The Last Adam

In our first episode, my guest Kathryn and I discuss the three views of human nature. We take a closer look at the fall of Adam and Eve and it's effects on humanity. 

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the restless theologian podcast, where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack. In our first episode, we will be discussing the first and last Adam, and my guest for today is my girlfriend, Kathryn. Hello, Kathryn. Hello.

How are you? Good. How are you today? Pretty good. Good.

Are you excited for this episode? I am. A little nervous, but excited. Good. Good.

So today we're gonna be talking about, we're gonna start with man's nature. Okay. And the understanding from the church's view and the world's view of what we believe about man's nature to be. Now there are 3 main views in which, most people kinda have an understanding of the human nature, and I want to run through those views really quickly. And, the first one is that man was born inherently good.

This was a French philosopher's idea that by Jean Jacques Rousseau, and the next view is that of John Locke. He believed that man was born with a blank slate. And then, of course, we have Saint Augustine. He believed that man was born into a fallen state and that he inherited original sin. So I want to take a few moments to kind of discuss with you the fall, kind of maybe the implications of it and and maybe how some people even within the church who maybe might not have a correct understanding of the fall.

I feel like that there are some people out there that don't know if they can get on board with man being born inherently sinful. Yeah. Yep. Yes. Obviously, I think you and I agree that, you know, we're more along with the Saint Augustine understanding of original sin.

Something that we can talk about first, though, before we get more into original sin is, Adam and Eve, the state in which they were before the first sin, which was in complete communion with God and, you know, their original state of justice and holiness. And something I recently was thinking about in regards to Adam and Eve is, you know, would they have even committed that first sin or fallen if the serpent hadn't tempted them. And it's kind of like an interesting thought. I mean, I I think that they probably would have eventually at some point, but it is just interesting to think about. Yeah.

I think whether or not the fall of Satan and his angels, if that by default, caused that chain of events where, you know, he tempts Adam and Eve rather than, you know, had he not done that, you know, would Adam and Eve be the only 2 people that exist, and would they still have that perfect communion with God and maybe not even have that desire or curiosity to even break God's commandment. Mhmm. And now the devil and his angels, they did have free will in the beginning in the sense that they had freedom and the ability to choose to fall and rebel against God. Now, the Bible does talk about there being elect angels, So you get this idea in scripture that God preserved them from falling. So whether or not that that impacts their ability to have true freedom in the same way, I guess, is a is a whole other question because it's like if God preserved them, were they did they have freedom of will or freedom of choice to go along with Satan?

But, I mean, obviously, that, you know, you get into It's a whole other discussion. Yeah. It's a whole other discussion we can talk about. But with them, with, the devil and his angels having free will and choosing to fall, Obviously, there's a correlation there with Eve having, like, the freedom of choice and suffering from the fall when the serpent had tempted them, tempted Eve first and then Adam. And Yeah.

It is interesting to think about, like, even the differences between the angels falling, the or the angels that fell, and then also Adam and Eve falling, there is no redemption for those angels that have fallen. But when it comes to humanity, God, you know, we do have a redeemer And, you know, I think it's because he made us in his likeness and image. And I think that's why he gave us a redeemer. Yeah. It's a really good point because Arthur Pink does bring up this topic as well saying that that God did not send his son in the form of an angel to redeem the angels, but he sent him in the the likeness of sinful flesh to redeem mankind.

Mhmm. Yep. Yeah. Because if you think about angels are more like like spirit, and obviously, we are spirit and body. We are made of spirit and body.

So, I mean, I guess that would be the main difference between us and angels. Yeah. That's an interesting thought. Anything to do with it. Yeah.

So what you're you're saying is you think that it's possible that they don't have, like, physical bodies, but just more of just being spiritual bodies? Mhmm. Yeah. Because I know I don't I haven't studied much of that, but that's just my thought right now. Yeah.

I mean, because, because man, since he was born or he was created and then obviously afterwards, they're born with a soul and a body, and they're supposed to be in harmony with one another. And I think that there was even a heretical sect of Christianity or a heretical sect within Christianity, in the early church that believes that that everything that is spiritual and the spirit is good, but everything that is physical and bodily is evil. And now I don't I don't recall the name of the heresy offhand. Yeah. But, I mean, that is a that was an interesting topic, and I think one in which that they didn't have a true or proper understanding of how God created man Yeah.

