but when I went there, I thought, you know, we're gonna watch movies, we're gonna do this, we're gonna do that, you know. Um, and maybe that was some people's experiences, but I got sent to Fort Knox, and back then there were, you know, two basic trains left that were all male, and that

Basic Training Shock And Growth

SPEAKER_00 11:25

was Fort Knox and Fort Benning, Georgia.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

So they, you know, we got sent there, they shaved us right to the skin when we showed up. So yeah. Good old Kentucky guy with a cigarette in his mouth and a buzzer, buzzed, buzzed, you know, sat us in a chair, spun us, and sent us through.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Before he even knew what happened.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

Yeah, and it was you know, it was on like Donkey Kong. You know, wonderful experience. So I mean, I wouldn't, I don't think if you gave me a thousand chance chances to change my choice, I would still have made the same decision because I don't believe I would be where I am today had I not made that choice.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Right, right. Yeah, for for a lot of people at that time, there was a lot of other choices you could make, but yeah, the military kind of keep you out of trouble as well. So, how was basic training? I know it was a good experience, but um, you know, what were some of the challenges that you had there?

SPEAKER_00 12:18

So it was eye-opening for me. Like I said, I I played baseball and I, you know, I wasn't I was kind of a slacker in school, I didn't play a lot of sports, I wasn't a very physical kid. So the physical part of it actually was the biggest shock for me. You know, it's like, okay, you show up and and you, you know, it wasn't anything astronomical they were asking you to do, but for somebody who hadn't done much of anything, it was a lot. So I'm like, okay, I gotta run a mile to get into basic training, and I gotta make sure that I, you know, at least meet the time they want, or uh, you know, or or this is gonna drag out for a long time, and I just want to get through this.

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

So uh so there was a little bit of a wake-up call with that, but you adapt pretty quick. I mean, they're good at their job when it comes to that. They they'll uh you know, they'll forge you pretty fast. So um, but I would say, yeah, it was the physical demand that that was a cold splash in the face for me. I mean, I knew there was physical demand, I just didn't realize the level they were gonna expect. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:23

Did you find that you were able to do things maybe you didn't think you could do?

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Yeah, they I mean, you know, you you you start out and then like me, I I I did my first mile run, and it's probably the first time I ever actually ran a full mile, um, you know, just to get into the training unit. And at the end of it, my I mean, my whole I thought my whole body was gonna start cramping. I'm like, I was just kind of doing a weird chicken walk, you know. And by the end of basic training, you know, you're running multi two or three, four miles, but you can run two miles. And again, you know, you're not you're saying bolt, but 14 minutes, 15 minutes for a couple of miles from a kid who could barely make it through the first mile in you know, a nine-week period's it's pretty amazing uh you know where you end up in such a short period of time. So, yeah, there was a lot. There was a lot that we did that I, you know, and learn just just the things you learn, you know. You go in there and you know, we go through school and we learn the standard system. I didn't know anything about the metric system, and then here comes the military, and they're like, look, it's easier. Watch, do this, do that. Um, you learn how to read a map, you learn how to do all these different things, um, you know, U.S. weapons, different uh tactics, basic infantry tactics, and and you know, and it's all balled together in this course that's you know shorter than most college classes.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

And you come out of that thing knowing more than you might know after you take a whole uh associates program, you know, after going to college. Um it's just amazing what what they can do.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Yeah, yeah. I mean, they've got it down to a science after what, 200 years.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Oh, yeah, they've got it figured out for three years or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yeah, yeah. Um, it's true though. I mean, that's an experience a lot of people have is you learn so much in such a short period of time. But you're not taking like underwater basket weaving, you're actually learning your skills. Yeah. So uh now at graduation, did your family come down for your graduation?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Yeah, my mom, my dad, my brother came down. Um I had we got to basic training in July. It was summer surge, so there was a few weeks before any training units opened up. So we just kind of um sat in reception in a big group, you know, stacked to the ceiling. And uh so I didn't end up getting into a training unit and graduating until we graduated, I graduated in October, arguing it did. Um and they came down, so it was a little cooler out, you know. It wasn't as you know, Kentucky can be a little bit warm in the summer. Oh yeah. Yeah, that's true. I didn't, I honestly didn't know that Kentucky had that many hills until I went to basic training there. I'm like, wow, this is a rocky, hilly region, you know. Yeah, ran up every one of them, right? Oh yeah, yeah, or marched up them, you know, and they nickname everything there, and it's not a good name. So it's like, which one are you gonna do today? Oh, we're doing misery today. But uh yeah, they came down, my mom came down, my brother, and we had family day, and I finally got to like leave the little uh bubble I was living under and you know, get some McDonald's for the first time in a while and eat what I wanted to eat instead of what I was, you know, what was put in front of me. Uh so you know it was a you learn to appreciate some creature comforts after that, you know.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Yeah, you uh yeah, you have it you have an appreciation for things you didn't appreciate before.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Oh yeah, yeah, things you didn't have that had zero value become some of the most valuable things. Sleep. All those things.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

So you uh graduate from basic training and then uh you go to did you go to AIT right there at Knox, then?

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Uh-uh. I went to so I went to uh Fort Jackson. I was a 63 Bravo, which at that time was a light vehicle mechanic.

SPEAKER_01 17:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

So I shipped to Fort Jackson and I did AIT there. Um came home for Christmas Exodus. We were there through Christmas, and then uh once I finished AIT, which that AIT, that was it's you know, the the level of difficulty kind of draw they get you through the hard stuff right off the bat,

AIT And Orders To Fort Bliss

SPEAKER_00 17:48

and then you know, you've you've gone through all that. So now when you're doing that and combining it with learning a job, it's it's just not you know, you're toughened up by then, I guess is the best way to put it. So the the AIT it wasn't uh it was sharpening some skills and then learning uh the specific job that I was gonna do. So that it was fun. We learned how to work on trucks in the field. You know, our field problem was getting trucks in the field, working on them, you know, uh checking a truck for booby traps that was left behind by somebody and we're supposed to recover it, different things like that. So it was a slightly different experience than basic training. Right. Um, and then you know, we all got our orders for our first unit, and mine was uh um Patriot Battery in in El Paso at Fort Bliss, El Paso, Texas.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah, Fort Bliss, I feel like that's misnamed.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

