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Educational Relevance
A platform by educators for educators.
Educational Relevance
Dr.Eric Gallien: Resilience and Leadership
This week on Educational Relevance, we’re joined by Dr. Eric Gallien, a seasoned educational leader who opens up about navigating both personal and professional challenges in the world of education.
From community resistance to personal loss, hear how resilience, reflection, and relentless focus helped them lead with impact.
If you’re a school leader, educator, or aspiring administrator—this one’s for you.
Now streaming on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and all major platforms.
#EducationMatters #LeadershipPodcast #ResilientLeadership #SchoolLeaders #EducationalRelevance
For more information about the the topics discussed, contact us at
Bryan Wright: brwright44@gmail.com
Mark McBeth: mark@educationalrelevance.org
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Thanks for listening. Until next time, keep leading with heart—and stay educationally relevant.
Hello and welcome back to Educational Relevance, A platform by educators for educators where we explore, what it means to lead, learn, and grow in education. I am Bryan Wright. I'm currently an adjunct professor at Concordia University in Mequon, Wisconsin. I'm here with my partner in crime, Mark Macbeth. Mark is an accomplished author and an educational leader in his own right. Our episode today is about resilience and leadership, we have a guest, Dr. Eric Gallien. Now, Dr. Gallien is a close friend of mine, and I'm glad he's here next to me. So if I say all these things inappropriately, he'll fix, he'll take care of these things quickly. Eric was born and raised in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. And Dr. Gallian grew up in a low income household led by a single mother, and I know that neighborhood, West Lawn in Milwaukee. Everybody know Milwaukee. They know that's the projects. After graduating high school, he enlisted in the United States Marine Corps and served in combat during Operation Desert Storm. Following his honorable discharge, he pursued higher education earning a, a bachelor's degree in history education from University of Milwaukee In 1999. He further, his studies with two master's degrees from Alverno College, one in curriculum and instruction, and another in educational leadership, and earned his PhD in educational philosophy analysis, from the University of Madison in 2011, where he still continues being a Badger fan. So that being said, Mark, we are going to talk about, overcoming adversity in educational leadership. So Mark, I'm gonna turn this over to you for a few questions.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Well, very good. So you've served as a principal and a superintendent, when you think back on your educational career and the adversities that you had to face, what comes to mind on, what you felt the first time that it happened and then how you've kind of changed over time.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:So I think my introduction into education was interesting,'cause it wasn't as traditional as most people's. And one, I had an opportunity to work as an educational assistant prior to me even pursuing my degree. So I had that level of experience and exposure I actually went and got the, the theoretical information from my bachelor's degree. So that introduction into education, I was able to walk into the door with some theory, that I learned through my undergrad work. But more importantly, I was able to bring with me the experiences I had as two years of being an educational assistant. Educational assistance, what people most people don't realize is that they're the boots on the ground. They're, in the fight, in education, and they really do stuff that we don't see and do. And so I brought that experience to the table. So when I was a teacher, I was able to bring that to bear it made it easier for me. So I didn't have the traditional Aha moment that you have when you coming in with all this theoretical knowledge and now you bump up against real experience. I didn't have that. I brought with me experience and then I had, eight years of military experience as well.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Okay. How does things like that, the assistant job, the military, how does that shape your thinking in problem solving?
