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The Hangout
#84 Young Abulencia and Buddy Gessel, Architects and Innovators
In this episode, Dr. Sciarretta sat down with Young Abulencia and Buddy Gessel, two architects from the DLR Group. Young and Buddy talk about their careers and their work at DLR, while sharing fascinating insights that add dimension to common perceptions of architectural work.
Welcome to the Superintendent's Hangout, where we discuss topics in education, charter schools, life in general, and not necessarily in that order. I'm your host, dr Sharetta. Come on in and hang out. In this episode, I was privileged to sit down with young Abulencia and Buddy Gassell, who are both architects at DLR Group, a design architectural firm in San Diego, california. Young and Buddy cover a wide range of topics, from how they first started in architecture to the changing face of architecture, especially as it interfaces with technology over the years, to the underlying principles that remain the same, to the importance of taking a collaborative approach and a community-based approach to design, and much, much more. This was a fascinating conversation and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did. Welcome, young buddy. Thank you so much for coming in this afternoon, both of you taking a little break from your busy day for a chat.
Speaker 2:Thank you for having us. Yeah, we're glad to be here.
Speaker 1:I was wondering if we could start with each of you sharing your origin story, where you come from, what your journey has been to this present moment, and then we'll dive more specifically into what you do for a living and those sorts of things.
Speaker 2:So whoever wants to take that, Sure, you know, personally I have a little bit of a non-traditional entry into architecture. You know, a lot of architects know, you know from the time they're three, four, five years old that they want to be an architect. They're playing with Legos and blocks and erector sets and all that stuff. For me, though, I come to it a little more less traditionally, where, going through high school, I didn't even know what architecture was. I did a lot of drawing, a lot of painting, a lot of creative arts, and, and that, and. As I moved to college time to select a school, right, there are lots of choices in the arts, if it was industrial design or arts or graphics, and that, and, and. One school had a box with architecture and I checked the box, and, and. Really the rest is history. From that point, and, and, and, and. In applying to that, I uh applied for a national talent search scholarship to study architecture and was one of two two recipients out of a thousand to study architecture at Pratt Institute.
Speaker 1:New York, right In New York yeah, in Brooklyn.
Speaker 2:And so, you know, I show up at school and I'm talking with my advisor. I'm like, look, I don't understand why. Why'd you pick me out of two out of a thousand people? I know nothing about architecture. I didn't even know who Frank Lloyd Wright was at the time going into architecture school, right, and uh, and they're like well, look, you know, we, we can teach you all that here, but what we want are people that can think and that are creative, and that's what you have.
Speaker 1:So are you a New Yorker, a new yorker, no.
Speaker 2:So originally I grew up in houston, texas, all through my childhood and then moved off to to new york to study, got to travel throughout europe as as we studied architecture and in italy and that, and then I moved back to Houston and was working on K-12 work in the Texas area and figured why not move to California? And in 2001, I moved out to San Diego and been working on K-12 projects for gosh almost 25 years now.
Speaker 1:Wow, you certainly got a weather upgrade.
Speaker 2:Big time, big time, big time, for both locations, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you went from hot and humid to hot and humid in the summer, to back to hot and humid and then hurricanes, and then, finally, you escaped it. Yep Young, our origin story. What's your journey?
Speaker 3:Sure. So I am Korean American. I am first generation born in the States. My parents immigrated separately. They have different immigration stories but that's a whole different topic. But after they married they lived in Boulder, colorado, which is where I was born, and it was short lived there.
Speaker 3:We, when I was about a year old, moved to Palm Springs. So I grew up in Southern California in the Palm Springs area. My family owned a dry cleaners and had a dry cleaning business and that's where I first learned to work hard. And I, similarly to Buddy, didn't necessarily know what architecture was when I was growing up, didn't have exposure to design or arts or was not encouraged either to go into that direction, and didn't necessarily have a strong burning passion for any specific industry or subject. But I did like science and was encouraged at the time by my family to become a doctor, but I wasn't necessarily sold on it. So I went to undergraduate at, did my undergraduate at UCSB for cell and developmental biology and at the time I thought I might go to med school. I thought I might go to vet school. I thought I might go into oceanography or our biotechnology was emerging at the time as an industry but it wasn't really quite known what it was, at least to me.
Speaker 3:As a college student, and after doing a lot of kind of self-found internships in various fields, I sat for my GREs at the end of college and something that the proctor said to me stuck with me. He said okay, so you're all going to sit down and take your GREs and you might want to go to graduate school. But I'm just going to tell you some free, unsolicited advice. If you have a burning passion for something and you want to go to graduate school, great, do that. But if you're just thinking this is the next thing you might need to do, just because you're not sure what to do with yourself, don't do it Like go out, get a job, figure out what you like, what you don't like, experience the world, then apply for graduate school, and so that just kind of stuck with me.
