Is the generational divide real?

In this episode of D&I Digest, we're having a very enthusiastic conversation about the generational divide! Tune into two millennials talking about how much of this is myth, how much is fact, and how it impacts us in the workplace as well as in daily lives.

You can read the two articles we discuss here:
‘Is there a ‘generational war’ playing out in workplaces?’
'This is the real cause of generational conflict at work, according to science.'

Bobby Duffy, author of 'The Generation Myth' and many other books is our Spotlight for this month.

If you have a question for us, you can submit it through this form and might even hear us answer in a future episode!

Music used is:
Who Do You Think I Think You Are? by Mini Vandals

Transcript

H: Hello and welcome back to another episode of D&I Digest! I’m Henry, I use he/they pronouns.

T: And I’m Teagan, and I use she/her pronouns. We make up the Diversity and Inclusion team at Anchor, which is an organisation which specialises in housing and care for over 55s. 

 H: So, this month we’re treading pretty familiar ground, given Anchor’s expertise, and we’re going to be having a look at the generational divide, and how much of it is myth or reality. Because clearly we are the experts in this! Nice and bold claim to start us off with! So basically to give a bit of background to this, the conversation around the generational divide was kicked off by the sociologist Karl Mannheim in a 1928 essay on the ‘theory of generations,’ and essentially the premise is that pivotal historical events – so things like the Great Depression, 9/11, Covid pandemic – things like that heavily shape the traits, the values, and attitudes of people living in that period, meaning that different generations end up vastly different in terms of kind of personality type as well. So, I think this is actually a really interesting topic for us to talk about because I think a lot of D&I things are quite specific, whereas this is something that everybody’s got experience of in some way.

T: Absolutely.

H: So let’s start this off broadly, what generation do you fall into? Where are we?

T: Um, well depending on who you ask and where you’re getting your information from, I’m either a millennial or a gen Z. We’ve had a look at the generations and we’ve decided that for today’s purposes I am a millennial just given the dates we’ve had a look at. 

H: Me too. We’re the cusp of both of them, so, yeah, what are your initial thoughts? Do you buy into the kind of generational divide? It feels like we’re talking about zodiac signs, but.

T: It does a little bit. Do I buy into it?

H: Do you think it has sway?

T: Uh, yes and no?

H: Okay.

T: The reason I say “Yes and no” is because there is obviously going to be ways that you are shaped by huge moments in your upbringing. Like I think for both of us it would have been 9/11 and like that was one of the most shocking things that’s ever happened that I was fully conscious of it happening as well.

H: Yeah, that I remember the events of it.

T: Absolutely, yeah, like – and I think when you remember memories from when you’re that young as well, they’re kind of shaped by what your parents tell you, or things that you see online, pictures, whatever, because –

H: It’s like assimilated memories, isn’t it, that it’s called?

T: That’s it, well yeah, that’s it. I can remember feeling the impact of 9/11, but if I’m truly honest with myself, I don’t ever remember like seeing what happened on TV and stuff, because I would have been in nursery at the time when that happened.

H: Yeah, yeah not memorable in terms of age.

T: I think I was five, six, maybe, when that happened? So cognisant enough to recognise that something bad was happening, but I don’t think I had like crystal clear memories of 9/11, for example. 

H: No, I don’t think I was mature enough to kind of work out the repercussions of it, or understand it, even. I think I just, yeah like you said, knew something bad was happening.

T: Exactly. But, how we then changed things around like going on holiday for example, that will have had an impact in how I was then socialised throughout my youth. So I do think there’s merit in saying that generations will experience things differently because of big world events that happened, like you’ve already said. Great depression, pandemic, et cetera, but I think in terms of taking a very broad group of people, tying them up into a little bow and saying, “You are all like this,” is silly.

H: Yeah, like you say, some people can treat it a bit of a zodiac sign, and be like “Oh you’re such a millennial,” and it’s like yeah, these are the traits of that, right, sure? That’s when I start to lose people a little bit, when I’m like “Are you defining me by this?”

T: Exactly.

H: Yeah.

MUSIC

H: So our two articles today are actually from these two camps: one kind of calling the myth, one sticking with the reality of the generation gap. So the first article is called ‘Is there a ‘generational war’ playing out in workplaces?’ – Nice and clickbaity, again! And it’s from March this year, and it talks about a report finding that there are stark contrasts between the generations’ approaches to work, namely with regard to communication styles and technology.

