The Last Amateur And The Investing Lessons In Golf

Most people think greatness is about raw talent. Then you meet someone who wins because they never waste a shot, never waste a moment, and never pretend the work is optional. That’s what I remember from caddying for Jay Siegel at The Country Club in Brookline, and it’s why this conversation stuck with me for decades.

I’m joined by author John Riley to talk about his biography The Last Amateur and the life of one of the most dominant career amateurs the game has ever seen. We dig into the hand injury that reshaped Jay’s future, the quiet intensity that rattled opponents, and the way he built a repeatable process that held up in match play, in major championships, and later on the Senior Tour. Along the way, we connect the dots to an investing mindset: discipline over drama, conservative strategy until the moment demands aggression, and the power of staying in the arena long enough for your best run to show up.

We also talk about mentorship, family support, and integrity as competitive advantages, not nice extras. Jay’s standards, his calm under pressure, and his long record of giving back remind us that legacy is built in small choices repeated for years.

If you care about golf history, mental toughness, performance psychology, or practical lessons for long-term investing, hit play. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves the game, and leave a review with the biggest lesson you’re taking from Jay’s story.

For access to The Last Amateur:

https://store.faithandfamilypublications.com/products/the-last-amateur-hardcover?_pos=1&_psq=the+last+am&_ss=e&_v=1.0

Straight Talk for All - Nonsense for None

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Disclaimer - These podcasts are not intended as investment advice. Individuals please consult your own investment, tax and legal advisors. They provide these insights for educational purposes only.

Transcript

Welcome And A Caddy’s Start

Steve Davenport 0:27

Hello everyone and welcome to a special edition of Skeptic's Guide to Investing. I don't know if many listeners know, but um the way I started out my career was as a caddy. I used to caddy at the country club in Brookline. The country club in Brookline has a long history of USGA titles. And I, you know, used to live down the street. I lived a little further than Francis We met did to the from the country club, but I was about a mile away, and sometimes we walked and sometimes we got a ride from my parents, but they were very happy to drop us off there, have us caddy, get exhausted, come home, and then they didn't have to worry about us going anywhere or doing anything because we were too tired. Um, but I was fortunate one year, as um everybody who's a caddy knows, is you sometimes get a loop that is just unbelievably memorable. And it happened to me in 1982 when I was 19 years old. And um I caddied for a guy named Jay Sigel. Jay was a golfer out of Pennsylvania, he won every amateur event you could ever imagine. But at this point in his career, he had won the British amateur and he hadn't won the U.S. amateur, and that was his desire. He really wanted to win the U.S. amateur. And so, as part of my experience with Jay, I got to know him later in life when we we became involved in his cancer tournament, and I had cancer. Um, but the reason I'm here today is that John Riley just finished a biography with Jay about his life in amateur golf, and it's called The Last Amateur. And did you show the book, John? And the book is um a great compilation of his life and everything. And the way I'm gonna figure this out in terms of how it has to do with um skeptics and investing is that I think the things I learned as a caddy and the things I learned from Jay and how he lived his life helped me as an investor and helped me in how I looked at life, the role of the green, how things happen sometimes that you don't understand, and how just being determined and paying attention and and keep working can lead to great things. So I'm very excited today to have John Riley with me. And John, I've enjoyed just going down memory lane. Um, you know, 1982, 4 years ago, this coming August, um, a lot of life has come between then and now. And I honestly think that growing up Caddy made me a lot of who I am today, because one thing it does is it teaches you hard work, it teaches you to show up on time and be ready, and it teaches you also how to communicate with people and how to work with different personalities. And I think all of those things have been parts that I've taken from um my life as a caddy or my life, you know, in general, and I don't know where we could start with Jay, but you know, Jay was just an amazing person, irregardless of all of his accolades as a golfer and um you know what he did on the senior tour. How did you how would you leak about Jay's life and Jay as an amateur in Pennsylvania? I mean, is there anybody else that you think of that would, you know, you put him in the leagues with in terms of the all-time greats?

John Riley 4:22

Well, it it's interesting, Steve. By the way, the um the book is a better book because Jay scribbled several names on a piece of paper that he sent to me of people that I should talk to. And one of those names was Steve Davenport. And , you know, our our conversation and your the piece that you ended up putting in the book about that round, your your whole time together at the U.S. Amateur in 1982. Um really a great part of the book, and I just enjoyed you know being able to help Jay and help you tell that story. So it's it's it's the heart and soul of the book, chapter 16. And ironically, it was the last chapter I sent to Jay when when he passed away.

