Ep. 15: Trusting the Vote - how technology can help increase faith in election outcomes

In this episode, Ellen and Joe speak with Dr. Shawn Healy (01:57) of iCivics about what the Electoral College is, why the Founders created it, and why it's so dang confusing to many Americans. Next, we have a very interesting conversation with Gregory Miller (07:51), the COO and co-founder of the Open Source Election Technology Institute - a non-partisan non-profit 501(c)(3) public benefit corporation headquartered in Silicon Valley. Gregory’s passion for defending democracy is rooted in a rich history as a 1st generation American, with a family journey escaping Nazi-Germany, immigrating to the U.S., becoming citizens, with family members serving the U.S. Military (Navy, Marines) in both NGO and enlisted capacities through the end of the Vietnam war. Greg talks about the strengths of our system of elections and how emerging technologies can make our elections even more safe and secure. Lastly, we speak with Marine Corps veteran Cole Lyle, who serves as the executive director of Mission Roll Call - a nonpartisan movement providing veterans with a powerful, unified voice that is heard by our nation’s leaders and communities.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

In the media, if it bleeds, it leads. And so it's always the edge cases that get all the scope of attention. And unfortunately, people take that, they socialize it through social media, and it gets distorted, and somehow you suddenly believe that every single one of the 10,000 jurisdictions across 3,300 counties in 50 states and five territories are corrupt. And it is hogwash. It's bull. It's not true. The staff, the professional staff there are nonpartisan because they're professional staff and they are patriotic in the best way that I personally, for over 17 years, have witnessed. Are there people who are going to challenge stuff? Are there people who can go rogue? Well, unfortunately, you've seen that. Is there an opportunity in 24 for some serious infection of the operations with people who maybe have alternative agendas? Frightfully, yes. But on the whole, the people here are good.

SPEAKER_05 0:54

Welcome back to the Vetted Conversations Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Where we delve into the foundations, workings, and current challenges to the American way of self-governance.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

In today's confusing world, it's more important than ever to understand how our government works and how we, as citizens, can actively participate in the discussion, to safeguard our liberties, and continue freedom.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Our mission is to ensure you, our listeners, have the knowledge and insights needed to become more informed and engaged citizens and active members of your community. So let's get into it. Based on your feedback, we are adding a short civics discussion to the front of each episode to help better explain how our government is organized and how it's designed to work so that we all can more effectively engage with our elected and appointed officials to help create a more perfect union. Joining us today is Dr. Sean Healy, a civics expert and the senior director for policy and advocacy at iCivics. And he's going to answer the question: what is the purpose of the Electoral College in the U.S. presidential elections?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

So our framers of the Constitution were very concerned about the excesses of democracy and took several steps in our Constitution to basically put a layer between the people and our government and our elected officials. So they created this what they considered a deliberative body called the Electoral College. So this layer between the popular vote and the presidency. They once again involved states. So states are vital to the design of our constitution. So states are represented in that electoral college. Every state has two senators, right? So every state gets two electoral votes and then one electoral vote for each member of Congress. Of course, our smallest states have only one member of Congress. Some of our larger states have dozens of members of Congress. So states have different electoral vote calculations. And then our framers delegated to Congress, or excuse me, to states the ability to determine how those electoral votes are awarded. If you fast forward to present day, almost every state, in fact, 48 states, whatever state wins the popular vote ultimately gets those electoral votes for the state. In the case of Nebraska and Maine, those votes are awarded by congressional districts. So the winner of the state gets two electoral votes. Nebraska has three congressional districts, so each congressional district has one electoral vote. One electoral vote. So if you go to, for example, the 2020 election, former President Trump won Nebraska, won two of the congressional districts. So Trump gets four electoral votes. Of course, that's uh less of an issue uh nowadays. Um of the critiques uh of the electoral college, of course, is we we we have had uh five instances in our history where a candidate wins the popular vote but loses the electoral vote in a couple times very recently, right? In 2000, uh 2016, uh where that is the case. So there have been efforts, there have been debates about uh whether the electoral college is a relic of the past. It certainly in the the modern vernacular benefits the Republican Party over the Democratic Party, and that's just because of how uh party supporters are distributed, but uh uh rural states, uh particularly in the nation's interior, have disproportionate representation in that electoral college uh because of the two senate uh the two Senate issue. So uh there are some structural advantages in the modern uh vernacular for for Republicans. Um and uh last part I'll say is if the the defenders of the electoral college, even in a modern context, uh, are concerned that if we would do away with it, uh we we would uh this would be less of a national campaign, probably be much more focused on uh major metropolitan areas. The detractors come back and say, hey, 2024 election, for example, we're focused on six or seven states, probably, right? So there's 43 states that we're already writing off. There's only about 10 or so states that have been competitive this century. Um so it it it really has narrowed the scope. But uh I think it is right if we would uh go with just a sheer popular vote. Some of those states uh probably wouldn't be as prominent, right? So uh Wisconsin is going to be the center of the universe in this this coming year. The Republican convention is there, it was the tipping point state in 2020. I doubt Wisconsin gets as much as much attention uh if if we go just on the basis of the popular vote.

SPEAKER_05 6:14

Okay, so so what I hear is that you know we're voting for candidates, but in effect we're what we're really doing is voting for electors who will carry that that that consensus to Congress and hopefully cast their votes in accordance with the will of the people from the state which they represent.

SPEAKER_01 6:35

Right. So yeah, there are different slates of electors uh at the state level. Whoever wins that state, uh those electors ultimately meet in December uh and they and they send those votes uh to Congress, and Congress uh ultimately certifies that vote in January a couple weeks out before uh the presidential inauguration. Uh for the most part, electors are faithful. Uh there have been some cases in recent years where a handful of called unfaithful electors where uh they kind of go their own way. Uh but because these are slates and they're often slates of uh party faithfuls, uh there's there's very little of that. So um there was certainly more autonomy uh in the past, and I think the dis by design, uh, but but as I said, in the the modern context, those 48 states uh basically direct the the popular vote winner of that state uh to vote for for the the winning candidate, and then some variability in in Maine and and uh Nebraska.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

Awesome. Well, thanks for that. I really appreciate it. Welcome back. I'm your host, Joe Plensler, and today we're diving into a topic that impacts every voter: election security. With technology advancing at lightning speed and new threats emerging every day, how do we ensure our elections remain fair and free from interference? From cyber threats to misinformation campaigns, securing our elections is more critical and more challenging than ever before. Today, election security expert and military family member Greg Miller, one of the co-founders of the open source election technology institute, joins Ellen and me to discuss. So let's get started and unravel the complex world of election security.

