The Hangout
We talk with interesting people. Come on in and hang out!
The Hangout
#73 Ben Frahm, Screenwriter and Professor
In this episode, we hear from Ben Frahm, a screenwriter and professor at Syracuse University (who also happens to be David's cousin). Listen to learn more about Ben's experience in the world of screenwriting and the practical and theoretical knowledge that guides his own work and that of his students.
He went to the principal and I don't know. They're like oh, dude, you're old, don't do this. And then he listened to him and then he didn't do that. Where I say Raymond's law is dude, keep asking. Nobody knows what the hell they're doing out there.
Speaker 2:Nobody knows what the hell they're doing out there In this episode I was privileged to sit down virtually with Benjamin Frame. Ben also happens to be my cousin, so we reminisced about growing up and kind of some memories from that. Ben began his professional career selling the script Doctor Sensitive to Universal Studios with director Tom Shadiac attached, and he served as a story consultant on the critically acclaimed film how to Train your Dragon, which is DreamWorks animation production. That certainly does not define him. We talk about his work with the Save the Cat paradigm for identifying beats in screenplays and about an upcoming book that Ben's working on, his work as a professor at Syracuse University, his own personal journey through academia and about how, as we joked about, he kind of took a left turn off the freeway at the start of his undergrad when he originally thought that he was going to become a doctor and then had kind of a change of heart and a change of mind and a change of approach.
Speaker 2:Ben and I had some laughs. We talked about what makes a story authentic, we talked about plot, we talked about narrative and much more. I thoroughly enjoyed myself. I hope that comes through in this episode and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Welcome to the Superintendent's Hangout where we discuss topics in education, charter schools, life in general, and not necessarily in that order. I'm your host, dr Shredda. Come on in and hang out. Welcome Ben, I should say Cousin Ben. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your busy schedule to join me for a little chat today.
Speaker 1:It's great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:cousin. As I know, you're now out of your professorial duties for the summer. Hopefully you're getting a little chance to relax. I see you're enjoying a nice cup of java. I wonder if you could share with our listeners my tens and tens of listeners your personal origin story as well as your professional origin story, and usually those two, for most people, are really intertwined.
Speaker 1:Sure, well, I don't know how, how much time we have and how far we want to go back.
Speaker 1:I will say this growing up you guys were like I think you guys were just old enough. It was like you guys were like the cool cousins that we would go visit and it was like it was amazing, what would we do? We would do Thanksgiving and summer and just like I have the fondest memories of kicking around Spring Valley and doing that kind of stuff. So I actually just got back from, I played golf with my buddy, charlie, yesterday and I drove by the Spring Valley exit, so maybe that's where it started. Maybe it started at the pond at Spring Valley, the threefold pond, is that?
Speaker 2:still there.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean the last time I checked on Google Earth, it like like a light bulb moment or whatever. But, um, I certainly remember like I kind of did it all backwards and I kind of tell students this I'm like, don't, don't do it like me, it's all backwards, right. Um, but I didn't, you know, coming out of high school, I was like I think I was, I was like very focused academically and almost to the point of like burning out a little. You know, it was just like and I had every intention of like wanting to to like pursue medicine and do you know, really, really dig in and do that kind of route. And I remember like in the midst of that I I was part of like the musicals in high school too and that as well, sports and like kind of a little bit of everything, and it was like it was kind of like senior, you know.
Speaker 1:It's kind of like the end of high school and kind of thinking about what was next. That I felt like I started to have this kind of like secret love affair with, with films and comedy especially. I think, like you know, I became really into like standup comedy and like I just remember, you know, trying to read scripts and like it was this thing that I had an interest in, but I was almost afraid to talk about it, and not because of like pressure, but I think it just wasn't. You know, in upstate New York it's not like, oh, I'm going to go to LA, you know, like it didn't seem to be kind of an option in some regards. So it was kind of like those two big things of like oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, like that kind of thing. It was kind of this back and forth and it wasn't until, um, it was like junior year at cornell, where andrew mittman you know andrew mittman, right, didn't he mittman?
Speaker 1:He's now producer, he produces, uh, um, he's in, is in scotland right now doing episode uh, season two. He does wednesday, that the show, wednesday. So he's hanging out with kathar-Jones, right, that's how Mipmid is. Anyway, he was on my floor in college and he comes in and he sees all these books Some of them are on my fake background right here All these secret books I had about, kind of from comedians, you know, about comedy and writing, and he's like dude and at the time I was studying human development Right and he's like dude, why don't like, why don't you take a writing class? And it was, you know, uh, he, he was studying film at Cornell Right and so it was literally he was like you should do something this summer, you know. So he had, he had recommended this like New York film Academy class class in the city, um, right in union square, and that was, that was between junior and senior year.
Speaker 1:My parents were nice, like, generous and supportive enough to be like, sure, we'll pay for you to live in the city and and you can go, go take this screenwriting class. And that was kind of like the first stab at at that. And it was actually. This was amazing, professor. She was from Columbia. I still I'm in contact with her, her name is Maggie Bruin and it was like this amazing class. I'm still buddies with the person from that class and it was just like this really fun and different experience that I hadn't had up until that point. And it was quite.
Speaker 1:That was the first workshop where I wrote the most bare bones version of the script Dr Sensitive, which, I don't know, five or six years later, found its home. You went on to sell. You went on to sell it. Yeah, it was the most skimpy you know barely there version of it, but it kind of was always like this funny concept that people responded to so um, so maybe that that happened, but um, um, but it was certainly, you know it, it didn't, it didn't. It didn't feel natural in some way, like it felt like, oh my gosh, all right, I guess I got to do something about this and kind of put it on the front burner a little bit, but I think that class really was an important thing, you know.
Speaker 2:And then at a certain point you switched coasts and up in LA, yes, and I think that's where, if I'm not mistaken, that's where you sold Dr Sensitive. That kind of started you down a road of the whole spec script world. Talk to us a little bit about that experience and what it was like to make that sale.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it was super exciting. It was like confirmation, it was affirmation. I was super exciting. It was like you know, it was like confirmation, it was affirmation. It was. You know, I was very young, it was like 25. I moved out. I kind of squatted for a year after college and Mittman and another buddy had been to LA and we were all kind of like, all right, if you guys go, then I'll go and let's go, guys go, then I'll go and let's go. So we kind of packed up ship and and went together. Um, and it was so.