T: Sure

H: Which you would kind of expect

T: Yeah.

H: It quotes loads of statistics from the Digital Etiquette: Mind the generational gap report, and talks about disagreements in the workplace between generations over things like differing technology use, tone and context in digital communication, work speed, and levels of formality. So Eliza Filby, who’s a historian at Generational Evolution, said “The generational gap in today's workplace is wider than ever before. We are dealing with up to four generations working in the same environment, each with vastly different values, expectations and communication styles.”

T: I agree with her! I think Eliza is absolutely correct: people do have vastly different communication styles and expectations, especially when it comes to the use of technology, how familiar you are with it, how much you like it, do you use it outside of work- all of these things will definitely play into some of the generational stereotypes that I’m sure we’ll go on to talk about and that do feel very present at the moment in workplaces. I don’t think that’s an absolute done deal for every person that belongs to that generation though.

H: That, yeah, definitely.

T: Like, in contrast, my grandma loves WhatsApp. That’s how she communicates with me. She’ll happily send voice notes, loves an emoji, you know, it’s – she’s not the type of person that would steer clear of that because it’s not something that she’s grown up with. Someone’s spent the time to teach her how to use it, and she likes using it.

H: Off she goes!

T: Off she goes! You know, she’s quite happy to explore that new piece of tech that definitely wasn’t around when she was young. So I don’t think it’s fair and right to say that if you belong to one generation then you must communicate in this way, and you must work in this way in the workplace. It just doesn’t seem very fair, does it?

H: Yeah, and like you say, there is definite truth to these things, but I think to take them as gospel, I think – yeah, just feels a bit not fair.

T: Yeah. I think I would probably say that the biggest differences are not even based on tech when it comes to generational gaps. I would say it’s more of that verbal communication, and I would say it’s more about a communication style of, ‘this is a workplace, this is very formal’ versus what you would probably get from some of the younger generations, maybe millennial, gen Z in the workplace. I think they might approach things slightly differently, maybe more informally, and I think that’s where I probably see the biggest difference in generations, it’s not necessarily tech-based it is actual verbal communication styles.

H: Interesting.

T: And managerial styles as well I feel are very different. So yeah, that’s probably where I see the truth in this idea of generational gaps. I think it’s kind of lazy actually to pin it all on tech and be like “Oh well if you’re a baby boomer, you’ve no idea how to use X, Y, Z.” That doesn’t sit right with me at all.

H: No, I think as well, you’d kind of expect that in terms of like, nobody’s taught them how to use this as it’s becoming a thing. We grew up with it. ICT lessons were a thing with us, we were taught how to use this machinery. You would expect the people who didn’t have those lessons to not be as fluent in it. I don’t necessarily think that the difference comes in tech ability, I think potentially there’s something in the mindset of it?

T: Yeah, for sure.

H: But again, I think it would be really lazy to attribute that to a whole group of people who have been brought up in different situations, [inarticulate noise] all of that. But yeah, I am just thinking though about the way that my dad sends texts and it is like “Henry.” Full stop. And I’m like “Oh no!”

T: Very important.

H: I’m in trouble! And it’s like “Just wanted to say I hope you’re having a nice day” and I’m like that did not require a name and a full stop after it! So yeah, I think it’s tricky to identify truth and be led by that.

T: I agree. And just going back to like drawing from personal experience as well, so I’ve just said grandma loves a bit of WhatsApp, and she uses it as anybody would who’s just quite fluent in tech, but my dad, for example, signs all of his texts off with “Love, Dad.” It’s like, “I know it’s you, Dad, it’s connected to your number, you don’t need to tell me it’s you.”

H: It’s interesting because actually I think my grandparents are a bit more willing to learn than particularly my parents are? So I wonder if there is a bit of a – I mean, it sounds like a generational divide, but I, yeah I wonder if it’s-

T: It’s strange, isn’t it?

H: A trend, perhaps?

T: Because that’s not what we’re being told though about generations, is it?

H: No, exactly.

T: It completely flies in the face of “Oh well this generation does tech this way, and this generation are more fluent in using it.” Well actually, on the contrary sometimes.

H: Samantha Mullins, who’s the director of Latitude HR, said “Organisations need to acknowledge that lived experience across the generations is very different and create an environment where peers can learn from each other and collectively lean on the different strengths and perspectives.” Which I think is pretty much what we were saying is that kind of acknowledgement of life experience as opposed to the year in which someone was born.

T: Correct.