SPEAKER_00 8:19

Greg, thanks so much for joining us. Um, it's always fun to hear that someone that's coming uh to talk to us has some military connection, especially for me as a military spouse. Can you um tell a little bit about your American story and especially how it ties into your connection as a military family member?

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Uh sure. It's kind of a multifaceted story, and thank you so much for having me. We we are huge fans of your organization and what you folks are doing. Um yeah, my story is sort of divided between my parents' um horrific journey from Germany to get here. I I have to say that I haven't been real comfortable telling that story um until people have been urging me and coaching me that it's time for me to start doing that. Um and so I'm always like, oh yeah, somebody put that in the bio someplace, because you kind of caught me off guard, Ellen, when you mentioned that you'd read about it. Um so uh, you know, the real quick side of there is that uh uh I I am uh the son of uh of of German immigrants uh in 38 and 39. Um my late parents uh were Holocaust survivors. Um my father's family was Jewish, my mother's family was Catholic. Uh I like to tell people we know guilt like bow nose football. Um but uh uh it was a it was a very difficult journey for my father's family. Um I only recently learned that uh that my my mother's family made it out through thanks to Eleanor Roosevelt, uh, who had a friend uh in the U.S. Embassy in Paris that made possible uh my mother's family, the Lufquis uh passage back. Uh and for my father, um they had already been here in the United States and had gone back to Germany. Um so it was their second immigration. Unfortunately, they had some people that made it possible for them to get in here. But as you all know, uh thanks to Charles Lindbergh and others, it was very difficult for um Jewish immigrants, uh any immigrants from Germany at that time. Um I my father was very much a patriot. He was incredibly pleased and happy to have made it to the United States and uh to have survived, uh, having lost his father uh and two brothers who were interned at Dachau and then ultimately uh uh went to uh were transferred to Nuremberg. Um so he was very lucky to get his his his mother out and and a sister. Um and so he's a big patriot. And so when my brother came along, who was was older than me, 12 years older than me, um uh post-World War II, um pushed him to, you know, to serve, which he was excited to do. Uh my brother actually started out in in the Navy. Uh he was on USS Blueback um uh and then uh spent some time tooling around the North Pole and the Nautilus, and then uh went to Cal Berkeley uh as Vietnam was breaking out. Uh he had an F card, so he should have had no reason to go back in. But um uh some things happened uh with a with a girlfriend who was caught up with uh a group called the Weathermen. Uh and he took the fall for that incident and said, It was my fault. And uh they said, Great, oh, we see you've been in service before. So uh they said, you know, we're not gonna prosecute you, we're just gonna throw you back in. He said, Great. Uh what do you want to do? Uh he paused thinking about it, and they said, Okay, we'll decide for you. Uh, and next thing my brother knew was he was learning how to land uh aircraft on a painted uh uh deck on the Alameda Air Naval Station uh in East Bay before he would be deployed uh to the Coral Sea. So my brother flew out of the U.S. as Coral Sea uh early on and then was transferred over to uh the Essex, uh CVA 9, and then the Yorktown. So he was part, technically part of the Tonkin Gulf Yacht Club uh in Vietnam. Um 16th of April 72 was a day I'll never forget. Uh my brother was back on the Coral Sea. Uh they flew like six dozen sorties um out of Hai Pong um covering for uh B-52s uh when he lost most of his his command there, most of his planes, and he was ultimately shot down. Uh was POW MIA and came wandering back in 1975, um after the baby lift out. So a long, long journey there. And thank you for letting me share that story. I don't get to share it too often, and that took up a lot of time, but so that's my connection. My mother begged me not to go in because I was going right after my brother. I wanted desperately to fly. Um, and uh she uh she talked me uh talked me out of it and said, you know, finish college, do the right thing. Um so uh did get back.

SPEAKER_05 12:37

It's amazing he went from being a submariner to a surface warfare.

SPEAKER_02 12:41

Um is that is that not diversity, right?

SPEAKER_05 12:44

Yeah, I mean well definitely uh mobility within the within the um the service, right, within the Navy. Um but I think I think you're um you bring up a good point and something that Ellen and I talk quite a bit about is that there's many ways to serve our country. You know, a lot of times we hear about service and people think of the military. And as a veteran, I I like to try to adjust that thinking a little bit and say, well, you know, don't our police officers serve our country? Don't our school teachers and librarians serve our country and communities? And they absolutely do. Amen. So, you know, this may be a good segue into the open source election technology institute and why you decided to create this. I understand you're the co-founder. Could you give us a little bit of that origin story?

SPEAKER_02 13:26

Yeah, so it that you know, you you nailed it spot on about the service and how you serve. Uh, and this is kind of a tribute to my to my late parents. Um, you know, the the mission of the the OSET Institute, which does stand for open source election technology, um, is to increase confidence in elections and their outcomes uh in defense of democracy uh as a matter of national security. That's the mission statement, cold. Um we got started in 2006 when uh post Netscape, I was uh in a venture capital firm, and we discovered that um the commercial industry for producing election administration technology was really messed up. Uh and this is in 2006. Um we right away identified that it had was a highly concentrated industry with literally no commercial incentive whatsoever to produce the kinds of innovations we need to have an infrastructure uh that can achieve something called the vast mandate. Um for elections officials, so you know an election is said to be trustworthy if and only if it is verifiable, accurate, secure, and transparent in process. If those four corners test is true, then you have the grounds for a trustworthy election. The hardware and software that comprises voting machinery today can barely meet two of those legs. Barely. We had a lot of learning from our experience at Apple, Netscape, Sun Microsystems, um, Google, the companies where all of us came from that formed the OCID Institute in 2006. And the reason, Joe, we we formed it was we weren't going to succumb to the same problems of the commercial sector. If you came to me as a venture capitalist in 06 and said, I have a great idea for a truly vast voting system, would you fund my startup company to do it? There's no way we would touch that. It's a terrible business opportunity, right? Let's face it, the US market for this stuff in totem is about$330 million a year. Globally, it's about$3 billion. But um, gosh, pardon my phraseology here, but it's mouse nuts for for it for institutional venture capital. It just doesn't even move a needle. And yet, I think, as you and I have talked about in the past, Joe, this is critical democracy infrastructure. I mean, okay, so it's a small, tiny niche industry, but what we're talking about something really important. And so at that point, we said, you know what, we learned a lot in in our careers in the tech sector and the commercial sector about the value of public technology, open source. And that's what triggered us to get to get started. Um, so really it's about catalyzing uh infrastructure improvements where it's not commercially feasible to do so. And then there's a fan family legacy purpose, frankly. Um, I get a little bit choked up talking about this, so I'll make it brief. But having finally got the stories from my parents about what they went through and what they witnessed, my dad's family was ripped apart. His father was a supporter of the Browns. They actually thought that the Browns were giving everybody work, that things were going great. It was, you know, we're protecting our borders, building this infrastructure, and they did not see frog in the boiling pot, what was happening around them with the rise and change of the Megnomaniac Aldof Hitler. The point was there was what seemed like a reasonable government, and we what they watched it collapse and implode on itself and turn into an autocracy when everybody kept saying, no, no, no, don't. You know what? The guy bloviates, just don't worry about his shouting, just really worry about what he actually does. And nobody believed that Hitler was going to be a problem, including my grandfather, until it was too late.

