Hi, I'm Avery Young and this is the Nourished Young Podcast. From the subway train to the soccer field, everywhere I go, people have a story to tell me about their experience feeding and caring for their new baby, and so I decided it was time to amplify those voices so we can all know what's real and what's possible and make those who are beginning their parenting journey feel a little less alone.
Today, I'm going to be talking with Kristin about her experience feeding her two babies and how breastfeeding her second baby didn't go how she initially planned, but how bottle feeding ended up being her best choice anyway.
Hi, Kristin, welcome to the Nourished Young Podcast. I'm so happy to have you here!
Today I'm going to be talking about her experience with two children taught her that a child's behavior isn't always about the parent, and what she does to help figure things out.
01:08 - Kristin (Guest)
My biggest thing is the lessons learned from expectations versus reality and also living your reality and understanding that, even though everyone tells you this is not forever, it's hard to believe that and understand it when you're in it and to not have a solution. I'm a solution person, so that's really like the I guess that would sum up my whole journey with parenthood the second time around, where the first time around you're just like I don't know anything, I don't think I need to figure this out, and then the second time around you think you know something and then it's going to be a little easier, and that's a lie that usually doesn't go that way. Maybe it works like that for some people, but it did not go that way.
01:53 - Avery (Host)
You told me that you are someone who doesn't trust yourself and that you look to outside sources to help guide you. And I love that, because I think there's a lot of people that they're sense of internal intuition, doesn't feel they don't resonate with that.
02:13 - Kristin (Guest)
Yeah, and I don't know if we've lost that through the generations, because it seems like our parents didn't know what they were doing either, but they didn't have outside resources really, and they trusted themselves more. Even in our eyes it was the wrong thing at the time, like they had no qualms, and they really had no qualms that they now say like their parenting method was better than ours and that we're doing it all wrong. So, they felt that confident about it that they're trying to get us to do what they did years ago.
02:38 - Avery (Host)
Or maybe their outside sources were more in person than like they trusted, like their church or their pediatrician or like those kinds of things. As opposed to, they didn't have as many places to pushback and I think the cool part about being a parent today is that there's more awareness that there isn't just one way to do it right.
03:03 - Kristin (Guest)
Exactly what you're saying. I agree that before it was the pediatrician or that Dr. Spock book, that it was more black and white, where okay, my kids doing this. I need to fill their bottle with rice cereal and have them cry it out all night until they sleep.
03:22 - Avery (Host)
It's funny that you bring that up because Dr. Spock was revolutionary in the fifties or sixties, whenever his book came out, and basically his book was like kids have feelings too, like that was pretty much what Dr. Spock's book was, very much a like hey, we can honor this child they're actually a tiny human as opposed to this very authoritative, we raise children to obey and this is what we need to do. And it's so funny, he got a lot of push back in his time, and he was on the fringe when he came out, and they were like, wow, this was controversial.
04:08 - Kristin (Guest)
That’s interesting. And that sounds like more of how we view it now too. I don't know how in between there it got so off course, maybe because it was controversial, and it's like, oh, kids are raised to obey, like he said.
04:23 - Avery (Host)
Yeah, he wasn't mainstream. Dr. Spock was like the big thing because it was surprising to what everybody else was saying.
04:31 - Kristin (Guest)
I didn't even know that.
04:33 - Avery (Host)
Yeah, it was funny. So you have two children. How old are your babies now?
04:39 - Kristin (Guest)
My first, my son is three years old, and my daughter, Emma, she is eight months old.
04:46 - Avery (Host)
So how has your experience from your second been different than your first?
04:56 - Kristin (Guest)
So I have to say neither one has been easy. And at first, I wasn't planning to have kids, so I always said I never want children. And then my son came along and I kind of set expectations that it would be awful, just from everybody saying parenthood is so hard of course me not thinking that I have the natural motherly instinct either, since I had never had that urge to have children.
