In our fifth episode, my guest Cory Reckner and I discuss the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Are Christians able to find warrant within the Scriptures to defend this doctrine? Some argue that belief in this doctrine can provide a false sense of security, while others defend it as Biblical and as an encouragement to believers. The early church father, Saint Augustine, in his work titled "the Gift of Perseverance", notably defined and defended this doctrine.
While Saint Augustine held to this doctrine, it has had a mixed reception in both modern day Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. Within Protestantism, the Reformed tradition has rigorously defended this doctrine and provided proof texts and argumentations as to why this doctrine has its roots in the Bible. In the 17th century, the reformed Church of the Netherlands, at the Synod of Dort, responded to the Remonstrance (the Arminians). The synod provided a rebuttal to the Arminian position that held in doubt, whether or not all of the elect will actually persevere to the end.
In our fifth episode, my guest Cory Reckner and I discuss the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. Are Christians able to find warrant within the Scriptures to defend this doctrine? Some argue that belief in this doctrine can provide a false sense of security, while others defend it as Biblical and as an encouragement to believers. The early church father, Saint Augustine, in his work titled "the Gift of Perseverance", notably defined and defended this doctrine.
While Saint Augustine held to this doctrine, it has had a mixed reception in both modern day Protestantism and Roman Catholicism. Within Protestantism, the Reformed tradition has rigorously defended this doctrine and provided proof texts and argumentations as to why this doctrine has its roots in the Bible. In the 17th century, the reformed Church of the Netherlands, at the Synod of Dort, responded to the Remonstrance (the Arminians). The synod provided a rebuttal to the Arminian position that held in doubt, whether or not all of the elect will actually persevere to the end.
Hello, and welcome to the Restless Theologian podcast where we focus on having insightful conversations in biblical history and theology. I'm your host, Zechariah Eshack. In our 5th episode, we will be discussing the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints. It is just as complex and controversial as the doctrine of predestination. I find it surprising that many believers seem to quickly dismiss this doctrine without really diving deep into the passages of scripture that support it.
I also think that there are a lot of caricatures out there you know, about this doctrine as well. I have with me my friend, Corey, today and he's going to help me explain this doctrine, what it is, and maybe address some of the objections to it. So, with that being said, Corey, are you ready to get into this? Yep. Let's go.
Okay. Awesome. What I've been doing lately is just starting off with a quote, and I've been picking Augustine because he's one of my favorite theologians. Nice. This statement by Augustine, he says, it is shown with sufficient clearness that the grace of God, which both begins a man's faith and which enables it to persevere into the end, is not given according to our merits, but is given according to his own most secret and at the same time, most righteous, wise, and beneficent will.
Since those whom he predestined, them he also called with that calling of which it is said, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. So I wanted to get your take on that, see what you have to say about it, and then we'll go from there. Nice subject matter. Right? Very heavy and very controversial because of so many things related to it.
Right? I mean, very controversial and been debated about, I think, probably forever. Right? Yeah. Ever since, I mean, before Augustine even, I would say it was debated even, you know, back during the early church period and even going into Israel's history, I'm pretty sure it was debated back then also.
Yeah. You know, this this whole, topic of, okay, I've received salvation, and now the next step after that is, what does that look like as my faith keeps going and growing or not growing? And do I play a part in that at all? Right? And or or, you know, don't I?
So where should we go with this? Because I know we could talk about a lot of things with this, right? Yeah. I think, I think a good starting point, and actually didn't even write this on my notes, but it's just coming to me now. There's this passage in Ezekiel, and I'm just gonna kind of paraphrase.
I feel like it's one that, both Calvin and Augustine bring up in regards to just the subject matter of predestination and the gift of perseverance, and that is the passage where God says, you know, I will put my law within their hearts and remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh, that you'll obey my commandments, and that you'll depart not from me. And I'm just paraphrasing with that. I don't have the quote up or the passage up. One of the things I think that that is relevant because when you look at Israel's history, I mean, if I had to point out one thing that they kept doing that I felt like was angering God, it was departing from him. And I feel like that is an important thing to look at in this conversation because you're like, how is the new covenant different than the old covenant?
And how are the Israelites different than God's new bride, you know, the Christian people? In my opinion, one of the main ways that they're different is that with the Holy Spirit, I don't think that that's, you know, I think that the holy spirit rested on specific individuals back in the old testament days like David or, Moses, but I don't think that they were in I don't think that the Holy Spirit was in every believer in the same way, because if you look at the New Testament, when before Christ ascends into heaven, he says, it's to your benefit that I go. And then that way, the helper or the paraclete will come to you. Mhmm. And, so what what do you think?
Have you, thought of that before? Have you looked at it from that angle? Yeah. It's it's, once again another, you know, subject that, I've thought about a lot and it gets kinda confusing sometimes because, you know, like, you just, you know, did a really good job of paraphrasing. It seems as though through the old testament, the holy spirit played a really specific role with specific individuals and sometimes not as, like, you know, a corporate, indweller.
You know? Yeah. But instead was more of a independent indweller, like you said with David. I mean, David wrote almost all the Psalms. Solomon wrote almost all the proverbs.
You know? But these were, like, very specific individuals that were pretty high up with authority, and Moses, same thing. And then, you know, you read of people, like, I cannot remember the reference, but you'll know what I'm talking about where the holy spirit, indwelt one of the Israelites who built, who was doing construction, right, back during the times after the exodus and everything. Okay. But, like, when you read through that passage, you're like, oh, this is just one guy, that we know of, and he went to town with, you know, building stuff.
Right? And it but it was like a gift from the holy spirit. But it was a really unique thing too because the holy spirit, like, went into that person. Yeah. And then blessed him and then, you know, next thing you know, this guy's, like, building stuff.
You've got that going on throughout all of the old covenant, like you said, the old testament. And then in the new testament, after Christ came, was crucified, was raised, and then ascended, you know, the holy spirit, specifically in Pentecost at Pentecost, that's where he fell upon the the believers. Right? The first church. Yeah.
And they were all speaking tongues. The bible says tongues of fire. So but that's like the first time you really see the holy spirit, from what I remember at least from reading the the the scriptures. The first time you see the holy spirit actually descending on a group of people individually, but also corporately at the same time too. Yeah.
