Hello , hello everybody , welcome back to Conquering Chaos . A mom's guide to self-care and sanity . I'm your host , sydney Crow , and today we have the amazing Saloni . Sarath Saloni is a doctor , she is also an author , and I'm really excited for her to come on and just share her journey . So welcome , thank you . Thank you for having me .
Speaker 1Welcome . It's great . We were just having an amazing conversation prior to kicking off the show , and so I'm really excited . Let's just dive right in and you can share your story with the listeners , because you've had quite a journey over the last couple of years . Your kids are four and two now , and motherhood did not start out the way that you had hoped it would .
Speaker 2No , I had a really terrible start to motherhood . I am an older mum and I waited a long time to have children because it took me a long time to meet somebody . Part of that was my career , that it consumed so much . I also have a PhD and I've moved country a few times . I've worked all over and that meant that I was older . So for a long time I didn't think it was going to happen . And there's a big piece around that and grief that you get when you think , gosh , that's not going to happen for me and it's not how you envisioned your life to be . Not that it ever works out the way you envision it to be , but I always thought that children would feature and we see on tv that the you have kids and and get married and that's it . But it's a whole other ball game then . So for me , I met my husband later and we had probably been together about a year when I mentioned it , because I was in my 40s , just getting into them and it was going to be now or ever . And it was a funny be now or never . And it was a funny conversation because he he was I don't know that he was really ready for it and obviously he loves them and it's great now . But it's it's quite transition when you're older to to . You've got to bridge that gap quite quickly . You don't have five , ten years to to have that time to get there .
Speaker 2And I went into it not in a good place . I had had some work situations and I had quite bad workplace bullying and , unbeknownst to me , had PTSD undiagnosed , untreated , not from the want of trying . And then I got pregnant fairly easily , which shocked me . I always thought it would take me quite a while but it was , yeah , fairly easy , considering everything that had been going on . And unfortunately , because of the PTSD and feeling unsafe and I had some stalking and all this stuff , I ended up moving country when I was quite heavily pregnant . So I was living in Ireland at the time and I moved back to the UK . Part of it was because I knew that I'd probably need support and where I had a well , I have Christmas babies , so they were due at the end of the year and I find January a hard month anyway , but I was slightly concerned about a newborn and at that time Ireland , dublin , was crazy , so Brexit was happening and prices and rentals were astronomical , so it just seemed like the right thing to do . It did mean moving .
Speaker 2I was trying to negotiate healthcare systems , not being in a great position with the PTSD and I had even though I'm a medic , I'm quite alternative so I had in my mind that I wanted a water birth in hospital . So I did the hypnobirthing and the pregnancy yoga and I thought this is going to be it and went for acupuncture , went for acupuncture before getting pregnant and also during the pregnancy , thinking be fine and I'll go into labour , no problem . Of course I didn't and I ended up being induced and that , unfortunately , the maternity hospital I went to isn't the best , and hindsight is a wonderful thing . But at that time I didn't know , and I didn't know about negotiating and even who to transfer late , who the good consultants are , who the good midwives are and all that stuff . So I ended up with an induction , which I didn't want . They had said that I had lost weight and I was kind of like , are you sure , because this is fully engaged , I can't walk properly . Of course that like that , hadn't I . He hadn't lost weight when he was born , but it was an induction and like a three-day thing with a catheter and the thing and I had wanted to move around and it was full-on pump so I couldn't move and I found that one of the hardest things about my labor was just being having to sit in one position and the hormones . So , after everything and getting there and not taking a massive amount of stuff , I'd tens and like , I think , a codeine and a bit of morphine . I ended up fully dilated and trying to have it as natural as possible but just didn't happen .
Speaker 2And then I ended up with a forceps and an episiotomy which went into a third degree rectal tear and it was terrible . I was like to them at the time please could you not do a cesarean ? And they said look was , it was too . It was , they were too far down . But I just remember seeing my husband in the theatre crying and looking . I'm going , why ? Why is he crying ? Obviously I'd had a bit of morphine by that point . So I was three sheets to the wind and as a I think as a man , if you see forceps they're pretty bye-bye but they're not not nice .
Speaker 2So and it was quite , took quite a long time and I was like why is this taking so long ? I remember them saying I'd had a tear and talking and they told me a load of stuff that I don't remember which was terrible about this and that , not saying the bath . And then my little one had a low temperature and wasn't feeding . They'd had a full tongue tie and it was just terrible . I think I just sobbed for the first 24 hours . I think it was the hormones . I thought this was going to be my big savior . He , you know , couldn't feed . Then he got taken to Niku and I was so exhausted that a part of me was almost relieved . I just wanted to sleep , because three days you go on the Saturday and then it's like Monday morning , so it's like three days later .