Steve Davenport 5:14

So yeah, I mean I I'm you know Jay has meant a lot to me and what he's done for cancer for 33 years holding this tournament, um, giving back over half a million dollars to the Abramson Cancer Center at the University of Penn Medicine. Uh I you know came to talk to Jay about um life. Um we used to exchange Christmas cards every year when my kids were growing up and his kids were growing. And I don't know. I um I cherished the time I had with him. And the thing that, you know, I I still tell this the story of the you know, the the last thing we did um is at the trophy comp the presentation, he's invited me up and had me hold the trophy while we took a picture. And that's still the picture I have on my desk. And I look at that picture and I think it's great to be a part of something, but when you have somebody who's your, you know, your caddy and a golfer only have a few moments together. And when they're together, they're the only people the golfer can use to try to help them in their match or try to get around the course. And so you feel a closeness to a golfer that is very unusual. And I think that for people out there who are caddies or people out there who have have partners that you work on something with, there's something symbiotic that happens where you just start to feel each other's momentum, you feel each other's energy. And I knew I was a part of something special the first time I picked up his back because discipline, grit, determination, you know, looking at each shot as if it was his last and saying, Hey, I'm gonna look at the wind, I'm gonna look at the lie, I'm gonna look at the position on the ball, I'm gonna look at the position of the pin on the green, and we're gonna craft the best shot we can at that moment. And I had never seen anybody with that kind of precision around the golf course. And I just thought this guy has, you know, something special about him. And then when I heard his story about injuring his hand and not feeling like he could turn pro, and I saw the scar on his wrist, and I saw him addressing the ball and the way he held it and the way he stopped at the top and had that control with those size 16s or whatever they were, and his big hands. You know, he was a 6'1 guy, but he was a burly 210. I was a 6'5 guy with a burly 180. And you wouldn't have guessed that we would be the team that would come away at that tournament. I had had spinal surgery two years before, and you know, he was still working on his hand and trying to make it better for competition. And I I feel a little bit like we both had something to prove. And that to me is kind of interesting because he had done so much in golf even before 82 to be considered, you know, 13-time Pennsylvania amateur champion. I mean, have you seen like players come along and you say, gee, there's something different about this person? And I think that part of it is when you get an obstacle in your path, some people stop. Some people figure out how to go over, some people figure out how to go around. But Jay faced obstacles, and I think that the way he reacted it ultimately made him a much tougher golfer, especially match play. Do you think that was his key, or how would you look at his career and things and say, you know what made Jeff Jay different was this? I mean, do you have anything that comes to mind?

The Injury That Changed Everything

John Riley 9:42

Steve, I um my I try to capture this a little bit at the end of the book. Um you know what what made this guy tick? Um I mean, he, as Peter Jacobson said to me during our interview, he said, I met Jay when he was winning amateur tournaments at a dizzyan pace. Uh and it was true. I mean, he he had an incredible record in terms of the number of times he teed it up and won. I mean, he would only play, you know, maybe 12 tournaments a year, 10 tournaments a year, and you you could count on the fact that he was going to finish the year with three, four wins, many of these significant. Um, not that the Pennsylvania tournaments weren't significant, they were against against some just great competition. It was he had, yes, he had physical assets. People would look at Jay, and funny story was Peter Alice at the Walker Cup in England when he walked along with him and made a comment that he had never seen anybody with hands and feet single size for a man his size, and then and then he commented and said, but I don't know about the rest of his accoutrements. So like as Peter Alice, you know. Um but I , you know, you mentioned the injury in college, and that was you know, that was his moment. I mean, that in so many ways defined him and what his life was about because he certainly was a prodigy. Probably the next Palmer or Nicholas, I mean, the first to receive an Arnold Palmer scholarship at Wake Forest, , winning the International JC Championship by 11 strokes over Marty Fleckman. Um just extraordinary what he was doing then. He was winning everything and had the highest of expectations, went to the University of Houston, the number one golf program in the country, um, you know, top of top of the recruits, and it it was all good. But he transferred to Wake Forest, and that's where he had , you know, what could have been a completely devastating injury. Uh certainly for much.

Steve Davenport 12:22

He was the number one ranked amateur in the world at that time, right? I mean, wasn't that right around that that age, around 19 or 20?