So and I don't know. I I I want to assume that because of Israel's past, like the history of Israel, I should say, specifically throughout all of the old testament, that there are probably moments where the Holy Spirit did indwell groups of people all at once too. But this is where we're getting into our subject matter now too. It's like, okay, But is it like a permanent thing? You know?
Yeah. And specifically with this doctrine too, like you mentioned, the gift of perseverance. I know some theologians and people refer to it as the grace of the gift of perseverance. I think RC Sproul did that. I watched a little bit of his video on my way over here too, or listened to it.
Okay. Wasn't watching while I was driving, I swear. But I was listening to it and, you know, he said that it's referred to as the the grace of the gift of perseverance. Right? So kinda like it it is a gift.
You know? Yeah. But, yeah, it helps people persevere in their faith no matter what they do, and it just carries them into heaven until the time that they pass away. Right? So, yeah.
Yeah. I think, for me personally, and this is just me, very individualistic, you know, perspective here, but I'm sure a lot of people can relate to this too. So with my own experience of following God, I've had my ups and down moments. Right? And some moments were definitely more up than others, and some moments were definitely more down than others.
Yeah. But as I reflect on all of my history with history with that, I can still recall, you know, especially from a high level view, that God was still there the entire time, that he was still working in my life. And if I get even more like microscopic it, I I see these moments, right, where he actually was working in me too. And like I said, there were times where I was really down, you know, maybe I wasn't believing or something. Maybe I was sinning to some degree, you know.
Yeah. It's almost like, you know, we all have our Achilles' heel. Like, I think everyone does. I think everyone has that that sin that's in the back of their mind that they're like that they know that they have a susceptibility to. Yeah.
I feel like that that's part of our conscience where we know it's there, we know our weakness, and we see it. And it's like and then sometimes, I think when believers fall into kind of that repetitiveness of sin or maybe you feel like that they fell and it just kind of, it really stings. And I think too in moments like that, you feel like God is there, but maybe you don't feel his presence as much. Yeah. I think that that's what it is.
It's almost like you feel distant. You know what I mean? Like you would just like an earthly father. You may feel distant from them, even though that they're still there, they still love you. But, yeah, I kinda wanted to briefly mention something I had thought about when you were talking about the Old Testament because I do think that there was a part where, you know, comparing and contrasting the presence of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament versus the New, I do think that there's a passage that talks about Saul, about the holy spirit leaving Saul.
And I mean, I don't does that sound I mean, it just popped in my head, but I'm pretty sure I read something like that. Have you heard have you read that before? Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not too far off base with that?
No. And not only did, like, the spirit leave Saul, but it's like everything else did too. Right? Like, his blessings and, like, his his status and everything because it was eventually given to David, you know. So Yep.
Yeah. It was like a collective picture. Right? Everything just the holy spirit vamused and the next thing you know, Saul lost everything, right? So Yeah, yep.
But yeah, I think too that what's relevant is that when I was doing a little bit of preparation for this, I read a little bit of the chapter on the perseverance of the saints with the sin in the door. The book is by Robert Godfrey, and it's called Saving the Reformation. Yeah, I highly recommend it. I've seen Robert Godfrey in quite a few church history type videos, and I've always liked them, but I really think that he like, as you're reading it, you're like, this is what he excels at. Like, after you read his, like, exposition of each of the articles and the objections, you're just kinda like, you could tell, like, this is his expertise, and it's something that I was pleasantly surprised when reading it, how warm it was, how understandable he made it.
But here's a section from the Synod of Dort, which I thought was very interesting about the perseverance of the saints, that article, and it's gonna be on rejection 8. It says, so this is something that the synod is rejecting, and they reject those who, quote, who teach that it is not absurd that people, after losing their former regeneration, should once again, indeed, quite often be reborn. For by this teaching, they deny the imperishable nature of God's seed by which we are born again, contrary to the testimony of the Apostle Peter who says, born again not of perishable seed, but of imperishable. And I also wanted to bring in another translation where it says, not of corruptible, but incorruptible seed. And I really did like that because that was, you know, something I've passed by before and never really gave much thought about, but just that idea of incorruptibility, that rebirth being incorruptible or imperishable, because Spurgeon has this quote about how, you know, if God gives you eternal life, by its very nature, it is what?
It's everlasting. It's eternal. So, the question then becomes does he give them that eternal life like here and now? So, if he gives us eternal life, if he gives you or me eternal life, it's everlasting. So, like, it's not something that I see that we die, go to heaven, and then it's everlasting.
It's everlasting from the point and moment that he gives it to you because, like I said, what Spurgeon says, by its very nature, if he gives you eternal life, you know, it can't be changed. It's everlasting. Yeah. Revoked. Yeah.
Can't be revoked. Yeah. Yeah. Like that passage, the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable or without repentance as Augustine just, you know, referenced. Yeah.
Yeah. A 100%. And you reminded me too. I mean, I guess it's always good to reflect on why that would be. Right?
Like, why like, how could it be irrevocable? You know? Yeah. And I think for me personally, I mean, you reflect on the scriptures enough, you see this common theme of God's love. And, you know, all throughout the old testament, there wasn't of taking our sins upon him.
There were moments of, you know, things like that, especially with Moses and, you know, all the leaders in Israel, but there was never God himself coming down here, giving his life up, you know, taking the weight of sin on his shoulders, being crucified for that. And then the bible also talks about even when he was raised, right, that served as like a justification for us as well. So everything was just so tied into everything Jesus did for us. Yeah. So but before that, there was no sacrifice on the cross, you know?
And I think that alone should stand because it's an eternal thing that Jesus did. It's not like it just covered, you know, couple sins. Right? It covered all of our sins. You know?
Yeah. And so that's why it's it's not impartial. So I I think that, like you'd mentioned, the, in or the corruptible will be overcome by the incorruptible. That's that's Jesus, you know. What he did was he is the incorruptible and he took our place on that cross, you know, so that we'd be made right before God to forever, you know?
Yeah. So I wanted to bring up a couple different passages. Mhmm. Okay. So there are 2 different passages in John that I feel like are directly relevant to this conversation.