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:The military background really rooted me in what it means to have grit and perseverance and what that really entails. But more importantly, it taught me to think strategically and plan things out. In the military we learn an acronym called SMEAC, Situation, Mission, Execution, Administration and Logistics and Command and Signals. Now, all of those terms relate to war time, but you can apply that same theory to just common, everyday civilian life. You can apply the same theory. What is this situation? What do you need to get accomplished? How are you going to execute it? What things did you need to be aware of and what landmines could be potentially out there? And then how are you going to recoup and, regroup after you, successfully complete one level of the mission? Do you revisit? Do you restart? So I use that as a young teacher, I would always analyze my daily situation by, okay, what am I walking into? What are these kids gonna be up to? What do I need to be aware of? How do I need to plan for that? So it made my introduction into education a little easier.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Mm-hmm.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:'cause I had all those skills that I brought from those experiences. So Doc, I call him, this is how I've known him for years, you came in. after eight years in the Army and you started Corps Marine Corps. Marine Corps. Right. Marine Corps. Sorry, man. Yeah. Don't, just don't confuse those two. If my brother Bobby's watching this, don't get mad at me. That was a mistake. Right? I'll let you know that. My brother Bobby. Yeah. Bobby would've, Bobby would've got on me if I'd have let that pass. Yeah. Bobby a former Marine as well. But as a Marine, you came in after eight years of experience. How did that work for you, starting as an educational assistant and building your way up? So one of the things you learn is a, any type of armed services is, one of the principles you should learn is servitude, right? And so I, I had a servant's heart when I came out of the military and wanted to give back to my community. I've always had this passion. If had someone taught me as a young man the discipline and skills that I learned when I was in the military, if they would've exposed me to some of that before I got to the military, I, I would've probably been a stronger person. And so what I tried to do as an educator is infuse that lack of What I didn't get, I try to make sure those young men get, so I've always had a passion for trying to fill that gap with young men particularly, and that began my journey, and that's how I started out. I started out focusing on what can I do and how can I create an, experience in my room, in my classroom at the time that would elevate them, raise them up, but at the same time, raise all the kids, you know, because, and my theory was if I can get the, the lowest performing student to do their best and apply their skills, I definitely buy Osmosis is gonna get the rest of them.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Mm-hmm. So do you live by some sort of code even today that kind of states, this is my servitude type of approach you got some sort of code like that?
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:Absolutely.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:what?
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:That's exactly how I live right now. And so that, that code has shifted over times, like as I grow it, it grows with me, right? And so it started off with just me saying like, I just want to just have at the core of who I am. How do I help a young man be a better young man, right? Mm-hmm. How can I use these experiences? When I walked into the military, it was, it was a culture shock for me'cause I, I wasn't used to a man talking to me, but someone told me while I was in my journey that if you don't want them yelling at you. And if you don't want them to ridicule and, and be on your case about things, then you'd be the best at what you do. And I applied that theory to everything that I do. I said, well, if I don't want to be ridiculed, if I don't want to be overlooked, then I need to do this one job to my best ability. So when I was an educational assistant, I tried to put my best at it. I operated as an educational assistant, like most teachers should operate. And when I was a teacher, I operated like the administrators should operate and I just always was looking toward the next step. And, that all started in the military.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:So, as a, an administrator, what type of challenges have you faced personally and, professionally that, you've struggled with sometimes in, in this profession?
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:That's a great question and I think because I had such a long career in education that looked different at each stage, At each stage. I think of leadership in education. Everyone is a leader at their own level. Even the students are leaders at their own level, So at each level, I was challenged by different things. So when I came into education and I entered the administration ranks, the first challenge I was faced with was that people didn't have the same work ethic as I
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Yeah.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:And so my theory was how can you lead an organization or a school if you don't even show up on working time? I. Be diligent in your daily work. Like how do you show up when you show up at work? Are you professionally dressed? Do you present yourself as a professional? Do you put the work in or you just sit in the office and collect a check? So that was the first challenge. I, I brought a different set of work ethic to the table, and I couldn't understand why these people weren't doing the same thing. So that was
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Yeah, so did you get kicked back with that?
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:Oh, I got a lot of kickback. but I stood firm. My, theory has always been that we owe these children our best and I stepped into the arena always trying to present my best and I did it unapologetic. And so if, I, ticked off a few people, rubbed some people the wrong way, or called them out about unprofessional behavior, then so be it. I just kind of dealt with it because I felt compelled to do what was best for children.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:So if somebody is just kind of going through the motions of the day and doing their thing, what's really the drawback for kids?