SPEAKER_03 16:57

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Um, and by the way, as you know, it wasn't just the Jews because my my mother's family was Catholic and they realized they had to get out and they flipped the keys to their to their uh uh plants to uh to other friends to continue the work and they left.

SPEAKER_05 17:09

Yeah, uh in 2015, um I I was I took uh some uh colleagues to the Holocaust Museum and there's newsreels of a certain Austrian corporal, former corporal, who's leading Germany up on the the lectern screaming about making Germany great again. Um, and I I took notice of that uh in 2015, 2016 timeframe. It was interesting. Yeah. Um when we talk about like the state of American elections, like where are we today?

SPEAKER_02 17:42

So, you know, when I look at the current state of American elections, I like to go back to what we use here as the five Ps ecosystem of democracy administration. So the five P's are people, process, platform, policy, and politics. Okay. So if we look at it from there, there's we have massive trust issues with the platform. You know, it's an aged out vulnerable infrastructure, and it works so long as the physical security, uh the physical perimeter security is in place. Um we saw that in Coffee County get dissolved. Um there's other equally massive issues with people and process, right? Um and then you have this hyperpartisanship and loss of focus um that's ended up, you know, it's completely up-ended policy and and and and uh and the politics are what they are. So all that said though, after 17 years of of the OCID institute, uh I can tell you that elections are sound, reliable, and as far as we know, they haven't been compromised. I'm I'm happy to talk about the as far as we know part, but um they have not been compromised. That's where we are too.

SPEAKER_00 18:53

So it's amazing to hear someone who's sitting, you know, uh behind the scenes understanding deeply the technology, it's interesting to hear you say that there are deep challenges, and yet it seems like what you're also saying is that there are enough checks and balances that despite those challenges, our elections are still secure.

SPEAKER_02 19:13

Yeah, and I like to put it in the analogy of an automobile, right? You know, so we're we're American election infrastructure uh is a 67 valiant driving in an age of cars with automatic brakes and uh far more powerful engines and and all that, right? And so you know you have a good handbrake uh and you use it when you have to, but but uh that that Dodge Valiant is can still get along. The question is, at what point does antiquity become obsolescence? And that's where we are now.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:42

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, I sat down through our county's refresher training for uh election officials because we're you know, our elections are coming up for the primaries on Tuesday. And so there were about 80 citizens there, about half of them were veterans or military family members. And as our county registrar was going through the refresher training. Pressure training on the processes and procedures, it was almost like what was ringing in the back of my head was military general orders, like take charge of this post and all government property and be in view, being general order number one. You know, to walk my post in a military manner, being always on the alert. I mean, you know, like these things that that are drilled into us, um, you know, you talk about physical security. I mean, that that's very much a huge imperative to have like two-party integrity around every piece of voting equipment to make sure that no one person is ever left alone with anything in the in in the polling station. Um, but I think what what the value I see, especially in technical solutions, is that human beings are are frail, right? We're flawed, uh, we have perception gaps, and that's where we can leverage um advanced technologies to help make things even better, right? Not that it's so terrible now because it's it's working and functioning and it's safe and secure, but like like how can we leverage technology to improve and learn and grow?

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Sure. And and I I gotta say that, you know, I'd love to talk more about the process and protocol that you go through because this goes back to you know what we've spoken about before, the the notion of critical democracy infrastructure, the critical infrastructure designation, people recognizing that voting equipment amounts is tantamount to national security operating assets, which, oh wow, that means that people who are operating those machines are operators of national security uh assets. And so there should be process and protocol around that that takes a discipline, a regiment. Um, you know, I'm a small single engine pilot, and and you know, we go through steps every time we prepare that plane to get off the ground. I've had people say, why are you doing that? You know, it's like six o'clock in the morning, and it's like because you do these things every time for a reason, because that consistency is what is what you know breeds the safety of it. You mentioned physical perimeter, and I just want to say that this is our biggest problem now, right? Is that after Coffee County, after actually four other counties across the country, where we had elections officials go rogue, flip the keys to an unauthorized individual who came in and took that equipment out of those physical warehouses to hotels to disassemble them, image the discs, and then publish that information on the dark web. WTAF, as my friend's son would say. I mean, this is crazy. And so now, what does that mean? Well, what it means is I now have an easy way to go construct a vector, a piece of malware that I could mount on a on a di on a USB stick, right? And just just like Stuxnet, if I now have an individual who's got the right coat and the right looking badge and the right, maybe even AI robot call to get authorization to get into that building. Now, once I've plugged that stick into that machine, I'll bets are off.

unknown 22:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:43

So we can't stop the stick, but we can stop the access. And and so so really it's about it's about that physical, physical perimeter, and and folks like yourself understand that better than anybody.

unknown 22:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Um let me get back to your question, which was you know, how do we how do we how do we grow and improve this? Um you know, look, this is worth an entire conversation alone, but at a high level, I think there's four things. I think we properly have to fund research and development, right? If this equipment is national security assets of a critical infrastructure, the federal government should stop pumping money into ad hoc little programs that they dill out to the states with all kinds of strings about, you know, how you can do anything you want with the money, and actually set aside a federal research and development fund, either at DARPA or at uh or at NSF or someplace to allow the kinds of work that we and about five dozen other projects around the country are undertaking to get to a better place with the technology. Second thing is we have to embrace transparency in that infrastructure. Transparency builds trust, right? And which actually I should say transparency builds belief. You know, I like to tell people that trust is what black box proprietary systems demand. Belief is what glass box open systems delivers. So that transparency quotient. Number three, I think, um, is really properly implementing the critical infrastructure designation that Secretary J. Johnson did under a prior administration, the Obama administration, just before it was transferred over to Trump. Uh it was an agency designation, though, from DHS. Not nearly as strong as codifying it in six USC. And so on our government relations side of our work, we're big proponents of codifying this designation. And why is that important? Because if that's important, then we can begin treating elections professionals like they should be treated, as licensed professionals. We can pay them properly, we can train them properly, and then I'm hoping that folks like your organization can begin to see that as their next career. Um finally, I think we have to evolve uh, and this goes a follow-on for number three is I think we have to evolve election administration into a licensed profession. I mean, today we're counting on uh poll workers and a vault as a volunteer core that are basically seasonal workers, right? And then you've got another core of people who supervise them who are more staff. We have got to upgrade that. Now there's efforts underway to teach people the things they need to do to become an election professional, but we think it should go further. We should there think there should be a certification process, there should be a licensing process, and they should be paid for that accordingly. What's happening now, and this is really important, for a major news platform, we're just finishing a 50-state study of every single county's election worker turnover and the cause of that turnover and who's replacing them. I got some really scary news for you.

