White Knights, Reviling Wives, and Biblical Headship | Dr. David Edgington

Dr. David Edgington joins me to discuss one of the most controversial subjects in modern Christianity: biblical patriarchy, male headship, submission, and the growing influence of what he calls "white knight counseling."

Drawing from decades of pastoral ministry and biblical counseling, Dr. Edgington explains the concepts behind his book White Knights and Reviling Wives and argues that many Christian marriages are being damaged by fear-driven control, misplaced blame, and counseling approaches that ignore biblical authority structures.

We discuss the "reviling wife," the role of the "white knight" pastor or counselor, parental alienation, fear and control in marriage, and why these issues often leave fathers separated from their children. We also examine Genesis 3:16, the debate over whether a wife's desire is "for" or "contrary to" her husband, and why Paul grounds male headship in creation order rather than culture.

Topics discussed:
• White Knights and Reviling Wives explained
• Fear, control, and conflict in marriage
• Biblical patriarchy vs. complementarianism
• Male headship and female submission
• Genesis 3:16 and the Fall
• Ephesians 5, 1 Timothy 2, and 1 Peter 3
• Parental alienation and its effects on children
• The influence of feminism on family structures
• Distinguishing biblical authority from abuse
• Marriage when spouses come from different Christian traditions

Dr. Edgington's book White Knights and Reviling Wives is available through New Christendom Press. 

If you enjoy thoughtful conversations on Reformed theology, biblical counseling, church history, apologetics, and Christian living, subscribe to The Restless Theologian and leave a review.

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

Zechariah Eshack 0:25

Today I'm joined by Dr. David Edgington, who's the founder and executive director of Compassionate Counselors. He's a pastor, he's a biblical counselor, and an author. And I believe he's authored five books. And for more than three decades, Dr. Edgington has served in pastoral ministry and we're in which he has trained uh church leaders in biblical counseling, both in the U.S. and internationally. And with his latest book, White Knights and Reviling Wives, which is through New Christendom Press, which I actually just finished last night. It was a great read. I really enjoyed it. Um, you often address like some of the overlooked issues that can happen in marriage when it comes to issues of manipulation, verbal abuse, um, fear-driven control, which I felt like was a big um kind of theme that I noticed with the reviling wife. And so I figured what we'll do today is talk about um biblical patriarchy, uh, complementarianism, and um egalitarianism, and then as well as meleheadship, submission, and um covenant authority. So with all that being said, um, you know, welcome to the show. I appreciate you coming on the show, Dr. Edgington. How are you?

Dr. David Edgington 1:38

Great, thank you. It's very, very good to be here. Good to meet you, Zachariah.

Zechariah Eshack 1:42

Yeah, thank you. Thank you. Um, I really love the book, and um I finished it just in time. I watched several, several of your interviews, and um, I just appreciated your approach and then not only your pastoral care when talking about this matter, but just the sensitivity around it. Like you don't, I don't feel like you you don't mince words, but you also don't um uh how what do I want to say? You don't want to be like you don't come across like overbearing or like this needs to be authoritarian in our mindset as men. So um, so what inspired you to write uh White Knights and Reviling Wives, which I love the title by the way. I don't know

Why He Wrote The Book

Zechariah Eshack 2:25

how you came up with that.

Dr. David Edgington 2:27

Well, it's um actually the the book that I wrote 11 years ago, The Abuse of Wife, was what kind of fostered the White Knights and Reviling Wives. And the subtitle is How Feminism Destroys Families. And uh the original book, The Abusive Wife, once I started talking on podcasts with a few people about that, it really just exploded because it's an issue that nobody talks about. Nobody wants to address, very few people understand it, but then the ones that do understand it don't really want to speak up about it and address it. And yet what I was seeing, and I'm a full-time neuthetic counselor, as you mentioned, and uh and also uh a senior pastor. What I had been seeing was so many families just ripped apart and just destroyed, and um I noticed that no one was talking about this issue. So that was what started the abuse of wife, the the book that I wrote, the first book that I wrote. And then in this in the subsequent years after I wrote that, I found after counseling hundreds of these situations, I think as of today, I probably have counseled over five hundred of them, at least. I just kind of stopped counting. But it's not just one or two, it's not just well, this church or a bad church here, or bad church. I mean, it's widespread. It's across all churches, all denominations, all theologies. Um it's in Reformed, it's in Armidian, it's in Catholic, it's in Eastern Orthodox, it's across the board. There's no there's no denomination that is immune to this. But um but I found that still, even ten years later, no one was talking about this. So I thought I've learned a lot in those intervening years between the abusive wife and the white knight book, and I had to write even more about it because it was I was originally just going to modify the abusive wife in kind of an expanded edition.

