Why is neurodiversity on the rise?

In this episode of D&I Digest, Henry and Teagan are joined by special guest Nadine for Neurodiversity Celebration Week.

You can read and watch the two articles we discuss here:
Why people are turning to social media for ADHD and autism 'diagnosis'
Why Has There Been a Rise in Autism and ADHD Diagnoses?

Our D&I Spotlights this month are both Instagram accounts. Molly Brooks-Dridge (@mollys_adhd_mayhem) and Lou (@neurodivergent_lou)

If you have a question for us, then you can submit it through this form.

Music used is:
Who Do You Think I Think You Are? by Mini Vandals

Transcript

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H: Welcome back to another episode of D&I Digest! I’m Henry and I use he/they pronouns. 

T: And I’m Teagan and I use she/her pronouns. We make up the Diversity and Inclusion team at Anchor, which is an organisation which specialises in housing and care for over 55s. And today we’re joined by Nadine Goodfellow as well, and in this episode we’re marking Neurodiversity Celebration Week which is celebrated worldwide between the 18th and 24th of March this year. It's an initiative that challenges stereotypes and misconceptions around neurological differences and aims to change the way that neurodivergent individuals are perceived and supported for the better. So welcome Nadine! 

N: Hi! Yeah, my name’s Nadine, my pronouns are she/her, I’m a senior solicitor in our legal team at Anchor. Yeah, I’m excited to be here this is a cause close to my heart as someone with neurodivergence and with many people close to me who are as well so I definitely like that we can celebrate it. 

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H: So we’ll jump in with our first article which is a video article from February 2023, and it’s called ‘Why people are turning to social media for ADHD and autism diagnosis’ by Ben Moore. So it talks about social media being the thing that for many people kicks off understanding and leads people to get official diagnoses. But it oversimplifies, and can lead to self-diagnosis, but it’s also filling a need where, due to things like the lengths of waiting lists, official methods have kind of failed. So in the article, a person called Molly Brooks-Dridge, who is an influencer, she makes sure to caveat her posts and obtain expert opinions to fact-check herself. She expresses worries that the social media trends are adding to the stigma of ADHD and autism being over-diagnosed rather than that stigma being taken away. In the article as well there’s someone called Bethan who was someone who saw something of herself in the videos and found a place in that community. She self-diagnosed, but wasn’t really comfortable with the possibility of over-stepping that and later sought a diagnosis. So she kind of talks about that complexity that comes with self-diagnosis. And lastly, we’ve got Tara Quinn-Cirillo, who is a psychologist, and she basically speaks in favour of getting an official diagnosis because it takes that broader approach, it considers co-morbidities, and obviously you’ve got the backing there and the support. Ben Moore obviously kind of takes a stance as a narrator with the whole thing but we’ve got kind of three different perspectives: one from an influencer on social media, I think she’s usually on Instagram, one from a psychologist, and one from a recipient of social media. So yeah, I suppose, any- any thoughts that we’ve got I suppose on the article? What did you think of it? 

T: I have got many thoughts. Many many thoughts. So, I think the first thing to say is that there is a much larger presence of talking around neurodiversity online, which I think can only be a good thing. I think for many years- well, put it this way – when you were at school, there was always the child with ADHD, right? There was always that kid who was told that they were majorly disruptive, they usually had a lot of negative behaviours according to the teachers, and they were always the child that was in the lower sets as well in terms of how they were thriving within the school. And I think that’s where a lot of the stigma that’s still around today comes from when we talk around neurodiversity, particularly with a focus on ADHD. But it’s the stigma around neurodivergent conditions where people still think we shouldn’t be taking to social media to talk more widely about this because it’s still so misunderstood.  

H: Yeah.  

T: And I think when people do start hearing about things more often and they’ve already got a pre-conceived idea of what those conditions look like, the fear starts to creep in. And it’s like “Well my child can’t possibly have ADHD, what do you mean everybody’s got ADHD? No, there’s no way that she’s autistic! Et cetera,” As the narrative goes. But surely we should be taking a step back from that and thinking “Well isn’t it great that we’ve now given people the space to talk about these types of conditions that have got, still to this day, negative connotations to them, and they’re so misunderstood?” Surely taking to social media can only be a good thing to spread that awareness? 