John Riley 12:30

Uh well, actually, I'm not sure he he wasn't number one ranked at that time. He would ultimately become number one ranked. Actually, I think the first time he became number one ranked was was after the 82 season, when he won the US amateur. Uh the first time he was ranked, you know, in the Golf Digest rankings was 1975, after he won the ranked in the top 10, that is, um, because that's all they basically carried in the in their magazine every yeah. Uh af so that was his first Porter Cup win. And soon after that he played in his first Walker Cup. That was a Walker Cup team that he played on with both John Foat, who he lost to at Ironamick in the U.S. Amateur, and with Fred Ridley, um the Augusta chairman. So um the inju in you know, the injury was certainly devastating. Um it was months and months before. I mean, the main the main part of the injury, in addition to being a three-hour surgery, the potential loss of strength and muscle and all of that in his hand, it severed most of his ulnar nerve, , which cost him the feeling in those last couple fingers on his left hand. And as we know, I mean the left hand on the golf club is so critical. Uh, like kind of playing without that and the strength of that hand is something, and playing in pain all the time, he really came to that conclusion that you know, I could never endure, you know, the the week in and week out all year long and pounding golf balls all day with this kind of injury. So he kind of reset it as his priorities, , you know, developed a career obviously in business and went on to an amateur career. But it towards the end of the book, um my my best take on it was that that injury in the end kind of defined him. That injury and overcoming that adversity, I think strengthened his spirit and his mental toughness in such a way that I think Jim Holtgreave, the couple-time Walker Cup captain and the first Midam champion, he actually said to me, he said, you know, I can thank Jay for winning the U.S. Midam Championship. And I said, Why do you say that? He said, Because if I had to play him, I would have never beat him. He said, he was always the favorite. Um, you know, he he he he had a way of intimidating people. He had that sort of austere, serene kind of approach, and and people were intimidated. Uh Buddy Marucci, the great amateur who played so much golf with Jay, in fact he's quoted on the back of the book as saying um that people would say Jay was intimidating the same way they would say Tiger was intimidating. Well, Buddy, of course, is the guy that carried Tiger all the way to the very last hole in the U.S. amateur.

Steve Davenport 15:49

Yeah.

John Riley 15:50

Um he said, but I never saw it that way with Tiger or Jay. They were just better than us, was the way he put it. You know, so he really was. He had extraordinary ability, had power. I mean, his first year, second full year on the senior tour, um he he finished first in long drive statistics. He he surpassed Jim Dent by like four yards. Uh I mean, and everybody knows back in those days, I mean, Jim Dent was famous for how far he could hit a golf ball. And here's this guy with the bad hand. And and his his his caddy, Kirk Rothrock, I mean, he said to me, he said, we I tried to talk Jay out of finishing a tournament one time on the West Coast. He said he could not even feel his left hand. He said, now this is, you know, it was cold and it was rainy. He said, and this is, you know, what, how many years later? 30 plus years later, and he can't feel his left hand.

Steve Davenport 16:51

Yeah.

Intimidation, Focus, And Consistency

John Riley 16:52

Uh, you know, so I think I think that that had a lot to do with that incredible intestinal fortitude that he had, , that he almost mentally dominated people, and he was so deep in concentration as to what he had to do on the golf course, where he had to hit every shot, , for the proper position. Very conservative player, except for when he had to put his foot on the gas. You know, he was just gonna, as some people would say, he would just beat you to death with consistency. And that that was, you know, obviously a great, great strength of his, but when he had to turn it on, when he was down, when he was an extra hold, he could turn it on and he could go for pins all day long, as well as anybody that ever played. I mean, interesting story. You talk about the , you know, his desire to win the U.S. amateur and how he he was right in the moment all the time, so focused on the shot, what he had to do to execute. He he told me early on, and it's it's kind of an undercurrent of the theme early in the book, that he lost two Philadelphia junior championships at match play. He couldn't seem to get over the hump past the second or third round on the U.S. amateur. He he he struggled with match play. It was a it was a it was really kind of like a mental block to him. And he was quoted in the papers all the time, and he was still saying it to me when we were going through the interviews for the book. He'd say, , I just thought it was , you know, it brought luck into the picture. And I really felt that , you know, in some respects, and he was quoted another time saying these exact words, match play is too much like Russian roulette. So what he did was he got a tip from one of the great matchplay players in England that Peter McAvoy , and he ends up beating, or actually, I think they tied in a Walker Cup match um at Mirfield. And McAvoy said to him at one point, Jay, I hear you don't like match play. Why don't you like match play? And he said, So this is before um this is before the U.S. amateur, several years before the U.S. amateur, and he and he and he gave kind of McAvoy that same answer that I just mentioned. And McAvoy responded by saying, I think it's easier, you know. He said, Really? Why? And he said, Well, he says, what I do is I look at every hole is sudden death. It has to happen on this hole. Uh, I have to win this hole. And after I win that hole, I tee it up on the next hole, and to me, it's sudden death again. Second hole, I gotta win this hole. And I and and Jay said that that mentality helped him. And he started using that. And as we all know, he really became the best match play player in the world. Um obviously the pros don't play, you know, match play. They're always playing stroke play. Uh so that that that's the best I can tell you. You know, I mean, I think the the mystery, so to speak, went with him to the grave. But I I did talk to him at length about how did you do this. And interesting that before the 1982 amateur, even though he had talked about the match play issues that he had and the phobia he had, he really gave the credit to something that you talked about in the piece that you contributed to the book. And that is that he said to me, he said, you know, John, he said, I think my life just really came together at that time. He said, My home life, my family life. As you and I know, Jay and Betty lost twin boys at birth. Uh we obviously know about the accident. Uh he had some devastating losses for him. You know, one time he he led Gary Cowan by five shots going into the last round of the of the Porter Cup, which would have been his first major win as a young man on a national scale, besides the JC when he was younger, when he was a kid. Um and he faltered in the wind the last day, and Cowan shot a 66. He didn't just lose, he lost by like seven shots, you know, after leading by five. And it so he had these this this adversity both on the playing field as well as in his personal life. But he said that in 82, he really felt like everything had come together. He said family life, my business life. He said I it was just a feeling that I had that everything was good and my golf was good, , even though he hadn't won that year. When he got to Brookline, he had not won any major events that year.