Speaker 2Yeah , and it took me a long time to recover . I really I don't know what it's like in Canada , but the postnatal care wasn't great . I lost two units of blood and nobody told me . My legs swelled up two days later and I ended up in A&E thinking I had a DVT and it wasn't . It was just blood loss and nobody gave me iron but it also really struggled not to bond . I was just petrified . I was just really scared . I was scared to hold my child and I was scared and unfortunately I don't know what it's like there . The health visitors were very much like no co-sleeping and they scared the crap out of me and that was probably in hindsight , looking back .
Speaker 2For those first few months really what I needed was the co-sleeping and I think my child was really traumatized as well and then I obviously was a bit emotionally unavailable because I was so traumatized . But then I had burst trauma on top of the PTSD and I was having breastfeeding problems because of the tongue tie . They needed another cut , so they had two cuts . So it was a really tricky period and not the start that I had wanted and dreamt of and envisioned at all and it was very hard to get help even as a medic . It was really hard with the labours and certainly when I went for that induction I don't feel it was an informed choice . It was just kind of like I would do this for you and that's that , and I was on my own in that clinic appointment .
Speaker 2You're wiser the second time . But I don't feel that was really informed and that I was really aware of the risk because I was even listened to like my birth plan . When we're going in for the induction and the midwife going well , she's not going to get any of that kind of hearing it going okay , because it's quite tough . I think when you're laboring and you're being examined and I didn't want to be examined because you're like , oh god , I'm , I'm only five centimetres , I'm only seven centimetres there is that part of your brain that gets slightly competitive and like I should be further and it just always feels like you're being assessed and you're not quite achieving or something or not quite there . For me , when I think of the births that I had , they feel really devoid of that spiritual midwifery . I had a different birth the second time . It was a caesarean because of the tear , no-transcript of them and that kind of sadness that not being able to do that or that , somehow I had failed physically . Do you know what I mean ?
Speaker 1yeah , just grieving the loss of this picture that you had put into your mind .
Speaker 2Yes , oops yeah , absolutely yes , and I struggled with that transition to be a mother . I think sometimes when you're a bit older you're used to that independence , so it can be challenging . It doesn't mean I didn't desperately and I've had the conversation with my child about this desperately , desperately . Call him my little miracle . He's absolutely wonderful . It was a big change , that introduction to motherhood , and I was emotionally unavailable . I was so traumatized by the whole thing and really mental health wise , I had to battle to get treatment . So I was pinged between the health visitor and the midwife and the health visitor was like , look you're , you're anxious and depressed on these HAB score but wouldn't refer me to anybody . And I was like , but there's no point telling me , there's . No , actually no point screening me if you're not going to do anything about it . Yeah , absolutely .
Speaker 2I did eventually end up with mental health and I ended up getting my PTSD treated , but I should have gone to prenatal mental health and been under their care for two years and had my birth trauma treated at the same time . I had to go back in the second pregnancy to do that . So I think for me , talking about that mental health issue after a birth , especially those instrumentals where they don't go the way that you want it to go , you're often not listened to and I understand that they just want to get the baby out , but I just the disconnection between a bad birth and a birth further down the line and the bonding and the impact on that child and the mother and relationships .
Speaker 1I felt so guilty for such a long time I was unavailable now would you say that your situation is like an abnormal case in the UK , or is this kind of like a standard ?
Speaker 2no-transcript wanted to close that part of my life back and it wasn't to complain , but it was to say , look , how can we make this better for other women ? And I was having this discussion with the head of the matron of the inpatient services and said , look , I've had so many mums say to me another mum has said she'd gone back for a review and it was a totally different clinician and they actually told her factually incorrect stuff and she said I didn't need to go in on that day , I could have gone in another day . The fact that I went in and so many other mums that I've spoken to said they'd had this similar thing I was like why is there not a counsellor there ? Why is there not a counsellor ? Okay , you've got a somebody a midwife or a clinician there , but why is there not a counsellor when you're doing these feedback sessions or birth reviews ? Because by the nature of you doing them , they're traumatic .
Women are traumatised and some of these women had have lost children . Some of these women had children when were on ICU and didn't get to hold their babies for two weeks . It was traumatic stuff . Women who had ended up then going to prenatal mental health and requiring treatment for birth trauma .