N: Absolutely, and I think that as part of that social media has helped to challenge that initial assumption that you mentioned people have about, you know, the unruly child in school or that sort of thing because it’s part of what’s contributed to people not realising until later in life that they might have an ADHD diagnosis so particularly in women, I’ve seen that there’s research to show that women are generally women and girls will mask a bit more which shows that they don’t display the ADHD behaviours in school, which means that that can fly under the radar and it might only be once they access this sort of content on social media that they think “Hang on a minute, there might be something here about me because I’ve never considered this because of that sort of stereotype of what ADHD looks like.” And I think that that means that when people do go underdiagnosed, it gives people a chance to really find out what is going on with them and what they might be able to put in place to make their own lives easier. 

T: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what do we think people’s fears are when it comes to seeing more people being diagnosed with autism and ADHD? 

H: I feel like one of the big fears is like “Oh no it’s going to get me as well.” Which, you know, I think there’s kind of some legitimacy to that because it means that you’ve suddenly got to question yourself and challenge the way that you’ve always done things. And also potentially the things that you’ve criticised others for but you manage them well so it’s okay. So I think there’s probably an element of that. And also having to be a bit more understanding of the world around you, and kind of going, "Well actually okay it’s not just naughty behaviour, it’s potentially the way that I acted that is contributing to this.” And I think that goes especially in schools with that oh actually maybe they’re not the naughty kid, actually the environment that’s been created is really unhelpful for them, so we’ve got to do something quite big and quite structurally different in order to help people. 

N: Yeah. And I think on that first point you said that around, you know, people thinking “Oh it might be me next,” I think that comes out in a lot of parents of people who are neurodivergent as well. With the increased awareness and the increased education that people have now on neurodiversity, parents will be seeing their child get diagnosed and think, “Oh actually these are behaviours that I can relate to and that I suffered in childhood. Or that I still suffer with now as an adult so does this mean that I have that condition as well?” Which then sort of challenges your sense of identity, and so it throws you into a bit of a loop of, “Well that can’t be right because I’m perfectly normal,” but it’s about challenging that and seeing it not as a bad thing but as a diversity. That’s why it’s neurodivergence rather than saying it’s something inherently wrong with you. So I think a broader understanding of that can only be helpful. 

T: I think it’s worth saying as well that – I think particularly with ADHD – the name gives it a bit of a bad rap. I mean if you break it down: Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder. To have ‘deficit’ and ‘disorder’ in the same sentence when you’re trying to describe the way that someone’s brain works is not particularly positive, is it? And I think it’s misunderstood a lot of the time that people with ADHD just can’t be bothered, or they’re completely disinterested, or they’ve just got so much energy that they can’t focus on anything, and actually what’s more likely is that someone with ADHD has special interests, and when they are able to engage in that special interest then they become something that we call ‘hyperfocused.’ Whereas if it's something that is, to them, a little bit dull and a little bit boring, that’s probably where you’re going to lose them, and you know what, actually, is there anything that wrong with that, really when you break it down? And I think particularly when you’re a child that is completely normal behaviour, isn’t it? When you’re small and you’re not that interested in something, to not engage with it frequently is absolutely fine. No one says anything about it. It’s only then when you get to adulthood and you’re expected to do things which you don’t find interesting, like that really lovely spreadsheet that’s been staring at you for about three hours, when you can’t find the motivation to engage with that, that’s potentially when you start to encounter some problems in your personal life and how you function in adulthood. 

N: Yeah, and I think that’s where some of the stigma comes from as well because going back to self-diagnosis, a lot of people can sometimes see that as, well neurotypical people might see that as, “Well it’s just because you want an excuse to not do this thing that you don’t want to do when, you know, everyone has to do things they don’t want to do.” But that betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how differently it works in an ADHD mind where it’s not just that you don’t want to do it, but it makes – the brain just shuts down and it makes it impossible to do, impossible to get up or do anything else, and so that element of people thinking that self-diagnoses might just be people coming up with excuses is what stigmatises people more out of assessing whether this is something they relate to and making it more widely known to them and their social circle. 