Zechariah Eshack 4:32

Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 4:33

And then I recognized there was so much more material that I needed to put in. It was it was a whole new book. So so New Christen New Christendom approached me about publishing the book, and I was grateful for that. And and uh and the book has done very well. I've gotten a lot of lot of attention. Um the counseling was busy before that book out came out, and now it's even more busy. Now it's just it's just off the charts. And um the other thing, Zekarize, this problem is is not just in America. This is nation, this is nationwide, it's worldwide.

Zechariah Eshack 5:07

Yeah, I saw that you've you've counseled uh like couples in um Russia, uh Bolaris, um, Czech Republic, I believe. Correct.

Dr. David Edgington 5:19

And even our our friends up in Canada too. I I counsel a lot of people in in Canada that have this problem, but but yeah, the Netherlands, Icelands, um I mean it's it's almost like countries that's you you you can't you can can't stop naming all the countries. So it's not an American problem, it's a spiritual problem, and it's a it's a problem that has infected the body of Christ, the church at large. And we have to wake up to this because it's the other problems we're seeing in the church are kind of downstream from this issue. In other words, the white knight issue, and but probably should define what that term means in case the listeners are not familiar with it.

Zechariah Eshack 6:02

Yeah, if you wouldn't mind um just defining white knight, reviling wives, reviling wives, yeah. And then we'll probably get into um patriarchy, complementarianism, and egalitarianism. What was surprising to me when reading the book is I mean, I felt like I didn't like I kind of had a cursory understanding of what complementarianism is, and I kind of just assumed that I was in that bucket. But as soon as I read your book, I was like, oh no, I definitely lean lean biblical patriarchy. And and that's really offensive today, but I think it's it's interesting because I feel like when things aren't that way, they're a little bit more of a matriarchy where you don't have this balance, it usually ends up being one or the other. But yes, yeah, if you you want to mind defining that for us, that'd be great.

Dr. David Edgington 6:48

Yeah, yeah. The terms in the

Defining Reviling Wife And White Knight

Dr. David Edgington 6:50

title of the book are very important to understand. Um, some of the terms are familiar, some are some people are not familiar with them. I'll start with the idea of the reviling wife. So the reviling wife is a woman that uses her words as a non-contact weapon. So she's she's harsh, she's bitter, she's controlling, she's um unsubmissive, she wants things to be her way, and um and you know, a lot of people don't realize that there are a lot of women like that that have been trained to be that way because of the feminist infiltration, not only in society, but also in the church.

Zechariah Eshack 7:28

Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 7:29

And so there's two different types of the what I would call the rebellious wife. There's the one that reviles, and she's like I was describing, harsh and cruel and unrepentant about that. But then there's the other type of a rebellious wife that's more passive, and she is quiet, and she just resists and says, No, I just won't do that. You know, a husband may want her to do something very innocent, and she says, No, I'm not gonna do that. And um, you know, maybe she has a job and her husband says, You know, I'd rather you stay at home with the children and let me provide for the family. She says, No, I'm gonna keep I'm gonna keep working. Uh, you know, so it's a passive type of resistance, and yet it's still a rebellion against God's order. And God's order is the patriarchal view, which says that the word patriarch simply means father rule. It's two Greek words that are put together. Yeah, it's not oppressive, it's not harsh, it's not cruel. You know, just because we use the word rule does not mean it's it's a wicked type of a rule. So so this is the first piece of the puzzle that the reviling wife is a much more common problem than we realize. Even after all of the podcasts I've done, all the talking I've done, all of this that's happened, we're still not seeing the problem. And this is why. It's because of the second word, the white knight. So the white knight is the uh is the man that is involved in the counseling of this family. He could be a pastor, he could be a counselor, he could be an ACBC counselor like myself, a neuthetic counselor.

Zechariah Eshack 9:14

Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 9:14

And he defends the wife. So, in other words, if the wife is angry, he says, Well, husband, what did you do to make your wife so angry? Or if the wife is riddled with fear and then she gets angry, he says, Well, why are you frightening your wife so much?

Zechariah Eshack 9:31

Even though the fear may be completely unreasonable.

Dr. David Edgington 9:34

Right. It may be an irrational irrational fear, and yet the husband gets blamed. But then when the husband is angry, or the husband is, you know, fearful, well, why you why are you so angry, husband? So, you know, so th this is just a simplified version of it, but it's it's uh it's an epidemic in the church. The white knight not only does not uh accurately give a diagnosis of the problem in the marriage, but he actually blames the wrong person.

