In our third episode, my guest Ben Beaver and I discuss the sinister vice of pride. We take a look at it's presence in the world today and on an individual level. We dive deeper into the virtue of humility and how it should be a defining attribute of a Christian.
In our third episode, my guest Ben Beaver and I discuss the sinister vice of pride. We take a look at it's presence in the world today and on an individual level. We dive deeper into the virtue of humility and how it should be a defining attribute of a Christian.
Hello and welcome to the Restless Theologian podcast where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host Zechariah Eshack. Well, in our 3rd episode, we're going to be discussing pride and humility. And for today's episode, I'm excited to have on with me my friend, Ben Beaver. Oh, man, dude.
Blessed by the best. I'm doing great. It's, it's fun to be with you in spirit because we're actually in 2 different locations. Yeah. But, man, I love modern technology that I can be sitting at my, kitchen table talking to you.
Yeah. For sure. For sure. I figured I would start off this conversation by, just quoting one of my favorite early church fathers, and we can kinda go from there, if that sounds good to you. Sounds great.
Okay. So, Augustine had, he had said that it was pride that changed angels into devils, and it is humility that makes men as angels. And I really did like that quote, and I kinda wanted to get your take on it. Man, it's just like like all of Augustine's, you know, especially the quotes that have lasted over the ages. It's it unpacks a lot like a lot like poetry unpacks.
Yeah. Would you mind actually reading it one more time, so I can give you a real good comment on it? It can go by really fast. So if you don't mind reading that again, that'd be awesome. Yeah.
No problem. It's, it was pride that changed angels into devils, and it is humility that makes men as angels. Yeah. Augustine man dropped the mic. Yeah.
He, so even that concept of of, you know, like, what are we talking about there when it comes to, you know, demons and and angels. And that's really really pointing back to before creation. Well, somewhere in the middle there, depending on, you know, where you get another podcast talking about that, Of when, you know, Lucifer being the, one of the head demons in, what was the world before, you know, he he he gave himself into pride. And really, it was from that pride that, he took what was it? 50% 50% of of heaven, and made angels into demons and kinda took him down took him down with him, you know, because he wanted to oppose God.
And and then the entire idea at what was the what was the second part where where you're talking about with men. Correct? Yeah. It's humility that makes men as angels. So true.
And and very rare to be around. Very few times have I felt like I've truly been around a humble humble person. Yeah. I remember, a, mentor friend of mine used to say that, like, if if somebody is actually super humble and truly humble, would you really know it? Like, I I know a lot of people that say, oh, that guy's super humble.
That guy's super humble. I'm like, well, why are you saying that if he's super humble? Yeah. Yeah. Like, by by by nature of definition, humility, I don't think we'd be talking about it.
Would we? Well, I mean, I guess the person themselves wouldn't be talking about it. I mean, I think that that's the ongoing joke about Moses, You know, somewhere in the Pentateuch, you know, he says that Moses was one of the most humble men that ever lived or at that time. And, so it's kind of a kind of a running joke, since he wrote, you know, wrote it. I love the the honesty and the humanity of of, the biblical writers.
And those are moments where you're like, okay, Moses. We got it. Yeah. For sure. And, yeah.
Because I I believe it's Ezekiel that talks about, you know, the devil falling, and it was because of pride and a little bit, you know, I'm sure, like, selfish ambition had a lot to do with it. But I think it was, you know, he took a I think it might be a third of the angels, with him. That's right. The 3rd. Yeah.
Not 5th not 50. That was totally wrong ratio right there. No. No. It's okay.
But I just love looking at the comparison and, you know, contrast in the bible, and I think that there is a pretty distinctive difference between Jesus and Christ when it comes to that subject about pride. Because in Philippians, this is Philippians 2:7 through 8, It says, but he emptied himself by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men and being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. And I just kind of love that because, I mean, it shows his humility and then, obviously, the devil's pride and just you can't you can't see a sharper, distinction there. Yeah. And it's, you know, that's that's a whole other podcast in itself of the the empty, you know, the emptying of himself.
Setting aside truly what was rightfully his. Yeah. And for us, as humanity, taking on that role of a servant, you know, I I think I think of in John where, you know, right after the, you know, the the Last Supper or the feet first communion, you know, Jesus gets down and, you know, he washes these people's feet. I mean, he he washed Judas's feet. Like, if that's not a picture of of, like, the craziest thing in the entire world.
