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The Hangout
#70 Judge CJ Mody, Humanizing the Law
We're honored to welcome Judge CJ Mody, the first South Asian justice to serve on the San Diego Superior Court.
This exchange connects the personal with the universal, offering listeners a rare glimpse into the life and work of a judge who leads with integrity, wisdom and empathy.
The humanity piece of students, of a child, of teaching compassion, of teaching that aspect of growth, I think is far more valuable than almost any book. Learning that a child can do.
Speaker 2:In this episode, I was honored and privileged to sit down for a conversation with Judge CJ Modi. Judge Modi joined the bench in January of 2021, right in the middle of COVID as the first South Asian American judge to sit on the San Diego Superior Court. He was born in Bombay, india, now known as Mumbai. Judge Modi was 12 years old when he and his family immigrated to the United States. After graduating from the University of San Diego, judge Modi worked as a teacher with the Juvenile Court and Community Schools, and on previous episodes of this podcast, we've touched on some of the work going on at JCCS, which is an alternative schooling program in San Diego for students who are homeless, incarcerated or wards of the court. And after teaching for a couple of years, judge Modi returned to the University of San Diego for law school. He then subsequently became a prosecutor and then later a judge.
Speaker 2:Cj and I cover a wide range of topics, from what life is really like for a judge, the vast amount of reading and preparation that goes into decision-making, how AI is starting to make incursions into the legal profession and the courtroom, and also really the perils of those incursions, and much, much more. I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. Welcome to the Superintendent's Hangout, where we discuss topics in education, charter schools, life in general, and not necessarily in that order. I'm your host, dr Shredda. Come on in and hang out. Welcome, cj. Thank you for coming in this afternoon and hanging out for a little bit here. Thank you for having me, it's my pleasure.
Speaker 2:I was wondering if you could start with sharing your personal origin story, where you come from, what your journey's been to the present moment, personally as well as professionally.
Speaker 1:So I was born in Bombay, india. It's now Mumbai, but I still can't get over calling it Bombay. I was born in Bombay, lived there for the first 12 years of my life. My parents, my brother and I and in 1987, my father decided to emigrate from India and decided to move to the United States. I always joke that we're lucky that he chose San Diego rather than some of the more traditional places that Indians usually immigrate to, like New Jersey or Houston nothing against Humidity and hurricanes and humidity Right.
Speaker 1:So nothing against those two places, but San Diego is San Diego. So we moved to San Diego in 1987 and I've lived here ever since then. You know it was an interesting journey because I was 12, my brother was 10. Interesting journey because I was 12, my brother was 10. You don't really realize the sacrifices your parents make to make a move that significant. When you're that age. You think everything's great and you're moving and it's fun because you're in a new place. You leave some things behind. But we never realized the sacrifices my parents made to move over here.
Speaker 1:The primary reason my parents decided to move was our education and our opportunities growing up, that's. There are a lot of opportunities now, more so than there were back in 1987. Kids in India now go to college around the world. They come here to the United States for college and have those opportunities. That really wasn't something that was present back then. So it was a big deal when we moved and my parents were business owners in India. They moved here. They became business owners here.
Speaker 1:There was a lot of adjustment that took place as a result of that and again, you don't realize the struggles your parents go through.
Speaker 1:They did a lot to make sure that we stayed away from all the financial issues they were dealing with and everything else that came with that, while trying to keep us stable, our lives stable, our education stable. And so, looking back, that's something I know we'll touch on this a little bit later but that's something that really really formed who I am as a person and the values I have as an individual in my life today. So moved here in 87, went to high school here in San Diego, left for a year to go to college at Cal Poly and I loved Cal Poly and San Luis Obispo beautiful area. But then I came back to the University of San Diego my sophomore year and graduated from USD and then went to law school at USD and eventually became a DA with the DA's office after law school and then my career path has just followed the DA's office 19 years and then I was lucky enough to be elected as a superior court judge in March of 2020, which is where I am right now.
Speaker 2:Was there anything in your upbringing that would have indicated or kind of guided you in the direction of justice? Was there anything in your upbringing that you could have predicted you would end up where you?
Speaker 1:are Honestly no. What really led me onto the path where I am right now is after I graduated from college. I thought I wanted to be a teacher and so I started working and got a job with the juvenile courts and community schools through the San Diego County Office of Education. And I was working up in North County because I lived in Escondido, that's where I grew up, and I was working out of their site in North County in San Marcos, and I got a teaching position with a program which was a residential facility for children who had been removed from their parents' care and custody by child welfare services because of allegations of abuse, neglect, things of that nature.
