Ep. 17: Womens' contributions to our national defense

This episode is all about the many contributions women have made to our national defense and how the military services are changing to better leverage the full talents of the American people. Leading off today's conversation, Joe speaks with U.S. Marine Corps attack helicopter pilot and combat veteran, Katey van Dam (1:33). Katey deployed in support of combat operations in Afghanistan and counter-piracy operations in the Horn of Africa/Gulf of Aden. She also co-founded No Exceptions, a non-partisan initiative that led the effort to get the Department of Defense to allow women to compete for jobs in the infantry, artillery, tanks, combat engineers and other previously closed military occupational specialties (MOSs). Next up, Ellen has a chat with Army veteran Phyllis Wilson (14:05) who served 37 years in the Army as a Military Intelligence (MI) Voice Intercept Operator. Phyllis has served around the globe – visiting more than 35 countries and had been mobilized numerous times to shoulder the duties of defense of the nation and has deployed to Iraq several times as an Intelligence Analyst with Special Operations. She now leads the efforts of the Womens Military Memorial in Arlington National Cemetery - whose mission is to capture and tell the stories of the many women who have defended our country. Lastly, Lindsay Knight (43:15) of Blue Star Families joins us for a discussion on what her organization is doing to strengthen the military community.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Young officers would seek me out sometimes for counting men and women, but I started to notice a pattern of young women seeking me out, and they would just kind of vent their frustrations that you know they wanted to go do these cool specialties, but they weren't allowed to. And physically capable, total rock stars, like all of the things, right? And it really started getting me to think like, what are we losing out on talent by this artificial, you know, restriction? Of course, I had wanted to go on to be a FAC, a Ford air controller after my time in the squadron, wasn't allowed to do that, or even to be an air officer, which mostly sits in the battalion. Um, so I had had my own frustrations, but to watch this talent, these Americans who volunteered to raise their right hand during a time of war, et cetera, et cetera, just essentially be artificially constrained for no particular reason other than some antiquated um, you know, regulation.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

Welcome back to the Vetted Conversations Podcast.

SPEAKER_03 1:02

Where we delve into the foundations, workings, and current challenges to the American way of self-governance.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

In today's confusing world, it's more important than ever to understand how our government works and how we, as citizens, can actively participate in the discussion, safeguard our liberties, and continue freedom.

SPEAKER_03 1:18

Our mission is to ensure you, our listeners, have the knowledge and insights needed to become more informed and engaged citizens and active members of your community. So let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 1:34

So today's episode is all about the role women have played in our national defense. And this goes beyond the military. Since 1776, women have played key roles in important points of our military history. And today we're honored to have one amazing veteran here to talk to us about this and her experiences as a Marine, a helicopter gunship pilot, a combat veteran, White House fellow, a senior director at Inc. And now as the head of strategic growth for SkyFi, a geospatial hub company. Katie, welcome. So today's episode focuses on the contributions women have made to our military. And I know you've been personally involved in a very meaningful way with this issue since I first met you when you're advocating around 2014-2015 timeframe that the Department of Defense rescind its ground combat zone exclusion policy for women and open up all MOSs. Can you tell me like a little bit about what was important about that time and why did you get involved?

SPEAKER_04 2:32

I entered the US Naval Academy May of 2001. I thought I had a lofty idea that I was going to be sailing the high seas and, you know, some sort of fantasy about hunting pirates, which ironically I did end up hunting pirates off the coast of Somalia for my first deployment. But neither here nor there, a few months later, September 11th happened. I remember coming back from my class, essentially told everybody get into the ready room, and we were just watching the screens. And that was obviously, like many of my generation, an extremely defining moment. The decision I'd already made the decision to enter the military, but um this fundamentally changed the course of really where we saw our futures. Um and I'd always been drawn to the Marine Corps, um, specifically because I come from a family of cops, and um Marines are so much like police officers, where they, you know, they lament that they are underpaid, overworked, underappreciated, but there is a pride that Marines have about their identity as Marines that cops have as well. So that certainly uh spoke to me early on. Um, and then as I was looking, you know, our country had just been attacked and started kind of taking seriously like what does the future look like for me as an officer? If should I be selected in the Marine Corps? I got really excited about artillery. I don't know why. That just excited me. Big guns. Um, obviously, I ended up flying a cobra, which has lots of missiles and guns on it too. Um, but that was really interesting to me. And I remember speaking to an officer how I wanted to be an artillery officer. And they told me I couldn't because I was a girl, which blew my mind. I grew up in South San Jose and the Bay Area. Nobody had ever told me no because I was a girl. I thought that was a pretty outdated idea, and so I started going down the list. You know, okay, what about infantry? What about human intelligence, which wasn't open to women, which is that in itself was an entire conversation. And I couldn't believe that there were these MOSs that were there for Marine officers or just for Marines in general, that women couldn't be. So, of course, at the time I said, okay, how close, how can I get to the close to the fight with as much firepower as possible? Somebody told me about cobras, and so that was kind of my first, that was kind of my singular goal of go on, be a cobra pilot, go to combat. And I did that thing. That was great. So fast forward, I don't know, that was 2001, fast forward to 2012. My first deployment had been counter-piracy operations off the coast of Somalia on the 13th Mew. And then my second was like straight up dirt debt. We went out to Afghanistan, Helmond, very kinetic summer, everything you dream of when you want to become a COCA pilot. Um, I came back. Um, my husband was on the East Coast, so I followed him out here and decided I would go teach at the basic school in Quanaco, Virginia. And for those of your listeners who don't know what that is, essentially that is where after every marine officer finishes boot camp, um, well, OCS, which is their boot camp, then they move on to the basic school at six months, where we train all officers how to become marine officers, how leadership predominantly through infantry tactics, but also really exposing them to everything that their peers who are going to go off to different specialties will be doing. And when I became an instructor there, it was it was so much fun, it was amazing. It was far more fun and um and fulfilling than I anticipated. And then, you know, young officers would seek me out sometimes for counting men and women, but I started to notice a pattern of young women seeking me out, and they would just kind of vent their frustrations that, you know, they wanted to go do these cool specialties, but they weren't allowed to. And physically capable, total rock stars, like all of the things, right? And it really started getting me to think like, what are we losing out on talent by this artificial, you know, restriction? Of course, I had wanted to go on to be a FAC, a Ford air controller after my time in the squadron, wasn't allowed to do that, or even to be an air officer, which mostly sits in the battalion. Um, so I had had my own frustrations, but to watch this talent, these Americans who volunteered to raise their right hand during a time of war, et cetera, et cetera, just essentially be artificially constrained for no particular reason other than some antiquated um, you know, regulation. When um then um Secretary of Defense Panetta in um 2013 essentially said he was going to rescind the combat exclusion policy, ground combat exclusion policy, and he would give the services time to request an exception to policy. Um I was in this meeting um at a think tank and asked a question about how we could come to a speaker essentially, and I said, you know, how do we compare the repeal of don't ask, don't tell, you know, um, in with this new opportunity to integrate women fully into the military. I don't even remember what the speaker's answer was, but the real part of that story is at the end of it, I was taking my notes like I always do, and I look up and there are these three women surrounding me that and they said, Let's do something about this.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Definitely. And I think you know it's no small thing because you were a captain or a major at the time, I'd imagine, right?