Yeah. The person that was gonna betray him and literally just just just hours. And I think I think that that truly does, like, it typifies who who Christ was and really who we strive to be. Be as as as followers of Christ is we want to be the person that, you know, gets down, washes the feet. It's it's really interesting.
I came, I was actually licensed in, Grace Brethren as a pastor. And, I always joke around that it's Baptist with a kind of a funny baptism. And the focus was on that, that, foot washing being a part of communion. And I'm sure you're gonna do a podcast at some point about communion. That would be kinda fun.
Yeah. Yep. But I oh, go ahead. No. No.
It's okay. I was just gonna say that, yeah, I I definitely remember the because, I mean, the church that you were a part of, I remember going to, you know, another one of the branches and, you know, a guy I was friends with, I went to his wedding, and, you know, foot washing was a part of their, like, wedding ceremony. And that's just kind of, you know, a very a very important, place is is set on that. Obviously, so much so that they do it in their weddings. It's super awkward, actually.
Like, but beautiful at the same time. And I think in a lot of ways, that's that's like, humility does catch us off guard when we actually experience it. Yeah. That's where, you know, my my grandfather used to always say, he's like, man, I he's like, I'm the most humble person in the entire world and make sure you tell all your friends about it, you know? And I was I always used to laugh about it, but I I've heard it said that, you know, true humility, to experience that with somebody is feeling like you're the person that's actually being humble is looking at you right in the eyes and you'd feel like, man, that guy just really cares.
Yeah. He really actually cares. So even, you know, when we're starting to talk about this, this idea of, like, what is your theology on on pride? What is your theology on humility? I think they're very they're very simple to say, but very hard to explain.
Yeah. Like, how how do you how how would you even, if I'm allowed to pose a question on here, like how would you define exactly what humility is? Yeah. I mean, that's a I mean, that's a very good question. I I think I think a lot of different, philosophers and theologians have, you know, tried answering that question.
And, I guess from my own perspective, I mean, I see humility as being, you know, having that servant like mindset about, you know, serving other people so you're not focusing inward, when I feel like that's a very crucial part of pride is I feel like a lot of it is inward. And I think that that is where our culture places a lot of emphasis. You know, it's a lot about self love. It's about, always being proud, and, and I think that, I think that that is why our culture, a lot of people have so many problems as they do. And I I can tend to find this with myself as well, where, you know, I start stressing out more.
I start having more anxiety when I start focusing too much inward. But if I started focusing more, you know, projecting outward where I'm having, focusing on friendships, focusing on other people, asking how, you know, how they are, and and not so much fixating on my own self. I feel like it eases my anxiety because it's no longer, placed on myself. But to kind of answer your question, I would say humility is treating other people better than you treat yourself and seeking for their touch of that golden rule sort of feeling. Yes.
Sermon on the Yeah. Yep. And, like, just seeking their good even if it might not be easy, even if it might be difficult for you. Huge, man. I I love what, CS Lewis I'm a huge fan of CS Lewis.
My one of my sons is named Clive. That's what the c is in CS Lewis. Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Yeah.
And then most people don't and, it's hilarious having a son named Clive. But he says that humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking, thinking of yourself less. Yeah. So it's a little bit it's a little bit Yoda there sounding, but humility is not thinking less of yourself because I think there is a especially in Christian circles, and, there's a thing of like, well, I need to put myself down. I almost need to be, like, lesser than everyone else, but just thinking of yourself less.
Yeah. I I think that was actually that was at a mere Christianity. Here's a plug for CS Lewis. I know he's gone, but, you know, read that book. It's a good one.
Okay. Yeah. I've I've I've actually only read one CS Lewis book. It was The Great Divorce. I Yeah.
Don't even get me started on it. I love that book, man. We gotta stay on topic. Yeah. Yeah.
I I did enjoy it. I mean, I know CS Lewis is, you know, he was an Anglican and, you know, I think he from what I do know about him, he does lean more Armenian. So Oh, yeah. I mean, Go ahead. Yeah.