Speaker 1:So they were in this residential care facility, they lived there and they had me come in on a regular basis, on a daily basis to teach in the morning. So I taught the kids from 8 o'clock to 1 o'clock every day and there were probation officers who were housed at that facility. The children's attorneys came in to see them and speak to them to prepare them for court cases. That was my first real exposure to the criminal justice system, to our legal system here in San Diego, how it related to juveniles and what these victims went through when they were going through the system. These were all children who were in the dependency system, which is through child welfare services, because they've been victims of crime, victims of neglect, victims of abuse. This was not what was then known as the delinquency system, where there were-.
Speaker 1:Punitive, Punitive correct Minors who were under 18, who had committed crimes and therefore they were in that system. There was also a component of the juvenile court and community schools that I also worked in which gave me a different perspective about our criminal justice system. So it was really that exposure that got me interested in law and going to law school and shifted my focus a little bit from thinking maybe I didn't want to be a teacher and maybe this is something I wanted to do because it seemed fascinating and really interesting.
Speaker 2:It's interesting to think about that. Pull into law? I think a lot of people at least, maybe and this is maybe just a caricature, but people go. Oh, I wanted to go into law because I grew up watching Law and Order and thinking I'd be in courtrooms all the time or I'd be a corporate lawyer making all this money. But you actually, it seems like you were pulled in from the service end the advocating and protecting vulnerable populations, and talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 1:You know, it was interesting because you see these children and whether they were the children that I had contact with who were in the dependency they were the children that I had contact with who were in the dependency system, or the children that I had contact with who were in the what is now known as the juvenile justice side of it, who are facing criminal charges.
Speaker 1:One of the things that became apparent to me was that, unfortunately, what was completely missing in their lives, their upbringing that had led them to this point, whether they were five or whether they were 17, was a lack of support, a lack of family, a lack of guidance, a lack of responsible, stable adults in their lives who could provide them with that guidance that they so desperately needed. And what was interesting about that legal system and our juvenile justice system is that it's not it's rehabilitative, not punitive. There is a punitive measure to it, because part of the rehabilitation comes with realizing what you might lose in order to try to realize what changes you need to make moving forward. But it was that aspect of it that was really very appealing to me and, yes, from a service point of view, but also from a point of view of serving our community, trying to make sure that we could do what we can to both, that I could do what I could to both protect victims, keep the community safe and make sure that these children had opportunities moving forward.
Speaker 2:How does one maintain a sense of hope and optimism and I think this question could probably apply to your current role as a judge as well, dealing with stories that probably, I'd imagine, often are pretty tragic. Right, You're not really called in as a whether you're on the prosecutorial end of things or you are a judge. You're not really dealing with people in happy situations. How do you get up every day and be cheerful and positive and hopeful?
Speaker 1:So you have to realize and some people do realize this to a much greater degree, some people don't we are dealing with, thankfully, a very small fraction of our society and our community as a whole. Now you're dealing with a small fraction that unfortunately sometimes does very, very bad things, things that are very traumatic to other individuals, things that hurt other individuals. But you also, as a prosecutor, as a defense attorney, as a judge, you've made a choice and a decision to work in that field, for whatever your reasons might be. My decision to work as a prosecutor and work with the DA's office was to represent victims, protect the community and try to make sure that things like this didn't happen on a recurring basis. Hold individuals accountable, provide the individuals who needed rehabilitation or who we could contact in the criminal justice system early enough, got the help they needed to hopefully divert them from the path that they were heading on.
Speaker 1:So there's that aspect of it where you're going into that with a purpose, understanding that you are going to be exposed to a lot that is traumatic, that, even if you believe you're not being affected by it, you are, and I saw that in myself, I saw that in my colleagues, where you're a little more irritable at times.
Speaker 1:You're a little less likely to speak to your spouse or your children when you get home about certain things. So those things, that secondary level of trauma is definitely there, and you need to figure out how you're going to deal with that, because if you don't, you're not going to be able to sustain yourself on the path you're on, and then the path you're on is not going to be as effective as you want it to be. And so I made a conscious choice to get into the line of work that I wanted to do. And so then it's also very important to start making conscious decisions, or to make conscious decisions to understand how to keep yourself on that path in a healthy manner, because if you're not on that path in a healthy manner, you're not helping yourself, your family, your community or the individuals that you're representing, whether that's victims of crime or defendants as a member of the public defender's office or the defense bar. So I think that perspective becomes really, really important.
Speaker 2:So I think that perspective becomes really, really important. You know there have been countless shows about lawyers and judges and reality TV, court TV, and you know from I think my earliest memories are probably the OJ trial and I'm going to judge Ito, I think in his running shoes, and the whole thing. And so we have these.
Speaker 2:The media tends to create caricatures, right, we don't need to talk about current cases that are happening. They're getting international attention. But you know, judges can be seen in a certain light but it's certainly not three-dimensional, right? Media is not really good about showing three dimensions on any profession. Media is not really good about showing three dimensions on any profession. Um, can you kind of fill out for us some of that third dimension of what it means to to work in your profession, what your job looks like on a daily basis? You know we go in most of the time our exposure to the court is as a juror, uh, and then you they say, oh, we're gonna break for two hours for lunch and you're, you could just go out and go to Chipotle. But you're like, well, what's the judge doing? Are they taking a nap in there? I know that's not the reality. What does a day in the life of a judge in your situation.
