The Doctrine of Predestination

In our fourth episode, my guest Kathryn and I discuss the often misunderstood and controversial doctrine of Predestination. We go through what the Scriptures teach about the will of man and God's sovereignty. Is man able of his own will to respond freely to God's call? Or is man's nature so corrupted that he is unable to respond unless their is a supernatural intervention? 

The discussion of man's nature and God's election has been a heated issue for both Protestants and Roman Catholics. In Protestantism, the argument about these topics have been the most heated between the Calvinists and the Arminians. And in Roman Catholicism, the debate has been between the Molinists and the Thomists. Kathryn and I touch on the Gospel of John, as well as bring in the beliefs of Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas to dive deeper into this crucial doctrine.

Transcript

Hello, and welcome to the Restless Theologian podcast where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack. In our 4th episode, we will be discussing the doctrine of predestination. This doctrine is one that can be quite complex and has a significant impact on the way we view God and man. And today to help me in unpacking this topic is my girlfriend, Kathryn.

We have discussed this particular doctrine at length in the past, so I'm hoping that in discussing some of the complexities of this doctrine that our listeners may find it helpful. So, Katie, are you ready for this? I guess so. Yeah. It's been a it's been a difficult one to try to prepare for.

I think that there's a lot of difficulty in trying to figure out how to lay out this doctrine in a digestible way and one that's gonna make sense because you can easily go off into different directions with it. Yeah. It's definitely a topic that, I didn't focus on a lot, especially, like, in my early twenties. I didn't even really know what it was. Yeah.

I've heard the word before, but never really gave it much thought. And then when you and I started dating and having these discussions, it's I've actually like, changed my mind in regards to how I understand it to be. Yeah. So it has been very interesting reading a lot about this topic and talking with you about it. I agree.

And I think it's one of those things that like the more you discuss it, you begin to understand it a little bit deeper. Yeah. I definitely think also just you and I reading more about, Saint Augustine's take on it. It has definitely helped me understand it a lot more. Yeah.

And I think it's surprising to some people that that the doctrine of predestination, that seems to it seems to be the minority view of, just the Augustinian perspective, just across the board in Christianity. Like, at least when it comes to just the layperson at church, I would say that they're gonna hold more of, more of an Armenian view in the Protestant church and probably more of a Molinist view in the Catholic church. So, with that being said, I wanted to start off this conversation just with quoting Augustine, and and we'll just go from there. Okay. In one of Augustine's prayers, he had made the statement, give me the grace to do as you command and command me to do what you will.

And, that set off a whole chain of events in the 400 with him and, the British monk, Pelagius. I wanted to, bring up a little bit of Pelagius' view, and, we can kind of compare and contrast it with that of Augustine. Okay. So the British monk, Pelagius, he believed that Adam's fall only affected him and that each person born after him is in the same state of free will that Adam had when he was created. So that a man can basically, at any point in his life, choose to be completely free from sin.

Doesn't matter if he sinned in the past. I mean, he can, at any point, decide from this point going forward, I'm going to be completely sinless. He thought that that was something that was within man's power. And just contrasting this with Saint Augustine's view, So St. Augustine believed that man's free will had been taken away in the fall.

And when we discuss the will, it can get very difficult to understand what we're talking about, like, because people have different understandings of what the will is and what we mean when we say free will. Or I'll reference a couple of Augustine quotes just to give a little bit of background on his position of the will, and then I'll get your take on it. Okay. Okay. So Augustine says, can they do anything by the free determination of their own will?

Again, I say, God forbid, for it was by the evil use of his free will that man destroyed both it and himself. For as a man who kills himself must, of course, be alive when he kills himself, but after he has killed himself ceases to live and cannot restore himself to life. So when man by his own free will sinned, then sin being victorious over him, the freedom of his will was lost. And the next quote from Augustine, he states, if therefore they are slaves of sin, why do they boast of free will? For by whatever a person is overcome, to that he is delivered as a slave.

But if they have been set free, why do they puff themselves up as if by their own doing? Why do they boast as if their freedom were not a gift? Or are they so free that they will not have him for their lord who says to them, without me, you can do nothing? And if the son sets you free, you shall be truly free? I want to get your thoughts and Yeah.

It's been a while since I've heard particularly those two quotes by Augustine. I've been reading a lot more about the human will. And one of the things I thought was really interesting is the understanding of what the human will is nowadays, like modern understanding of it. So a lot of people think of the human will as if it's a choosing, a choosing of good or evil. And then more of like back in St.

Augustine's day or even, St. Thomas Aquinas, they see it as more of it's an appetite or like a reaching of a certain good. And when I say good, not necessarily it could be a lower good, which is more like worldly goods, or a higher good, which is of God. So it's kind of changed the understanding of what human will is. But it is interesting what he said.