SPEAKER_00 25:28

Yeah. Yeah, that's that's something we're really passionate about with some of our work um on our in our vet the vote coalition is that you know we're trying to build new norms, um, not only for the volunteer poll workers who who come out you know year on year to do this important job, but also for the the staff. There should be a better pipeline, sort of we're we're calling it sort of service to service. How do you get people that leave the military to do these really important, more local civic jobs um because they require the kind of discipline and training?

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Absolutely. Boy, I'll tell you, and if if if we weren't so wrapped around the axle of what we're doing with technology here, I would be throwing every ounce of resource we had behind you to make that happen. Because if there is a soft spot, if there's a a blind spot, Joe, in this place, in the in the people process, platform policy politics, it's the people quotient. And we're not good social engineers. But lastly, I wanted to point out that on the growth and learning side, I think we need to implement process audits. And we should mandate post-election risk limiting audits for the ballots. But another thing that's not talked about much is process audit. There should be a process by which we conduct an audit of how everything was handled all the way through. What was the providence and stewardship of the ballots? What were all the steps that were taken? Because this is the attack vectors for people who are either don't trust elections or are mendaciously trying to get misinformation injected into conversation by attacking the process, right? Oh, those weren't candies, they were USB sticks. Oh, those weren't ballots from the mail service, those were stuffed ballots that were injected in the system. That crap's got to stop.

SPEAKER_05 27:05

Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 27:06

Yeah. Yeah, because like the four main pieces of equipment that are in a polling station for anyone who's never really paid attention to that, you know, is the poll book. So when you check in, the computers by which you look up to see whether someone's registered with the county as a voter, um, and if their address matches their ID and so on and so forth, right? And it and if they voted before in that election, right, because it will show up if they voted by absentee ballot and sent one in, or they voted in early voting, you know, it will account for that, right? The second thing is uh if in some um counties have ballot marking devices, if people don't want to sit down and fill in the the number two pencil or you know, hand mark the ballot. Yeah. Um and then some counties just use that that ballot marking device for people with disabilities and so on and so forth. The third thing is the actual ballot counting machine, like that little R2D2 looking like thing where you feed your ballot in that tabulates things and prints out the report and collects the paper ballot. And then the fourth thing is the internal um off-internet network that rides on its own system uh with military grade encryption to talk back to the county office. So those are like the four main technological systems I'm aware of. I'm curious though, like, is there anything out there that's new? I mean, we're hearing about blockchain technology, we're hearing about all sorts of things. And when you look at financial services, you know, trillions of dollars every year are transmitted electronically across billions of transactions uh through secure means. So is there a way that maybe one day we'll vote on our phones safe and securely or deployed military members from the far edges of the frontier, like you know, pull out a you know, a cell phone or a sat phone and and vote that way?

SPEAKER_02 28:42

Well, uh yeah, so uh a day wouldn't go by properly if I'm not asked that question. So thank thank you for making sure today's consistent with all the others. Um so a couple a couple things. Um I believe that military and overseas voters are a different cat class of voters, and their special circumstances, especially in theater, demand that they have opportunities. Look, they're they're willing to risk flaw live bullets, they might they should be able to risk live ballots. Um and so I think that the proving ground for digital technologies that's that surround the transaction of a ballot, um, that's that's where the military and theaters where that where that should happen first. Secondly, let me just say that there is no technology infrastructure today that can safely, securely do that and achieve the vast mandate. There's no way today to do that. Um, there are opportunities in the future. We've got some classified work underway here that suggests there is a possibility in the future. Um I'm willing to tease that out in a moment, but I can't say too much about it. Um but what I do want to say to you, and Joe, this is this is really important because you're very good at telling the story about financial transactions and what's the difference. And the difference is huge. Okay. So the thing with financial transactions is we have this concept of repudiation, right? So I have I have to have the ability to prove that I did not authorize that transaction and back it out and have her and have my bank cover the the illegal illicit charges on my card, right? Okay, right? Ballots don't get a mulligan. There is no non-repudiation under the American system of elections. My ballot must be absolutely anonymized and absolutely secret. There has to be no way that I can ever connect Ellen with her ballot across the cloud. And today, that is technologically impossible. And so that's what's holding us up on getting to the smartphone voting. Now that said, um I'm I'll tease a project I would love to see properly funded here. We have an engineer here who has actually stumbled upon a way to possibly do this. My clue to you, my hint to you will be it's hardware. It won't be done in pure software. And so you say, Well, gosh darn, I have my phone. That isn't that the hardware? And I will tell you, no, that's not it. And then if you want to push me, I'll say, I want you to think the next time you go to your favorite sandwich stand, food truck, or restaurant, and they have a way of taking payment digitally with their phone. Think about how they do that when you hand over your card. And now you're on to the pathway that we may have in the future. And I've said more than I can about that topic. Okay. What other innovations are happening here? Um, so here at the OSAT Institute, we're working on something called trusted boot with hardware attestation. I need a way to be able to prove that the hardware is secured and hasn't been touched. And we need to be able to do that so that we can use off-the-shelf hardware to keep the cost down. I mean, let's face it, we're gonna build custom foundries to ensure that the avionics in an F-35 are not born of Asian components. We can afford to do that because that's what's at risk, at stake in an F-35. You're not gonna build custom hardware for voting machines, although it's critical infrastructure. So, what we have done and what and what is the state of the art right now that we're working on is this concept of having a device that can actually test the hardware before it's activated or put into service. Now you work in a point place, so you know what LAT is. And you you know that that that you know the the logic testing, logic and accuracy testing goes before you start any election process. Well, imagine if you had a key that hung about your neck that had a biometric authenticator on it that allowed you to plug into a device and verify that that device had not been compromised and was ready to be loaded with its software for today's action. Yeah. That is how you start getting to a more secure process. We're working on that one. Um I would argue that the ElectOS architecture, right? The flagship project of the Trust of Vote project is something called ElectOS. ElectOS is for voting machines, what Android is for smartphones. That's what the ElectOS project is about. You mentioned blockchain. As long as we're not talking about transacting ballots, sure. Sure. Digital ledgers are critically important to basically produce evidence of lots of things, like blockchains for voter registration records, blockchains for um all EMS transactions. So blockchain technology, or what we call digital ledgering, has a lot of upside uh here. And we have built a project that we've shown SISA that actually is called Vanadium, which is a prophylactic for voter registration databases, those that were compromised uh in 1617. Um so blockchain has a role, not transacting ballots yet. Uh finally, I would say, believe it or not, artificial intelligence. Um we have a big project here on AI, generative AI for positive use. Um the quickest example I can give you is an infinitely scalable call center replacement for elections officials. Um an agent we're building called Ella. Um and Ella will have a conversation with you about any question you have about elections, flagging those things that sound a bit uh potentially as disinfo or misinfo, and correct you. So trusted boot, the ElectOS architecture, blockchain for ledgering, and AI are the four things that we see as new innovations.