Speaker 3:I took the test, graduated and decided to move to San Diego and work in biotech. So I worked as a scientist and molecular biologist for five years, decided I didn't love it enough to go back to graduate school and always, although I wasn't growing up, I wasn't, like, exposed much to the arts or architecture, I always was a maker. I made a lot of things by hand, with just crafts and paper and just the materials I had available to me. And so I thought, just on a whim, I wonder what kind of architecture schools are around San Diego, and I found a new school of architecture and design and I signed up for a semester while I was still working full-time in the lab, just to see if I liked it and I loved it.
Speaker 3:So I quit my lab job and quit molecular biology and went to school full time and switched and ever since then pursued architecture.
Speaker 1:How did your parents deal with the quitting of the science?
Speaker 3:Oh they at that point they were totally fine, because they were already massively disappointed that I never became a doctor.
Speaker 1:You broke them down with your gradations of disappointment.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:I'm sure they're proud now.
Speaker 3:It takes time. They come from a totally different world and time and post-war Korea, and with their ideas of what it means to be living the American dream and everything you do for your children. So they have very high expectations and hopes and dreams for their children and over time you have to just kind of as the actual person who's the recipient of all that. You have to kind of work with them to develop and change their ideas of what it means to be successful for me. But they got there eventually.
Speaker 1:As you were mentioning that, it reminded me I had a friend in college who similar story Korean-American, first generation here and you're going to be a doctor and so she was taking organic chemistry and and on the side she was taking design classes and art and architecture and I so it was a liberal arts college, so there wasn't really like an architecture track, but she was getting as many of those as she could and she had to hide it from her parents and her parents would open up her report card or whatever and look at her grades and then they'd be, oh, this is great. And then they'd go, oh, that must just be something you're doing for extra, for fun, on the side, you know. And it wasn't until she'd applied and gotten into grad school for architecture that she told them.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So it's like it's interesting, right, I decided early on to take the most direct approach possible, like starting, probably like as a 13 year old, I'm just going to argue as much as possible with them to like, because I was, I was just, I just wanted to be honest, you know, wasn't trying to be disrespectful, but just trying to say, well, I don't want to lie to you. I think that would be the highest form of disrespect.
Speaker 3:So, I'm just going to be honest, and so it took many years, but you know, a lot of Asian Americans have similar stories.
Speaker 1:Similar journey, right? Yeah, yeah so. So, buddy, you mentioned the importance of creativity and critical thinking, and that's really what you were two out of a thousand right, even though you had no, you didn't even know who Frank Lloyd Wright was at the time. Maybe you, both of you, could kind of speak to the fact that or maybe I'm assuming it's a fact it's something I carry with me. My understanding of architecture is that it's this kind of amalgamation of art, science, critical thinking, creativity, working with people, sometimes having to put your foot down on certain things that just structurally, can only be a certain way, or maybe you know they can't be the way that a client wants, etc. So to me it seems like a really exciting and kind of diverse type of an area of study. There's definitely science in it, but there's also really the artistic. Can you talk more about that, because it seems like both of you in some ways kind of stumbled upon it as a career path.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think one thing you'll find and I can speak personally is that I'm a pretty balanced left brain, right brain. I'm actually pretty good at math and, surprisingly, you don't have to be a great mathematician to be an architect. A lot of people think that and they stay away from the profession because of that. But you do have to use that creative side of your mind as well in a lot of the work that we do. Mind as well in a lot of the work that we do, and it's not just in design, but it's in the way that we work with our clients, the way we collaborate, the way we communicate, and you're always using all of those tools from your left brain and right brain all the time as you work in the profession.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for me, I think what I've, you know, over time, come to realize is maybe my approach to architecture is I think that all the answers already exist. It's not like I'm going to find the answer. I'm not going to make the answer All the answers already exist to whatever the questions or challenges or problems are. It's just kind of being able to sort through all the information and clarify and filter and then get down to the correct answer. So the goal for me is always what is going to serve the project best and not a personal. There's so many different approaches to architecture and if you talk to a thousand architects, they're all going to say something a little different or vastly different. But you know some, some architects have a very. You can just look at a building and say, oh, that's a Frank Lloyd Wright building or that's a. You know that. Any list, any architect sort of you know sort of thing.
Speaker 3:You can identify who the architect is by looking at the building, whereas I think, especially in public work, you want to listen really well and figure out what the challenges and goals and hopes of that project are and then serve those things as much as possible. So it's a, it's a, it's a listening approach and then kind of like filtering seeing what emerges.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, so it almost. It strikes me as similar to that. I don't know if michelangelo really said this, but that that the sculpture is there in the chunk of granite, right, you? Just have to take away all the stuff. That's not the sculpture.
Speaker 3:Right right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and see it emerge. Yeah, you're both now veterans in this space and I'm sure there was a time when some percentage of an architect's daily work was putting together foam, board gluing models and those sorts of things, and technology has really changed a lot of that. You've got VR tours. I'm not sure where AI fits into this whole thing, but it seems to be fitting into everything we do, whether we like it or not. Could you each speak to how that has changed from the time that you were in architectural school till now and then? What are some things that remain consistent?