It is it's a huge, I think it's actually the largest by size military installation because of the training, you know, the size of the training grounds. Right. Um, but yeah, it's it is I I don't you make your wish list out, and they're like, where do you want to go? And then they send you exactly where you didn't ask for it. You can make a list, and I think they do it on purpose. They're like, they want to know where you want to go, so they send you elsewhere. So I you know I picked all green places and I ended up in the desert. That's why they call it a wish list, right? You wish you were going there. Yep, pretty much. Yeah. So how long were you at Bliss? I was at Bliss for a couple years. Um, I was in Charlie 1 1 Air Defense Artillery, which we were a Patriot battery attached to 3rd Armored Corps, so we were their um air defense system. So uh third I learned a lot actually about that. Um how Patriots work and all that. You think that they just park them somewhere and they don't, they actually jump a lot. Oh and uh it's it's very taxing, it's very demanding because like an armored corps a lot more mobile. So you when you're following them and you're their safety net and you're packing up missile launchers, you know, maybe every 10, 12 hours and moving them behind them so you can stay within range. Um it's it's the op tempo is really high, actually. Um, and a lot of NBC stuff because you know what you're shooting down, you know, basically just hits a scud or something, and whatever's in that scud still kind of comes out, it just doesn't hit and impact people. So um we learned a lot about that stuff. Uh we did a lot of field problems um and jumping sites, and there were actually a lot of competitions. Uh Garner's Cup was one competition against all the other air defenses in the world because we trained, at least we did. I think they actually moved them around, but back then all the air defense was pretty much centered at Fort Bliss, and we trained, you know, German air defense and all these other countries, air defense units plus the Marines would come there and train. Um so we had a competition against all of them to see who you know was the best, the best group. And we actually took set our battery took second place. So wow. It's quite an accomplishment, man. That's a lot of work too. It was. It was that was the most probably intense grueling work in other than deployment, I would say, in the military that I ever did. You know, you're in a mop suit in a hundred and some degree weather, uh, you know, and if you're on the uh RSOP team, which I was on the R SOP team, you're re-con in the site ahead of the unit in gear, setting things up. And it yeah, it's it's just it really teaches you how what hard work is.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

You know, I think I think back on some of those things, and I'm like, how'd I survive this? Yeah, it's a hundred and twenty degrees out here. How did I even do this? Because now I don't like to go out in shorts and a t shirt when it's 90 degrees, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, me, I'm the same way. I'm like, where's the air conditioning at exactly?

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yeah, I think it changes us a little bit. So you Uh spent two years at Bliss, and then where did you go from there?

SPEAKER_00 22:02

So I I I finished my first enlistment and uh I I actually joined the the guard. I got out, I spent a little bit of time in the guard. Um I had gotten out in what would it have been 2002? Um I was gonna go to school. I was gonna, you know, I joined the guard, I was gonna use the guard and my and I had back then we had the you know good old army college fund. It was before the post-9-11 GI Bill, you signed

Guard Time And Back To Active

SPEAKER_00 22:35

up for that Army College fund money, and so I had that, and I was gonna go to school. Um obviously September 11th had already happened. We were an air defense unit, not much demand for them in Afghanistan, so they didn't deploy us to Afghanistan. At first, that unit actually got deployed to White Sands Missile Range to guard something out there, and I to this day I don't know what it was, but you know, they had us at a big perimeter around it. Um I ended up in actually in the 1775th MP company out of Pontiac.

SPEAKER_02 23:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

Um, so I was in that unit for about a year. Um, and my girlfriend got pregnant and I needed medical insurance, and so I went back on active duty. I said, All right, I want to go back on active duty. I need medical insurance. I'm about to have this kid.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Uh, you know, at that point in time, the unit that unit wasn't deployed, so we were just kind of sitting there. Um, so they said, All right, yeah, we'll throw you back in, and you know, needs of the army basically. If you want to go back on active duty, you're spinning the wheel and we're gonna send you wherever. Well, they sent me to Fort Lewis, Washington. So I went to Fort Lewis and I got put in the um 54th Medical Company, which was a uh Medevac unit. Uh-huh. Uh and at the time, between the guard, active army, and everybody, there were 12 Medevac companies total. So with Iraq and Afghanistan kicking off, Iraq's kicking off because it's 2003 and Afghanistan's already a couple years into it. Um, a lot of the Medevac units were constantly getting deployed. So I got there and to Iraq we go in 2003. Wow. Um, so I yeah, I get my my new kid, my my new new wife. All right, I'll see you guys when I see you again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:36

Now, did she move out to Fort Lewis with you then?

SPEAKER_00 24:40

She came out there and then went right back. I I sent her right back. I was like, you stay with your mom, you're gonna have support, you're gonna have family. Um, not that they don't have they have wonderful support groups in the military, maybe new to a unit and the post and not really knowing much. I'm like, you're probably gonna do better if you just go home. You got a new kid, you don't even have a friend here at this point. Right. So I sent her home and uh and I went to Iraq and we ended up um in our own little compound on uh Camp Anaconda.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:18

We had this was 2003, so Camp Anaconda evolved over the years. I got to see it again nine months after we got back the first time because they sent us right back. Oh my gosh. We left we left Iraq with orders to come back because they didn't have enough Medevac companies. Yeah um we ended up actually absorbing another unit's bird, so we went from a company-sized unit to a battalion-sized company. It was really weird. We had like 26 birds. But um the first time we were there, it was just Marines and Army, and it was real uh drunny. We we uh we had uh our own compounds in the compound. Yeah, a lot airbase didn't really have a perimeter back then.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

It wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't really a fob at that point, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

It wasn't it was no, it was just kind of we took it over and it was ours. So everybody kind of had their own little compound, you know. That special forces guys had their little space. We had our space with the helicopters and sandbags and Hesco baskets, and the Marines had theirs, and we pulled guard off those MiG bunkers you see out there. Yeah, we climb up that, and that that was uh uh scary. Like, I'm not a big heights guy. I mean, I can handle it, but uh climbing to one of those sandstone bunkers to pull guard duty and body armor is an experience in itself.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

Yeah, you don't want to repeat it, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:40

No, no, no, not at like two in the morning, yeah, it's dark, you got nods, because uh the the camp lighting even was terrible. I mean, I don't know what the Iraqis were doing for a base there, but they had no, it was not uh wouldn't meet American standards by any any measure. It was just basically somebody built some adobe bunkers and and put some huts out in the middle of somewhere, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:05

Wow, man. So how long were you in how long were you there this the first time?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

So the first tour I did, I was about six months. We came back in the spring of oh four. We went to well, we spent some time at K and B. After the first tour or whatever, you know, um, because of combat ops and stuff, they were a little worried we were gonna come home and you know act crazy. Right. So there was a a decompression period at KB. We stayed at K Kuwaiti Naval Base for uh at least 30 days. It might have been longer. It's kind of you know, I slept most of the time because it was like, all right, I don't have to do anything you could finally sleep, really. Yeah, it's like it's quieter here, I'm gonna sleep. Uh so I spent most of that time honestly sleeping. Uh and you know, we clean weapons, we had to clean the trucks because at that point, we you know, before they realized that we were there to stay for a while, we were sending the same equipment back and forth, and the standards for cleaning that stuff is crazy. You know, they don't want anything on it. No sand, not even a grain. No, yeah. I mean, it was 20 hours into a Hum V, and you're like, really, can you please just let me go?