And the first one being in John 6:37-forty, all that the father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my father, that everyone who looks upon the son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. In this like bread of where he gives like the bread of life discourse, he says to them that all that the father gives to me will come to me.
I mean, he's saying like in the affirmative that here you have God the father giving God the son a specific, special people. And he said, and whoever comes to me, I will never cast out. He kind of goes into detail about like what his purpose is, or one of, obviously, his purpose is multifold, but I would say that one of his main purposes, and he says that the father, he's come to do the father's will, and what is the father's will? He said that I should lose nothing of all that he has given to me, but raise it up on the last day. And I do love that.
What are you what are your thoughts on it? Yeah. I I love it too because, you know, sometimes with scriptural passages, there's like nuances and you're like Yeah. I don't really know what that's saying maybe from first glance. Right?
And then sometimes it it seems like it's kind of black and white. It's not always, but a lot of times it can be. Yeah. And John is like, he was the master of sometimes making things so ambiguous where you're like, okay. I think I know what he's saying, but maybe that's not exactly maybe I'm missing something.
Right? Yeah. Maybe I'm not fully getting it, but that passage alone is pretty direct. Right? It is.
He's like, the father has, you know, sent me and we're tied together with Will. And everyone whom he gives me, I will not lose them, you know? Yeah. And yeah. Go ahead.
Yeah. No. I was just gonna tie in this other passage because I I feel like it's it's directly related and it's also in John, and I think that that's why I love the gospel of John because there's the doctrine of predestination in it, It's just very prevalent within the book, and also, too, the deity of Christ along with the perseverance. And so this is in John 10, and this is like the good shepherd passages, and I'm just gonna paraphrase a little bit of what's going on before, and then I'm gonna dive into the passage here. But at the beginning, you know, when he's given the good shepherd, discourse, he talks about how, you know, the sheep my sheep hear my voice.
You know, I know them. You know, he says, a stranger they will not follow. He said, I know them. They know me. And so, and he lets them in and out of, I think, the gatefold.
Okay, so this is John 10:24-29. So, the Jews gathered around him and said, how long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you were not among my sheep.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life and they will never perish and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My father who has given them to me is greater than all and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand. You know, I and the father are 1, I think, is the next part of that. But so right there, he tells them why they don't believe.
You do not believe because you're not what my sheep. And he says, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and that he gives them eternal life and that they'll never perish. And what I love about this passage is just it's I mean, if you were to to look for a passage and try to find, like, certainty and try to find comfort and just confidence in God's promises, I think it's this passage that he says, the father who has given them to me is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the father's hand. I think with that being said, it's just, I mean, there's your confidence in his promises. I mean, that's what he's promising there is that no one will be able to snatch them out of the father's hand.
Yeah. Yeah. Verse 28, I've got NASB, but that's the translation. It says, and I give them I give them eternal life and they will never perish. Yeah.
And like you just said, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. Yeah. And I think that when looking up some of these passages about the perseverance of the saints and some of these other passages, and I think that we'll have to have another conversation about or another another episode just about maybe addressing some of the other passages that sound like you can lose your salvation. Yeah. Because I think that that's I mean, I understand, like, it's a very warranted part of the discussion because there's, you know, there's warnings in scripture.
But I also have to sit here and look at what did Christ say about his plan? And I feel like those two passages in particular just are super relevant. Yeah. Yeah. Completely agree.
Yeah. And like you'd said, there's some other passages out that are that almost kind of seem to somewhat contradict some of these teachings. Yeah. But like you'd said, you know, you you scroll through the gospels specifically and what Jesus himself said. It's it's pretty, you know, explanatory, right, when he's saying these things too and you can tell that there's a crowd that's like following him and they're super hostile towards him because he's saying these things, you know.
Yeah. He's saying, look, you're not my sheep, you know. And these guys are like, oh, well, we're ready to stone you now because we're God's people, you know? Yeah. There's even some passages that I think when the disciples are asking him to explain a certain parable that he he says, I think they make a comment about, Master, explain this to us.
Basically, we don't understand what you're saying. And he tells them that basically the Pharisees and the Sadducees, he makes a comment about how their ears are shut, their eyes are shut. You know, he said he makes a comment about how basically that they're hardened. And I think that like, you know, he tells the disciples, you know, but blessed are you because, you know, for your eyes see and your ears hear. And I think, too, like, who is behind that?
Who is behind opening their eyes and allowing them to see and allowing them to hear these spiritual truths about Christ and his message. Yeah. Behind it is God. I think that that's a really powerful statement because you do not believe because you're not my sheep. He doesn't say you do not believe because you do not understand what I'm saying, or that, you know, or you're not just not there yet.
He says, you are not my sheep. Mhmm. So that's very, very powerful. So powerful. I mean, could you imagine to like one of the teachers back then.
Right? These were teachers, you know, these were teachers of of the Torah, of the Pentateuch, you know, all of God's old testament, you know. These were the guys that were teaching this to everybody, to the Israelites. And Jesus looks them square in the face and he's like, nope. Yeah.
You're not part of the crew. You know, you're not you're not saved. Right? You're not gonna be saved, you know? And I mean, you can imagine just the just the rage that these guys were feeling towards Jesus because, you know, they felt like they were highly esteemed.
Right? But yeah. So, you know, these guys were the teachers of the law and I mean, you know, this is kind of where the apostle Paul came from too, right? Yeah. He's like I was the most devout Jew out of all of them.
I was studied beyond everybody else and I was so passionate for this Jewish faith and the Hebrew history and all that too, the scriptures, that when I saw this this way coming about and saying, no. It's all wrong, and it's actually all relating to Christ and his salvation. He's like, well then I sought out to just destroy the whole thing, you know. I wanted to see the whole thing go down and and go down burning. And so that's why I think it makes sense, you know, if if we believed something like our whole lives and we were so set on it.
We're like, yeah, this is this is it, you know. And, I'm I'm sure of it too. Yeah. And then, somebody like a public figure came up to us and they're like, actually, it was all about me to begin with and you're a 100% wrong about not a 100%, but like, you know, you're wrong about your end up your conclusions there too. We'd be like, yeah.