Speaker 1:It was about two years of kind of like grinding away and sending, you know, query emails to managers and really kind of playing that, like you said, spec game you know, of trying to get the right, the right relationships and the right timing and also, in the meantime, kind of trying to learn how to write too, because I didn't know that, I really didn't, and so it. And then it happened and finally, after a series of different managers and relationships and things like that, it took a year of really writing, like being super intense with it. I remember at the time I was working with autistic children in a middle school in East LA. It was like a super hard job, but it let me out at 2 pm every day and I would go straight to this coffee shop on Sawtelle and just write for like five or six hours after that and I had no money to have any fun or have a social life or anything. I probably got more writing done in that time than ever, right?
Speaker 1:Um, but it worked, it happened and it uh, the script uh ultimately found, um, the support of a manager who was willing to kind of work with me for a year and kind of do like a page one, rewrite um and then attach some, uh, attach a director who was at the time had a first look deal at universal and that after months and years, finally found a home. Um, and I just remember being I remember being 25, like this it's raining money, and then it does, of course, it's not like that. So, oh dear, oh, my god, um, so then the, then the real fun began, or work began, whatever. I remember back when you yeah, you came up the next day, right, I came up because, because your parents uh came out, everybody flew out.
Speaker 2:It was big baller weekend.
Speaker 1:And did you meet Megan Markle? Were you at the party with Megan Markle?
Speaker 2:No, no, I didn't. No, I didn't. I didn't rate that high, but I, I remember. I remember I drove up and met you guys at a coffee shop or something and your parents were there and and um.
Speaker 1:And did we go to malibu?
Speaker 2:we went to malibu we went to malibu, we went to the beach and and you know, and I think your, your manager or your agent or someone had had like invited you to the hotel in bel-air or something. You didn't know why you were going, and then you showed up and they had like flutes of champagne by the pool, just like this. You know something out of a b-rate movie, really that's, that's very appropriate.
Speaker 2:That's, uh, that's kind of what it was so so you, you know, you, you make your sale, you kind of in a very kind of caricature, like stereotypical uh experience, you have this flash of success right, um, and then what happens?
Speaker 1:I mean it's, it's interesting. I look back and it's like it was both very exciting, right, and it happened at a relatively young, young, young age, right. So that's great. But I also look back and I realize I was not ready for that and I had, at the time of 25, I had this team and I had access and everybody was ready for the next thing, and I wasn't ready for the next thing. I really wasn't. I don't think I knew enough about writing. I don't think I knew enough about story, about the business.
Speaker 1:I mean, I started to learn about the business. It began this like two to three years of they're called general meetings. It's like the water bottle tour, right, and it's like you meet producers and they've read your script and they want to know what you're up to. And in some ways, question mark, you know, some ways it's a good thing because you kind of meet the town. But I think I got so swept up in that and the fun of like, oh my gosh, I'm going to, I have a drive on pass to the studio and I'm going to, I have a drive-on pass to the studio and I'm going to go meet so-and-so and he did wedding. You know, it's like I think I got swept up in that you forget the most important thing, which is to go do a good thing and create more good scripts and write. You know, like all of that I also remember I tell my students this I also remember like being on these meetings and kind of feeling out talked by some of these produce, like I felt like these producers knew more about story than I did and that's bad news, right. I mean you got to go into these rooms and you're the, you're the script, script, doctor, person and and you've. You know it's really it comes down to that, through all the different small talk and pleasantries and it's about you know, all right, what do we have? That's really good. At the end of that and I didn't, I don't think I wrote enough and I don't think I was ready for that chance I remember it was kind of at the end of a two to three year whirlwind, you know, of meetings and celebrate.
Speaker 1:You know it's all of this stuff that at the end I was like I think I need to get better and like learn more, and so I remember calling my agent and manager and being like I don't want to do any more of these meetings and I want to kind of pull back and and ended up again I did it all backwards and you shouldn't do it this way. But I ended up going back to film school. Um, it was maybe like late, late twenties. Um, um, at UCLA, which was a, which was a really great experience, um, I kind of I kind of had thought about what teaching might look like and I was like, oh, that would expose you to some things like that.
Speaker 1:And so there was kind of some hidden agenda, you know, in that, but it was mostly like I just want to learn more about what this is, and so that was a really important thing. At the time. It might have looked, you know, I think my whole team was like why, why are you doing that? Why would you go backwards? But I think, and looking back now, and especially with my own teaching stuff, it was important. It was important to do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sometimes we have to move against the current to advance in the end, or as the 90s hip hop song would say, you got to get up to get down.
Speaker 1:I like that. Tell Maya to keep that in. Maya, don't edit that out.
Speaker 2:That's our soundbite.
Speaker 1:That's the soundtrack for today.
Speaker 2:Got to get up, to get down Hip hop, artist-hop, artist. So so then, eventually, you know, you end up moving back east and it brings you to your present position at syracuse. Can you talk to us about how you, how that came about and how you blend scholarship with with a love of story, mentoring young writers but then also making sure that people understand what the business is really about? Because, as an aside, you know full disclosure. There was a time when I thought I was going to be a screenwriter. And you go to these weekend intensives, you pay money, you don't have you do these two and three minute pitch rounds, and it became evident to me only after the fact that there was no intention of having any scripts go anywhere. It was literally they you'd pay. Uh, the the low level people would come in on the weekend and sit and hear all these pitches um, they're all hung over, and then most of the scripts probably end up in the trash. Actually, they don't even get the scripts from you and then they have the low, low level assistance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cold call the list back before there was email and say, hey, so, uh, you were attended this thing. We want to really want you to send your script to us and then, yeah, that was, that was then to keep you coming back for the next time. They have a workshop, right, so that there's a lot of like, a lot, a lot of Hollywood is the promise that never gets fulfilled. How do you blend teaching about story legitimately love of story with, like, the reality of the profession?
Speaker 1:Well, I think, to begin with, I'm just incredibly honest with my students and I tell them that I have both a love and a hate of the business. It's for real, I really do, and I've had some tremendous moments and tremendous relationships and I've got to have really cool experiences. And then there's just been some awful things where I don't know if you got lied to, or that this deal didn't go through, or or, um, somebody wasn't being on. It's just there's. There's some yuckiness out there, um, and I think there's kind of like the business and then this thing under it that it's like the, the industry of like how to break in, you know, and to do all that kind of stuff, and I think you have you definitely have to be careful with that stuff um, the best thing you can do is build a really nice house. Some writer told me that no some.
Speaker 1:I had this writer zoom into my class and he said um, oh, he had this great quote. I still share it. Um, oh, I'm gonna mess it up, but let me try. He said something like um, you know, he knows so many writers in the business trying to, you know, break in and they're they're they're trying so hard to to focus on getting that foot in the door that he said something like they forget to focus on their foot or something you know, like he's, like you gotta, like you have to like those things will hopefully come, but the most important thing you can do is to figure out how to write a really good thing and then not only that, but protect it and make sure it gets to the right people.