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Yeah, I just want to go home. Were you guys pretty busy there on that first tour?

SPEAKER_00 28:24

Yeah, we were, I mean, it was constant. You had uh before you had real good established supply lines through the country and stuff like that, you were convoying to pick things up. Oh, wow. Yeah. Um, so you know, if we needed something out of the norm or, you know, a lot of things, sometimes parts, especially for the birds, you'd have to go to Kuwait, pick them up, and then come back. Um, and then yeah, that the operations for for the Medevac unit itself was super busy. We ended up with teams spread out across the country. So our main hub was at Anaconda, and then there were small teams with like three birds and like Kirkkuk and you know different places like that. Um Bakuba. They they just peppered them around the the country, yeah. Um but yeah, yeah. The whole time, both tours, it was it was a pretty busy, busy deployment. I mean, the army was pretty stretched then. I had gone there and I had, you know, it was my first tour, and there's a guy that had been into Afghanistan twice already. It's his third tour, and I'm like, it's 2003, man. Like, yeah, we haven't been doing this that long. I'm like, you're gonna get a lot of stripes there.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Yeah, well, there I mean, I know guys that went over for a 12-month tour and were on the runway to come home and got called back for another six months, and they had packed up and they were headed home. That would be disappointing. Yeah, it was a it was a crazy that was a crazy time to to be there. So, I mean, for the nine months that you were back home, what did you do? What was that like?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

So, because we brought our equipment back.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

There's all kinds of words going through my head right now. This is what I don't understand. I don't know what they're blowing, but they will be, they they do this for like at my house. Just justify the price. I'm like, I'm like, you guys even mow that long, but you're out here blowing stuff up that doesn't even exist.

Coming Home Then Deploying Again

SPEAKER_01 30:35

One second. My rant might be over. Oh good, he broke it. Oh, I was gonna get a big leaf blower out. All right, I just want to look at the time on this because I'm I'm need to go back and edit this part out. So we're at about 30 minutes. Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_00 30:53

So we were talking about uh you came back for nine months, but so yeah, so we we we uh brought everything back and like the birds had to be shrink wrapped, you know, everything was going by ship across the water. And because, you know, when you're deployed and the heat there just destroys things, uh, you know, basically you beat all that equipment to death. So that nine months was just getting ready to come back. You know, we got our stuff back, took a minute for it to get back because you know it hit the east coast, railhead come across to Washington, which is all the way on the other side. Uh, we actually got stuff that was tagged on the railhead, you know, by homeless people or whatever. Um some some of the trucks had been lived in, and you could tell, like the Humvees and stuff. Homeless people were chilling in them. Um, but yeah, we ended up having to rebuild all the trucks and all the, you know, get the generators back up to snuff and stuff because most of the power you had over there, and especially like on the little bases and fobs, it was all army generators that you had you know run wires around the camp for. Um, so we spent most of that time getting ready to put it all back on a boat and send it back over.

SPEAKER_01 32:11

Yeah, it was like why bother you could have just refitted while you were over there, just kept left it there, which is what they did to the unit that replaced us, and then we replaced them again.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

So we we uh um I think it was actually a guard metavac unit that replaced us. They left their birds and everything. That's how we ended up with twice as many birds. We brought our birds, they left theirs. The army finally was like, okay, we're spending a lot of money just shuffling the same stuff back and forth, leave it all there, leave the trucks, leave the birds. So we had twice as many trucks, twice as many birds, but it was all there, um, and just ready to go. So you're now you're just moving people, right? Right. Um, so we got our our stuff ready, we sent it over, they uh, you know, we sent it by ship again. We uh got to Kuwait, and instead of convoying a lot of this stuff across the country, I mean the birds they could just hop and fly, but um the trucks we started they started loading those on like C-17s and stuff like that, C-5s. Um, so we would just load them up, chain them down, launch them to uh Ballad, because that airbase had a lot of runways, and actually it what the most amazing part of all of it was what the US military did with that compound in the nine months that we weren't there. Yeah, because we came back and it was a city, it was a whole different world. You had T barriers, these cement T barriers up, you had Air Force jets, you had um a camp, you had like trailer towns on there that people were staying in, and it went from being a tent city to being an actual city, basically. You had a perimeter fence with towers and guards. Um, just insane the amount of infrastructure that was put together in a nine-month period.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Yeah, almost like building a whole city within nine months.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

It was. I I yeah, I never seen anything like it in my life. You know what Michigan Road crews learn a lot from this.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yeah, don't say that out loud. But no, you're you're right. I never saw an orange barrel over there the whole time I was there. They just built stuff.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Yeah, it just got done. Yeah, they knocked it out.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Well, uh, you know, I want I I'd be remiss if I didn't ask like, how did your how did your wife take this? Because that's a pretty quick turnaround and now you're gone again.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

Yeah, not too well. I mean, you gotta do what you gotta do. So um she just we, you know, we had nine months of whatever time we could get. Uh uh I ended up sending her back home again. That's what she wanted to do. It worked out well for her the first time, and um, you know, she ended up pregnant before she went home with our second daughter, Maya. So she was pregnant, had a young kid, and here comes another one on the way. So she went home. Uh Maya was doing February. We uh we yeah, we deployed, we left December 23rd. They sent us December why they chose to have two units gone at Christmas at the same time. Wow, I'll never ever understand the decision they made, but they sent us out there December 20. We flew out on December 23rd. Um, so it's just insult to injury there. That really was, and to this day, I'm like, whoever made that decision was not either not thinking or they just were not friendly. I don't know which one it was.

SPEAKER_01 35:48

They either didn't think or didn't care.

