Why do we need diverse role models?

In this episode of D&I Digest, Teagan and Henry discuss representation, and the importance of diverse representation in our role models and in institutions.

You can read the two articles we discuss here:
Race Across the World star wants to see more black swimmers - BBC News
West Yorkshire Police: More work needed on diversity says policing boss

Our D&I Spotlight this month is director Peter Hoar. You can listen to the interview Teagan references here.

If you have a question for us, then you can submit it through this form.

Music used is:
Who Do You Think I Think You Are? by Mini Vandals

Transcript

T: Welcome back to episode 4 of D&I Digest! 

H: I’m Henry, I use he/they pronouns. 

T: And I’m Teagan, I use she/her pronouns. And we make up the Diversity and Inclusion team at Anchor, which is an organisation that specialises in housing and care for over 55s. The last couple of episodes have been quite event specific, with discussion around LGBT+ History Month and Neurodiversity Celebration Week, so this month we’re broadening out a little bit and talking about representation. For me, representation means when I can see myself clearly represented by the world and the communities around me. It’s seeing people that look like me and probably have similar lived experiences, and being able to relate to them more than the people who don’t look like me and have lived my experiences. 

H: Yeah, and being able to trust that, whether or not you can see them, that those experiences are existing in the vicinities and in the room, or been influenced by people. 

T: Yeah, and I think we’ve seen companies try to do this a lot better over the years, especially when you think of like adverts, particularly Christmas adverts, and you see a variety of people represented now, whereas before it would, 

H: Very homogenous. 

T: Yeah a very homogenous group. It wouldn’t feel like you were seeing the broader community represented in those types of adverts. 

H: Yeah, it felt very Hallmark cards 

T: Yes, for sure. And I think generally when we talk about representation now we’re not just talking about TV and media, we’re also talking about in workplaces too because it’s really important to be able to see yourself reflected at every level in an organisation and I know that organisations are working really hard on that to get the balance right these days. I think when we talk about representation as well, we’re usually talking about um visual characteristics. 

H:: Yeah 

T: But what about representation for someone who’s from the LGBTQ community? Because sometimes people- you can’t outwardly see someone’s sexuality, can you, so how does that look? 

H:  So I think, and this is interesting with things that you can’t necessarily see, because I think it’s relevant as well for things like neurodiversities or invisible disabilities. And I think moreso for LGBTQ identities I think, um, there’s an element of signalling that you can use. So for example, if you see someone with a rainbow badge, there’s kind of a level of, not necessarily assumption, but there’s a signpost there to a particular trait. It’s an interesting one though because you really carefully have to toe the line of stereotyping. 

T: Yeah, 100% 

H: And queer coding. 

T: Yes.  

H: And actually we’re just trying to make something that’s invisible visible for those who need to see it. And I think those two things can exist in tandem, I think you’ve just got to be very conscious of it, and I think what you were saying earlier about kind of using more diverse people in adverts, for instance, especially with kind of TV adverts, you can create that narrative, like if you show, for example, two masculine presenting people in a relationship, you’re like “Okay, well that’s some gay representation there.” 

T: That’s a really good example actually yeah, 

H: Yeah, and you can back it up with what they’re doing, how they’re acting, their body language. 

T: Sure 

H: If you’ve got a picture, you can’t do that in the same way because you’ve just got two blokes standing next to each other, which could be anything! So yeah, I think there’s often an element of how and why that narrative is being constructed, and how it’s being portrayed, and I honestly don’t think there’s a really good answer for it. I think consideration is really good though. Yeah. 

T: Okay, great. 

MUSIC 

T: Our first article then, is titled ‘Race Across the World star wants to see more Black swimmers’. And this was from a man called Ladi Ajayi, and he was a contestant in the program ‘Race Across the World’. He’s a sportsperson, actually. He’s 52 years old, he does a lot of sailing, swimming, and he trekked across Canada in the competition itself, highly recommend watching the show if you haven’t already, it is a- it is a good watch. He goes on to say that “There aren't that many people from diverse communities that actually engage in the sport, even though plenty of people do swim, can swim, they don't necessarily have the opportunity.” He actually advocates for “more Black and Brown people and people with disabilities” to go swimming and engage in these types of activities. He also says in the article that he’s been to some of these regattas and people at them have “never seen a Black person in their life,” which is just really difficult to wrap your head round actually, yeah, it really is. And he goes on to say that including the communities is really important, it’s not just talking to them for the sake of it, they’ve actually got to be participating in coming up with solutions to these obvious barriers. So, what do we think about that? 

H:  I’m going to pick out the bit at the end actually, the kind of the talking about going to these events and people had never seen a Black person before, which actually I-  instinctively now kind of react very like “Oh wow!” But actually thinking back there was probably a time where I was in a very similar position which I find really interesting now, that space had been fostered in that way. 