SPEAKER_04 8:27

Captain, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Yeah, captain, pointing out to the Marine Corps um that the status quo needs to change. And I was up at the Pentagon at the time, working in the Commandant's office, and I saw how desperately those old infantry generals wanted to keep their all-male locker room. And uh, you know, when when that decision changed, I stood up and cheered. It was uh it was a beautiful moment for our family for a number of reasons. But the thing I love about your approach, Katie, was that you approached advocacy in a very different way than a lot of people do. A lot of people think it's all about making noise and telling someone else that they're wrong. And we know from human psychology, like if we approach people that way and make them feel shame, you know, their fight or flight uh gets triggered and their shields go up and they are closed completely to reason and curiosity and logic. So the I'm really surprised to hear you say that. Can you tell me some more about how you arrived at the decision approach? It is perfect for you know persuading people. So I mean, yeah, I I love that. So now that we've had a couple years distance, what do you see out there? Like what's been the effect?

SPEAKER_04 9:32

I'm relatively removed from the day to day. I obviously keep up with the headlines. Um it's it's reaching the point though, and I said this early on when we founded no exceptions. I said, I want when I retire, it's pretty close to that, for you know, a new Marine to be like, wait, ma'am, you were in when Marine, when women couldn't be in the infantry, you're so old, right? Not that I'm like trying to march to my death quickly. But it it's one of those, yeah, it's one of those things that like it takes a generation to like change it, right? Um, and and sometimes it takes a little longer. I think at this moment in society, though, it's moving quicker. So if you look at when they allowed women to fly combat aviation, right? That was 1992, officially really got instated in 94. Um, I got my wings in 2007, and by account I was told um I was the ninth woman to fly cobras, which seems like 15 years, it took a while to get there. But I think this is moving much quicker because women are more represented, just writ large in the military. You know, the numbers are much larger, and I think women are being pulled towards it a little bit more. Um, I think there's a larger like societal conversation around military enlistment in general, right? And that in itself is maybe separate. But it's so exciting to see that it's not like, oh, one woman passed ranger school. Like this is now becoming so normal, it's not headlines anymore, right? And that's such a short time for that to happen. You know, um, this the got turned around in December of 2015, and here we are, I guess nine years later, but like nobody really cares anymore. And and that's actually the fact that it's mundane and not headline worthy really says a lot to both the culture and the accomplishment that we anticipated just with opening the door.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

Yeah, for sure. No, I really, really appreciate those thoughts. Um, final question because I want to be conscious of our time together, and I know you've you've got other things to do today. Um what do you wish your fellow Americans is uh what do you wish your fellow Americans knew about women in our military?

SPEAKER_04 11:54

Yeah. Um it's a good question that like that we were that we were there, right? That we were in war, that we did the thing. Um it's nobody's fault, but I still um, you know, if I'm wearing like a Marine Corps t-shirt, get asked if like my husband was in the Marine Corps, which he was. He served honorably for economy and all the things, right? But I think like so many things, you know, when we look at the C-suite, when we look at all these other high-powered jobs that have traditionally been, you know, men have held them. I think we need to start taking a question to be like, what's her story, right? And I think if we start, what's her story, then a lot of women will share it in the more stories that get out there of like here we were, no kid, you know, no shit, there I was. Um a lot more of those stories. I think that um I think that we will have our place in the history books. We did it. We were there, we all know we were there, but I think especially when you're a minority, um, whatever minority status is, whether it's gender, race, religion, socioeconomics, I don't know, whatever you're a minority, you tend to want to be humble and quiet and just do it, right? Because if you if you're loud, whatever, you get accused of tokenism, whatever it is. So you just I think it's time to tell our story and tell the story and weave it into the overall narrative of you know this global war on terror.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Awesome. I can't think of a a better, more poignant uh thought to end on. So, Katie, it's been awesome to have you here today. We really appreciate your time and your gifts of wisdom and his you know your insight into more recent history. Um, and I I agree with you. I think you know, the the day where it's just kind of like not a big deal, you know, you run across a female infantry company commander, maybe battalion commander, and probably's like, oh that'll be a good day. Yeah. Well, thanks for having time for us today. I appreciate it. Next, joining Ellen in studio is Phyllis Wilson, a 37-year Army vet, who's now the president of the women in military service for American Memorial Foundation, the only national memorial honoring three million women who have defended America from the Revolutionary War to today.