What did he say at the end of the first quote you said? His human will was lost or I can't remember. From the first quote or the second? The first one. Yeah.

So in the first quote, he says, so when man by his own free will sinned, then sin being victorious over him, the freedom of his will was lost. Okay. So, yeah, so obviously, Pelagius didn't agree or believe in original sin. And obviously Augustine saying, No, this is what original sin is. And it's inherited.

Like, we inherit it from our first parents. Yeah. I think that with inheriting original sin, there's, I mean, obviously numerous verses to back that up. I think it might have been David who had said that, in sin did my mother conceive me. And basically, you know, Paul talks about how we're by nature children of wrath, that we're at enmity with God, that through one man's disobedience, you know, sin came into the world.

Mhmm. So that sort of hereditary, you know, the original sin that causes us to be sinners, and then also what that original sin causes us to commit actual sins. So we are slaves of sin, as Paul would phrase it. Yeah. And as Augustine is, you know, reinforcing here.

Yes. Real quick, just to touch on what you had previously stated. Yeah. This idea of free will, I think where a lot of people get confused is I think that they think that when we say free will that man is able to carry out the actions that he's already internally decided that he wants to carry out. And so, when I make a statement that I think that, that I don't believe in free will or, you know, a lot of times I get a response of, you know, obviously about there being choosing that it's done on man's part.

Now, the question then becomes is, you know, it's not that we're not capable of choosing per se, it's that we all of our choices are going to be, based upon the fact that we are by nature now, like, we're we're sinners. Yeah. And so I know that, I really like the way one time, Jeff Durbin put it about how you can have you know, let's say you have a rabbit in the room with meat and carrots. Which one is it gonna choose? And the same thing with, you know, a vulture.

You know, which one is it gonna choose? It's gonna choose that which is according to its nature. Mhmm. So the vulture is gonna go for the meat. The rabbit's gonna go for the carrots.

So with us being in our fallen nature, what is it we're gonna most likely choose? It's the lower goods. We're going to want to choose what is not, like, of the supernatural good, which is God, until he gives us that grace to choose those higher goods. Yeah. And I think that and it's more of a perverting of any sort of good.

I think that since we're by nature sinners and slaves of sin, that like before we will want to do any good, a new nature has to be imparted to us. Mhmm. I also like we've talked about this about Augustine in his book, Confessions. Is it confession or confessions? It's confessions.

Okay. Can I remember if there was an s at the other time? No, it's confessions. Okay. How when he was younger, like he knew stealing was wrong.

Yeah. But he still did it anyways. He stole the apple from his neighbor's tree. Isn't that wasn't that what it is? I didn't read the I haven't read the book in a long time.

Yeah. So basically, I think it was him and his friends. It's been a while for me too, but him and his friends, they had stolen fruit from, I think, a neighbor's orchard, and he even admitted that they had better fruit and, like, it was a lower grade fruit than what he was accustomed to. So there really wasn't any there wasn't any necessity that, like, it was better or something he needed. It was just in the act itself because then I think that he started to unwrap that he did it for the sake of doing it.

Yeah. I think that that is part of being a sinner as sometimes we don't necessarily have this it's just so natural. It comes so natural to us. Natural, and you almost see it as like you know it's wrong, but you do it anyways. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. Yeah. No. I really enjoyed Confessions.

It's a good book. So next, I wanted to touch on just how this plays out, and this is another topic that, like, is very closely related to the will, and it's about man's ability or inability rather. The question is, does man have the ability to keep God's commandments, and does man also have the ability to respond to God's command to repent and believe? And I'm going to break that down into 2 different parts, one being in the old testament that I believe the Jews, even in the, you know, at the beginning of the new testament with the Jews, the Pharisees and the Sadducees discussing this kind of stuff with Jesus, I think one of the things that they kind of fixate on is, obviously, they were doing their best to try to keep the law, and in in doing so that they thought that that would justify them in God's sight. Now, not not really focusing on the fact of why the law even existed, which was primarily to love God first and foremost and love your neighbor, which I think is at the heart of every commandment in the 10 Commandments.

Yes. One of the things I wanted to bring up is just about, BB Warfield talks about how a lot of, like, the, the Jews at that time would focus on like, they probably believed the lie or at least they believed the lie that they could keep the law perfectly. And if they didn't think that they could do it, that's why they would appeal to other, you know, other noble and righteous people like Noah or Abraham. And I think that that's why they so frequently pleaded that they were descendants of them because they thought in such a way that it would, that they would appeal to the righteousness of another to justify them in God's sight. Even though that these men were, you know, even though that they were righteous in from, you know, from a human standpoint, but, you know, they weren't sinless.