I don't think so. Okay. I think you're wrong, you know. Yeah. And I I think too, with I mean, because Romans in particular, that's written by Paul.
I mean, I think that, if I can use the term, was was it magnum opus? Like, it is his master work. You know, he even makes a statement about how when he comes to believe in Christ, about how if anyone was gonna be saved by their keeping of the law, it would have been him because that's how zealous he was for it. He was zealous for God's law. But I think too, as a Jew at that time, like along with like the Pharisees, how I think that they were so focused on keeping the law that they kind of didn't even think about why the law existed.
You know what I mean? And how that affected how they treated other people. Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, you know, just the fact that they were so ready to crucify Jesus too. Right?
Yeah. They were the ones that told Pilate, they said crucify him, you know. And crucifixion is one of the most awful ways to die, and they're like, yeah, crucify this guy. Right? Get rid of him.
He deserves to die. And Jesus, you know, would repeatedly constantly tell them, you're missing it. You're totally missing it. Like I am I'm the bread of life, you know? Yeah.
I'm the fulfillment of all the scriptures and everything and you're missing it. And they're like, well, you need to die, you know? Yeah. What does he say to them? He says that, you seek the scriptures or, you know, you read the scriptures.
In hopes that they'll give you life. Yeah. In hopes of eternal life. And he's like, these are the scriptures that point to me. Right.
And he's the one who, what, gives eternal life. Right. Yeah. That's a great point. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah. No. I I love that, and I love that that's why, you know, like I said, when I came across that Spurgeon quote, it just I think it really hit just because, you know, if he gives us eternal life now, by its very nature, it's it's everlasting. Mhmm.
Okay. And one other, like passage I wanted to bring up, and this is something that I know you mentioned R. C. Sproul earlier. And one of the things that I was watching one of his videos, and I thought it was a really good point that he brought up that I just never observed before, but it's in a passage in Matthew, Matthew 7.
It says, Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter in the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my father who is in heaven. On that day, many will say to me, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name cast out demons in your name and do many mighty wonder, mighty works in your name, then I will declare to them, I never knew you. Depart from me, ye workers of lawlessness or iniquity. And one of the things that he observes in that passage is that God says to them, I never knew you. And I thought that that was really interesting because it's like, well, I do believe in the doctor, like I do believe in assurance, but I also think that those people I do think that there can be such a thing as, like, false assurance.
The reason why I say that is because I do think that there are people that aren't Christ's sheep that deceive themselves into thinking that they're following God even though they could care less about God. They don't wanna do his will. They don't wanna keep his commandments. It's more of a front. I'm not saying that they're capable of keeping the law perfectly.
It's just I think in this passage, you know, they're already admitting that they do good works, wondrous works. They prophesy in his name, cast out demons. Like they do all of these things, but they're still not his sheep. They're not his people. And then he says, I never knew you.
And then Sproul remarks on that, and he says he doesn't say, I knew you for a time, and then you left me, or then you went away. He says, I never knew you. So and I think to me that that kind of indicates that they were never truly Christ's sheep. But I mean, do you see where I'm going with that? Like, does that make sense to you?
Yeah. Kind of like there was a design, right, already where there was some choosing going on from God. Right? Because if he said I never knew you, you know, that means, like, you never had a relationship with them at all. But then there's all these other passages where God's like, you know, they will know me, and I already know them.
You know? So what I mean by that is with the design thing, it's that, you know, you'd mentioned predestination, but then we're talking about perseverance here. Right? If both of those things are accurate and it's, you know, how God operates with things, then that means it's part of this design going on already also. So, you know, for me personally, in my own experience, like I said, I know it's biased just because it's my own experience, but Yeah.
I've I've seen it happen. Right? I've I've seen these moments where I get far away from God. Right? Like, really far away from God.
And because I truly believe and I feel like I've seen God's love for me, like, play out and like how he provides for me, how I feel like he's comforted me in those really dark times. Yeah. I I feel as though I'm like, well, that's not just, you know, he's not he's not just doing that to somebody he doesn't know, you know. He's not just doing that to some stranger like, yeah, here's here's some providence, you know. It's more like because I know who you are, you know, I know you, you know?
You're connected to me now. Yeah. I I'm gonna assure you that, you know, you're in the fold, that I'm gonna keep looking out for you. Yeah. And I think that there's there's intimacy there when he says, just with that term no and foreknow, I think that like in in scripture, I think sometimes that gets kinda glossed over, maybe not mentioned as much as about, the intimate nature, you know, and it's not always in the same context because there's different ways of knowing.
Abraham knew his wife, Sarah, and what we understand by that in scripture is like, well, of course he knew her, but what is scripture saying? It's saying he knew her intimately, and then right after that says, you know, obviously about her conceiving. And I think so there is that intimacy there that's kind of noted. Like, so there's like a special significance when you see about no or foreknow or, you know, foreknew. So I think like in Romans, you know, it talks about those whom he foreknew, he predestined.
Mhmm. And I think in that term foreknow or foreknew that there's that special intimate, like, relationship. Because it's like, why specify that? Because he foreknows everybody because he created everybody. So in that context, you know, those whom he foreknew, these he also called.
These he called, he justified, you know, glorified. You know the passage in, like, Romans 8. Mhmm. And further down the line, too, I think another reason why I'm a big supporter of the doctrine of perseverance is, what Paul later later on in Romans 8, you know, he talks about, you know, who is able to bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies who is he who condemns.
And I think it's kind of like a rhetorical question, you know, like who who is able to condemn if God justifies? I mean, that's such a strong powerful statement because scripture says it's God who justifies the ungodly, which is us. And if he justifies us, what can man or devil do about it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, nothing, right?
Yeah. Even if we try to do it to ourself. Yeah. A common response we're gonna get from the opponents of this position, I think, are going to be that, well, what about sin? What about these grievous sins that people commit that claim to be believers?
I mean, there's a couple different ways of looking at it. 1, it would be to assume to to make the assumption that the person is not a Christian because they committed some sort of grievous sin, I think is sometimes, you know, it's a it can be a mistake because it's like, well, look at David, committed adultery and murder. You know, he slept with Bathsheba, not his wife. He slept with another man's wife, and then he has her husband killed in battle intentionally so that he could take Bathsheba for himself. And I think, too, it's like this is a person that scripture says was a man after God's own heart.