SPEAKER_03 14:24

I am so thrilled to be talking to Phyllis Wilson today about a whole host of things. We've already been chatting a little bit about life as a woman connected to the military. I um have done so only as a military spouse, but have an unbelievable respect for all of my uh my sisters who are um officially sisters in arms, but um I am um thrilled to learn and to talk more about the incredible uh military women's memorial, but also all of the other things that you do in highlighting and raising up and uh and supporting women in the military. And so um I first want to just say, could you give us a quick snapshot of your story uh in the military so that everyone has some background?

SPEAKER_02 15:08

Sure. Well, thank you first of all for giving me this opportunity. I loved my time in the military. 37 years in the Army, as a matter of fact. Uh, young and dumb, joined the military because I needed college money, and I was gonna do my four years, get out, go back to school, and that was it was a chapter in my life. Well, it became multiple chapters, actually, with 37 years. I just I fell in love with uh the regimen, the team, the sense of purpose, all of the things that the key people in the military, um, which is typically very different of why we ever join in the first place. So you join for the money, you join for the travel, you join for college, and then you stay for the people. And just had incredible assignments, got to work with some of the best of the best, and uh never got my fill of it until finally um I actually fell ill um later in the career. And I had always told myself if I couldn't do all of the things physically that I demanded of my younger soldiers, then it was time for me to exit. And so that's what I did. And but then that ultimately brought me just in time to my new chapter, which is here at the Military Women's Memorial.

SPEAKER_03 16:24

That's amazing. Wow, what a story! And I love that I think there's so many people um who feel similarly to you that I've met in the military that they want to be doing all the the same physical things as as everybody else, um, which is which is so cool and so unique in in our population. It's actually a really cool, you know, part of the the military family that there are so many really fit older people that are still still at it, still running, still, still doing everything. Um so I I wanted to ask, you know, we're we're recording this during um Women's History Month. And so um, can you just give us the whole, like, where is the Military Women's Memorial? What is the mission? Give us the the the you know the big the big story about it.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

The down and dirty, if you will.

SPEAKER_03 17:04

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

Yeah. So the military women's memorial is located at the entrance to Arlington National Cemetery, just outside of Washington, D.C., some of the most hallowed ground. And it's a crazy story how it came to be there, but um there it is. And it honors and tells the stories of the more than three million women, all the way back to the Revolutionary War, that have helped to defend this country. And there it is, 27 years in the making. I never heard about it as it was being built and then opened, which just is dumbfounding to me now. And I didn't learn about it until 2013 when it had been open for 16 years. The whole time I was in the Army, never knew about it.

SPEAKER_03 17:52

Wow. And so why is it at the at the entrance to Arlington National Cemetery?

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Well, Congress approved by law the creation of the Military Women's Memorial in the mid-1980s, and um then the hunt was on. Where in and around Washington, D.C. should it be? Well, the curved half-circle wall of the entrance to Arlington National Cemetery was built in the 1930s, and that is our front wall. It was a retaining wall, just a dirt hill behind it. But as our founder, Brigadier General Wilma Vaught, whose birthday is March 15th, she'll be 94 years old. Wow. So when she had just retired from the Air Force and she is now in charge of finding where is the right location for the Military Women's Memorial, there were eight major locations she was looking at on National Park Service ground in and around D.C. And out of all of the places when she stood up on what is was the hilltop at the top of the retaining wall, she looked around and it was in a state of sorry disrepair. But as you stand there and you look towards Washington, D.C., there's nothing between us and the Lincoln Memorial. And as she looked around and behind, it's all the white grave markers going up the hill to the Kennedy Flame, to the Lee Custis Mansion, and she just nodded her head apparently and looked at whoever she was with and said, This is it. It was just waiting for us.

SPEAKER_03 19:18

Wow. Wow, that is so that is so special. I also love that it was, you know, of course, women stepping into a part that needed needed help, needed support, um, and then turning it into something uh incredibly beautiful. So, so when you talk about, you know, going all the way back to the revolution, um, I I know I actually read on your bio that you and I are both members of the Daughters of the American Revolution. So I'm very passionate about that. Um, and and so I'm curious, like, are there any notable stories from way back then from our really early American history?

SPEAKER_02 19:50

You know, it was yeah, it wasn't legal for a woman to be in the military until 1901 when they created the Army Nurse Corps. So that that's Means the first 125 years of our country, it wasn't legal to be in the military. So we recognize women that served with the military, but there are a few exceptions. And Deborah Sampson is one of those notables of the Revolutionary War. She, among others, disguised themselves as men, wore a military uniform, fought bravely, valiantly, did incredible great things, and she actually did receive a pension later. She received a musket ball to the thigh, dug it out herself because going to a doctor would mean they'd figure out that is not a man. And but about a year later, she a lot of respiratory things must have been a horrible flu or something like that. She was high fever or somewhat delirious. They her teammates took her to the doctor. And I even rudimentary stethoscopes back then, but nonetheless, when you place it against a woman's chest, it probably presented a little differently than a male chest might have. But the doctor, God bless his soul, did not like shame her, out her. He filed her for an honorary discharge, honorable discharge. And um several years later, when she made petition for a pension, she did receive it. We also have um, I've seen letters from the soldiers that served in the Revolutionary War, sort of like today's texting would have been like, Mom, you won't believe what I saw today text, you know. But these guys wrote letters home that as they were claiming all of the salvageable uniforms and boots off of the dead and fallen, um, because the living did not have some of them didn't have a first pair, let alone a second pair. And so they would bury the fallen, but they'd take the coats and shoes and so forth. And several of these letters home say that as we were removing the stripping the clothes off from a soldier, hmm, it was a woman. And so they left her clothes, but they did nonetheless, you know, lay her, bury her. So we have documented evidence that this in fact happened. And in the Civil War, there was a woman that served uh the battle, gets an award, battlefield promotion to sergeant for her daring due that day as a man. Wow. Nobody knew, and one month later she gave birth to a bouncing baby boy.