Zechariah Eshack 10:04

Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 10:05

So you think about it, you have a man that's that's coming to get help because he can't get his wife to uh follow him just in simple things. We're not talking about sinful following. In other words, not the husband wants the wife to sin and you know that's a it's a wicked thing. It's not that at all. It's just in simple everyday things, and the wife says, No, I won't do that. So he's coming for help because he can't resolve the problems with his wife. He goes to his church, which is exactly what he should do. Yeah, goes to the pastor, and the pastor not only does not help him, but the pastor actually blames him for the problem. So it's like, wait, I I'm trying to get some help. Well, you're the one that's the problem. So the so the crushing burden on the poor man from his wife, and then from the pastor, and then if it gets to the courts, you know, if the marriage is getting dissolved, now he's gonna get ripped apart in the courts as well,

How Kids Get Pulled In

Dr. David Edgington 11:05

it's absolutely devastating. So, so this is the the dynamic, and the other part how feminism destroys families, the reason I use the word families there is because the children in these homes, those are the ones that are affected the most.

Zechariah Eshack 11:23

Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 11:23

And there's a term called parental alienation. I have a whole chapter in the book on this, where the wife will turn the children against the father. He's not a good man, he's not a good father, he's abusive to me, he's he's not someone you want to follow, you don't want to trust him. But it's all part of the plan of the reviling wife to turn the children against the father. And then the father often loses all contact with his children. Some of these fathers never see their children again, and these are not evil, wicked men. Yeah, there are bad men out there, we know that. Yeah, but these these are not the ones that we're talking about. These are good men that are godly, that are humble. They may be more passive than they should be, and yet they're the ones that are easily controlled by the reviling wife and by the white knight pastor. Because he's typically not gonna fight back. He's gonna go, okay, I must be I must be really blind and I must be really prideful because everybody sees that I'm the problem. I don't understand how I how I'm the problem. I'm not doing these things. So this is the dynamic that goes on, and it is devastating. It is absolutely devastating. So now you think about it, that if this dynamic has happened with the marriage, with the children, now it's going to perpetuate in a whole new generation. So, in other words, the little boy and the little girl that grow up in this environment, yeah, they see that their father is a bad man because of what everybody says. So now it affects the little boys, saying, Okay, I've got to be more passive and effeminate, and then the little girls thinking I've got to be more aggressive and tough. And it just perpetuates the whole problem, a whole nother generation. So we really have to get this right. We have to put a stop to this because it is it is devastating. And I keep using the word epidemic, and it's not an exaggeration. I my my counseling is almost solely in this area now, because there's so many people that are struggling with this today.

Zechariah Eshack 13:39

And you said it's like roughly 80% of probably the the couples that you see like that. Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 13:44

Um one of them might even be higher than that now.

Zechariah Eshack 13:48

So yeah, well,

Passive Husbands And Misplaced Blame

Zechariah Eshack 13:50

one of the things I I think you have a point when it comes to the just the passive man, because I've tended to note notice that like when I was reading the book, obviously there's varying degrees of the reviling life where it could be just sheer unsubmissiveness versus, like you said, false accusations. And I I've I've had um a friend, you know, a good friend where there's just most passive, nonchalant guy, and then, you know, out of the blue, you know, accused of, you know, hitting one of the kids. And he's like, I've never done this. And it does, it does make you wonder. It's like where where is that coming from? Um uh like I think part of the problem too is women aren't held accountable that when something like that is um deemed to be false, like it's completely false accusation. Um it's but that's I think that's the problem though. They feel like they have a warrant to make false accusations, false police reports, and then if they just get a slap on the wrist, it's like, well, what's to stop this from happening again to men over and over again? Correct. And um, but I do think that um the reviling wife, I do think that some women who are a little bit over-domineering tend to pick passive men, and it's almost like because they know that they can control them. Correct. I've talked to my wife about this where I I think that like I we we have discussions about this, and one of the things I said that I tend to notice with some men where after a while, it's what they what the woman wants, but before long, they almost lose respect for their husbands. But it's it almost seems like um they they think that that's what they want, but then when they get into a relationship like that, it's almost like well, they they're almost become interested in other men because they see them as more masculine. Um do you find that, or do you think it's that do you think that they just prefer that type of guy where it's they're just passive and they just want to stay that you know, stay with that type of guy?

Dr. David Edgington 15:52

I mean, I agree with the first part of what you said. I think a strong, aggressive wife is going to seek out a passive man like that. I think that's absolutely true. And likewise, I think it look works the other way. The passive man is probably seeking out an aggressive wife as well. Says, okay, I I want a wife that's, you know, she knows what she wants and and uh and I'll just kind of fit in there, but I'll be the figurehead as the leader. But I would disagree with the part where I think the wife loses respect for the husband because he won't lead. I don't think that's the case. Okay, because because what I've seen over and over again is when I'm in one of these situations and the man starts to lead and he starts to take authority in his home in a godly way. Yeah, the wife does not just say, Oh, good, that's what I wanted all along. She fights him even harder now.

Zechariah Eshack 16:49

Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 16:50

See, we have to be giving the responsibility to the person that's in sin, not blame the other person for the sin. So in other words, the wife is already harsh and bitter and controlling. That's not because the husband is passive, that's because of her own hard heart.