T: Sure. 

H: And I think now with my awareness of “That was a conscious decision”. I mean, perhaps not a conscious exclusion, but definitely a conscious decision not to do anything about it.  

T: Yeah. This is an interesting one for me because I’ve kind of lived with these stereotypes all my life, as a Black woman. You are told by both Black people in your community and people outside your community of these really silly stereotypes about Black people not being able to swim, about Black people not engaging in winter activities like skiing, you know, we just don’t do that kind of thing, that isn’t for Black people. Which is just so exclusionary, massive stereotype, not true at all, and when I grew up a little bit, what I actually came to understand about all this was that it’s not that Black people can’t swim, it’s that they’ve not been given the right access and opportunity to learn. And that’s why you see less Black people and Brown people in that space. It’s nothing to do with ability, it’s to do with access. And I think that’s very much what Ladi’s getting at, you know, he’s saying that people can swim and do swim, they just aren’t being welcomed into those spaces in the right way, where we don’t make those assumptions that Black and Brown people don’t do this, because that’s just really quite harmful as well to those communities. And it can feel like you’re never going to strike the right balance and you’re never going to feel that sense of belonging within those activities as well. 

H: Yeah. I remember once I must have been fairly young, when there was a Black swimmer in the Olympics, I remember kind of hearing from specific places, “Oh, the reason you don’t see many Black swimmers is because bone density is different” Yeah! And for so many years I fully believed that. That was all I knew. 

T: Why wouldn’t you? If someone’s telling you that, and they believe it themselves, like they’re not trying to feed you any- 

H: Yeah, it was coming from authority. 

T: Totally, they’re not trying to feed you something to trick you, that’s genuinely what they believe. And unfortunately this comes from really massively harmful stereotypes around Black people back from the Atlantic slave trade when medicine and medical procedures were being practised on Black people and it was a great way to separate and other Black people from White people. Because if you, you know if you perpetrate this idea that they are fundamentally different on a biological level, it is very easy to create a bit of a - 

H: Us and them. 

T: Yeah, absolutely. 

H: Dehumanising as well. 

T: One hundred percent. That’s what it was about. It was about that dehumanising element of saying “This group of people are different. And they are so different, they’ve got things-” 

H: “It goes right down to bone structure.” 

T: Absolutely. So that is still very much a stereotype that exists today, I still hear it today. It is fundamentally incorrect, it is not true. 

H: Mythbusting! 

T: Totally, and the reason that those stereotypes continue to permeate is because of representation! It’s because you don’t see it. So if you don’t see it, it’s easier to believe those stereotypes because no one’s pushing against them. 

H: Yeah. And I think it is kind of something- especially as like a white person to kind of actually think about what I saw as a child and go “Wow I really believed that because that was the narrative that was portrayed to me,” and again, there’s that kind of awareness that that’s a conscious decision that someone crafted, like you say, in order to other someone or a group of people or whatever it might be, and actually, I personally don’t remember how I found out that was a lie? And that in itself concerns me because I don’t remember being told “That's a lie.” 

T: Sure 

H: I think it must have been that I Googled it one time and got lost in a rabbit hole or something, but again, like that’s concerning. 

T: Yeah, massively.  

H: Yeah, so there was a survey conducted in 2020 by Sport England, and it essentially reported that 95% of black adults and 80% of black children did not swim. 

T: Wow. 

H: Which is- 

T: Wow. 

H: Yeah! Especially when you kind of consider the fact that swimming is usually something that kind of happens in schools? 

T: Yeah! I was under the impression that it was kind of part of the curriculum. 

H: Yeah, I was 

T: Am I wrong? You come from a teaching background, Henry, you tell us! Is it part of the UK curriculum that children learn to swim? 

H: I will be totally honest, I tried to avoid the sports element of anything 

T: Was that not your vibe? 

H: Not my vibe 

T: Okay, fine 

H: But I’d assumed, rightly or wrongly, that was something that was covered in most state sport lessons? 

T: So strange because I, I agree with you. This is really shocking to me. Really shocking. And I grew up in a predominantly white area so maybe my view of this is quite warped actually. 

H: That’s what I’m thinking actually. 

T: And I was- myself and my cousin were the only two Black girls in the school. Only two Black people, not even girls. Black people in school, and that remained pretty consistent up until I got to Year 10, I believe. But for me, it must be an access thing because my school was next to swimming facilities. So I wonder if- 

H: That enabled it? 

T: Yeah, so I wonder if the only reason that was part of my PE lessons, why that was incorporated into my schooling is because of access. And I’m not sure about the situation in London, for example, I don’t know how many schools within the city also have swimming baths. And when we look at the demographics of the UK, look at our big cities where we’ve got uh a very diverse population of Black people in cities like London and Birmingham, for example, is it that those schools in those cities are nowhere near swimming baths because they’re in cities. 

