When Fear Sells Gold, Who Really Profits

Gold feels safe because it’s real, heavy, and timeless—yet that same tangibility can be a trap. We pull back the curtain on the coin-and-bar sales machine, explaining how patriotic branding, fake urgency, and government-sounding names steer savers toward high spreads and low liquidity. If you’ve wondered whether a safe full of coins beats a brokerage account, this conversation gives you the math, the mechanics, and the mindset to decide with clarity.

We break down the hidden costs of physical gold: 4–15% dealer spreads, storage headaches, theft risk, and the tough reality that numismatic value hinges on rarity and grading that most buyers can’t evaluate. Then we lay out cleaner ways to get exposure. Gold ETFs like GLD and GLDM hold allocated bars in London vaults, offer daily liquidity, and charge transparent fees; with GLD, you can even write covered calls to offset expenses and create income. We examine why some central banks are accumulating bars—not as a gold standard revival, but as a reputational and reserve-diversification play—and how that institutional bid fits into a personal portfolio.

You’ll also hear a sober look at gold miners: operating leverage, geology-driven costs, co-product exposure to copper, and why equities with durable pricing power often outpace inflation more reliably than commodities over long horizons. Our stance is pragmatic, not doctrinaire. Gold can earn a seat at the table—typically 5–10%—but coins in a drawer are rarely the optimal route. If your goal is resilience, choose instruments that are liquid, low cost, and easy to transfer when it matters.

If this helped you see past the hype and sharpen your playbook for owning gold, tap follow, share the episode with a friend who’s eyeing coins, and leave a quick review so more investors can cut through the noise with us.

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Disclaimer - These podcasts are not intended as investment advice. Individuals please consult your own investment, tax and legal advisors. They provide these insights for educational purposes only.

Transcript

Setting The Gold Debate

Clem Miller 0:26

Hello, everybody, and welcome to Skeptic's Guide to Investing. I'm Clem Miller. I'm here with Steve Davenport. And today we're going to talk about gold coins and whether you should be investing in them. And bars. And bars. And bars. In other words, the physical gold as opposed to paper gold in the form of ETFs. So, you know, we see a lot of , especially on certain media, you see advertisements for gold coins, gold bars. And I'm sure those advertisements mean that some people are buying them, I would imagine. Uh so you know, we thought that this might be a good opportunity to share some of our views about about this subject of gold coins and gold bars and whether folks should be buying them or not buying them or skeptical. Um of course our broadcast here, our podcast is about being skeptical. So I think you can see that we come at this from a somewhat skeptical point of view. But Steve, what is your what is your take on gold coins and gold bars?

