Clean Energy in the Southeast with Cary Ritzler and Dory Larsen

The Southern Alliance for Clean Energy (SACE) is a regional organization focused on transforming the way we produce and consume energy in the Southeast. As a leading voice for energy policy in our region, this non-profit organization promotes responsible and equitable energy choices to ensure clean, safe, and healthy communities throughout the Southeast.

In this episode, Cary Ritzler and Dory Larsen sat down with us to discuss what it will take to transition to a clean energy economy, and how you can take advantage of federal tax incentives to make your home more energy efficient and make it easier to switch to an electric vehicle.

RESOURCES
Southern Alliance for Clean Energy website
New Clean Vehicle Credit
Used Clean Vehicle Credit
Commercial Clean Vehicle Credit
Making the case for managed charging
Why EVs have lower emissions even when your utility uses fossil fuels
Emissions Calculator
EVs lower utility bills for all

Jacksonville Climate Coalition

Transcript

Clean Energy Economy Transition Discussion

Lori Ann Santamaria 0:00

Welcome to Sustainable North Florida . I'm your host , Lori Ann Santamaria .

Cary Ritzler 0:05

We're building a movement of people around the Southeast to make sure that individuals and communities are getting the full benefits of the investments in climate and clean energy .

Lori Ann Santamaria 0:20

Welcome to Sustainable North Florida . I'm your host , Lori Ann Santamaria , and I am really excited about today's episode . It's one I've been wanting to do for a while . We have Cary Ritzler and Dory Larsen on the show with us . Cary and Dory are with the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy , also known as SACE . I have been a fan of this organization for a while . They're a great resource for understanding how the various states in the Southeast are making the transition to a clean energy economy and understanding how the various states in the Southeast are making the transition to a clean energy economy . One of the things that I appreciate about SACE is that they provide concrete steps on what you can do as a citizen to make an impact on reducing emissions . So ,Cary , let's start with you . Can you tell us a little bit about the organization and what it is that you do at SACE ?

Cary Ritzler 0:58

Yeah , the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy is a nonprofit organization that promotes responsible and equitable energy choices to ensure clean , safe and healthy communities throughout the Southeast . We work in Florida , Georgia , South Carolina , North Carolina and Tennessee and we've been a leading voice in energy policy in our region for several decades In this work , SACE is focused on transforming the way we produce and consume energy in the Southeast . My role is I'm the climate advocacy manager and a big part of my work is engaging with our members and just people around the Southeast who want to get involved in helping people to figure out how they can take action .

Lori Ann Santamaria 1:46

And how did you get started here ? What is your background and how did you end up at SACE ?

Cary Ritzler 1:51

Well , I was an elementary school teacher for many years . I had gotten very interested in climate advocacy sort of on the side and worked a lot locally with just a handful of other advocates who wanted to see clean and renewable energy in our town of Athens , Georgia . We called it the 100% Renewable Energy Initiative and we achieved a local resolution in 2020 to get a 100% clean and renewable energy resolution passed by the city council . We also found some funding to help them get started and it was through that work that I just got very interested in the transition to clean and renewable energy . I went back to school to get a degree in public administration to help me figure out how all the different levels of government work , which has been super helpful , and as I was finishing my degree , I was lucky enough to find a position here at SACE .

Lori Ann Santamaria 2:54

Dory , can you tell us a little bit about your background and what your current role is at SACE ?

Dory Larsen 2:58

Sure . So I'm the Senior Electric Transportation Program Manager at SACE and I've been with the organization for over six years now and it's been really fun to watch the space grow of electric transportation while I've been in the role . My background , my master's degree , is in public health and I spent a lot of time like Cary in public education . I'm in Pinellas County in Tarpon Springs , got involved in a local effort because we realized they were building on 70 acres of undeveloped property a super center for a box store and started a community organization to keep that from happening and just realized the enormous amount of energy and force that community members have when they raise their voices collectively . So I really was empowered by that community organizing effort and decided to switch careers and wanted to do something similar . So got an opportunity with SACE as the EV associate . So started off very low on the totem pole and learned a lot and have grown , like I said , as the space has matured , and it's been a wild ride to where we are today .

Lori Ann Santamaria 4:17

So you guys frame a lot of your discussions around the clean energy economy , which I like . Everything that we do each day is impacted by economics , and talking about things from a dollars and cents perspective really makes it easier for people to understand how their everyday choices can impact carbon emissions . Cary , can you describe what you mean when you use the term clean energy economy ?