Speaker 2And they just said , oh well , funding , and that's the way it is but like , okay , I had PTSD but I also ended up having birth trauma . When I was pregnant with my second child , I literally would wake up having nightmares about giving birth , even as a cesarean , and the EMDR the rapid eye movement , desensitization and reprocessing treatment that I had for both birth trauma and my PTSD meant that I had a pleasurable birth . It wasn't the birth that I wanted , but my intention had been look , peaceful , calm birth , everyone was well , baby fed and I got that and she was happy and I was happy and it was calm and that treatment totally transformed that for me that birth trauma . So there's so many women wandering around with trauma after having birth and I think birth trauma is probably fairly common and referrals for treatment and the way it's treated , even by the obstetricians .
Speaker 2Because I went back for my six-week checkup because it was instrumental , I had to go to the clinic and they were just shocked that I sobbed . I just sobbed all the way through that consultation and they sent me to the counsellor and so I went to the counsellor a month later and she said I'm really sorry , I don't know why you're here and I just sat and cried and she goes I'm really glad you're here , but actually you need a psychologist , not not me .
Speaker 2Come back to me if they , if you don't get to the psychologist , but actually that's really what you need . So that that was an obstetric clinic that I went back to yeah , I mean our system's quite a bit different here .
Speaker 1I mean this conversation , I have to say , has been very eyeopening for me , just given my own experience my own , my oldest daughter definitely had birth trauma there . We were in the hospital for five days post-birth . There was a whole bunch and I can get into that story on another podcast , but it's it's . We don't . We don't really do a like a go back and talk about our birth with the hospital in any way , shape or form . I mean , our family doctors typically are the ones that are coming into the clinic and doing deliveries , and I was a member of like a family clinic where these doctors share patients and whoever's on call delivers your baby . Like you don't really have a say , it just depends on when you go into labor . That works really well and they share patients . You have one specific family GP .
Speaker 1But this conversation , I just have to say , has been incredibly eye-opening for me and just given my own experience and knowing that there are so many different ways that women do experience trauma during birth , because I think that it's not something that we talk about very often and I think it needs to be a conversation that we bring to the forefront , definitely more so . So I appreciate you being on the show and sharing that journey , because it's it is definitely . I mean , my daughter is now almost 11 . But I have to say this conversation has been a little triggering for me personally . So if I feel a little scattered as you guys are listening to this conversation , it's my brain is going in a million different directions right now . But I have to say , like , given , given your situation , given what you've gone through and how overcome what you've come like , gone through the PTSD , the birth trauma how do you feel that that helps you parent today ?
Speaker 2I'm honest , I've had the conversation with my eldest child about how I was unwell when they were born and how I desperately wanted them , but I was unwell and I could probably have been better when they were born . I've had that and and , therefore , and I've had that more than once . So I think it does . These things happen . Pretending they haven't happened doesn't make it better or go away . I think it's actually the worst thing to do , and there was a lot of guilt for a long time .
Speaker 1And .
Speaker 2I think I probably overcompensated , but now it's kind of like well , this happened . It wasn't good . I'm telling you , I love you desperately . You were my miracle . You were everything I was hoping for and more . It didn't work out how I wanted . I had to fight to get that treatment , but you know , I want you to know that I'm sorry if you felt that I wasn't there because I wasn't , because they do the babies do pick up on that . He cried a lot and I was less emotionally available and I will forever worry that that has had a negative impact . Do you know what I mean ? So , but there's nothing I can do about that . All I can do is go on and heal myself and I did that and get the treatment , have a different experience and feedback about that .
Speaker 2I am also going to train in the EMDR this summer as my plan . I haven't . I do coach as well . A variety of stuff , but I take a bit . I call myself a change agent , basically . So it might be love , it might be money , it might be whatever . Last time I coached , I had a whole family , the teenagers and the mom and dad , and it was fab . And then they , they don't need me anymore , which is wonderful too , but I found it so powerful the EMDR and I do , I do a lot of other stuff too that I'm planning on training in it . I'm not quite sure what I'm going to do with it , but you know it was . I mean , it gave me my life back and it enabled me to go from having that birth trauma and those nightmares to having a really different experience with my second .
Speaker 2I saw somebody on tv saying this and I'm just going to say this like losing a child or birth trauma or stuff like that is PTSD . It's it's like PTSD , it's like army veterans coming back from war and that's what women are going through with births and how it's little overlooked by obstetricians . That's what shocks me . I mean I'm a medic , I've looked after people from all over the world and and and people who've injected drugs and been abused and I haven't spoken to them the way that I've been spoken to , even as another clinician , by obstetric services and it and it shocks me . I mean it's the same over here . You , you have a consultant , but it's whoever you're on call with on the day you go to clinic . So it's similar in that way . They are obstetricians , but yeah , I'm doing it , I'm talking about it .