SPEAKER_05 34:20

Yeah, super exciting. Super exciting stuff. And I just saw in Stars and Stripes earlier this month that there's a DARPA funded project. There's a prototype going out of a deployable voting machine unveiled uh to the National Association of Secretaries of State. It was presented to um a couple weeks ago. So uh somewhere the military in DARPA is taking a look at using some sort of technology to help deploy service members of vote. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:46

Joe, our CTO is on that project. Got it. Okay. So it's called the SIF project.

SPEAKER_00 34:52

Okay, so you guys are so you guys are totally nerding out about technology for voting, which is incredibly important in our current um, you know, how how every state obviously votes differently, uses different machines, um, and and and and that and that's accord that's how it's supposed to be according to the constitution. Um but what one thing that I'm interested in is that, you know, in general, even someone like you who has a a deeper, deeper understanding of the challenges to the machines and the you know and and and how the economics are playing into it, which make total sense. I mean, who has the who who has the incentive to to play in this very tiny market? But you know, what's your sense of the people? Because that's the other side of it, as you said. You you said the people can be in many ways problematic, and you've given examples of stolen machines and bad bad behavior. But across the American election system, what is your general sense of the people, the humans who who who execute it?

SPEAKER_02 35:51

You know, thank you for asking that, Ellen, because one of the things that we've done at the OCID Institute over the 17 years of our existence and the 70 people that we have is that all of us, all of us volunteer and work in polling places in order to truly understand the technology engineering tasks that we have at hand. I have walked polling places for years. I have sort of witnessed that whole infrastructure people. Here's one thing I am absolutely convinced of we have some incredibly loyal patriots trying their damn best to do the right thing all over this country. And they're unfortunately in the media, if it bleeds, it leads. And so it's always the edge cases that get all of the scope of attention. And unfortunately, people take that, they socialize it through social media, and it gets distorted, and somehow you suddenly believe that every single one of the 10,000 jurisdictions across 3,300 counties in 50 states and five territories are corrupt. And it is hogwash. It's bull. It's not true. The staff the professional staff there are nonpartisan because they're professional staff and they are patriotic in the best way that I personally, for over 17 years, have witnessed. Are there people who are gonna challenge stuff? Are there people who can go rogue? Well, unfortunately, you've seen that. Is there an opportunity in 24 for some serious infection of the operations with people who maybe have alternative agendas? Frightfully, yes. But on the whole, the people here are good. What I want to see is more of that systemically through, professionalize and certify the professionals, bring in the vets. I personally think that that there is a tremendous, you know, post-service, first service opportunity as deploying into election administration is a second one. You know, I've I've talked with military folk, and and Joe, you and I have talked about this. You have to do that right. You have to do that delicately. You know, you're not going to come in wearing your fatigues. Um, you don't have to, right? But there is a post-military service opportunity here, and I would love to see the tens of thousands of vets find a way to serve their country in the in the next at the next stage, you know, to kind of sort of balance out what they were doing the first time.

SPEAKER_05 38:08

Oh, sure. Yeah, absolutely. And and like I said, at the snap poll last night, I mean, I wasn't surprised when when I asked all 80 people getting training. I'm like, how many of you are are veterans or military family members? And um half the half half the hands went up, and that's consistent with kind of Ellen's prognostications of what we think nationwide um the data is. So we are very eager to tell America, um, you know, if you're going to vote, chances are you're being helped. You know, at least one of three of those people volunteering there is probably a veteran or military family member.

SPEAKER_02 38:38

I'm gonna make sure our comms people tweet some of this later today because uh that is so gratifying to hear that you know, a show of hands revealed that half those folks in training are uh are are ex-military, because that is what we need.

SPEAKER_05 38:50

Yeah, it it it was heartening to see and and you know, just what a great way for veterans in the community to to reconnect. Um Yeah, this is uh this is an important topic, you know, because I think one of the things that that Ellen's brought up before and that you've kind of hit on, Greg, but I just really want to punch out for any listeners out there is that the the federalized system of our government where each state is responsible for its own elections and each county is responsible to its state for its own elections is kind of like the strength of the system because there's no one network or no one uh place any foreign advocacy can hack into. Right? They would have to individually go to each you know 10,000 uh municipalities to to do that, and that's a really hard task. Um plus the stuff's not plugged into the internet to begin with, so you can't hack into it, right? You know, you're Joe.

SPEAKER_02 39:37

Can I can I spar with you a little bit on that?

SPEAKER_05 39:39

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:40

Yeah, I I I want to spar I want to push back just a little there. There's a common misconception that the highly distributed balkanized nature of our election infrastructure is the very key to its protection, and that is false. And the reason it is false is that I don't need a widespread attack on an election to Cause the chaos and disruption necessary. I only need to attack a highly contentious swing state, you know, uh set of poles that could throw that state into c disarray, maybe two or three of those states, and remember first to 270. So I don't have to have widespread access. I only need to hit those states where I think I can cause the most damage. And it's even worse than that. I don't actually have to hit them. I just have to make you think I did.

SPEAKER_05 40:30

Right. Yeah, because the impression of the of the threat is as good as the threat itself in this in this instance.

SPEAKER_02 40:36

Yeah, so so please just remember that that balkanization and and highly distributed by design is a feature, but it is not a prophylactic. Because I don't need to have it if this was quote an American election, but as Ellen properly points out, two articles and seven amendments of the Constitution make clear that elections are a state's matter with a federal interest. States right, federal interest, that's it. So we don't have one American election. That's why we don't have one popular vote. If we did, yeah. And even then we'd attack the highest concentrated areas where there's the most contentious uh you know competition, those those those swing states. So just want to push back a little bit on that because it it we all say it and and we say, yeah, but wait a minute. No, it's not, and and by the way, all the equipment itself, too, is yes, there are three different vendors. Uh there are about nine different platform designs. All of them share common characteristics.