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or maybe they just hit a button and that's what came out.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

So off you go again.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Off, yeah. So we were gone, we leave. Um, and shuffling people, they were doing uh a lot of civilian flights because you I mean they had a contract for like Delta and all that, so you would fly Delta to Kuwait and uh you know, and a big whatever triple seven or whatever they were using, and then from Kuwait it was military from there, but yeah, you know, it was kind of a weird you're you're on a civilian flight with you know M16s and all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 36:28

Here's what I didn't get, right? So I I had my M16, I had my M9, right? I had all my but they still took my damn fingernail clippers and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 36:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:38

Like, okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:39

Yeah, that's like you got you know a hundred people on this flight who can blow a hole in the side of this plane, but you're worried about some nail clippers.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yep, I guess rules is rules, so we'll just let them super, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

It was just it was a weird time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

So talk me through that second deployment. How did it compare to the first one?

SPEAKER_00 36:57

It was um I'd say it was more structured, it was less chaotic. It was more, I mean, it was structured the first time, but just organized chaos, I guess is the best way to put it. The first tour was just um, and a lot of new things too, like you know, uh experiences that even training can't really prepare you for. It familiarizes you with what you might see, but

Second Iraq Tour And Money Chaos

SPEAKER_00 37:28

there's just nothing like the real thing. Yeah, true. There really isn't. True, you know, and it's hard to sometimes it's hard to articulate, but it's a feeling, you know. It's like the first time you, you know, you come under indirect fire and it's real, or direct fire and it's real, it's not the same as crawling under a barbed wire fence and training with machine guns shooting where you're at. Exactly. So um, you know, the first time it was shock for me, you know. I I was, you know, when things happen, you know, you're just like, whoa, you know, the the like everybody's crawling on the ground and things are exploding for real, not just making noise. The second time, you know, once you're used to it, I don't know a better way to put it, but once you're conditioned for it, so the second time you go, you're a little more hardened. It gets to the point where it's like you're playing cards and you're like, eh, that's not that close. Let's finish the hand, you know. Uh but the yeah, the organization too for everything, you know, the the build-up was there. The uh there were some amenities. Like we had uh, you know, AFEs is ready to make money no matter where you are in the world.

SPEAKER_01 38:44

That's right, they'll put up a tent if they have to.

unknown 38:46

They will.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

They are the the mobile salesmen of the planet. They are and they had their own little you could buy cigarettes, you could they had their own shacks or whatever. They had buildings. If they could find a hole that nobody was using, they were selling something out of it.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Now, did you guys have the pogs for money? Because atheists didn't take cash when we were there.

SPEAKER_00 39:05

We so we had a um when they finally got everything established, they actually had um what do they call the it was like a finance facility, and you could go in and do like a cash advance. Yeah, the old paper style. I mean, it was not a great method, or you could write checks, which after that experience, I you know, it was the only time in my entire life I wrote checks. Uh-huh. And if you saved every one of them for a good six months, and I didn't know how much money was in the account. I mean, this is before iPhones. Uh there were cell phones, but I didn't have one, and the ones you had were nothing like what you see today. Right. Um, so I didn't know how much money I had. I just I told my wife, I'm like, just leave $200 a paycheck in there, and we'll have money by the time this is done. We'll save some money because that's I'll never need that much. But you know, I I smoked at the time, so I was like, I'm I'm gonna buy cigarettes and maybe a bag of beef jerky or whatever they got on on the counter. But um, so I wrote these checks and she saw this money piling up and she spent it. And those things bounced like rubber balls when they finally came bad experience, bad experience, especially when you're finding this out with a you know, a phone card on a telephone, you know, because unless you could get your hands on a sat phone, you know, you were calling you were waiting in line with everybody else in this little phone tent or whatever they had set up, and you know, you weren't you you couldn't spend forever there hashing things out. It was like 30 minutes of let's argue about this and then we're done. So yeah, weird experience. But yeah, they had a a finance section, and you could you could do a cash advance on your check that and and get actual dollars and then trade them to the Iraqis for DRs. Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

So how long were you there the second time then? We were there till November, I thought it was a year deployment. We were there for the 12 months or whatever, just shy. I don't know. The army had a weird rule where they were they didn't want you on the ground for more than a year in country.

SPEAKER_01 41:24

Had to do with money. Yeah, because there was two very important dates, right? There was the your bog date, your boots on ground date, because that started the clock. Yeah, and then they had to get you out of there within 12 months of that. Otherwise, there were some pay issues.

SPEAKER_00 41:39

Oh, yeah, yeah. They you got you got some kickers from them. Exactly. Throw your way. So they made sure they got you out of there just before the struck midnight. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

So you you leave there again, you come back home, you come back to Fort Lewis then.

SPEAKER_00 41:55

Yeah, we come back to Fort Lewis, um, and we left everything there, uh the birds and all that stuff. Uh, so we get back to Fort Lewis, and uh the army is transitioning at this point from a Cold War, you know, we've got these giant cores and divisions and all these things. They they started move doing their modular army, they wanted to pack everybody together and you know, have these army

Leaving The Army With A Family

SPEAKER_00 42:23

frisbees they could throw wherever they wanted. So our unit disbanded. Uh that you know, we got orders to disband, and they were reforming at Fort Bragg. They were gonna go over there. Um 82nd Airborne, I think, was who was taking them on. Uh, and I my enlistment was up at this point. Well, almost. I I was you know uh March, May 2006, right in that range. Could have been May, May of 2006, um was my ETS. So I helped them kind of turn things in and clean things up and package things to ship, uh, throw them in connects as whatever, and uh paperwork stuff to disband. It was that that period was actually a lot calmer than between the first and the next appointment. Oh, yeah. It was, you know, it was actually pretty relaxed and chill. Um a lot of uh getting stuff done and then going home at noon when there wasn't anything left. So it was a nice calm period, you know, with that with that going on. And then I yeah, I got out in uh 2006. I had a few leave days, so it was before May that uh I left.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

But you came back to Michigan. Went on terminal leave, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:52

Yep, I come back to Michigan uh with a slight plan. But not much of a plan. Just just I'm heading north for the winter.

