Ep 06: The Latching Journey: From Painful Tears to Intuitive Trust

Today I'm chatting with Katie, who shares her personal struggle with latching, and the frustration and tears which led to trusting herself.  We also shed light on the critical role of support systems and the overlooked aspects of breastfeeding, such as the implications of tongue ties on a child's development, and the damage caused by dismissive attitudes of medical professionals who lack understanding of common issues that new mothers face with breastfeeding.

Episode Highlights:
(0:01:45)  Katie shares how she experienced immediate pain with getting her baby to latch, and saw three different lactation consultants who gave the advice to "grab and squish" the breast with your hand and shove it in the baby's mouth

(0:07:36) We discuss the challenges encountered during breastfeeding, and why it's important to work with a lactation expert early in the process

(0:14:08) Katie's dedication to pumping for a year, and celebrating her personal accomplishments in feeding her baby, rather than adhering to the pressure of "breast is best"

Do you have a story to tell?
If your breastfeeding experience has been transformative for you and you'd like to share it with others, then please let us know! We're always looking for new stories to let other people know what's possible. Just send your name and a short overview of your journey, or even just your words of wisdom for new parents.

Also, if you need support and want to connect with other parents who understand what you're going through, check out the Nourished Young Community so we can help support you on your journey.

Visit www.nourishedyoung.com to learn more.

Transcript

Hi, I'm Avery Young and this is the Nourished Young Podcast. From the subway train to the soccer field, everywhere I go, people have a story to tell me about their experience feeding and caring for their new baby, and so I decided it was time to amplify those voices so we can all know what's real and what's possible and make those who are beginning their parenting journey feel a little less alone.

Avery: 

So today I'm going to be talking with Katie as she shares her story about her ups and downs with latching, what was hard, what helped her feel better, and where she hit roadblocks along the way.

Hi, Katie, and welcome to the Nourished Young Podcast. I am so happy to have you here.

Katie:

Hi, Avery. Thanks so much for having me.

Avery:

Yeah. So why don't you tell our listeners today a little bit about yourself? A little bit about your story?

Katie:

Yeah. I have been a teacher for my whole career, and then once I became pregnant with my first child, I was located in Atlanta, close to Avery and was seeing the Emory OB GYN practice. So I knew I was going to deliver at the Emory Hospital and signed up for Emory breastfeeding classes ahead of time. Took those, felt like I was super prepared to breastfeed, got a recommendation from my pediatrician like to see Avery if needed for lactation consulting, but was in the frame of mind was like, "I'm going to be fine. I've got this." Like if I need it, I'll make an appointment, but I'm just going to like go for it and see what happens.

So I delivered, everything was fine, but immediately had trouble with breastfeeding and immediate pain with the latch. And I saw I think two different, maybe three different lactation consultants while I was in the hospital, who gave me the advice of like grabbing the breast, squishing it with your hand and shoving it into baby's mouth.

So I tried to do what they told me to do, and that was pretty much the same advice I'd gotten in my breastfeeding classes. So went with that, but was not successful and tried to power through for probably a week and then pretty quickly identified like I definitely need some more help. So that was when I reached out to you and started working on how to actually latch successfully.

Avery:

Yeah. So obviously, I'll just say that I have a different approach to latching, which is not shoving or shaping at all. It's a gentle approach that really helps babies engage their reflexes. And can you talk to everybody listening about how different it felt for you, the difference in the feelings between the two approaches for latching?

Katie:

Definitely. I would say that I felt immediate relief once I was able to latch successfully, that I heard a lot from other moms and just in general reading on the internet that it can hurt for the first couple of seconds, or it'll hurt for weeks and then it'll be fine.

But once I actually learned how to approach with your reflex-based approach that it really doesn't hurt at all and it shouldn't if you're doing it the right way. So it definitely felt just... It took me a long time, I'll say, to master how to do it, and I had to continuously remind myself how to bring baby to the breast, how to not like force her onto the breast and let her tilt her own head on and open her mouth wide. But once I like did actually learn how to do that, that there was no pain, that it felt way more intuitive, felt more connected to my baby, didn't feel like a sense of dread in feeding my baby.

Avery:

Right? I think that's such an important thing to stop for a second and talk about, because I think that that is such a real feeling, like dreading feeling your baby. And the snowball about that is that you dread feeding them because it hurts. Like everybody would dread an experience that's painful and then you feel really guilty about like dreading feeding your baby, right? It doesn't just stop with the latch. It like goes between sessions.

Katie:

Totally. And especially in those early days and weeks when it's nonstop feeding pretty much, it definitely was so painful that I would have tears streaming down my face from the latch. And I would say, to begin with, those were totally just like tears of excruciating pain.