Zechariah Eshack 17:07

Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 17:08

Because if we say, well, it's because he's not doing his job the right way, then we're like, well, now we're kind of doing the white knight thing, aren't we? We're saying, well, you're the you're to blame, husband, for what she's doing. It's like, we don't want to do that. We say, husband, if you're in sin, and if a husband is so passive he won't lead his life, that that is sin. You know, that that is. But if the wife is insisting on being controlling and dominating and saying, no, it's going to be the way I want it to be, she's in sin. Don't blame the guy, you know, for for her sin. Don't blame her for his sin either. So so I would keep those two things separate and say, no, let's let's keep the responsibility where God does.

Genesis 3 16 And Translation Shifts

Zechariah Eshack 17:50

Kind of I kind of wanted to go back to um, I thought you brought this up several times in the book, and I thought it was a really good point. And depending on what translation of the Bible you read, where you know, in Genesis 3.16, you talk about um, I'll just read the passage real quick. Uh to the woman he said, I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing, and pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you. But then I've also noticed, I think that you mentioned in the older ESV translations that it says, Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, and he shall rule over you. So I think that that's quite of a difference in understanding of like if her desire is contrary to her husband, you know, some of the women that um kind of operate more solely on their feelings and a little bit more of wanting to control the man. Right. Um so there's gonna be that power dynamic where one's gonna want to lead. And um I yeah, I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts. Like, as do you think that that is the accurate translation or how it should be understood is that the desire should be contrary to the husband?

Dr. David Edgington 19:00

Yeah, you know, I I just kind of happened on that issue by accident because I had I had a um an ESV that was from uh let's see 20 from 2016 to 2024, the ESV translated Genesis 316 as your desire shall be contrary to your husband. And all the other ones say shall be for your husband, desire before your husband. And I go, Huh, I wonder why they changed it. And then in 2025, when my book White Nice was coming out, they changed it back again. So in other words, it said your desire should be for your husband, then it said contrary to your husband, and then they went back to for your husband. And and I go, you know what happened was some effeminate scholars got in there and said, Oh no, you can't say contrary to that's that's too offensive. Now, these are all just opinions of mine. Obviously, I can't prove this. Yeah, but I go, why would they change it back?

Zechariah Eshack 20:09

And um Well, there was kind of like a parallel, right? Because a a chapter or two later with Cain.

Dr. David Edgington 20:15

Genesis 4 7. Right. Genesis 4 7, the same thing, same words, same word group is there that um sin is crouching at the door, its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it. It makes no sense that its desire is for you, except in the sense of it's for you in the sense of it wants to control you.

Zechariah Eshack 20:40

Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 20:41

So the interesting thing is conservative scholars have always looked at Genesis 3.16 that its desire, uh her desire is for her husband as being a bad thing, not a good thing. It's part of the fall.

Zechariah Eshack 20:57

So even if it was that translation, even if it was that, you know, they they still look at it that way.

Dr. David Edgington 21:03

They just kind of massage it and say, well, for in a sense of against and all that, it's like, okay, that's kind of strange. So even even with the other translation, your desire should be for your husband. They still they still look at it. Well, this is part of the fall, because this is the curse, this is what's happened as a result of sin in the world. And um, and the same with the Genesis 4-7 passage that uh sin's desire is for you, for you in what way? For controlling you, for overcoming you, for taking over your life. Yeah, it's certainly not sin wants to bless you, sin wants to be kind to you, sin wants to be loving towards you. It's always the opposite. So the ESV got it right for nine years, eight, nine years there. And I thought, wow, good, that's great. And then, I mean, it literally just as my book was going to be published, they changed it back, and I thought, wow. So I put a footnote.

Zechariah Eshack 21:58

They knew your book was coming.

Dr. David Edgington 22:00

They knew it was coming out, right? Well, I had actually addressed it ten years earlier in the abusive wife. I had actually said that this is the way that could be translated, contrary to your husband. And then the ES and then the ESV did change it, and I thought, oh, good. I I guess I was going the right way. And so initially it was, and then they changed it back, and I go, wow. The power, the the power of the of the translators is pretty strong, and it can and it can really change the way people view God's word. Now, just to clarify, I think the ESV is the best English translation we have. I I've you know I I I love the ES. I love the ESV. I love the NASB. I love the Legacy Standard Bible. I think they're excellent translations. Um the New King James is a very good one, too. Yeah. Um I prefer the ESV. It reads easier. I think it clarifies a lot of things, but it has other weaknesses in it too. There's there's no perfect translation, but um but that's a major a major failing in my mind. I go, boy, the fact that they changed that back to appeal to a more feminist view is very concerning to me. Why why would they do that? And I think I and my my opinion again is it was because of pressure that you can't say these things. This is not allowed.