So that brings on the question of ability because is God able to command what he knows that is not within our power to perform? Mhmm. So, this reminds me of, you kind of mentioned them when we first started talking, the Mullenists, but it reminds me of what they had to say in regards to this question of freedom and the human will. So, Molina was a Jesuit, a Jesuit priest, I do believe. And then this was like in the 15 eighties after the Protestant Reformation.

But his concern was, you know, with predestination coming up a lot and the human will, are we truly free? You know, all this was coming up. And his question was, Did Christ freely die if the father commanded it? So again, there was this shift that he did since St. Augustine and St.

Thomas Aquinas, their understanding of the human will, it kind of shifted to this choosing instead rather than, like, desiring something. So, Melina didn't think that humans needed, like, a primary act like God, to move the human will? Because then that would mean He's overtaken it and they're not being free to choose to do something of their own. They saw it as contrary. Like those two things were contrary to each other.

But St. Thomas Aquinas was more like, No, there is no contradiction there. Like, even if you're commanded to do something, you can freely choose to follow it. It doesn't have to be like this being overtaken by something. It can be of your free choosing to do it, to follow a command.

Jeremy Huggins I would have to put some qualifiers around some of those statements from my perspective because I'm not super familiar with a lot of St. Thomas Aquinas' writings. Like, I've I've read far more of St. Augustine's. And, and I know that they, you know, they have a lot in common.

I mean, there's some areas in which they differ, but I would say that, going back to what you were saying about, the Molinists, are you saying that from their standpoint that they didn't like the idea of God having to move the will in the direction he wanted it to go or else man wouldn't be free. Is that true? Is that true? From my understanding of it, yes. That's what I would think they believe.

So that's that's I think they believe more in, like, the, that God for sees people responding to his grace and that's what they believe. So he would go with that. Okay, so I'm going to make that world where he responds freely to the grace that I give him. That's how I kind of understand Mullenism. It's more of a foreseen.

Jeremy H. Y. Yeah. So, I mean, that is similar to, obviously, the Armenian perspective about what they would probably say is that God looked down the quarters of time and saw foresaw that you would choose to believe in him of your own free will. That is the reason upon which he predestines you.

But obviously, from more of a Thomist view, more of a Calvinist view, you know, and I use those too, and I know that they're not interchangeable. But at least in this regard, I think that they have a lot in common in regards to, the doctrine of predestination when it comes to the initial act because from my understanding, from what you're saying, I mean, mononism and Armenianism is both gonna hold that man has free will to choose God. It doesn't necessarily require a supernatural act on God's part, but more from I think a good way how it helps me realize it too with Mullenus, they almost put God and creatures, so like God and humans, on the same level rather than putting God superior being the first cause. That's kind of how I see it. It's almost like they're kind of working.

They're working on the same level, which I think is a mistake to think that way. Well, I think that the error in it is the presumption that God would like if God so desired to bring about someone's salvation, that depending on the person's human free will and their actions, that God's plan has to change based upon the responses of man. And I think that even the idea of having to create a world in which, you know, let's say out of, you know, the concept of a multiverse, like, God before the foundation of the world had to create the world in such a way to make it in which he wanted that person to freely choose him of their own free will. Seems kind of absurd from a biblical standpoint just because we know from scripture that God is able to change men's wills and their hearts. Mhmm.

So there would be no need for, you know, any of that. Mhmm. Now going back to ability, the question of, you know, I'll just kind of reiterate this, but the question of free will is not a question of whether or not a person still has a will, but if that will is truly free, and if they have the ability to carry out that which is being commanded by God for them to do. Plagius would say yes, Augustine would say no. And to kind of add a proof text to that, in John 6:44, when Jesus is giving the living bread discourse in John 6, one of the things that he says is that no man can come to me unless the father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.

Yep. They found this very offensive, and I think that I think that they understood in a sense of what he was saying. Which is interesting. Sorry, really quick. The same reason why Pelagius found it offensive what Saint Augustine said.

Exactly. Because both questions revolve around ability. Because going back to Augustine's prayer, where he says, give me the grace to do as you command, and command me to do what you will. Plagius was deeply offended by that because he thought it was absurd for God to command something that that's not within our power to perform. Mhmm.

So I think that what we should talk about next is, I mean, we've covered free will, ability, or rather man's inability to respond to God's call. So God's call would be repent and believe. Now, I think where a lot of people get tripped up with this is that, you know, same thing with Pelagius, but maybe, I mean, the idea that they would be offended that God would command something that is not within our power. So to come to Christ is not within our power. It's a supernatural work.