Speaker 2I'm saying , look , this is what happened . Judging by the women that I've spoken to , or even my group of mums that I met as an NCT cast , it wasn't a unique experience . There's plenty of other women had trauma in that group and out of mum's groups and it's something that why not have a counselor at a feedback ? So the reviews or the feedbacks they're not routine , but usually if you've had a traumatic birth or you've lost a child or something , you can ask for it . So I asked for it . I was like I don't understand what happened . It was absolutely appalling the first time and I went back and got a second with when I was pregnant second time , which is much better , and they did go through it and I sobbed because it was a traumatic birth and the reality was they ended up having to put in a lot more time to me in the consultations and that second pregnancy and I just cannot see how the obstetricians and those responsible in maternity health can't see that one andon-one as two yeah , yeah , no , absolutely , and I think it's .
Speaker 1I mean , all we can keep doing is bringing more awareness around this and sharing our stories , because it shouldn't be the norm , right , like cases like this . I mean , yeah , things are bound to happen from now and then , but the fact that there are mom after mom after mom having these experiences and it's not just in the UK or in Canada , it's all over the world there needs to be a shift here . Where it's there needs to be more mental checks , I think , prior to delivery , making sure that moms are aware . I mean , for me , especially with my first , it was like you go to a prenatal class and it was like , hey , this is the delivery and you build what you , I think your , plan is going to be . And then , when you get there and things don't go as planned , there's no course of action , like nobody had prepared me for . Okay , what if this doesn't happen ? Or these are things that could happen and these are ways that we can deal with this , like it was just this . This is your situation . You're just , you're stuck here for five days and if we have to suction your child out more and she stops breathing , and like all of these things . It's just like I was like , okay , and I remember finally getting her home Nobody had said why , like the tests had changed , and I was just staring at her . I was like I was so afraid that she would stop breathing that my husband was , like , have you gone to sleep yet ? Like you need , you need to go to sleep . I'll watch her so that you could sleep . And just having somebody tell me that they would keep her eyes on , like my husband would keep her , his eyes on her , so that I felt comfortable , that I could sleep right . Like there's there's women that are dealing with things like that all over the world . So bringing these conversations to the forefront , I think , is so important so that we can hopefully start to see some sort of shift , or or that moms can be better prepared going into things to say like hey , like this is an ideal situation , this is what I would like to see with my birth plan . But if things go wrong , here are some courses of action that I would like to see taken so that it's not just you wake up basically from your , your drugs that they fed you , so that you're not in pain and you have no idea really what has happened right In the case of you and even myself . So I appreciate you being here and sharing your story . I think it's really important .
Speaker 1One thing that you mentioned earlier on in the podcast is that you were told not to co-sleep with your first , and I have the exact same experience and I think , like you had said , it was so important for you , yeah , to to feel like maybe that that would have been part of the solution in that time , but you were so fear-mongered out of it , and I had the exact same experience in Canada , and I think that women need to start tuning into their intuition more .
Speaker 1There needs to be more of this awareness , and I get that there are sleep , sleep hazards , but looking back , when I was able to co-sleep with my second , I felt that bond so much better . Right , I just knew I was like you know what ? This is how I'm getting sleep , this is where she feels comfort , and I just tuned into my intuition in that moment versus the allowing my head to take over , and it sounds like you had a very similar experience yes , I mean I , I understand , I understand why , but I think there are safe ways of doing it and certainly I think in hindsight now that was probably what I needed and my child needed .
And I have a funny not funny , it's a crazy story . I was telling someone this the other day . So obviously I'm a medic and I'm asian and if you're as Asian , my parents come from India . They , they hear , so they the BCG vaccine . Okay , so at two weeks I took my eldest . For that I was so out of it that I took them . It wasn't , wasn't a priority . My parents have been here for years . We don't live in a high TB area . All the best stuff . I would be the big TB risk because I've looked after a lot of TB with being a HIV doc . But I took them because I was so out of it and yet so they could do that , but yet they couldn't give me the mental health support . And it's crazy , like when I think about it now , as they rang me for my daughter and I was like just go away . I'm just not doing this by that point I was , but you know I can laugh about it now going . It's actually crazy that you could . Two weeks .