H: In addition to this, a person called Matt Stephens, who is the CEO of Inpulse, said he “wasn’t actually surprised” by the divisions that this survey found. He actually labels the different generations, saying that Gen Z and Boomers are “talking two different languages” and that “Millennial managers can act as a ‘bridge’ and as ‘interpreters’ if there are miscommunications.” So I found this- I found it really interesting that his reason for this is basically “Millennials typically are also more willing to go further to understand something, whereas Gen Z, currently, while saying they are the most open generation, seem to be less willing to explore, be curious and give the benefit of the doubt.”

T: Oh that’s bold.

H: Yeah! I do find it interesting that the one person – and admittedly like this might be the article picking and choosing the words, but – the one person who’s labelling the generations is the one really leaning into this. These stereotypes.

T: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

H: Yeah, and especially stereotypes with values as morals as well, so yeah, he seems to be giving that nod to cancel culture, kind of saying that “younger employees should understand both that it’s OK to disagree without falling out or leaving, and that relationships require effort and understanding rather than an immediate cancelling,” especially when boomers are navigating “a moral maze because values and norms at work have changed.” So I find it really interesting that he’s bringing this shift in almost away from the tech side of things and more into morals and values. 

T: Yeah. I think there’s something to be said there around how gen Z have been constantly hit with a barrage of media their entire existence, and their level of tolerance when it comes to conversations of morality, ethics, particularly in the workplace. It’s silly, isn’t it, because I don’t want to stereotype, but I think generally the stereotype is that gen Z have less tolerance around these types of behaviours, and wanting to engage in a discussion where they’re trying to be empathetic almost. It’s a bit like, “Mm, okay, no that’s wrong, you know it’s wrong, this is the end of the conversation.”

H: Yeah.

T: I would argue: is that necessarily such a bad thing? And I understand that this can obviously cause friction in a workplace between those two generations, and I guess that they’ve kind of got to figure out a way to communicate with each other better. What I don’t agree with is the millennials acting as a bridge.

H: I just enjoy the idea that it sounds like we’re all aliens, and kind of like “Ah, we can act as interpreters for these strange creatures.”

T: I think it’s difficult, isn’t it? There’s obviously a degree of bias from my own personal experience here of being a millennial, but it does sometimes feel like that, as a generation, we have been given and dealt some very poor cards.

H: Feels like middle child syndrome.

T: Big time. And I think when we’re then sort of expected to become workplace therapists as well, to act as a bridge between boomers and gen z, it’s almost like “You know what? Can you just sort it out yourselves, please? Because we’re just trying to keep our heads down, and pay the bills!”

H: Yeah. Which, ironically, I think is another stereotype of millennials.

T: Yeah yeah yeah, absolutely! And just want to be in a workplace that feels more harmonious. Whereas I don’t think gen Z are scared of conflict. I think they’re quite happy to enter into it head on, and they’re like “Do you know what? I’m going to tell you what I think, because I don’t think it’s right, it doesn’t sit well with me, these are my ethics, these are my morals, I’m going to make it known.” And I think maybe when we start to just accept that a little bit more, and realise that the landscape of work is particularly going through a massive shift, then actually we probably will create more of that harmony, and probably have less of the generational gap that people keep talking about. I don’t know! I just think it’s really dangerous when we’re really buying into this idea of us and them culture.

H: Yeah, that’s exactly it, isn’t it? It feels very divisive, and I think as well because it’s something that you’re, well essentially born into, there’s really not much acknowledgement of the fact that you might not fit into this. And it’s kind of a “Well no, you’re born into that yeargroup, therefore you are a millennial, or a gen Z, or whatever.” And I guess there’s something as well to be said for the fact that politics as a workplace topic has, historically almost – I’m not sure to call it taboo would be a thing, but it’s not usually a thing to be spoken about at work.

T: I think taboo is absolutely the right word to describe it.

H: Whereas like the whole kind of, “Oh you wouldn’t ask somebody about their politics,” whereas now we’re, I think as a society generally, a bit more happy to have that conversations.

T: It’s changed. 

H: The fact that it’s been brought into the workplace isn’t necessarily gen Z, or gen Z that are bringing that in, it’s just society now and they’re the ones that are coming into workplaces. 

T: Yeah, I mean there’s social etiquette around talking about two things in particular: politics and money, you know? And that’s certainly what I was told growing up, what about you? Like that was always the social etiquette is that you don’t talk about those things, and there’ve been calls from gen Z for more transparency, especially around pay, you know? And I think that’s also supported though, by governments’ moves to do things like reporting on the gender pay gap, reporting on the ethnicity pay gap.