Speaker 2:yeah, I could speak even. You know, even when I was in school school a lot of the architectural firms were still hand-drafting. They were just starting to adopt AutoCAD, which is basically just drawing lines on a computer, and once I started working, cad was pretty much widely adopted in the profession. So I actually didn't get to experience the drawing board days.
Speaker 2:I kind of wish I got to, but I worked with many people that did so. You know, once CAD became prevalent, technology really took off and it has changed so much in the profession, probably over the last 10 to 15 years with the advent of BIM, which is building information modeling, and so when we're able to use building information modeling, we're essentially building a prototype digitally, and you never really got to do that when you drew it by hand or you drew lines in a drafting software, when you drew it by hand or you drew lines in a drafting software. So it's really opened up a lot of add-on technologies on top of building information modeling, which allows us to create our documents. But from that digital model, we're now able to harness that technology in many different ways.
Speaker 2:Some of that, like you mentioned, with VR. We're able to take that model and walk through it virtually as we're designing now, and so instead of end users being surprised when the room's too small, they get to experience that in VR as we move through, we're seeing more and more real-time rendering so we're able to iterate faster, we're able to share what the designs will look like exterior and interior as well and then we are seeing AI start to drive practice. It's in its infancy. There are things that will automate the profession and will help us iterate and use that tool in ways. So I think architects that find ways to integrate that technology into practice will become the next digital leaders In the way that designs are explored. We'll be able to explore many, many more solutions Because it allows us that efficiency to look at all those different design options more quickly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that whatever the tool is whether it's a pencil or AutoCAD or Revit or AI those are just the tools at our disposal and, if anything, they make perhaps, like the design, iteration go faster and the document preparation go faster. But it doesn't really change the basic, like questions and answers that you need to arrive to in order to use the tools effectively, right, that you need to arrive to in order to use the tools effectively, right? So there's still it's for all the hype and kind of concern over whenever there's a new technology being developed, it doesn't change the training in terms of how you need to think about the project or how you need to develop the project or the. You know those things will always be the same. Those are fundamentals to figuring out how to serve the project. Well, but then you just have different tools available to you to kind of sort through those questions and maybe better communicate with people outside of the field that you're working with. What options are with people outside of the field that you're working?
Speaker 1:with what options are? I think it. It strikes me that it's going to make the, the soft skills, the human skills, even. It'll allow professionals to focus more on those. You're still going to have to explain to the client why moving, moving this elevator shaft is, while the, the software, showed you the cascading effects of it, but you're still gonna have to sit there and go uh, sir or ma'am, this is really how this is going to impact this. Can we work through it?
Speaker 3:yeah, you still need the human connections to have conversations, important conversations, and and present like facts and make sure that your client can make good choices. And you know and like, whenever the conversation about how it's going to affect, whenever any kind of technology is going to affect the practice comes up, I just think for me, I'm not concerned so much that it will destroy the practice or hurt the practice Only in so much as long as people don't get so distracted about the novelty or coolness of this one new tool. Just because you know how to use all these tools doesn't mean you can use them effectively. So that's.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I completely agree. It's just another tool in the toolbox and you just have to figure out how best to apply that tool into practice that produces and edits and everything.
Speaker 1:And I asked them if they felt that their business was threatened by the fact that everyone has a 4K video camera in their pocket and they said not really. Not really, because you still need to understand light, you still need to understand sound, you still need to understand placement. You still need to understand sound, you still need to understand placement, you still need to actually sit down and edit things and go back and shoot more and all these pieces. How many of us have 64,000 photos on our phones that we've never looked at? So we didn't put wedding photographers out of business and we didn't put real professional. We didn't put National Geographic out of business and we didn't put real professional. We didn't put National Geographic out of business, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's interesting to reflect on. There's an article that I read that was sometime from the I don't know, it might have been like 1910 or something, but they were bemoaning the fact that the chalkboard was going to destroy education and was going to make everyone's mind be weak, like having a chalkboard in a classroom, because I guess before that they'd I don't know what the other. You know, it's like these different delivery models and then now there are no more chalkboards anymore. Now everything's a smart board. Um, probably hasn't really appreciably changed delivery models in classrooms. Maybe a little bit.
Speaker 2:But I can tell you this when mobile technologies became more prevalent in in K-12, we started to see that drive educational planning and design. Okay, talk to me about that, sure. So what I mean by that is up until, let's say, I'd say, about 2010, 11, when the iPhone started coming out and more mobile technology was available, classrooms started hardwiring in data drops into the classrooms and so, you know, you still had a front of the classroom, all the kids sitting in desks facing the front of the room, but now you had some computers on the side where you could actually have computers in the classroom, and it was a big deal. You didn't have to. Kids didn't have to go to the computer lab, right.
Speaker 2:But as soon as mobile technologies became available and Wi-Fi started getting installed throughout campuses, it changed the whole layout and configuration of the classroom and it really started to drive us into a different era of K-12 planning. And what I mean by that is by having that flexibility. The teacher didn't necessarily have to stand at the front of the room all the time. The students had mobile devices, and so they could take their Chromebook or their iPad or whatever device they were using, and break up into different groups. They could reconfigure the rooms. They could maybe move into different collaboration spaces outside of the classroom to break up into smaller groups. So we really started to see a really interesting change in trend in K-12 planning once the mobile technologies really became prevalent and available for the teachers to use.