But then it did get to the point where when you're doing that every couple of hours nonstop for weeks, that then it was also some emotional tears of like, "I'm scared to do this. I don't want to feel this pain." But then also, as you mentioned, incredible guilt about not like I don't know, being successful in feeding your own child so very difficult.

Avery:

Yeah. And I think that it doesn't just stop like in childhood. I think what happens is lots of women get to the point where they physically and mentally can't handle the pain so they stop feeding, right? Because their body hits a wall where they can't go forward anymore. And then they feel really guilty for a long, long time about that choice, even though it was the right choice for them because they didn't see a pathway forward. Like the idea that you just waited out for some magical day for it to happen to stop hurting, like how long can you sit through that? They waited for a long time, and then we bury that trauma kind of deep inside of ourself.

That's really what prompted me to start this podcast is because going places and telling people like, "Oh, I help babies feed," and everybody had a story to tell, and I was like, "Wow, nobody tells my electrical engineering husband about the time they wired their computer as a kid," right?

Katie:

Right.

Avery:

It's because there wasn't a trauma response associated with that. And I think there's so much trauma associated with our inability to do what we perceive as success for our babies, that it just stays with us for such a long time. I don't think it ever goes away.

Katie:

Totally agree.

Avery:

Yeah. So yeah, I don't think it ever goes away. And I think that's what is so important to start talking about this and also so that we can all push back on that narrative that says like, "Oh, just wait one day until it stops hurting." Because that doesn't have to stay like that, like this is the change that we want to see.

And you said that you felt super prepared, so tell us about what you did to be prepared.

Katie:

Yeah. As I mentioned, I took a breastfeeding class that was several weeks. It was online since this was COVID time, so I didn't get in-person instruction, which maybe would've been beneficial. But I did multiple classes with a lactation consultant through Emory ahead of time, and then had read lots about breastfeeding, had talked to other moms about breastfeeding, and had talked to a lot of moms who had had trouble, too, and warned me that it could be really challenging, but still none of that prepared me for the real experience.

Avery:

Is there anything you think you could have done differently while you were pregnant that would have prepared you for the experience?

Katie:

Honestly, listening to a podcast like this probably would've helped, and I think having set up a lactation consultant appointment aside from what I had in the hospital would've been beneficial, just so I had something set up earlier and could have gone to see someone like immediately after getting out of the hospital or instead of waiting for the pain to really kick in.

Avery:

Yeah, to see if it hurt? Yeah, and I think that's a really good point, too, because I think people don't realize that a lactation consultant in the hospital has a very different skillset than a lactation consultant that works outside the hospital because lactation consultants in the hospital, their job is to help make sure that babies can feed for day one and day two, and then like they go home and they may have some outpatient at hospitals.

But people in hospitals are also often bound by what they can say based on hospital policies, right? And lactation consultants outside of the hospital may have access to a way different approach because they aren't bound by the same rules. They have a longer time, you get an hour with them. They have different skill sets. They're used to helping people from day two or even from birth because they may help with home births, but for a much longer period of time to kind of get a better idea of what works and what doesn't.

Katie:

Definitely. And on that same note, some of the people, the two women that I saw in the hospital, I asked them, I was like already starting to have some cracking and bleeding on my nipples, and I asked them, "What's going on with this?" And smooshed nipples, too, immediately, which definitely learned later from you that it was related to my baby's tongue tie and bad latch. But I asked them like, "This doesn't feel right. This doesn't look right. What do you recommend?" And pretty much just got no response. Like, "It's fine, carry on."

And then as soon as I saw you, you were like, "No, this is not fine. Here's what we can do about it."

Avery:

Yeah, that power through, right? Like power through, and if you can't power through, then you're a failure, I think, is that mentality that sort of has percolated down and it's so hurtful and harmful.

Katie:

It is.

Avery:

And I honestly think that if women didn't feel guilty about that because they do think that it's because they didn't try hard enough or they didn't push through hard enough or they weren't like strong enough, then we would all be grabbing angry pitchforks and running down to these places saying, "You have to do a better job of helping people." Because this isn't some sort of moral deficiency in all women. This is lack of support that's coming from the top in the places that are supposed to be helping us.

Katie:

Totally. And one piece of advice that you gave me when I first started seeing you that really stuck with me was you said that you had talked to lots of dog breeders and looked at like young dog mothers who were feeding their puppies, and that you got the response of like, "What would you do if your dog like had bleeding nipples?" And they're like, "Oh, we would never even get to that point. They would've been, like had all these treatments," blah, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, "Wow, like okay." Like this really kind of like changes my perspective a lot on my own feeding experience.

Avery:

Yeah. I think like it's so profound how much we've normalized women having damaged nipples that have blood associated with them.