SPEAKER_01 44:06

Yeah, time to take a little break.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Yeah, yeah. I was like, well, you what what got me is uh there was no end in sight, and it was obvious at that point, you know, after back-to-back deployments and you know, talking to guys that you know in 2005, you know, this is their fifth tour, and yeah, you know, there are people starting to break at this point already. Um, and some that aren't, some that are, you know, some people thrive in that environment, you know. And the biggest thing for me, I could have done it, I don't know if I could say forever, but for a long time I could have done it. Um, but not with a family. Yeah. That's really where the line drew. Yeah, I had kids. Every time I showed up, they were different children. Um, watching them grow up in photographs and in letters, you know, I just felt like I was asking too much of them. Yeah. Yeah, it's hard on a family. So uh that's what, you know, I'm like, I had kids for a reason. I did what I needed to do to take care of them. I needed to do something different to take care of them. Yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:14

So how was it coming? I mean, with back-to-back deployments, what was it like coming home and being done? Like, not only did you finish up your deployment, but then you got out. So that's and then you came back to Michigan. Yeah. What was that whole thing like for you?

SPEAKER_00 45:29

So honestly, it it was I don't know. I don't know how to explain it. It was it was so fast, and I think maybe because um my children, you know, my children were my focus. I wanted to make sure, you know, I'm like, I can't just get out of the army and then you know, we're living in a car eating squirrel pie. Like, I gotta do something else. I gotta get I gotta keep moving forward. So I kind of just kept this forward mobility mentality. And uh, I mean, my marriage didn't do well. I, you know, I I that marriage didn't last, but you know, because now we're living together, that's a whole different ball of wax. But um, and and we had gotten together, we never really had time together. So, you know, after all these years, two different people, but um I got back here and I was I was gonna do an apprenticeship. I was dead set. I'm gonna do an apprenticeship. Whether it's electric, I don't know what it's gonna be, but I'm gonna do one because you know it pays decently. Uh, you know, the economy was kind of sliding at that point. You know, housing market crash wasn't too far into the future, so it was starting to lose its grip, but that just seemed like a sure bet, you know, like like the military is a sure bet. If you if you want a stable financial future, the army will take care of you, the navy will take care of you, whoever, as long as you take care of them. Great. Um, and that's the same thing I wanted without the not seeing the kids part.

SPEAKER_01 47:15

Yeah. So it's kind of important.

SPEAKER_00 47:18

Yeah, yeah. So I I uh that was my focus. So I actually called the Department of Labor for the state. Somebody, I talked to somebody with the state, and I want to say they were from the Department of Labor. It's been 20 years now, but um, and I was just like, hey, do you guys got any apprenticeships? Like, how do I go about this? I don't even know. And they're like, Well, we'll give you a list of places that does them, you know, you you're not gonna deal with us, we don't really do that. Talk to these places, right? And the Board of Water and Light was one of the people on the list. So I had made some phone calls and I had called the Board of Water and Light, and they were like,

Landing A Utility Career In Michigan

SPEAKER_00 47:55

Well, you can't just walk in here and we say, Yes, you've got to go through a process. We have a hiring process, do this, do that, watch the website. Um, and when something comes up, apply. And I was like, Oh, okay, you know, and so in the meantime, I'm like, well, and my brother or brother-in-law had worked at um uh Comcast Cable. And he's like, it pays pretty well, you can go to school, start the classes for whatever apprenticeship, you know. And I at the time I was kind of focused on electrical. I'm gonna do an electrical apprenticeship. And he's like, well, take the schooling for that and just work here and you can still feed your kids and all that. I'm like, okay, so I applied there, and then the board had a plant janitor for the water plant open up, and I was like, that's decent money, you know, it was like $14 an hour at the time, which I thought was really, really great. Yeah. Um, so I applied for it. And I went through an interview process with Comcast, did all this stuff, nothing from the board. I'm like, so after maybe six to eight weeks, I called the board and I was like, hey, I need to know, should I move on with my life? You know what's going on? Oh, yeah, we were gonna call you for an interview. And I'm like, okay, well, that's good news. I not what I thought I was gonna hear. Right, right. When are you gonna call me? That's that was pretty much it. I'm like, when can we do this?

SPEAKER_01 49:23

Yeah. So you go for your interview. Apparently, you got the job, I'm assuming.

SPEAKER_00 49:27

Yes, I did. So I went in and and I uh, you know, and I went through taps or whatever it was through the military, you know, how to interview and how to write a resume class, which actually was very helpful. Um so I did what they said to do, and I took, you know, I built a resume, and then I built uh a binder with all the supporting documents that supported what I put in the resume, like, hey, this is the certificates I've gotten, this is whatever. Um, and then I went in and interviewed um and I chose the first interview. They're like, well, you can pick. We haven't we haven't called anybody yet, and I'm like, Oh, I'll go first. Let me just get it out of the way. Right. Either I'll set the pace or they'll trip over the bar on their way. Right, right. Either way, you're done. I'm telling you, either way, I'm through it, and you know, and we'll do this. So I went in and I did it, and uh again, waited. You know, I'm like, okay, I must have done terrible, you know, it's like six, seven, eight weeks. Call them. Hey, um, you know, should I move on with my life again? Oh no, we were gonna offer you the job, and I'm like, okay. They're like, yeah, we it's a conditional offer. You go take your drug test at Sparrow. Um and if you pass and you pass the physical, you're hired. I'm like, okay, well, what time can I go? Like, I'm on my way.

SPEAKER_01 50:59

Make sure the paperwork gets there before I do.

SPEAKER_00 51:03

Yep. So yeah. So I did that.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

Uh-huh. And so this is what 2006?

SPEAKER_00 51:10

Yep, this would be August of 2006, was my hire, and that that's when I finally got through the interviews. Finally called a call. So you said I got out in May. I started this process right after that. Probably applied for that job in early June, and it's August, and they're like, okay, well, you can start the middle of August, you know. So we're a couple months into this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

I never understood the whole uh reasoning behind taking so long to do anything, but that's kind of typical, especially utility business for whatever reason. Yeah, yeah, I know. They're good jobs though, so I'm not gonna complain.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

No, I wasn't I didn't say a cross word. I was just like, well, you know, I work, so I'm here. Yeah. So how long did you do the janitorial work then? So I got in, I started the janitorial job, and they're like, it's kind of a feeder job, you know, you're gonna do this, but really you're gonna be an operator, you're gonna be a water operator. Uh-huh. I'm like, oh, okay. And the turnover rate in an operations job is actually kind of high, even though it pays well. Again, it's one of those sacrificial type jobs where you know you're working nights and weekends and holidays, and your family's enjoying Christmas, and you may come home in the morning and watch them open gifts if you're lucky, but it pays well. And for me, 12 hours at home was better than no hours at home. So I looked at the I looked at it like this is some pretty green grass for me. I was gone for a year. I'll take a couple hours, you know. It's all perspective.