Zechariah Eshack 23:28

Yeah. Well, I guess it's could be speculative. I mean, it could be they thought that that's the faithful translation, or it could be like you say, maybe they did feel pressure because maybe other translations have it that way, and maybe they kind of felt that pressure that, hey, maybe this is the more accurate reading or um translation of the text. Um, one of the things I noticed that you kind of mentioned in the book about like how Paul kind of grounds um uh like male headship in sort of this uh the creation order. So for example, 1 Timothy 2, 11

Creation Order And Church Authority

Zechariah Eshack 24:05

through 13, it says, let a let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, rather she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first and then Eve. And I did think that that's kind of interesting to um like that. I was wrapping up your book, and then there's all this kind of controversy going on with Albert Moeller and the the SBC right now, because it sounds like that I don't know a ton about the SBC, but I do know that they Albert Moeller is basically trying to solidify um like in their roles or laws that women are not allowed to preach in their denomination. So I thought that that was kind of interesting. But uh, why do you think um why do you think that Paul consistently grounds like male headship in the creation order?

Dr. David Edgington 24:52

Yeah, I I think the reason he grounds it in that is because this is not a cultural issue. It's not something that's well, according to your culture, then you determine what's the right thing to do. If you ground it in creation order, in other words, Genesis chapter three, then it's permanent, it's eternal. It never gets overturned. It never, you know, we don't get more enlightened and say, oh, now women can be educated so they can they can preach and teach just like men do. Paul says it's it's not about education, it's not about culture, it's about creation order. And um, and to undermine that is basically to undermine the authority of scripture itself. It's to say that, well, anything that we disagree with, we can say, well, that was a cultural thing. That's a very dangerous slope to go on to.

Submission Without Excusing Abuse

Zechariah Eshack 25:45

Well, and I think that the idea of that kind of naturally leads me into like the idea of submission, where I feel like it's it's perceived in such a negative light. And I I bring up about how since Christ um, you know, God the Son submits to God the Father, but we know they're co-equal, co-eternal, and all of the same essence. So I don't think it necessarily means that there's an equality of value among the, you know what I mean, among you know, God the Father and God the Son, nor um the husband and the wife, um, because we're obviously men and women are both image bearers of God. Um why do you think it is that like Adam is, even though Eve is guilty of her sin and God judges her for it, um, but it almost seems like he holds the man to a higher standard, or at least um because that happened under his authority, that he is still responsible for it. Um, can you maybe speak to that one?

Dr. David Edgington 26:45

Yeah, I think it's exactly for that reason the man is held responsible because he's the head of his home. Adam was, you are, I am, we are responsible. Now, if our wives continue in sin, even after being confronted and said, This is not right, this is disobedience to God, if they continue on unrepentant, we don't keep blaming the guy. You know, it's not the same as guilt and blame. It's not it's not that we're okay, the wife keeps sinning, and now the guy is always to blame. You know, that that wouldn't be that wouldn't be right. Because notice even in the passage you mentioned in 1 Timothy 4, uh chapter 2, verse 14, it says, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. So it's clearly saying she was in sin. So it's not that, well, she couldn't help herself because her husband didn't protect her. She has, you know, the freedom to sin just like Adam did, and she did.

Zechariah Eshack 27:55

Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 27:56

So it's ultimately it's not a lack of submission to the husband, but it's a lack of submission to God and God's order. That's that's where we keep coming back to it. It's not so much that the wife is disobeying her husband and saying, I'm gonna do whatever I want, I don't care what you think. That's not just rebellion against her family and her husband, that's ultimately rebellion against God. And that's very serious because God is the one that sets these laws and rules in in order. And they're not oppressive, they're not too hard, they're not too weighty, they're not too difficult. They may be difficult in a very feminized society because women are told you can do anything you want. You know, you go girl, you you tell people whatever you want is okay, and that makes it harder for a woman today saying, I'm not gonna put up with a man telling me what to do. I'm just as smart as he is. I've got just as more of just as much of a powerful job as he does. Why does he think he can tell me what to do? And yet that same woman she will obey her boss and her job, she'll submit to her boss, she won't argue and fight with him, she won't resist him because she'll lose her job. But then she goes home to her husband and she says, I don't have to listen to you. And I go, No, don't you see the disconnect there? Don't you see the the inconsistency and actual hypocrisy there that you'll submit to this man that you're not related to, that you're not married to, yeah, but you will not submit to this man, who's your husband? Who is your head? Who is the patriarch in your family? Don't you see the rebellion in that? And yet women have had this drilled into their heads, you can do it all, you can have it all, and it is deadly. It is damaging families, it is damaging children, and it's ripping homes apart.