Physical Gold’s Security Risks

Central Banks And Reputation

Steve Davenport 1:50

Well, Clem, I was sitting there recently watching the daily market show, and it's it was just shocking to me that we had a company advertising that was , you know, the name of which I don't want to say, but it it it was the name basically was created and says it's not any part of the government, but it sounds like it's part of the government. And it says that these coins and these things are, you know, have a short lifespan and they're only a couple left, and they need to you need to invest now. And and I just thought, here's an investment show that wants to gain credibility and be a resource for people, and their advertisements. I mean, George Foreman's not around anymore, so we're not doing George Foreman grills, but we're doing, you know, investing in these coins and other things. And and I sit there and I go, are these really investments or are these just things to make people feel good? Are these just things that are gonna, you know, you're gonna put into your safe or you're gonna put under, you know, under your bed, or you're gonna dig a hole in the yard and and put it away safely. And in reality, it's one of the most unsafe assets you can hold because guess what? Anything that's made out of gold can be changed in form. So you can steal a person's gold coins, melt them down, and turn them into bars, and all of a sudden it's got a different form. So you're not, you know, it's used to be before crypto that when you looked at underworld activity or you looked at terrorist activity, they all used gold instead of currency as a as a way to conduct business. And so it's it's weight and density and wealth per per ounce is one of the highest. Um, and so therefore, it was a way of people to move across borders without you know generating a lot of you know controversy. And so instead of someone, you know, so you you worry about metal detectors, but you know, if you're if you're going across a border in a car, you know, there it was very hard for anybody to say, hey, this person's moving, you know, millions of dollars of gold. Um, and and so when it starts out as its purpose is is for the conducting of illicit businesses, I kind of sit there and say, is this an investment for the average person? And then I looked at the history of gold and saw, you know, during World War II when people were being, you know, the Jewish people were being persecuted in Germany, they they they sold their belongings and they put it into gold and they took their their clothes on their back and the gold in their pocket and they left and tried to start new lives. I I think there is a personal use, as one of our former colleagues used to say, for gold. It helps people feel comfortable that if the world starts to go crazy and all you know, all assets that are on the common systems start to be worthless for some period of time because there is chaos in markets or there is a nuclear event, you know, it would be nice to have some asset that you know that people could transact in and and have confidence that somebody is going to recognize the value. Um, but is that the way we should live our lives in worry of some you know Armageddon event? Should we all be preparing for, on the one hand, Armageddon, and the other, you know, AI takes over the world and we all become, you know, kind of have our fiefdoms and we have a a series of robots take care of everything we need. I I mean I think there are different views of what the future holds, and I don't like the whole future of why you would want to own gold. It's a you know, it doesn't produce income, it's a you know, it's an asset that that has value, you know, for purposes of, you know, it's a great conductor, it's it's good usage in ships, it's good usage in in various systems, , but it's really used when I think about its main demand, it comes from sovereign wealth funds and and and central bankers. And so my question to you, Clem, is if it's such a speculative asset and people don't know where it's going, why are these central banks that have PhDs and all sorts of institutional knowledge, why are the people in Germany, Poland, China, and around the world buying more gold? It feels like shouldn't they be smart enough to know that there's no income? I mean, wouldn't they wouldn't be they be better in buying something, you know, not physical gold and and paper gold instead? Like, why is it that we have this culture that says on the one hand, hey, it's not a real investment asset, but you know, these people at central banks, do they, you know, do they have high school diplomas and not PhDs? Tell me why. It's , you know, it it is, you know, as you mentioned, it's a it's it's a bit of a speculative investment, but I guess I don't understand if it is such speculation, why would the central banks all over the world be speculating? Shouldn't they be focused on their own country's balance sheets?

Clem Miller 8:01

So you have a lot in that question, Steve. Um let me deal with the easier part first, which is that in certain cultural environments, , and I'm thinking now about the Indian subcontinent and the Middle East, , gold jewelry is a significant part of one's personal personal wear as well as being kind of an in kind of an investment asset. So it's sort of two it's sort of two functions. One, you know, one is you know an accoutrement for you know for one's personal wear, and then the other is is it's sort of as an investment asset, sort of going to your point about being able to cross borders. You know, if you can take the jewelry with you then you know during a crisis, then that's that's a good thing. So that that's one point I would make. Uh the second point Are you gonna talk about dowries and and and how much gold you provide when you when you marry my daughter? The second thing, Steve, you mentioned central banks, right? So central banks are buying gold bars. They're not the kind of gold bars that you would buy at Costco.

unknown 9:24

Okay.

Clem Miller 9:25

Um they're buying standardized, , high-purity gold bars of the kinds that you would find in the vaults at the New York Fed or in London, at the Bank of England, or in other places. And the reason why certain countries are loading up on gold bars is because they perceive that having a lot of gold bars is a way, is a pathway potentially to having their currencies become more globally recognized. So I'm not talking necessarily about a gold standard, but kind of a , you know, sort of a reputational issue. So that, you know, if China has oodles of gold bars, then perhaps there would be greater recognition of their currency, you know, as a transactional currency internationally. Now, you know, there are a lot of arg ents, counterarg ents, , as to why that is not the case. And I don't necessarily want to go off track to talk about those counterarg ents, but suffice it to say that there's a belief out there among central banks that if you buy and store enough gold, then it could help boost your currencies. And that's that is, I think, part of the investment case, right, for having a position in gold, the fact that there is this emphasis, this trend towards central banks buying gold. That's part of the investment case for gold.

Steve Davenport 11:33

Um But doesn't it it make less sense as the price goes from 2500 to 5,000, you would expect there to be much more investment by central banks at 2400 and 2500 and 3,000 than at 5,500. I mean, I guess I'm wondering why it becomes more inelastic.

Speculation Spike And Pullback

Clem Miller 11:57

Right. I don't know that I don't think we have the data yet to suggest that their purchases have diminished as a result of the higher prices. Uh but you know, at the certainly at the somewhat lower prices, they've been they've been buying a lot of gold. Um, but you know, the thing is, let me just I mean take this opportunity to just say that you know, there is an investment case for gold. I believe that, , given the fact that the central banks are buying gold. Um, but what happened in December and January is that there was immense speculation by you know by individuals in gold, and that's what collapsed a few weeks ago. So Was it China? China that pulled the rug out? Yeah, dude.