And I think it's just kind of like you know, he has that title, but still somehow does something like this. And even you look at you look at Peter, I mean, could it be considered apostasy, what he did? Because he denies Christ. I mean, he denies him, and it's something to think about, not just once, obviously, three times. And I mean, basically, if you think something would be the last nail in the coffin, it would be that.
I mean, it's your denial of Christ. But, you know, Jesus says to Peter, I've prayed for you that your strength and that your faith may not fail. And I think too, it's like if we have, if Christ is praying for us and he's mediating on our behalf, I think that there's something, a lot to be said about that. And, because I think it's his prayer maybe in the Garden of Gethsemane where he talks about how, you know, I do not pray for these only, but for those whom you've given me out of the world that they should be 1 that, you know, as we are 1. And going back to, I think, John 10, I think it might be in the good shepherd where he says, I have other sheep that are not of this fold.
I must bring them also. Because I I think that a lot of times when we speak about God choosing the disciples, a lot of times people respond that, oh, well, it's just the disciples. He's not really correlating that. It's not really relevant to the rest of believers. But obviously, I think it is because he says, you know, I have other sheep that are not of this fold.
I must bring them also. Josh Yeah. Yeah. What's your take on that too? I mean, because not like do you interpret that as other sheep meaning not just the disciples or you're talking about like like other ethnicities and, you know, what do you think?
I kinda look at it as more of a whole, as in all the elect, all believers. Yeah. Because, you know, what does he say? I know, I I do not pray for these only, but for those who will believe from their word, you know, from the word of the disciples preaching to them. Yeah.
So, you know, if you think about it, so it's like he's not only praying for the disciples to persevere. He's praying for those who hear the words of the disciples and believe to persevere too. Right. Because what does Revelation say? It says something about how Christ has redeemed a chosen people from every tribe, tongue, and nation, you know, out of.
It doesn't say he redeemed every tribe, nation, and tongue. He says out of every tribe, nation, and tongue. Mhmm. Yeah. Absolutely.
Yeah. That's that's a good point. And so it it just made me think a lot about, you know, Paul, right, and his witness to the Gentiles specifically. Yeah. Because, you know, you talk about like the elect, right, and those who will persevere.
Well, what better basis than that first church that started off by saying that's that's only gonna be Israel. Right? That's only gonna be the Jewish people of God because it's always been like that, you know? But then they were told, especially to Peter, right? You read in the book of Acts, Peter at first kind of like tries to rebuke God when he's like, you're telling me to like witness to Gentiles now?
He's like, I don't touch anything that's unclean. You know? And God's like, don't call what I've cleansed unclean. Right? Pretty big pretty big, you know, statement there too.
I mean, it's saying like, we're gonna go above and beyond and outside the bounds of what a specific people is used to with that too because you can't just say it's only gonna be this type of people because of what you think, you know. Yeah. So, yeah. Pretty pretty big, you know, events going on back then especially when it became, you know, much more worldwide, the branching out of this gospel message to both Jewish and gentile believers too, you know? Yeah.
And what I mean, I think that I think a topic that we need to kind of dive into just a little bit with that is just the idea of, does he give perseverance to only some of those who are predestined? Because, I mean, in a conversation I had previously, obviously, on the doctrine of predestination, my previous episode, Mhmm. You know, that was briefly brought up. And I guess for me, when thinking about this topic or this doctrine, I should say, one of the things that I like to think about is he predestined he predestines them for what? And for me, it's an end.
So it's not just the beginning, but it's for a final result of his reasoning for predestinate, you know, predestinating. For me, it would seem rather pointless for God to predestine someone who he already knows isn't going to persevere to the end, or if he doesn't give or he already knows he's not going to give them the gifts of perseverance. So, in my mind, it's like why even give them or why even predestine them in the first place if you know that you're not going to end up giving them the gift of perseverance so that they persevere until the end. So I think that that's one way of looking at it because I mean, does that make sense? Do you kinda see where I'm coming from?
Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying, so kinda dub it down for me, you're saying why would God, like, give people the option? Well Is that what you're saying? I think what I'm trying to get at is more of if there are believers that don't persevere to the end, predestinated believers, people that are predestined before the foundation of the world to be quote unquote elect or predestined to at least believe temporarily, why predestine them and then not give them the gifts of perseverance?
Oh, I see what you're saying. I gotcha. So for me, it just seems like both are equally God's gifts. And like Calvin talks about how I think it's Calvin who makes a statement about how, I think it's Evette Augustine makes a similar statement about how it's a much greater thing to continue in something or complete it than it is to start it. Mhmm.
And I think that that's very true. I mean, you look at I mean, even in fitness, I mean, it's a great thing to start, you know, a 30 day workout challenge. Mhmm. It's a whole another thing to complete it. It's much harder to complete it.
Yeah. So I mean, if you think about it, it's like, and I'm not saying the first part's easy, but I'm saying that the second part, the completing, the continuing, and then the final completion, is far greater of a thing than the initiation. And so I think for me, I think that that's why you know, when Paul and Calvin both bring up about, you know, the gift and calling of God being irrevocable, you know, what gift are we talking about? I think that that's the question. And for me, I've always interpreted it as saying the gift of eternal life because, I mean, that that is a gift that he's giving to his sheep.
What are you what are your thoughts on that? Yeah. No, I totally agree, and it makes me also think of, you know, tying it back to Christ's work on the cross. Right? He said it is finished.
You know? He's like, this work is completed now. You know? This whole idea of offering an entire sacrifice to God that's pleasing and satisfying to God against God's wrath. Right?
Because of his perfect wrath. Right? Yeah. So it's it's completed. It's already done.
You know? It doesn't it like, when we let me let me try to even zoom it from the cross to us now in the time that we live in. You know, that happened over 2000 years ago. Right? And he said it was finished back then.
He didn't say we're almost there or now it's started. Right? He's like, no. It's done. You know?
And with it being finished, that means it's always finished now. Right? It's finished. Like, the story has come to an end with that sacrifice, you know? Yeah.