I mean, he was he bounced between Catholicism and, but like yeah, dude. It's very interesting. He he, this is my last CS Lewis part and then we'll jump into everything else. He had he had a saying once because he wrote a lot of children's literature, you know, lion, witch, and the wardrobe, which was, you know, connected then with, you know, Tolkien and Lord of the Rings and all that, like, as creative circles. But he used to talk about smuggling theology.
And I always thought that was such an interesting thing, where you must you more so like to talk about it directly on here, which is awesome. But I love that creativity and using that to smuggle theology. But anyways, back to Brian No. No. You're you're good.
You're good. Yeah. Wasn't he friends with Tolkien as well? So the story goes, man, that he, he very much so, like, kind of pushed his friend. There was a whole group of writers called the Inklings.
They were just guys that would come around, share share kind of their creative projects with each other, and, he was like he's like, hey. You know, c s Louis de Toquan was like, hey. I really think you need to finish this whole Lord of the Rings thing. I think you got something there. Yeah.
You know, then the greatest piece of litter or, you know, fiction literature was written. Like, good job, CS Lewis. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome.
But, yeah, I think, yeah, I think pride is one of those things that, I think it comes in many forms too. Like I could see it in my own life where anytime I make any sort of ground, like understanding theology, I have to try to be careful just because I'm like, oh, I learned something, and then I start to feel kind of prideful about it where I'm like, oh, I you know, you can tell in conversations when, you know, you're talking with someone you disagree with, and you're like, oh, I I feel like I might know more than them. And I think that that you're kind of on dangerous ground because, you know, you don't want to have that be the emphasis. It's not about you knowing more. You know what I mean?
And it and it feels good. I think I think that's a piece to be, you know, very honest. And as a theologian, it feels good to to have a grasp of knowledge because I I think it's something it's a gift that God gives, through His spirit, to people to be, you know, learners. Like, to go deep into learning because there's a insatiable desire to to go deeper. And and and really, we talked about this, before recording stuff.
You know, you you get in the like, you find something that you love and you get in deeper deeper. Man, I feel like I'm getting to know God in this very intellectual way, and I I believe that's a beautiful thing. Yeah. But we gotta be very careful at the same time because God isn't a textbook. He's a person.
Like and that's where, you know, some people might disagree with me on that, but it it's like we're getting to know the person of, you know, Christ through through the Bible. It's not, you know, it's people like, well, that's, you know, this is your what is it? This is your textbook for life kind of thing. I'm like, well, that's kinda missing it, you know? Like, that's it's not just accruing facts and being able to spit it out at people.
Like, that's not that would be prideful in my opinion. Yeah. Where, yeah. Go ahead. Oh, no.
You're okay. I I was just gonna, say that yeah. I think I could, from my own observance just with, you know, having grown up in the church, I definitely think that there's 2 different types of people. There's those people that are more analytical, more, more, like almost a little bit, they think more from an intellectual perspective and not so much emotionally. And then you have one side that's a little bit more, you know, they're more emotional, so they tend to really gravitate towards, like, worship music.
They really gravitate towards that stuff. And for them, I I think that there's dangers on both grounds where, you know, one side Isn't it? Yeah. One side's a little bit, you know, has that mindset where it almost becomes just emotion, and it's about me feeling good, and, there's a little bit too much emphasis on that. And sometimes they can, not really focus so much on theology and not really care about theology.
And I think that that's a huge mistake. Yeah. And then and then, what I would say is it's like most theology, you have to have a a healthy tension Because then on the other side of it, where you can be, you know, I I always heard the joke that, you know, about the trinity that it's the father, son, and holy Bible among my conservative friends, where literally it's just accruing facts. Yeah. And in both, I think, this this plays really well into what we're talking about today because both the fall within it is that it's based on pride.
Like, if the point point and purpose of learning something is to feel better about yourself or feel like you're higher than other people, well, that's that's that is what pride is. Yeah. Like and then, on the other side, if it's if it's, you know, all the the emotions and stuff and and it's just which are beautiful. Emotions are God given. Like, but if it just turns to, well, how does this scripture make me feel?
Well, you're kinda missing the point. It's not about you. Yeah. Like, and it's you know, I I come back to this verse, in James 4, which is actually it's referencing Proverbs, where it talks about God opposes the proud. It's Proverbs 334.