Steve Davenport 12:53

I mean, I thought that a lot of the speculation was coming from China.

Clem Miller 12:56

Well, part of it was part of it was also that margin requirements went up for gold, right? Uh, and another part of it was , and we'll be talking about Kevin Walsh in a moment, but I think this perception that Kevin Walsh wouldn't be such a bad Fed chairman, , I think also , you know, undercut a stability arg ent for gold. And so gold prices as a result went down. So, you know, I had a significant position in a gold ETF. Again, not gold coins, not gold bars, but a gold ETF. And I was able to sell out of that , you know, the morning that things started going down. I lost only about a week, a week's worth of gold appreciation. So I was , you know, I was pretty happy that I was able to ride it up. And then, you know, I knew that prices were getting out of hand. And when they when they started going down, that's when I that's when I sold off. So I guess you could say, Steve, that you know, there is an investment case for gold, but the speculators took over, you know, starting around, I don't know, December, maybe November, December, January. And then there was this, there were these precipitating events that caused gold prices, as well as silver prices, by the way, , to to collapse. So we'll see if it comes back.

ETFs vs Coins: Costs And Liquidity

Steve Davenport 14:29

I mean, I just looked at these these people on these T shows and said, why are this there must be just a lot of money here? And then I started to ask, you know, AI, well, what is the spread? What is the you know, what is the premi or discount? And they were saying n bers like four to fifteen percent. And I looked at that and said, there's no transaction cost in buying and selling stocks. The commissions have gone to zero. Yeah, the commissions or the you know, the the the fees in buying and selling gold are four to fifteen percent. It's crazy. And so then I looked at it and said, wait a minute, if the price has gone from 2500 to 5,000, then then really they're you know, we're a hundred percent higher. Should should the commissions and the because there's more vol e, make that the commissions are going down or going to zero?

Clem Miller 15:27

These gold dealers, the ones you mentioned are advertising on TV, are making a ton of money, right? They sell gold to you, or they buy gold from you at a discount, and they sell gold to you at a at a premi . Right. They're the ones who are making money, you're not making money.

Premiums, Spreads, And Dealer Profits

Steve Davenport 15:45

Uh I think that yeah, I think that that's our our primary lesson today, I think, is that there are good ways to own gold and there are bad ways to own gold. Yeah, and I just want to try to highlight some of the risks. And , if you look at gold and you hold it physically in your home, there's a risk that somebody just comes to your home and takes it from you. Yeah, and when they take it from you, there's not a hell of a lot you can do. 90% of crimes in gold are never solved, meaning the person takes it, changes its form by melting it down, or does something different to it so that there's no traceable element for you to go after. The person's already changed its form. The gold that he says, that's that's you know, some old gold that I melted down. How do you know it was your gold that you know you your grandmother's rent? It's it's a very, very difficult for you to protect your own gold. So then you say, Well, I'm gonna put it in a safe deposit box. Well, okay, if you have $500,000 and you put, you know, $25,000, $50,000, $100,000, and you your safe deposit box is gonna fill up pretty quickly. And then if there is an event where financial systems are in are in question, guess what? The bank's probably not opening because there's a it could be a run on the bank. So your safety in a safe deposit box was a little bit overrated. And then I hear people say, Well, I've got a safe in my house, and the safe is, you know, and I'm like, Well, is there a safe that hasn't been cracked, or a safe that hasn't been drilled through, or a safe that, you know, safes are safes, but the depending on the amount of money in it, and again, the physical component to it. If you have a hundred thousand dollars or two hundred thousand dollars or a million dollars in goal, you you suddenly have a problem of needing a safe the size of , you know, the whole block you live on. And then there's this idea which you know many people in the country look at and say, hey, I can just dig a hole in the backyard and put it down there, and it's not gonna deteriorate, and it'll be safe because nobody knows where the hole is. Well, yeah, there's metal detectors and there's other things that people are, you know, everything that you think of as a solution to why gold works, there's a criminal answer that says that probably they're not gonna work perfectly. And so I think that what we're seeing gold is an asset, it could be viewed as having a long-term demand because of countries depreciating their currency. And therefore, if you look at inflation, it tends to have a pretty good relationship, not perfect, not like any any relationship we see. You know, when stocks go down, do all the stocks' correlations hold up? No, there are certain situations where gold has shown in various market uncertainty, they are a good asset. And therefore, some people believe if if I want to have a store of value in bonds and cash, which are you know paper-based, I should also have one in gold. And I guess I would say that there's, you know, just like everything, there's a size and a way to hold it. And I guess I'd say the size I would put somewhere between five and ten percent. I know you had a lot more, and I'd say that a lot more. You had a lot more, the past tense. And I guess I would say that owning it through, you know, an ETF like GLD or GLDM, you know, GLD, , for people that don't know, is an ETF which is backed by physical gold in London vaults. London is the most liquid part of the world for gold. So therefore, this ETF located London vault, and it holds physical gold in London, and it costs about 40 basis points. There's a second, those ETFs also have options against them. So if you say it doesn't produce income, you know, I can tell you that yes, you can produce income from gold by writing call options against it, and in that way you offset the fee and you possibly you know create a nice income stream. The other way is to own GLDM, which is a 10 basis point expense fee annually, and that is doesn't have any options against it. So it's very hard to create income. But at one-fourth the price for a long-term holder, I think it's a probably a good place. What do you think about these ads, Clint?