Cary Ritzler 4:38

A lot of our economy right now is powered by fossil fuels . That includes coal , oil , natural gas , also called fossil gas it's a fossil fuel . You know the gasoline we put in our cars , etc . So a lot of the things that we do , the way we move around our communities , the way we get our goods and the way we run our households has been powered historically and continues to be powered by fossil fuels , and those are , of course , causing pollution that leads to climate change , which has all sorts of negative impacts , some of which we are seeing now and many of which we are likely to continue seeing in the future , particularly if we do not move into a cleaner way of powering all of those things that get us all through our days , you know . So when we think about how to get to a clean energy economy , there's three big buckets where , you know I'd put most of the things we need to do to get to a clean energy economy . So the first thing is to make everything way more efficient . So if we are able to use less energy of any kind , no matter how it's produced , then that , for one thing , reduces our reliance on fossil fuel , even if we are continuing to have fossil fuels in the mix and it also makes it more possible for us to meet the needs of powering our daily lives with clean energy , because we will simply be using less of it . The second step is to electrify everything , and in that step , you know , you're kind of shifting some things that many of us do right now . So when we talk about electrifying everything , we're talking about turning as many of those activities and really all of those activities are eligible to be powered by electricity . Instead , instead of having an internal combustion engine car , you can have an electric car . Instead of heating your water with gas , you can heat it with electricity , etc .

Cary Ritzler 6:46

The third step is to maximize renewable energy . So there's a few ways to do that . A big one for the southeast is rooftop solar , so putting solar panels right on the site . Another part of maximizing our renewable energy is to distribute the generation of electricity . So under the current paradigm with fossil fuels , our electricity is most often produced in really big power plants that may be pretty far from where we're using it , and then it travels on power lines all the way to every little building in the territory that gets electricity . So if you're talking about distributed generation , then you may be thinking about putting you know community solar or little bitty grids of solar we call microgrids , and sort of collecting smaller sites of energy distributed around the territory instead of just having things produced in a big fossil fuel plant somewhere .

Lori Ann Santamaria 7:49

I remember reading at one point that about 40 percent of the energy is lost over transmission , so if you're moving from having electricity produced at the power plant to having solar , for example , I mean that actually makes it much more efficient , because you're not losing that over the transmission lines . Yes , absolutely so . I recently switched to a heat pump water heater , and now the cost for me to heat water at my home is just one quarter of what I used to spend , so it's a really big difference . But the thing with something like a water heater is that it's usually an emergency purchase , and that's what happened to me . My last water heater stopped working , and I needed to get a new one . I was lucky , though , because the unit that I was replacing was already electric . If you happen to be on gas , though , switching to an electric one is more complicated . Do you have any suggestions on how people can handle that ?

Cary Ritzler 8:37

That's a great question . If someone's thinking about electrifying their home or making their home more efficient , that's often not something that someone's going to sit down and do all at once . You really want to look at things over time and replace things as needed . One of the first things that we encourage people to do if they don't already know a lot about their energy needs get an energy audit , where you have someone come in and look at your home and give you some suggestions . Have an electrician look and give you an assessment of whether you need any upgrades to be ready .

Cary Ritzler 9:10

So if you have a gas stove right now and you know that it's going to last 10 more years , you know we're not saying everyone needs to run out right now and replace it . Some of these things will go on the list of like . When it breaks , be ready so that you're not in an emergency and have to run out and buy a new gas one . If your intention is eventually to be electric , then you , you know , go ahead and know what you need for the electric work to replace these appliances so that when they break , you're ready . There are tax credits available now and through 2032 for a lot of those individual home energy upgrades for households and so that those being available till 2032 for a lot of those individual home energy upgrades for households and so that those being available till 2032 can give people a range of time to be thinking about making these changes .

Lori Ann Santamaria 9:56

And I know you guys have provided a lot of detailed information on that . I know you had a webinar recently around that . Is that available on your website ?

Cary Ritzler 10:03

Yes , it is , and I can also share it with you , so you can include it in links .

Lori Ann Santamaria 10:08

Okay , so those three steps that you outlined , that's actually a lot of work that needs to happen . There's a really big transition that needs to happen in our economy , in our society . So what are some tools that are being used in order to help that transition along ?