Speaker 2We weren't high risk , but you know you couldn't get me referred for telling me I was anxious and depressed I just think counsellors and certainly mental health wise and even the instrumental , like they tried to discharge me from the physio like I , it massively that pelvic floor and rectal tear massively affected how I felt as a woman , how I felt sexually , my function down there . I had to battle to get back . They tried to discharge me , the pelvic floor , the physios , and they said , look , put down and do this . And I was and I played stupid and I was like no , no , I'm gonna come back to you . But with COVID they discharged me and then told me to go private . But if you need a pelvic floor physio you need a specialist , you don't just want any other , any random physio . That was in itself quite traumatic because it massively affects how you feel as a woman .
Speaker 2I know because I've done pelvic pain clinics . The pelvic dysfunction was a real shock and really traumatic and you're scared to look down there . You're scared to touch down there .
Speaker 1Yeah , absolutely . I mean , it just sounds like there were so many holes in the system in your case , I mean and I know that you're not alone in experiencing that so I mean having you as an MD , as a PhD , being able to be there and , as you called yourself , a change maker , I think that that's just such a beautiful title that you're able to go out and help other women and share your story , because , yeah , I mean , it's just there were so many issues that you had to go through and face and overcome , and and your strength is , and perseverance , I mean , is very , very inspiring , and so I'm just so grateful that you were able to hop on here and share some of your story . I know that you have a couple of books coming out soon .
Speaker 1Do you want to share a little bit about those before we sign off .
Speaker 2Yes , I'd love to . Well , I have a couple of things . One is I do read . I have read loads on social media , so I have a YouTube channel . Things One is I do read . I have read-alouds on social media , so I have a YouTube channel . So if you're a mum and you want to grab coffee and put your child in front of a book , I've got a couple on there , some lovely authors and that's At Bedtime Stories by Saloni , so they're free and up there . Sometimes you want to just go and have five minutes or have a poo or just have a cry in the toilet because something's just not worked out or the kids have been crying .
Speaker 2My first book was published last summer and that was actually my fourth book . It's called Flora Investigates the Case of the Missing Gold Eggs , and that is an early chapter book , so it's seven to nine year olds and it's about a girl detective , so I was a little naughty . It's based on my husband's friends and family . My mother-in-law used to keep chickens and one day one went missing and my husband joked that there had been a murder in the garden . So it's set in Italy because he's Italian and she's a girl detective . I don't have the front cover but I have my bookmark .
Speaker 2That's Flora . She's a girl detective and she wants to hit the big time and there's not a lot of people that want to employ girl detectives but she's not going to be held back by society . So she sets up her own agency and finds her first paid case . A gold egg laying chicken has gone missing and there's a flying boat and a dancing cheese eating pirate and a hunter and a lot of cats . But it's really a book about a girl who has a dream and doesn't give up .
Speaker 2I've looked after a lot of poverty and illiteracy so I wanted to inspire kids through storytelling and books and imagination because I know and again with the reading not every child has that at home . So that's that and I have a first of May . My second book , the Last Fairy Guardian , is coming out and that's middle grade , so eight to 12 year olds , and that's a clipped wing fairy book about bullying and how we all get our wings clipped at some point and how we get them back and the power of forgiveness . So there's a lot of magic , there's a lot of potions , there's wings , there's friendships forbidden friendships between fairies and humans . So that's coming out in May .
Speaker 1Wonderful . Well , I mean , I have two little girls that I know would just love to read both of those books , so I can't wait to share those with them . This episode will be coming out , so we'll make sure that we can include some links under the show for you guys to get access to those books and to her YouTube channel , so that you guys can just have some story time with your kiddos . I've really enjoyed our time together . Is there any last piece of advice that you'd like to give the mums out there ?
Speaker 2Oh , what can I say ? I think you're all amazing . It's really . You don't realise how wonderful and amazing and messy and beautiful it is until you go there and it's . There's a bond
, isn't there ? I was up swimming today with my daughter and my son was there and one of the other mums had gone gosh , I've forgotten the swimming costume and we were like just get me a swim nappy . And I was like do you want to borrow my other swim nappy ? And I think that there's some really lovely bits there , but it can be incredibly lonely . I remember being that mum wanting just desperately to make some mum friends . So I think just keep on persevering , it will get better , and ask for help , and sometimes you have to fight for it , but you know you deserve it , and so do your children .
Speaker 1I love that . I mean absolutely . I think that that message is very , very powerful and I hope that all the mums out there listening feel a little less alone and just feel a little more empowered in their decisions . So thank you again for being here today and thank you , guys , for tuning into today's episode where we help you conquer the chaos one day at a time .