SPEAKER_05 41:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:31

And they all have the same weak spots. Okay.

SPEAKER_05 41:34

No, no, I'm I'm glad we had this conversation because these are important points and and even highlights the need until we come up with better technical solutions for the physical because physical security provided by the volunteers.

SPEAKER_02 41:44

So I can't overemphasize the importance of people in this in this ecosystem. And and then, and remember, then there's only so much we can do in the field, and the field is where we're going to have to do it right because we now are faced with the fact that we're hearing through my government relations team, I maintain a board that is equally distributed between libertarians, democrats, and republicans. Everyone checks their animal at the door. We're all pro-democracy. But the good news is I get to hear intel from the cross-the-spectrum. And the thing that's concerning me right now is that there are more than two states who have privately said within their legislature if it becomes necessary to ensure a speci particular candidate wins, we are willing to take the legislative steps to introduce our own electors. Now, just just just marinate on that for a moment. A state legislature is saying that they are willing to tell the people of their state that notwithstanding their will, the legislature is going to send a different slate of electors on January 6th to ensure that a particular candidate wins. This is the greatest risk to this grand experiment that's approaching its 250th birthday. So, how do we fix that? Well, the only way we can counter that is to have such a high turnout election with such a great deal of participation across the spectrum, with such a good level of process in administering that election at the field level, that there can be no question that if a state's legislature decides that they're going to go against the will of their own people just so their candidate can win, that it is almost impossible to do so because the turnout and the counts are so compelling that nobody's going to stand for that. Yeah, it's disturbing. It's disturbing. But if you if for those who are hacks at this stuff, if you paid attention to all the sub sub-meetings at CPAC last week, you you walked away. I had Republican board members walk away shaking. We have a few people, just a few people who are managing to produce the tail wagging the dog problem.

SPEAKER_00 44:11

Well, where's the problem?

SPEAKER_02 44:12

So we've got to work in the field.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

We are are super lucky and and I would say rare as military family uh and veteran community members where um we are so um often surrounded by folks that even you know with different partisan feelings and and strong opinions and political goals, um, we see every day how people can work together for America's big goals. And that is what the military does. People work together across a lot of different lines and they just get the job done that America needs. And that is exactly the type of energy we see uh in elevating the and bringing more of the veteran and military family community to our elections. One thing we joke about, uh, Greg, that you'll you'll find you'll find amusing is you know the data is very clear that a lot of poll workers um are people over 65 and especially women over 65.

SPEAKER_03 45:08

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

And we we we believe um that many of those people, many of those women are probably married to Vietnam vets or were married to Vietnam vets, and that many of those men are are you know uh were were in the service. And so, you know, we already we already see a huge concentration of our community in those positions that are so incredibly important, and that makes us feel really good about our elections.

SPEAKER_02 45:33

This is the single most important mission in terms of how we go to the 24 election is it again, it's the field. It's gonna be at the field level that we that we execute to ensure pro-democracy. Um I I can sit here and honestly say that I have no care about who wins, I only care that the election is conducted freely and fairly and it is verifiable, accurate, secure, and transparent in process so that we can restore belief in elections because it's central to our democracy, it's central to this grand experiment. So I hope that I hope that the that veterans become a major factor in in election administration.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

Well, thank you so much for that perfect ending to this incredibly um educational conversation. And we are so glad that there are um tech nerds from Silicon Valley, sorry, um, working on these these really important um processes and and and products and and systems. So um thank you so much for joining us and giving us a really amazing education. Um and we uh again are so excited um to see what comes in the future. We know that trust the vote is a way that people can get involved. Um we also, of course, uh want our community to vet the vote. Um so two two two ways to engage with the vote um coming off of this podcast. Um but thanks again for your incredible work on our democracy.

SPEAKER_05 47:00

As part of season two, we want to provide veterans a way of getting more involved in their communities to advocate for the issues they care about. To do this, we are featuring veteran organizations that we think you might be interested in. Today's spotlight is on Mission Roll Call. And representing them today is Cole Lyle. Cole is a U.S. Marine Corps veteran and current executive director of Mission Roll Call. He and I first met when he was a legislative director at the American Legion, and since then he's been a military legislative assistant at the U.S. Senate and a special assistant to the Secretary for Legislative Affairs at the Department of Veterans Affairs. He's also known for his work advocating for service dogs for veterans, and he is the author of the Pause Act. He's also a founder of Caius Canines and is a board member of Warrior Ranch. So, Cole, welcome. Where in the country are you and how are you doing? Thanks, Joe.

SPEAKER_04 47:49

Yeah, um I am in Alexandria, just outside of uh DC, uh doing really well. The organization is uh off and running for the year. We just uh testified in front of the House and Senate uh Veterans Affairs Committee joint hearing uh two weeks ago. So we are off and running for the year.

SPEAKER_05 48:06

Awesome. Yeah, I saw that post on LinkedIn where your CEO was was up on the panel. Um before we I want to get into that, but before we do, can you tell me like essentially what is the mission of Mission Roll Call?

SPEAKER_04 48:19

Yeah, so Mission Roll Call, uh listeners may or may not know, right, that less than 50% of veterans in the country um are enrolled in VA uh healthcare, um, use VA benefits, or are associated with a veteran service organization. Um so you know, if only half of us are being included in the policy conversations at the national level, um we're missing out on valuable perspectives uh across the country uh from only half the community. So our mission uh is to be the voice of veterans in the United States, but all veterans. So veterans that that don't necessarily use traditional VSOs or not enrolled in in the VHA or use veteran benefits and give them an unfiltered uh uh voice to policymakers in Washington, D.C., at the White House on Capitol Hill, um, and then you know tell some of their stories. Uh so that's essentially the mission. We we do this through. You can go to missionrollcall.org and sign up for for these polls that we send out. Um if Congress or the VA, for instance, is uh advocating for some change to veteran policy, we poll uh the veterans in our community about what they think about that policy and what that proposed change would do for them. Uh, and then we instantaneously provide that feedback to those policymakers. Um so you kind of you and I both worked at the Legion, you skip through the local posts, the state convention, the national convention, uh, the DC office, and it's and it's really a direct voice from the veteran to the policymaker.

SPEAKER_05 49:58

That's awesome. It sounds like you're cutting out several layers of bureaucracy and and middle people.

SPEAKER_04 50:03

Yeah, yeah. I mean, and and you know, not casting aspersions on the Legion or the VFW or anything. They they do great work and they serve their purpose, but um uh oftentimes the individual veteran can feel like their voice um is is being filtered and not not heard directly. So um that's kind of generally speaking the mission. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:22

Absolutely. Yeah, and I think anytime it like the word goes up the chain, right? It changes at each each level with each reiteration of the storytelling. But you bring up a good good point. Like I think most people think that almost every veteran is enrolled in the VA and gets services through the VA. What might be preventing veterans from actually doing that?