SPEAKER_03 22:27

No. Wow. I mean, if you're ever gonna be really proud to be a woman, it's moments like that. There's there's a book about the Civil War women called They Fought Like Devils. Wow. Wow. I mean, and and I, you know, I can imagine there's so many, so many complexities of that, but but uh yeah, I'm sure the motivation for, you know, when you have a motivation to fight, I mean, I know as a as a mom and as a as a woman, I mean, sometimes that motivation can really make you make you feel feel pretty devilish. Um, and so wow, that's so incredible. And are there any other sort of even more more recent, you know, is there is there sort of like one one or two amazing stories of women veterans that Americ all Americans and especially military connected folks should know?

SPEAKER_02 23:14

Yeah, I would say um, you know, there's some crazy stories of women that have innovative Kim KC Campbell. Um, Kim Campbell, Casey, why it was her call sign, and uh in the early Iraq part of the Iraq war, 2003-2004, she's flying A10s and she's going in. Uh her plane gets hit so many times, and she turns and figuring out am I gonna have to, you know, launch myself out of this bird? Am I gonna be able to land it? Well, she ultimately does land it. The bird never flies again because it is over 800 bullet holes in the plane, and somehow she brought it home and landed it. Um, but there she is, and people asked her about what was it like trying to get back up in the air again. And she says, as fate would have it, the very next day they had a call that there was a downed pilot in Iraq and they needed A-10 support. And so she and her battle buddy, they launch and you know, her wingman, they they she just grabs her helmet and runs and and they're out there. And and she didn't have time to think about it, she said. But thank God for her, because she's like, I don't know, you know, but just as they were crossing into Iraqi airspace, um, the call comes out the ground forces have have secured that downed pilot and that they could turn around and go back and land. And she said, Thank God it was that kind of a call the next day that made her have to get back into the seat. Right. Because it's a single person plane. There's nobody in there but you. And uh, but but I think some of these incredible stories, it's it we're the legacy, you know, of of what those women so long ago did and gave us the the the gumption, even when we didn't know it. Because I will tell you, I've learned so many of these stories in the four and a half years I've been at the women's memorial and the 37 years I was in, I never once heard about them.

SPEAKER_03 25:11

Yeah, that's so interesting. Well, and you know, it's it's it's there's stories that we we should Americans and and you know, military connected folks and veterans should all be hearing in general, but it's even more important to make sure that the stories are you know a little more uh balanced and not just, you know, there's there's there's incredible, incredible, you know, heroism by men across many generations. And um, we're in awe of that. But it is really, really important to also tell these stories um, you know, that that may not go as as as well noted. So I'm so glad you guys are doing that. Um and so so it's interesting because you know, as you're telling these stories, it's it's based in the the historical context that there were supposed to be no women, right? And then more recent context where um you know the the percentage of women has been relatively low. Um but in today, I mean, the percentage of women in the military is rising. And it seems like I think the numbers are that by by 2032, um, women are are gonna be about 14% of all veterans, which is of course the highest that that we would have ever been of the veteran population. So, how do you think this will change, you know, first of all, your mission and your your work for, you know, representing a military women's memorial, but also kind of the experience for women veterans?

SPEAKER_02 26:31

Yeah, that's a great question because there's so many great stories that many of us have never heard about that are already there on the books. But look, every day, these women in the military are making history. They just don't realize it at the time. I don't think any of us did while we were doing whatever we're just doing our job, you know, and that just like our male counterparts, just doing the job. And I will tell you too that for the longest time by law, again, uh when we couldn't serve at all, and then when we were finally given the opportunity to serve for more than wartime, we were capped at 2%. We couldn't be more than 2% of the military, and that held true until just about basically 1970. So it was probably 68 to 70 that that opened up. But again, it takes time for for these ranks to fill. And again, I think we don't always tell the general public all of the career fields that are out there. People may think, you know, well, I don't necessarily want to go, you know, be on the front lines, but all of the career fields that there are in the military. And I think with technology, you will see more and more women joining and serving their country, whether active, guard, or reserve, because that's the balancing point that we were talking about earlier, is is with having a trying to have a family, trying to raise children, you know, so often, you know, you're gonna meet and and marry the person that somebody that you are, you got to run into them. And so if you're in the military, who you're gonna run into other military. And that was my case. I met and married uh, you know, another soldier. And there came a point where I decided I needed to leave active duty and go into the reserve. But all of these stories and what the future holds, I think, you know, we just need a bigger place, or the good thing is, well, we can't make a bigger women's memorial because of our location. Technology now gives us the capacity to tell these incredible stories, and we're dumpster diving every day looking for all of the additional stories, the things like God, I didn't know about her. So, how do we tell those in a way, and technology will help us to do that? Just like on our website now, we do have some of those incredible stories that people can see whether you can make it physically to Arlington, Virginia, or not.

SPEAKER_03 28:53

Or not. Well, and so and so you also have a register, right? Can you tell us a little bit about that? Um, and and you know, how how we can make sure that people are telling their stories, especially women veterans?