SPEAKER_01 52:46

It really is. It's all perspective, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

So for me, it was you know, it was a dream landing, you know, it was good money. I got to be home. Yeah. I got to watch him every day. I could see what was happening next. I could be involved in something, which is better than nothing. Right. Um, so yeah, I did I did that. And um, I, you know, I got you had to get licensed. So I went and took the state test and got licensed and um parked on nights for a while. Uh there was an incident at the South Side plant. Uh, an operator made a mistake and compromised the facility. And uh yeah, he made a couple tons of chlorine gas and it just basically wrecked the whole plant. Everything ran, but it wasn't gonna like we didn't shut it off. It we had to rebuild, it was $23 million to rebuild whatever. That's a big mistake. That was a big mistake. But so me and two other guys, Rick and Steve, you know,

Chlorine Gas Mistake And Plant Rebuild

SPEAKER_00 53:52

they trusted us, so they parked us out there for the whole pretty much the whole project. They're like, look, we know if you anyone's gonna keep the place running, you three guys are gonna keep the wheels on, and we need the wheels to stay on this facility until we get new wheels.

SPEAKER_01 54:05

So you so basically you're trying to operate at the same time they're trying to renovate.

SPEAKER_00 54:10

Oh, yeah, we operate, we ran it, and so what would end up happening is they would build a wooden panel with uh all the controls on it, uh-huh. And we ran dual controls, like these controls uh were set up to be run, and these old ones that were still running, and the old switch panel was a switchboard with uh you know the pull-out alarms. I mean, it was an old switchboard, and we were switching to all this new tech because you know now tech in 2012 tech's come a long way from the 70s tech that was in that building. Yeah, definitely. Uh so we had a switchboard with a bunch of Yokogawa controllers and all these different controllers on it, and they would do cutovers of equipment piece by piece, and we'd run off of that panel, and then they'd tear that whole old panel out, build a new metal one, and then slowly move the equipment from that. But it was a big big deal. It was hard to run the facility and fix it at the same time. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

A lot easier to just shut it down and rebuild it and come back, but you couldn't have couldn't do that.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

No, no, because it's a water facility and it supplied, you know, the south side of Lansing. Oh, yeah. We had to keep it going so that they could maintain service.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

So people want their showers.

SPEAKER_00 55:21

Oh, yes. And I mean, like, you know, even though we got a river, the access to good drinking water is not, you know, it's not that easy for when you got this many residents. So that's true. So how long was that project? That total time lasted, I would say two years-ish.

SPEAKER_02 55:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 55:39

Um, from start to where they were kind of sh done. Um, and they did everything in the building, um, from equipment, controllers, uh, chemical mixing machines. I mean, they replaced pretty much all the uh switch gear up in the switch gear room, all the electrical. It looked like someone had taken the building, dropped it in the ocean for a hundred years, and then pulled it back out and set it on the land. And I mean, it aged that facility so fast. It was it was a crazy thing. You could go in there with uh like a penny, a shiny penny, and just set it on the counter, and it wouldn't take it five minutes, and it looked like the oldest penny you had in your pocket.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

Sounds like a super healthy atmosphere to be working in.

SPEAKER_00 56:22

You know, I mean, for the for the for the um water and the treatment process, it wasn't like a hazard to the public. Right. Because chlorine gas is chlorine, we feed chlorine and water, and the water isn't gonna pull the gas out of the air, it's gonna react with the metals and things like that. But for a human being, you know, we were in Tyvek suits and SCBAs, and we were in there doing until it cleared out enough to where you could go in there without gear on, we were in there in full gear. This whole thing just sounds like a nightmare scenario. It was I I thought I was back in the military, and I'm like, well, here I am in my mopped suit. Pretty much. I'm like, the only difference is I got a bottle on my back.

SPEAKER_01 57:05

Like I can really breathe. Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 57:09

So uh after that project, then what did you uh so I came back to um to die water, which is the main water plant there by uh the lug nuts stadium, yeah. The one you visited the other day. Um and I operated there for a little while. I started, you know, for the longest time I you you have to have a F4 to operate. And for the longest time I was content with that, and then uh I decided I'm I'm I'm gonna start studying and I'm gonna take a higher license. And I so I took the F2 as I well, I you know, and I operated and I did that for a while. Um pretty status quo, just operating the plant. Um and then I got uh, you know, they were having trouble with shift supervisors, they couldn't keep them. Uh they either quit because they just couldn't handle, you know, the rough and tumble industry guys, or they just weren't functioning very well and they left it uh involuntarily.

unknown 58:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:16

Uh so I got recruited into manage management, please take the shift supervisor job. And I pulled the old Van Halen trick because it's a you know, I was in the union, I'm like, I'm in the union, why would I leave the union? You know, yeah. We're pretty

Union To Management Leadership Lessons

SPEAKER_00 58:28

we're protected, we got it made here. Uh uh, I hate to say it, you know, I'll do my job, but I don't want to leave the umbrella I'm under. And they're like, well, and I, you know, and I didn't ask for a lot, but I was like, I want a bowl of blue MMs. I did the old Van Halen contract trick. Right. Think of that, they wouldn't mean it, you know. I'm like, oh, they'll never be able to do that. And it wasn't even that much, but in that world it is, you know. And they came back with a bowl of blue MMs, and I was like, Well, I gotta put my money where my mouth is. I made a deal with the devil, now I gotta make it, I gotta make good on that. So I signed, I wanted to help too. I mean, I'm I'm being a little funny, but we were in a place where you know they needed better leadership than we had had in the past. The employees needed more stability than we had had because of the turnover rate of bad uh supervisors, and you know, even management kind of needed that. Everybody kind of needed an anchor, more of an anchor than we had had in the past. So I said, all right, I'll do it. I'll I'll go in and you know, I'll get beat with the rubber chicken next. So I signed up. Nice way to think of it.