Speaker 1:You know, so often students are like I want to do a passion piece, but I, you know, but JJ Abrams is going to make it and it's like no, he's not, you know. It's like that's not, you're not going to get a budget for that. That's best for you to go rent a camera and live in the woods and do it right, Like there's certain ways.
Speaker 1:I do say this the more that you can learn about the machine, the more that you can protect yourself from the machine. There is bizarre. We should write a book about this. There is bizarre instances of like Michael, aren't that? Dude, the little mission sunshine dude got fired from his own script, from focus features in New York and rewritten and the script died and they told him he was awful to run York. So an Albert burger. These two wonderful indie producers who found the script got it out of turnaround, financed it independently and a year later, the same script, Michael Arndt, got the Oscar. So he got fired and told he was an awful person and then he got Oscar gold.
Speaker 2:Come on.
Speaker 1:So it's my want to have my students be like oh, is that? Does that exactly what they're doing, you know, or where is where is this exact right now politically, in there, as they, you know, as they align in the studio to really know kind of the different mechanisms of of the business. And then sometimes at the end it ain't fair and sometimes it's not a meritocracy. Seriously, it's sadly. It's like oh, who we bought that because I know your agent. You know like, oh, we're going to go with that because of your team, not because of the product, and then that just feels yucky, you know, um, but I've, i've've. It's been nice to be in upstate new york and for the most part, knock on wood, be able to hide from a lot of that stuff, because I I find the classroom to be excite. I can tell the truth. I can tell the truth, I could, you know. I can say, like, well, the books say do this, but you want to know what it's really like out there. It's like this, this is what's going to happen. Um, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:I we um, a professor uh, here at Syracuse was on sabbatical a couple of years ago, so I took over his um, filled in on his creative producing class, it was. So we just created these like mock scenarios, right? And students would start the semester with a thing, with a script. They'd have to package it and find out where to send it to, and then I would just drop bombs on them and say, nope, just kidding, you know a strike is happening, or nope, that producer lost their first look deal and they don't have any. They're not going to get read anymore. Nope, you better find. You know, it was just fun to to kind of.
Speaker 2:You know, bring bring industry into the, into the classroom, like that I remember I was, as you were saying that, like focus on your foot. You know, I remember I've gone to one of these weekend screenwriting things and this guy who supposedly was an accomplished screenwriter this is kind of pre this is certainly pre-smartphone, so you couldn't google him right in the moment and see if he'd done anything who supposedly was an accomplished screenwriter this is kind of pre this is certainly pre smartphone, so you couldn't Google him right in the moment and see if he'd done anything. And he would. He talked for 20 minutes about how the what are those called the metal brads or whatever? That yeah, yeah, the brass brads, the size that it needed to be, and that you make sure that the ends weren't too long, because then when the producers read this thing they would slit their hand. And I just remember that that's from that's like 15 or more years ago. It stuck in my head and it was completely irrelevant.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It had nothing to do with the product. Right, there's a lot of noise. Yeah, yeah, it had nothing to do with the product. Right, there's a lot of noise, yeah. So, speaking of a quality product, you've become involved with the Save the Cat methodology or perspective or paradigm, and if you Google or go on Amazon and look at screenwriting books, there's hundreds of them. There's even something there's even one.
Speaker 1:It's only gonna get more with all these, uh, these, all these professors who need to tell you that's right.
Speaker 2:And there's, and there's another, there's even one called kill the dog like of all yeah, and so so you know there's from serious uh, academic uh treaties to you know, write a screenplay on a weekend, everything in between why save the cat and how did you get involved and what are you doing with that work currently?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it was. It was again kind of one of those you know, right place, right time type thing. I actually my first job, when I um, uh, would move to LA, I transfer. I was working at a Barnes and Noble in New York and I'm like, can you transfer me to LA? And so they transferred me to LA. So I was like the it was like the magazine dude or something so, um, but it was in the uh, west side pavilion on Pico, which now I think is like a Google campus or something like that. But I remember being in this Barnes Noble and some you know, uh, struggling writer, whatever, some aspiring screenwriter came in and pre-ordered this book called save the cat and I was like, what is this? And at the time I was kind of like thirsty, for, you know, I was kind of reading whatever I could get my hands on, and it was before it was even out.
Speaker 1:Um, nobody knew too much about Blake Snyder. He had had a bit of a career as a screenwriting person, um, but, um, um, this was his first attempt at a book and, um, I remember reading the book. So I ordered one for the kid and then I ordered one for me and I read it and this guy, Blake Snyder, um, put his email in it and I remember I remember emailing him and saying I enjoyed your book. It felt kind of very quick and straightforward and kind of like you know, um, here it is, you know, and these are some experiences and things like that, um. So I remember I went to a uh, so he got right back and he was like, hey, man, I'm going to a book signing and you should come. So I went to his first ever book signing thing, um, and then I asked if I could work for him and be his assistant and I would start kind of reading scripts and um, it was kind of like this first, first free um bit of of film school.
Speaker 1:You know, like this dude loved to talk about film screenplays and so I would. People would send him scripts and I would read them and we'd talk about them. He was pretty big in the high concept. That was his ballpark, not hard for. Yeah, that was his thing. And I look back and I think, particularly when I lived in LA, I wasn't writing the movies I wanted to see, which is awful, which is awful, and I wouldn't recommend let's get a little of this the last rewrite gig that I went out for before I moved back was called the fast and the furriest. I love it. Oh, baby, it was about a talking dog, I don't know.
Speaker 1:And it's like, because you have this pressure of like, you have to pay the bills you know, listen, I'm fortunately I'm in a spot now where I have a nice day job and I can. I want to write something I'm proud of, you know, and that is something that I would like to see. I think that's super important. So, anyway, totally long story. So I started kind of assisting Blake and and then, when my script sold, he invited me to be in his writer's group and that was with um, jeremy Gerlich, who did the hangover, and Dan Goldberg, who did stripes and meatballs and produced a lot of big films, and Dean DeBlois, who, uh, uh, went on to do all the how, how you train your dragons, and so we were able to consult on on that first movie, and so it was again a really important relationship and and and mentorship.