H: Yeah, I’m interested in what you were saying about potentially at school it’s less vital? And then in adulthood when you need to do the thing. I would argue potentially there’s an element of the other way around as well because in school there’s always going to be at least one subject that doesn’t interest you with the broad range of curriculum, but also as an adult I guess you can enter into your special interest a little bit more. 

T: Yeah, that’s true. 

H: Like you’re generally not going to go into accounting if you don’t like numbers. I would hope! And you’re not going to become a writer if you can’t sit down and write. So there are extents to which, actually I would argue that when you’re an adult things probably become a bit less noticeable because either, as you say, it’s stuff that, you know, everyone’s got to do, or you just don’t notice because you’re doing something that you’ve actually picked out and chosen so- 

T: Yeah, that’s true 

N: And I think that where that doesn’t come out is where we start to find issues with neurodiverse burn out as well. It’s where, especially with late diagnoses, people sort of think “Why is what I’m doing not working for me? Why do I find this so difficult? Why is my mental health declining?” And it’s only when that awareness comes out that there is some neurodiversity going on that you think, “Oh, this is why I find this so difficult, it’s because I'm trying to force myself to do something that my brain is not wired to do.” And it’s not to say that neurodiverse people get an excuse to only do things that they love and ignore everything else, that’s absolutely not the case, but it’s more to do with realising that there needs to be an element of interest to, you know, get that hyperfocus or to just keep that attention, but also looking after one’s own mental wellbeing in terms of making sure you are in the right role and that you do have the right support.  

T: Yeah. Absolutely. And, I mean the article itself is speaking about people turning to social media to get a diagnosis. Mmm, I mean, clickbait if ever there was one really, isn’t it? Because what’s actually happening is people are talking about their experience as someone with ADHD or who has Autism Spectrum Disorder and actually people are relating to those types of behaviours and  they’re like “Oh hang on a second, this might answer a lot of the questions I’ve had about myself for the last x amount of years.” And I think actually it would be silly of us not to talk about the elephant in the room in that, okay, fine, get a formal diagnosis: where are you getting that from? Where are you getting that from, how long are you waiting for that diagnosis? 

H: Exactly that, yeah. 

T: And if you’re not someone who’s got private healthcare or access to funds where you can go and pay for a private diagnosis, where does that leave you? 

H: Or also the knowledge that you can get one? Like it’s all very well kind of sitting there and going “My brain is working in this specific way” but actually if that never clocks that “Oh, that’s a neurodiversity!” then you’re not going to think to go and talk to the doctor about being distracted through your work, because you’re probably just thinking “Oh that’s something that happens to everybody.” 

N: And you know people with ADHD or people with Autistic Spectrum Disorder, it means that there might be some social anxieties at play there that mean that self-diagnosis is more comfortable, or that someone might feel incredibly uncomfortable going and talking about these, at times, very vulnerable topics with a stranger like a doctor. And I think you’re absolutely right, in terms of access to diagnoses, it’s very easy to say, “You know, just go ahead and do this” when there are people who, like Henry said, might not have the sort of the education and awareness to do that or people who don’t have the funds to access it because I think they talk in the article as well about how on the NHS it can take years to get a diagnosis. And in that meantime, people would otherwise be in limbo thinking, “Well, do I relate to this, do I not?” and then maybe feeling like they don’t have the right to access the support they need for being neurodiverse because they haven’t got that piece of paper that says that, you know, you’re entitled to this. So I think self-diagnosis can – it really does help in terms of just making sure that people’s wellbeing is looked after in the time until they can get a diagnosis, or if you’re in a situation where you just can’t do that. 