Speaker 1:Look like you know so the perspective a lot of times is and attorneys have this perspective when you're looking at judges on the bench thinking all they do is sit up there, listen to what's being said and throw out a decision, whether or not they know what they're talking about. And you joke about that as an attorney, especially when you come back from court and you're frustrated at a ruling one way or the other, one way or the other. The reality of it is, and it's a pretty transparent job for the most part, because what you are doing at the end of the day is you are paid to make decisions right, and I tell this to litigants who are in my courtroom all the time. I tell them I'm going to make a decision in this case because that's what I'm here for. That's why you've come into this courtroom, because party A and party B, you couldn't agree on something, and so you're here to give me the facts and let me rule and make a decision based on what the evidence is. What that inevitably means is that one of you is going to walk out of here less satisfied than the other individual because you're not going to get everything that you want, and so it makes a lot more sense for the two of you, if possible, to try and talk about things, come to an agreement, because then both of you have some control over the situation.
Speaker 1:I say that because, in order for me to make that decision on a case, there is a lot of work that goes into it. There's a lot of preparation, research, reading time. When I started as a family law judge I had now this is overall on my courtroom docket. I have close to 7,000 cases that are assigned just to my courtroom. Now I don't see those every day, obviously, I don't even see those every year, but I see anywhere from one to 25 of those cases on a daily basis, depending on what kind of hearing I'm holding that day. And so what that means is there's a lot of prep work that goes into it. There's a lot of reading that goes into it.
Speaker 1:Initially, I spent four or five hours on a nightly basis prepping for the next day, because I'd be in court from 8.30 in the morning till 4.30 in the afternoon. I'd get done with court and then I had a full day's worth of cases the next day to prepare for, and the only time you really have to do that is after work, and so, yes, it is decision-making, it is judging cases, but the day-to-day aspect of that, depending on where you are as a judge, is very different from what the perception is for members of the public when in the courtroom and they give me a 20-minute argument on their side. The other side gives me a 20-minute argument and then, as soon as they're done, I have a ruling that I'm making, and I know a lot of times people look at me and they go well, you didn't even listen to anything I said, because you just heard 20 minutes worth of an argument and you're making a decision off the bat.
Speaker 1:Well, that is a product of reading what their declarations were, what their written submissions were, what the law is in the case, what the history is in the case, and then coming up with what I feel is what I want to do in a case or what I think I'm going to need to do in a case, and then listening to the litigants, assimilating that and then being able to provide them with a ruling. One of the things that becomes really important is making sure that you are providing rulings on your cases in a timely manner. You don't want to be keeping litigants waiting for weeks and months for a resolution on a matter that's really important, and you can't realistically do that either for yourself, because you're just going to backlog everything that you have in your chambers. So I think that's one of the most misconceived aspects of what we do. It might seem glamorous they make it seem glamorous where the attorneys are doing all the work and you're just banging that little hammer and that's it, and then you walk off the bench and that's not what the reality is.
Speaker 2:I mean when the other people are at Chipotle. You're taking those two hours. You're probably eating at your desk doing the reading for what's happening at two in the afternoon.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know there's a lot of what happens behind the scenes in a courtroom as well that when you're a juror you don't realize and you're not always privy to. There is a lot that happens as far as preparation goes. That can't happen necessarily before a case. The lawyers are doing a lot of work as the case is going along and, yes, for us the lunch hour is from noon to 1.30, and that's a little bit longer than a lot of people might be used to, but those gel with court hours.
Speaker 1:But yet most of the time on my daily basis, I'm in court from 8.30 to noon. I will then go back to my chambers and I will work on my afternoon calendar, which starts at 1.30 and goes through 4.30. I've already preliminarily prepped for it a few days before, but I make sure there's been no new filings, I make sure there's been no new updated information so that I can be on the ball for every case that's happening and starting at 1.30. So, yes, it might seem like there are long breaks when you're a juror. There are lulls in the proceeding. Why am I here missing an extra day of work when you're making me sit around for three or four hours? But there is a lot that does happen behind the scenes.
Speaker 2:Do you think there's a role for or maybe there is a role already that's starting to permeate the profession a role for AI in some processing of information? I know in my profession and I've said it many times on this podcast I use ai all the time, right? If I need to analyze a data set, I can do with the old-fashioned way. I can have ai, pull out patterns, and then I can use my executive functioning skills on certain pieces, right? Do you think that's going to come into the legal profession?
Speaker 2:so there's already been a misuse of AI in the legal profession, so it did come in. It absolutely has, unfortunately.