And it says, you know, God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble. And even even in that, I I think, sometimes, we think pride is something that we just deal with kind of on our own. But pride and the craziness of what pride is is we're actually defying God Almighty. That God opposes us the moment that we give in to that. Yeah.
And I I wanna say that yeah. I mean, like, building off of that about God opposing the proud, I think that, you know, there's this passage where Jesus says, you know, I thank you, father, that you've you've hidden these things from the wise and prudent, but you've revealed them to babes. And I I just I kinda love that just because, I've been reading a biography about, BB Warfield. Mhmm. Good day.
And I and I do what's that? He's a very good guy. Yeah. Yeah. I just love his.
Warfield. Yeah. I love his theology, and, and I think that there's a lot to that because the Pharisees themselves, I mean, they're probably one of the groups, the Pharisees and the Sadducees, one of the 2, you know, 2 of those groups that were that Jesus butted heads with the most, and I would say if there's one trait or characteristic that defined them, it would have been pride. And I think that that's why Jesus deals harshly with them and even says to them that, you know, because they appeal to Abraham as their father, and Jesus says, you know, if Abraham was your father, you would listen to me because I speak the truth. And he even says that they're that the Pharisees are sons of the devil.
And, I think that part of that is because of pride. 100% man. And you know, it's interesting you go back to Genesis 3, like it just came to mind when you were talking. I have a good friend of mine that's a pastor theologian and he says, his concept was that every all of sin actually originates with pride. Because when you look in into the story in the garden, you know, it's it's Genesis 3 where what do we choose?
You know, how did how did how did Satan, who who at that point was opposed to God and, you know, being proud? And I'm sure you could get oh, man. You get so much out of these first couple chapters. I hope you hit Genesis at some point. The creation narrative is, it's just gorgeous.
But but what does he use with Eve specifically? You know, like, I love the the little lie or the little lie, you know, like the very very persuasive. I'm like, did God actually say this? You know, you you shall you shall not eat of the tree in the garden. And the woman said to the serpent, we may eat the fruit of the trees in the garden.
So generalized, but God said, you shall not eat, the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it and lest you die. But the serpent said to the woman, you will not surely die, for God knows that when you eat of it, your eyes will be opened. And you will be like God, knowing good and evil. And it's in that moment that that the enticing part to her was, like, you're going to be like God. Yeah.
You're going to be your own God, basically, which is hugest in our culture right now. People don't say it that way. People say it's self actualization. People say that it's, you know, being the best me, living my best life. But all of that is pride.
And I think that's what shows up all the way throughout the entire narrative of the Bible. I mean, I mean, you know, name your Bible figure and there's a proud moment, you know. Like, you got Noah who did some great stuff and then gets, you know, blitzed after the entire world gets flooded. That's a bit of a weird move. Then, you know, Moses you you ever I forgot about that joke.
I love I love that. Yeah. Moses was the most humble man, and tell your friends about it. But then, very clearly, I mean, you see it within in the narrative with Saul, specifically, that you see his proud moments. Like, I think of, kind of a part of David and Goliath that a piece of the story that I don't know.
It doesn't get much focus time is right before he goes to the giant. Yeah. And it was always kinda I I remember watching Veggie Tales and, you know, other weird stuff like that. And it was like, oh, well, you know, the armor doesn't fit him, so he's just gonna go in the clothes that he knows. But I didn't realize that till we we were studying pretty deep, actually, in the college ministry that you and I were both involved in.
That what what Saul was doing was he was trying to get credit for it. Yeah. See, I I've never heard it. You know, I've never heard that, perspective before. So you think that he was, like, trying to pass it off that he was that it was him, but what would happen if, you know, he was killed?
Like, obviously, people would know that it wasn't him. It's true. It's true. But it's that level of, you know, perception, on things. And it's just, I mean, I'm I'm just going through examples.
I mean, David, of course, David's doing really good, then stays home from war, thinks he's got everything figured out on his own, and he falls into adultery. Why does he fall into adultery? Because he thinks he can hold on to his own purity, his own, you know, those pieces. And then, like you said, all the way up to the the Pharisees, which knew the Bible very well. Yeah.