SPEAKER_01 59:42

So I, you know, I think the interesting thing though is that uh, you know, I think it kind of like the military, right? Some of the better leaders were the guys who were enlisted for a while and then became officers, right? Yeah, green and gold. Right, exactly. I found that in the utility business that a lot of your really good leaders are the are the guys and gals who were in the union for a number of years and and made that switch. The problem is it is so hard to get union people to make that switch because why exactly why why would I do that?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:14

Yeah, it's just you, I mean, because and the other thing is you see all these, even though it's not apples to apples, you see these people being unsuccessful, and you're like, well, what if I'm that guy? Right. Like you can be that guy in the union and you still might make it. You can't be that guy in the non-bargaining unit and make it. They will just fling you like cordwood. Right. They will find someone else to do that job very quickly. So, yeah, it is it, but you're right. I mean, uh, you know, uh the green to gold folks tend in the military tended to do much better. You know, they just they they were l it was less uh theoretical, it was more practical. Like, I've done this, I didn't just read it in a book, guys. So the stuff really works. I know, I know it does. Yeah, I like I promise I won't get you lost. The map's not upside down.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:08

Exactly, exactly. So well, I think the other piece too, like you came from the union, you already have a relationship with with your union. And I mean, you cannot be in management and not have a good relationship with your union.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:23

No, it absolutely does not work. No, it doesn't. Well, that and that's some of what these other guys I think didn't quite I think that's where the disconnect for some of these other folks were that tried those job the leadership positions. You know, it's not Coca-Cola, it's not a sweat shop, or even a non-sweat. If in a place where there's no union, yeah, okay, it's it's the old school, you know, I'm the boss, you'll do this. Right. No questions asked. A union shop, there's equal say, it's a it's more of a partnership, and you become more of a facilitator as a leader than as a traditional, you know, leader. You know, you're still a leader, but you have to be very creative as a leader in a union shop, where in a you know, a belt buckle factory you can just tell them to do it. Hit the green button, that's what I said to do. Right, right. Well, the other thing is you're not building widgets either. No, you're not. Yeah, you want thinkers in those jobs. So, so, so um, yeah, it so it's not it, it it does. I think it it takes that experience. You can't pluck somebody out of uh a different environment and drop them in. It's just not translatable at all. It you know, they're speaking a totally different language, is really what it comes down to. And uh, you know, they're dealing and let's be fair, you know, when you're making widgets, the people making the widgets aren't widget experts, they just are green button experts. Right. So it maybe takes that style of leadership of hey, hit the green button, that's what I said to do. Where in a utility, you got SMEs like some of these people might know more than you do, yeah. And you have to be able to be humble enough to know that, and uh, you know, and and intelligent enough to to employ that that uh skill set without upsetting the Apple cart. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:25

Yeah, the book says that's how you do it, but uh experience says that's that how it works, right? That you see that all the time, especially in the utility business, where here's what the book says you're supposed to do, but um it doesn't work in this situation because of whatever. Yeah, there's a rock in the way, or the customer doesn't want it there, or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:42

Or you know, a contractor put this panel on instead of that panel. I mean, you you need the adaptability of a of a workforce that, for lack of a better phrase, questions its leadership regularly. Right. Because they don't just question you, they will question you regularly, like, are you sure we should do it like this? Well, let's think through this together. So that's usually a clue when someone says, Are you sure that's what you want? Exactly. They kind of give you a, you know, it's a get-out of jail free card. Right. Because I'll do it the way you're telling me to, but yeah, I do have a better way. Right. So yeah, and it did, it were you know, there's still, I feel, um, a learning curve, no matter who you are, especially coming from the military. You know, my um experience with leadership in the military is a little more of the, you know, not always, but many times. Uh, you know, my word is law. I'm I'm I'm an NCO or I'm on whatever your rank is. Once you have some stripes or a bar or something on your collar, I have the backing of the UCMJ. I don't just, I'm not just your boss, I have a thick book that sits behind me. That I'll hit you with. Yeah, that that that could possibly bear you. Not that you know that's how you want to do things, but we all know it. You know it coming up. They let you know, like, hey, you know, there are legal orders, and as long as those orders are legal, you don't really get to question them too much. You might be able to, you know, object a little bit and be like, Are you sure? Yes, I'm sure. Okay, I guess we're gonna run up this hill. But you know, so so there was a little bit of I had to kind of unlearn a little bit of what I knew from being an NCO in the army to you know being a shift supervisor in a utility business. It was you know, it wasn't huge, but it was it was definitely taking a step back for myself and going, okay, I have to shed some of this skin.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:40

Yeah. Well, I think that's the key to being successful when you transition out, right? Is you you need to know what military things are gonna work and what military things you just need to put behind you.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:51

Yeah, they they don't not everything translates to different different worlds, right? That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:55

That's right. So I want to back up a little bit. Um, you you were married, you had Two children. When when if you don't mind my asking, when when did you end up getting divorced? When did the split happen?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:08

That would have been oh seven, around 2007. So after about a year after I gotten out of the army, we were living together, we had a house. Um and honestly, it I think it was probably more me. I couldn't live with who she she was by the time I came back

Marriage Strain And Single Dad Life

SPEAKER_00 1:06:30

because she was her own person, and she did things like there was nobody else in the house. Right. Because there hadn't been. Because there, yeah, because there hadn't so you know, to her defense, here I come, you know, and I'm like expecting things to be similar to the way things used to be, and they're nothing like the way they used to be, and I had a hard time adapting to that.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:51

To like, oh okay, you you know, we're almost two separate people in here. It's it and a marriage can work like that, absolutely. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I couldn't reconcile it. Yeah, that makes sense. I just couldn't do it. So we ended up splitting up and then uh I ended up remarrying a few years down the road. Uh my second wife, Jessica, and I had two more. I had another dog, I ended up with three daughters, and then the youngest is a son. So I I've I uh um rounded it out with with a son.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:29

I I had a cousin who had six daughters trying for a boy. So some people, you know, you just keep going. Yeah, I don't think so. That's just not a good thing. So so um so you're still you're currently married then?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:41

No, no, no. We ended up we we lasted um a long time. Actually, I thought that marriage would last forever, but she ended up uh, you know, I don't know if uh, you know, if I had the monkeys paw or what, but she ended up getting she ended up schizophrenic. She ended up getting schizophrenia, and I tried to get her help for I would say five, six years, and I got her in, um, but she wouldn't cooperate with treatment. That that was kind of the hardest part. And I had kids, you know, we had kids living in this situation, and as much as uh you say, like, you know, sickness and health, there are some sicknesses that you know there there are just triage sometimes, and that's what it came down to, is the kids weren't I don't think they were in danger of her killing them, but the damage she was doing to their psychological well-being was bad, it's just as bad. I it it it it just wasn't an environment conducive to the kids. And they were still, you know, they were six, seven at the time, so I had to make a decision where it's like, all right, if you don't want to cooperate with with treatment and you're hiding pills under the mattress, and I'm finding full bottles and you're just refilling it like you took them all. And I did, I found a basket of months, and I'm like, well, now I know why things aren't really changing around here. You're hiding this stuff. I just I ended it. I said, you know what? All right. And the kids lived with me. I kept custody of the children. She got to see them, but it was better for them mentally, and and they were starting to get that uh it was stressing them out big time, you know. It was it's not you know, it's just not an environment for children. So so that marriage didn't end. And uh, you know, I've dated over the years and I've done some things, but um being a bachelor being a bachelor dad ain't that bad for me, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