H: Yeah. And that’s not why they were built in the first place. 

T: Exactly. And that’s why then, that we’re seeing a large number of children, Black children, not being able to swim. It must be something to do with access. 

H: Well actually I was thinking as well while you were talking, why else people don’t go swimming at school. But like you often get people kind of skipping out on, particularly swimming lessons, because of expectations. And whether that’s a body image expectation, or a confidence thing, or young people on periods, like whatever it might be, people aren’t often willing to get into swimwear in a – within a group of people that might laugh at them. So actually I wonder whether there’s also an element of that in terms of well, if white people are the majority, anyone that looks different will probably be feeling that, even more intensely, I imagine? 

T: Yeah, that’s an interesting point actually as well. And one of the things that I can draw on from my experience was hair. I probably only did these mandated swimming lessons with my school probably twice, and the rest of the time I would make my excuses not to do them. And, to be honest, the large driving factor for me was my hair. So, my hair is curly, it is probably a lot drier than other people’s hair, like someone who’s white and doesn’t have curly hair. I have to spend a lot of time putting the right products in my hair and treating it in the right way, it takes a lot of time. And because of that, I was never given the time to wash my hair properly, to treat my hair properly, to get the comb through it, to dry it... We’re talking an hour long process here, and I think if you’re someone who’s got hair like me, and usually that’s someone who’s Black or Brown, it’s an extra barrier. And you might be sat there thinking to yourself, Henry, why didn’t you just wear a swimming cap? Well, I’ll tell you why: I couldn’t get my hair in them because they don’t make them big enough. 

H: Yeah, I have, or used to have when I was a child anyway, very big, curly hair. And I hated swimming for a very similar reason. So I’m just trying to imagine – because we were also told to wear swimming caps, at which point I was like “Mine broke. I snapped it.”  

T: “I can’t get this absolute massive bush hair in a tight swimming cap!” 

H: “I’ve got a bird’s nest here!” 

T: Can’t be done.  

H: But yeah no, I’m trying to imagine all of that escalated. Because actually, you know, my hair took ages to dry, but it wasn’t damaged if I didn’t look after it, like it’s fine, it got over itself, we’re good! But actually if that’s not an option, you’re told to get out of the pool and into your next lesson in five minutes! That’s never going to occur! 

T: It’s not enough time. 

H: Yeah.  

T: Not enough time at all. So I think that – well I don’t think that was a massive barrier, I know that was a massive barrier for me, and I know that it has been a massive barrier for people that I’ve spoken to about swimming in the past, especially from diverse backgrounds. So I think there’s that. I think you’re absolutely right with the idea of body image, not looking like your peers, not having that level of confidence. And I think there’s also something about it not being something that you’ve seen your other family members do? 

H: Yeah. Yeah, that’s true, yeah. 

T: So if you’ve not grown up with parents that can swim. My dad can’t swim. At all. And he will often try on holiday to give it a go. And he’s so willing, he’s so willing to get in the water, he’s just not very good at it, like he’ll tread water but he’s not- he can’t swim. And that’s because he was never taught how to and he was never shown by his parents either who also can’t swim. So there’s no role modelling there because they’ve also not been given the access, these parents, grandparents also haven’t been given the access as well. So maybe there’s something to be said when the children are going to school and like well “What is this? This is such an alien concept to me.” There might even be some fear there. And we all know how hard it is these days to give one to one support to each child when you’re in an educational setting. And if that child needs more support because they’ve never seen this happening, they’re not familiar with the setting, not familiar with the situation, that could also manifest itself there as well I think. 

H: Yeah, definintely. And I think as well because as far as I know, and this is my limited experience in being at school, I didn’t learn to swim at school? I had swimming lessons with my parents. 

T: Well there you go.  

H: Which, yeah, exactly, but it was at our local leisure centre and we had to pay to go there. So already there are those- like both of my parents can swim, they had to pay to go to a thing which we were lucky enough to be able to afford, they had a child who wanted to learn, and I’d also been aware of it in media. And I’m not saying that, you know, three year old Henry was avidly watching the Olympics, because I can guarantee he was not! 

T: Just really into swimming! 

H: But actually I’m thinking of why I wanted to learn swimming, and it was watching The Little Mermaid, the Disney film. 

T: Cute! That’s adorable. 

H: Which was a little white girl, and actually I could, I remember the number of times I went swimming as a kid and I’d be like “Let’s play The Little Mermaid!” I was having the time of my life, my mum, who had to play Sebastian, was not, but there’s that element of a visual there. 

T: So true, because you’re right, if you’re not seeing it at all, you’re also not going to want to engage with it. And then if the only, the first time you’re engaging with swimming is in a group of your peers, when you’ve all started going through puberty at age 11, that is absolutely terrifying!  