To have both body and soul. Now, speaking of body and soul, when Adam and Eve fell, you know, I think that God pronounces a judgment on Adam and Eve and then also a curse on the serpent and the serpent's seed. Now I wanted to read, Genesis 3 14 through 15 just so we can get a little bit of background of the narrative that's given to us by Moses. The lord god said to the serpent, because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field. On your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.

I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring. He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise his heel. So going back on your three views of man's nature that you had described earlier. And when you and I were talking about Saint Augustine being the one that, you know, obviously we agree with original sin and, how Adam and Eve transmits original sin to the rest of humanity. So I understand that's something that a lot of people in the church have a hard time understanding just how it's handed down to all of us, the rest of humanity from Adam and Eve.

Almost a lot of people think it's unfair that it happened that way or that's, you know, how it is. And I even had a conversation with a friend of mine once who she just couldn't understand how a newborn baby could be said to have been born with original sin, and they haven't even done anything yet. And I think that's, you know, something to discuss in regards to original sin and actual sin. Yeah. Because I think that, a lot of people do have difficulty with that, I think even people within the church, and it can be like, well, I I'm not guilty of this.

It's not something I did, so why am I being held accountable for the actions of another? And this is where the idea of corporate personality comes into play. I was reading an interesting book by, James Hamilton junior on typology, and he brings up corporate personality. And it's this idea of, like, the collective being represented by the individual or maybe even vice versa, where you have Adam as being the representative head of the human race. And just to give you an idea, like, there's the first man, Adam.

You know, sometimes in scriptural talk about Adam or the first man, and then it's also meaning mankind or vice versa. Or Jacob, the actual individual, Israel, they'll talk about him being Israel, but then also the nation Israel or Christ or Christ's people. Just to give you an example of that with, Christ's people, in acts 94, when Jesus is talking to Saul, he says to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? And even though Saul was technically persecuting the Christ's church, Jesus says, why are you persecuting me? Because there's that idea of corporate personality Mhmm.

Where you have one representing the many. Yeah. I definitely think that's a good way of explaining the whole understanding of transmitting original sin, to the rest of humanity. So I definitely understand and get that. Yeah.

The sin is imputed, to his offspring, essentially. And Paul brings up this topic, and I feel like he expresses it pretty clearly. In Romans 5/19, he says, for as by the one man's disobedience to many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience to many will be made righteous. And the one man's disobedience obviously being a reference back to the first Adam and the fall, and then the one man's obedience being Jesus Christ being obedient in his life and death to the father. So that kind of leads us into another interesting idea that I was presented in the book about the idea of Adam being a prototypical man.

And a prototype is essentially like a first, a first model, the first model man. And you have also too, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being ek types are kind of like copies who also kind of are foreshadowing the one to come, which would be Jesus Christ, and he is the final fulfillment or the last Adam and the antitype. And an antitype is essentially the opposite of someone else. So, he is in a way very similar to Adam, but also the opposite in the sense of what he accomplished. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. I love that. I've always enjoyed reading. I mean, I've never read that book that you were just referencing, but I love the idea of all the different typologies throughout the Bible, connecting the Old and the New Testament Yeah.

And, and all the, you know, main characters, if you wanna put it that way, leading up to Christ and being types of Christ. Yeah. Because Adam was in a sense, a king, and a priest. A king in the sense that, you know, he had dominion over creation and then and a priest in the sense that he, you know, had direct communion with God. And I think that, so in a way that he kind of foreshadowed the one true king, Christ, because Christ fulfills those roles of not only being a king but also a high priest, you know, in the order of Melchizedek, and in a sense that, you know, his priesthood will be everlasting.

And I think that Abraham, in a sense, too represents a king and a priest because a king wages war, and that's something that Abraham did. But a priest also offers sacrifices, and that's something that Abraham did as well. So you see that sort of prefiguring in the egg types, looking towards, you know, the one true one to come that would perfectly encompass or perfectly take on those roles. And so that kind of helps us understand who Christ is and what he's come to do. So going along with what you said about the prototype being Adam, he was tempted in the garden and he committed the first sin, which then brought about physical and spiritual death to all of humanity.

And comparing that to Christ, who is the antitype, he also was tempted in the desert but was victorious and did not give into temptation. And because of his perfect life that he lived, he, through his death and resurrection, brought spiritual life and our bodily resurrection. Yeah, I think that the bodily resurrection is an important part of Christ's mission because in John 6, Jesus mentions that he's come to do the father's will and that the father's will is that he should lose none of all that that God the father has given him and raise it up, but raise it up on the last day. And he talks about giving them, everlasting or eternal life. So he is restoring.