T: Yeah. I agree 

H: And that’s, that was kind of what the article was suggesting as well, is that actually social media talking about all of this is a useful tool. With anything, it’s not going to be the be all and end all, like there’s probably going to be other factors contributing to self-diagnosing, but it’s something that opens that conversation like Teagan you were saying earlier, it’s that kind of initial prompt to go, “Oh I do relate to that. Oh that’s an autism thing? Interesting!” And it then kind of gives you those prompts, those questions that you can either use or not use as you see fit. And at the end of the day, that’s an individual’s decision, surely? So long as it’s not causing harm, like, Molly Brooks-Dridge was really conscious of spreading misinformation, but she’s one of the people who’s giving this out and being an influencer for a living, so I would argue potentially that she does have a bit of that responsibility to kind of say “Well actually no I’ve fact-checked this. This is right.” But actually if that’s helping people even just think about themselves then surely that’s only a good thing. 

T: Yeah, absolutely. 

N: Because the “danger” in air quotes that people see of self-diagnosis is like well you might be wrong, you might not have any of this. But to a certain extent, I don’t really think that matters because even if someone identifies with some of the traits and thinks, you know, maybe I do have autism, maybe I do have ADHD, as long as they’re able to use those tools for those particular traits to help themselves, you know, socially, or in the workplace, or whatever, like you say Henry, it does no harm so who are we to begrudge these people from seeking that comfort where they can? 

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H: For our second article we’ve got an academic article from Psychology Today, from July 2023, and it’s called ‘Why has there been a rise in ADHD and autism diagnoses?’ So it gives four main reasons for this. The first one is that increased awareness and improved diagnostic practices means that essentially people are able to identify it accurately earlier and therefore provide support earlier. The second reason is breaking down stigma and promoting acceptance, so actually the rise in accurate diagnoses means that more people are feeling empowered and therefore advocate for it so we’re seeing a snowball effect of an increase. The third reason is actually access to resources and support, supply and demand has increased. And the fourth one is advances in research and understanding because neurodiverse people are being called in to be a part of that process, which in turn is helping non-stereotypical presentations of neurodiversity be accepted. There’s also a push to work with the individual rather than working towards conformity of "This is what we’ve established autism to look like” or “ADHD to look like”. So the conclusion for this article was, “The rise in autism and ADHD diagnoses reflects a positive shift in society's understanding and acceptance of neurodiversity... By embracing neurodiversity and celebrating the unique strengths and talents of neurodivergent individuals, we create a more inclusive and compassionate society that values the diversity of human minds.” 

T: Lovely! 

H: Very sweet ending, isn’t it? 

T: That’s nice, isn’t it! Yeah, I think this article touches on a number of things that we’ve spoken about in the previous article around that increased awareness, and therefore people feel like they can go and seek that diagnosis, they know where to go for it because the information’s available, and that really big point there about support and resources because they are coming out your ears these days. It’s great, isn’t it? Like there’s an app for everything usually, which is very helpful. I don’t know about you two but I absolutely live and die by my Google calendar. If it’s not in the calendar it is not happening. 

N: Yep! 

T: And it’s things like that where you can start to put tools in place to help you with your autism or your ADHD or whatever neurodivergent condition you’ve got and people are so much more willing to talk about that and share their experiences of how they’ve overcome the barriers with their diagnosis and with their condition. So I think this is good, this is great! 

H: Yeah, it really leans into the neurodiversity celebration week of this one, doesn’t it? You know, yeah, there’s maybe some people talking about overdiagnoses but actually if those diagnoses are legitimate and helping people, then surely that’s what we need to focus on and not the numbers. Because actually if, you know, society is just generally more autistic, cool, we need to adapt to that. 

N: Yeah. And that’s what happens generally with more marginalised or over-looked groups, it’s that once the understanding and the awareness and the acceptance comes out, there is seen to be a statistical rise, but it will even out because it’s not actually that, you know, there are more people with autism or ADHD, it’s that those people are now more comfortable to come forward to get those diagnoses. So actually there’s so many more people who are neurodiverse who are contributing to society in just slightly a different way to neurotypical people. 