Speaker 1:It's interesting that you mentioned that, because now we're moving into the next iteration, because the pendulum swings and so now the next thing is going to be the banning of cell phones on school campuses not other educational technology, but cell phones. But there's a lot of overlap, right. Not other educational technology, but cell phones, but there's a lot of overlap right. So it'll be interesting to see if clients come to you and say, hey, is there a way we can put one of those shields over the campus to block cell phones or something. But that's going to be.
Speaker 1:You know, there's some legislation pending that's going to mandate boards to adopt policies to restrict and or ban cell phone use and access for students during the day. It's really interesting to reflect on that right. On the one hand, that tool that everybody has in their pocket will be restricted, whether it goes into one of those special restricted bags when the kid walks on campus or whether you have to keep in your backpack, whatever that is. But then, on the other hand, there's very similar technology an ipad, which is in a lot of ways just a blown up version of an iphone, still being used in the classroom yeah, I think what's interesting with that is the students have access to data much quicker than than at least I was.
Speaker 2:I'd have to go to a library, I'd have to do like you know.
Speaker 1:Did you do the card catalog? Because I did.
Speaker 2:You know, maybe you could get a Xerox copy of something, print it out, but now the students have access to all that data, and so you know figuring out a way for the teachers to harness that opportunity. So you know, figuring out a way for the teachers to harness that opportunity. And does that start to change the way that education is delivered? And we touched on AI, but that's really maybe the next hurdle for academic leaders and teachers to look at. How does that influence how I teach in my classroom, at how does that influence how I teach in my classroom? And I was just kind of wondering will there be an impact architecturally in planning with AI? And I don't know yet. You know, with mobile technologies, there were different types of spaces that resulted and that were driven out of that, but I don't know if there are spatial changes to a room based on AI yet.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think that there's still, you know, going to be physical needs. It's all about like what the constraints are right. So now that we have all the tools that you described, it pushes more towards flexibility and openness and being able to use a space in a variety of ways. But then, you know, schools will still have things that they need that are outside of all that. You know. You still need to be able to do testing. You still need to be able to have a secure environment. You still need like under various scenarios. You still need some like under various scenarios. You still need some of these other constraints. So you put that all together and schools are still going to look like schools, but you might have more options available to you In terms of like what you were saying about.
Speaker 3:You know, like all the information that kids have available to them now, compared to when we had to do the card catalog and read it out of sight sighted thing out of an encyclopedia or something like that. Now the challenge I think for for teachers and parents and with all this, is just like the overload of information, so teaching them how to filter it responsibly and find like a responsible source for their question and not just read the first thing that comes off the top of their feed, right? So that's, I think I've already seen it in, like the reports and the research that my kids do for school. You know, I'll ask them about. You know how, how are you finding these sources and what have they taught you about how to research these sources? And they'll tell me and it's impressive, the, the teachers keep up.
Speaker 2:They, you know they they'll explain how to go through that information online. So, but there's still skills within architecture and other professions where you know you need to learn how to work with people, how to collaborate, how to communicate, how to present. So even you know some of these new technologies that are surfacing. Okay, it helps you maybe get to a certain answer or some research quicker, but at the end of the day, there's still skills that layer on top of that.
Speaker 1:I want to pivot a little bit to the DLR group and then we'll kind of get more granular around K-12 work. What makes your firm unique and what is kind of the overall design philosophy if there is one for a firm, if that's a thing.
Speaker 2:I'd say that the one thing that makes us unique here locally in San Diego is that we focus 100% on K-12 and higher ed work locally 100% on K-12 and higher ed work locally and we also, as part of our design process, it's important that we go through some type of community-based planning on our projects and it's about listening to the needs that the different districts and clients that we work with have, and sometimes these community meetings might be small groups. They might be large community groups where there's there are lots of concerns and and needs for the further local schools, but we really listen to what those needs are and then respond with design solutions that address those needs.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I agree. You know, I mentioned earlier just finding solutions that serve the project as much as possible, as like, a personal approach, but that's an approach I learned in large part with my experience with this firm. I learned in large part with my experience with this firm and just doing a lot of public work in general. So, specific to DLR, though, out of the San Diego office, if you were to throw all of our pictures, pictures of all of our projects, up on a board no, no project looks like the other project, it's, they're, they're very different.
Speaker 1:You, you wouldn't, you wouldn't even know they came from the same firm.
Speaker 3:necessarily you wouldn't assume that they necessarily came from the same office. That's not necessarily true of a lot of offices, of a lot of architect. For you know, we architects kind of make a game out of it. They'll see some renderings or some photos and they'll say, oh, that's a such and such project, that's a such and such project. You can just tell the project to that location, that client, that just you know that need, the needs that are site specific and project specific. And so when you, when you look at each project, it's individual, it tells a story unique to that situation and place. And and I you know that's that's something I think pretty unique about our office.