Zechariah Eshack 30:07

Well, I think when they see um or think of submission, like even from a biblical perspective, I think that a lot of women, and you know, certainly not all, but like a lot of women probably are fearful that like he's gonna be authoritarian, he's gonna be domineering, he's gonna be a bully. And I think that that's like the real concern. Um, so what would you say is like how do you distinguish like authority from like more of a domination, domineering type attitude that a man can have? Like what what would what would things what are things that women could look out for if they run into that type of man?

Dr. David Edgington 30:45

Yeah, like I think uh any man has the temptation to abuse his authority. So in other words, just do what I say, no matter how ridiculous it is, and um, you know, you just have to submit to every every unreasonable request that I make. But the difficulty is that some of the wives will say, well, he's being unreasonable because he wants to buy a Chevy and I want to I want to Ford. And you go, Well, that's not an unreasonable thing. I mean, it doesn't matter what you think about which is a better car or not, this is what your husband desires, then you know, then you follow your husband. You don't fight him on that. So, but if any woman is in physical danger, she's being, you know, beaten or slapped or kicked or hit or something's going on with the husband, then of course, you know, get out of that relationship. Don't even get into one, of course, but but um, you know, we're not telling women to be doormats, we're not telling women to just roll over and just do anything any man ever says, but what we are saying is that this should be your natural way of viewing your marriage. How many times in scripture does it say the wife is to submit in everything to her husband? Ephesians 5 says that, Colossians 3 says that, Titus 2 says that, 1 Peter 3 says that. This should be her predisposition, this should be her default position that I will submit to my husband.

Zechariah Eshack 32:20

Yeah, and it was surprising when you brought up uh like I had not thought about the passage where Peter um basically praises Sarah for her obedience to Abraham, and even though Abraham wasn't always in the right, as clearly evident from some of the decisions he's made, you know, he made, um, she was still submissive to him. And it wasn't based upon um her only being submissive when she thought Abraham was in the right, but even when he was in the wrong, right.

Dr. David Edgington 32:49

Yeah, because because this this puts it in the category of being submissive to God. This is the man that you've chosen to be your husband, and you follow him, you submit to him, even if he's disobedient to the word. That's what 1 Peter 3 1 says. And you notice that he may be won over without a word when he sees your pu your respectful and pure conduct. Respectful. And that was Sarah, right? Sarah was respectful to Abraham, even when he was evidently going the wrong direction. I mean, he's trying to give his wife away to two different kings, and yet Sarah is the one person that Peter chose as an example of a submissive wife with a husband that was disobedient to God's word. I think Sarah is the feminist's nightmare. Because the feminists would not would never tolerate putting up with kind of behavior that Sarah did. They say, Oh, she was just an idiot. Why would she do that? She was a fool, she was a doormat. No, she was honored by God because notice what Elsie says if you do good and do not fear anything that's frightening. This is you know, first Peter 3, verse 6. She obeyed Abraham, again, not just submitted, but obeyed Abraham. So this is even a stronger word, calling him Lord, so there's a verbal submission to him. And you are her children, wives, if you do good and do not fear anything that's frightening. I'm sure that there are frightening situations that many women get into. It's like, oh man, my husband is making this decision. I don't think it's a good one. Well, talk to him about it. You know, have a reasonable discussion with him about it. Don't scream at him and yell at him, don't argue with him, but talk to him about it. But ultimately, don't give in to the fear. Don't let fear rule in your heart, wife. Now, again, see, you're gonna have people that say, Oh, they're just giving permission to these men to beat up women. Absolutely not. That's just foolish to think that that's that's not what Peter is thinking about. That's not what Paul is thinking about. That's not what Jesus is thinking about, that's not what anything in scripture is saying. But what happens is people try to nuance this and say, Well, submission, but and I go, Well, isn't it funny that the inspired scriptures don't have to nuance this? They make the point and say, This is what you should be doing. And and and not, well, but this, but that, but here. It's like anybody in their right mind would say, You don't just let a husband beat you up. Well, I'm submitting to him. Well, now you're disobeying God, because you know, you're you're endangering your whole family. So, but it's but it's used to deflect the attention away from the main biblical principle. The main biblical principle, and it's one of the chapters in my book, submission is not a dirty word. It's not a bad see, you and I have to submit to God, don't we? And yet sometimes God has put us through things in life that we go, Wow, really, Lord, that's what you wanted me to do? Okay. You can fight, you could fight God on that, or you can say, God, I submit to

Love That Sanctifies Not Permits

Dr. David Edgington 36:20

your will.

Zechariah Eshack 36:21

Yeah. Well, and I like how you kind of repeatedly mention about how for the men, about uh what Paul says about love your wife, you know, the way that Christ loves the church. And so I think that if men follow after that model and have that sacrificial love, then then I I believe that women, you know, women shouldn't have to fear um their husband being overly domineering, overly true tyrannical in the household if he is truly following after Christ.