So in order for it to be like when it's a supernatural work and it's not something that we initiate and I kinda like how Augustine had brought up about, you know, when a man has killed himself, he has killed himself, he ceases to live and cannot restore himself to life. And I think that that is a very good way of looking at the idea of being born again or a spiritual like rebirth, I guess, because it is not something that man can't initiate. I think Christ says in John 6 also that it's a spirit that gives life. The flesh profits nothing. And I think that I think part of what he's saying there is that that man's rebirth is not something that the flesh is able to, initiate.

It's not something that man is able to do. It's something that the spirit does within that person. Yeah. So I have a a few verses here that I kinda wanna just power through and just to kinda set a background for just the doctrine of election and predestination. I kinda use those terms interchangeably a little bit, but so this is in Ephesians 1.

This is, verses 4 through 6. He says, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love, he predestined us to adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace with which he has blessed us in the beloved. And in Romans 828 and 29, Paul says, and we know that for those who love God, all things work together for good for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his son in order that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

And in John 3 verses 5 through 8, Jesus answered, truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of the water and the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, you must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the spirit.

And I do love that passage in John 3 just because I think that Christ is laying down that it is not man who brings about the work of regeneration. Mhmm. And I feel like that that's a big part of, like, those two passages in particular that are both in John. John 3, which is about, you know, when he's speaking to Nicodemus about being born again, and then also in John 6 about no one having the ability to come to him. Correct.

Yeah. So we need this supernatural power to be given to us. So grace or the holy spirit sent to us in order to love God. In order to want to do those higher goods. Yeah.

And, you know, scripture talks about how we love God because he first loved us. Yes. And it's not, like, we didn't we don't deserve it. It's because a lot of people, that's where they get held up on the whole idea of predestination. Like, you know, Oh, we deserve this or I deserve this or whatever it is in their life.

You know, they feel like they deserve, but really we don't. Like, it's he gives out of his own mercy and love for us, not because it was deserving. Yeah. It's that unmerited favor. Yes.

And, you know, I think too, a lot of times people talk about you know, they'll talk about free will a lot from a human standpoint, but they don't talk about God's free will. Yes. Like, he has the truest of the will. You know what I mean? Like his will is so truly free and his sovereignty in salvation and obviously about like his divine plan and his choosing, people find that very offensive because and I think there's, I think there's several reasons why people find that offensive.

And even though I disagree with their premise, a lot of times, I'll I'll go through a couple of the objections, and we can talk about them. Okay. It's the question of fairness. Why would God choose one person over another? To them, that seems unfair because I I think one of the reasons is, especially in our culture, I think in America, like, since we're a meritocracy, everything's based upon merit.

You do good at your job. You get the promotion. You know, you're successful at your business. You know, you make more money. So it's based upon merit.

And I think that from a human standpoint that, you know, it makes sense. But from God's standpoint, it's not based upon merit. And Augustine clearly, when he's refuting the Pelagians and, some of their premises, one of which I'll mention 2 here. 1 is that you do not merit salvation, and you do not merit salvation, I mean, either through good works or through the merit of a goodwill. And I think with the merit of a goodwill, I think Augustine kinda sets, sets the stage and kinda prepares for the arguments that would be had later during the whole Armenian Calvinistic controversy because I think that that is where the Armenians sort of live.

From their theological point of view, it's also surrounded by the merit of a goodwill because they won't claim that God's choice is based upon, or God's salvation to man is based upon merits. They won't do that because they know that that's a Pelasian idea. They know that they'll be deemed a heretic. And I think that that is why they found this middle path where they focus on the merit of a goodwill. And when I say that, it means that God foresaw that they had a goodwill because they chose him.

That to me is the merit of a goodwill. Mhmm. So I think that it's a very fine point and it's kind of like it's not easy to see right away, but I think that in reading Augustine, he kind of picks up on that and it's obviously 100 of years before the Armenians, come into, you know, play Yeah. You know, in this whole controversy about the doctrine of election. Yeah.

I will say probably somewhere where you and I might disagree on just because you made me think of it, when you first started talking about this. Just because since you're coming more from a Calvinistic point of view and I'm coming more from a, Thomistic point of view, when it comes to God choosing only certain people that he gives his grace to. So I kind of believe it more as God can give his grace to everyone, but not all will respond or get the same amount of graces. So I I believe that it's more limited in regards to how much grace he gives somebody. So, what you're saying is that Here we go.

No. I Okay. So I I think I'm just trying to make sure I understand. Here, yeah. So what I would say is, and the reason why I'm saying this because I believe in refusal.