Storage Illusions And Theft Risk

Clem Miller 20:56

Well, I think so on the ads themselves about coins and and and bars, small bars, , I think, first of all, that , you know, in addition to what you mentioned before about misleading people, , you okay, Steve? Yeah, about misleading people, , that they are somehow affiliated with the U.S. government, I think they're kind of an appeal to patriotism, , you know, sort of a misleading appeal to patriotism. So , you know, when you consider that some of the channels these are on are sort of have a political slant to them, , I think that you know they're trying to sell these coins through this appeal to patriotism. I think one of the things that we really that we haven't mentioned yet that I think we need to be communicating to our listeners is that the value of gold, the value of a gold coin, I should say, is not just the gold price, but it also reflects the rarity of the individual coins and the quality of those coins. So, you know, that impacts the the discount and the premi that you were mentioning, right? If it's if it if it's a lower quality or more common gold coin, then you're going to see you're gonna see that you're not gonna be able to get that much of a good price when you sell it. Um But you know, there's a big spread between buys and sells, and you're losing a lot of money. by making a transaction or turning it over very quickly with a with a coin dealer. So the coin dealer is basically making a ton more money off of you than say a you know than say blackrock or you know SSGA you know when they when they sell their ETF so the coin dealers are making a ton of money and you have to ask yourself you know in terms of the rarity of these coins and the quality of these coins is are you an expert? You know they there are these coin books that come out that say what the value of the coins are based on quality and rarity and other things. You know, are you going to become an expert on that? I mean it's sort of like bought a blue book for cars. Do you feel qualified to be an expert on that or do you want to pretend to be an expert on the rarity and quality of of of gold coins I wouldn't want to do that. I don't feel competent enough to be able to negotiate with a coin dealer who has you know decades of expertise in and doing this and insists on a you know on making money off the bot off the purchase and sell of these these coins so I just you know I think it's you know if you're looking at at gold coins if you want to look at gold coins as anything other than you know pretty things to look at I think it's more of a hobby than it is an investment. Good very good point. It's more of a hobby it's not an investment right gold if you want to invest in gold then take the route of you know take the route I'm talking about individuals here if you want to invest in gold as an individual take the route of the of the ETFs which are highly liquid and cheap and leave the purchase of of the bars to the central banks as you know who are buying bars that you basically you cannot buy as an individual super high quality bars that are in a standard format you can't buy those those are you know those are stashed away and technically technically you can but it's very difficult and so I looked into whether if people had physical gold could they transmit their physical gold into the ETF and and convert and there is a way to you to work with certain banks that you could you know in an if you have institutional size do that but it's very very complicated and very difficult.

Allocation Size And Income Options

Steve Davenport 25:40

The one thing I'm going back to that's not something you or I could do right no it's not something that I don't have enough enough assets even if I put all my assets in gold to create you know a couple of bars so I I know where I stand in terms of whether I'm gonna own bars or not but the other part of this claim that I think we might have forgotten is what about the gold producers? What about the miners and the people who are making money as the price of gold goes up doesn't that mine that was producing you know 6,000 ounces doesn't that mine now have a much higher profit margin if they can you know sell it at 5500 versus 2500? I mean shouldn't the shouldn't that profit go to the shareholders? I mean is is are are we missing one of the pieces of this process you like companies with earnings and you know physical assets and you know but I've personally never found people very successful at making money from owning the miners and but maybe I just didn't have the right time Marian what do you think about the miners?