SPEAKER_04 50:43

Yeah, so um it it may not be all bad, right? Some may have uh private health insurance from their uh civilian employer that they're very happy with and that they like using, and so they just don't use it for that reason. Um others may have tried to use it once um and and had a bad experience and stopped going. Um others may have heard horror stories from other veterans because you know, if you've been to one VA, you've been to one VA. Some are great. Um, some provide you know great health care uh and benefits assistance, others not so much. DC VA is a great example. Like I use it personally, it should be the Taj Mahal of VAs because of its proximity to um to Congress and the White House, but it consistently gets um bad satisfaction uh surveys from veterans. So um so you may have bad experiences and hear horror stories from people that use VA and just decide I don't want to deal with the bureaucracy and and I don't want to deal with with that issue.

SPEAKER_05 51:44

Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. And then like military retirees, if you did 20 years and retired, yeah, there are tricare. So they're not even um yeah. Yeah, okay, that's that's a great point. So yeah, what I hear you saying is that all those veterans deserve representation.

SPEAKER_04 52:00

Yeah, 100%. I mean, there it may not be a uh particular question about like if the House Veterans Affairs Committee is discussing a piece of legislation that has to do with community care, yeah. Um, you know, and and the difference between care at VA versus community care. That may not be something that is uh particularly concerning to a veteran that doesn't use the VA. Um but you know, our number one priority for the last few years has been suicide prevention because we routinely hear from veterans that we talk to that that is their most important um issue, and and there are very few veterans that haven't been directly or indirectly affected by that issue. Um but we may ask uh a policy issue that like should the VA right now they view suicide prevention through the lens of mental health. Um and we may ask a question like, do you think that the Office of Suicide Prevention should be removed from the Office of Mental Health? Because suicide's not always a mental health issue. It it usually is a conglomeration of like financial stress, relationship stress. Um mental health can certainly play an important part of that, um, but it's not always a mental health problem. So that right um policy question that we could ask has implications for how much money the VA puts towards uh suicide prevention outreach, which uh which goes directly to the you know the the problem of veterans who aren't utilizing VA and take their life, like how is the VA reaching them? You know? Um when we may ask you know about you know other issues that have more direct impact uh to veterans that don't use the VA. And to be clear, we don't just have veterans on our list, like um you can identify as a caregiver, you can identify um as a family member, um, but we have the ability to poll only the veterans or the larger community of supporters that people um who are interested in veteran policy um and want to say in in how veterans are treated in this country.

SPEAKER_05 54:12

Yeah, and and I think that's an important thing because it's like the veteran community is larger than just the folks who wore the uniform. I mean, um, you know, the the family members definitely are are a super important constituency, people who provide care um definitely an important constituency because I think a lot of times they see things that you know from a different perspective or a different lens that the veteran themselves might not be seeing, right?

SPEAKER_04 54:38

Yeah, yeah. I I um like for instance, like military housing is something that um Congress can't seem to, you know, the agencies uh or the services and um Congress can't seem to get out of their own way, and they end up debating this at almost every single Congress, and it's something that uh affects military families. I mean, obviously it also affects the veterans, um, but more so it affects the you know the um military spouses uh and the kids that that live in um on-base housing, you know, moldy barracks, uh things like that, um, that we can poll our supporters about something, you know, a potential um uh policy that Congress or or you know the Department of the Army or the Department of the Marine or the Department of the Navy is considering to try to alleviate those issues. So that's an example of an issue that uh yes affects veterans, but also affects you know the uh the larger veteran community.

SPEAKER_05 55:36

Definitely. Um so I'm hearing suicide awareness and prevention, I'm hearing uh military uh housing issues. What else is on the front burner for mission roll call these days?

SPEAKER_04 55:48

So access to care is a huge uh thing, as listeners may or may not know. You know, obviously in in 2014 there was that huge uh scandal with the Phoenix uh VA wait list where uh veterans died on secret wait lists. That prompted Congress uh that same year to uh pass the CHOICE Act, which was the first piece of legislation that allowed the VA to use community providers as sort of a relief valve if they couldn't provide veterans at the VA the care they needed uh when they needed it and within a reasonable distance. Um that initial bill uh had like six different funding streams. It was a little convoluted, it was a little hard to navigate. Um community care providers oftentimes had trouble getting reimbursed by VA. Uh so Congress passed the Mission Act in 2018, which updated this piece of legislation. Um and since the Mission Act was passed, now community care accounts for roughly uh like over one-third of the VA's total spending on health care. Um and there are uh people in the community that debate the merits of you know, is is VA you know demonstrate uh is it is it better than community care? Um, do veterans like using community care versus uh VA healthcare? There's a debate going on right there, and our main um uh not recommendation, but uh we've polled veterans pretty extensively on this. Um and it's clear that uh they they like the care they get from VA, um but they but but despite that they want their care regardless of if it's the community or at the VA as as soon as they can get an appointment um and within a reasonable distance, right? So if the VA can't can't provide, they prefer uh care at the VA, but if the VA can't provide it, they want to be uh seen in the community, right? So um we have presented members of Congress and uh particularly the House and Senate Veterans Affairs Committee. Uh we testified last year about this issue when we presented that that polling data uh to them uh because they're still debating this issue because the VA has had issues. Uh it's the largest healthcare system in the country. So anytime Congress passes a wide-sweeping piece of legislation, implementation is really hard because uh you have a huge agency where local and what are called visans have a lot of autonomy to run their organizations as they see fit. So, long story short, um we exist to provide uh um feedback from the veteran community about their access to care issues, uh, challenges, successes, what they want, um because uh outreach in particular, right? Um, and trying to make sure that veterans are getting the care they need when they need it. Because for those that actually use the VA, the um the roughly 50% that use the VA, um, one, we want to make sure that they don't have the horror stories that prevent the other veterans from coming to the VA and utilizing the care and services that they have. Um, but two, you know, we want to make sure that that the issues that they have uh with VA don't become larger issues and ultimately contribute to you know uh our number one priority, which is veteran suicide. Because if you have a healthcare issue, that is a huge burden on you and your family. Um and so that's that's the second priority. So that's that's hot, that's huge right now. Um remains to be seen in an election year, you know, how much uh how much Congress is gonna is gonna get done and and focus on. Um but that's what we're that's what we're talking about, and we're trying to keep those issues front and center for members of Congress uh and the administration.