Speaker 2:And the reason that's important. Schools become the centers of communities and a lot of times, especially out in areas that are just being developed, schools might be the first civic type buildings that are in these communities, and so they become the fabric of these new neighborhoods, their resources for the community to use as they start to grow and expand into these areas, and they're made available for public use as well.
Speaker 3:And they're often the longest lived structures within a community. You know you don't get funding for a new school every day and so you want to give. You know you want to do that community right and give them the best facility possible at that moment in time that'll last them the next 50 years plus, because they might not get another opportunity like that in the future, and so that's really important.
Speaker 1:It's interesting, it's interesting, I think, when people think about public projects and they think about schools and maybe I'm dating myself because I grew up in a time when we went to school many of us in buildings built in the 70s and perhaps not the most inspiring architecture, I think, largely just practical right, just a lot of rectangular boxes, san Diego this is not a knock against any district because I think this is pretty ubiquitous, but a lot of portable classrooms that stopped being portable. They just got anchored and they stayed Not inspiring. That's me editorializing, but I've taught Actually, fun fact my whole teaching career I never had a permanent structure. Everything was portable until I moved into administration and even then my first office was portable.
Speaker 1:I'm very impressed by the work of your firm and obviously both of your areas of expertise and your designs, because a lot of the projects look like they've got a lot of boutique hotel kind of look in them and feel in them in terms of the lighting, in terms of an inviting entry place. You know you spend more time at the school than you do with your own family. Why would you want to be in a place that's not inspiring and uplifting? How do you bring that to bear in an environment where, historically, schools perhaps weren't the most inspiring architecturally. You're also dealing with public funding, and so it's not the same as okay, design this opera house in LA and make it look like it's soaring to the heavens or something, and we'll find a billionaire to pay for it.
Speaker 3:Well, I think that you know it's a little bit. Obviously you want to make the most efficient wise choices with your client's funds as possible, but I think it's a little bit of a misnomer or misconception that people you shouldn't assume that because you're using your funds efficiently that the project will be ugly.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm just saying that there have been a lot of those not by you guys, but I think, historically schools.
Speaker 3:Sure, so we reject that you reject that.
Speaker 3:And we want to provide the most beautiful, inspiring project that's place appropriate and project appropriate as possible, and for all the reasons you listed. You know people spend their growing up in these facilities. It's a formative time in our children's lives and that has a long-term effect. And there's more and more studies that come out that show the effect of beautiful, healthy, daylit, clean environments for kids' learning outcomes, and districts are knowledgeable about that. So they're often the ones that you know they want to show that we're using the bond funds wisely, appropriately, and they don't want us to design them an ugly facility, Right. So, and for for many, many reasons, yeah, yeah, and I didn't mention most.
Speaker 2:all of our work is publicly funded work.
Speaker 1:We have very little private work, so we absolutely acknowledge and respect that these are public funds. Taxpayers.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and so you know good planning and good design, like Young mentioned, if you do it right from the beginning, an ugly building can cost the same as a beautifully designed building, as long as you're designing in ways that can be maintainable, um that that you know the schools and and and the districts can can use these facilities and in those ways.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I think the the I've been impressed I want to make sure that anybody listening doesn't think I'm trying to you know cast aspersions towards San Diego Unified, which has had massive construction projects now for the past more than a decade.
Speaker 1:For the past more than a decade, three and $4 million a day at some point in projects just all over the district really to upgrade and build new on behalf of students, and the vast majority of them that I've seen have just have really been uplifting spaces. It's also really speaks to that whole collaborative piece that both of you have mentioned, because you've got, you know, you got a school district that is managing all these projects. You've got design teams. Obviously DLR group is just is one of many architectural firms working on all these different projects and I've just been impressed by some of the committees that I serve on looking at because it's all public information the change order rates during projects of 1% and 2%. I mean I challenge anyone to do a home remodel. Just try to renovate your kitchen and have only a 1% or 2% change rate. Most people are probably around 15% or 20%.
Speaker 2:And that's before they get a divorce because of all the stress.
Speaker 1:So there's this piece right like as you mentioned too, buddy of the responsible stewardship of public monies.
Speaker 2:I think too, you know Young mentioned that none of our designs look the same Right.
Speaker 2:I think too, you know Young mentioned that none of our designs look the same Right. And we really do try to listen to what those aesthetic goals are of a client as well. You know, for example, we worked on a small health sciences high school in Escondido and it had a biotech health science feel to it and it was a smaller school and we were challenged with creating a feel of a school that feels like a small biotech campus, so that when the high school students come onto campus they're experiencing what they might experience when they leave the school, either in a professional setting or in academics. And it's the same too, in in many of the high schools that we design we we often hear like wow, this feels like a college campus. It's the same, too, in many of the high schools that we design. We often hear like, wow, this feels like a college campus. It's intentional, sometimes because the school districts want the students to feel comfortable in those settings so that they're encouraged and comfortable to move on to secondary education as well as well.