Like imagine that as an evolutionary strategy, right? Like there is no way that anything anywhere would select for blood constantly every time you were feeding your newborn when you were in your most vulnerable state. Like that is a giant neon flag to every predator in a five-mile radius that's like, "Hey, now's a good time. Come on in," right?

Like this is not a thing and it's not a thing in any other mammal species, except for us. And so we need to step back and say, "Hey, why is that," instead of blaming, right? We're putting the blame on women for not being enough, instead of really stepping back and saying, "Hold on. Why is what we're doing not working? Like what's really the cause of that?"

Katie:

Right.

Avery:

Yeah, and it's interesting because I've read some articles, I did some talks on this, and like there was this big article that was like, "We don't really understand why latch pain happens."

Really? Because like there's biting. I mean, it seems to be pretty obvious to me that the reason that latch pain happens is because babies are biting our nipples when it goes into their mouth. Like how have they missed this memo?

Katie:

Totally, and just how strong their gums are, too. Even like, "Oh, they don't have teeth, like they can't hurt." But no, it is very strong.

Avery:

Yes, it can really hurt, right? Like if men had to feed babies, this would've been solved a long time ago.

Katie:

100%.

Avery:

So tell us about the tongue tie.

Katie:

Yeah. So tongue ties were something I had never even heard of until my baby was already born. And I had very briefly heard someone, a friend who's a midwife, mention tongue ties shortly after my baby was born, but really didn't think anything of it, did not think that this would've applied to me. And it was definitely just from you looking at the latch and looking at baby's mouth and tongue and cheek and, ultimately, she had like every part connected that wasn't supposed to be connected in her mouth and identifying it, that it opened my eyes to what this was and how much of an effect it can really have on feeding.

And then once we like delved more into it, you and I talked more about it, we had a dentist like do the de-connection, little frenectomy, and like my husband and I talked about it a lot more, we reflected on like his experience growing up and needing lots of speech therapy, and then we were like, "Wow, like did you have a tongue tie?" Like we know that could be passed down like this makes so much sense in a lot of ways, and definitely figuring it out, dealing with it totally changed my feeding experience.

Avery:

Did it help make your feeding experience better? Were you someone that had like the magical, like, this is way better right after? How did it work for you?

Katie:

Yes. I would say after the procedure, it did definitely improve my feeding experience. And luckily, the whole time she was able to get enough milk despite the ineffective latch. But it was definitely very painful for me before and did improve after the procedure.

Avery:

Good. So you got some resolution with your latch pain, but it didn't get completely resolved until after the release. Is that fair?

Katie:

Yes. I would say it definitely fully resolved after, although I definitely still had some challenges after because due to all the pain before I did some bottle feeding, like pumping and bottle feeding, just to give myself a break from the latch pain.

And then she got very hooked on the bottle, and then ultimately, like especially as she continued to get a little bit older, had some breast refusal issues with that. So ended up still doing a lot of pumping throughout the whole time, even though I would say the latch pain did improve after the frenectomy.

Avery:

How old was she when you had the breast refusal?

Katie:

I'd say it started when she was probably three, four months. And then it got really bad once I went back to work when she was five months, and then she pretty much completely rejected the breast around six months.

Avery:

So you stopped nursing her at six months?

Katie:

Yes. I continued to pump exclusively until she was one, and she was probably 60 to 75% breast milk-fed from when I went back to work until she was one. And then supplemented with formula because I just could not pump enough milk. There's not enough time in the day also.

Avery:

And also that is a very amazing way to feed a baby, right? Like I think I want to pause right there because now I hear in your voice a little bit of that like I couldn't do that, and yes, you could and yes, you did, right? You pumped for a year. You gave your baby what you've made, and then you fed your baby. Like that's amazing.

Katie:

Thank you. You're right.

Avery:

Yeah. So then at one year you stopped because pumping is a lot of work.

Katie:

It is so much work, so much cleaning. It's so hard on your breast, too. Even with the right flange size, it like causes so much chafing. And when she got to one, I just, "Okay, this is it. We're going to switch to cow's milk now."

Avery:

Yeah. And I think that's awesome. I love that.

That's the part that I think when we can stop blaming ourself, then we can step into this empowered place of celebrating what we could do and saying like, "Look what I did. Like I fed this baby the milk that I made for my body." I did a lot of work that I can celebrate, and however much I was able to do was enough. Like that was enough, full stop, right? It didn't need to be more, there wasn't another thing that I should have done. I did the right thing for my baby.

And now that Lira is 20 months old, tell us a little bit about where she is now.

Katie:

Yeah, absolutely. It's Lyra.

Avery:

Oh, thank you. Sorry.

Katie:

Yes, she is thriving. She's in preschool and loving it after a rough transition, but really enjoying it now, talking up a storm, running all over the place, very bossy, very headstrong little girl.