H: Yeah, and it’s bringing the differences in the way that we’re doing things. Like for example with the Google calendar, there are now so many different features that you can add in, and I mean I’m a sucker for a colour-coding- 

N: Oh yeah 

H: But that won’t work for everybody, but the fact that it exists hasn’t taken away from anybody else, it’s just made life a little bit easier for the people it works for. So actually, yeah more people are being diagnosed either officially or unofficially, but that’s not taking away from anybody. 

T: A really good point there actually that I want to pull out. So conversations around what accessibility tools look like and if they’re only available for people who have got neurodivergent conditions or a disability for example that has this requirement for an accessibility tool it’s obviously very siloed and limited. However, if you make those tools available to everyone, so say you have this organisation and actually you lift the blanket on saying "Right, everybody can access these tools now, go and use them as you see fit,” the data tells us that you actually see an increase in productivity across the organisation. And that’s because even if people aren’t neurodivergent or they don’t have a disability where accessibility is a barrier for them, people having the tools to work better and more efficient increases productivity. It’s a no-brainer when you say it out loud but actually it’s not happening. It’s not happening in workplaces, we’re still going through this reasonable adjustments process to gain speech to text kind of tools and things like that, but actually if people just had them readily available, it’d be quite interesting to see how well that worked. So yeah, I just thought that was a really interesting point about how you can add features and it can be useful for absolutely everybody. 

H: So for things like pavements where they go down to cross the road. Like, obviously that’s going to be really helpful for wheelchair users, it’s also helpful for people with really heavy suitcases, and prams, and rollerbladers! Like it’s not restricting anybody. You don’t get anyone kind of walking up to a pavement and going “Where’s the step?!” Everyone is fine with this. But like how you mentioned the text to speech things, and I used to know someone who used speech to text in the car to write reports on her way home. And so, like you say, it’s not just neurodiverse people who are benefitting from these, actually it’s just making us be a bit more imaginative in the way we work and use those tools. 

N: Absolutely, and reasonable adjustments in particular, like you say having them just widely available as standard, it really helps with again what I touched on earlier in terms of neurodiverse people, you know, seeking diagnoses and maybe feeling anxious about doing that, or maybe they’re feeling unable to do that, it’s the same thing for reasonable adjustments. It requires someone, if it is a part of a structure that you need to apply for and justify, then the people who are perhaps self-diagnosed and don’t feel confident coming forward and saying “I think I need these adjustments,” if it’s just there, like you say, people can benefit from it even if they don’t have sort of neurodiveristy. But then if people do and simply don’t feel comfortable approaching someone officially to say “I need this” then it just allows them to take those steps to keep their you know, their wellbeing their productivity in check without necessarily having to go through what could be a quite stressful experience.  

T: Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of stressful experiences I wanted to just open up the conversation around actually getting a diagnosis and some of the questions that you get asked when you are seeking a diagnosis. I think some of them are filled with irony, and myself and Henry have definitely had conversations before around hypotheticals - “Would you rather go to the club, or the library?” I’m going to need some more here, like that is not enough to go on, is it? What kind of music’s being played? Am I going with friends? What’s in the library? Where is the library? Am I going to have to get public transport? There’s too many variables here for me to just make a decision on whether going to the library is my preference or going to the club is my preference. Like it’s just, it’s not, like that is just not how it works. 

N: Yeah so I’ve seen some feedback and heard from people who are in the sort of psychology profession that a lot of the time those, what seem to be very frustrating, questions are designed to sort of draw out of you that, you know, that frustrated response, that idea that well “I don’t have all of the information, how can I possibly make a decision on this?” Because that is, that can be in itself a signpost that there is some kind of you know, ADHD or autistic thinking going on where it’s like “I need all of the context to be able to decide on this. It depends, this is much too black and white,” whereas oftentimes someone who’s neurotypical might just say “Well, obviously the club, what they’re saying is that the club is really busy and social, whereas the library’s really quiet and introverted” but you might not make that connection as someone with a neurodivergence. And so I think it’s quite interesting that that can be part of how they diagnose you is both getting your answer to that question, but also seeing how you react to the question itself. 