It works for you, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:46

It works for me, and and uh, you know, I uh I I got to concentrate on my kids a lot. And yeah, um the other ones were older when all this took place, so they were kind of out of the woods already, you know, teenagers and wasn't really it was the her me and her kids that were were paying the price. Right. But uh, you know, I just we go to Disney, we do our thing, you know, and yeah. So your kids are all older now, then they're all oh yeah, yeah. I got uh one starts U of M. She's she's 21 or 20 22, and she starts U of M here. Uh this fall, yeah. She's gonna go for graphic arts. Uh and then her sister Maya is gonna start at LCC for social work. So um, so both of them are in college. They're uh Olive, which is the oldest one of my second marriage kids, she's driving now. Um, and her brother Phalan, he's not far behind me. He's as tall as me now. Yeah, he's gonna be tall. I was like, well, you know, I mean, I'm not super short, but I ain't super tall either. You got somebody else's jeans, man, because he's shooting for the moon. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:07

So yeah, I'm getting to the point now where you know I actually travel a little bit. You know, I do things. My my mama watched the case, they're they're on their own anyways, they're more independent. Um, so they little periods of time they're good by themselves. So I will go uh do what I did in the army as a civilian, and I just go to different places. I've been to the Philippines, I went to Brazil like three times now. I thought I like Brazil a lot, actually. It's cool country. Nice place. It is. It's I you know, you see stuff since my brother's like, I'll never go, I'll get kidnapped. I'm like, it's nothing like that, dude. I mean, if you go to the wrong place, probably, right? But you can get that in the United States. But yeah, I was like, you can go down the wrong alley in New York City and have the same problems. Right, right. I I don't go to those areas. I'm not that guy. You know, I'm I go to the beach and I go like to the to the good spots, you know, where with the I mean I've been through the country, I've taken buses across, I've never felt like I was in danger, you know. Nice, friendly people. Um, so yeah, now I'm I'm kind of learning to you know see the world and do that stuff when I you know when I'm not working.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:15

But yeah. So we've talked about a lot of stuff. Is there anything that that uh we haven't talked about that you wanted to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:23

Um gosh, I don't. I mean, we did talk about a lot. I uh I I will say, you know, uh I did end up using my my later in life, you know, I I uh took that shift supervisor job, and to take an F1, which is the highest water treatment license, you need a college education. So I finally said I'm gonna use my post-9-11, which some of us that got out earlier, ours had a clock

GI Bill School And Final Advice

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

on it. It doesn't have a clock anymore, right? But ours had like a 15-year clock on it, and my clock was running out at this point. Might as well use it. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna go back to school. I had taken some classes in the past, not many. I mean, I might have had like 12 credit hours or something. I did some while I was in the uh in the army here and there when I could. Um, but I went back to school, so that you know, you need pretty much an associate's degree to write the um F1 test. So I went back to school so I could do that. And you know, I I rode the post-9-11 GI bell till my clock ran out. I didn't run out of money, I ran out of time. Right. But uh yeah, I I would tell people like, you know, don't wait on that. Well, I guess you can now, but I I still wouldn't I wouldn't wait.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:48

I'd use things change all the time, you just never know.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:50

Yeah, yeah, I would use it. I I didn't and the one thing the reason I guess my my golden reason for joining the military is the one thing I never did until late late late in life. I joined for the army college. I mean, a lot of other reasons, but you know, that was like I'm gonna go to college when I'm done, and then I got a utility job, and I but eventually, you know, all roads lead to Rome. And if you want to I feel like you, you know, for the most part, not always, but for the most part, there's a ceiling to break, and education is the ceiling, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:25

It's kind of like a tiebreaker, right? Yep. All things being equal, this guy's got a degree, this guy doesn't have a degree.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:31

Yeah, I think that's yeah, it just it's not a bad thing to have no matter what.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:35

So it's not it's not absolutely necessary, but it's certainly not a bad thing to have either. No, yeah. Yeah, I didn't get my degree until I was like 40.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:42

Yeah, and that's where that's where I was at.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:45

And I I got it because I was getting my commission and I went through OCS, and I'm like, well, I'm not gonna go through OCS and not get a commission. So I had to I had to go to college while I was going through OCS. It was a mess. But hey, yeah, done, right? I was a I was I was a better student at 40, that's what I like to think.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:03

Me too, yeah. I I definitely am like, well, I you know, I probably would have been drinking my degree away if I did it at 21, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

Right, right. Some of us were not ready for college at that age, but yeah. Well, all right. So I just really have one last question to ask, and that is um, for someone listening to your story a hundred years from now, um, what would you like them to take away from this? What advice would you give to people?

SPEAKER_00 1:15:29

Uh I I don't I mean, honestly, I would say uh I mean I don't want to say like follow your dreams, right? That's cliche. But um you know you're gonna have all these plans, you're gonna have all these dreams, you're gonna have all these thoughts or whatever. Um don't be afraid one to to take a step in the the direction you want to go in. Because as long as you are committed to making it happen, you'll make it happen. Um and if you know, if you feel like you're lost or you feel like you need some direction, Uncle Sam is always there to help. And I personally think, you know, after going through the experience, I think almost any person could benefit from some form of civil service, uh, whether it's Army, Air Force, Coast Guard, Paramedic, I don't know. Whatever, you know. I think as an 18-year-old, that's a great place to start. But uh I guess the biggest thing would be whatever you're gonna do, just commit to it, follow through with it. Um never quit. Don't quit. Finish whatever whatever you start, you better finish it. I don't care what it is. Uh, and you'll always get a positive result. I'm I I can't think of a time I failed with that with that mindset.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:06

So well, thanks, Mike, and thanks for taking time out today to to sit and talk with us. Oh yeah, thank you. I appreciate uh oh you're welcome.