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:One is that I, I feel as though, depending on your situation, every educational institution is not equal. So the urban institutions are not the same as the rural. And the rural is not the same as the suburban and so on and so forth. So every environment you have to show up as a different leader.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Yeah.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:Because I spent most of my career in urban, I can only speak to urban, So I'm saying I felt offended by administrators that would show up and wouldn't, at the very least, make sure students are safe. And that means you be on time, you greet them when they get off the bus. You are visible, are out there on the playground, you roaming those halls just at the core. I mean, if you don't do anything else, you just make sure they're safe. They show up that the teachers are where they're supposed to be. Everyone is moving the way they're supposed to do. The, the, the flow of the building feels safe. I personally make that a priority and I think that looks different in different environments where I've worked in more suburban type environments where the students kind of have a different set of values that they bring to school. You have to show up differently for them, but you have to show up. And so when I came from Milwaukee to Racine, it startled me that some administrators felt like, well, these kids are okay. They're, they're really nice kids. They, you don't have to be as diligent. Well, no, you do, because they get into stuff too. Suburban kids get into stuff too. Rural kids get into stuff too. The, the whole idea is to keep them safe, period. From themselves and from other people. So let me ask this question now, Doc, You mentioned keeping students safe, it seems like the first priority. You've dealt with enough administrators, where they always say the curriculum guides student behavior or student success. Others feel that once you have students feel safe, that'll enhance the curriculum and guide student success. Yeah. Which one are you the proponent of? And if I had to put you on the spot, which one would you say what you believe in and why? I think both are equally important, and I'll say, but it requires skillset do both, right? You have to be really good at the whole administrative job to do both. Now, some people show up, they're just disciplinarians. They're born structured, and they provide that safety for students and structure and routine, Some people are really good at that, but they never really hone their skills on understanding how instruction also provides structure and safety.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Mm-hmm.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:because when good instruction is not happening, then you can all things break open and all hell breaks loose. And so once I establish safety as my foundation, then I'm really tuned in to how I know students are learning. And in order to do that, you not have to only understand the curriculum. You need to understand the pedagogy. You need to understand how teachers give students feedback. What does that look like? What does good feedback look like? What does it mean for you to objectively observe a teacher without in inserting what you think is going to happen or giving them credit for something that they did not do.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Yeah.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:You have to really hone your skill, so it, it requires two distinct set of skills to do both. Now, to marry them is even more skills, and so I pride myself on the fact that I could do both.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Yeah.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:But I started with safety
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:I think that's a great question that you asked Bryan, because I do hear him talking about having a code, a way he approaches things when he talks about safety and all that. I think he's really defining climate of a school, that when people walk in, they got an environment that they can actually be effective in. once that's established as a foundation, Bryan and I often talk about culture. We, gotta convince everybody that instruction is important, that student learning is important, and when everybody starts to live that. Then all that instructional practices that you're seeing in the classroom all that stuff now makes sense.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:Mm-hmm.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:I agree, it's really hard to juggle all those things at once.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:Mm-hmm.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:One of the things we wanted to talk to you about was adversity. Can you share, a time in your, career that you faced with the extreme, adversity, and you just kept doing the right thing because that's what you were supposed to do.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:Okay, so, which one, Right, which one, and I'm trying, I'm trying pick ones that. Because it happened at different phases in my career.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Yeah.