Speaker 1:Blake kind of suddenly passed away in 2009, but his, his brand continues and now has a. He now has a, through his estate, a publishing company, so they've gone on to kind of publish books that are within his IP, you know, but kind of apply it to different things like novel writing or TV writing, and I'm currently working on a version of that that I use in the classroom at Syracuse that kind of takes his feature film beats and then readjusts them, re imagines them for short film and and we kind of pose the question of like, oh my gosh, in a, in a four minute short film, do we have these beats? You know, is there structure to these shorts? It's been, it's kind of, it's kind of been fun. I'm I'm working on that now and that kind of thing. But again, the save the cat thing is lovely and has proven to be effective, I think in the classroom. But it's it's. You can't. It's not the end, all be all. You got it. There's lots more.
Speaker 1:Out there at UCLA, I remember, and I was in a workshop and this professor's just screaming at me I was writing a rom comcom and I figured out later he was going through his like fifth divorce. So I'm like, oh dude, why are you taking it out on me? But this professor was pretty amazing at like scene work and you know, like understanding the wants of characters, the doings, like the actions to support those wants and conflict, that we got to have that stuff. So, as exciting as Save the Cat can be, I think we also got to learn about the other stuff. If Save the Cat's like here, there's this other side. Go look him up.
Speaker 1:His name is Mike Lee, the famous director. Right, have you heard of him? Um, one of his actors came to a workshop that I was teaching in new york like years ago, and he's like, do you know what this guy does? And I'm like, no, tell me. And mike lee the director guy, he had like a school of school in london or something. Um, he sits in a dark room with his assistant and he invites like hundreds of actors to come in and start kind of auditing and talking about the people in their lives, right, and like, oh, I got you know my mailman. He's whistling Christmas music the whole year. That's weird.
Speaker 1:And so Mike Lee starts collecting these stories of people, right, that are based in reality, right, and his assistant writes them down and I guess this goes on for months, right. And then he starts plucking different characters and invites these actors back, but he says oh, dave, I want you to come as your mailman. The guy whistles Christmas music. Come on, you're going to come do a scene. And he starts creating situation and context and they start improv-ing and through these improvisational games he starts to create narrative. I mean, dude, that is, as I'm not that smart, but that is as raw character driven as possible, like that's amazing, all these things and start picking. You know picking, picking kind of where, where you want to be, where your process is, where your voice is in any of that, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think it's also the fact that multiple truths can live at the same time and multiple approaches. It's a little bit like baseball players you and I are baseball fans and you hear about some hitters who as soon as they're done with their at-bat, they go into the clubhouse to analyze it and they're looking at all the data and everything. Then you see another guy and he's hitting like 380. Like what are you doing? He goes. I just hit the ball. I see the ball.
Speaker 1:I hit the ball.
Speaker 2:And I try to hit it where there's no one else.
Speaker 1:It's so true, and it's like you know, there are these purists. My student, one of my students this semester, won this like alumni trip I don't know something at Syracuse. So they got to go meet the screenwriter Eric Roth in LA right, he's the guy that did Forrest Gump and Munich, and like it's just an amazing writer, right, and he doesn't believe in structures, but like he's very minimal with that. But if you look at his history, he's he's studied the whole stuff. You know he studied it for a year and then you kind of throw it out the window.
Speaker 1:So I think I do remember being in film school and a writer saying, like good scripts and good stories are written with our big muscles right, you know the feeling muscles and the gut muscles, and not, you know, we're not sitting there and being like, oh, does this seem thematic enough? You know, am I on page 12 and I you? There's really interesting examples of this. I was watching the um. I think it's like a hbo documentary, so like they were interviewing arthur miller and he like built himself a shed in his backyard and like hid away for two days and wrote death of a salesman and he was going to bed at night and he's like he didn't have a voice because he was yelling the lines and he was like crying and I'm like dude, that's hardcore. Like it was a visceral, it was a, it was an emotional experience, right it's like stephen king.
Speaker 2:You know one of my favorite books on writing right and you know he talks about books on writing right and you know he talks about they were living in a trailer and he's like he goes into the washing machine room or what a laundry room and he's got a piece of wood across his lap and I and you know I think he was also uh definitely uh chemically influenced at that time. Like there's whole books that he wrote he didn't even remember yeah like and it's.
Speaker 1:It's like. You know, this arthur miller is like I finished this thing in eight, I said he's like I didn't quite know what it was about. The critics had to tell me what it was. And he's like oh okay, that sounds good.
Speaker 1:The industrial age oh okay, you know so I think you know, I think you know, but I also think you have to learn certain things, to forget certain things. Right, and if you hand in a script that's 200 and blah, blah, blah pages or doesn't have correct formatting, it won't get read, even if it's, you know, really brilliant.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think it's a little bit like you you learn, you learn all the rules, you learn to comply with them, and then you learn which ones you can violate, when and to what degree. Right you know, and what, what feels right and what doesn't you know, and and so it's, yeah, it's, and then when you watch a movie that feels too, too formulaic, you can tell movie.
Speaker 1:That feels too, too formulaic. Yeah, you can tell, you can tell. You can tell, yeah, yeah. Or you know that, um, I have this thing where it's kind of fun, I bring I make my students watch an awful movie, right, so like we'll watch the purge or something anaconda. It's like the lowest rotten tomato, you know, and I'm like, well, it's easy to say boo-hoo, and that was dumb, dumb, it's easy to do that, but it's kind of hard to actually, using story language, articulate why it's broken and how you can fix it. And we'll do, and students will do that. It's amazing how dude they get it, man.
Speaker 1:Or sometimes it's just the smallest thing of like I don't buy that relationship, that marriage didn't like what. What are they doing, you know? And so often, um, I have this theory and I can't prove anything, but I have a feel, I think that, like, bad writing happens, happens when we start honoring writer's objective or executive's objective before the character objective, then you're compromising character right. So, if you like, you know, if I said something that you wanted me to say on this podcast right now, it might not feel natural, right, it might violate character, right, if I'm going, oh, maybe we should like commercial there. You know it's a coffee brought to you by Folgers.
Speaker 1:Dr Shredda is the you know, podcast you know, but you'll see that I mean, you're watching a film and it feels like almost like the character is talking to the audience, Right, and they stop. They just hit a plot. They're talking the plot. You know like, oh, where is the bad guy? We better kill him before it's going to be over.
Speaker 2:You know I always joke around that when, when, when, when a show or a movie requires too many cell phones and text messages, that's because Someone's like oh, that's, that's. That's an easy way to convey that these two characters don't get along Sure.
Speaker 1:Hey, sure, but the exciting part would be if a character like couldn't find their Exactly and they flipped a shit. They are we allowed to swear? They flipped their shit and it revealed character. Then it's like yeah, man, you know some of the best lines. Some of the best lines are like if you ask me, noises like eh, eh, you know it's. The writer is secure enough that they don't have to say something flowery at that time. Right, you know, just be like afraid.