Speaker 1:You've both spoken about the opportunities um in your profession and just the kind of the inside uh perspective on working with clients and all those things and being inspired and young talked about kind of letting the design kind of emerge through conversation. What's the biggest challenge? That that you guys face as architects and challenges don't have to be bad, but what's the biggest challenge?
Speaker 2:So there are many challenges in this profession, you know. Budgets number one.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:A lot of you know, not a bad thing, but many times A reality.
Speaker 2:Many times the programs far exceed the funds, and so you have budgetary challenges, you have schedule challenges. You know we're dealing with supply chain issues, we're dealing with labor shortages, escalation escalation playing a big part into budgets as well. And then a lot of times you have challenges from the community. Why are you making these changes to my school and my community? And so, like I mentioned before, through community-based planning, we're able to come to consensus in these planning sessions to prioritize what's most important for the project and for your community. And a lot of times you can't necessarily get everything that you want, but if you can have these open conversations in regards to planning and the various individuals and groups can hear from the other groups, then collectively the solutions emerge from that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when I think of challenges like, it's such a broad question, but you can probably put every single challenge either design phase or construction phase into one category for me, and that's communication, and whether it's communication with the client, communication with the community, communication with your own team internally, all the engineers and experts that you need to consult with, and then bringing that all in and synthesizing it in a rational way and then following back continuously with all those individuals and people to make sure that you've really gotten the best out of them and you're giving the best back to them, and both in design phase and in construction. That's just the constant challenge, that's the constant flow of making sure that you're doing right by the project.
Speaker 2:And then another challenge as the projects open and become occupied a lot of times, we sometimes see a disconnect between how the spaces were designed and how they were used Right. So again, communication, communication, right.
Speaker 1:And sometimes the people change too right and that's the big part of.
Speaker 3:It is like the pieces of the stories get replaced right and uh. The original people gave all that great insight and input. They leave and then you have different people with different opinions and different insights not necessarily more or less valuable, but just bringing them in and folding them into the conversation. It's just a continuous conversation that needs to get updated on many different like lanes, many different lanes.
Speaker 2:And it happens. It's a natural thing, right. I mean priorities change, new technologies emerge and things change and and space spaces get used in different ways. So you know it's important to plan and some flexibility so that you know the spaces can adapt and can can be used in different ways as teaching and learning evolves.
Speaker 1:Do architects focus on, pay attention to the whole orchid, onion, orchid versus onion award thing? Is that a thing, or do you guys just try to ignore it and not think about it when you're designing? I've always wondered that like they'll go. Oh, it's an onion.
Speaker 3:I'm not even sure who votes, but so for awards in general, uh, we, we don't ever think about like we want to win a specific award you. You know, after the project, as the project is being developed, and after the project is completed, you start to think about those things, but it's never a design driver, it's never a motivator within the project. That's not going to solve any problems for you, you know so but yeah, all architects think about awards.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what's one thing that the lay person does not know or understand about the real work of being an architect? Because I feel, I find that you know, I speak to a lot of different people from all different walks of life and you know, no matter what profession it is. There's the simplified public perception and then there's actually what really happens. Like I just interviewed a judge and I'm like what's the one thing we don't know about being a judge? And he goes. You know, when I close the door to my chamber I'm not taking a nap, I'm working, I'm reading for two hours to make sure that for the afternoon session I'm refreshed on what I read last night till 11 at night and like that never makes it into movies. What's the thing that never makes it into movies about being an architect?
Speaker 3:I don't know if I've seen many architecture movies.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's true, maybe we need some yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I think the perception is that architects design and draw and come up with all of these ideas. But there's a much broader spectrum. There's a technical side which people don't see spectrum. There's a technical side which people don't see. You know, all these drawings there come like 3,000 page project manuals of typed out instructions and direction on all the different products and all the systems that go on the building. So there's a technical side that people don't see.
Speaker 3:It's equally, if not more, important than the actual drawings Like this AC unit, this capacity, well, not even that.
Speaker 2:There's a written manual on top of the drawings. So there's a highly technical written portion of the architectural profession that people don't realize, that it's there.
Speaker 1:That you guys write or technology co-writes or you write yes.
Speaker 3:Technology co -writes, or you write yes, and for me, I think, if you're going to. So, now that I've thought about your question a little bit, I think probably what most people think of when they think of architects, is the stark architects right. So the ones that they know, the ones they know about right because of their grandiose designs, or just really beautiful and very impressive and grandly engineered designs, but they're not thinking about, you know, the strip mall down the street, or the jack in the box or schools, or maybe a custom house, but not you know, just any average building.
Speaker 3:Maybe a custom house, but not you know just any average building. So people just don't know about just the breadth of the practice and like what is all the different kinds of architects out there and all the different ways of practicing architecture, it's um, it, uh. I wish more people, especially young people, knew about that, because then it might be more encouraging for them to explore it as a possible profession and not be maybe intimidated by having to have great strokes of inspiration.