Like, you can turn away from God. God can give His grace to somebody, even if it's so like, I believe in different kinds of graces. So like, actual grace is like divine motion. So, non believers walking down the road and they get the urge all of a sudden as they're walking past the church to go inside and pray to God and ask God to like, Please help them. And, you know, like, I believe that type of grace, like something that puts a little spark in somebody, like, I believe that can be given to everybody, and that's coming from, like, I think it's 1 Timothy, where he says, like, God desires all to be saved.

But obviously, we are not universalists. We don't believe that all will be saved. I'm just saying that's where I'm coming from and understanding or believing that you can refuse God's grace. But I also believe it in a certain standpoint where I think God can give more graces to certain people. So, like, I'm very thankful for the graces He has given me, but I think he's given more grace to other people than he has to me.

So that's kinda where I stand on that. Yeah. So so I think you're operating off the premise that so basically, grace is resistible. It is where you're coming from. And the holy spirit, I think, can be resisted.

Okay. So here's a couple of quotes I wanna you know, I think that kind of are relevant to bring up, and then we can talk about them. So, Augustine makes this statement where he says, where a man left his own will to remain under the help of God if he chooses, While God does not make him willing, among temptations so numerous and so great, the will would succumb from its own weakness. Help, therefore, has been brought to the weakness of the human will by divine grace acting irresistibly and inseparably, That, thus, the will, however weak, might not fall or might not fail. And then there's one other quote I wanted to bring up, and we'll we'll talk about it.

BB Warfield, also in his book, The Plan of Salvation, he states that, But they suppose that though dead in sin, man can resist and successfully resist almighty grace. Resistance is, however, self an activity and the successful resistance of an almighty recreative power is a pretty considerable activity for a dead man. Okay. So the first one was Saint Augustine. Correct.

He's saying that divine grace acts irresistibly. Okay. So it it is given to somebody and it I mean, they can't okay. So I'm just thinking this through my head. If they can't resist it, can can they eventually turn away from it?

Like, in Acts it Acts 7, it says, don't like talking about resisting the Holy Spirit. And then also in Galatians 5, Paul says, you have fallen away from grace. So, I guess that's why I see it as like there are more amounts of grace that can be given to somebody that are more of a, not so much the actual grace that I talked about, but like habitual grace, which is a little bit more stabilizing and more like infusing the grace in that person. So I can see that being more of a type of irresistible grace. So that's why I think there are different kinds of graces.

Well, I mean, I don't know. I could be this is just this is just what I'm thinking. Yeah. No. You're fine.

I think that, I don't wanna get too hung up on declaring how many different types of graces there are. I mean, I think that there's maybe common grace, and then, I think that one's definition of grace kinda depends on the context. So, when I say divine grace in salvation, meaning that, so the argument, I think, from an Augustinian viewpoint would be this, is that divine grace acts irresistibly upon the soul. So what I mean when I say that is that I think that each person, since we're in this fallen state, they are naturally just they're hardened and, like scripture says, at enmity against God. Paul also mentions that no one seeks after God.

They may seek gods, but they don't seek the one true God. And it is only when the supernatural work of the holy spirit that comes in and regenerates that person and makes them willing. So this is another topic I wanna bring up is just I have had quite a few people bring up to me or mention to me that when I talk about the doctrine of predestination, it eventually and inevitably leads to you think that God forces people against their will. And No. I don't believe that.

No. And I'm not saying you do, but I'm just saying that usually that's where the conversation leads, and my response to them is normally that it's not that God is forcing you against your will, it's that he's putting a new will in you and causing those who were unwilling to be willing. Just like Augustine talks about, like, why do we pray for other people except for I mean, unless we believed that God is able to change those who are completely perverse and opposed to the will of God. So, like, the effectiveness of prayer, like, if God wasn't truly sovereign and able to change people's wills, then it would be pointless to pray for them to become believers. Yeah.

So I think that that is one way of looking at it. So does man resist? Yeah. I think that every man resists because it's it's in our nature to do so. Yeah.

But the question then becomes is God in his omnipotence, and since he's all powerful, is he able and willing to overcome that resistance? And I think he does. Well, of course, he can. I mean, obviously, he's all powerful. He can choose to do that.

Yeah. It's just we might understand it differently a little bit. Yeah. No. That that's okay.

I mean, I think that, I think that that is very relevant to bring up. I will say also, if we another thing, like, if you refuse his grace or like what I said it says in Galatians, like, fallen away from grace, it's not it's our own doing. Like, it's not the fault of God. It's of our own doing. So we can't blame God.

Yeah. And Augustine does talk about that as well, that, you know, he who stands stands by God. He who falls or he who falls, you know, falls from his own Yes. From his own Weakness. By his own doing, by his own weakness, and that he who stands obviously stands by God Mhmm.