Speaker 2:One of the interesting things that that I've become aware of, even doing this podcast, is that seeing the, the written transcripts of conversations because you know the platforms we use will do an AI transcription instantly and then you read it and you look at the so you listen to. I'll often listen to the episodes when I go for a run or when I'm at the gym prior to publishing, and then I'll look at the written transcript and I'll go yeah, we have a lot of incomplete sentences. Yeah, and there's nothing in this that flows smoothly. Oh, sure, but I don't remember it that way. And we just sat and had a one hour engaging conversation, because so much of the communication is contextual body language sounds, you know big time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, mar Marlon Brando, that the big knock against him, which was probably the greatest strength, was he never read the script and he never knew his lines and he just said whatever he wanted, and half the time he just make noises.
Speaker 1:Well, he, I remember um, totally random, we're talking about rando, but um, I don't know where, but I remember him saying that like he thought everyone was an actor. And he's like you act, you're obviously where he's like you're acting. And he's like you act, you're obviously where he's like you're acting all day long. Like you, your boss walks in and you have to pretend that you like them and and to not be insecure and like it's. That's, it's kind of true, it's very interesting. So, but that kind of. There's a little bit of a segue here. I'm not completely jumping around, but I think in all of this what I get most excited about is when you can use the principles of like film stuff or scene work and apply them to real life. To me that's exciting. Like I remember studying films in film school and trying just simply understanding what the character wants, what that other character wants. Is there conflict? And then this real it sounds basic but it's I never thought of it this way understanding what those characters are doing to represent their wants. Right? Well, guess what? You can use that on a date. You can use that in a job interview.
Speaker 1:I had this fun homework thing where I'd tell my students. All you got to do for me this weekend is go to a party. That's it. Don't get me in trouble. Don't tell my son it was hard in pandemic time, but I'm like, all you got to do get me in trouble. Don't tell them I sent you. It was hard in pandemic time, but I'm like. All you got to do is go to a party and I want you to eavesdrop on three different people. Don't tell them I sent you. Don't get me in trouble. Don't interact with them, but just listen to them. And do they really love Jersey? By the punch bowl, you know, are we really talking about Jersey for 10 minutes or am I in love with you? And I bet the way that my shoulders are pointing or how my voice and flex or whatever, like that's, and these students bring it back and they're like I I don't. I think they're gonna break up. Yeah, and I'm like, why? Like dude, that is the most what I remember.
Speaker 1:My favorite class in high school was taught. She's still at Cornell, her name is Dr Cindy Hazan and she teaches a bonding class. It's almost like a TED talk, you know. She grew it from 30 people to now 700. It's the most requested class by non-majors, non-psychology majors at Cornell. Look her up, cindy Hazan, and she wrote a chapter about going to parties and she could figure out what couples were going to break up and she would study body language. What did she say? Something like if you're with your partner and you're like in a circle of friends and one person one person throws a joke and the whole group laughs, but the other person, she's like oh, is that like? And I remember. I'm like oh, my God, to me don't quote me on this, maybe my title have to edit this out, but to me that is more exciting than movies. There I said, that is more exciting than movies. There I said it. That is more exciting than movies for me.
Speaker 2:There used to be a there's well, the newspaper still exists, called the San Diego Reader. It's a free community newspaper and I think mostly now it's ads for pot dispensaries. But they used to have this little mini column and it was called overheard in San Diego. Oh, interesting. And the the whoever wrote it would just. They would say you know, pacific beach, friday night, 7. Pm. These two people would be talking and you would just, and I used to love it because you would just read a snippet or two and you'd go yeah what?
Speaker 2:what is this Like it's? It's not what they're saying.
Speaker 1:It's everything that's underneath it, yes, and it's so. I mean subtext is what an interesting thing, right, and what an exciting thing you know, know that that we can play with you know, that's why I think that's why I think you, you're exhausted. At the end of the day, nothing bad happened, nobody threatened. You know, no one wanted to punch your lights out, but you're exhausted. I think you've just had some bad subtext the whole day.
Speaker 2:You know it's like you're absorbing some of these things yeah, it's, and we're fundamentally social animals and and I think we're also again, I can't prove this, but you know joseph campbell and hero of a thousand faces and um, just the fact that story is the original form of communication, I think it's so interesting. We've we've got thousands of years of evolution around the bs detector. When someone's telling us oh, authenticity, tone, um, I bet your, I bet your students.
Speaker 1:Students are amazing at seeing if it's phoned in, dialed in phone bs well and they got, yeah, and there's a certain age at which I think I would.
Speaker 2:I think there's a middle school, early high school it peaks, and then after that I think we begin to acculturate and adulterate if that's such a word that works here people's level of honesty and directness, and so then we get to adulthood and we're telling people things that they want to hear and not what we want to really tell them. Oh sure, and we protect. It's interesting I had a podcast guest a couple of weeks ago who's a professor at UCSD the first Latina professor at UCSD in the history of UCSD, in science and engineering. She has a cross-border summer research institute that brings high school kids from Tijuana and San Diego together, together and they do this awesome stuff. It's really, really, uh, she's a pretty inspirational, amazing professor.
Speaker 2:But when she said one thing to me that stuck with me, she said the friendships that people start in high school are the most authentic friendships they'll ever have in their life, because if you continue them, you're continuing them, because you want them to continue, because they're based in truth and authenticity. The relationships that you form in the workplace. You know you come together because you both work there and you have the shared interest in not getting fired or whatever, right. And so it's that thing about, like the authentic story and authentic friendships, um, when they work, they're great, you know, and they're rare too. Yeah, it's interesting that's exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we let's write a screenwriting book where the end goal is to not sell a screenplay. How about that?
Speaker 2:That would be fantastic.
Speaker 1:We're just going to start with that.
Speaker 2:The goal here is that this screenplay is going to just be on your computer.
Speaker 1:It's an emotional or, um, an exercise. Yeah, because it's real to me. That is, and that's what I, that's what I kind of think, that's what I want to my son. Like I don't want all my students to join the circus and go. If they want to, then hey, you can do that, man. But, like, what's more exciting is like, do the next, the next interview. Why do you think that boss keeps drinking his coffee mid-sentence? Why is he doing that? Is he anxious? Is he nervous? Does he? Is he intimidated by you? Is this an insecurity? Is he hiding? I'm like, dude, that's exciting, that's legit.