H: Interesting as well because you often hear that autistic people are very black and white thinkers, whereas actually you’ve almost got evidence of the opposite in terms of actually if you’re looking at this question and going “Well I understand what that means, I’ll take it at face value.” 

N: Yeah I guess it is a contradiction but then I guess if you’re thinking about you know autistic people are black and white thinkers, obviously it’s a massive over-generalisation, not everyone presents the same, but for example I know that sometimes it can be "Well yes there will be a black and white answer, but I need to have all the information to be able to decide what my answer is, and once I get there, that is the answer.” But I think that, like you say, it’s that danger of over-simplification. If someone’s just heard ‘autistic people are black and white’ then it’s like “Well then they should have no problem with this question” but it shows that the specialists are thinking “Well you know what, there is more nuance to this” which can be a sign that, you know, education and research is moving on which is a good thing. 

T: And I think you’ve got to consider compounding factors as well when you’re looking to get a diagnosis, because as you’ve said Nadine, when you’re a woman or a girl, there’s every opportunity that you’ve probably masked a lot of your life, so trying to get a diagnosis is usually a lot more difficult and I was scrolling through social media the other day and there was a conversation around autism spectrum disorder and one person said, one woman said, “Oh well I got told I couldn’t possibly have autism because I can maintain eye contact.” And then you start rolling your eyes and thinking “Okay so we’re still very much in a place in our society where we think that autism and ADHD only present in a certain way, and that if you don’t present like that it’s not possible for you to be neurodivergent, which is just nonsensical.  

H: Yeah and added to the fact that all of those tests initially to determine autism were on young boys, or specifically young white boys in the Western countries, so obviously they’re going to be a huge generalisation because firstly it’s a very much product of its time, secondly it’s a product of their upbringing and yeah, you get to a point where anyone who was raised as female is going to be, obviously, outside of that expectation. Or even if you’re considering like co-morbidities, or just different situations that maybe require someone for example to need to use eye contact as a tool, actually maybe that just slightly overtakes the aversion to it. There’s so much in there. 

N: Yeah and I think even if we take it away from women and girls as well it’s - on the co-morbidities point, even like young white boys who don’t get diagnosed until later in life, sometimes that can be because, you know, maybe they’ve got a home environment where they feel like they have to mask more, they couldn’t be themselves, or maybe they have some external factors, some anxiety, like it could be anything that means that somewhere along the line in their development their brain has gone “Right we need to hide that I am this way in order to get by socially, in order to get ahead, to succeed, to whatever the motivation is.” So yeah, it is dangerous to think that it only applies in certain ways because there’s a saying I’ve seen often in the community which is, you know, if you’ve met one person with autism, you’ve met one person with autism. It’s entirely different for everyone. 

T: Yep. 

H: And kind of on the flipside to that as well, if you are neurodiverse and you’ve been brought up in a really useful environment like your family, your friends, your guardians, they’re all super familiar with it, they’ve helped you put in place all of the steps that you need to manage, then actually maybe you don’t need a diagnosis. So there’s kind of a flip side to it as well that actually if you put all of the tools in place and equip society to manage that then this “overdiagnosis” in inverted commas will probably even out to an extent. 

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H: Wonderful, so with that finished off, we’re going to move onto our spotlight section which is where we’ve picked out a couple of individuals in the public eye to shine a spotlight on. So our first one of those is Molly Brooks-Dridge, who we’ve mentioned a couple of times. She featured in the first article, she has an Instagram which is @mollys_adhd_mayhem and she’s essentially an influencer but she uses her platform to educate people about ADHD and, yeah, she’s really reliable, she uses fact-checked sources, she’s a very interesting person to listen to as well. So she is our first spotlight, and Nadine, you have our second. 

N: Yes, so I’d like to spotlight, so there’s an Instagram which is @neurodivergent_lou, that’s ‘L-O-U'. So she, I believe, identifies as autistic and she produces these sort of bitesize little slideshows that are just, you know, plain text bullet point kind of information that’s really helpful, but I think it’s particularly aimed at people who already identify as autistic so it has things such as, you know, ‘These are the signs of autistic burnout,’ ‘These are things you can do to help that if you do have these bullet-pointed signs’ and so I think it’s a really useful resource for people who just want to very quickly, you know, as it comes up on your feed, update their knowledge on how they can support themselves better, so I think it’s a really good one.  