Cary Ritzler 10:23

One of the big things that we have in our hands right now are two federal laws that passed in the last few years , called the Inflation Reduction Act , also called the IRA , and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law . Both of these laws that were passed during the Biden administration provide funding in the forms of grants and incentives . So I talked a little bit about the tax credits . There are tax credits available now for people who have a tax liability . There's also tax credits for EVs , which I think Dori can talk more about . There's a tranche of grants coming out , called the Solar for All grants . We're expecting every state to have an entity like a nonprofit or a government entity that gets a Solar for All grant , and we're expecting those announcements very soon , possibly even this month .

Lori Ann Santamaria 11:17

I've also heard about regulations or rules with the EPA to limit pollution . Can you shed light on that topic ?

Cary Ritzler 11:25

Yeah , under President Biden the EPA has put in place several rules that limit harmful air pollution and tighten standards for things like vehicle tailpipe emissions that was a recent rule Appliance efficiency , harmful soot and methane pollution . We're expecting very soon EPA will announce a new set of rules to regulate , for the first time , carbon emissions from power plants , and the EPA has expressed plans to continue limiting pollution through that rulemaking process . But of course that's a presidential administration guided process and so how it all plays out depends on the presidential elections . Epa is controlled by whichever president is in office , so there can be , and we often see , very big shifts between presidential administrations At SACE . We don't get involved in electoral politics , but we do want people to know that elections have big consequences for climate policy . But you know , it's been exciting to see these new protective rules come out of the EPA over the past few years .

Lori Ann Santamaria 12:25

And that's a really important point .

Electric Vehicle Incentives and Fleet Electrification

Lori Ann Santamaria 12:27

I like to turn our attention now to transportation . Dory , you're the expert on this for SACE , but we're lucky that you are also a Floridian , so I think you probably know that most of our listeners here in Northeast Florida are customers of JEA , and last year JEA's energy mix included 3% renewable sources and 3% from nuclear , so that's a total of just 6% of carbon-free electricity , so 94% of our energy is coming from fossil fuels . Because of this , some people think that switching to an EV is going to have little impact on their overall emissions . How would you respond to that concern ?

Dory Larsen 13:01

Yeah , I think that that you know inherently , people think that . But when you peel back the onion and you look at the data and the facts behind it , it becomes a lot more clear that electric transportation is the single best way to reduce emissions , and part of it is what Cary talked about in terms of energy efficiency . So if you think of energy efficiency with vehicles , an electric vehicle is just far more efficient . About 80% of the electrons that go into the car move it down the road , and the inverse is true with a gas car . Because of the combustion process , a lot of it's converted to heat , so only about 20% of the gasoline that you put in your car actually moves the car down the road . So when you calculate emissions , we have calculators that do that .

Dory Larsen 13:48

There's a really cool one on fueleconomy . gov that I've shared and it would be great if folks can take a look at it . You can put in your zip code and it will actually tell you how many emissions are generated , either per mile or annually . And in Florida an EV makes about 2,600 pounds of carbon emissions , compared to a regular car that puts out about 12,500 pounds of carbon emissions annually . So it's only about 20% of the emissions that are when you're driving an electric vehicle compared to a gas car , even if the energy that's fueling the electricity is from a fossil source , because it really just has to do with the efficiency of the machine .

Lori Ann Santamaria 14:38

Okay , great . So we're making an impact , even if our grid isn't necessarily clean , but then also , over time , as our grid hopefully gets cleaner and cleaner , then the EV that you're driving is going to get cleaner and cleaner as well , I guess . Does that make sense ?

Dory Larsen 14:53

That's kind of how I look at it . Emissions are virtually zero , besides the initial you know production of the vehicle , which pencils out at about 18,000 miles of driving . So in about a year and a half worth of driving , even the upstream emissions to create the battery are canceled out . So you know , I'm powering my EVs from our rooftop solar and it's very , very few emissions to drive our cars .

Lori Ann Santamaria 15:25

So okay . So for people that have switched to an EV already , JEA has a program to encourage EV customers to charge their vehicles during off-peak hours , and basically that means if customers refrain from charging on weekdays between 6 am and 10 pm , they are eligible for a rebate of $7 a month . And at the time that I was looking into it for my vehicle , JEA's energy mix was actually only 2% carbon-free electricity at the time , and I think that was all from solar . So my thought process was that if I charged at night , I would definitely be using fossil fuels to charge my car , but if I charged during the day at least , I had a really , really small chance . But I had a chance that solar would be used to charge my car , and so for a while , my little , my small act of protest was to decline the rebate and charge during the day .