Speaker 2:Like I remember reading something about a crime writer, like this kind of noir genre where he had a. He was describing a police detective like this hard bitten police detective, probably in, you know, la, circa 1963 kind of thing, 63 kind of thing, and the guy was a homicide investigator and he described them as having a ballpoint or a BIC pen with deep grooves in it. And all his BIC pens had deep grooves in them. And I was like what is it? And it was because he was biting his pen. Oh, interesting, from the stress, isn't that interesting? But you only find out later what the groove came from. I'm like that's, you know, like that's, that's the real thing, right, that's the real thing.
Speaker 1:I I always remember, like like english class, thinking, oh, writing is is knowing fancy words and stuff, but chat gpt has proven to come up with those for us, right? So you know, really like these ideas but hate understanding behavior and and being able to represent that. That to me that's a lot more exciting yeah really so.
Speaker 2:I wanted to kind of add a little bit more dimensionality to your life and your work. As a professor and a screenwriter and a father and a husband you need for your professorial work as well as your screenwriting, while also creating and protecting the heart space that you need for your husband and father roles, and still do it all with a smile on your face. How do you do that?
Speaker 1:Lots of coffee? No, I don't know, I probably don't do it. Well, I don't know I. You know, like, um, I think, um, I do know this. Um, I can be a little my wife will laugh when she hears this.
Speaker 1:I can be a little obsessive at times, you know, um, and and to me writing, I have to obsess about it, sadly, you know. So it's very hard for me to be like, oh, you know, ding time to do five pages and turn it off and go to class, and you know I like to kind of go all in or go all out, you know, and same with lecture, like I really like to disappear and just bounce around and try to have as much fun, you know, like that kind of thing. So I have what you know I'm supposed to be writing all the time. I'm not, but luckily I'm. I'm pretty, I'm pretty fortunate to have the kind of calendar of a higher ed on on my side, you know side. You know um, and so you know summers can be really nice times and and and a month-long break at at christmas time. You know, like those times can be used to to really dive in and try to disappear, um, in something I haven't built a shed in my backyard that I can go disappear in. But how amazing, there's still.
Speaker 1:The guy wrote um, um, crazy, stupid, love dan fogelman. He went to, like he rented a cabin in joshua tree and he turned off his phone for two weeks. I mean, dude, how amazing would that be. But it's not, it's not in the cards right now. So, um, but I think it's just finding that time and then, um, allowing myself to obsess, you know, and being like, dude, I'm not, I can't do both. Yeah, and it can affect, like, sometimes if I write right before a lecture, it's I'm not present, you know, I'm like do that, don't do that, don't do that. So I don't know, maybe you're kind of always triaging things and being like all right, what do I need to be right now? What you know, what's a good place to be?
Speaker 2:And it's I think it's also the beauty of being away from it for the right amount of time, not too much time.
Speaker 1:I also think you can quote right and not be on a keyboard. Seriously, I think we're writing right, Aren't we writing?
Speaker 2:We're talking, I don't know, and I'm recording this. My tie is transcribing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, my daughter's going to transcribe it, but no, the hour-long drive that I sit in, quiet, from Ithaca to Syracuse too, that's. That's nice for me, man. I like that. Sometimes you get writing done that way, you know things like that. So, um, but it's far from perfect and and maybe it's always, always adjusting and always changing, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, you, you've been very generous with your time and I want to honor that, but I just have a couple more questions for you. You've covered a lot of questions about the industry in terms of like breaking in or the importance of character and the importance of authenticity and the importance of authenticity. You're also working in a sector that, like any sector, is changing, and we saw recent writers strike in Hollywood and was it writers and actors too, I'm trying to think but a lot of disruption, right, fear of AI, how that was going to change, how streaming has impacted the industry. So, with the film industry and TV industry undergoing so many changes, what kind of skills do you emphasize and help cultivate in your students to prepare them for the current and future landscapes?
Speaker 1:Good question. You know, I think trying to expose them as much as possible to what's out there, what those jobs are, having a lot of guest speakers come and talk about how they got to be where they are what's really nice about and it's it's nice for everybody, but definitely for the professors of, like, new houses. Syracuse new house has this wonderful alumni network, right, so you can bring in some amazing guests and students really eat it up. You know the students that are in these programs they've worked very hard to get there. They're very ambitious students and most of them have kind of figured out that they want to be in some part of the business, you know, like that kind of thing, and so they really soak that stuff up and I think exposing them to as much of that as possible is helpful. I also think this that you know these students also take like half of their classes outside of this building, outside of Newhouse, and it's a nice liberal arts curriculum that they 60 credits or something of other. That I think is great, right. It's like you know there's students that go to law school after you know, and and and they don't. They know that they like writing, but they don't want that lifestyle and they're going to become an agent. You know, like that kind of thing and like, so, there, what's really nice to feel like? Um, you know we can be talking about one thing, but it can, it can feed, you know, it can influence a different journey for a student and things like that.
Speaker 1:But again, I, I, I've got it good, I've got a, I've got a day job. You know there's so many writers, so many talented writers I went to film school with that are driving Ubers. It's tough, man, it is tough. I think it's especially tough to sustain it and to find longevity in that. The student who sat with Eric Roth I had him back. I'm like, tell me everything, eric Roth. They just sat on his porch in Santa Monica and Eric Roth was like, I don't know man, I think it's 50% being good and then 50 luck. You know like he's kind of very candid and and that he was fortunate to to, you know, find a lot of opportunities and things like that. So, um, but, but yes, I mean, I remember visiting you during the 2007, 2008 writer's strike and that was when, like, the blockbusters were going bye-bye and it was a lot of the figuring out the backend residuals, right With streaming. So good thing they did that. You know, it's really interesting.
Speaker 2:I was listening to a conversation recently with Reed Hastings, the CEO and founder of Netflix. Isn't he a Bowdoin guy?
Speaker 1:or something he's a.
Speaker 2:Bowdoin guy. Yeah, oh yeah, he's a few years older than I am, oh yeah, and significantly more successful than I am. But he, he smart guy, visionary, big supporter of education, big supporter of charter schools, interesting guy. But he was talking about I think he talks about in his book about At some point when Netflix was still mailing the DVDs. Do you remember those days?
Speaker 2:some point when netflix was still mailing the dvds. Do you remember those days? Sure, sure, sure. He went to blockbuster and he said, hey, uh, like I want you guys to buy us and for whatever 200 million dollars I want you guys to buy us. And, um, you know we'll. Just, we want to take advantage of, like, economies of scale and all this stuff. And blockbuster was like man, you guys aren't even worth our time yeah, isn't that crazy you know, fast forward, right, fast forward 20 years and you see what happens.