He's restoring our immortality, which was lost through the fall, our immortality and as well as our communion with God. And I actually think another thing I just thought of, I think the communion with God, even after our bodily resurrection, will be even greater than what it would have been when he first created humanity. And I think it's because he sent Jesus to be like us. Yeah. You know, it's just kind of crazy to think about God became a human being who became like us.

And I think that makes communion with him even greater because he became like us. And since we're in Christ, we have that perfect union with him. And I think that in at the beginning, man had the ability to fall and sin, but in glorification, I think that mankind will not have the ability to sin. So we'll have greater union with God because he'll take away from us our desire or our ability to sin. Yes.

It will be perfected. I guess our freedom would be perfected to where it couldn't sin. Yeah. Since true freedom is found in Christ. Yes.

Yeah. And I think that that freedom was prophesied in the beginning when God the father is declaring a judgment on Adam and Eve for the sin of eating from the forbidden tree because I'll just go through the first, and and we'll kind of unpack it. Genesis 3 14 through 15, The Lord God said to the serpent, because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field. On your belly, you shall go, and dust, you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman and between your offspring and her offspring, and he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.

And in this passage, god is pronouncing a curse on the serpent as well as the serpent's seed, and he says that he'll put enmity between the woman's seed and the serpent's seed. And so there's gonna be this hostility and this friction that's gonna be ongoing. And and in this, there's a foreshadowing being spoken about the coming of Christ because Christ is the seed of the woman who's going to come and crush the head of the serpent. Now he does that by undoing all the damage that the serpent has done by convincing Adam and Eve to fall. So when Christ comes, he conquers over and crushes or bruises the head of the serpent kind of signifying a death blow, while the serpent, representing the devil, was only able to bruise the heel of the seed of the woman.

And there's another dimension that we can look at this through, and that would be the curse that's pronounced upon the serpent, by God. And you could see that, transmitted down the line where after Cain kills his brother Abel, God pronounces a curse on Cain. And then again, another curse is pronounced on Ham, which is Noah's son for what he he did seeing his father's nakedness. And from there, Ham's son, Canaan, was also cursed. And this is obviously where we get the Canaanites.

And the Canaanites were considered cursed ones. So even going back to the beginning in Genesis, you know, about there being enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent, Cain, Ham, Canaan, they're all kind of signified by being seed of the serpent because of the curse, which kind of makes sense why Abraham, when he sent his messenger to get a wife for Isaac in Abraham's homeland, he tells him to not pick a wife out of the Canaanites. And that makes sense because he, you know, he would have known or seen that the Canaanites were of the cursed ones. And even when the Israelites take over the promised land, who do they take it from? They take it from the Canaanites.

So, I also think that there's another, you know, another way of looking even at that is so you see a physical element to it, an actual, like, physical reality, physical people, but you also see that there's the way of looking at it as this ongoing battle between the good and the evil, between the elect and the reprobate. Yeah. Like there's 2 camps, 1, the elect and 1, the reprobate. Yeah. So one is going to side with Christ and be on God's side, and one's going to side with Satan and the, you know, the serpent and be on the devil's side.

So that would be another aspect of this. Yeah. And I can't help but notice the similarities between, Genesis 3 when God speaks to the serpent telling him that he will put enmity between him and the woman and between his offspring and her offspring, Correlating this with what is in, Revelation in chapter 12 when they're speaking of the woman that John is seeing in heaven, and correlating that because I believe that woman can be referred to as Mary and obviously Mary gave birth to Jesus and it speaks in verse 17 in Revelation that the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. But yeah, I always found it interesting the similarities between those two books on this topic, between Genesis and Revelation. Just wasn't sure what your thoughts were on that.

Yeah. The book of Revelation, I definitely think it's one of the more Hebrew books of the New Testament, just with its imagery, and it sounds as if it's written by an old testament prophet, just in the language that's being used and also the, the beast, you know, such as a dragon. And I can also think that that the woman that's being referenced that the that the dragon is going after could be the nation of Israel because it talks about the woman having a crown of, 12 stars, and that makes me think of the 12 tribes of Israel. Yeah. And I agree because I think in Revelation, it is a lot of like 2 fold meaning with, the woman representing not only Israel the nation but also Mary.