Speaker 1:Unfortunately, when we've had filings on legal briefings that are just completely generated by AI, Like they're not factual, they're case laws incorrect, cited incorrectly and when we've given these briefs.
Speaker 1:So we get briefs from attorneys a lot of times we'll give them to our research attorneys to just check a couple things Spot check it, Spot check it or even just to clarify an issue or two that where there are two different sets of cases that have been provided by attorneys that clash with each other and we've had them come back as well this case either doesn't exist or this case doesn't stand for what it's been cited for, and so that has been a serious issue. I definitely think there is a use for it outside the courtroom setting for legal research, for clarifying points, for trying to establish certain issues, patterns, things like that, as you mentioned. But the problem is that it's being used for I have this issue write me a legal brief on how to not pay child support because of X, or how to you know how to do something because of Y, and then you get a brief generated and that's just being submitted under an attorney's name, and that has happened.
Speaker 2:We could probably do a whole episode just on that. Absolutely Pain and suffering of AI.
Speaker 1:And you know it's funny just a little bit of a segue, but there was this issue at my daughter's school recently, as it related to AI, where there were a group of kids who had submitted statements in support of their candidacy for a certain position, and then it turned out that, well, one of the kids got accused of generating their entire speech through AI because someone put it through an AI checker and it came back as 98% this speech has been written by AI.
Speaker 1:Well, then you put it through another checker and it comes back as this speech was written by a human Another checker 28% of the speech was written by AI, and so there's no definitive way to accurately check, because you run the same speech through 10 different checkers and you get 10 different answers. And so I think that cautionary tale also is something that needs to bear out, because it's very easy to accuse another party of using AI or generating something that's not their own work without the ability to completely, 100%, factually check that. So that's why I'm a little wary of AI, and while it definitely has its pluses and its benefits, I think right now it's in its infancy stages and, just like everything, else it's going through growing pains.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, if we can imagine, 50 years ago, your job would have been stacks of books. Right, that's it, books and files. And you know. And so obviously now attorneys, everybody uses I don't know Nexus or whatever. There's everything's computerized right. And so probably at the at the dawn of that, people said, oh, don't know, nexus or whatever, everything's computerized right. And so probably at the dawn of that, people said, oh, this is, we really can't. This isn't the same as looking it up in a book.
Speaker 2:And eventually the systems get refined and stress tested Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So when I was in law school, we were actually still doing book research because Westlaw and Lexis had just come into being, and so there was still this perception when I started practicing that no, don't rely just on the results in the computer, you better go double check those with what's in the books, because you can't fully rely on what's there. Now obviously no one really does research from books anymore or fax checks cases with books anymore, and so that's become an accepted method of research and use in our legal community and maybe AI will get there eventually. But yes, it's still going through that process and that potential for misuse is unfortunately still there.
Speaker 2:The temptation to take shortcuts. As a human, a human failing always, always.
Speaker 2:I want to pivot a little bit to the process of transitioning from being a prosecutor to being elected a judge and being a politician. Right, I know you don't see yourself as a politician, probably, and your position is nonpartisan, but there's an election piece and you need votes and you need endorsements, and so talk to us a little bit about that process, how that was for you and how you were able to maintain your focus on the service side and not the career politician side.
Speaker 1:So it was one of the strangest processes that I've ever been through and it was a very, very interesting step outside my comfort zone Because as a prosecutor, I was used to being in front of individuals, in front of juries, talking to people.
Speaker 1:That aspect of it was not problematic at all. But I was also very private as an individual because of my job, because of what I was dealing with. Safety and security issues were something that I dealt with as a prosecutor, so putting myself out there in in front of the public wasn't something that I did on a regular basis. So pivoting to that and having to do that and I did that on a daily basis twice, sometimes three times a day morning, lunch hour and after work, um, meeting with community organizations, meeting with individuals giving speeches, talking about why I was running for judge was something that was an intense process. It was a time-consuming process.
Speaker 1:Asking people for money was the most uncomfortable thing I've ever done, but it was also a very fascinating process to go through. But it was also a very fascinating process to go through. One of the things that is different from running a campaign for judge compared to running a campaign forback, but it's also you complying with your ethical obligations is you cannot speak to any political issues. You can't comment on any political issues that you may be called to preside over when you're a judge.
Speaker 2:That's a relief. It is a huge relief.
Speaker 1:Right, it's a huge relief. And people also conflate a state court judge's position and the types of issues you are dealing with. And when you say you're running for judge, people automatically think Supreme Court and so they will ask you about hot-button issues and they'll want you well. What's your position on gun control? What's your position?
Speaker 2:Immigration Right, so you get all of those.