H: No wonder people don’t want to do that! 

T: It’s no wonder that children are turning around like “Actually do you know what? This isn’t for me.” But the children who, like you, have been swimming before, and they’ve had the opportunity to get familiar with it and get comfortable with it, they’re probably more inclined to just, you know, jump in, engage with the lesson, I’ve done this before, this isn’t new to me, whereas you’ll have the other children where this is like “Uh, I was not expecting this, this is completely new to me.” 

H: Well it’s like- imagine throwing a seven year old into a class of people who learned how to read at four? I don’t know when kids learn to read, but like it’s, it’s the same kind of thing if you’ve not broached that very initial actually, mechanically here’s how you do this, I’m not going to want to step into a huge pool where I might drown because I’ve not got someone teaching me how to stay afloat- no! 

T: Yeah, that is, that is fascinating, and those stats are just mindblowing to me. And some more stats here then, so the same research found that 93% of Asian adults and 78% of Asian children did not swim either. So these are, these are big numbers.  

H: Yeah, and interesting as well that it kind of identifies body modesty, the cost of swimwear as being among those reasons why those stats are so high. So, yeah, which all tracks, like in terms of leisure centres costing money to attend, unless you do it in a school environment or like with a- an outreach programme I guess, then yeah. 

T: The modesty point is really interesting because absolutely, there’s very little consideration there when we’re talking about cultural differences, ideas of modesty, what you would expect to wear when you’re going swimming, has anybody talked to people about the fact that their flesh is out in front of a load of other people? It sounds really silly to say out loud, doesn’t it, but- 

H: Yeah, but only if you’ve not thought of it. 

T: Exactly. Only if you’ve not come from a place of cultural awareness and how that might affect a child’s level of interest, level of engagement, and also parents’ engagement. 

H: Absolutely, yeah. Because at the end of the day, they’re the ones saying “Yes, I would like my child to participate in these lessons.” They also have the authority to say “I don’t want my child to participate.” And that could be through, like you say, entirely good reasons. So yeah. Interesting. 

T: I think there’s a lot of thinking to be done here, and clearly, I don’t think we’re doing a very good job in the UK of providing a good foundation for people to learn to swim who are from Black and Brown communities, evidently. I think the stats show that for sure. So back to Ladi, then, and his article, he also says that people often come with a bit of a counter-argument. In that people might say that, "You know, we’re not actively excluding anybody from joining into these activities, everyone’s got equal access to doing this, we’re not stopping anybody from joining us doing it, so clearly we’re not the problem!” That kind of mentality.  

H: Right, yeah. 

T: What do you think to that? 

H: See this, I find intriguing because I think I’ve been on the other side of that very often, especially with regard to swimming. This is casting my mind back so many years now but, actually that kind of idea that a lot of the spaces that I was- actually I’m going to widen this out to sport generally: a lot of the places where I was participating in sport, I genuinely can’t think of a time when it wasn’t an almost exclusively white experience. 

T: Okay 

H: And that might be my selective memory, but also I think that it’s telling that I can’t remember it being mixed. At all. So I think, yeah, this is a very interesting one to kind of think about with the knowledge that I have now where I’m kind of aware that that’s not an argument at all. Whereas that’s often what was presented to me as like “Well actually why is everyone here looking like me?” ”Oh, you know, we’re open to everybody they just don’t want to come.” So. 

T: Yeah, it’s not really- 

H: Yeah, it’s interesting for something that I’ve never- I never had to question as a child. To now question and go “Oh wow, that’s so unacceptable as an argument.” Because I mean I think it goes back to - with these areas where there’s been that historic, systematic kind of pushing of certain people out of these areas, you need to explicitly invite people. And you need to create that space where, you know, people with different style swimming costumes can come in and not feel like they’re going to be laughed at. Or a place where, you know, we’ve allowed for two hours afterwards to sort hair out. Like if you’re not explicitly making room for those, it is exclusionary. 

T: Yeah. Yeah, I think you’ve perfectly summed that up. Because there has to be an active approach to making people feel that sense of belonging. Because it doesn’t happen by accident. 

H: And it’s not assumed.  

T: Absolutely not. And if you cannot see anybody that looks like you, how could you possibly think that that was for you unless you are explicitly told “Come and join us. This is for you, as well as us. We’d love to have you as part of our team, we’d love to have you as part of our group.” Oh, right, great! I’d love to come along, to be honest, I just thought this group was for x amount of people. You see it all the time with, even if you take ethnicity out of this, this situation we’re talking about now, think about baby groups. How many times do you hear “Mum and baby groups”? 

H: Oh yeah. 

T: Right? So “Mum and baby group,” “Baby and mum swim.” 

H: Or changing facilities in women’s toilets. 