Like, they were the best theologians of the time. Yeah. And I think that's where a good reminder for all the theologians out there that, like, we can be parasitical if we're we're not careful, you know. Yeah. And I and I think that I I think that a part of what the Pharisees, like attitude and perspective, one of the two aspects I like to look at or that I tend to notice when it comes to them is more often than not, they would when they're trying to focus on their righteousness and, you know, basically showing other people and telling other people how righteous they are, a lot of times that they would appeal to one of 2 things.
They would either appeal to we are sons of Abraham, so more from like a, like a bloodline, you know, genealogy perspective, and then they'd also appeal to their good works. And I think for me that that is, I think that I know that this is a whole another podcast episode, but, you know, the doctrine of truth This is the this is the episode that points to other episodes. Yeah. Yeah. Like the justification by faith alone.
I think that Yep. You know, there's some people that say that, you know, it was because I I did x, y, and z, and therefore, that's the reason of God choosing me instead of it being the other way around, that God chose them and then showing some humility. But even those people that do will initially agree with that. I'm like, oh, well, God chose me, you know, and gave me that initial grace, but then I have to maintain my justification by my good works. And I think that that is where a little bit of pride creeps in because it starts focusing more on yourself and more about your works rather than like what BB Warfield, you know, talks about how, you know, we are justified by works.
It's just it's Christ's works. And the only grounds for our justification and our rightness in the sight of God, when it comes down to it, we have nothing else to plead but Christ's works. And if we plead our own works, I think we're lost. Yeah. And it's, we were saying earlier, it's kind of the silent killer man pride.
Yeah. And, you know, in the macro of the entire Bible, we kinda talked about that. But then down to the micro of, you know, personally and all those things, it's it creeps in so quietly. Yeah. And I I don't think I've ever woke up woken up in the morning and said, man, I really wanna be prideful today.
It just, you know, it it's a it's it's it's kind of this thing that you drift into. It's not a, you know, everybody always uses the example like, well, I didn't kill anyone. Well, you gotta make a certain decision to kill someone. Pride, I feel like, is so quiet and so underneath everything. Yeah.
It creeps in. It creeps in. And, you know, but you look at everything from, you know, huge names and news and stuff like that of fallen pastors and, those are kind of the easy guys to be like, well that guy was prideful, we're just the same. We're just not on the same scale. Yeah.
Like, we we all love the sound of our own opinions. And I think it's something that it takes truly focusing in on the gospel. The gospel that we are completely wrecked without Jesus. There's nothing we can do on our own to earn anything, like, at all. Yeah.
And that that's where that's where humility starts. Yeah. And I think that that is where, just that maintaining that solid foundation about, like, grace and about, salvation being a free gift. Because I think that anytime we start, you know, focusing inward and being prideful, you know, either in our intellect or our works, I think that, you know, I I think that the devil does enjoy that we do that, because, you know, he's got us off off track. And, you know, and like you said, you know, that subtlety, it does creep in.
And I think that there that humility is something that should define us as Christians, and I see more and more that that's not something that, that you see a lot, especially in, like, a lot of the churches and a lot of, things going on today and a lot of, just just celebration of pride. And it's like as Christians, that's not something that we celebrate. Like, we should be humble, and because Christ was humble. And if he was humble, how you know, we should see we should always look to him as our example. So what kinda examples are you talking about?
Like, you say it's kinda all over the place in Christendom. With pride? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that, I I would say it's a little bit, you know, it can be kind of prevalent in, I think with obviously megachurches, the prosperity gospel, I think that, people can be pride even in their own churches.
I I get, you know, I've had discussions where, you know, sometimes it starts boiling down to that, you know, my church is better than your church. And as Christians That's a silly thing. Yeah. Well, and I think too, I think it's just that, you know, Sproul has this really good video on, you know, talking about being Catholic, evangelical, and Reformed. And I think My guy.
Yeah. That that catholicity is, in my opinion, and, it's that what separates and distinguishes Christianity from all other religions is that there is that true God man. He's both equally God and equally man, and when you read the apostle's creed, you read the Nicene creed, a lot of the emphasis about what it means to be Catholic is accepting and believing in the divinity of Christ. But, yeah, I mean, to get back to your initial question, I think with the with the whole pride thing, I think that, you do happen to see a lot of churches now that have been celebrating things and pushing for things that can't be so obviously against God's word. This isn't some things where it's like, oh, this is a difficult, doctrine, you know, like the doctrine of predestination or perseverance of the saints or, you know, or Image any of the in any of the 5 points.