Speaker 3:And really it's more of a process and a journey of figuring out what the project needs to be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I think there's also a lot of invisible detail that people don't realize the work and the thought that goes into putting a building together, and what I mean by that is everything is thought through if it's a door frame, the placement of a fire extinguisher cabinet, the type of lock on the door. There's all this invisible design within the grand design, because we'll, we'll always be walking a site and we'll we'll look at something we like. Oh, I guess, that's guess, that's okay. No one will notice that, but us.
Speaker 3:But you yeah.
Speaker 2:And so there's a lot of invisible design that people maybe don't see when they occupy a space.
Speaker 3:For a good project.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 3:Sometimes there's an accident. But you know, yeah, there is a lot of that.
Speaker 1:So let's get to the light work-life balance piece. Oh, Because I actually probably should have thought about asking both of you this. I know from having worked with you on a current project that you seem to always be working, always be working. It seems like the detail both the having to zoom out to 30,000 feet and zoom into a third of an inch on every project all time and have all these demands like it's got to be tough. How do you balance that with your personal and family lives?
Speaker 3:For me it's been something I've developed very intentionally since I forever. I mentioned like my first job growing up was working in the family dry cleaners and I've always worked.
Speaker 3:I've worked since I was 11, like either dry cleaners or through college, and I've always had a job, never not had a job Except for two years. Two and a half years I took off between architecture jobs when my kids were about I think they were one and a half and three and a half years old I took a couple years off until my eldest got to kindergarten and that was also very intentional and a difficult choice to come by. It wasn't because I needed to, I just wanted to figure out how to be a mom and I knew it wasn't going to be the same kind of mom. My mom was post-war Korea, it was different and I wanted to still inhabit a lot of the things my parents gave to me and teach those things to my kids. But I also wanted to figure out what it meant to be a parent today, in the life that you know.
Speaker 3:My husband and I live together. So that meant that because architecture is my second career and I'm coming into it you know Buddy and I are almost the same age but he's got like 10 years on me in the profession and so for me taking that time off when I did was it felt like a huge risk, but it was really critical in me, kind of like forming as a parent and figuring out what it meant to go back to work. So when I went back to work, that was intentional as well. And now I had to think about how do I do it, how do I have a work-life balance? And that's in large part like possible.
Speaker 3:Like you said, the demands of the profession are large. I mean we, there is a lot of overtime, there is a lot of like constantly being on, but you just I just really intentionally manage that and the way that's possible is having a flexible workplace that trusts you and to get your stuff done and knows that you're a professional. That's half of it. The other half of it is having a really supportive partner and my husband at home and him also having a really flexible workplace.
Speaker 3:So we are just constantly tag teaming it. I mean, I've had every version of every work schedule imaginable in the last like 20 years and it's all been feasible because we've had reasonable workplaces that you know, trust us as professionals to take care of our, take care of our work and and we just like we're just all day, like all week, texting Like I have this meeting at this time, I have this meeting at that time. Okay, let's switch our Tuesday Thursday, let's cause we do pick up, drop off and the kids have the whole gamut of every activity, you know, after school. So we don't sacrifice that. But it is something that has to be intentionally managed, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think I have a good work-life balance, but in the end I have such a passion for the profession my brain never shuts off. So even when I go home, I'm still thinking of the issues and challenges that we face throughout the day and trying to problem solve those, find those. Even and you're probably guilty of this too even when you're walking around, you're critiquing and finding new ideas. I mean, your brain just never shuts off. It's 24 seven.
Speaker 3:Yes, I agree. However, for me, I've learned over the years that I have to. For me, I've learned over the years that I have to intentionally kind of compartmentalize and shut down so that I can be fully present for my family when I go home. So I kind of go through a mental shutdown sequence. I am turning this computer off and I'm about to do this, the drive home for me. I don't listen to anything. I don't listen to music, the news, nothing. I just try to think about like what I'm going to do when I get home and like it's almost like leaving new york time and flying a few time zones over and getting to island time. I'm trying to get into that space. So, yeah, that's how I, that's how I handle it.
Speaker 1:I'd imagine that the technology it's a blessing and a curse, as always, right Like back in the drafting days, you're not going to. Unless you have your own setup at home, you're not going to be drafting. It was not as seamless, perhaps, or maybe people just stayed at the office till 10 at night, but but now you know and I face this in my work like I'm all essentially always on unless I consciously turn off.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and after the pandemic we are all set up to work from home, right? So it's all. I can be equally as effective at home as I am in the office, given certain situations, so I think that's where the compartmentalizing all broke down.
Speaker 2:It was just, I'm just working all the time, and I'm an apparent all the time.
Speaker 3:Just keep going, keep going, keep going. But then after that, you know, I took some time to like set up some dividers again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what's so? First of all, I want to really thank you both for the generosity of your time. I just have a couple more questions. What's one dream project that you would like to work on before the end of your careers?