T: Yeah, changing facilities that are in, like you say, only in women’s toilets. As a man, how is that space inviting you in? But I guarantee that if you went in, you’d get “Oh no, it’s for everybody! We don’t leave anybody out! Of course you’re a dad and you’re a parent, and you want to engage with baby and swim, come on in!" Okay, but you’re not putting that message out there though. That’s not what you’re portraying, that’s not the message that you’re delivering to people. It needs to be explicit. 

H: Yeah, and again going back to that representation thing, it’s not the narrative that you’ve created, so yes, sure, everyone is welcome, that might be the sentiment that you’re wanting to foster, but it’s not the narrative that you’ve created to justify that sentiment coming across. And I think because you often hit that – I think we mentioned it actually, way back in episode one!  

T: Did we? 

H: Throwback! Of “actually this was my intention” well actually I don’t care what your intention was, it still hurt. Like “I didn’t mean to punch you in the face, but that doesn’t negate the fact that I broke your nose.” You know, like – I don’t know where that metaphor came from!  

T: So violent! 

H: But I think it’s like that kind of essence to it? If actually, historically I’ve been led to the assumption that if my face gets in the way of a hand, it’s going to hurt, so I’m not going to put my face anywhere near a hand. I think – weird metaphor, granted, but I think there is an implication here of well actually, historically I’ve been met with resistance so I’m not going to bother trying because I can assume how it’s going to be met. And actually I think, again, offering an opposite angle to it, I must have been in my late teens when I realised that this bone density thing was an absolute myth. 

T: Nonsense. 

H: So I’d gone through so much of my life going “Yeah, those differences are biological, and of course there’s no reason why my entire sports group is white because, you know, it’s just the way it is.” And that’s really harmful because, I mean I’m in a very lucky position because I’ve been able to question that later. 

T: Yeah, and unpick a bit of it. 

H: Yeah, but lots of people aren’t. And again, unless- without that kind of first notion that it’s a possibility, and a real possibility, not just a “Oh you’re good at this because you’re amazing, and not like everybody else”. Without that, it’s not an inclusive space. 

T: Yep, I agree. I think it’s not enough just to say “Oh well we don’t actively exclude people and therefore we include people” That’s - that’s no. That’s such a non-thing like let’s be honest! “Oh I don’t exclude, therefore I am inclusive” Incorrect. 

H: Also the bar is on the floor with that, right? 

T: That’s not that’s not good. Like, you know. 

H: “I’m not actively bullying you, so we must be friends.” 

T: Right, yeah! It just doesn’t feel right, doesn’t sit right. And I think you can’t be what you don’t see. And if you’re not seeing it, if you’re not seeing that level of representation, you are probably not going to engage with it. You will always have those people that are leading the charge and being changemakers, if you’re one of those people, then great because you are spearheading some massive changes within places that aren’t usually diverse. However, they need to be welcoming communities to start with, they need to be welcoming environments to begin with for people to be spearheading these kind of changes. 

H: Yeah, so that “Can’t be what you can’t see” element is very much the first step of things because you can be what you can’t see, but it takes so much effort. Mental, physical energy, so you’re a lot less likely to want to bother, in fairness. Like, so yeah, I think that "can’t be what you can’t see” is really accurate, but I think, yeah, very much the first step and shouldn’t stop there. Because being able to see someone- sure. 

T: More than one would be good though. 

H: More than one, lovely! And also is that person happy to be there? Or are they being, like, bullied into it for the representation. 

T: Token. Yeah. Tokenistic, yeah, which we also don’t want.  

MUSIC 

H: So onto our second article, then, which is called “West Yorkshire Police: More work needed on diversity, says policing boss.” So this one is a very interesting one, I think, especially because it’s only from October 2023, so it’s really recent. And the title is saying that more work’s needed. I think yes. 

T: More work’s needed? I think that is the understatement of the century. 

H: Yes.  So in this article, Alison Lowe, who is Leeds’ first Black female councillor in 1990, and she’s currently the Deputy Mayor. She says that 8.6[%] of the force were from a Black, Asian, or Minority Ethnic background, which is up from 7.4% last year- Your face is saying everything, Teagan. 

T: Yeah, I’ve got some thoughts, Henry, I’ve got thoughts. 

H: Okay, so, she has said “Since we came to office, about 1,000 officers have been recruited, and about 17% of those are from Black, Asian, Minority Ethnic backgrounds,” 

T: Okay. 

H: However, Ms Lowe said that recent census data showed that about 23% of "our communities" were from Black, Asian or Minority Ethnic backgrounds. So the Force’s chief constable, John Robins, says that he "knows that the best police force is one that looks like the people it represents," which is similarly to what we were saying earlier about the kind of “you can’t be what you can’t see” element, but with a very different take on it, so. Thoughts. 