H: Wonderful, so you can find those in our description below, we’ll post some links to those as well.  

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H: So let’s move onto our FAQ section. In our first one we’re really leaning into the ‘celebration’ this time, kind of lift up the conversation here! First question is: What are some of the best things about being neurodiverse for you? 

N: Well for me, I think it’s, a lot of the time it’s the hyperfocus. I think we’ve mentioned it before but we’ve not really expanded on it so sometimes a person with ADHD or autism if they enter into hyperfocus it can mean that, you know, they’re working on something and they get so engrossed into it that you just sort of full steam ahead, everything’s working super super fast, and you can really get very productive things done in quite a short amount of time. And I think certainly in my role, a lot of things involve, you know, some deep analysis of a contract or something, and then if I get really really into it, a lot of the time I can find myself so focused that I’ll complete the task, and I’ll look up at the clock and it’s been three hours and I’ve not felt it at all.  And that can feel really empowering because it feels like, you know, you’ve really gotten into something, you’ve used your own experience to just get it done, and that can feel really good just because of knowing that it’s something about your neurodivergence that really does help you and it does feel very satisfying.  

H: So I really like, kind of similarly to yours, but the special interest thing because partly when I find somebody else who understands that it’s just a conversation of lectures, and there is something so satisfying about just being like “Right, sit down and listen to everything I know about ‘Les Misérables,’ and you will listen! And then you’re going to exchange that with everything you really enjoy!” And there’s just something really bright about those conversations where someone is so interested just, potentially about the strangest thing or the most niche area, but there’s such pure like, unadulterated interest, and it’s so lively to have those conversations and it’s really- 

N: And it’s so joyful as well because there’s nothing quite like seeing someone talk about something they’re very very passionate about. And I think with special interests, you know, by nature people are very very passionate about what they’re talking about. And it’s a learning experience as well, like by listening to someone who’s talking about their special interest you can learn things that you’d never even know just because this person has really gone into it, and it’s great. I think it’s really good to, and quite bonding as well? When you’re sort of a part of two neurodivergent people talking about, you know, like you say, taking turns to do their own lecture on their special interest, it’s just, yeah really good having someone who understands just how into something you can be. 

H: You’ve got a community of free TED Talks, what’s not to love about that? 

T: I am evidently struggling with this question, and I think there’s a variety of reasons for that. I think this is all very new to me. Understanding the way that my brain works was only really highlighted to me when I was actually doing a piece of research for the organisation, so that was a really really strange thing to go through to be honest. And I’d always known that I was a little bit quirky, and I’d always known that I like things done in a particular way, and I had this really like strong sense of justice and I just couldn’t ever put my finger on why I felt like I sort of stuck out like a sore thumb for a variety of reasons. But I think if I’m focusing on the best bits about being neurodivergent I would have to say, and this might surprise a lot of people, my childlike nature. I absolutely love being a big kid. I really do. I was off work a couple of weeks ago and I was running some errands and I went to grab myself a coffee and then across the way I spotted that there was a park and there was no one on the swings. And I was like “I’m gonna go have a swing on there.” And I could just see people walking past me thinking, “Well, there’s clearly something not quite right with her,” and I’m just there, legs up in the air, and it was just such a childlike freeing moment that genuinely made me feel joy. And I think that when you’re an adult, you kind of have to put that in a box, actually, and you’re told that’s not the way that adults behave, you can’t go out and buy a new stuffed toy, that’s not what adults do, no you can’t go play on the swings, that’s not what adults do, stop splashing in puddles when you go for a walk, that’s what children do. And actually, I just don’t subscribe to that and I kind of really lean into it. And it was only really after I’ve figured out around the neurodivergency that was an element of it. So yeah, I guess I would say that was the best thing for me.  