Yeah, I could see that, because we have both the dragon and the serpent that are representing the devil. But, yeah, speaking of 2 fold meanings, I think it's kind of especially in a book like that that's a lot more, figurative and there's a lot of hidden meaning in it. I could see how things could have twofold meanings. But I think it's interesting how to understand that because I know that, the theologian like John Owen, he has a comment about how, if the bible has more than one meaning, it has no meaning at all. And so I I sort of get what he's saying just about how you know, like, it it does have one fixed truth.

And I think the purpose of him bringing that up is most likely, to try to avoid any sort of heresy within the church where people interpret scripture incorrectly, and start just forcing their preconceived notions onto scripture and not really evaluating a lot of different things, like taking into consideration things like typology, just the context of scripture, the time period it's in, who the author is speaking to. You know, a lot of these different variables come into play, and I think it's important to weigh them to be able to understand or ascertain the true meaning of scripture. And, yeah, I mean, that's why I think the Bible is just so amazing, just with all the compiled books together. And, you know, I could read stuff from scripture, something I read like 5 years ago. And when I read it again today, I'll find things that I didn't even pick up on 5 years ago.

Or, I'll understand it a little bit more clearly just based on stuff that you and I have read together or have read in early church fathers. And, you know, it's amazing how you continue to learn from the Bible throughout your life. I mean, it doesn't matter how old or young you are. I just find it amazing. Yeah.

Yeah. For sure. I think that the bible grows with you. Like, I don't think that we can I don't think that we can master the bible because I feel like that there's always something to be learned, something to be gained by it? And I think what helps is having other theologians that have gone before, being able to read what they have written or said and and, getting insight from that as well as, you know, more importantly, the holy spirit kind of, allowing you to see things in scripture that you didn't see before.

Mhmm. And I think a part of that has to do with, you know, being diligent in your study and praying on it as well, and I think that, you know, some of these things that may have been less clear or hidden become more apparent. And we see that throughout the scriptures in just a few instances. For example, in Matthew 16 when Peter makes the profession that, you know, Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, and Jesus' response to him is, you know, blessed are you Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hasn't revealed this to you, but my father who is in heaven. So you have the father revealing a spiritual truth about who Christ is to Peter.

And you see this in other areas of the Bible too where there's a passage about Christ opening the disciples' minds so that they can understand the scriptures. And I think that that's a very important part of just understanding that and who this knowledge comes from. Yeah. Yeah. There is another quote that I really like, and I don't know if I remember it word for word, but Arthur Pink has something about how, you know, about the Bible not being designed for lazy people.

And I think it's important for us as Christians to not be lazy, but really, work in the sense of, like, working for the truth and trying to understand it to the best of our ability. Even though we might not be able to understand everything, I think it's important that we have the humility to know that we don't know everything and that there's still a lot to be learned. Yeah. And I think even just with you and I, all the discussions we've had in the past, just both of us coming from different backgrounds, I think that's even helped us grow closer to Christ, just because we're learning from each other. You know, obviously, you've taught me more on, you know, reading scripture more regularly on a regular basis, not just on Sundays at church.

And I'm very grateful for that because it's just, it's helped increase my faith. And I know you have said similar things to me about, you know, me helping you dive deeper into understanding the sacraments and what they mean and reading more of the early church fathers. Yeah. I've definitely appreciated and enjoyed the conversations that we've had, and I feel like that having those conversations, even at points at which we, you know, don't always agree, I felt like that we've always, grown in our faith because of it and just become more knowledgeable in those areas. And I'm really looking forward to, you know, having you on again and, you know, being able to discuss another topic that we're both fairly interested in, and that topic would be predestination.

I think that More like that's like your number one topic. Yeah. I I would definitely say that that's, you know, all conversations lead to that. I will say you have kind of helped me understand predestination a little bit better than what I, you know, thought of it before, but it'll still be a very interesting conversation that you and I will have. Yeah.

I'm really looking forward to unpacking that with you and just being able to, go through some of the points where we agree and disagree. And and, you know, I'm really looking forward to having you on again. Thanks for joining us. Yeah. Thank you.

And thank you to our listeners for taking the time to check out the first episode of The Restless Theologian. Along with the episode with Kathryn coming up about predestination, we also have, 6 other episodes planned where we're going to be discussing such topics as theophany, definite atonement, justification, and others. So please tune in.