Steve Davenport 22:11

Right.

John Riley 22:12

Um which is interesting. And that that probably made him a little bit hungrier, although I don't think he needed to be hungrier for the US amateur. Um, but that's um.

Solving Match Play With Sudden Death

Steve Davenport 22:24

I I think the I mean the time I spent with him right before the first match, it was early, it was the first tea time, and he got ready and for some reason he got ready about ten minutes too early. And so we were all done. He he had his process. I hit my wedge, I hit my pitching, I hit my nine. He goes to every club in the bag, he hits five or six shots, he goes to his chipping, he goes through his putting, and we're sitting there about to go out. And we go and we sit in his car for a minute, and I'm looking to think about well, what do I talk to the guy who's about to start the British, you know, I mean the U.S. amateur? He's a British amateur champion. He wants this for his legacy. And he's 39 years old. And the caddy master told me, well, 39-year-olds don't win the U.S. amateur. It's a young man's game. This guy, Ricky Fair, this guy, Jimmy Hallett, Bad Faction, Billy Andre, they're all great golfers. And so I asked him, like, what are you, what are you doing to try to like, you're working full time. How can you compete with people who are playing full time, as amateurs, young amateurs would be doing? And he said, I just started doing this um weightlifting program with, you know, resistance training, and I'm also running. And I talked to the running coach at Villanover about getting my strength. And he says, between my leg strength and my upper body strength and flexibility, he says, I think I can compete. Now, this is 1982. There were no golfers who were using any type of weight training because it was against the, you know, the sacrosanct rules about Jay, we played I caddy for him again down at Northeast Amateur. We went by the pool at the Northeast, and I said, wow, that looks good. He goes, Yeah, I can't swim while I'm playing golf. Because he says it it's it's a slow reflex, and I need the quick reflex in my muscles. If my muscles get used to doing something else, it makes it harder for me to control them at the top of my swing. He was looking and thinking about things that were 20 years ahead of what most golfers would think, because he wanted to find what he could do that would be an edge. And what would he could do, you know. He carried this baffler, and the baffler had those two brass rails on the bottom. And he said, I got a driver, three wood, and then the baffler. He said, When I'm a long way on a par five, and I'm gonna get out of a bad lie. And sure enough, he hit one of those bafflers to win 14. And I just think it was a pattern. The other thing that I would say that I think that we all think about ourselves and pro athletes and think about what do they do, or who are they? And I think we miss the point about it, takes a team, like you said, about his parents being a part of it. I think Betty and her role when he he got injured, and they she helped him stay in school, she helped him, you know what I mean, think about the future and going through rehab and doing everything. She was there for him, supporting him and doing everything she could to help him to be the best he could be. And I think that type of love and support, like it really does take a family of people to create success. I don't think people do it on their own. And so I think that everybody who thinks, hey, I just have to work harder. Well, no, there's a whole, you know, your job needs flexibility, you need to have you need to think about, you know, how you spend your time with your kids, can you get them involved? Like I really think it is um the Betty and Jay show, and not just Jay, um, when it comes to what was the ultimate reason for his success. They were a team, and they were not, you know, a team with um, you know, sometimes they disagreed. They were on the same page. They knew what they wanted, and he knew what he wanted, and she was doing everything. And she loved the senior tour because it was a place where they could do things together and and just, you know, really focus on him going out and swinging and saying, hey, I'm the amateur. I shouldn't be playing against these pros. And and that's the way I think they looked at it. He said, when I started it at 50, it was like my first day on the tour because I was now with the best golfers of 50 and over. And that's what I wanted to be with the PGA when I was 20. I wanted to be with all of the best golfers in the world and compete. And he achieved that by getting to 50 and then going on the senior tour and winning rookie of the year and winning nine times. I think his life really was a story of like many different decades and different lessons for him to learn, you know.