T: So many. Okay, where do we start? I think 8.4% of the workforce being from minority ethnic backgrounds is appalling. Especially when you look at the demographics of West Yorkshire: we’ve been told here that 23% of our community is – and I say “our community” guys because we both do live in West Yorkshire, I must point out – of our community is from minority ethnic backgrounds. Now that is saying that under half of the West Yorkshire Police Force is completely underrepresented. That is quite scary. 

H: Yeah. 

T: And we’re talking about a service to these communities, and we’re talking about people’s tax-paying money, frankly, going to a service where people are not accurately represented. And I think this is a massive issue for West Yorkshire Police, if I’m honest. 

H: Yeah. Yeah, because as well we’re talking about representation in an institution, in this context. 

T: Yes! Institution, that’s the word I was looking for! 

H: So Ladi was kind of talking about an opt in, opt out activity. If you don’t want to go swimming? Cool. 

T: Fine.  

H: Live your life. On land, safely, we love that for you. This isn’t. Everybody has to engage, and ‘has to’ is really key in this because everybody has to engage with the police at some level.  

T: Yes. Whether it’s talking about like getting your thoughts back from the constituents about your council tax and where that’s going, whether it’s engaging with the police on community initiatives, whether it’s obviously calling them because you’ve experienced a crime and you’ve been a victim of a crime, you’re absolutely right. I think you’d be hard pushed to find anybody who hasn’t had an interaction with the police in some way, shape, or form. 

H: Yeah, I think even in terms of things like assurance level? 

T: Mhmm, yeah! 

H: So very recently actually I was saying to somebody that I wasn’t comfortable walking home alone, and their reassurance was “Oh, the police are often there.” And I was thinking that actually that’s not the same assurance to me, a fairly visibly queer young man. Like actually those are very different experiences and I think that is emulated so much in a very historically, systemically racist institution. 

T: Yeah, I mean let’s call it what it is. We can’t deny the statistics that come out year after year after year. We can’t deny the news stories that we hear consistently about how policing is in crisis mode at the moment and how people don’t feel safe. They don’t feel represented by their police forces, and this is not something that is just a West Yorkshire problem: this is all up and down the country. 

H: Wider than the country as well. 

T: Oh you’re so right, you’re so right. And I think that a good place to start in trying to rebuild trust is to develop at least a police force that is representative of the communities that they’re serving. I think that is the bare minimum, to be honest. 

H: Yeah. And I think as well, a police force that wants to do better. It’s again kind of having that representation there, sure, great- are those people in the police force there for good reason? Are they respected? Are they treated differently? Like it’s so much more systemic. 

T: It’s interesting that you say that because I would like to know, of these 8.4[% of] people from ethnic minority backgrounds within the police force, do they feel safe within their own jobs? Do they feel like they belong to that police force? Or do they also experience a lack of inclusion within their own organisation, so to speak? We obviously don’t have any stats and facts on that right now, but I think it’s definitely worth pondering the question.  

H: Yeah. And actually if there was for instance, a Black police officer, I don’t think the general public would view them with the same respect that they'd view a white police officer. So I think actually like they're not able to do their job to the capacity that they’re able to because there’s not that level of institutionalised acceptance. 

T: Yeah. I agree. I think it’s nice that the police force looks like the people it represents, yeah, lovely. I think, to be honest, that’s the bare minimum for me. I’ve had several experiences with the police force personally when I’ve been a victim of crime, and I can honestly say that not any single one of those occasions went well. And I didn’t feel like I was being served by an institution that’s supposed to be there to support me and protect me, honestly. And I’m now in a place where I need to see what the plan is, I need to see what their improvement plan is in order for me to start volunteering some trust with them again, if I’m honest. 

H: Yeah and I find it interesting as well, from someone who’s aware more historically than the current situation, if I’m honest, but interesting that you say a police force that’s “designed to protect me” because it’s not. 

T: No it isn’t! 

H: And I think that’s where a huge amount of the issue arises, is that if we’re speaking bluntly, the police as a thing was created to protect rich, white men in pre-Victorian era? And actually like you’re saying, nothing’s been done to acknowledge that really, or to kind of go “Well here’s where we were going wrong, here’s where we want to do better,” it’s felt like something that’s been quite pushed on the police force. 

T: Yeah, I think you’re right, they’ve not been taken, I mean I hate this phrase, they’ve not been taken on the journey, have they? Like are we sure that the people who are working in the police force have bought into this? 

H: That’s where I - my doubt lies. 

T: I’m not sure they have. And it’s difficult to say whether that’s - well, I mean to be honest, it’s difficult to say whether they ever will. Because if they’ve not been engaged at an early level to try and think about how they’re going to fix a lot of these problems, then, then yeah, maybe not. Maybe they haven’t been brought on the journey and maybe they’re not as engaged in trying to change it. And that’s such a difficult place to be in with it all.  