H: Yeah, it doesn’t feel like something that’s been led by gen Z.

T: No, so I guess – so what’s the problem? You know?

H: Yeah!

T: Like, I think what it says to me is that gen Z are probably more open, and want to have those discussions in the workplace, and are blurring the lines very much between what work and social life actually is. And I think that’s probably because people work more than they have pre-covid because that line between them.

H: Yeah, work is blurring into our social lives.

T: Exactly, you know, a lot of people are working from home now, and stuff so there’s less of a distinction, if you like, for some people. So I think actually people’s attitudes have shifted enormously and it doesn’t just feel like it’s gen Z that have been solely responsible for that. I think it’s been little things that have happened over a long period of time. 

H: Yeah, 100%. So the article finishes with a comment from Angela Carter, who’s the director of legal services at WorkNest. She warns against making generalisations and basically says that there are loads of exceptions to various assumptions like older generations don’t embrace new technologies, younger generations prefer to communicate in x way, there’s just so much that doesn’t fall neatly into those categories. She finishes off by saying that “the multiplicity of business communication today brings its challenges within the workforce and with customers. Organisations should set clear standards... and these expectations should be communicated to the workforce.”  So overall this article seems to back the idea that a generational divide is a real problem in the workplace, and it’s Angela Carter kind of saying “Mm, be careful with that!” right at the very end.

T: Who’s telling us that this is a big problem? 

H: Yeah.

T: Do you feel like it’s a big problem?

H: See, I found it really interesting reading this article because I was like all of the people talking, all of the quotations are given by CEOs, high ups in these organisations. The kind of people who are, very generally, at that level are going to be gen X, baby boomers, that generation. Which would make sense that the target is gen Z. So yeah, I’m sceptical of this because it seems like there’s something to gain by enforcing a real gap. Because it does imply as well that someone’s doing work right? And that’s these people, the kind of people who are saying this, and there’s someone who is doing work wrong, which is the new generations coming through, and I don’t buy that at all. 

T: No, I don’t either. And I mean, do you know what? When it comes down to it, they are the current workforce, they will be the new workforce moving forward. I don’t get it. I don’t understand a lot of this discussion because it’s like, well regardless of what you think about the generational divide, ultimately that will start changing and shifting because they are the workforce.

H: Yeah, exactly.

T: And they will continue to be the workforce. So you either adapt the way that your business communicates and make it so that every generation can communicate with each other effectively. Or you buy into this idea of a generational gap, further widening said gap, and then you’ve got a problem with attraction and retention on your hands very quickly.

H: Yeah. 

T: It doesn’t make any sense, does it?

MUSIC

H: So, with that being said, the other end of this spectrum is article two which reads so differently.

T: Oh god. I’m going to regret this!

H: Yeah, it’s really fun! A great exercise in tone.

T: Okay.

H: So article two is from November 2023, so actually a little bit older, and it’s called – this’ll say everything – “This is the real cause of generational conflict at work, according to science.” Yeah, really hits the point here! So yeah. Tone is very different to the first article – this is more of an opinion piece as opposed to the first which was from an HR website. So Jessica Stillman writes this, and she starts with pointing out that complaints against ‘kids these days’ shows up from Socrates’ writing more than 2000 years ago, and you know, people were complaining about Mozart’s music being too edgy, I feel like we’ve done this before! And that attitude is still going strong today, with people complaining about particularly Gen Z, particularly at work. She nods to lots of surveys that show that Gen Z are dissatisfied with their 9-5s while Gen X managers are complaining that they’re “lazy, touchy, and arrogant”.

T: Okay.

H: We’re not mincing words here.

T: Nope!

H: So she also says that this generation gap has spawned loads of guides and advice on how to deal with the conflicts, but because so little is actually backed by science, most things can usually be resolved by empathy and common sense. Which is exactly what we’ve said.

T: Yep, pretty much!

H: Yeah, so I think she very much sets out her stall from the first paragraph, and I-  

T: Well, she’s right.

H: I have to say I’m with her, yeah! So she goes on to say that essentially what we’re seeing is less of a generational divide and more of an age group thing, so 20-year-olds have different priorities and life experiences to 50-year-olds, but when the 50-year-olds were 20, that was exactly the same, that was still the case. The research also backs this by saying that between generations there are actually very few differences in preferences and values, and that there is considerable variety within any of these groups.