John Riley 28:12

Yeah, I um just what you talked about there, you you also mentioned in the segment in the book that you authored, , about how it dawned on you when you were sitting in the car with him as you talked to him that Jay was a happy man. And and that coincided with what Jay told me. He said, you know, again, I really felt at that time my life had really come together. And um I think that sort of serenity, if you will, um had him in a very, very good frame of mind. Uh except for the fact that I thought one of the funny parts of the book, and and again, one or two of his competitors from from the golf world, I mentioned that you had told me the story that Jay had packed a bag and it was in the car that morning that he was going to play Bob Lewis. Well, Bob Lewis had beat him um in the U.S. amateur quarterfinal at at the country club of North Carolina when Hal Sutton won it. Uh right after Jay beat Bob Tway, who was obviously a big rising star in the golf game. And , you know, basically Jay packed the bag because he knew how tough that Bob Lewis match was gonna be. And he didn't want to have to go all the way back home if he had to leave. And as I say, I mentioned it to a couple of his competitors, and they said, I don't believe that. Jay never backed, he never thought he was gonna lose. I don't believe he packed that back. I said, I'm telling you, his caddy saw the pack back.

Steve Davenport 30:07

I just I just thought it was amazing. Like you look at today, everybody's jetting around. Like he got in that car and he went from tournament to tournament. He, you know, he had done the Porter Cup, I think, a couple of weeks before. He had some friends from John Hancock Insurance that he stayed with at Newton near the club. And, you know, he was he was doing insurance, he was doing the golf, and he was he was just you know looking at these opportunities to kind of have his day in the sun. And I think he had you know so many days and so much, you know, fun in doing what he's doing. The part about it was that he never let on to anybody. You know, he was he was a stoic, and he was a stoic personality, and he was a you know, a stoic competitor. And I I think it was all part of his I have to face this person, mano and mano. And if I show him weakness, he's gonna take my weakness and use it against me. And so I'm gonna be as mentally tough and determined as I have to be. And so in that match against Lewis, you know, I the third hole, the fourth hole, Lewis is hitting a shot and and it's going near the bunker, and I say, get him the bunker. And Jay Jay tells me, Steve, you can yell as loud as you want for me, but don't ever root against my opponent. That's not the way I want to win. And so it was a critical match, and it was a critical shot early in the ground match. And I wasn't trying to be, you know, I was just kind of saying what was on my mind because I'm like, geez, that'd be great if he goes in the bunker. You know, Jay's got a an easy shot to get on the green.

John Riley 32:01

And you're 19 years old, you know. You're 19 years old and you're rooting for your guy.

Brookline Prep And Finding An Edge

Steve Davenport 32:07

So I know, and I guess what I would say that also was very hard for people to realize is 39-year-olds at that time did not win U.S. amateurs. Right. You know what I mean? It was unusual for anybody um to be in that position. But the guy, you know, told me the Pro Shop um, the caddy master said, look, this guy Ricky Fair, he won the Western amateur by like 12 strokes. It's a six-round, seven-round tournament, and he he just blew everybody away. He said, he's he's gonna be really hard to meet, to, to be. And so we ended up having, you know, a classic match against Rick Fair. And I just think that when you're there's some point in careers and in life where you feel you're not where you need to be. I need to be further along, I need to be higher up, I need to be, you know, running this division, or I need to be doing something bigger in a bigger house, in a bigger life. And I think the thing about Jay was that he had great plans and great ideas and great opportunities at Wake Forest. And then something happened and it changed, and he never gave up. And so what I think for people to think about in terms of investing or in terms of life is sometimes your peak doesn't happen at 25 or 26. You know, you've got to overcome something, and then later in life at 39, he peaked, like you said, and he he really discovered his time from 39 to 55, one of the great you know, runs in golf. I mean, in terms of amateur, world cups, walker cups, and you know, his senior tour. And I just think that for everybody, like I I've always been called a late bloomer. And I think that Jay, because of his injury, you know, became a late bloomer, but I mean, he kind of he he was he he had more than a few chances and more than a few times where he was able to show everybody who he was. And I just look at the teammates he had in Walker Cups, nine Walker Cups, the teammates and the opponents he had, and he was always kind of the senior statesman. And I think that you know, when you look at your teammates and you look for guys to depend on, and guys, like you say, Eddis blow up a peach tree, but like Phil Mickelson, Al Sutton, you know, the names that are on that list as teammates at the Walker Cup, I mean, it's a who's who in the Hall of Fame. And I don't think that we all got there. Like Hal Sutton was a great guy. Al Sutton was a great athlete, but it really helps when you have somebody by your side in some of these matches. And I remember Billy Andre's comment in your book was classic about, you know, it was like the voice of God speaking from above, you know, when he told him, play it to the middle, you know, and and I think about like Billy Andre will never forget, hey, I'm in the Walker Cup for the first time. And and guess what? He's got a position, he knows what he needs to do. And Jay just says, put it in the middle, you know, don't get fancy. And I think that, you know, we all learn, don't you think, John? I mean, I I don't think anybody can say, hey, I I built my game on my own ability and my own hard work. And, you know, I mean, are you a believer in genetics or in environment? Or what do you think is is creates a great golfer?