SPEAKER_02 29:04

Yes. Well, we have two. We one we want women that are or have served. So, well, it's called a memorial, it's a living memorial. Every woman that is serving today, whether you just got started or you've been in for 10, 20, 30 years, and every woman that has hung up the uniform, we want your stories in our national database. We have almost 312,000 stories in there now, which sounds like a lot, but over 3 million serves. So we've got 2.7, 2.8 million yet to go today, and more coming in every day. So it looks like a big baseball card. It's your photo, the years you served, what branch of service, your awards and decorations, where did you serve, stateside and overseas. And then the best part is the memorable experiences. And there are some that are just downright hilarious, and others rather morbid, but we we tend to do that sometimes. Um that's what we live for. And this is a research database. And we say we can only tell the stories that we know about. So if you're not in our database, we probably can't tell your story. And when you come inside the memorial, we use those to create our exhibitions, our gallery artwork, all of those things come from that database.

SPEAKER_03 30:24

That is so cool. Wow, what a what an incredible treasure trove of for you know for America, about America. Um, and so so you know, I'm I'm curious for your own experience, your own military story. Is there any you know, sort of personal notable story you you you you like to tell about your military experience?

SPEAKER_02 30:43

I I don't do that so well. I'd love to tell some of the other stories, to be honest with you.

SPEAKER_03 30:48

Well, that's funny. So, so um you you also now are uh you you've been a military spouse, you've been a military parent, um, and you know, how how does it you are um representing what we say a lot, which is the military is often a family industry. I think the numbers are about over 70% of currently serving um you know military members come from military families. And so do you think, you know, having been having served yourself, like what do you think you you you did to make you know the next generation in your family want to serve as well? Do you think there was anything specific that you you did or how you talked about it or how the experience was or moving or or what you know, what about it made made the next generation? I'm asking also because I have little kids and I want to know how I can encourage them.

SPEAKER_02 31:34

I I think sometimes even when you're not up for it, the move, the you know, the the separation, the whatever is about to happen, um, putting on a strong, brave face, especially for the children, is um is something that, yeah, you can cry once you get in the car, you can do those kind of things, but those kids have to know that you know it's okay. This is normal, it's as normal as a military life is gonna be. And there are times when we have to be apart, but it doesn't mean and and now again, technology, like with you know, being able to Zoom or Teams or Face FaceTime, whatever the case is, we didn't have that when I when my kids were little. We didn't. But I will tell you some of the great stories for us was um keeping them involved, whether it was promotion ceremonies. Um certainly um they did not come down to um when I completed jump school down in Georgia because they were in North Carolina at the time. But um I did get to attend their graduations when they and as a legacy, you get to pin the jump wings on your child's chest. And that's that's pretty cool. So I think them seeing me sort of being not really fearless, in their eyes, fearless. I I was, you know, doesn't mean my hands weren't shaken and other things through parts of my career. They didn't need to see it because I didn't need them to worry about me, not because I was their mom, but because I was their parent.

SPEAKER_03 33:06

Yeah, of course. Yeah, I mean any parent, it's it's it's so similar. I bet though, there there's probably some there's a there's few numbers today of mom uh pinners of jump wings. I'm I'm I'm curious, I'm that's an interesting number to dig into. I'm sure it's you know, it'll go, it'll grow and grow and grow because there's more and more, of course. Um, but yeah, that's that's a really cool story. Um, but so it's interesting because as you're you're talking about, you know, the experience of being a a a woman veteran or just being a veteran, it does seem, and there's some data to support that women are less likely to identify themselves as veterans. And so what do you think is, you know, where do you think that comes from? Are there are there certain stereotypes that sort of we as Americans need to help overcome? And and you know, what's our role, first of all, as citizens, but also as a community of veterans and military families? How can we help people feel more, you know, connected to that name, that title that they've earned?

SPEAKER_02 33:58

Yeah, um, because of some of the negative stereotypes, even of women of World War II and going into Korea, um the Pentagon stood up the Defense Advisory Committee on Women in the Service, Dacowitz for short, in 1951. And this was really meant to help Americans and parents of prospective young women to join the military to see it as a pathway, an avenue, something to be proud of. Um, but even when I joined the military in the early 1980s, I will tell you it was the stereotype was still there, and it was there's only two kinds of women that joined the military. Neither of them were positive. And uh they'd always ask you, which one of those are you? So you were either you were either very promiscuous or you were gay. Which of those are you? And I'm like, I don't think I'm either of those, but you know, now I would be a little bit more snippy with it, but you know, I I was just bowled over. I'm like, what? Why would they say that? But even recently, as a matter of fact, a few years ago, I parked in a veteran parking spot and got out of my car because many women veterans, to your point, we don't I don't wear gear, I don't have a baseball cap, I don't have a shirt, I don't have, you know, I just don't. Um and I got out of the parking, out of my car, and a guy quickly said, Excuse me, that is veteran parking. And I said, Yes, sir. Um, and then his next question out of his mouth was, is your husband with you? Yeah, um, but I mean, he was an older guy. I I get it. I try to be, I was polite to him. We had a conversation. Turns out we were both jumping out of airplanes at the same era. Um, thanked him for a service. He did not reciprocate. But I will tell you, God has a reason for doing these things to you because had that not happened, I would not have put my name in the hat for consideration to be the president of the Military Women's Memorial because I was a soldier. And it just finally frosted me because that made me realize if I'd been a man that had parked there, even if I'd never served, that guy wouldn't have said squat to me when I got out of the car, wouldn't have said anything. And I thought, there's three million of us, for goodness sakes. How many more does it take until America just either says nothing or they say thank you for your service when you park in a veteran spot, when you do whatever, when you wear something that says it, a lot of women won't wear the hat or you know, navy or whatever, because the first default for so many Americans is tell your husband thank him for his service. And and we're over it. We're just we're done, you know. So it's like I I don't I'm not even gonna tell you that I served because still for the elder older folks, there's only two kinds of women that that would have joined. And for the younger ones, you know, they get it, but you know, I'm not all about trying to prove who I am, and I think that's the case with most men and women in the military. Um, but you do see a lot more of the men wear proudly wearing their baseball cap that they served in Iraq or Afghanistan or Korea, God bless them. You know, all of those. It just it messes my hair up, so I'm not doing it.