Patriot Pitch And Numismatics

Clem Miller 26:55

Well first of all investing in a miner exposes you to the ups and downs of the gold price just like investing in gold does so that's you know we're not talking about secular sustainable growth over time the kind of thing that I like to see in in companies right in companies it's sustained earnings growth that drives the share price for you know for the most part so you don't have that with gold companies gold companies are based the revenues are based on their production and what the gold price is fluctuating at but there's another element to to any kind of miner actually and that is cost right mining costs are a function of of how easy it is to my to actually mine the gold that you're mining and or anything right whatever you're mining right so you you might have higher cost higher cost mines higher cost you know it may might cost more to dig gold up in certain places as opposed to in other places you know a good analogy would be oil you know if you drill in Saudi Arabia it's cheap to get the oil out of the ground if you drill up in the Arctic it's more expensive to take oil out of the ground and so the profit margins are less drilling in the Arctic. Well the same thing applies to gold and then there's the this additional complexity Steve of of of gold mining which is that gold is usually co-mingled with copper and so these mining companies are not going to I mean if the copper price is down they're gonna make less money regardless of whatever gold they're taking out of the ground is so you can't really look at these as as pure it's a proxy but it's not a perfect proxy right I mean one thing that I I think about when I think about gold miners is it it is the environmental impact and and like you say I I disagree with you a little bit in that if you feel like currencies are going to continue to be diminished by you know excess printing of the the various governments who keep you know let's just say there's one here in the US that just keeps printing and we keep running deficits and we just keep printing.

Steve Davenport 29:30

And if you believe printing and and inflation is going to be not just a temporal you know six months to a year thing but a 20 to 30 year thing then the the horizon for gold gets longer and you start to realize that gee maybe there is a secular you know maybe there is a case here that that the impact of that printing is going to last for a while and therefore we need something as an inflation hedge to to offset it.

Clem Miller 30:02

So so Steve there's a there I think you know in our world okay of investing and asset allocation there's often a thought that so-called real assets include basically three categories right commodities real estate and tips right and you put them together in some combination and and maybe you get short term medi term and long term inflation protection I look at that and sort of call you know BS on that Steve right and and well I don't remember that though we always felt that way and yeah and and the reason I call BS on that is because if you look over time it's really stocks that are the basic inflation hedge. Now you have to you know you have to pick your stocks you know cyclical stocks are not necessarily as good an inflation hedge as you know these secular growth stocks you know that are driven by margins and expanding margins and so on. These those those companies generate may generate you know earnings growth of 15 20 25 percent a year that's way in excess of whatever you can get out of gold. So I don't I don't buy the arg ent that gold is one of the best hedges against inflation I think I think stocks are one of the best hedges against inflation okay but you're you're taking a different amount of risk would you agree?

Steve Davenport 31:46

So well no not necessarily gold prices the demand for certain commodities like oil is pretty well studied and pretty well understood.

Miners, Costs, And Copper Exposure

Clem Miller 31:57

Yeah but gold is not gold has a lot of volatility to it no but you use the category of inflation has bonds and and and commodities so I'm just oil oil oil prices are subject to political manipulation and and stock prices are subject to management manipulation based on how many okay but but there when it comes to stock prices you've got thousands tens of thousands of market actors out there when you're talking about oil prices you're talking about five or six seven major country government players who are acting to manipulate the supply of oil there are many more demand actors of course but on the supply side you know you you take Saudi Arabia and the UAE and and and Iran and Venezuela and they're all part of OPEC so there's just one operator right well but there's a lot of differences of opinion within OPEC so Russia is part of that mix too so but you know they whatever they decide as a group or whatever they're unable to decide as a group because that's a part of it too determines you know against a a kind of a fixed demand background you know fixed meaning that you know demand rises at a certain rate you know demand for oil is is growing you know does grow at a more steady rate right so I think that may be what you're referring to but the supply of oil the supply of oil oil and the supply of and the price at which it's sold is variable depending on political manipulation.