Because God causes him to stand. Yes. So going back to just a general idea of the fairness question, because that is one that I feel like is most common to get in this discussion. There are a few points I'd like to bring up about, you know, why does God choose some and pass over others. That's a very valid, you know, or valid question to bring in this topic.

1, I feel like sometimes I'll bring up about how, you know, God chose Israel out of all the other nations that were upon the earth in the old testament, and, you know, he chose them and but and passed over others, so that would be a fairness question. But the question then becomes, does God have the right to do that? And I would say yes. The other couple of responses I'd like to give is that, you know, Romans talks about how unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable are his ways. So to some degree, we're not gonna be able to understand everything or the reasoning behind why he's doing what he's doing, But we still have to like trust that God is good and that what he decides is best.

And then Yeah. He has this overall plan. Yeah. And we have to trust in his plan for us. Yeah.

And I think a question that was presented to me recently, and you were there when this question got brought up, but someone had asked me if, well, what if someone really wants to be a member of the elect? What if they really want to? And God's just like, no. And I told him, I said, I think that that to me would be a possible earmark or sign that they are of the elect, the fact that they want to love Christ and be of the elect. Because if they had been reprobate, then they would not want to love Christ, want to get to know Christ, or want to be a member of the elect because they're at enmity with God.

So until God changes them, that is gonna be what their state is. Yeah. This kinda reminds me of our first episode together in regards to, like, the angels, you know, the fallen angels. So, like, they I don't know. I read something recently.

I can't remember who it was, where, like, they believe that the angels were given this choice from the very start of whether or not they wanted to be in communion with God or didn't want to be. And then from there on, that was their final choice. Obviously, once the angels have fallen, God's not saving them. Like, he's not coming down to save them like he is with human beings, how he how he sends Christ to save us. Yeah.

So, like, we could think about, you know, and I don't wanna get too much into speculation. No. No. You're you're okay. I think I think that that is an interesting thought, and I I think that we you know, like you said, we brought this up a little bit in the first episode about whether or not they were given, quote unquote, free will, like Adam and Eve were at the beginning, and then lost that free will once they sinned.

And so then they became enslaved to sin. But I do love how Arthur Pink talks about how Christ didn't come in the form of an angel to redeem the angels. He came in the form of man to save men. Yes. And I do love that because it just shows you how loving God is to do that for us and how just special that is, you know?

Mhmm. I feel like I can't talk about the subject and not bring up Romans 9. Like, it's just gonna naturally be a part of the conversation, and Romans 9 is one that gets people very, very upset, I think. I think that R. C.

Sproul, in my opinion, has a really good point about St. Thomas Aquinas, Augustine, Jonathan Edwards, Luther, John Calvin, across the board in different, just in different times. And he makes a comment about how bringing he's bringing to our attention how if all of those guys agree on this issue, we should be very wary to disagree with it. And he's saying, he's like, it's not that they can't be wrong, he's like, they could all be wrong, but he's like, you have these great theological brains, and they all agree on this issue. And I think that, you know, some people find that very surprising just because, like I said, it's not necessarily the dominant view within Christianity today.

But, I mean, it's definitely seen a resurgence, I mean, within the past, like, you know, 10 years, I would say. But anyway, you know, going back to Romans 9, I figured I'll quote it and then we'll kinda break it down and talk about it. Okay. So in Romans 9 verses 14 through 21, prior to this, he breaks down about, Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated. He talks about how before the twins were born, before they had done anything good or bad, God declared Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.

And then in Romans 9:14-twenty 1, he says, What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means, for he says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God who has mercy. For the scripture says to pharaoh, for this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you and that my my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.

So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will? But who are you, oh man, to answer back to God? Will what does molded say to its molder, why have you made me like this?

Has the potter no right over the clay to make one out of the same lump, one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? And I feel like that's, Romans 9 is one that I feel like usually where this discussion starts, because it is Paul clearly outlining or detailing the doctrine of election, God's sovereign choice, and also, 2, the question of fairness gets brought up. And I think that a couple of times, he has responses to people. He says, what shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part?

He says, by no means. Because he's automatically assuming that people are going to Be offended by it? Yeah. He's he's assuming people are gonna be offended and and charge God with injustice, which is a terrible thing to do. And then also too, you know, the question of for who can resist his will, and he responds again.

He says, but who are you, oh man, to answer back to God? Well, I think this is where it comes. Like, he has his overall will, his plan for us. Like, when he talks about hardening hearts, like he hardened Pharaoh's heart or Pharaoh hardened his own heart, that simply means he had a plan for Israel. And that's why he allowed Pharaoh to harden his own heart because there was this plan that he had to free the Israelites from Egypt.