So he was born, came out screaming like didn't stop screaming for a while. Breastfeeding was a challenge at first. He was born three weeks early. So for the first three weeks he couldn't latch. So we were doing like the syringe feeding with him and I was pumping. I ended up getting into an oversupply with him and like all of our struggles seemed to be around feeding at first in the latch, and one of the lactation consultants in the hospital mentioned a tongue tie and she thought he had one and recommended a laser specialist out like an hour away from where I live. So we didn't see much improvement in his latch the first few weeks and it didn't really hurt. He was getting what he needed. He was gaining weight. It was just more annoying that I knew his latch should be this like big open mouth and his was like more of a closed latch, but he was getting what he needed. But I'm a little bit of a perfectionist. I was like, let's just take him to this place, see what they say. And I'm like, yeah, he does have a bit of a tongue and a lip tie, we'll take care of them. Didn't recommend any stretches, it's pretty easy.
06:36
He was six weeks old at the time and his latch didn't really improve much after that. It might have, maybe it did improve, or it just didn't bother me as much anymore. But he gained weight fine and I ended up breastfeeding him for the first year of his life and our biggest struggle with him was we had no idea about baby sleep. So in that newborn stage everyone told me he'll sleep when he's tired, and he just ended up never sleeping because I didn't know that you had to help them to sleep. They really aren't able to. Maybe some babies are, but he wasn't able to fall asleep on his own and so he'd be up all day and then be a mess at night and me and my husband are like, oh, he wasn't tired all day, he can't be tired now, like he must be hungry. So we were just always trying to feed him, I think every parent does that … more food, more food.
07:28
And my husband, I'd go for a walk regularly every night by myself. That was like my time to get away, which was great, and so every time I'd leave for my walk at like seven or eight, it was a witching hour. So my son was fussy anyway and automatically overtired and my husband thought, oh, he needs a bottle. So my husband would give him a bottle and either eat a little or not and still be a nightmare to deal with. So, at four months old, after all of this lack of sleep, we're going to try sleep training. I forget I had a friend who, like, recommended it on Instagram.
08:04
I had never heard of sleep training before, and so I ended up getting a sleep consultant and she held my hand through the whole sleep training process and was like you know, you just have to set them up for sleep, do a routine, feed them, have a disconnect between sleeping and feeding, and it worked magically.
08:25
My son was sleeping from seven to seven, of course, waking up at night to eat and whatever, but he'd get up for 15, 20 minutes and then go right back down. So for him he needed that routine, that predictability, and to be set up for sleep, which all babies apparently have to do, or most babies have to do anyway, and I just didn't know it. So that was our biggest struggle with him. Everything else went pretty well. He's very high energy. But then, with my daughter, knowing that she might have a tongue and lip tie too even before she was born, I was like I'm going to take her to this place. We went to originally get her assessed for the tongue and lip tie. On her 20-week ultrasound we found out that she had kidney dilation and it's a soft marker for Down Syndrome. So that whole pregnancy ended up getting an amniocentesis test to test for that.
09:17
And I was worried about miscarriage, so I did it later in the pregnancy and that brought on some early contractions. So being worried about her kidneys on their own and then what that might mean and then having these effects from the amniocentesis. Luckily the amniocentesis was negative. She does not have Down Syndrome. So I'm a person and I just wanted to prepare myself for that if that were to be the case. But she had these kidney issues, and she has them still unfortunately. So we've been through a lot with that.
09:51
But for her, the feeding right off the bat, right after she was born. She was more on time, not early. So I figured, okay, we're going to have a better experience, she's going to latch better. But she didn't. So I did take her to get assessed for a tongue tie and she was one week old, didn't want to waste any time, it'd be very proactive, and I also had her go into a chiropractor because my son had torticollis and that made it harder for him to latch to.