John Riley 36:07

Well, I would say to people, this goes back to our earlier part of the discussion, because I would say to people, um I'm I just think Jay was born this way. You know, I think he had enormous talent. Uh, it was evident from the time he like first picked up a golf club. He was surrounded by great mentors, especially his father. But he was at Valley Golf Club with all of those um great sports announcers. You know, I mean he grew up with with them, you know, kind of looking after him, guys like Chris Schenkel and Jack Whitaker. And I mean, it was really it was really quite a lineup that you know worked next door at the television station in Philadelphia. And um, you know, he still remembered lessons and things that they said to him many, many years ago. And he, you know, he he really wanted to and and I think it linked to the Bob Jones Award in so many ways. Uh you know, he's he saw Bob Jones and that award as as the pinnacle as much as he saw the U.S. amateur as the pinnacle. Um that meant so much to him because it wasn't just about his playing ability, it was about his position in the game, it was about character, it was about who he was, it was about integrity. Uh and all of those things were so important to me. I mean when I interviewed Gary Player for the book, and Gary Player was just , he said, just he said Jay was just an incredible gentleman. He said seemed to always do and say the right thing. Um and he said I never even heard him, I never heard him complain. He said, I never I never heard him even use a curse word, is what Gary said. Uh or f foul language like you hear today, he said that wasn't Jay. Uh it was like a standard he was always trying to live up to. And I I think that can be tough for a lot of people. That that living up to a certain standard be can become like a burden. And Jay just didn't see it that way. You know, I have to be who I have to be, I have to live up to my parents, I have to live up to Bobby Jones and what he was and what he meant, and all the greats that had come before him. Uh, you know, he certainly had great admiration for Jack Nicholas, , enormous admiration to Jack. Not that he didn't for Arnie, he had great a admiration for Arnie. Um, but , you know, he just saw how they handled themselves, how they how they went about their life, and how they handled the people, how they handled the fans, how they did the things they did. Um, you know, Jay's style was different because he was very quiet, he was kind of, you know, standoffish, if you will, and withdrawn. He he did joke that he got a little more outgoing when he got out on the senior tour and got a little more focused on, hey, you know, I got to entertain here a bit. Uh in the amateur game, it certainly wasn't that way. I mean, it was just no, it was just about winning every time he teated up and being the best that he could be. And he devoted himself to being the best he could be in really everything that he did. I think that's the other thing that helps Jay stand out, you know. And you know, you look at a you look at like a Harvey Ward, who maybe was the greatest amateur name before Jay. Um, you know, obviously you kind of base everything on on , and I'm gonna call this a category of career amateur, but I'll go back to you know Bobby Jones as being the greatest career amateur. Uh then you had Harvey Ward in the in the 50s, but yeah, I mean you look at kind of a troubled life with Harvey Ward. You know, I mean it just he just like couldn't hold the rest of it together, um, just as we all see with Tiger Woods today.

Steve Davenport 40:29

Um, you know, I mean Alan. I grew I grew up with Tiger, we met being one of the great amateurs, and I think it was a different era that early, you know, early 1900s.

John Riley 40:40

They were the leaders in the game, not the professional side. I mean, you did have Walter Hagen, but it was an amateur game in those days.