Speaker 1:And you can't really comment on that. You can't really well, you can't comment on that. But they don't understand that. They also don't understand that you're really never going to be dealing with those interactions with individuals who told me well, if you're not going to tell me what your position on X is, I'm not voting for you. And I said I understand that. But you understand, I'm running to be a judge who is swearing to uphold the highest ethical standards of our society if I'm elected to the position. Do you really want to vote for a judge who's going to violate those ethics just to get there? So you know. But that was an interesting conversation I had with a lot of people because of that. But the campaign process was an interesting one to go through and I'm sorry if I missed a follow-up question.
Speaker 2:No, no, that's I yeah, just that whole reflection on having dip your foot into the political river, um and I think you answered it with an appropriate, nuanced answer of you dipped your foot in, but you also had that fallback of being able to say, like I can't comment on, I don't know how to handle homelessness in San Diego.
Speaker 1:And you know it's funny because you asked about endorsements. So that was one of the things, especially when you're running for judge people don't know who you are. They've never really heard of you before. Your name is pretty low on the ballot. It's down ballot.
Speaker 1:One of the most common questions I got in as attorney is people calling me up and going, hey, who should I vote for for judge? Because people don't really know much about you. You can't really say much about yourself and your political position, so that's something that doesn't really let you get exposed that much. So one of the ways you do that is by getting endorsements, because you go to the San Diego Police Department and they endorse you and so they put your name out. And so then people who look on law enforcement favorably or who think of a certain mindset, then they go hey, look, if the San Diego Police Department endorsed him, then he must be a guy who thinks like me and so I'll vote for him.
Speaker 1:But you have to make sure that you're not one-sided in those endorsements, not only because you want to reach as many voters as possible, but you want to make sure that you are on an equal playing field, so you're not giving off a bias, either as a candidate, because that doesn't mean simply because someone endorsed you that you're going to vote in a certain way in the future when that organization, individual or group of people is before you, and so you want to make sure that's very clear but you also don't want to give off that perception.
Speaker 1:So I made sure that I got endorsements, or tried to get endorsements, from all across the political spectrum, the social spectrum. I was very fortunate because almost every single one of what are known as the minority bar organizations and associations in San Diego County endorsed me, and so that kind of levels out the playing field where I had people from the defense bar endorse me public defenders who endorsed me, das who endorsed me, law enforcement who endorsed me so that just projects that aura that this individual is fair and impartial. There's people from across all walks of life who are willing to put their name behind his, and so, yes, while he may not be able to tell you what X, y or Z is or what he would do in a situation, by looking at who's supporting him, that gives you a little, a much better idea of who he is, and so that became really important to reach out to make sure you got those endorsements and they became integral in my ability to eventually be successful with my campaign.
Speaker 2:And I'd also imagine it's a testament to your track record of fairness and dependability and civility, just in your previous work, right? I mean, as you say, they're winners and losers once you get into the courtroom, but there are many different ways to handle winning and losing. They're spiking the ball in the end zone, they're kicking a hole in the side of the stadium when you lose, and I'd imagine that the way that you interacted with people as a prosecutor and treated people well and with respect played into getting endorsements across the spectrum when you got to that point.
Speaker 1:I would hope so and I would like to think that I mean as a prosecutor. It was never about winning Right, and because that's not what your goal was.
Speaker 1:Your goal was to do justice.
Speaker 1:Yes, winning a trial if the case went to trial was that step towards doing justice.
Speaker 1:But how you got there absolutely was the most important thing, because you have to remember, as a prosecutor, as a defense attorney, you're working with these individuals for the next 20, 30 years of your life your entire career perhaps and trust, respect for the other side, for the other person, is of the ultimate and utmost importance. Knowing that when someone walks up to you a defense attorney walks up to you and tells you something, and because of your track record with that person, you implicitly trust them, is huge and it makes all the difference in the world in a working relationship with the other side. So that is how I tried to conduct myself throughout most of my career to conduct myself throughout most of my career. I won't say that I was unfailingly successful with it. Of course we're all human and so there are situations in which your emotions do get the better of you at certain times. But to say otherwise would be me being untruthful to myself. But I think overall I did succeed in that endeavor overall, I did succeed in that endeavor.
Speaker 2:So you mentioned minority bar organizations and, if I'm not mistaken, you're the first South Asian American judge to be elected to this position.
Speaker 1:Is that right In San Diego County? Yes, so I'm the first South Asian judge in San Diego County history.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And elected or appointed. Ah okay, so that was something that was interesting, was a notable accomplishment, something I was very proud of, something my parents were very proud of, and it's also interesting because we have a pretty substantial South Asian population here in San Diego. I was going to say surprising.
Speaker 2:Not surprising that you were elected, but surprising that it's been this long right.