Dory Larsen 16:12

Tell me why it was wrong . Yeah , so this all has to do with managed charging and trying to use electrons that they are generating overnight when demand is low , because it impacts the grid's capacity . So managed charging is this idea that you charge when the electricity companies , the power companies , are producing electricity and then you're gobbling up those extra electrons at night when demand is low . So a study was recently done by Synapse Energy Economics and they found that EV drivers provided $3 billion in revenue to the grid between 2011 and 2021 . And what that's demonstrating and it had been theoretical , but now it's actually concrete evidence that EVs are putting downward pressure on rates for everyone . So they found that even through cost , including grid upgrades , the cost for electricity and transmission revenue is still up for the utilities to the tune of $2.4 billion . And then utilities have to report that increased revenue in rate proceedings and then rates and bills are adjusted so those rates benefit all customers , not just EV drivers . So it really is a win-win .

Lori Ann Santamaria 17:28

Because we're switching to electric vehicles , the utilities are making more money . Is that correct ? That is correct , Okay . So how does that then result in lower rates for us , for everybody ?

Dory Larsen 17:41

So utilities are increasing revenue and then they have to report that increased revenue in rate proceedings and then it adjusts the rates in the bills for everyone , okay , so rates benefit all customers , not just EV drivers .

Lori Ann Santamaria 17:59

So is it true that , for example , for an investor-owned utility , they are only allowed to make a certain percentage ? Correct , okay , okay , so because the utilities are allowed to make a certain , they're only allowed to make a certain amount . If EVs are bringing to make a certain , they're only allowed to make a certain amount . If EVs are bringing more on to the grid , then they're still only allowed to make that certain amount , and so it gets divided across everybody and the rates are then lowered , exactly , okay , all right , I understand . Thank you so , dori . What are some of the incentives that are available for people that are ready to make the switch ?

Dory Larsen 18:33

for people that are ready to make the switch . Yeah , so , like you mentioned , the JEA rebate program is $7 a month if you charge off-peak . They also have $300 for pre-wiring for if you want to put a charging unit in your house , and then that can be combined with some of the federal tax credits that Carrie had mentioned . So there are several federal tax credits that folks can apply for , either as an individual , for their home , for their personal use , or now , because of the new direct pay provisions , nonprofit organizations and local governments that are tax exempt and have previously never had tax liability are able to take these credits . So it's really exciting that you're getting this whole new group of people that are able to tap into these tax credits . So the first one is called 30C . It's a credit for the charging units themselves , so it's up to $1,000 for individuals , or up to $100,000 per unit , so per charging station , for businesses and , like I mentioned , local governments and tax-exempt entities now qualify . So that's one for the charging units themselves . There's also a used EV credit , which is also 30% up to $4,000 . And it's for vehicles that cost up to $25,000 . And there are wage requirements as well , so as an individual , you can't make more than $75,000 a year or , if you file jointly , $150,000 a year .

Dory Larsen 19:59

There's also a new clean electric vehicle credit . Similar it's up to 30% , max is out at $7,500 . But there are battery content and production requirements . So fueleconomygov has a list of all of the qualifying vehicles . And then , finally , I'll mention the commercial vehicle credit , which is really exciting . So this can apply to a lease and it also does not have the prevailing battery content qualifications , so a lot more models qualify . So for local governments , they can now , like I said , take the tax credit and get up to $7,500 on a vehicle that weighs less than 14,000 pounds . But they also apply up to $40,000 for medium and heavy duty trucks . So if they want to switch to an electric refuse truck , you can apply those credits .

Lori Ann Santamaria 20:55

So that's something that small businesses will be able to tap into as well . Yep , absolutely , and as a consumer .

Dory Larsen 21:00

You know , if you don't have , like Carrie mentioned , tax liability , a lot of the dealerships will offer a lease and you can take the commercial vehicle credit through that . So there are a lot of really attractive lease offers right now for electric vehicles using that commercial credit .

Lori Ann Santamaria 21:17

Okay , yeah , thank you for mentioning that . I know a lot of people have been asking that question about purchase versus lease . I think that that will be helpful for people to understand how that works . So I think some of what you said touches on this a little bit with respect to the charging infrastructure , but a big component of electrifying transportation will be in addressing fleets . Can you tell us about any work that's being done in Florida with respect to that ?

Dory Larsen 21:42

Yeah , I mean , one of the fleets that I'm really excited about and that SACE has been doing some work on is electric school buses in Florida . So there was an opportunity with the Volkswagen diesel gate settlement . There was $60 million awarded for electric school buses and then now the EPA has a clean school bus program and so there are quite a few school districts across the state that have been starting to transition to electric school buses . Florida has 379 committed vehicles electric school buses and there's already 182 operating in the state , so that'll impact almost 8,500 students . Lots of different districts , so Miami-Dade , Broward , Palm Beach County , Orange County , Duval County , Dixie , Hillsborough , Manatee , Pinellas and Glades so it's a mix of urban and rural , which is really nice that these benefits are being spread across the state .