Winning With Integrity And Support

Steve Davenport 40:48

Right. And Chick Evans out in Chicago. Yeah, you know, I think I think there are a lot of great players, and there are a lot of great people. And what I guess I read the book, and I think that people need to look at it as is just how many times you need to show up in the arena in order to win. And everybody can talk about, oh, I think this guy would win, or this guy. Show up, give your best, and and then you know, let the chips fall where they may. Jay showed up a lot because he really wanted to to win a lot, and he wanted to show people, like you said, because of his pride of his parents, the pride of his wife and his family. Um you know, at the country club, there was a woman who was in the finals of the women's amateur in the 50s who was a relative of his. And he looked at his name, you know, his name was on the, you know, the the the board at the country club, and he's like, Yeah, that's my aunt. You know, a second couple, you know. But it and to me, I guess what I would say is when you've got determination and you're willing to compete, you you're not leaving it on the sideline and saying, Oh, I think it would be nice to compete. You really, you know what I mean, you come and you bring it every time. And that's where I think his position, you know, I think that people today are very much upon schedule. And hey, I only want to play in this tournament or that tournament or this course suits my swing. Or like these tournaments, when you win a USGA championship, they look for a course that's going to challenge every swing. They look for places that are legendary, that have had legends play them before. And so when you achieve at the country club, you know, U.S. amateur champion, that's that means something more than just saying, hey, I went and I played, you know, um, at a course that I really like and I kept playing it until I won it. It's you know, there's a uniqueness to the USGA and the amateur. I guess we're getting near kind of the end. What do you think, John, the book represents to you in terms of the average reader, the average golf fan, what do you think they'll get out of it when they go through the the summary of the different life of Jay?

John Riley 43:27

Well, I think one of the things that um that that it was interesting. When I did my book on Porky Oliver, Jay read the book and he gave me an endorsement for the back of the book, and he said to me, he said, Wow, he said, , I'd heard of Porky, and the guys on the senior tour used to talk about him. He said, But I never understood how good he was. I never understood how good he was. That's this probably just a simple element that the real golf fan can take away. Is yeah, I've heard of that guy, Jay Siegel. You will read this book and you will say, Wow, this guy isn't just, you know, maybe the second greatest amateur of all time. Um, and I'm kind of discounting a Tiger Woods winning, you know, three U.S. amateurs in a row, because obviously he turned professional right away. He wasn't what we call a career amateur. But you'd look at Jay and say this guy was a career amateur all the way up to the age of 50, and you know, certainly performed , you know, better than anyone else. But then you get inside of the story and you see how good he was all the time against everyone. You know, I mean he he won his first Philadelphia Open. Really outstanding professionals in the Philadelphia region, the tri-state area and even others coming in for it and from across Pennsylvania. And , you know, I mean a long history of phenomenal winners of that tournament. And he wins it by 12 strokes. He doesn't just the same way the Pennsylvania amateur, great players. He wins by 18 strokes. He did things on the golf course that just astonish you at times. Whether it's coming from five behind on the back nine and winning the match, whether it's winning two U.S. amateurs both eight and seven I mean just crushing his opponents.

Steve Davenport 45:43

Doesn't he have a senior record in one of the GTD tournaments?

John Riley 45:47

Sorry, what was that one?

Steve Davenport 45:48

The senior tournament record for like a 62 or something.

John Riley 45:52

His his so he he he shot a 61 at the Canapali Open in Hawaii. That was when Hale Irwin was winning everything and he gets paired with Hale Irwin in the first round. He beat Hale by 12 strokes. Wow this guy's the best one of the best golfers in the world at the time certainly the best senior golfer in the world at the time and Jay goes up against him and Jay beats him by 12 shots. He but I I I think the to the senior part which I think is a also a testament to that you know that mental strength, that intestinal fortitude that he had when you want something very, very badly you know like you think about Rory McElroy last year on the 72nd green of Augusta National as he collapses to his knees, you know, from the pressure of carrying that all those years and not being able to get there. He had never won a big tournament in Philadelphia. And he he fell behind after the first round of the professional tournaments being 54 holes he had collapsed a couple years before in Philadelphia I think 75 or 77 maybe even in the last round after leading going in lots and lots of pressure he had lost U.S. amateur to John Foat in Philadelphia in the semifinals at Eronimic he he just never had won that big one and he got up that Saturday morning and he went to the course Hartfeld outside of not far out outside of Wilmington but in Pennsylvania and he he played the front nine and nine under par. This tournament's got Jack Nichols in it it's got Arnold Palmer it's got Lee Travino it's got the best players in the world and they are looking up at a scoreboard and watching a guy go from a couple underpar in nine holes to all of a sudden like 13 under par and they're looking at the scoreboard saying how can this happen how can anyone shoot nine under for nine holes it's still a record today. I mean would you be able to knock in you know a six foot putt on the ninth hole if you knew it was going to set a record and be I mean you were going to shoot 27 um but he had to but still he wanted that tournament so bad his family was there his daughter was on was on the staff of running the tournament and he wanted it so bad and he lost the lead the very last day and he had to go into a playoff. And the third hole of the playoff you know he knocked it like seven feet knocked it in and finally you know accomplished that goal of winning a really big one in in the Philadelphia area so he he just he just never gave up on those those important things how important they were and I can go back to the point I made people will be astonished at his mental toughness they will be astonished at how good he was how often he won how how he simply buried people sometimes in these tournaments and you can understand the intimidation factor.