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:I would say some that really stand out to me. So, there's two extremes. So one I would say is just a mindset and really people just being rooted in tradition and having to face that and make people, and fight through. People wanna hold on to tradition, and I'll explain that in a minute. The other one is political. It's purely political. I want to use both of those because they both, in some respect are political., The first one I'm gonna talk about is really about people lack of understanding and willingness to change. As a leader, you have to be innovative. You, want to be innovative. One instance I can recall is when I first came to Racine Unified School District, and the superintendent challenged me, she said, what is one thing you want to be your legacy? I felt as though my whole career has been about me creating the structure that students needed to be successful. And sometimes, for some students, you have to put guardrails in place where they can't go outside the guardrails. Some kids, those guardrails need to be tighter, and some of'em, you can loosen'em up more, but nevertheless, every kid needs some guardrails. My first challenge was how do we transform high schools? In a way that feeds the industry, makes sure that we are intentional about the skills that we teach these kids.'cause for me to say, I want to be a doctor, and the teacher that's teaching me in high school don't have a clue what a doctor does, right? So they're teaching me biology, but they're not teaching me biology through the lens of a doctor, a physician or whatever it may be. So, I felt as though we need to flip the model. So, traditional high school has always been made up of the four core English, math, science, social studies. Right? They drive everything. The electives are just electives, But now the way that the industry and the economy works is industry driven. So when we first started school, it was important for in manufacturing companies to get people that could do basic math, to write a simple sentence, to read the history book, so on and so forth, or apply a simple formula that was important to the industry at that time. The industry has shifted. These kids have to have other skills. So what are those skills? They're very specific to each industry. So one of the challenges for Racine is I wanted to flip the model of high school, but I had to educate the community to, what that looks like. I started with the business community. Then I went to the parents, and then I went to the teachers, then I went inside to the students. Throughout that entire journey, I had to convince every place. But strategically, I knew if I could get the business community to understand what I was trying to do and get them to buy in, the parent challenges would be easier to deal with. I was misled when I thought that, so we had to work through that a little bit more diligently because the parents wanted to hold on to tradition. The industry, the business leaders understood what they needed. We would have Foxconn come into our community that was very automated manufacturing type of, it was beyond what was traditionally taught to students. Students didn't even understand that you can go into a major, welding firm right now, and this is clean as a hospital, but because mentally we were operating based on the old industrial system. Our school systems were still designed to feed that.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Yeah.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:So I wanted to flip that model and it, it challenged the, the entire community. Mm-hmm. And I had to work through that, but it taught me how to strategically work through things like that. But that was one major challenge. And it was based on people didn't want to give of give up tradition.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Why didn't you give up when you started getting kicked back on some of that?
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:I knew it was the right thing to do, and I knew once I get them to see it, and once I found a national model that people understood and I, I brought that model to Racine. So in essence, what you did doc, was you, formulated the climate, you changed climate at first. Right. So you knew the climate had to be shifted to the meeting. That's why you started building up safe environments. Right. But what you also saw was the need that the district needed to have as far as education, as far as kids and transformation of that. Right. So you made sure the climate was established, then you started working on the culture, right? Is that correct? Right. And and to show you how that all played like into my entire tenure at Racine. So, that was a project that she put me on. It wasn't something that we implemented right away. I did like a year or two of just research, talking to the community, prepping, prepping, prepping before we, now you say she, who's she? Oh, the, the former superintendent there. You, Dr. Hawes. Right. So part of her vision was to make sure our early childhood would be sufficient and really strong. So she was working with the local community around that. How all that ended up playing in my favor when I became the superintendent, we had already put a structure in place for how students entered school. We already had a place for how it gave me an opportunity as a leader to fill the gap, and that's currently where the district is at now. They're filling that gap, and so we put things in place that will build the structure to what it looks like for a student to be college and career ready. We thought they need to show up in school, being able to be kindergarten ready and then we put a benchmark in place to say they need to be able to read by third grade. And then I put, I would've put more in place if I would've stayed. So, and I think they're currently following the same model,