And not only that, that whole thing was foreshadowing so much more for Christ to come and for us. So it is quite amazing to see how his overall plan is just so, it's so beyond what we can even understand. And I think that is, I mean, that's, I mean, I understand why people can have a problem with this because I was kind of there, you know? It was hard for me to understand that or read it and be like, What does this mean? Like, This seems unfair, or This seems it is, or It's not, but like, it's difficult to understand why is it like this?

But we have to trust that God, He loves us, and His plan is better than anything we can imagine would be If we think something is better, it's not. God knows what is best. And so, we have to trust that. Yeah. Yeah.

Going back to what Paul says in Romans 8 about him working all things for good, you know, even back to the story of Joseph where, you know, his brothers had thrown him in that den and then also, if I can use the term den, but they threw him in that pit and let him suffer for a while and then sold him into slavery. You know, what does he say to them when, you know, they find out who he is and his new standing? And I think he's second only to pharaoh himself. And he says to them, and he forgives his brothers and says, you know, you meant this for evil, but God meant it for good. I love that story.

It's one of my favorite stories. No. I totally agree. That is I think it is one of my favorites too just because despite the hardship and the heartache that he endured for because of the actions of his brothers, but still that, you know, just about him forgiving them, and so quickly too. I mean, it does make you wonder like how long it took maybe for him to get to that point.

Did he forgive his brothers you know, as soon as he was enslaved, you know, or did it take him you know, I'm sure it's something he probably struggled with internally for a while, but then probably God allowed him to see the bigger picture and that God worked everything out for good, even through, you know, people's wicked deeds. Evil acts. Yeah. Evil acts, which is crazy to think about. Mhmm.

Yeah. In this discussion, I think it's good to bring up, something I heard recently. I was watching another, like, scroll video about this, and he was just talking about how going back to people kind of struggling with, you know, why would God do this for one person and not another, you know, I think it's interesting how Skrull brought up about how Saul had that road to Damascus moment. Pontius Pilate didn't. And then, who who was the main priest that was behind trying to have Christ crucified?

Do you remember his name? It's not Nicodemus, is it? No. It's something No. Close.

Caiaphas. Caiaphas. That's what it was. So but scroll brings up about how God didn't do that road to Damascus moment for Caiaphas or for Pontius Pilate. You know, I mean, as far as we know, he didn't, but, like, according to the scriptures, it's like it doesn't say it, so more than likely, those moments didn't happen for them.

God didn't come to them and and proclaim who he was. And I think that, you know, the question needs to be asked, well, why did he do that for Saul, but didn't do it for Pontius Pilate or Caiaphas? And the same thing for, like, Peter, and, I think it's Matthew 16. You know, he says, Peter just gets done proclaiming who Christ is and that he's the son of God. And, Christ says, blessed are you, Simon Barjona, for flesh and blood hasn't revealed this to you, but my father in heaven.

And here you have the father in heaven revealing a truth, a spiritual truth about who Christ is, and he allows him to see that. And he does that for some and not for others. Why he does it, you know, we don't know. Mhmm. But I just feel like it's it's it's very relevant to bring up.

Yeah. So I would like to kinda close on this idea just because I I do feel like this is a common another objection that people are going to get or that you're gonna hear when someone says, well, if God predestined some for salvation, why preach the gospel? And I'm gonna run through these quickly, and then feel free to interject where you know, if you wanna add anything. Okay. 1 is we are commanded in the great commission to proclaim the gospel to all men, you know, without distinction.

2, we don't know who the elect and non elect are. That's not for us to to say because someone should could act like a member of the non elect and then still be a member of the elect and come to saving faith. Even through the prayers, you know, Augustine talks about how even God uses the prayers of his people to bring about his will. And then also, Paul preached the doctrine of election. I mean, that's reason enough for us to preach it as well.

Or I do think too that there's sort of a time some people that are very new to the faith, it might be something that maybe you don't wanna bring up to them right away just because you feel like it might be a little bit too complex for them. Also, too, faith comes from hearing and hearing of the word of God. So, we preach the gospel outwardly, but it's the holy spirit that changes the heart and the will inwardly. I wanna bring up a relevant passage for this where Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3, he says, I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth.

Did you have any other, points that you wanted to bring up or any did you want to elaborate on any of those about like when you hear the objection, oh, if predestination is true, why should we why should we tell other people about Christ and the gospel? Because, you know, the, what they're gonna say is, like, well, if they're alive, they're gonna come to the faith anyway. We don't need to do anything. No. Because I think that's why, like, God is so it's so diverse.