I think Mhmm. What are you thinking? Well, I'm thinking, like, the idea of, like I think Christ finished his work that he was, that he carried out the will of the father, that like his work was complete and perfect. I mean, I don't think that I don't think his work like, I think his work is done when it comes when it comes to, the righteous life that he lived, when it comes to his death on the cross and the, the benefits and the gifts, the you know, all the all the things that I mean, that can be very complex just because thinking about his death on the cross and what it's accomplished, you know, like the atonement, justification, just all of those different aspects of looking at it, I think, can be kind of overwhelming to think about, like, all of what he's accomplished in his death on the cross. But I think it's also important to not leave out that even though I think his work is done when it comes to his incarnation, his life, and his sacrifice, all of that, but obviously he continues to, since he's at the right hand of the father, you know, he continues to make intercession for us.
And so I like to think of it and, you know, that his prayer for us continues. Not that his sacrifice continues, but that his like the prayer and his intercession for us on our behalf because, Arthur Pink kind of picks up on this about, I haven't read all of it. I I was pretty overwhelmed by just the size of the book. I mean, he's got an exposition of Hebrews, and it's just yeah, I'll have to get dive back into it. But one of the things that he mentions that I thought was really interesting is that when he notes how when Christ finished his work on the cross that, you know, and he ascends into heaven that he does what?
He sits down at the right hand of the father. And he notes how in the old testament when the priests are making sacrifices, he said they didn't have any chairs there because their work was never done. And I just love that because it's like they had to constantly make sacrifices continually, first for themselves and then for the people. And it was obviously more of a symbolic thing because Hebrews talks about how the blood of goats and heifers can't atone for sins. But the body of Christ did.
And so I do love that compare and contrasting there because it's like you see that his work and his sacrifice is completed. No other sacrifices need to be made because he's already made the one, you know, perfect sacrifice. Yeah, for sure. And that's what the entire book of Hebrews is all about too, right? How there was this old system and it required, like you said, repetitive sacrificing and, the leaders, the priests, they'd have to give give of themselves to keep trying to cleanse their people.
Yeah. But because of what Christ did, he was like the fulfillment of that. You know, the very beginning of Hebrews says, in the past, God spoke to us through prophets and priests, but now he's, you know, speaking to us through Christ. Right? Yeah.
So it's just the whole idea of like Christ kind of did that, you know, organizational role. I should say like the the leader role over the organization. Right? And took that sacrifice for everyone. But I love that quote from Pink.
Right? Just but he's he's sat down now. Yeah. And he did it, you know, he finished it, you know? Yeah.
He finished his work, and it's just he finished that sacrifice. And if you think about it, I mean, looking at the old testament sacrifices and, you know, the tabernacle sacrifices, the things in them, they were so specific, and, you know, a lot of times when we do, you know, we try to do that Bible in a year thing, you know, we usually get to the point of the sacrifices, and then we're like we get overwhelmed, and we're like, this is very repetitive and, like, the detail of the tabernacle, the dimensions, and it's it's so specific. And I think the reasoning is because it talks about how it's copies. It's just earthly copies of what's in heaven. And so, it's like if you think about when Christ came, so he did not need to make offerings and sacrifices for himself because he was sinless.
So the priest had to do that. He didn't have to, but then he does make a sacrifice of himself for the people. And then so, you know, I think that him entering into, you know, the heavenly tabernacle, and then he's able to continue to make that intercession for us on our behalf Yeah. With God the father. Yeah.
For sure. And that that's also, you know, tying it into this this whole theme of perseverance also. Right? Because it's like, okay. Cool.
Jesus did all of that. You know? But people still think that, you know, like, this perseverance thing isn't gonna happen if you commit too many sinful acts. Right? Yeah.
And it's like, at that point, you know, when does somebody's, like, unrepentant sinful life overtake what Christ did for them, you know, if they've already been redeemed, if they've already been forgiven and all of that as well. Right? Like, what does that actually look like? So yeah. What what do you I don't know if you wanted to hop to another subject or not or Or to touch on that a little bit.
Divulge a little bit in that. Yeah? Yeah. I'd you know, I my response is probably not gonna be as clear as I'd like it because I don't have the resource in front of me right now, but what I would like to say to that is you know, just about, like, what you said about the continuing sinning. Mhmm.
You know, and going back to the sin in the door about how they reference, you know, these, these serious falls by David, by Peter, whether it's apostasy, whether it's murder, adultery. And I'm not saying like believers should go out and do those things and just that that I think that that is the accusation that's going to be made from the other side who disagrees with the doctrine of perseverance because I think what they are fearful of is that if someone believes that they're gonna persevere to the end, that they're gonna get weak, that they're not going to obey the commands of God, that they're gonna be slothful. And I, you know, I I understand to some degree where they're coming from, but I also think too that, like, you know, I think it's Philippians, you know, he who began a good work and you will bring it to completion. I I think that there's many times in scripture where there's parts that it kind of tries to give you hope and reassurances. For example, that, you know, where I think it's Christ says something about how, you know, rejoice for your names are written in the book of life.
Mhmm. Well, he tells them that their names are written in the book of life, and it's like, I think James also has a passage about that that you may know that you're children of God, and and, I know I'm, like, just bouncing off a lot of different passages out there. But another one I really love is that one BB Warfield brought up about how and I never really thought of it before this, or put too much thought of thought into it, but the holy spirit testifying with your own spirit that you are children of God and are heirs, heirs of the promise of the kingdom. And what else is that but to give you comfort, to give you assurance, not in yourself, but in God's promises? And, one last thing I think I wanna bring up too is that, another objection I think you're gonna get is the Synod, of Dort addresses this as well about can Christians commit the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit and, the sin that leads to death.
I don't know if those are 1 and the same. I I haven't studied it enough, but one of the things, that I thought was interesting is I think it might be in 1st John. The Synod of Dort brings this up, and they say that right after he talks about the sin that leads to death and not praying for those people that that commit it, he makes a statement that, you know, those who are of God no longer sin. And they say that it's the sin of death that he's referring to. And I think that that actually makes sense because if that succeeds or if that follows that passage about, the sin that leads to death and he makes that reference, I think it directly applies because if you think about it, it's like, well, if we don't, if we take it at face value and say that, you know, he who's God's children, you know, they don't sin, Well, we know that that's not true because believers sin.