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:So let's shift gears real quick. the one thing that drives me nuts about education is the politics of it. It really, really does. So let's talk a little bit about politics and adversity.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:Yeah. So you know, right now I actually lived what we're currently seeing under our current administration for the United States, This attack on DEI, attack on all the programs and so on and so forth. As a leader, where I felt compelled to fight through politically was this idea that we had to label something. You know, I remember going when we were doing a strategic plan for Racine before I left, I had my top level administrators who felt like we need to call it DEI. We need to, we need to call it out. We need to do that. And me, politically, I understood that once we label it, gives it a, a target. And I knew politically, DEI social-emotional learning, all these little labels that we tie to all these different things that we know at the core are good things for people. Period. We, once we start labeling it, then we give it an opportunity to be attacked. Because at the end of the day, and I was just sharing this with a leader on my way over here, was that the end of the day, we still gonna have to address people's needs, right? Call it diversity, equity, inclusion, call it social emotional learning, learning. At the end of the day, society itself is going to have to address these needs. So to have the political institutions influence education is just not good. It's just not good. It, really contradicts everything that education is supposed to be about,
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Yeah.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:which is really exposing people to various ideas, to various instances, various historical events so that they can be informed and make informed decisions. So you kept the, the main thing, the main thing with the student strengths, right? However, sometimes politics and people's wish for more power got in the way. Mm-hmm. How did you circumvent those people both above you and below you? Who had a different mindset of maybe a personal, idea of what they wanted themselves to be instead of keeping that main thought of keeping the main thing, the main thing for students. Yeah. So I think going back to that first example, one of the things as a leader in Racine, I took the time to build the relationships, the support of the real influencers., The people who both influenced the community locally and the political agenda, and those are the business leaders. Honestly, the people who have the purse strings control everything. We see that with Elon Musk right now. He has a purse string. It's not that he's has a great idea and not that every idea that he has is bad, it's just that he has the money to control the purse strings. And so I understood that early in my career and I leveraged that. So in Racine, it worked for me because I, had already built those relationships. So when our speaker of the house would try to impose different things on Racine because we were one of the lowest performing districts at the time, when those political agendas came down on us, I was able to circumvent it because I had relationships with The major CEOs of these major companies that feed Wisconsin., So I was able to go to them and say, listen, if they do that, it's going to impact this community this way, and it's going to impact your bottom line this way. And I was educated enough to be able to do that. Not every leader spends the time to educate themselves in that respect. I have a business background along with my military background, so I understood those relationships. Now, my naive in all of this is that I thought I could replicate that when I went to Charleston, South Carolina. I thought, oh yeah, I understand. There's a whole lot of political nonsense going on there with people having agendas, there being political organizations out there that had agendas, like we see what's happening with the banning of books and so on and so forth. There's organizations that feed that, and so I felt like, okay, that happens, but I understand that if I can get to the CEO of Boeing. Mm-hmm. If I can get to the CEO of Bosch, if I can get to the CEO of BMW Mercedes-Benz, who reside right there in South Carolina, if I can get them to understand how the education system will help their bottom line, then those political entities will leave me alone. And that's what I thought I could replicate. Well. The political dynamics is a little greater than I thought. So the, engine was such around this idea of attacking, DEI banning books. Mm-hmm. That engine started three or four administrations ago. Mm-hmm. And it's changed names over time. And now it's like the Moms for Liberty or the Daughters of the Confederate or the Tea Party. All of those different entities were the engine that got Donald Trump to where he's at now. And, and because that engine was so heavily influenced, I couldn't do anything about it. It was already there. It didn't matter what I, could get the, because the engine was already in place when I got there.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Yeah.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:But that was my naivety. But I think to fight political entities, or agendas, you have to have good relationship with the people that pulled the purse strings.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:I look at this a few different ways. when we think about back to No Child Left Behind. All right, no child left behind is a code to me, right? That's a code. I can live by that. But people fought the system that was put underneath it and they fought it because it was a push down. Somebody saying you have to do something right. so I still think that No Child Left Behind was good.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:It was good in theory. I think that there wasn't enough time putting the infrastructure in place to support it.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:Yeah. Yeah. But I, I feel like sometimes as superintendent, people look at you as the political adversary and they're not willing to move forward because they think that you are telling them which way to go.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:Right.
mark-guest667_1_05-16-2025_103623:So, from their perspective, how do you think about it from there?