SPEAKER_05 59:51

Awesome. Yeah, and I I think that's a a really important distinction is that y you know, when you ha I mean, how many veterans let me back up a little bit. How many veterans do you

SPEAKER_04 1:00:00

represent we've got about uh 1.4 million that have opted into our yeah um our our polls um right now we don't we don't usually poll all of them at at the same time um we do have the ability to get as uh uh granular as a particular zip code so if one member of congress uh wants to figure out you know how the veterans feel in their district about their local ba or community based outpatient clinic um are you satisfied right we can we can pull that district or we can pull that state um i and on national level things that's when we pull you know a couple hundred thousand at a time um about their issues and with response rates we we usually get um in the in the tens of thousands of responses so that's awesome yeah I mean by by representation size I mean 1.2 million puts you right up there with like the traditional um uh VSOs like the the the Legion of EFW I mean their membership rate is only about about 1.2 million each I think so yeah um we've been I mean and I think part of it is because we're not asking for uh um we're not asking you to show up to a brick and mortar you know place like this is something that you you can sign up with on your phone um or your computer and our polls come to you and it takes you 30 seconds to answer the the polls it's not a huge time commitment um you know particularly like I I have a one year old right um and I don't have the time between my full-time job and having a one year old um and other commitments to to really take a lot of time to go to a fraternal you know or um veteran organization and just sit around and and and talk about things and uh whatever I've got plenty of stuff going on. Yeah um so it's easy for me to just respond to these polls and and and have my voice be heard. So I think that plays into it um in the digital information age it's just easier to for people to provide their voice this way.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:05

Yeah no absolutely I know it's uh like we've got a lot going on and I think it's like just our generation's way of coming together, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:13

You know it's yeah it's a different way but I th I think you know um the vets I talk to you're still looking for that same connection even though if they might find it in different places than than their grandparents did right um how how do you see mission roll calls work contributing to a stronger America well I think uh the more veterans get involved in the policy making process one way or another uh the better off we're all going to be uh veterans have um uh oftentimes out of necessity uh come together and you have people from all different backgrounds all different walks of life um coming together to accomplish a mission uh to work together as a team to overcome their differences and to and to figure out how to move forward and to be successful as a as a unit um uh as a branch a service branch uh to do that and I think that uh intangible skill of being able to disagree without being disagreeable with each other is something that we all could could learn and benefit from um because and and studies uh show that veterans when they get out they're they're predisposed and more inclined to work in um service kind of categories of jobs firefighters uh police officers they're more inclined uh to donate to charitable organizations they're more inclined to be involved in in community organizations um you know civic efforts uh so you know this is a community that the more you empower them to make sure they have the tools they need to thrive and succeed um it's gonna benefit their communities it's gonna benefit your states and ultimately the country 100% yeah I couldn't agree more and I I stole that line from you about being able to disagree without being disagreeable to each other and and uh you told that to me a number of years ago and it it it landed and took root so uh yeah I I thank you for that and I think you know that that's a good reminder for everyone because I think you know when I got into my community you know here you can watch the news and hear about like oh America's so divided but you know when I go to the post office when I go to volunteer at the election polls when I go to um you know local businesses and and uh you know walk on the streets of my community I don't see it I don't I don't I don't see uh that level of division so I think I think you know one thing um you you're talking about connection and human connection and meaningful connection to you know come together to kind of work on the problems that we have and make our communities a nation a better place.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:45

100% yeah and and I think that's that's something that's definitely not lost. I mean we we did that in the in the military you and I did that in the Marine Corps you know in the same organization. And I think you know a lot of other aspects of American society can kind of learn from that example of like putting differences aside what what's really important and let's let's kind of come together to work on it. Yeah let's it might be a good segue into the the vet the vote coalition I know Mission Roll Call uh joined us in 2022 and is a proud proud member we're up to 37 organizations now um in vet the vote you know we started with six uh in 2022 and um you know we recruited 63500 in 2022 and we're looking at 100,000 this year so could you tell us a little bit about why joining that effort was important to your organization?

SPEAKER_04 1:05:35

Yeah I mean I think we just discussed it right the more veterans get involved in in the uh in their communities and in the policy making process and frankly the the political process we are a 501c3 um so we are we are apolitical we don't um advocate for you know Republicans democrats independents whatever um but but veterans are uh geographically diverse we're everywhere uh we can stay calm in in heated situations um provide a a level of comfort and security that that the average civilian like the I think the Department of Veterans Affairs or excuse me the Department of Defense and and veterans have one of the highest trust ratings amongst the general population. So you know veterans getting involved in this process which is also apolitical and which is also just trying to help our communities that are seeing this massive shortage in poll workers has a direct effect on the on the health of our uh institutions and in our uh on our country so it was a natural fit uh to try to get folks that want to get more involved like um we did some uh marketing campaign back in in 2022 to try to uh to get people to sign up to be poll workers and and just and just help and just be there in their communities and it was a great way that um you know you donate um a relatively you know minimal amount of time uh to help your community and ultimately you know state and country in a in a very direct way that that is not political and you don't have to show up and debate people and um I mean you can if you want to but like uh you don't you don't you don't have to do that it's very non-political and you're just it's a uh a direct benefit on the strength of our institutions.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:24

Yeah absol absolutely effect um we just had our primaries here in in Virginia a couple weeks ago and three out of four of the people running our our polling station in our precinct were veterans so it it was it was great. You know it's um yeah you know you just feel good about making democracy happen for your fellow citizens and it's like one of the few places where you got Republicans Democrats and independents all coming together to do something good and positive for the country and yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:50

Well well cool um any any final thoughts uh for for the audience um how can people get more involved if they're interested in uh supporting your efforts yeah I mean I would just say uh you can go to missionrollcall.org obviously if you're a veteran um or veteran adjacent your spouse or caregiver uh you know dependent whatever uh sign up uh for the polls uh that we send out um obviously feel free to donate if you want to if you want to make a donation um uh but then my final thought would just be you know um if you are a veteran I would encourage you uh to uh to vet the vote and go out and uh sign up to be a poll worker uh because that's that's why we are part of the coalition because it's important work and um and uh it's it's something that veterans are a natural fit for. Awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:38

Well Cole I I've admired you and your work for for many years now. You know glad we met back in 2017 and uh um excited to see uh what you'll be doing in the future. So thanks so much for spending some time with us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:52

Yeah appreciate it thanks Joe thank you so much for listening. If you found this podcast episode interesting or useful please share it with the people you know this episode was co-hosted by Joe Flensler and Ellen Gustafson. The audio and video were edited by King's Collab Studios this podcast is a production of We the Veterans and Military Families a 501c3 not for profit, nonpartisan veteran and military spouse led organization focused on promoting positive and patriotic civic engagement to strengthen American freedom and liberty find out more about us at weTheveterans.us and follow us on social media