H:  And you often hear, especially on this precise topic, actually, that kind of “one bad apple doesn’t spoil the bunch” and I think that that’s really true because I don’t think, hand on heart, that every single person who joins the police is going in to join a systemically racist institution. I don’t think that’s the purpose! 

T: I agree. I agree with you. 

H: I would like to believe that people join for really well-meaning kind of desires to help the community. I would hope. I do always find that phrase interesting though because the idea of “one bad apple doesn’t spoil the bunch”- sure, okay. Would you eat an apple pie that was made with one bad apple amid the others? Probably not, actually, I’m not going to engage with that at all. 

T: You know, it’s the analogy of well, here’s some sweets in a bag, one of them’s filled with poison. 

H: But it’s only one. 

T: But it’s only one! So, you know, knock yourself out, get them all gobbled. You wouldn’t, would you? You’d be like “No, I don’t want your bag of poisoned sweets, thank you!” But you’re right, and I think it’s harmful for the public to think that every person in the police force is bad, but I also think that the police really need to sort out their image and a good way of doing that is: A, solving this problem that they’ve got with their diversity, because it is not good, and B, being really transparent and honest with how they are going to fix these problems because I am yet to see it. 

H: Yeah, and it’s interesting as well that all of the information that I think I’ve ever learned about the history of the police force hasn’t come from the police force. 

T: Interesting. 

H: And I think that’s telling in and of itself. In that I don’t - like you say – I don’t think, or I’ve never been made to feel like this shift towards inclusion is willing. It’s always felt like something that, “Oh we need to do this really quickly after the Black Lives Matter movement because otherwise we’re in danger.” And it’s always felt like something they’ve been forced into, if I’m honest. Which, again, I don’t think will apply across the board, but that’s the impression that I think a lot of people get. And so I’m not going to trust it, because if it’s being presented as a, not even a knee-jerk reaction, as a someone hitting your knee and going “Move”. 

T: It’s just like, it’s like a PR stunt, isn’t it? 

H: Yeah, it feels very tokenistic, and very inauthentic. 

T: Yeah, very empty 

H: I think representation is only a fraction of the problem in this situation. 

T: In that- yeah, absolutely. 

H: I think if the police force seeks to establish representation without anything else, you’re going to hit the same problem if not worse-  

T: And you’ll probably hit it internally as well, so it’s not just an external factor, it’s actually what’s going on inside your organisation too. 

MUSIC 

T:  So, wanting to put a spotlight today on director Peter Hoar and he did ‘The Last of Us’ which is a fantastic watch, if anybody hasn’t watched it yet, please do. Also ‘It’s A Sin’ and ‘The Umbrella Academy’ and if you haven’t sensed a theme, there is queer representation in all three of those programs that I’ve just listed. Now Peter Hoar has worked with Russell T Davis in the past as well, worked with him on ‘Queer As Folk’ which is also very popular. And he talks about casting and he talks about representation generally in his programs and why that’s so important, and he said “Talking about visibility is everything. I think why 'Queer As Folk’ are so important to me is because I saw who I was represented me on screen in a bold way.” So he’s also coming at it from a personal angle, so as a gay man he’s looked at that and been like “It is important for me to see people like me represented on the telly,” and that’s his whole gambit now. And he’s quite honest in one of the interviews that I was looking at from him talking about Russell T Davis and said something along the lines of, “it’s not like Russell doesn’t care, he cares enormously. But maybe I think he didn’t look hard enough, and I’m trying to rectify that mistake.” And this was when he was talking about one of the programs that they’d both worked on together, and they’d kind of, they’d both had a conversation about the casting not being quite right for queer characters. And saying that, well, Peter was of the opinion that queer people should be in queer roles, and Russell didn’t disagree at all, but it wasn’t a priority for him. 

H: Okay, interesting. 

T: So they kind of had that conversation around, “Fine, representation, we’re going to get that but also do we want to have the representation from the actual cast from those communities as well?” So it kind of sounds like they’ve worked really well together here, and maybe opened each others’ eyes up a little bit to their ways of thinking, which I think is really great. 

H: Yeah, I always find that conversation about whether, particularly I’ve seen it in queer spaces, whether queer actors should play queer roles. Or more specifically I suppose, whether cis straight actors shouldn’t play those roles. 

T: Yes, sure. 

H: So I find it interesting that that’s also a conversation that’s been happening by big huge directors as well. 

T: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. He’s one that if I do see his name on something I will watch it. Because I really do rate his work. Same with Russell T Davis as well, he has produced some absolutely quality television. So yes, he’s my spotlight, so thanks Peter Hoar! 

MUSIC 

T: So, our first question is: Do you ever think we’ll reach an end point for representation? What do you think? 

H: I think no. 

T: I agree. 

H: Done, sorted! 

T: End! 