Speaker 2:I mean, if I think about a dream project, you know it's not a certain type or you know a certain budget, but I think it's working with clients that challenge us importantly. Maybe from a planning standpoint, is there something we can work on together that can help you and the teachers and the students in these buildings learn better, collaborate better and work together in a way. So we're really drawn to the more technically challenged projects, the projects that are hard to plan, that are extremely difficult, and we like working on those and digging in and finding those solutions that allow the clients and the districts and the teachers to find them solutions and spaces that help support them.
Speaker 3:I mean, I guess your own dream house would not count. I mean, I guess your own dream house would not count. I mean it could. But I think along the same lines as what Buddy mentioned. I think it's not really a specific project type but more of a project relationship, of having a really good relationship with a client that was maybe like this is my selfish thing but maybe primarily driven by design. It would have to be a project type where design was the main like motivating factor outside of, let's say, budget or time, which does not exist.
Speaker 3:That's why it's the dream project, that's right but I I think I'm just thinking about like, um, you know, our most successful projects are my. At least, the most success I've had in my experience with projects is when you have a really good, uh, trusting, relationship with with your client and you can it's. It's a safe space where you can discuss different ideas and possibilities and questions and concerns and then from that really strong relationship gets a really exciting design solution. We always have it in pieces with different clients, have it in pieces with different clients, but sometimes at the end of the day, other large like kind of there might be one specific priority that kind of cuts away at some of the other concerns you might have as an architect for a project and you just have to you just have to accept that, and you know, that's, that's how it is.
Speaker 3:So that's kind of what I think about in terms of a dream project.
Speaker 1:And the beauty of it is you get to drive around San Diego and the longer you're in the profession, you get to see more and more projects that you've worked on. That's got to be satisfying.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, most of the time right. Well, no, it is I know there's jokes about what happens when surgeons make mistakes compared to when architects make mistakes.
Speaker 3:No, I mean for me. Although I've been in the profession for a while, since it is my second career and the luck I've had, all my projects seem to be long, monster projects. So I have maybe less projects to look at than this guy here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it's definitely interesting to look back at all the projects we've had the opportunity to work on and to see the impact that we're able to have within the way education is delivered in Southern California in regards to teaching spaces, collaboration spaces, cte programs, all the different types of facilities that we've been lucky enough and challenged with to come up with design solutions on.
Speaker 1:I mean you've touched the lives of thousands of kids and many, many staff. That's pretty powerful. I have one last question for you. It's hypothetical and I'm not sure how you feel about billboards, because you're both design oriented people. I've had people go. I hate billboards and they're useless. I've had other people go. They should be banned. I've had other people go. Oh, I've already thought about this, but we'll take this separated by the two of you. But you have the opportunity to design a billboard for the side of the five freeway and it's your own personal billboard, own personal billboard. What does that billboard say to the world about what you feel is important in life, in your work and who you are as a person? I remember it's a billboard, so it's. We're driving by at 70, sometimes seven miles an hour, but usually 70. So what? What does your billboard say? Let's take buddy first, okay, sure?
Speaker 2:you know, I'd say you know everything that everybody does and experiences is hard as as you search for what you're looking for in life. So you know, I'd say follow your passion. You know I I didn't know that I wanted to be an architect, that I knew I wanted to be in the creative fields and it was interesting to me and it doesn't feel like work. So following that passion really makes the work that you do more fulfilling and less like work every day.
Speaker 1:Great, thank you. Follow your passion.
Speaker 3:So I had one thing that I was going to say, but then I have a counterpoint to what he was saying.
Speaker 1:We can give you two billboards.
Speaker 3:Oh, okay, my billboard would just say listen to each other with kindness. I just feel like that serves everybody in every situation. Yeah, everybody in every situation. Yeah, everybody in every situation. But, in contrast with what Buddy was saying, follow your passions. And I've been thinking about this more and more because my kids are approaching high school age and after high school is college, and right now they don't have any specific passions, and when I was growing up, I didn't have any specific passions, so it's more like be open-minded and actively explore you know just, you'll find something that's right for you.
Speaker 3:If you are intentionally looking, you know so, but it takes a lot of effort. But it takes a lot of effort. I have this analogy that I tell my kids. You know, do you think most people have love at first sight? They just like see someone and they're instantly in love with them and they get married, and that's a good thing. No, and it's the same for your profession. You're going to marry a career you know potentially and you want to date it. You want to search for it, you want to look for it and try things out and figure out. Maybe that's not for you and that was still a useful experience. You go on to something else, and you know so. For those of you without a passion, it's okay, You'll find it.
Speaker 2:You'll find it Date your passion date your career, yeah'll find it, you'll find it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, date your passion, date your career. Yeah, thank you so much, young buddy. Thank you for, most importantly for this, your service to students, for your time this afternoon, for coming in on a hot, muggy San Diego afternoon with no air conditioning here in the studio. I really, really appreciate your time. Thank you.
Speaker 3:Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the Superintendent's Hangout. You can follow me on Twitter at DVS1970. Please be sure to share this show with friends and family on social media and in the real world. Thank you to Brad Backeal for editing and production assistance and to Tina Royster for scheduling and logistics. Thanks for hanging out and have a great day.