Lori Ann Santamaria 22:37

That's really exciting to hear that's going on in our backyard .

Dory Larsen 22:40

Yeah , it is . A lot of the emissions from school buses sit right where the children are sitting and there's studies that have demonstrated that it impacts cognitive ability . It impacts test scores . So to be able to transition our school bus fleet and get kids in healthier rides to school is really important .

Lori Ann Santamaria 23:00

Yeah , that's great . I know we've talked a lot about getting off of fossil fuels and reducing carbon emissions specifically , but from what you just mentioned , there are a lot of bad things that are coming out of the end of school buses , so to be able to transition away from that helps the kids in many ways .

Dory Larsen 23:14

And not just the kids but also the community , because there are tons of emissions that are coming off of those buses that impact folks that are prone to asthma and cardiac patients . So it improves the air quality of the entire community . So we've been saying theoretically that it should work , but out in San Francisco , where they have these emissions sensors , they've actually been able to demonstrate that , as the rise of EV adoption is happening , you're seeing vehicle emission rates dropping 2.6% annually .

Lori Ann Santamaria 23:52

With that . Is there anything else we want to say about transportation ? I think you covered it very well .

Dory Larsen 23:56

Thank you . Yeah , no , I think it's mainly just that 30% of our emissions are coming from transportation . So if we're serious about reducing emissions , then cutting transportation emissions has to be a key part of all of these plans .

Lori Ann Santamaria 24:12

Carrie , one initiative that I think our listeners would be interested in is the clean energy generation . Can you tell us about that ?

Cary Ritzler 24:18

Yeah , I would love to , because this is one of the main lines of work in SACE that I'm involved in . It's been very exciting to help launch this movement and to see it grow . We're building the clean energy generation to be a movement of people around the Southeast who are working on bringing clean energy to our homes and to our communities . We bring people together to share success stories and to work together to make sure that the individuals and communities throughout the Southeast are getting the full benefits of the investments in climate and clean energy . We host a monthly call for our members around the region . This gives people a space to meet each other to learn about the most significant developments in the clean energy space , opportunities for individuals and communities to work to bring more clean energy to the Southeast .

Cary Ritzler 25:13

We host those on second Fridays at noon . But even if people can't make the meetings , we still encourage you to join the list , to get in touch and , especially if you have a story to share , we want to hear it . Hearing stories of individuals who are taking action , even in individuals who are taking action even in very small ways , is very inspiring to other folks , and I think you know you'd be surprised how many of your friends and neighbors and people all across the Southeast are eagerly trying to take advantage of these opportunities and make sure that this is successful . So those are really the stories that we're trying to tell , and so we'd love for people to reach out to tell us about actions you've taken in your own life or in your communities .

Lori Ann Santamaria 25:56

Katherine Hayhoe often says that the most important thing that you can do to address climate change is to talk about climate change , because a lot of times your neighbors are thinking about it and just not talking about it .

Lori Ann Santamaria 26:05

And the more we normalize the conversation , the easier it is for us all to come together collectively and take action , and I think the clean energy generation does a great job at that . I've sat in on a couple of those calls and it gets really helpful to hear what's going on in other cities in the Southeast and how they have put forth just like you mentioned earlier in our conversation put forth resolutions for their cities to commit to 100% clean energy . The other thing that I enjoy about this cause is usually there's also time for us to break out state by state , and so you can kind of get into a little bit further detail with people in your own state , which is a really nice way to connect and to learn from others . I think what you guys are doing is really helpful and impactful . So thank you guys for that . It's really been a pleasure speaking with you . Thank you guys for that .

Lori Ann Santamaria 26:50

It's really been a pleasure speaking with you . Thank you to Cary Ritzler and Dory Larson for sharing their knowledge about clean energy in the Southeast , and thank you for listening to today's episode . If you enjoy the program , please let your friends know about it and be sure to follow us on your favorite podcast platform . And now today's one good thing . If you live in Northeast Florida , you might want to check out Jacksonville Climate Coalition's regular newsletter . John Burr is a reporter with extensive experience covering environmental issues , and in the newsletter he discusses climate change topics that are specifically relevant to our You can find it on www . jaxclimate . org .