It's evident in the scriptures and in our own lives. So we know that believers do go on sinning, but like they it's not what they want. They want to be obedient to God, and they want to keep his commands because they love God. Mhmm. And I think that that's where the process of sanctification comes in, and then the final process, final completion of sanctification is glorification.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So and you brought up the, like, the you know, it it's termed as the unforgivable sin. Right?
The blasphemy against the holy spirit. Yeah. I I can't tell you, for the longest time I wrestled with that, right, like what was that, you know? Mhmm. And have I done it, you know?
Yeah. I think that that's something that you you read the passage, and if if you're anything like me, you can, you can dwell on stuff like that a lot, and it can really take a toll on just like your just your mental health because it's like you're fixating on it, and you're like, have I done this, or is this something I will do? You know, I do think that there's obviously spiritual forces, and I do think that there's times that I know you and me have had this conversation before just over the phone about how sometimes if you're trying to read the Bible or read, you know, just any theological work that's, you know, obviously about Christ, and then sometimes you get those thoughts that come in, and you're like, I don't get these thoughts when I'm reading just a normal fiction book, Yep. But sometimes I get them when I'm reading, you know, Christian books, and it does make you wonder why. And it it does make you wonder if that's the devil or or demonic forces maybe trying to deter you from, growing in your faith.
Yeah. 100%. Yes. Specifically, the bible too. I mean, I I I have shared this with you over the phone.
Like you'd said, there were so many moments where it just became so obvious to me. Yeah. I would just have a little bit of free time, right, for, like, a period of time, and I would just be kinda sitting there twiddling my thumb saying, oh, what should I do right now? You know? And I have, you know, this is when phones became a thing also, so we were all used to using our phones and I'd have the option to do many things.
I'd have the option to hop on my phone, maybe hop on social media, or I had the option to read my Bible, or I had the option of you know, whatever, doing something else instead. And, the most resistance I'd felt every single time was when I said, I should read my bible. Right? I should hop into, I don't know, like a reading plan or something, right? Something.
Yeah. But but just getting into the bible itself, there was always this resistance. Right? And it was always through like a thought pattern like no that's stupid or don't waste your time, you know? And I think that's pretty, I don't know, it's pretty relevant, right?
And it stands out a lot, especially when you notice it keeps happening over and over and over again too like you'd said. I really did notice that when I would read the bible, like during those times where I decided to read the bible, I'd feel really good afterwards, you know? I'd feel really like secure and I'd feel peaceful and everything, but the times where I didn't, maybe I just wouldn't feel that great, you know? Yeah. And then I kind of examined that pattern.
I'm like the times where I'd read the Bible would feel good. The times I didn't, I wouldn't feel that great, but then I'd still keep noticing this repetitive, like, no, don't don't waste your time with that, you know? Yeah. So, yeah, it's pretty pretty fascinating because we can't see if there's some type of a demonic influence telling us not to read the Bible, we can't see it, you know? Yeah.
We just internalize it. We think we're getting these thoughts thrown into our head too. Maybe it's us sometimes doing it also, but we just we can't a 100% detect it because it's a part of that invisible realm going on that we believe is actually happening right now, you know? Yeah. And I think it can be difficult to kind of determine or try to understand, like, are these thoughts that are just popping into your brain randomly?
Are these thoughts that are are being influenced or maybe being, you know, like, obviously, like what you said, the discouragement and things like that. Like, is that, you know, spiritual demonic forces trying to influence your behavior. Mhmm. And I think that that's that's a very interesting question. I mean, that's that's one we'll have to definitely have to do an episode on Yeah.
And try to, like cause I mean, that's not like my strong suit. I don't you know, and I I think real quick, I wanted to bring up about how, just this idea too. I've I've listened to, I know I always bring him up, but Skrull just because he's one of my favorite guys. Yeah. Especially modern you know, he's one you know, he was one of my favorite, like modern day theologians, and he talks about how a lot of even believers don't really realize that the devil can't perform miracles.
Only God can perform miracles, but a lot of believers believe that the devil can, even though scripture talks about how he's able to perform any lying signs and wonders, and it's more of deceptions, but they're not real miracles because only God is capable of performing miracles. And like going if we have a podcast episode about this, I think it'd be really kind of interesting to dive into what are they capable of, what are they not capable of. You know what I mean? And too, when it comes to believers, to what extent are they permitted by God to influence them. Yeah.
But, yeah, we'll definitely have to have to talk about that. So is there any, for someone who may be on the fence about this issue with the gifts of perseverance, do you have any words of encouragement or any other comments that you would like to add to the mix and, you know, try to get our listeners thinking about it? Yeah. Maybe as a word of encouragement specifically. So, like we talked about before, a lot of people don't believe in this.
Right? They don't believe that, you know, God's gonna carry you along the whole way. Yeah. And for whatever reason that might be, you know, totally respect that. You probably reached your conclusions because of a lot of whatever research or studying or maybe personal beliefs about stuff, but I definitely believe that.
I definitely believe because I've seen it in my own life. I've seen God actually and it's not like I'm saying I believe it because I'm kind of putting pieces together and, like, you know, every once in a while it happens. I've seen it so many times now that I can't even begin to tell you, like, how real it actually is to me. So one thing that's really helped me in the past, and I would recommend anybody that's listening to this that has the opportunity to do so, which I think everybody does, is to actually pray to the Holy Spirit. Pray to the Holy Spirit and ask the Holy Spirit.
Because if we believe the Holy Spirit's God, we're allowed to pray to him. Right? It's not saying you shouldn't pray to Jesus. It's not saying you shouldn't pray to God the father if you believe in the trinity, but specifically the Holy Spirit. Right?
I believe you're allowed to pray to the Holy Spirit and ask the Holy Spirit to do stuff for you. Right? I don't think that we should ever get away from praying to Jesus, nor should we get away from praying to God the Father. But I think that specifically, you're allowed to ask the Holy Spirit to do stuff for you if he wants to. Right?