Speaker 1:That it's been this long, and it's interesting. It's funny because not only was I the first South Asian Indian judge on the bench in San Diego, I was only the second judge, male judge of Asian descent on the bench in san diego. So there's another judge judge so, who just recently retired, who is an asian male, who was a judge, and he was appointed 30 years ago and after that there have been no asian males appointed um to the san diego superior court bench after Judge so so I was the second one, so I'm the second most senior Asian male judge on the bench, which is interesting and also a little concerning.
Speaker 2:Concerning. Wow, you got some good stuff for your LinkedIn page Exactly Right. Yeah, Right, you think about a county of several million people. Yeah, exactly Right, you think about a county of several million people. And you know, as you say, even just focusing on India, the diaspora really and you know San Diego County now has a large Indian population Hopefully you've broken some barriers and hopefully kind of opened up opportunities and example for other people.
Speaker 1:And after I was elected there have been several other males, who Asian, who have been appointed by the governor, and so now we do have a much larger group, but it took a while apparently talk to us a little bit about the challenges of COVID.
Speaker 2:Going beyond the logistical pieces of, you know, things having to be either on zoom or maybe canceled, Thinking about the human side, and you deal with family court and it's 100% human. How did things function? And again, you were at the beginning of your judgeship during the pandemic. How was that?
Speaker 1:You know it's interesting because if there ever was a silver lining to the pandemic, this was. I think one of the brightest silver linings is that it forced us as a court system to adapt. And there is a very personal side to court. When people are in person, they're sitting in front of you, you're sitting there, being able to see them and tangibly evaluate them, who they are, their testimony, their credibility. But one of the things that COVID did for our litigants and our court system as a whole was just infinitely broadened the access to justice, because it provided people with the ability to access our courtrooms who otherwise didn't necessarily or wouldn't necessarily have the means or the ability to access our courtrooms, who otherwise didn't necessarily or wouldn't necessarily have the means or the ability to do so. And what I mean by that is, for example, one of the big issues during COVID was landlord-tenant issues, rental issues, housing issues. In San Diego we have one courtroom that handles what are known as unlawful detainers, which is landlord-tenant disputes, and that courtroom is downtown in central San Diego and prior to COVID, regardless of where you lived around the county, if you had a landlord-tenant dispute, you had to travel to downtown San Diego to have your case heard by a judge. You're coming from North County, vista, oceanside, you're coming from South Bay at eight in the morning, when your hearing's at 8.30 and you have to battle the traffic on the 805, you're coming downtown to deal with that. And so what COVID did was it forced the court to go online. It forced the court to go on to a virtual type of hearing, which expanded these individuals' ability and the ease with which they could access the court system infinitely. So when I first started as a judge you're right, it was right in the middle of COVID I was assigned to small claims, and so three of my colleagues and I were assigned to the small claims division because there was a backlog of 6,000 to 7,000 small claims cases that had accumulated just since the pandemic had started, and so they put us in there to try to clear out that backlog.
Speaker 1:And what we do need to remember is, during the pandemic, a lot of people left their place of work or where they lived for work, to go back home, to go back to stay with family, parents, somewhere where they could have a home, because they didn't have a job or they were out of a job or they had reduced work expenses. So we had people appear in our courtrooms from all over the country. I had individuals who appeared in my courtroom from Thailand. I had an individual who appeared in my courtroom from Iraq on a small claims case. They never would have had the ability to make that appearance. Their case would have been dismissed. There would have been finding against them if they weren't able to appear virtually. So that aspect of it greatly, greatly changed during the pandemic. There was a negative side to it as well. There were some interesting things that happened on virtual court appearances. We've all seen the meme where I'm not a cat judge or I'm not really a
Speaker 1:cat judge. There was the doctor who appeared in court to fight a speeding ticket while in the operating room, and so I had nothing as drastic as that. But there were certainly interesting moments where and I will say, having to wear a mask at that time was a benefit, because it masked emotions because of what you were seeing on camera. So if there ever was a silver lining, that was certainly it. But you lost a lot as well in the personal aspect of the courtroom. You lost a lot in being able to judge the credibility of those individuals before you, because a lot of times individuals would appear either telephonically through our Microsoft team system, or they would appear via video, but they'd have their camera off and we weren't instructing people to turn their cameras on for a number of reasons and so Like. I'm in the operating room exactly.
Speaker 1:But then you also lost a lot of ability to really be able to gauge that individual for who they were, rather than just listen to words over a system.
Speaker 2:And has it returned to 100% in person or have they maintained a hybrid? They've maintained a hybrid.
Speaker 1:And that is something that the state of California and the judicial council has mandated. Because of that access to justice, peace Now, not in criminal court. There are very, very few exceptions in criminal courts where a remote appearance is allowed, but in family court, in small claims, in other areas, they do still allow virtual appearances. It's up to the discretion of the judge and so, for the most part, on initial appearances, when it's the first time a case is in front of me, I will have individuals appear in court and then, if the matter's continued or if it's set for another hearing depending on what type of hearing it's set for I will either allow them to appear virtually or order them to be personally present in court.