Right? Yeah. Or just, you know, human human nature, you know, like that understanding, like, I I get why, you know, it's like some people think that we are in a weakened state, others that we're, you know, total total depraved state. And then you have, like, more of the orthodox that believe that, you know, if I had to put tears on it, the orthodox, I think that their view of sin and its effect on humanity, it's not even that. It's necessarily weakened humanity.
It's just that we have a susceptibility to sin. And then you have Roman Catholicism, which would say that man's nature is weakened by the fall, and then you have the reform that say, no man is dead, spiritually dead. So you know what I mean? Like you have those different tiers, and that's and you can see why even if you don't agree, like you can kind of sometimes see why they have that perspective. But then you have some a lot of modern church leaders that will just completely and proudly oppose blatant Christian teachings.
Yeah, man. And I guess to once again, to put out another tension there, like, I've been very involved in in megachurches and been a leader in prominent megachurch and all that stuff. And, yeah. That that stuff's pretty easy to see, when it's on scale. But I've also been involved in a lot of smaller church communities and Pride's man, it's just the same.
It sounds so weird, but like, I've seen, you know, very very proud people that are are prominent leaders in something and and seeing that out play. But I've also seen these small, you know, 20, 30, 50, 60 people churches where it's actually just as prideful. Yeah. I could I could see that. It it but it's not as loud, I guess, as is or, it's not on the stage Yeah.
The same way. And when that's another podcast, I could talk all day about that. But, like, at the end of it, like, it's a human problem. I don't believe it's a church size problem. I don't even think, you know, the debates between Calvinism, Arminianism, all that stuff.
Everyone, every person that is, you know, human deals with pride. Yeah. I totally agree. I think that that's just kind of innate in us that that's that's what we gravitate towards. And I think humility is opposite of what we opposite of what we naturally gravitate to.
No. It it literally has to be birthed within us through Christ. You know, that's that's the new creation that we're becoming. And, you know, it's not a, hey. I kicked pride.
You know what I mean? Like, I believe that there's there is just practically, there's sin that you you you can have victory over and like, hey, I'm not doing that anymore. But, like, pride, that's one that either you're fighting it or you're losing. There's no real, hey, I'm done fighting pride. At least I haven't found it yet, man.
Like, I think it's a constant giving away of, you know, not my will, but yours be done, lord. And even in that, the way that you go about it because the thing is so fascinating is it's like the moment that we feel like we're we've got something with humility, like, oh, man. I've kinda built up humility. We have a self righteousness to it. Yeah.
Yep. That is prideful. You're like, oh my gosh. Like and to me, man, I I'll tell you. I'm probably one of the simplest theologians at this point, man.
I I studied it a bunch and I do love theology, but like, it comes down to to it comes down to, I wanna follow Jesus and his example. Like, in either I'm gonna be pushed towards that through my study of God, Or I'm going to think more highly of myself and, you know, show everybody how humble I am. Yeah. So it's it's we need Jesus, man. That's what it comes back to.
We just need him. Yeah. No. I I totally agree. I think that I mean, sorry.
I lost my train of thought. No. You're okay, man. If there's one thing about me, man, I I am I am my brain's like one big open canvas and we can go anywhere you want to. And sometimes I don't transition well.
So No. No. You're totally fine. I, yeah. I think that, like I mean, I definitely agree that, like, I think that with pride I mean, it is something that you have to be active against.
You you know what I mean? It's not something that you can be passive about. Like, you have to constantly keep Christ in view and, like, look at your own unworthiness. And I think too, I think that, like, going back to, you know, BB Warfield again, you know, he talks about how, like, the monks, you know, back in the day, like, how how a lot of them, you know, they could focus on self discipline. They could focus on, you know, praying.
They could they could focus on a lot of these disciplines. But at the end of the Which in themselves are are they're they're a beautiful thing. Yeah. It's not a it's not a bad thing to be a disciplined person. No.
For sure. And but it was it was I think he was just making the point that that had like, God had created us, you know, and he wants us to help our fellow man. And I think that that is something that can be very difficult because I think that one of the most difficult things in the bible, I believe, is when Jesus talks about loving your neighbor because I I think that sometimes that can be really difficult. I mean, people can be very very mean, very like, you don't you don't wanna love them. I've run into that, man.