And one thing that I've done in the past, which actually worked, was I'd asked the Holy Spirit to show me things. I said, can you please show me can you reveal to me whether or not I'm a part of, you know, the family, the household of God? Right? Because if I'm not, I would like to be. You know?
So if anybody's questioning that, I think that's a great thing to pray. And also, I think it's really important to ask God to show you through his word and maybe through other believers. Right? If, you know, the salvation is not only a real thing, but how far does it go? Right?
Like you'd said before, it's like, is it is it something where God meant for it to be a means to an end. Right? It's it's totally a completion act. So I would definitely recommend if anybody out there is feeling like they're kind of struggling with this and thinking like, I don't think God saves people forever. I think they have an opportunity to lose that salvation, that perseverance isn't really gonna hold up forever for everybody.
I think that, you know, you should pray to God about that and you should ask God to, like, show you, and I think the Holy Spirit's really good at doing that because he's did it he's done it with me before, right, through the word and through other believers and even internally with me also. So I recommend as a word of encouragement, next time you pray, just ask the holy spirit to show you things about perseverance and, you know, maybe show you things you never, how do I say this kindly. Right? Maybe, like, ask God to show you things kind of against your own will, maybe? Maybe your own ego?
Like things that, you know, maybe you'd land on a certain point and you'd ask God like, can you like help me see beyond that though if I'm wrong? Right? It's hard to admit that, you know, when we're wrong it's hard to admit that sometimes, so would definitely say pray to God. Prayer is number 1 always, because if you feel what's what's the scripture verse? You know, he who's struggling needs to pray.
You know? When you're happy, you know, sing sing praise, right? It's just the whole idea of staying connected to God directly. So definitely pray that the Holy Spirit would show you more about perseverance, and I think he will. Okay, okay, awesome.
Thank you. I guess I've never really thought of praying to the holy spirit. Like that's something, you know. Not a I didn't either. I didn't used to for a long time, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, I understand what you're saying though. I mean, obviously if we believe in the trinity, we believe he is God. I guess I've always kind of viewed it more of like we pray to God the father in Christ's name Sure. Or we pray to God the father to have the holy spirit keep us on the right path or Yeah. Or or reveal things to us.
Yep. But it would be praying to God the Father that the holy, that he has the holy spirit do x, y, or z. But like, yeah, so I think that, yeah, that's something I'll have to, like, look more into just because, you know, I I guess I've never really thought of it in in that sort of context. Yeah, can I cut you off for one second? Yeah.
Yeah. And just to be clear, right, because I think where it's easy to run into the weeds with this is to just get too carried away with that. Right? Because I think that's where a lot of churches have kinda just gone too far. They're like it's all holy spirit, you know?
And we're not focused on Christ and his sacrifice. And like you said, Jesus even said, when you pray, pray our father. Right? And the Lord's prayer. Right?
The classic Lord's prayer. So my opinion about that, like I said, it's just an opinion. It's just based off of what I've learned over the years and stuff, but my opinion is Christ is not physically present with us down here Yeah. But in a sense, the holy spirit is. Right?
But the Holy Spirit lifts our prayers to Christ whom they go through to God the father. Right? So it's kind of like an interactive trinitarian way of praying, but like I'd said, I think you gotta be careful with that sometimes and you gotta use discernment. But I think we're allowed to pray to the holy spirit. I don't think that like, what I'm trying to say is we're not depending on the holy spirit in the same way we're depending on Jesus.
You know? Because Jesus is the second member of the trinity. That's what I believe. And Jesus is the one that gave his life for everybody. Right?
Yeah. But the Holy Spirit works in concert with Christ and the father too. So prayer life especially, right, like we can see throughout scripture. I know we're getting into another subject entirely. I don't wanna I don't wanna derail from your closing points here.
Yeah. But all I'm saying is with the holy spirit specifically, I think you're allowed to interact with him on a very personal level too because believe he's a person. Right? 3rd person in the trinity. And you're allowed to ask things of him.
Right? But I do think exactly like you said, I think what we're actually doing though is when we do that, we're asking for God as a whole to do each one's role in providing what we're asking for. Right? Does that make sense? Yeah.
I think that that makes sense. Yeah. Because I mean Didn't wanna get you No. No. I think Like, what are you talking about?
Yeah. I think I think each, you know, each person in the trinity has their own function, and so I guess that, you know, because I have actually been asked that question before. I don't know if the person was a believer or not a believer. They actually asked me on Instagram and were like, you know, is it 3 gods or is it just like they were confused about it. Yeah.
And they were like, and who do you pray to out of the 3? Yeah. And it did make me wonder if the person, the way in which that they were interacting with me, I have no idea if they have maybe, you know, I'm not sure of what their familiarity with, you know, if they were religious or not religious. The way in which it was phrased, it kind of made me think it came from someone who might have had a Muslim background Okay. Because they kind of said things that I feel like were a little bit more of objections from an Islamic standpoint.
Sure. Because I think that they really struggle with the concept of a trinity and, you know, because they don't they don't believe in that concept. You know? But, yeah, I I think it was just it was very fascinating interaction, and I and I try to explain, the trinity, you know, to the best of my ability to them, but that's That's awesome. I'm sorry.
I didn't mean to No. No. Off in the middle of yeah. No. I I just wanna do a quick plug real quickly too for anybody.
If anybody's listening that is coming from more of a Muslim background too, really great person who unfortunately is no longer with us. His name is is was Nabil Qureshi. He wrote a book called Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus, and he explains the Trinity so well. Does he? Okay.
I've seen that book and I was curious about it. Yeah. I didn't read the whole thing, but I'll tell you, if you need to look up a good reference as to how to kind of understand, like, the whole idea of the trinity better, he does such a good job, like, on YouTube videos too. So if you don't wanna read and you wanna just look up YouTube videos, some great stuff by him. So, yeah.
Sorry. Quick plug there. Yeah. No. No.
I appreciate it. I mean it I mean, I enjoy learning about it and if anyone's made it this far, I'm sure that they probably do too. So, but yeah, thanks, Corey. I really appreciate you being on the show again second time now so it's starting to become a trend. Yeah.
So I'll definitely have to have you on again. Thanks again man. Okay. No problem man. Yeah.
My pleasure. All right talk to you later. All right See you.