Like, we can't fully understand it in the way in which he does things. But by our preaching, by, okay, so by somebody's, like I've talked about, like I can, I agree with like the different kind of graces that God provides for us? And one of the graces is like a charismatic grace, which is like preachers, people who are really good at preaching the word, even prophecies, like people who prophesy and then healing, like given that healing grace. So, I think he gives some people those graces in order to provide them in different ways, different virtues in which that is also drawing other people to God, but it's still God that's doing that. It's God doing it through certain people to draw others into the flock, or, you know, the elect.

Yeah. And to build off of that, Paul talks about how we have, you know, we are the body of Christ, and, you know, does a hand say to the foot, I have no need of you? I mean, I'm just paraphrasing. I don't I don't I can't quote the exact passage. But basically that, you know, what a hand and a foot do are differently, but still none nonetheless, they're both important.

They're important to the function of the body. So some people have the ability to be able to teach. Some people have the ability to preach. Some people even have the ability to show more lovingkindness because, you know, that's just they're more empathetic, they could be more loving. And I think that all Christians should be loving, but I think that the way in which people express love can be different.

Sometimes, just in Christian culture, some of those people that can sound kinda harsh when they speak the truth, Sometimes it's needed. Sometimes those type of people are needed because the people that are a little bit more passive can get bulldozed over and, and get walked on a little bit too much. And then it's like and I also I think that you need people that are both that, you know, some people to be more verbally aggressive, because, you know, to defend those people who aren't. Yeah. There's a time, there's a place, there's a way in which you do it.

Yeah. And I think that's where prayer is very important too, because I think, you know, if there's someone that you know that you're like, Should I talk to them about God or just anything in general? I don't know, like a specific doctrine or something. Like, if you're unsure how they're going to respond to it or take it, like, it's important to pray about it before you go and do it. Because I do believe that, you know, the Holy Spirit will tell you and you'll know.

You'll know, like, is this the right time to do it? Or is this how I should do it? You know, how should I approach it? So yeah, I think it's all very important. I think prayer is probably one of the more difficult things to do.

You know, I've read things, and I think it's I think it's true. You know, like, the disciples asked Jesus, you know, how should we pray? I mean, these were Jewish believers, you know, they they I mean, I can only imagine a lot of them were raised in the faith of, you know, the Israelites. They were Jewish. They they probably, you know, have read the law, you know, and knew the prophets.

And and what did they ask? Teach us how to pray. And I think that, I think prayer can be difficult to do because we don't always know how to do it. We don't always know even what to ask. And I do think that, you know, I know I keep referencing Paul, but I mean, you know, he talks about He's pretty great.

Yeah. Yeah. He he says, you know, we don't even know how to pray as we ought, but the holy spirit intercedes for us, which I think is is great. But, yeah, I think, anything else you wanna add? Because I feel like that we've covered a lot of ground.

Yeah. And this this could be, I mean, this subject could could take up several episodes just because there's so much to each part of it. There is one final question. I know we've talked about this before, and I do think it's very interesting to but I thought maybe given whoever's listening to this, I think it's an interesting question. But like, so when we die and we go to heaven, you know, is it possible to sin in heaven?

I would say no. And I think the reason why I say that is because, well, for a number of reasons. 1, I think that we would be kind of be going circular where I feel like that we would kinda be starting off with square one again. Yeah. With Adam and Eve.

Yeah. With Adam and Eve. And and that was a question that was presented to me when you were there when someone had asked me that, and my response was if I could sin in heaven, I won't be there very long because I think that Well, I agree. I don't think we would sin be able to sin in heaven because I think our will will be so perfected where, again, we're going to want to, we're going to crave the greatest good, and that's God. We're going to crave, the greatest good, and we won't have any other cravings for those lower goods.

It would be impossible, for us to do so. And I think it's because we'll be glorified in heaven with God. And I think it's going to be even greater, obviously, than what it was in the beginning with Adam and Eve before they fell. And again, this is going back to God's plan for us. Look at how He turned that and He had a plan for an even greater good, which is us being with Him in heaven and not being able to sin again.

Yeah. I don't think we'll be able to sin in heaven. But, yeah. I mean, that's that's all I have for now. And, you know, I'm sure that we're going to return to this subject.

Yeah. We should do a whole series on it. Yeah. I agree. My next episode's gonna be with, Corey, and we're gonna be discussing, the gift of perseverance.

So that's kind of you know, it's hard to kind of separate predestination and the gift of perseverance because I feel like that they're kind of linked, obviously linked to topics. So that'll be our next episode, and, you know, I really appreciate you coming on. And I mean, it's been a really good conversation, and Yeah. And I think that, I'm looking forward to the future ones we have. Same.

Me too. Thanks for having me. Yeah. Thanks for coming on.