So I got that her first week of life, trying to do all the things to make sure I'm setting her up for success and myself. And then we took her to this tongue type first and they're like yeah, she has a really bad lip tie these at tongue tie, but we can't do the procedure because she's on antibiotics for her kidney stuff. So she was on antibiotics for the full first month of her life Because they thought she might get a UTI because of the kidney dilation, and they didn't know it was causing the dilation at that time. So I had to leave, and you know, driving an hour out of your way with a one-week-old at night like it has to be, only had evening appointments was such a hassle. So I was like you know what? I'm going to look locally to see if I can find someone who does the same thing. I'm going to take her there.
So I found another place and they were willing to do the revision, which was at three weeks old, and they even did a follow-up to see if it had reattached and everything. And unfortunately, I think I had a call with you around this time where it had reattached. So they did it again and a week later I went to an ENT to get a second opinion because I didn't trust going back to the same person to tell me if it had reattached or not and the ENT said yeah, it's reattached again. So it reattached twice.
11:38
She was having these hour and a half long feeding sessions, not gaining weight. She was pooping about 14 times a day and we thought it was because of the antibiotics. But with that weight loss we had her evaluated with her pediatrician and she was just like super frosty all the time and they found blood in her diaper. So it turns out she's also milk, protein, and soy intolerant. So for me it's like, well, we were going to switch to just straight bottles because of you know I'm not being a latch correctly, and I was trying to reach out to myofascial, myofunctural therapists and you and try to get advice on how to make this breastfeeding thing work right now, because I do not have the patience to pump and go through that journey, I thought.
12:29
And then the cutting out the dairy and the soy was just one more thing to add on top of that, one more stressor of an already very hard journey, and I also was diagnosed with postpartum depression pretty intensely. So I was just all over the place having such a hard time and really the only thing that got me through it was just taking it day by day and saying there's an end in sight, I'm going to stop pumping. This is temporary. I have to just make it through one more week, two more weeks, so we can get some formula in and get her up and wait, like that was the most important thing to me. So she didn't like the hypoallergenic formula because it tastes terrible. So I continued pumping to try to like mix the two together.
13:18
But once she got used to the hypoallergenic formula and we switched her off the breast milk completely, but I still stayed pumping to be able to wean off of pumping and my supply had taken such a big hit, I figured I could wean pretty easily. But after I cut down to five sessions or so, I was still producing the same amount as I had been with the eight sessions, which was pretty awesome, but still hate pumping. It's horrible. And my daughter wasn't much better at bottle feeding, though, than breastfeeding either. So I was like well, I'll keep pumping and then she gets stronger, can breastfeed someday. Maybe it will be better than bottle feeding.
14:03
And she was on Nutramigen, the hypoallergenic stuff, and we tried a couple of different kinds, and she still was having bad symptoms on that. So after a month of just being on the formula full time, my supply was in a good place and I figured the dairy and soy were completely out of my system that I switched her back over to breast milk and she did so much better on it, like no gassiness, not much spit up at all. And I know Nutramigen has some trace of soy still in it and some milk, so I think we would have just had to put her on a higher-level hypoallergenic formula, and it might have fixed the issue.
14:45
But because I had already cut down to five pumping sessions and I was kind of not happy, but okay with that. I was like, all right, well, I'm just going to see how long I could just pump and if I continue having a good supply for her, I'll keep this going till she's six months old at best, because I'll be back to work and I won't be having to pump and take care of her at the same time. So it won't be so bad. I'll get her to that six month point and I'm done. I hate this, it's terrible.
15:16
And we're at eight months now and I'm still going. I'm now saying, all right, four more months till we're at a year and then I'm done.
15:25 - Avery (Host)
So there's lots of things that are little pearls in there. Was there a period of time where she was exclusively on formula, or you weren't giving her any of your milk at all? How long was she on formula exclusively?
15:43 - Kristin (Guest)
A month
15:43 – Avery (Host)
So, first off, let's just stop and celebrate that, because often when babies get to a point where they're exclusively on formula, that can cause the end of their intake of breast milk. That's usually the canary in the coal mine that we've gone down a pathway that is difficult to get back to a place where feeding breast milk is available, if that's important.