H: So I think no because the world isn’t static. I think that you can seek to be representative, but if you try to end that journey, someone will always be saying “I don’t see myself in that.” Which I think is very fair. I would say though that I think, while I think that “No” is a very blanket answer, I do think that the methods of it change in media, in TV and culture, in personalities, in institutions- 

T: In workplaces. 

H: In workplaces. So I think that the way that you’ll see representation will change, and it'll get better, it’ll probably get worse as well. 

T: At some point! 

H: But I think that’s good? I think the way that representation changes is a really good thing. I’d actually be quite concerned if it stopped. 

T: Oh I agree. I think if we’re focussing on this idea of an end point, we’re kind of missing the whole idea of what it is to be inclusive. 

H: Yeah.  

T: And what it is to be diverse. I’m trying to word this as best as I can: in order for us to be diverse, we have to accept that we’re all different. And if we all reach a point to say, “Okay, the differences can stop now,” we’ve all stopped being diverse. So we’re not really doing what we set out to do! And more importantly, things change all the time. Language changes, the way people identify themselves changes.  And I think when culture like that changes within your communities and societies, that’s when we know that we’ve still got work to do because if we said that we’ve reached the end point then what about everybody that comes after the end point? 

H: Yeah, yeah exactly, and when people are comfortable, then they’ll be themselves. Which sounds so blasé to say, but actually when you’ve, in inverted commas, “reached” representation, surely that would imply a level of comfort. So when you’ve got that level of comfort, people will go “Oh actually now I’m quite comfortable kind of being more myself” so then you’ll have to represent that in some way. So- 

T: Yeah, it’s just, it’s constantly evolving. I just, I think it’s pie in the sky to think there’s an end point to this, to be honest. 

H: Yeah, I'd be quite disappointed if we saw an end point to representation because then it kind of means that you’d stop trying. 

T: Surely that would say that we’d stopped evolving? 

H: Yeah, that too! 

T: Yeah, like you know people aren’t changing and evolving, and we’re not talking about new ideas and new things and new experiences in people’s lives. I just can’t see it myself. 

H: No. And I suppose either that, which is all supremely positive, I would argue, or the more terrifying alternative is that the end point means regression. And going back to where we started because actually there is no representation because we don’t want it there or because we’ve forced it out. So I think actually to want an end point kicks off some sirens for me anyway. Because it’s, yeah, it’s kind of like well we want the end result but without any of the thought that’s gone behind it. Whereas what you were saying with Peter Hoar, the valuable nature of representation comes in the talking about it and in the seeking and wanting to do better. So actually to kind of say “Oh will we ever reach an end point?” kind of carries the same sentiment as “Ugh, can’t we just be done with this now?” 

T: Yeah, it does, it absolutely does. You’re right. 

H: So yeah, I think it’s more the sentiment that accompanies that one that I’m having issues with, as opposed to necessarily the utopia that’s suggested by “We don’t need representation anymore” because I don’t think that’ll happen. And I don’t think I’d want it to. 

T: No, I think you’re absolutely right. So question two is: any advice for those who are worried about getting representation wrong? 

H: Yes, I have so much advice! And actually I think it comes down to: get it wrong. 

T: Sure. 

H: Because otherwise you’ll never know. 

T: You won’t! 

H: I think that getting it wrong is invaluable, because if you get it right all the time, you won’t be open to being challenged, you won’t be familiar with being challenged, you won’t know what to do when you are challenged! Which will happen. So actually I think if you’re worried about getting representation wrong, good? 

T: It means you care, for a start. 

H: Yeah, so I think be worried about getting it wrong, but don’t let that stop you trying. 

T: Yeah. I agree. It’s like the sentiment of get comfortable with being uncomfortable. Especially when you’re talking about diversity and inclusion based topics, it’s that you’re allowed to make mistakes, you really are, it’s how we learn. And the most important thing after you’ve made those mistakes is that you take it further and you try not to make them again because you’ve learnt something. And now you know how to be even more inclusive than you were yesterday. And that’s the really important part for me. And in terms of getting representation wrong, I think a great way to avoid that is to make sure you’re including the voices in the room of the representation? 

H: Yeah! 

T: So instead of having your idea of what representation looks like, why don’t you go and speak to a group of diverse people from diverse communities, and you’re going to get a far better insight into what good representation actually looks like when you’re trying to communicate that outwardly. 

H: Yeah, I mean you’re still going to leave people out because we’re human but the less likely you are to do it on a systemic scale. Which I think is probably the best that we can try to do is better than what came before.  

MUSIC 

T:  So, good discussion today I think, so I’d like to thank you all, all the listeners for joining us for this episode of D&I Digest. Remember to follow us on our website, social media, and we hope you’ll come back and listen again next month. So, once again, it’s bye from me. 

H: And it’s bye from me! 

T: I’m off for a swim, bye!