T: Of course.

H: So, yes there’s truth to the generational stereotypes, but nothing to actually support a catastrophic divide.

T: That’s what I said!

H: Right? We were right there.

T: Quote me right here!

H: Mic drop – I’m not dropping this mic...

T: Doesn’t exist, not real.

H: Yes. She says that there are social and economic trends that impact particular groups of people over time, so for example, higher education and housing are objectively less affordable now, so that’s going to impact the people who are going through those situations more than a whole generation. Like if you’ve got, you know, someone who is gen Z going through university and a baby boomer going through university, they’re probably going to have similar experiences about university.

T: Of course.

H: So yeah, it’s a bit of a pedantic distinction to make, but I think it’s a really important one.

T: I agree with you, I think it is important to make that distinction. And love that example of like saying if you’re 55 and you’re at university, you’re 21 and going to university, you’re probably going to have a similar think and feel about the university experience in this country at this current time. Same with house buying, same with job markets, you know, same with political landscape, like there’s more that makes us the same than there is that makes us different. And I know that sounds really cheesy and really tacky, but I think sometimes we can be so focused on trying to package up this idea of difference to create divides, to create that us and them culture, to create this idea of group individualism, which sounds ridiculous but –

H: But no definitely a thing.

T: But you know what I mean? Like it’s this “I belong to this group of people and I only think this way, and anybody who’s not in that group of people is wrong.” Like that is what causes workplace conflict, not belonging to different generations.

H: Yeah. And I do think it’s interesting that she kind of mentions the fact that loads of HR guides and advice have been spawned from this because – it sounds incredibly cynical, but – of course they’re going to be? Because that makes money. If someone’s going to rock up to your workplace and go “We can teach you how to talk to gen Z!” You’re going to get hired.

T: That is such a good point, I did not even think of that. So like basically monetising the idea of a generational gap.

H: Yeah.

T: Interesting.

H: Has it not happened with like rainbow washing? So many people have kind of come out of the woodwork and said like “We’ll teach you how to talk to your LGBTQ people in a way that doesn’t make them sound like aliens.” It happened with race after George Floyd.

T: Yep.

H: So much comes from this.

T: Yeah it does, absolutely. That’s just reminded me of something that’s happened to me and you within a professional setting where we’ll get invited to go to like sessions and webinars and stuff because of the field of work that we do. And do you remember that time when we were sent an invitation and it was around “How to talk to your transgenders.” 

H: Yes! That was the phrasing!

T: That’s literally what the invitation said: How to talk to your transgenders.

H: Yup.

T: And you just sit there and you’re like, wow. Like these are human beings and people. You know what you can do? You can treat them with respect? And you can approach them like you would any other person.

H: You can not use an adjective as a noun.

T: It’s just- 

H: Wild.

T: Again, it just comes down to this communication and how people are not communicating effectively with each other, and there seems to be such a focus on trying to guess what people are saying rather than just hearing the words that are coming out of somebody’s mouth?

H: Yeah, a hundred percent, and like I think especially with this kind of – I mean I am a sucker for a label. Like I do- personally I find they really help me in some regards, especially with like LGBT identities – personally, love it. But that need to put everybody else into a label as well, that’s, like you say, where it gets a bit dangerous because then you’re essentially selecting your community? Not necessarily based on what they think, but based on your perceptions of “well you’re all gen Z, you’re all communicating like that, so I think that about all of you.”

T: Yes. 

H: There’s a real difference in that.

T: Yeah, there is. And then we start to create biases.

H: Yeah, exactly.

T: And then that starts to leech into how we do things at work, how we recruit, how we retain staff, how we build our wellbeing services, et cetera et cetera, because we’re just acting on stereotypes and assumptions and they’re not founded.

H: Yes. And I think like all of these things, like especially with age because it’s so fluid, everybody – well, so far anyway, that I know of – everybody grows up. Maybe not emotionally! Myself being a case in point, but you’re always going to have this conversation, as Socrates has pointed out, as Mozart’s critics have pointed out, it’s always a thing and it’s always monetisable – is that a word?

T: Yeah. Yes, absolutely. There’s articles from newspapers back in 1901-

H: Yes!

T: Have you seen this?

H: Yeah! About like “workers these days!”