Dr. David Edgington 36:50

One of the things I I kind of had thought of I'm just to clarify on that again, Zechariah, I don't want to disagree with you, but just keep remembering that the men I'm talking about, the typical man, he is loving his wife like Christ loves the church. He's not a tyrannical man, he's not an oppressive man, and these women still will not follow him. It's still not enough. Yeah, it's still, no, no, husband, you have to do what I want you to do. So we we just want to be careful with that because we've kind of been trained into thinking, well, if he's a godly man, any woman will follow him. And I go, No, it's not true. I'd like to think it's true, but it's but it's simply not. We've we we've got to be honest and and hold the wife accountable. And um and even the next verse after Ephesians 5.25, husbands love your wives as Christ loved the church, gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word. See, I think that applies to Christ with his church. I think that applies to the husband with his wife. That's his goal. That's what it means to love your spouse. That's what it means for Christ to love you and me. He's gonna continue to cleanse us by the washing of water with the word. He's not gonna just let us do whatever we want to do, he's gonna discipline us. And likewise a husband should do the same with his wife. I love you, but I'm not just gonna let you do anything you want. That's not love. That's permissiveness, that's licentiousness. In the same way it would be with our children. Do we let our children just do whatever they want because it's what they they think is best? Well, you don't love me, Dad, because you won't let me, you know, have a cell phone when I'm ten years old. Sorry, son, I don't think that's a good idea. And I say that because I love you, not because I hate you. So the same dynamic happens with the wife that, well, if you really love me, you'll let me have my way. And a godly husband is going to say, I do love you, but I cannot just let you have your way with this. It would not be right of me. I would not be honoring God, I would not be blessing you. I want you to grow. Sanctification is about growth, isn't it? And that's what that passage is talking about. Ephesians 5 26 is sanctifying her, not just letting her do what she wants. So I su sorry I interrupted you on that, but I wanted to catch you.

Zechariah Eshack 39:26

No, no, you're okay. I uh no, I appreciate it. I what

When Spouses Attend Different Churches

Zechariah Eshack 39:30

I wanted to say was that um actually I had a couple questions for you from like a practical standpoint when it comes to like real-world situations. So you have men and women that marry each other from different Christian backgrounds. And one of the things I kind of struggle with understanding or trying to find a right path for is like, for example, you know, me and my wife come from different tr uh Christian traditions. Uh, there was a gentleman I met up with a couple weeks ago, had coffee, super nice guy from church, and um his wife was um, she was, I think, Mennonite. And as a result, she doesn't really go to his church. And I was curious to get your perspective on that, like, because you have to, it feels like a balancing act, right? Because I feel like the woman should be submissive and go to the church that the husband believes is the right church. And obviously I'm biased, but I also think, too, at the same time, that there's a very real Protestant ethic of um like the liberty of conscience and that we shouldn't compel people against their conscience. Um so I I'd be curious to hear your thoughts, and then maybe we can talk about uh numbers 30. And I know that you know, if we're tight on time, let me know when you need to go.

Dr. David Edgington 40:44

But yeah, um, yeah, love to about five minutes, but thank you. Um yeah, no, I I agree with with you uh on that. That um I can understand that spouses coming from different backgrounds, different church backgrounds. I've run into that many times with people I've counseled.

Zechariah Eshack 41:06

Yeah.

Dr. David Edgington 41:06

And uh what I always encourage them is that before you get married, you should make this clear that okay, wife, you're going to follow your husband in everything. Not just the things that you want to follow him in or you think he's right in, but you should follow him in everything. That includes should we have children or not? How many children, um, where should we live, um, and what church we attend. Because you want the whole family to be together in worshiping the Lord together in unity. It's a wonderful example for the children, but it's also just preserving unity in the in the home as well. But a wife that's going to one church and a husband going to another church, there's there's a big problem there already. That's what's what's going on, what's happened? And it's it is an issue of submission that um the wife should be following her husband there. Now, if he's not going to church, for instance, the husband is saying, I'm not going to church, and I want you to go to church, that's when a wife can respectfully disagree with her husband and say, I would ask that you allow me to go to the church and take the children with me to go to church. Please don't prevent me from doing that. And that's where she should take a stand and say, I I'm not going to just disobey that way and just dishonor my Lord. But often that's a very rare case. I don't I'm not sure I've ever run into that that case. But um uh it's usually that the wife says, Well, I like my church, and the husband says, I like my church, and they never have a conversation about it before they get married. And they go, Why didn't you talk about it? I mean, you talked about your friend that was was it Mennonite or Amish?

Zechariah Eshack 43:01

You said that uh his I think he said his wife was uh Mennonite Mennonite, so they were strict, yeah, and he was a different denomination.