Speaker 2:We found that in our case here and working in education that mostly with we run parent university sessions in the evenings and have dozens and dozens of offerings and in person prior to COVID, we might get four or five people.
Speaker 2:With everything going virtual we would get dozens, and now, after COVID, we're getting four or five people in person and dozens still remotely right and yeah, once in a while you'll see someone on the phone, with their audio off, watching the session and you can tell they're working in a restaurant and they're on their break, and you know that's just how it's going to be they're participating.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and and there's a. It's funny because now when you get a meeting invite from your children's school or something else and there's not a virtual option tied to it, there's a little bit of annoyance. Why isn't there a virtual option tied to it so I can just do this remotely or just view it from a remote location? So I think that's a reality and kind of a fact of life. So I think that was one of the best benefits for our court system through the COVID pandemic.
Speaker 2:You've been very generous with your time and I want to honor that. I know you're at the end of a long work day. I just have a couple more more questions. How do you think K-12 schools can prepare students for a career like yours?
Speaker 1:So, as it comes to schools, I think one of the things that is really important for our communities and our teachers is that guidance for students, to make them understand that education doesn't end 12th grade. Right, and there's, but there are a lot of factors that go into that type of guidance as well that, unfortunately, is not a reality for every single student who goes through our school system, for a number of reasons social factors, socioeconomic factors, family factors that sometimes don't allow that to happen. But I think, putting the importance on education because the only way you get to any position in life is through some sort of education Now there's this whole. You can be successful without going to college and yes, there are a lot of people who have become successful in a lot of different ways who have not gone to college. But I still think there are a very small percentage overall of the individuals who have meaningful lives and careers and contribute to society and give back to society in the way society is given to them. And yes, there's those strike it rich situations that happen.
Speaker 1:But I think that foundation of education and making children realize that, as you're going through this process, school doesn't end at 12th grade, that there are steps you take from there and that process and ingraining that into children very early, I think, becomes really important. I think it's also important for the family to be invested in the children's education, because you see that so often where the parents, because of the circumstances they grew up under, did not have education valued in their house, unfortunately, under did not have education valued in their house, unfortunately, and so they pass that along to their children and the focus becomes a lot more on the children working when they're 16, getting a job when they're 16, helping to support the family because of the family's financial constraints, which are all unfortunate realities for so many people. But I think, once again, there's a balance there and putting that focus back on that education piece is extremely important.
Speaker 2:And I'd be remiss if I didn't mention how we met originally, which was when you were serving on the board as a volunteer at Albert Einstein Academies, and I know that education's been near and dear to your heart. Just in giving back to the community, talk a little bit about critical thinking and the importance of I mean. We've talked about decision-making, we've talked about balanced perspective. We've talked about integrity. We've talked about treating people with kindness and fairness. What can schools do in those areas?
Speaker 1:And sorry to clarify this in the areas of Well to prepare students right.
Speaker 2:So not every student's going to go on to become a judge. There aren't many of you, it's just a numbers thing, right. But in terms of inculcating the qualities that you embody in the way that you are in the world and the person you are, what can schools do to prepare our students for that right? I mean, ideally we're preparing students so that they don't end up on the inside of a courtroom.
Speaker 1:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:If we're doing our job perfectly, then your job looks very different, correct?
Speaker 1:It does, and that's a great question and, I think, a great point because book learning is not everything and book learning is a small part of what children go through in school. There's social exposure, there's social interaction, there's learning how to be an individual, learning how to be a member of society, learning how to be a member of a group, and so I think all of those attributes that we teach our children through our school system become vastly important. The humanity piece of students, of a child, of teaching, compassion of teaching, that aspect of growth, I think is far more valuable than almost any book learning that a child can do Because that book wrote. Learning is something that can be done robotically.
Speaker 2:AI, aiically, ai AI. Correct, exactly, just check it.
Speaker 1:And realistically, if you think about it and go back to when we were in school and you had to memorize 15 formulas for a math test that you were doing the next day, right? I don't remember a single one of those to this day, going back to law school and all the cases I had to memorize. I don't remember most of what those cases stood for, and today, if I need to access one of those cases, I will look it up, read it and then use it. Right? But the other foundations that you're building for the children through school, alongside this book learning, are just, they cannot be understated at all. And you're building students so that they can go out in the world and succeed, not just as academics or professionals, but as human beings, because that's what makes the foundation of a successful society is having these children.
Speaker 1:And this is one of Einstein's maxims, you know building leaders of tomorrow. And so you're taking your students from today to build them into leaders tomorrow. And how do you do that? You do that by shaping good people. Not by shaping good academics or good book learners, but by shaping good people. And I think you cannot underscore that enough, think you cannot underscore that enough, and I think the schools that do that most successfully have communities in which the students feel safe, they feel secure, they feel that they can share things that are happening, because we know a lot of times children are coming to school for a sanctuary when their home lives provide them with a lot of turmoil. They have teachers they can rely on, they have teachers they can connect with, they have teachers they can speak with and knowing I think this is also very important for students knowing that they have someone they can turn to, a support person or role model, becomes integral in their growth as well becomes integral in their growth as well.