SPEAKER_03 37:19

I love that. Yeah, I mean, I don't know what else what else could be for for women to wear. I mean, like a I mean, people don't wear pins as much anymore or you know, scarves or something.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

But it's funny, Ellen, you say that because we do. We have a women of valor lapel pin. Oh, okay. It's a beautiful purple pin, and we have it in our gift shop. We also have a necklace that matches it, and we have a brooch. Now, the lapel pin, any American can we ask them to wear it as a lapel pin to demonstrate their support for the women of valor, the military women. But the brooch, obviously, you would imagine, and I do wear mine because uh that's my job now, is to bring awareness to all of these incredible women that have served and are serving today. And, you know, this country needs to be defended well into the future. And with an all-volunteer force, we're celebrating, you know, just celebrating the 50th anniversary of everybody volunteering. You can't cut off 50% of the population and expect that our defense is going to be where it needs to be. And we bring a very special and unique skill set on how we multitask, how we look at problem sets. The diversity of thought amongst just one gender is tremendous. So why wouldn't you amplify that by bringing men and women with this huge diversity of outlook on life, educational backgrounds, and ways they look at the view of the world? So that's what I think the future of the military is going to be.

SPEAKER_03 38:53

Yeah, I I could not agree more. And I will say, as a spouse, I've always felt like absolute, you know, sort of solidarity with women that my husband has served with. And um, you know, I've I've never felt anything negative, any, any, you know, sort of like please, if you if you have a friend on deployment that it doesn't matter who the what their background is, that's great. It's good to have a friend. You know, I mean, I think um, you know, the world we live in today, that that some of these old stereotypes have just gotta be lost. And um, and I think honestly, I I would say as a call-out, I mean, I think, you know, military female military spouses have a responsibility to to help support that. You know, here we are in Women's History Month, like that, that we should be so proud to be connected to a military that has, you know, people like us doing amazing things, just like men are. I mean, that that that should be an absolute no brainer. So um, yeah, that's that's um it's thank goodness you guys exist and are have such a prominent position to remind people. So is there anything that we have not asked that that we want to make sure we get uh we get you know put out?

SPEAKER_02 40:00

There is a new project we're launching this month, first time ever, and it's called Adopt a Woman Veteran Project. What we have received in the 30 plus years that the foundation has been open, now the memorial has been open 27, but before that, women were already registering and putting their stories into the national database. And we've seen it kind of dry up. The women of World War I and World War II and Korea and Vietnam, they understood they were a rarity, and but their story needed to be held in safekeeping somewhere, and they knew it was us. Now, the younger women, because they see so many other women, they don't seem to think that it's special enough that their story needs to go in there. So that's one. We're asking women that are alive and well to put their stories in, but the Adopt a Woman Veteran Project, we've received thousands and thousands and thousands of obituaries that state that that woman was in the military. And sadly, when Americans mail those to us, they must think we have a massive team that we can just sit there and fat finger all of that data into the computer, and we don't. So now we're asking people to go to our website, women's memorial.org, find the Adopt a Woman Veteran Project, and then contact us if you want to, but we need your pledge that we'll send you that obituary, but you're going to do some research for us. You're going to look on Ancestry.com, find a grave, you're going to Google them, you're going to look everywhere. Do some detective work because what story you put in our database for her is probably what will be found 100, 200 years from now. So make her come to life. Give her breath for again. Because we say people are only truly dead when nobody says their name. So help us say their name, and you can simply go to women's memorial.org, adopt a woman veteran, and uh and do some sleuth work and bring her story to us.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

That is so amazing. And what an unbelievable call to action for our community and and for you know women, men, everyone, patriots, because this is uh at the end of the day, you know, we we have patriotic stories out there that that people should know and that can inspire another generation to fill the unbelievably necessary ranks of an all-volunteer force. So I think, yeah, um, what an incredible opportunity. So women's memorial.org. Well, this has been such an amazing conversation, so inspiring, and um I'm so happy that we we have this call out specifically to uh to what you're doing and to how uh we can make sure that more and more people know about both these stories and make sure that they check out uh the Military Women's Memorial. Um, as many of us in our community do go and pay our respects um at Arlington. So um another incredible way to be a patriot and remember those who've gone before us and those who are still going. So thank you so much, Phyllis Wilson, and uh we hope to talk to you again soon. Thank you. Appreciate it. In each episode of season two of Vetted Conversations, we're featuring an organization that's part of our Vet the Vote coalition. Today in the studio, Lindsay Knight, the chief impact officer of Blue Star Families, joins us. Lindsay is a self-described applied social impact geek with over 10 years' experience. She has a PhD in political science from the University of Chicago, and she spent some time in the private sector leading a global equity strategy for a multinational firm. She now figures out how to motivate people to strengthen the military community. Lindsay, welcome. Thank you. I'm thrilled to be here.

SPEAKER_06 43:44

Always love chatting with you both.

SPEAKER_01 43:46

So where are you joining us from?

SPEAKER_06 43:48

I am joining you from just outside of San Francisco. I live about 20 minutes up the mountains from Palo Alto.

SPEAKER_01 43:54

Nice. And uh we were chatting before because she's in the mountains and it's summertime, she's got a space heater on in her office right now.

SPEAKER_06 44:02

I turned it off for the podcast. I don't want any background noise, but yeah, it's uh it's a running joke with my team that like everyone else is enjoying like the ambient, wonderful, warm temperatures of summer. And I'm like, it's 49 at my house. Um, but the view is lovely. So it's a you know trade-off.