So, first off, I think it's really cool that you're sharing a story of how that's not always true that it's absolutely possible to both feed formula and then also come back to a place where you feed breast milk to. And the other part of that story that I think is really important to reiterate was that you dropped down pumping sessions, and it was probably the dropping down of the pumping sessions to a place that was sustainable for you. That's what let you keep pumping so that you could give your baby your milk.
16:42 - Kristin (Guest)
Yeah, giving myself a break, and I'd read that you know, stop stressing about it and probably produce more. And it's harder to actually act on that than just say, oh yeah, that probably makes sense.
16:55 - Avery (Host)
Yeah, it feels contrary to everything that we're told, because I think there's a big message that's like you, to make milk, you have to just pump all the time. So stepping back from that and saying, hey, what would happen if I actually pumped less is really scary.
17:09 - Kristin (Guest)
Yeah, it is even now, like even the five sessions. I've read that I could drop down four at this point, but I'm too scared to do it because now I want to keep going, whereas before I was just dropping them because I was like, oh, I'm done.
17:21 - Avery (Host)
Because so in your brain, you were actually dropping down to wean. Was that where your brain was headed with that? What made you change? What was the switch for you? That said you know what, maybe I'm not done.
17:34 - Kristin (Guest)
My daughter did so much better on the breast milk. And I mean the hypoallergenic stuff is definitely expensive too, but the formula, but just seeing how well she responded, once I tried giving her breast milk again and integrating that in instead of the formula full time and she just was a happier, better baby. And my husband even noticed it and I've been complaining to him all the time about pumping and wanting to stop and he's like which, stop, it's fine, like you should, formula is great. And I was like, yeah, okay, yeah, we're going to do this, we're going to switch to formula. But then once he saw the difference in her too, he now is like, yep, you got to keep pumping. And I am going to be more supportive of you now because I see how much better she's doing and that makes all the difference Happy wife, happy life, it's not that, its happy baby, happy family.
18:33 - Avery (Host)
And I want to talk about that for a second too, because you told me in your notes that you weren't very intuitive.
18:42 - Kristin (Guest)
Yeah, and I'm the one who actually, like, raised the red flag on her dairy soy tolerance too, and everybody is like no, that probably isn't it, but I was like no, this isn't normal.
18:54 - Avery (Host)
So maybe it isn't that we don't, we aren't, maybe that isn't that we've lost our intuition. Maybe it's that we've lost knowing what it looks like.
19:05 - Kristin (Guest)
Or yeah, I think that and, like I said, I don't trust myself, so trusting that I have that intuition or, you know, I have anything valuable to deliver with that intuition, to be right, I guess.
19:19 - Avery (Host)
Yeah. So that's more about trusting yourself to be right, and that's scary when it's a baby because it's one thing to be right about ourselves, because if we're wrong, like, I'll deal with it, but trusting ourself to be right about our baby, especially if we have a co-parent, that isn't trustful of us until they see what we see. So it sounds like your partner wasn't trustful of your thoughts until he experienced the same thing that you did.
19:49 - Kristin (Guest)
Yeah, and I have to say I have to give him credit for valid reasons. I'm always jumping to conclusions on what could be wrong because I try to find solutions Dr. Google doesn't guide me well and a lot of times I think, oh, it must be this. And at one point I thought our daughter must be autistic because I was looking at the early signs of autism and I was like, oh, these are her 100%, like we need to have her evaluated. That would really make sense as to why she's fussy all the time and the way she is. And so far, like luckily, she seems like she's okay and not that being autistic wouldn't be okay, but I think just me being paranoid about things and worrying about everything. That's why he was thinking oh, it probably isn't that.
20:39 - Avery (Host)
And that makes it hard. If you're always worried, then trusting yourself is tricky. That's a hard balance to find.
20:45 - Kristin (Guest)
Absolutely yeah.