Speaker 2:What advice would your current self somewhere between early middle age and we don't need to ask age, I'm past middle age, so I can say that what advice would your current self give to your? You said you were 10 when you came 12., 12. So middle school, your middle school self, just about life, about the future.
Speaker 1:One of the things that is it seems cliche, but I think it cannot be understated is doing what you love.
Speaker 1:And what I mean by that is it's not when you're 12, when you're 15, when you're 18, you don't know what you're going to love. You don't know what you're going to be when you grow up. You sacrifice a lot sometimes to balance that happiness and doing what you love with being able to have a job, have a career, provide for your family and all of those things. But finding that balance is the key to a successful and happy life is the key to a successful and happy life. And when I was younger, when I first thought about law school and yes, we talked about why I became interested in law but there was that moment where I thought about well, what about corporate law? What about making a lot of money and being successful and all of that? And that just became a situation in which you had to make a choice where you could either go into public service and you knew you were going to do well and you'd be happy and comfortable or-.
Speaker 2:Billable hours or billable hours right.
Speaker 1:And I'm so glad I've never billed a single hour in my life Six minute life increments, right, exactly. And so those are choices you make, and so if I you know, giving advice to a 12 year old me, I'm glad I turned out on the path that I did and I followed it kind of organically and naturally. But I think that's very important is to follow your dreams and do what makes you happy. I think the other part of it and I tell this to young students, law students that I mentor, who come to me to ask me for mentorship or advice not that I have all the sage wisdom to give them, but San Diego is a really, really small legal community and I'm assuming it's probably a very small community in other pockets as well. The academic community, the legal community, is tiny, the medical community is probably a little bit bigger, but everyone knows everyone in San Diego, despite the fact that we're a huge city, and so first impressions cannot be undone.
Speaker 1:And they are what will lead you down a certain path or not. And so, when it goes back to that being kind, being gentle, being compassionate, I think that face you put forward the first time you meet someone, that impression you make the first time you meet someone, and you never know who you meet, who's going to influence you or who's going to have an impact on you or who's going to have a determinative voice in where you end up. And so making sure that you put that best foot forward from the very first day I think is also another piece of advice that I would give young students, give a young me moving forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this concept of never burning bridges.
Speaker 1:Right. There's never any good that's ever come from doing that. I don't believe, At least none that I've ever experienced.
Speaker 2:My last question is a hypothetical. You have the opportunity to design a billboard for the side of the I'm going to call it the eight freeway here in East County. You're probably driving on the eight at some point. So a big freeway. What does your billboard say to the world about your beliefs, about, about just your view of life? Remember billboards.
Speaker 1:So we're driving by fast. So it's interesting because I did have five billboards around San Diego County when I was running for judge.
Speaker 2:Oh, look at that, so you're up in the game.
Speaker 1:And so my campaign slogan when I was running for judge was integrity, experience and justice for all.
Speaker 1:And I chose those, those words and phrases, because I think they embody who I am and what I hope to always, since the day I became, since the day I graduated college and I wanted to become a teacher and then I went to law school what I hoped to give back to my community and I think, on a professional level, that's still what I would hope my billboard would say, because I think those three things really embody who I am as an individual, what I have contributed to society and what I hope to contribute to society for a very long time.
Speaker 1:On a more personal level, family is one of the most important things in the world to me, because it is who I am. Family has allowed me to become what I am. I hope that I am a good husband. I hope that I am a good father. I know that I am not always a superlative of everything that you want to be, but I think that that would also be something that would be on a billboard, which would reflect how important family is to me and what it means to me and why, because of family, I am where I am today Because without that, without my parents doing what they did to bring us over here, without the support of my wife, without my kids to be able to Keep me humble, keep me humble.
Speaker 1:With two teenage daughters, absolutely. But keep me humble, keep me grounded, keep me motivated. On so many different levels I'd be in a very different position than where I am today, and so I feel very fortunate with that as well.
Speaker 2:The great thing about kids is they are not interested in formalities or honorifics with their parents. They are certainly not, and they will tell you that they're not interested in that. Yes, they absolutely will. It's a good balance. I really want to thank you for your time, for your wisdom and for your reflections and your honesty today. It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 1:It's been my pleasure and thank you for having me. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to the superintendent's hangout. You can follow me on Twitter at DVS1970. Please be sure to share this show with friends and family on social media and in the real world. Thank you to Brad Backeal for editing and production assistance and to Tina Royster for scheduling and logistics. Thanks for hanging out and have a great day.