Speaker 2:So, um, yeah, it's really. It's interesting, uh, to reflect on how, how things have changed, right, that people are consuming a lot of what you write on this, sure, right, the sitting in a dark theater. Now, someone once said I remember reading that half of the time I don't know if this is really true, but certainly with the old film right where it was like film strip right, half of the time I don't know if this is really true, but certainly with the old film right where it was like film strip right, half of the time you're sitting in darkness because, because it's flashing by, your eye doesn't pick up on the darkness, right, maybe in the early movies where it was all herky-jerky, you could kind of feel it and this experience of going to a movie theater, that's a special event, sitting there in darkness for two hours.
Speaker 2:For most people that's gone yeah you know and and um for a host of reasons and it's just interesting to reflect on on that, and and even I was thinking about the ai, you touched on it a little bit. I use ai all the time, and and and um in my. But if I ask AI to come up with questions to interview you and it would probably go to IMDB it's going to find some information about you, but then it's going to ask really generic questions. It'll ask sufficient questions, questions it'll ask sufficient questions, but it's not going to ask nuanced, thoughtful, yeah, questions, yeah, and I think maybe the same thing applies to creating plots, certainly characters right.
Speaker 1:Well, it's interesting, we had this professor come give us this like work ai workshop and I don't, I, I can't, I don't know all the like super new stuff. But he was on some website where he like put in prompts right for a certain like a scenario of what a film could be, and it spit out plot right, and it was the most talk about save the cat and like you Cat, and those obvious choices. Not that Save the Cat has to do that, but perhaps if we misinterpret it it could end up there, right. Well, this AI spit out the most Formulated, yes, predictable, and I think that would be a place to start to then ruin it and mess it up.
Speaker 1:You know, some of the most, some of my favorite films, they're flawed in some ways, they're, they're like it's their imperfections that were like Ooh, that was kind of interesting, you know, and like it's I. So I, I, I, you know, I don't know we can't prove it, but I, I just think we're going to be caring even more about voice and because a computer is just going to be able to spit out anything right and it's, I think we're going to continue to value those, the imperfections and the like uniqueness of voice like that. That's where it's at, man right I think it does.
Speaker 2:I think it's going to make us more human if we're paying attention right but it can also save you time.
Speaker 1:Save you time. Look, you didn't have to go research seven uh broad comedies to understand those plot points.
Speaker 2:And you can go now study those plot points and then ruin them or make decisions that are not predictable, like them, that's right, you know I'll get a data set in an Excel spreadsheet and if I have to sit and find patterns, emerging patterns in the data, it might take me hours. I can have AI do it instantly. I can have AI do it instantly. But then for me to communicate those, make them actionable, convey them to other people in a way that other people understand and believe in and hopefully take action on them, is a totally different thing. Right, and you know it has a human side and and there's a you know how, how do you, how do you get your message across? And that's the story part. Right, that's the moving of people.
Speaker 1:There's also some plot, like there's some plots. If I I make my students watch Harold and Maude it's the in the beginning part of the semester and they, they either they either love it or they think I'm bonkers and I'm like, alright, whatever man, but it kind of throws them. But if I was to pitch that movie to you, you would lock me up, Right. Oh my god, it's going to be great. It's classic. It's about a death obsessed Teenager who sleeps with an 80 year old and she kills herself. And you know, and you're going to laugh the whole time too you want to come see it. You would be like, dude enough, you would lock me up.
Speaker 1:You would lock me up, but the way it was done, the voice that a good, a good first date movie, you know that's a great. Uh, you know, get them talking, but, um, I don't think AI would have understood that. I don't know, you know.
Speaker 1:So sometimes it's ridiculous that that we like the most, yeah, yeah, um so I just have two more more questions for you, um this is getting me out of kid duty, so you can tell you know, let me fill up another coffee, yeah you're right, let's roll, let's roll, you're starting to come home.
Speaker 2:So what advice would your current self give to, to your 18 year old self who was on this track to? I remember you you were like full-on, dedicated nerd, ready to go. You were like I'm gonna be a neurosurgeon, yeah no. What advice would your 40 something self tell?
Speaker 1:him oh, I got a good one. Learn this in therapy or something. I don't know. We'll have to thank a therapist or something, but it's like okay to not have it figured out. Man, you know, I think that is such an unfair question that I remember hearing a lot of as a high school. End of high school what are you going to do? What are you doing? What?
Speaker 1:are you doing, what's your thing, what's it like? How do you know if you haven't been in the real world? You know, like I think it's it's OK to have ideas like, hey, I like rocket science or something, but I think, try. I guess what the therapist told me was try on a lot of different hats. See what works, man. See what I would have never thought. I didn't know what. We didn't have screenwriting in my high school. I didn't even know what it was and I quite honestly didn't. Well, don't tell anybody. I didn't love college and I wasn't a great student. And now I'm like I quite enjoy it in a different role. Like, don't, don't tell, this isn't going to go anywhere, right, just kidding.
Speaker 2:But like you know, like I, think I just I don't know.
Speaker 1:I think high schoolers should be like I I'm a. Their response should be I'm very smart, I don't. I'll let you know in 10 years after I experience X, y and Z. I don't know Something like that, yeah.
Speaker 2:The whole piece about living up or down, depending on how you want to look at it to other people's expectations of what we think, especially when we're young. Other people are expecting us to do. Um, I, you know, I have I've had some of that in my life as well right, I think, oh, I'm expected to do this and this and this. Then eventually you get there. It's a little bit like the greyhound chasing the mechanical rabbit. No right, they dedicate their whole lives to chasing the mechanical rabbit, but it's a little known fact that when they actually catch it, uh, then they have to be retired from the race because the the illusion is gone. It's not what it's, it's a steel bolt with a colored rag tied around it. It's not a rabbit, you know, and so that's a. I think it's inspiring for me to speak with you because you, at an early age, pivoted from that. You took a left turn off the freeway instead of the right exit.
Speaker 1:It was a hard left.
Speaker 2:It was a hard left, I know sometimes I remember you had this one apartment. That was like. It was like about five feet from the 405 freeway and I'm exaggerating, oh dude, it was like the fumes from the cars were coming. They built a, there's now a sound wall there they built a sound wall yeah I remember I was like wow, um, and so you know you, you've gone through that and but it's. But it's beautiful, because you can now convey that to to your students and your own children too.
Speaker 1:Right like the struggle is I tell my kids to be dentists, though I'm like dude just be, you know come on, fix those teeth, baby.