I I Yeah. I've heard stories about that online. People being mean. I've never never never heard about that before. No.
Yeah. It's a it's yep. Especially when people are keyboard heroes, man. That that's what gets me. I I actually work in marketing and and social media and stuff right now.
Okay. Man, people are just, like, I always try to bring it back to like, would you say that on a, like if you stood on a chair in front of 2,000 people? Like, would you say that? Yeah. but that can go down a lot of places.
But, you know, it it brings me back to, like, what Jesus said in Matthew 2312, you know, all who exalt themselves will be humbled, And all who humble themselves will be exalted. Which once again, like C. S. Lewis, we were talking about earlier, it's a little bit of a Yoda phrase. And if you're not sure who Yoda is, you should definitely watch Star Wars.
This is a big Star Wars plug. But, I mean, I think the only good thing that they ever produced was the Mandalorian, but I know I'm I know I'm very Woah. Woah. I know. Fighting words.
Oh my goodness. Oh, dude. I didn't realize we were gonna have this kind of conversation, but, but no. It's it's there's a level of, like, and I think it's just a practical idea. I know this is more theology of a, of a podcast, but a very practical thing is, like, what am I trying to do in this situation?
Am I trying to exalt myself? Or am I trying to humble humble myself before the Lord? And it's super simple, super easy to talk about. But even, you know, heck, we're the guys that are are sitting talking into microphones and hoping people listen to it. Yeah.
Are we trying to exalt ourselves? And and I'm not making a judgment on what we're doing or anything of this sort. I'm just saying that, like, that simple question will change your life if you you're actually truly honest with yourself and saying, god, like, why why am I doing this? Yeah. Why are you find Go ahead.
I find purse personally, man, they're both there. Both. It, like, I have this intention to love the Lord and do what He wants and and follow Him. But that pride thing, like I said, it reminds me a lot, like you ever been to the beach before? Yeah.
Actually, I just, got back recently from topsail. Look at you, man. That's awesome. I remember as a kid, we went to Florida and stuff and we'd go we would go boogie boarding. You remember those things?
Yeah. I remember doing that. It's like it's like a a guy that doesn't know how to surf thing, but, like, what we would do is we'd start going out with our boogie boards and like we'd be looking towards the ocean. And then we'd go, you know, kind of going out there a little bit and then we'd turn around to kind of look at, you know, where we came from. And I swore as a kid and later as an adult, I'm like, oh, I'm just walking straight.
But then I look back at, okay, you know, is that my spot with the my towels and all that stuff? And I'm like, I drifted all the way down the beach and didn't even realize it. Yeah. And and that to me is one of the most distinct pictures on what pride is. We're trying to go after the Lord.
We're trying to, you know, deepen our relationship with Him, deepen our understanding of who He is, what He wants, what, you know, what He's like. But as we're walking towards that, I think there is a drift that happens very naturally. And I think it takes turning around, looking at that point, turn like, having to come back come back come back to humility, come back to that spot. So I know that's super more practical than, philosophical, but I think it's I think it's at the very root of kind of our human experience of what what pride does. Because I I don't think like, have you ever Zach, have you ever, like, wanted wanted to be prideful?
Or like, made a decision to be prideful? In the moment, you're like, I'm gonna be prideful about this. I'm sure I have. I mean, I'm yeah. I mean, I'm sure I have.
I mean, I'm sure I didn't use those words, like, specifically, but, like, more of more or less, like, I wanna make something known about an accomplishment that I have achieved. And Yeah. And I think, like, going back to what you said earlier, and I think that, like, even giving to charity or, you know, sometimes that we want to be seen for that or because it makes us feel good. So So it's like even in those moments where we're doing something good for somebody else, sometimes it's still, you know, it's still tainted by sin. And that just shows you, like, our corrupt state that we're in because even our even our best works are not good enough.
But I believe that if, you know, as believers, I believe that even those works that are still stained and marred by sin are acceptable before God because they're done in Christ's name, because they I mean, because you're in Christ. And so I think that he purifies them, essentially. Oh, I hope so, man, because lord knows, man. If he's not, we're we're in trouble. Yeah.