Dr. David Edgington 43:11

So, you know, I would I would look at that and I say, Okay, you should have talked about that ahead of time before you got married. You both knew this, but okay, let's say that you didn't. Let's say you thought, well, I didn't think it was an issue, and now I understand these things more clearly. This brings in another area that a wife should be looking to her husband to continue to grow in biblical understanding and truths. So let's say that they were both Mennonites when they got married, and okay, we're both going to go to the Mennonite church, and the husband says, You know what? I I'm not convinced that's God's God's way anymore. I think the Presbyterian or the Baptist way is right. The wife should follow him. She still should follow him because presumably he's growing in his understanding, and he's seeing that this he's seeing the scriptures more. Clearly now, a wife should be loving that and saying, I'm glad my husband is learning more. I'm glad my husband is growing more. I want that from him. I don't want him to stay the same. You know, I've been a believer for 40 three years, and I've changed some of my views in those 43 years. And you know, and hope Yeah, I've definitely changed. But my wife has followed me. You know, she says, I follow you. Now I'm a pastor too, so it's not like she's got really the option of going to another church, but the point remains that that um uh a husband should be growing in his understanding, in his biblical discernment, and saying, I believe this is God's direction for us as a family. Please follow me with that. Okay. You know, not barking orders, not saying, you know, you better do this or else, but you know, please just follow me. And and when a wife will follow her husband like that, that husband falls even more in love with his wife. He says, I have just got a wonderful, precious jewel of a wife. He doesn't look at that and say, Well, good, now I can control her in other areas. You know, a godly man is gonna look at that and say, What what a great gift. You know, that's what the proverb says, right? That's a gift, an excellent wife who can find. She's more precious than gold. That's that's the excellent wife, the one that says, I'm gonna follow my husband, I'm gonna submit to my husband, I want to honor and support my husband, I want to be I want to be right behind my husband and the and the biggest cheerleader he has. See, that cuts totally against what our culture says today. Our culture says today, woman, you don't need a man to make it in this world. You could do it on your own. So basically they're trying to turn women into men. And the one thing that these women have in common is they're very discontent, they're very unhappy, yeah, they're very miserable, and many of them never

Fear As The Engine Of Control

Dr. David Edgington 46:10

have children.

Zechariah Eshack 46:11

And they're just they're which is surprising because they get, you know, a lot of times if they do marry, then they do get their way, but at the same time, um, there was there was a really good quote and I from your book, and I think that we could probably end here, um, was you put you had mentioned that the point here is that the fear has taken hold of this woman. This stronghold in this sense of 2 Corinthians 10 4 causes the reviling wife to walk in the flesh and wage war according to the flesh. She is dis deceived, desperately trying to fight this battle in her soul with the wrong weapons. She attempts to overcome her anxieties through her own strength of will and her reasoning powers. Eventually, she resorts to control because of because her own fear is controlling her. And I thought that that was very true and very ironic to think that the idea of a reviling wife wanting to control her husband and control everything around her, and then in reality, it kind of backfires because she's the one who's truly being controlled by fear.

Dr. David Edgington 47:14

Her own feelings have become sovereign. That's all that matters in her mind. Her feelings rule in her heart, they take control, and that's all that matters to her. And the husband says, You know, I just don't agree with that. I want to hear your input, I want to hear what you have to say, but I don't believe that's the right way. And now, because the wife has that stronghold of fear and that insistence on control, now she's going to get angry because her husband won't do what she wants. And then the husband says, Well, I can't just submit to you and do whatever you want, because I think I don't think that's the right way. And then the anger increases, marriage gets fractured, and then we're right back in the white knight and reviling wife

Where To Find The Book

Dr. David Edgington 48:00

situation.

Zechariah Eshack 48:01

So yeah. Well, I really appreciate your time. I know, I know we're we're running out of time, and I want to be respectful of that. Um I de I definitely feel like we could have a ton more to talk about because I probably made it halfway through my notes. And you know, I I thoroughly love the book. You know, if if anyone's interested, I I picked it up from New Christendom Press. It's called White Knights and Reviling Wives. And um, I believe that this is your your fifth book. Yes, it is. Is that correct? Right.

Dr. David Edgington 48:30

Yeah, that book is only available on New Christendom Press.com. My other four books are all available on Amazon.com. So but thank you. Awesome. Sekariah, thank you for having me on the show. If you want to have me back and talk about other things, I'd be glad to come back.

Zechariah Eshack 48:48

Oh, I would I would love that. I greatly appreciate it. And this is a serious topic and uh one that I definitely think we should dive into more. And just um, I'm really grateful uh for just everything that you do and just you know, defending men that really need to be defended and um that have been mistreated by not only their spouses, but also unfortunately the church. So yeah, thank you again, Dr. Edgington. I'll be very welcome.

Dr. David Edgington 49:12

Thank you. God bless.