Speaker 2:Fix those teeth. Fix those teeth, just be you. Come on, daddy's got a good day. I'm listening to music, that's right, just elevator music. I remember every pianist I ever had would come along to the songs. Right, right, okay, I got one last question for you Hold on.
Speaker 1:Before you do this, I have one more, just as we're talking here, yes, and question for you. Hold on, before you do this. I have one more, just as we're talking here yes, and it's relevant because of family origin. We're giving a shout out here, yes, another piece of advice. I've talked to my dad about this. Okay, the doc, the good doc.
Speaker 2:I talked to.
Speaker 1:Kay about this too, when she visited.
Speaker 2:The original good doc by the way, he's the real good, doc.
Speaker 1:Another piece of this is a life law. Are we allowed to do that? Life law?
Speaker 2:right, you're on the podcast.
Speaker 1:All right, get a note card out. This is called the Raymond's Law, seriously Named after our grandpa.
Speaker 2:Oh, I got to write this down.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I don't know how the story goes.
Speaker 2:Never spend a penny that you don't have.
Speaker 1:No, I think. Well, I'm only hearing this from my dad, the good doc, but he said something like we called him Bumpa, right, raymond is Bumpa, but he was, I don't know, post-war I don't know something. He wanted to be a teacher, right? And he was like a little older or something, 36. Yeah, okay, whatever. He went to the principal and I don't know. They're like oh, dude, you're old, don't do this. And then he listened to him and then he didn't do this, and then he listened to him and then he didn't do that.
Speaker 1:Where I say Raymond's law is dude, keep asking. Nobody knows what the hell they're doing out there. There, that's the law. There's been so many times in my life where people are like no, dude, don't do that. No, no, no, don't do that. Uh-uh, you better stop Right, or I think it's. I think you see it like all the time, I don't know I was on the phone with something stupid like a cell phone bill or like the guy's like oh no, you can't call that, you know, verizon doesn't have that plan. And then I called back again and the lady's like oh sure we'll, we'll sign you up right here. You know like I feel like by keep asking, like you keep asking and putting it out there. Then sometimes things find a way. You don't know how many rejection letters I have gotten from screenplays. I had a professor at UCLA look me in the eye and say you don't look like a writer, you look more like an agent. You shouldn't do this. You better stop, you know.
Speaker 2:Money ball right. Yeah, money ball. You saw money ball right, Sure, yeah, hey, he looks like a ball player and he's got an attractive group.
Speaker 1:Exactly. Oh yeah, he has so much confidence.
Speaker 2:Meanwhile he's right, he's not an attractive exactly, oh yeah. Confidence. Meanwhile he's batting a buck 52 and dude, if you listen to those people you're done, man, you're.
Speaker 1:I saw it in higher ed too, when I had to climb up kind of as an adjunct and stuff like that. Lots of, lots of raymond laws.
Speaker 2:So anyway, there's my, there's I don't know if that makes any sense. That does, that's great. You know a side story about the Bumpa name real quick.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:Did you come up with the Bumpa name? It must have been you. So here's an interesting. I think so because I am the oldest of the grandkids, right? Yes? So here's an interesting aside about the Lovey and Bumpa. So here's an interesting aside about the Lovey and Bumpa. So for people listening, you know our grandparents were Lovey and Bumpa Bumpa. I think the name comes from the fact that couldn't say grandpa, it was just easier to say Bumpa but Lovey. I never knew where that came from and so it stuck. It stuck for me and my siblings, it stuck for you and your siblings, and that's what they were known, known as. May they rest in peace.
Speaker 2:So a few years ago I'm at work and I go into a teacher's classroom. I need to ask her question and she's on the phone and she looks at me and goes like this she goes and then she said she says on the phone, she says actually, lovey, hold on, my boss is in here, I'll get, I'm going to call you back in a little bit, lovey. And she hangs up the phone and I go oh my God, what Wow. I said I got to ask you.
Speaker 2:You, it's clearly not our grandmother, because she was, unless she was having a call with the other, the other world, right, right, what? So I go? I gotta ask you, and she goes. Well, my, my mom is british, okay, and in england you know they say they, at least in that generation you say love, lovey, love, love as like a term of endearment, interesting, and so for some percentage of grandparents, in interacting with their grandkids, that was like the first words that they heard, and so that's how her mom became lovey, and I'm thinking we moved to England when I was learning to speak.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2:We moved to England when I was learning to speak, and so my grandparents I have this distant. My first memories of them are with them, visiting us.
Speaker 2:Oh, I didn't know that, yeah, yeah so I was like, and actually an aside to that story is what's her name on the original actress from er margulies? Um, okay, what's her name? Julianne margulies, margulies. So yeah, so so her parents and my parents were living in the same apartment building in England and so supposedly and she and I are about the same age, I think she might be a year or two older we used to play in the sandbox together and supposedly I hit her with a stick. So that's my claim to because I had quite a temper. But thinking back on where the names come from, yes, how it goes throughout the family, right?
Speaker 1:It was like amazing. And not only that, but how sometimes nicknames can be very fitting right. I mean that's interesting.
Speaker 2:Like there's, if I call her in my mind, if I call her grandma, it doesn't work. Right, it just doesn't work. It's just right. Tbt will call her grandma. Yeah, but it doesn't work. So, so well, yeah, so, but I just wanted to thank you again, ben, for your time, your generosity. We got to do this again sometime this is great.
Speaker 1:I told you, my seven-year-old keeps I don't know why, oh I, he keeps talking about san diego. He's like I got to go to san diego.
Speaker 2:You guys got it, you got it, you got to come out.
Speaker 1:I asked him I'm like what is it, Diego? And he's like I think I meant Santiago, yeah my daughter was in Santiago not too long ago, so very similar to San Diego.
Speaker 2:But anyway, we'll get to we'll have to connect again and I've, I'm gonna, I've got to also speak with the, with uh, with the, the, the two doctors in your family, uh, uh, get them on here too, and I know everybody's busy and um doing the thing, but uh, it's been a real pleasure having you on and and um, and you know, I wish you all the best in your work. I look forward to reading your book when you, when you finish it, and you know anything we didn't even get into, like future projects, but maybe that's a second podcast episode, so I just want to thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Awesome, all right, well, thanks for having me and let's talk soon. All right, we'll talk to you soon, okay? All right, take care, dave.
Speaker 2:Thank you for listening to the Superintendent's Hangout. You can follow me on Twitter at DVS1970. Please be sure to share this show with friends and family on social media and in the real world. Thank you to Brad Backeal for editing and production assistance and to Tina Royster for scheduling and logistics. Thanks for hanging out and have a great day.