Yeah. Yep. But, yeah, man. I I, yeah. Coming back to that James verse again, God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble.
And I think, you know, that's all in all in context of, truly, like we said, our our fallen nature. And, I mean, even references in in earlier on, and in all those pieces just about trials and all those pieces that that end up perfecting our faith. And I I think that entire concept is to put us in the state of humility, where it's not just I'm dirt. Because I think I I I do think, like, I wouldn't necessarily identify any more towards reformed theology personally on my own journey. But I do feel like there there is a danger there sometimes that that humility is just kind of treating yourself like dirt.
And I think that's not humility. Like I said, that CS Lewis quote hits me really hard where it's like, you know, it's thinking of yourself less, not thinking less of yourself. Because as people and and, of course, not not through cultural mindset of, you know, self actualization and, you know, realize your best self and all that stuff. That's that's whatever. It's garbage mostly.
But more like Jesus died for you. You are worth a lot. You know? Yeah. So just that Yeah.
Go ahead. No. No. You're right. I think, I can't remember who the theologian, was that said it or maybe pastor, but, like, there's that quote that it might it might even have been Spurgeon where he says, you know, think about how valuable a soul is if both the devil and God want it.
And and I think that, like, I, you know, I could see your perspective about, you know, you you don't always have to I think it's good to keep in mind your own unworthiness and your the unmerited favor. But I but I I do agree that at some point, some people take it in such a way where they just dwell on that, where they miss out maybe a little bit on the joy that's in Christ or, I don't know, or just, you know, looking to him and kind of looking to the future, not so much dwelling on what we are in ourselves, but, you know, what Christ has done for us. So, you know, it's good to not stay stagnant. Go ahead. I I love what you said said earlier.
Like, it's not, this level. It's it's when it comes to humility, it it's it's it's looking at at Christ, looking at as a his example, and then just accepting God's grace. Because I I think that's the piece sometimes that a lot of believers can do is, yeah, like, we need to focus on our depravity. But if all we do is focus on our depravity, we miss we miss the entire gospel. Yeah.
You know, like, we are saved by grace. And by all means, looking at even in this conversation of pride and and humility, it's not saying, oh my gosh. And here's another reason why I'm I'm awful. It's more of, wow. Like, through Christ, like you said earlier, we can constantly be pursuing humility.
You know, it's not an arrival point. I don't think we're gonna get that this side of heaven, but I do fully believe that through Christ, we can live in humility. And and that's what I love. And at that end of of James, God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Yeah.
Yep. Well, I, I really appreciate you coming on, and and I, you know, really enjoyed our conversation. I'll I'll definitely have to we'll definitely have to pick up another conversation again. And, if you had to, give anyone advice out there about what are some I mean, I I do love, the analogy you gave about being, you know, you know, in the ocean and about drifting and just about trying to come back to that humility and not letting your pride sweep you away. Is there any other practical tips that you think that you can give our listeners about how that they can keep that in view and kind of be something that they can work on and that I can work on?
You know, man, I I've had a lot of brokenness in my life and a lot of very hard times to, you know, to have some kind of 3 step thing for that. But the practical I think the practical thing is is it later says in James, draw near draw near to him. And I think the only way that we can truly walk in humility in in a regular everyday thing is just by relationship with Christ through prayer, through scripture, through, relationship. Yeah. Because it's not something I can produce on my own.
Any humility that's ever been in me is Christ given. And I think it's not something that you can work work on. I think it's something that it's it's the byproduct of the relationship with Christ. Yeah. No.
I I think that that's a really good way of putting it, and I think that that kinda draws to mind a couple different passages where, you know, one where Jesus, he, you know, he makes the statement that, you know, without you know, apart from me, you can do nothing. Or when, John the Baptist says that, I'm trying to think. He he makes a comment about, you know, a man is not able to receive anything unless it, be given him from heaven. And, I think both of those kind of, statements kinda parallel each other, because just showing that anything good is, you know, as I think it might even be James that says, you know, you know, every good and perfect gift is from above, and I think that humility, when someone does have it, it is a gift. So, but, yeah, thanks again, Ben, and, you know, I really enjoyed our conversation.
I appreciate you, man. Alright, man. I'll talk to you later.