Avery:

So really, Lyra is doing great.

Katie:

She is doing great.

Avery:

And you guys are connected and bonded and all of the things.

Katie:

Totally, yes. Feeding her formula, pumping did not affect my connection with her like on an emotional mother-daughter relationship way.

Avery:

Yeah, good.

Katie:

Or it did affect it in a good way.

Avery:

Yeah. I mean, I think sometimes if feeding is really hard, then making a change is what lets us actually have that connection that we're seeking.

The difficulty prevents us from being able to connect because we're so overwhelmed with our experience in that moment that we think that this is the way forward, when really there may be a different way forward that actually ends at a better place. It's just hard to see it.

Katie:

Definitely.

Avery:

So if you could go back and do anything differently, would you do it differently now in hindsight?

Katie:

That's a great question. I think the only thing that I really would've done differently in a way that I could have foreseen something is, just as I already said, to have an appointment with a lactation consultant earlier.

But looking back on it, there's just no way that I could have predicted that she was going to have tongue tie issues, that I was going to have breast refusal issues. So no, I don't think, in the grand scheme of things, I would've done anything differently.

Avery:

Or the things that you would've done differently might not have helped with where you ended up anyway, right?

Katie:

Right. Definitely.

Avery:

Yeah. I think like our brains are so funny because our brains are so good at like worrying about things, but not actually being able to see like there's any other different like reality that we could have ended up.

And that's the thing with the prep is that most of the courses and most of the classes are always built on best case scenario. And I think they don't want to say the hard things because they're afraid that if they like tell women that it's hard, then women won't do it.

Katie:

That's so true. And I was definitely in a like OB GYN practice and at a hospital that was very breast-is-best-focused, which is fantastic in so many ways and I like totally support feeding breast milk if you can and able and want to. But it does, it is also very challenging for turning people like making people uncomfortable with breastfeeding or scaring them away from it if they're trying to like force it on people.

Avery:

Yeah. I actually think the idea of breast is best is harmful.

Katie:

Yeah.

Avery:

Because I think it actually goes back to an idea that we don't trust women and we don't trust that women would innately want to feed their baby breast milk because like without it being best, like just trust women that they would if they could. And if they don't instinctively feel that way, then it's not the right pathway for them because they can't, for whatever reason.

And if we just trust them and support them and make that accessible for them, then we don't have to tell them it's best because they already know. And then the women that can't or don't or are in so much pain don't carry the guilt of not giving their baby the best, whatever that is, for the rest of their life.

Katie:

Yes. It feels very judgmental if you can't do exclusively breast milk or exclusively just feed for it.

Avery:

Yeah, or any of it, right? What if there is no best? Like the only best is the way that allows that family to move forward in a place that feels supported and connected and heard, right? That is best.

Katie:

Totally. That is best, for sure.

Avery:

Well, thank you so much for talking with me today, for sharing your story and your experience with new parents.

And as we wrap this up, if you have one final piece of advice for folks listening right now, what would it be?

Katie:

Thinking about where I am right now in toddlerhood and also how that kind of relates to the newborn era, I would say my piece of advice is to really be proud of and enable your baby's independence. Like I'm thinking of right now in my day-to-day life, like watching my daughter spend five minutes trying to put her pants on, like taking them on and off, putting one foot in, putting another foot in whatnot, and me being there like really wanting to control the situation and just put them on for her and get out the door, but then second back and be like, "No, she's not asking for help. She's not frustrated. She's just practicing this over and over again. I need to let her be independent and do this."

And I think that actually that same mentality applies and would've been helpful for me to really appreciate earlier on in my feeding journey. Because you showed me just how independent newborns are from day one in feeding themselves essentially, getting to the breast and opening their own mouths and finding the breast, moving their head, opening wide, and then leaning into the breast and latching successfully. And if I hadn't tried to just force my breast onto her and manipulate it in a way that I thought was right that she maybe it would've been, and I would've been more successful, really wrong.

Avery:

I think that is brilliant words of wisdom. And it's also so hard to do, right? Like you could just tie the shoe for them, but like letting them do it is the hardest part of being a parent is letting your kids do the things even when it's hard, right?

Katie:

Exactly. It is very tough.

Avery:

Well, thanks again for joining us today. I really appreciated having you on.

Katie:

Thank you. It's been a pleasure talking with you.

Do you have a story to tell? If your feeding experience has been transformative for you and you'd like to share it with others, then please let us know. We're always looking for new stories to let other people know what's possible. Just send your name in a short overview of your journey, or even just your words of wisdom for new parents to stories at nourishedyoung.com, and if you need support or want to connect with other parents who understand what you're going through, then make sure you head over to nourishedyoung.com and check out the Nourished Young Community so we can help support you and your journey too.