Inflation Hedges: Gold Or Stocks

Steve Davenport 33:50

So that's why I am a little skeptical one of the reasons why I'm skeptical about energy companies about oil and gas I mean I think we're we're we're drifting from our main topic which is ads for global and for gold on financial media I think we can both say it's BS right it it's not something that we think is good for the average investor. It's not something that we think is the way if you want to acquire an asset there are more efficient ways to acquire that asset. And those that and the way that you can transfer and the safety that you have in shares versus physical gold introduces a lot of risks and safety risks that I think you probably don't want to introduce to your life. I think as you've mentioned it's very hard to get these right and they are you know should they all be part of what you do we're you know I think that we can go from the simple simplest idea possible which is Buffett's I own an index of the the the companies in the United States and I own a bond you know at an 80% 20% and that's how that's how you should manage your wealth and then we go down and we get finer and finer into the equities finer and finer into the bonds and then we have this space in between that you mentioned is real assets. Well yeah there's real assets there's preferred there's convertibles there's a whole range of things in the middle but what we're we're really saying is is it all of this gold and silver demand and and and hoopla is it all worthwhile is it all is it is it something you should be calling your local n istics company and you know cat getting a couple of Liberty dollars or a couple of crew ads i i think the answer is probably no because the the the premi or discount prices and the and the storage issues make it a little bit difficult to hold is there anything else you think we've missed on this topic one i think we've I think we've covered all of it really well I think yeah I think that the one comment I would make is China is forever trying to make the Wandram Nibby a a currency that will dominate international transactions and part of the reason it isn't is that it it's believed you know it isn't a full isn't fully free floating so people believe that a currency that's not free floating is managed or manipulated by the government. So they they have that issue but they also have an issue of what's backing it. And one of the unusual things about gold is there doesn't seem to be any gold mining or much gold mining that is in China. They just don't have the you know the the land or the crust that contains a lot of gold. So they need to be a buyer and so one of the largest buyers of gold is China. Why does China do this? Well its currency you know as its economy grows every year at I don't know whether it's three or whether it's at seven percent is okay as the economy grows for me to back my currency by gold I need to get three to seven percent more and so they just can't keep up and so their positioning in gold is somewhere between one and two and the United States position is somewhere around seven and so when you look at gold and you realize China's gonna want to get to seven but it's almost mathematically impossible unless all of the gold was taken from a lot of these central banks for that to happen. And you know someone once said you know all of the gold in the world would fill one very large swimming pool. And so when you look at its limited supply and the n ber of holders and the reasons why they're holding it these central banks are probably not going to be sellers. They probably realize that hey the currencies and the paper currencies inflation is bigger we need to have more stability. So I just leave at it is an asset that has some value. It is worth considering and I think it's more of you know is it for my personal holding just so that I have some on hand if I needed it I have four or five ounces and I could put them in my pocket and go somewhere and you know leave what I have I don't think that's a reason to buy because I think it's too un unfathomable. And so therefore I would say you want to hold some hold some as a collectible it is taxed as a collectible at 28% so when you look at it and say it's an investment asset, well why doesn't the IRS know that why don't we get investment tax you know and so the fact that it is taxed as a collectible should be assigned to you that maybe you know you you gotta do something different with it. So Steve I would just add one last thing and then we'll and then we'll take off here from this topic and that is whatever gold whatever issues there are with gold it's still a lot better asset to buy and sell than Bitcoin Bitcoin has tried to be the new gold and I think it might be for certain you know crime families and and and and terrorist groups it's untraceable and and that makes it very favorable to groups who don't want to be traced I'm not sure having an untraceable asset is something that I really need I kind of want my something happens to me I would like somebody to be able to trace all the assets to my name and social security n ber and have them available for my wife and kids. Yeah I'm not sure untraceability is is one of the things we're looking for. As investors we want to have assets we want to not speculate we want to have reasons why we think those assets should retain their value and grow. And we want to have some things that you know are easily transferable. If I wanted to transfer a certain n ber of shares to all of my kids I could do that in one day in a transaction I don't have to go dig a hole in the backyard and and take the bars out and show my neighbors you know or put a little tent over myself as I as I dig it up I I think that's not really what I look at as assets. Those are there's a certain liability there. So I hope you like this topic I hope you like what we're doing as listeners we're here to serve you and try to help you with your investing IQ and please reach out tell us what topics you like our next podcast is going to be about which Walsh and we want to talk about which Walsh has been promoted to be the head of the Fed and we don't know exactly where this is going to come out we're a little skeptical but we hope you listen and we hope you enjoy what we do. Thanks and have a great day