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_2_05-16-2025_103622:I think that's, a legitimate, perspective to have. Fortunately, when I was in my first district, which was seen as the leader I basically was internally grown, right? So I had those relationships and credibility. Now, I don't care how much credibility you have with people, they still question you when you're the main man. Mm-hmm.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_3_05-16-2025_111743:The politics are such now that, that people don't even really care about the kids. It's not even about the kids anymore. It's about the agenda and whatever that agenda is. It's unfortunate because the kids are gonna suffer. At the end of the day, the kids are gonna suffer. And that's the unfortunate part about what's going on to this day. It's gotten so bad that. At one point we used to have some humanity about it and said, well, we're gonna at least keep the kids safe. But now it's lost that. Mark, I know you feel strongly about this, this whole issue regarding, students and having politics and education. That the whole idea.
mark-guest396_2_05-16-2025_111745:Well, I, think that it's unacceptable that we ever accept a loss, whoever that is. You know, I, look at these things like, like this conversation today is so, so powerful. as a, uh, administrator, as a coach out there supporting people, I listen to these things and, and I can only be better at what I do. and I could think that everybody that listens to this could be better if they would just take the components and that, that code concept and the structure that we continue to hear from effective leaders that he talked about today, going through code climate, culture into the curriculum, making the connections, working on'em at the same time, people would just take those concepts that value. can set across, set aside the politics, they can set aside some of those things and really look at that. The end product is our students. It's not us. I always
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_3_05-16-2025_111743:say education right.
mark-guest396_2_05-16-2025_111745:a piece of cake without the adults. And, and it's because it's always an adulting issue. The politics you talked about is an adulting issue. I think that your message today was extremely powerful in that way. People can set politics aside and really think about what's best for kids. Keeping the main thing, the main thing you say a lot, Bryan you know, I appreciate everything you said today, your honesty about some of those things. One last thing I would say, is your role as a superintendent, feels like politics sometimes itself. I always tell people it's just my role, You mentioned earlier, everybody in the school's, a leader, a kid, a teacher,
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_3_05-16-2025_111743:Right,
mark-guest396_2_05-16-2025_111745:whatever. just your role. That's what you are hired to do. That component.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_3_05-16-2025_111743:right,
mark-guest396_2_05-16-2025_111745:They need to understand that you're doing your component and you're asking them to do their component. So students learn.
bryan-wright-and-eric-gallien_3_05-16-2025_111743:Exactly that. You put that perfectly. If more people understood on both sides, so if the employees understood that, you're not the person that's gonna come in and deal with a behavior problem. You're the face of the district. You're the person that's making people understand why they should support the institution, right? And how do we interface with each one another? That's what your role is. The the board needs to understand that you are the one that's hiring the right person and doing the right thing for the right purpose, and which is to educate kids. And if they would just let the superintendent do that. And even if some leaders,'cause some superintendents don't truly understand their role. They don't really understand. They because they're busy trying to manage the classroom. I've worked with some leaders, superintendents that would chastise a teacher. You don't, cha that's not ever, superintendents are always supposed to shake hands and kiss, babies. That's, that's what we do. We don't go, we don't chastise kids. We don't chastise teachers. At this point in time, I'm gonna put a wrap to the conversation. I think we've had a rich conversation today. I wanna make sure I say, a huge thank you to Dr. Eric Gallien for his honesty, courage, and leadership he shared with us today. There's a reason why I respect and honor this man. Because the things he's done in the past, the adversity he's overcome and the leadership he's shown me and helped me become a better leader. Now, there's one takeaway from this conversation is that adversity doesn't define you. How you respond to it does, whether you're in a classroom, the main office, or just stepping into leadership. Remember, every setback can be a set up for growth. If you found value in today's episode, please share with a colleague. Subscribe or leave us a review. It helps us, keep bringing you conversations that we feel matter. Until next time, keep leading with your heart and stay educationally relevant. Thank you all much appreciated. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.