T: Yeah yeah yeah! And it’s just complaining about the youth of today and how they don’t want to work and they’re all lazy and all the rest of this stuff. Like this is actually boring now, you know? We’ve been having this exact same conversation documented from 1901.

H: And actually, you know what, I would be surprised if a twenty year old’s first priority in life was to their workplace? Like that sounds silly?

T: It’s not going to be, is it?

H: I’d like you to look at any sixteen year old and ask them “Are you really keen to get a nine-to-five?” The answer’s probably going to be no.

T: Exactly.

H: No matter when you ask them.

T: But like you say, and like this article says, your priorities change depending on where you are in your life, and the things that you’ve got going on, and there’s so many factors to this. And I think, like I said at the beginning, it just feels a little bit lazy to say that your reason for being, your raison d’être, is that you belong to a certain generation and that’s why you are the way that you are. Nah, I’m not buying it.

H: So, essentially Stillman concludes her article by saying that in the workplace, I think more specifically than generally in life, in the workplace especially, we should be sensitive and welcoming to different people’s needs, not their age, which I couldn’t agree with more. She says that generational differences don’t have much sway or impact, but stereotypes about them can because it prevents appropriate training, appropriate conduct, generally. Her essential final plea, and it is phrased quite desperately in the article, is to see people with individual needs, rather than by stereotyping a whole generation.

T: I mean, is that not just common sense?

H: You’d have thought.

T: It seems wild to actually have to say that out loud, it’s like, you know what you could do? You could meet people where they’re at, and stop assuming what they need, stop assuming the type of experience that they have based on something as small as the year they were born.

H: Yeah.

T: Come on now.

H: Well yeah because you do get it in like lots of situations, and I’ve seen it particularly with neurodiversity, in that there is a lot of assumption that if someone is young, they’ll require a workplace adjustment for neurodiversity, because you very rarely see older generations kind of saying like “I’ve got ADHD.” Wonder why?

T: Well there’s a reason for that!

H: Yeah, it’s not because of their age, it’s because of society around them.

T: Exactly.

H: And yeah, well Stillman’s kind of saying is that you should talk through the needs of individuals, as opposed to, as you say, making those instant assumptions because of when someone was born.

T: Yeah. But it’s such an interesting point about like the differences of people with neurodiverse conditions, especially when it comes to their age. Because we talked about this in our podcast episode around neurodiversity and it being on the rise and all that lot, but it’s not. It’s just that there’s better recognition in place, and there’s – 

H: Yeah, society’s moved up to it.

T: Exactly, and there’s better – I say “better with an asterisk and a pinch of salt, to be honest – better ways that people can find support if they do have a neurodivergent condition. That hasn’t changed just because someone’s twenty, you know?

H: Yes, exactly!

T: There’s going to be people who are sixty in the workplace that still require that level of support, it’s just that they’ve never had a platform to be able to ask for it.

H: Yes! A hundred percent. I must confess, and I feel like this has probably come through very clearly: I’m on Stillman’s side with this, I’m in the article two camp of – 

T: Yeah me too.

H: It’s a myth, please talk to people like  they’re humans, don’t zodiac them into particular groups.

T: Yes. Absolutely agree. 

H: Well. That was easy, solved that!

MUSIC

T: So, our spotlight today is someone called Bobby Duffy, and he writes various books like ‘The Generation Myth,’ which go into a lot of detail, so if you did want to do any further reading around this - and I do think it’s a genuinely interesting topic, even if your feelings are that it doesn’t exist at all! But I do think it’s interesting to learn to – we’ve said in previous podcasts – to be informed, you know? It’s always nice to be informed. Yes, do go and have a look at some of his books – Bobby Duffy, thank you!

MUSIC 

H: So a couple of questions that have come in today. Our first one is how can workplaces avoid leaning into harmful age-related stereotypes? And I think this is particularly relevant given our demographic of people that we work with, so yeah, any thoughts?

T: Yeah, absolutely. For our workplace we have so much age diversity. The majority of our colleagues are aged between 40 to 55, but in terms of an actual spread of our age groups, it’s pretty vast, as you would expect, and we do a lot on the apprenticeships side as well. So we have even sixteen-year-olds that are working in our care settings. So yeah, massive in terms of the scope of age there. For us, it’s very much about what Stillman was saying: it’s about taking into consideration those individual needs, also twinned with a bit of, kind of social awareness of things as well? Like we are a company that is trying to evolve in our tech, and when we’re doing that we need to be conscious that we need to be offering everybody the option to improve their tech literacy. So it’s not about aiming it at one particular group because you’ve made the assumption that they’ve no idea how to use tech, it’s about making sure that that is available to everybody so that, from any generation, if they don’t feel like they are super fluent with tech, they can go on that training.