SPEAKER_03 44:16

Well, so so while you're while you're warming up, can you literally and and figuratively, um, can you tell us a little bit um about you know what the Blue Star family's mission and and you know what the goals of the organization are?

SPEAKER_06 44:29

Yeah, absolutely. Uh so Blue Star Family's mission, we empower military families to thrive as they serve. Uh, we're committed to strengthening military families by connecting them uh with their neighbors and creating vibrant communities of mutual support. Uh that's obviously our boilerplate, but it is the thread through absolutely everything that we do, whether that is programs, research, community engagement, our chapter model, how we build digital tools and use human-centered design to meet our members where they're at. Um also just because I know this entire sector, a lot of people are um VSO or MSO, we're both. Um we serve that entire spectrum of military-connected life, whether you're still on active duty or you have, or you are transitioning, or you are a veteran, or you are just part of the community that those individuals and families call home. Um so I would say undergirding all of that, um, our primary goal is to increase a sense of belonging and community connection that our militaries um feel in the communities that they call home.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Yeah, that's awesome. Really important work. I I'm we we're stationed in Virginia Beach, which is a huge community of of the Navy. And still most people, of course, around us are not military connected families. So um that's something that we constantly have to remind remind ourselves of. So, what challenges do you think are core? I mean, both from your incredible research, but also just from the the you know the communities that you serve. What challenges do you see that are facing the military today? Like what are the core things people are talking about?

SPEAKER_06 45:57

Yeah, uh, well, actually, to build off what you were just saying, the the perfect segue to that is that the military today is not the military of 50 years ago. Um, and 70% of our military families don't live on base anymore and they move every two to three years. Um, so that really creates or has the potential to create um, or plant the seeds, if you will, uh, for isolation and social disconnection, which is, regardless of if you're in the military or not, not great for social determinants of health. It's not great for the development of your children, it adds um uh it adds tensions to your marriage. Um so we want to solve for that uh and in doing so create a more robust and resilient all-volunteer force in the long term. Um it is a uh it's a phrase I was not familiar with prior to Blue Star Families, um, but certainly one that I've become familiar with, which is that you recruit the service member and you retain the family. And if the conditions aren't there to retain the family, you don't retain the service member. Um, so we really view those efforts as working um hand in hand. Uh but in terms of other challenges, um there's obviously the domestic side and the things that we can do to shore up um how military families are experiencing military life. Um but globally, I I mean it would be remiss if we didn't discuss the ever-changing uh sort of global nature and instability in geopolitics because that directly affects the readiness and stability of our force. Um we're in our 50th year or 50th anniversary of the all-volunteer force, and as I mentioned, it's a very different force today than it was um 50 years ago. Um we also know we're entering that new stage of global insecurity. Um, increased deployments and a military community that needs to be supported in order for a country to be able to successfully defend democratic values, US interests, our allies on a potentially multi-front basis in the very new future. Um so we view um it's both a challenge, but there are bright spots, uh, particularly as it relates to that military connected community and civilian connection. Um you mentioned our you mentioned our research, uh and a huge shout out to Dr. Jessica Strong. Um she's uh she leads our applied research team. She's also a delightful human. Um and we recently partnered with Ugov to do um sort of a pulse poll on civilian sentiments around military families. Uh and there's some really good news in there, particularly related to the challenges that I that I just went over. So first off, military families, it turns out, are one of the most trusted institutions in America with a 90% trust or favorability rating. Um, for comparison point Congress is in the low 30s. Um like 90 is is legitimately nothing to sort of cough or uh scoff at. Um and we also know, in addition to that um trust and favorable viewing of their lifestyle, frankly, as service, um, we know that two-thirds of Americans think that the US will be involved in a major conflict in the next three to five years. And that same percentage said that military families play a crucial role in the mission readiness of the US military. So we know the support exists out there. We also know it's not partisan. And uh the other part that we asked in the survey was uh um if the US civilian population felt that military families play a central role in our country's national security, and 55% said yes, along with the, and this is my last stat, I swear. Um, 71% agreed that America Americans have a responsibility to care for those families. Um so we view it as central to Blue Star Families' um mission to close that gap between military-connected families and their civilian neighbors. And there's the this is this recent study just gives us a lot of data-backed evidence that like it's just a matter of connecting the dots as opposed to to convincing people this is uh a worthwhile mission or central to um you know patriotism in our country.

SPEAKER_03 49:58

Yeah, I mean, you know, obviously the the the stats that you that you guys just got are um precisely the stats that we we were you know kind of going. Um the obviously your your data is relatively new, but it's based on um the Veterans Civic Health Index and some of the the data that's gone before it, and that's exactly where why we started um that the vote, you know, because of that incredible trust um that people you know put in our community. I know Joe, you were you were gonna ask something though.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

Yeah, no, I was gonna say, I think, you know, we're talking to Mike Johnson in a previous episode, the author of fixing Congress, like approval ratings for Congress have dipped into like single digits lately. So, you know, that's pretty amazing. But you know, um it's it's an interesting thing because like when I was a single Marine, uh I kind of had one view of the importance of like why is the Marine Corps paying so much attention to families. And then when I got married to a Marine and my wife deployed to Iraq for the first time, and I was the person back home, I had an entirely new appreciation of what that dynamic's like and uh really started to understand. Like I went to the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit spouses events as a as a major, right? Like, um, but you know, just to better understand that that part of it. Um But could you give us some examples? Like, you know, um we know we know about your research, but like what does Blue Star families do uh as far as like programs and services go?