Records, Legacy, And Why Read It

Steve Davenport 49:28

Well yeah I mean I I was impressed when I got to to know him and and when when I got involved in his golf tournament and to see like Marion is a a mile away from a Ronomik and you know what I mean he grew up and played or went to elementary school at the lower Marion you know um day school or something and and the courses in Pennsylvania I mean if you want to say about which states have a lot of course you know there are some great courses and the way you outlined all the courses and moved around into all of the details about how he succeeded I think his upbringing in the Pennsylvania golf community was a part of how he succeeded what he did. I think his being involved in first T was a part of who he was in terms of giving back. I think that when he played on the senior tour and he started to make you know winning nine times I look at that and I think you know that was him expressing that even against the best people of my age I competed and I won. And I just look at that and I think I attribute it to grit. I know he had he had natural ability but a lot of other people have natural ability as well. And what differentiated him in my mind was that grit. And you could feel it and you could feel the confidence and you could feel I always thought it was interesting he had these irons the RAM irons and he had put weighted tape on the back of all of his irons like a certain I I think it was an ounce and a half or something of tape on those irons. So they were just like he was hitting the ball so hard that he didn't mind the extra weight. He wanted that extra force on the ball when he was hitting it. And so in my mind what I remember is a guy who was always pushing the limits and trying to do the best he can with what he's given. And I think it's an inspiring story of golf. I think it's an inspiring story of life and um I mean I think you've done a great thing here John your book is a great book and it's coming out it's being on the inaugural or the the the book release is the book of August 29th?

John Riley 51:59

Yeah is April 29th at Ironomick of course where you know where he played his golf and just before I got on the call with you I was on the phone with I was on a zoom call with Fred Ridley um you know what a what a terrific guy I mean obviously he just finished one of the most as chair of Augusta one of the most incredible tournaments of all time just as it was the year before and he thinks of his friend Jay and he says I know I'm come going to be coming up to Wilmington to speak on behalf of Jay and I get a note from him this morning hey can you talk today at two o'clock you know I mean just just a terrific guy and I and it says something that so many and and many of these folks will be there on on April 29th but so many who just had such enormous respect for Jay um just I mean that you just call them admirers they just had enormous respect for him you can see that with Fred you could see that with so many of the other players who who speak you know so highly so respectfully of Jay for for various reasons for the way he had that balance in his life for the way he dedicated himself to success to excellence um and you know he he certainly was at the top he was at the very top yeah I mean I think you you did a great job capturing his life the last amateur that's coming out April 29th I personally um am going to be sending some copies to all the people who I think appreciate the details of golf and the history and how it all ties together.

Release Details And Closing Reflections

Steve Davenport 53:53

I think you know I was listening to one of the people talk about Jay and they said you know what one of the players who spoke most highly about Jay um Colin Montgomery they met in a final of one you know they were the last two playing each other in a match play for the Walker Cup and um I think Jay won that match um but Colin just remembers you know the gentleman the the the the discipline player the idea like when I think about if I was about to go pro and I could play with Walker Cup teammates against the best players in England and Ireland for a week like there's a lot of things you can learn from others and I think that Jay had what I would call a very rich life and the people and the courses and um I'll just leave one detail that I asked Jay as I like to ask questions because you know I'm skeptical and I also want to know things. And so I asked Jay um you know who would you play with if you could have the ideal force of it and he said um Jack Nicholas my father and Arnold Palmer and and I said you know what's the best golf course you've ever played and he said I don't know it's probably between um Pebble Beach and what's the other course there in California Cypress Point he said Cypress Point. Yeah and he said Cypress Point to me would where I'd love to have that match and you know play with those guys and so I think for all of us who dream about what it's like to go down the fairway I think that reading John's book will give you that feeling of walking down the fairway of some beautiful places and a great summary of a life in golf. So I really appreciate you coming on the podcast Mr. John and and I look forward to the book and helping I'll do everything I can to make it as successful as we can because I think it's a great story and a great life.

John Riley 56:17

Well thanks Steve it's great to be with you today so much appreciated.