H: I will make a note of that, thank you!

T: But I think that’s it, it’s about that equitable approach. I know I keep saying it again and again, across various episodes that we’ve done now, but it’s really important! Like when you finally start to understand what it is that one person needs in your organisation, and you can go out of your way to make those adjustments, and I’m not just talking about reasonable adjustments, I’m talking about the way that you communicate with people, I’m talking about the times that we send emails, the days that we work – all of these things weigh into how that person is able to be their best self at work, I guess. And I think when it comes to age, it’s also about being mindful of where that person is in their life. And there’s some really interesting statistics on people who are aged in that 40 – 55 bracket, and there’s research to suggest that that is the toughest time in your life.

H: Oh!

T: You are likely, and this is typical, you are likely to have children who are either very young or in high school, and you are also likely to have aging parents. Your caring responsibilities will probably be at the highest they’ve ever been, your ability to be earning is probably at the highest it’s ever going to be, and the way that you balance your life socially and personally is going to be very different. So they do say that in that age bracket it’s probably the toughest time in your life to try and get a sense of how everything that is going on will impact you. 

H: That does make sense.

T: So I think that’s important to bear in mind as well when you’re looking at how to avoid age-related stereotypes.

H: Yeah. Almost to kind of ignore the stereotypes and, again, treat people with empathy!

T: Totally.

H: Be nice! Okay, cool, so our second question is: ageism is often thought to be aimed at older people, but studies show this isn’t the whole truth. How can workplace protect younger workers against ageism?

T: This is interesting, so I do think that when we think ‘ageism’ we think of an older person not being accepted into the workplace because or really harmful stereotypes about their ability and capabilities in the workplace. But, much like this question is saying, there’s actually a lot of evidence to show it’s the other way around, and I think we’ve covered a lot of that.

H: Yeah, and these articles say that as well, don’t they?

T: Yeah! Exactly.

H: They’re all “Gen Z, gen Z, gen Z...”

T: Exactly this, we’ve covered a lot of this: younger generations seem to come into the workplace and have to be up against this rhetoric of “You don’t work hard enough, you are lazy, you are this, you are that.”

H: “This is the way it’s always been done so...”

T: And it’s a tale as old as time, it will probably continue to happen. And I think that’s one of the things we need to be mindful of when it comes to addressing ageism of all kinds in the workplace. It’s making sure that actually when your younger workers are coming up into the workplace, that they feel like they’ve got that sense of belonging. Because it can be quite a daunting task, especially when you’re quite young, coming into somewhere like a big organisation and it being the first time you’re doing things like working from home, and speaking to people who are twice as old as you. You might not be so familiar with those kinds of situations. So I do think there needs to be some mindfulness about younger people coming up into the workplace, and making sure that it’s not a scary environment for them.

H: Yeah. I think I like the – usually I don’t, but I like in this context – the phrase “mindfulness” with it, because I think that’s exactly right, and there are so many situations where, again, because we’ve got four generations in the workplace in a lot of places, you often end up where age doesn’t necessarily correlate to hierarchy as well. So where you’ve got, for example, a younger person who is quite high up, often again that comes up with a lot of assumptions of capability. I mean, it’s something that I’ve experienced kind of personally in that those are really dangerous things to assume, and likewise with older people as well, assuming that they’re capable in hierarchical kind of means, whereas that might not actually be their job and their responsibility. Giving them extra might not be what they want. So yeah, that kind of assumption – just, I think people need to be a bit more aware of it, and second-guess it a lot of the time.

T: Yeah. I agree.

MUSIC

H: So thank you for joining us for this episode of D&I Digest, this has been a fun one, I feel like we’ve really gone off!

T: Yeah, we’ve covered a lot of ground, I think we’ve given a lot of opinions today.

H: Yeah, this is a dangerous one!

T: Yeah, I know, I’m fully expecting people to be in the comments or maybe give us some questions off the back of this one, I think.

H: Oh please give us some questions, I think it’ll be great fun. So yeah, give us questions, follow us on our website and on social media, and we really hope that you’ll come back, and we hope we haven’t scared you off! Yeah, come back to listen in next month! So it’s bye from me 

T: And bye from me 

Both: Byeeee