N: I guess it’s part of the freeing nature of knowing that you already operate differently from a lot of people in part. 

T: That’s interesting. 

N: And so you already know like, you know, people are going to sometimes think I’m a bit strange, people are going to think oh there is something a bit odd about her, and so, you know, it gives you that freedom to just go and do what you want a lot of the time because you have that childlike nature, that joy, and it’s like oh, where one might think “Oh if I go swing on the swings, like, people are going to think I’m weird so I’m not going to do that,” and I think sometimes, if you’re used to just standing out a little bit, you get those opportunities to go and partake in that kind of joy. And I think it is a lovely thing to do. 

T: I never thought of it like that, that’s really interesting.  

H: Commit to the bit – You're going to think I’m weird? Well then, here we go! 

T: I can top it, I can top that one, believe me! Great, okay, um, and then the second question that’s come in today has been: How can I support those who are neurodivergent? 

H: That is a huge question. 

T: Yeah. 

N: I think one of the main things for me is to, going back to you know, if you’ve met one person you’ve met one person, I think it’s listening to that particular individual about what they, in particular, need support with. Because I think it can be easy to put everything under an umbrella, it’s like “Well you’ve got this diagnosis and so this is the framework with which we can support you.” I think it’s listening to that one particular person who would say like, "You know what, I don’t have issues with –I don’t know- speaking to people, putting myself out there, but here are the things that I do find very difficult and that I do need support with," and I think that it’s really tailoring it to the individual as opposed to seeing it as a label can really help, because you should really only be led by the person you are trying to support. 

H: Yeah, definitely, and trusting them as well. Like there are often a lot of times unfortunately where, like you say, someone’s kind of said “I’m autistic or I’ve got ADHD” and that support is kind of pushed on them. So when they say, “No, actually, I don’t need that,” it’s a “Well you can’t be autistic then, or you can’t have ADHD.” 

T&N: Yep, yeah. 

H: So I think that element of, as you say, kind of trusting that individual and really listening to them. And believing them, as well.  

N: And I think some of it is you know, accommodations, like thinking about the workplace for example, not assuming that the neurotypical way of doing things is the correct approach for everyone. It’s sort of goes back to what we were saying about having options available for all. So things like interviews being conducted in a different way because people with neurodivergence can really struggle with the structure of an interview and the stress of that situation, and just sort of  making it open to all candidates of like “We can do interviews this way, or we can do it this way.” Or just like opening things up so that a lot of the time people don’t need to ask for that. So it absolutely goes back to what we were saying about having those resources available to everyone because then it just enables people to make their own decisions about what would work best for them. 

T: And actually just staying on the workplace, and around how to support neurodivergent colleagues in the workplace. I think it’s important to remember that office environments in particular can be a bit of a sensory nightmare. They’re often quite bright, they’re often open plan and loud, they’re often full of people, yeah. So I think there are a lot of elements actually where an office might cause neurodivergent people a bit of stress. And I think if that is the case, try and make space for things like quiet areas, and try and make space for people to take regular breaks, and just sort of recalibrate throughout the day because it can be very overwhelming. In the same breath, though, if you’ve got the type of work environment where you do have all of that in place, then you’ll probably see your neurodivergent colleagues thriving, actually, in the workplace, because on the flip-side of that, if you’ve got a lot of home workers that might be really isolating and it might not provide the right amount of socialisation for someone with neurodiversity. Like you say, to actually drive home the points that you’ve both made already, it’s really individual. You have to ask that person for what they need, and I’m sure they’ll give you the right steer on how you can best support. 

MUSIC 

H: Cool, so thank you for joining us for this episode of D&I Digest, it’s been a really interesting conversation. Really enjoyed it, and found out lots of new things, actually! And it’s been really great to have had you, Nadine, as well, so thanks.  

N: Nah, it's been really great to be here, thank you for inviting me. 

H: So remember that you can follow us on our website and on social media, and we hope that you’ll come back and listen in next month too. So, bye from me. 

T: And bye from me, happy neurodiversity celebration week! 

N: And bye from me, bye! 

H: Bye!