SPEAKER_06 51:17

Oh, that is one of my that is one of the things that brought me to Blue Star Families. Um so it really runs the gamut. Um, as I mentioned earlier, the entire mission of Blue Star Families is to increase the sense of belonging for our military connected families. For anyone who's a social science research nerd out there, uh you cannot increase sense of belonging in like a year. It's a it's a multi-year longitudinal tracking thing. It is not a one point of contact that makes someone feel more connected, but you can create a um you can create a path and a set of like steps and systems to get an individual or or a family to that to that deeper sense of belonging. So that's really our sort of theory of change with our programs. Um we have single drop-in programs, coffee connects, um, if you will, that like zero commitment. Um you go in, you're new to a neighborhood, you meet people in your community, you can ask questions about, you know, the school system, or where's your favorite grocery store, or um we have a lot of feedback from uh um uh underrepresented uh families and finding those communities where they can ask, like, where's a barber shop that I can go to, or um, where can I buy this ingredient from you know, uh sort of a culturally relevant recipe that might not be available in the communities that they call home. So our programming runs a spectrum from like drop in and have a cup of coffee to cohort programs that are anywhere from six to eight weeks long where we do, we we really nurture community within those cohorts, but also try to connect them to a broader community. So we have programming for caregivers, we have um outdoors programming uh across the US, we have career and workforce development support for military spouses. Um and then it goes, that's sort of the the middle tier of our engagement. And then the very top um is really uh the highly intensive cohort-based, non-clinical but close work that we do around um uh uh mental health, socio-emotional determinants of health. Um we have partnered with the VA on um suicide prevention uh models and efforts, particularly within within the veteran community and more specifically the veteran-connected community. Um, Blue Star Families is not a direct service provider, um, and we're not providing clinical services. But our theory of change for our suicide prevention work, for example, is that if we can embed resources into communities that veterans are already living in, before a mental health crisis happens, we have people that are sort of like the first watch and can can maybe um intervene and make sure that those uh mental health crises aren't happening. So it's a really robust programming portfolio. And then we also engage with folks in our um online digital neighborhood uh just to create connections. If you're not um if you're new to a community, who do you find who lives there? Um where what are trusted sources of information? And then both our neighborhood and all of our national programs do have iterations in our in our chapters nationwide. Um so that's our our boots on the ground, if you will. So whole host of ways to engage.

SPEAKER_01 54:23

Well, that's an important function too, because like you know, if you've I mean it it broadens out to greater national security concerns. One of the attracting new members to any organization is hard, retaining the ones that you have is imperative. So I think you know, the better job that the Department of Defense does at accommodating the needs of military families and retaining the talent that they have, I mean, that goes a long way to the strength of the force. And alongside that is like the reputation of the veteran community, right, as kind of like the one number one recommender of military service to young people. Um you know, we really need to seriously defend our reputation, and I think it's kind of what you know, we the veterans and even vet the vote's about, right? You know, like protecting uh the reputation of the veteran community, because um, you know, it's gone a little bit sideways in recent history. So Ellen, do you want to talk about vet the vote?

SPEAKER_03 55:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So so you know, obviously there's the the synergy of the trust barometer um we talked about, but you know, can you can you just give just a little insight on you know why you guys joined the vet the vote coalition?

SPEAKER_06 55:24

Well, I'll I will answer from a completely personally biased perspective first, um, and then I will answer from the far more substantive and organizational mission one. Um sorry, I I also kid, it's like bias in the good way. I'm uh as you mentioned in the intro, I have a PhD in political science. My um focus areas were actually dem democratic accountability and a focus on institutional change. Um I am absolutely fascinated and also love democratic um institutions, and they are the backbone to the civic and social health of our country. Um, so anyone who's from from a 40,000-foot view of both my background as well as our organization's mission, um, we are committed to weaving a stronger social and civic fabric across our country. Um, we also view that work as inherently nonpartisan. Voting as an institution is inherently nonpartisan because it is the institution through which you exert those um democratic freedoms. So there's just there's there's a whole host of reasons, even though we don't, we don't necessarily do voting engagement or civic participation or patriotic participation and you know, scare quotes, if you will. Um it's just it's it's the same fundamental uh yeah outlook, I guess, on the on the health of our nation.

SPEAKER_03 56:42

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we love we love getting uh the poly sign nerd view because um we're you know as as part of an incredibly important institution, the the military, uh as a military family member, you know, we uh I I know that we have a responsibility to maintain the strength of that institution, right? Like that's what all of us are are here doing. Um and we of course feel the same way about all the other institutions of our of our of our country and our government. You know, we can we can be frustrated at Congress, we can be frustrated at you know bureaucracy, but at the end of the day, it's a heck of a lot better than the alternative of not having uh those those those things. Um so that's that's definitely where we come from. Well, this was awesome. We are so glad, you know, obviously as as we the veterans and military families is trying to make sure that um wherever people live, they understand the opportunity to volunteer as a poll worker. Um we we know that there are some states actually where military spouses don't even have to be registered in uh in the state to work as a poll worker. There's not many, but there's a few. Um and um we we know that so because we know that some people kind of vote in their home of record and and you know don't change their vote of registration. So that opportunity exists. There's also, I live in the state of Virginia where um I know that if if needed, people who live in one part of the state can work as a poll worker in another part of the state just because of of need. So uh there's a lot of military families here with me. Um but thank you so much for for joining us, and we we we deeply, deeply appreciate the partnership with Blue Star Families as a member of the coalition. Thank you so much for listening. If you found this podcast episode interesting or useful, please share it with the people you know. This episode was co-hosted by Joe Plensler and Ellen Gustafson. The audio and video were edited by King's Collab Studios. This podcast is a production of We the Veterans and Military Families, 501c3 not-for-profit, nonpartisan, veteran and military spouse-led organization, focused on promoting positive and patriotic civic engagement to strengthen American freedom and liberty. Find out more about us at we the veterans.us and follow us on social media.