20:46 - Avery (Host)
Yeah, I think that's such a cool story. And now you're pumping, and your plans are to pump for a to get to a year. Is that your plan? Yep, how are you making that work for you at work?
21:00 - Kristin (Guest)
It's very hard. My boss actually just had his second baby, so he's out on leave for 12 weeks, so I've had to take over his responsibilities in mind. Luckily I work from home, but my pumping schedule or whatever you call it I think that's another thing that I didn't understand before starting this journey is that you don't have to pump at the exact same time every day to keep your milk supply up, and with my son I was on a strict schedule where I had to pump at noon, eight noon and three, I think, were the times, and if I didn't, I just thought that things were going to go away and I would not be able to supply any milk anymore. So I've definitely had to be more flexible, like last night. My husband had a holiday party, so I ended up pumping way later in the night that I normally would, and I didn't pump in the middle of the night. So I got up today at like six and pumped, but then work got in the way and I didn't end up having my second pump until probably 11:30.
22:11
Normally, I would be closer to that, like 8am, then a new one, and then 2 and a 7pm pump, and so today I think I only have four pumping sessions, when I usually have five, and part of me is a little anxious like, oh, I'm just going to like just kill my supply, this what’s it's going to be. But I think I've just had to be extra flexible with my work schedule and like I said, I work from home. It's not that bad. I am so happy to be able to pump in my office and not have to worry about finding a room and putting in some parts in a communal sink, things like that. But still like it has been hard just scheduling it in.
22:53 - Avery (Host)
Yeah, and like I love that you mentioned flexibility. All of that was a pathway of your exploration with flexibility, has set you up for success a lot in this pathway.
23:17 - Kristin (Guest)
Yeah, yeah, definitely being open-minded and flexible almost out of necessity. I don't even have choice a lot of the time, it's just like survival. I guess something's got to give here.
23:31 - Avery (Host)
So if you had one final piece of advice for someone who has just had a baby or is pregnant, what would it be?
23:39 - Kristin (Guest)
I would say throw out your expectations, and when things don't go according to your expectations or your plan, it might not be the worst thing in the world, even though in the moment it feels like it. I thought my world was over because I wouldn't have that breastfeeding bond with my daughter. I was devastated because I had that with my son, but now I actually prefer to bottle feed her, even though at first, I hated it, and I'm able to bond with her on what I think is a deeper level, even with bottle feeding her, because I can nuzzle her to my face and cuddle her while feeding her bottle, and it's just so precious to me. And I have been able to bond where, as at first, I didn't think it was possible.
24:27 - Avery (Host)
I love that. So thank you so much for sharing your story with pumping and really speaking about your bond with her, because I think so many people feel like the only way to bond with a baby is with breastfeeding, and I think that we're told that that's the one of the magical things about breastfeeding, and it can be magical when you bond with your baby in those moments. But bottle feeding a baby can be magical too. It's really about that shared experience that you both enjoy at the same time, and not the physical act of what you're doing. It's enjoying the experience that you're sharing together.
25:06 - Kristin (Guest)
Yeah, I definitely think that's the truest statement about it that I've heard because there's something that everyone always says you should be able to bond with your baby, but then actually doing it and having that closeness is what brings about the bond, not the method of feeding.
25:25 - Avery (Host)
Yeah, that's amazing. So thank you for sharing your wisdom and your story with everybody listening, and for everyone listening in, thank you too, and make sure you subscribe to this channel and tune in again next week to hear another amazing parent share their wisdom too.
Do you have a story to tell? If your feeding experience has been transformative for you and you'd like to share it with others, then please let us know. We're always looking for new stories to let other people know what's possible. Just send your name in a short overview of your journey, or even just your words of wisdom for new parents to stories at nourishedyoung.com, and if you need support or want to connect with other parents who understand what you're going through, then make sure you head over to nourishedyoung.com and check out the Nourished Young Community so we can help support you and your journey too.