Black History Month Special

It's Black History Month! Join Teagan and Henry as they discuss UK news, pay gaps, and racism in the UK.

You can read the two articles we discuss here:
Racism is ‘commonplace’ in UK journalism with more senior Black staff needed across industry, report warns.
Labour pledges full equal pay rights for ethnic minorities

Our D&I Spotlight this month is Nadine White.

Some extra resources for this month are:
Why I'm No Longer Talking To White People About Race, by Reni Eddo-Lodge
Natives, by Akala
How to be an Antiracist, by Ibram X. Kendi
Joyful Rebellion - a docuseries about Black men smiling :)

If you have a question for us, then you can submit it through this form.

Music used is:
Who Do You Think I Think You Are? by Mini Vandals

Transcript

T: Welcome back to another episode of D&I Digest!  

H: I’m Henry, I use he/they pronouns. 

T: And I’m Teagan, I use she/her pronouns. We make up the Diversity and Inclusion team at Anchor, which is an organisation that specialises in housing and care for over 55s. 

H: So, Happy Black History Month! Like we’ve done in past episodes, we’re going to bounce off this theme and talk a bit about racism in the UK. The theme for Black History Month 2024 is ‘Reclaiming Narratives’, which makes it a kind of great time to get really meta and talk about who’s writing the news articles we’re actually talking about. 

T: I really like this theme, actually. 

H: I love it. 

T: This year, it’s a really really good theme, and in the past none of them have particularly grabbed me, as such, and coming from the point of view of being a Black woman, and I’ve just sort of looked at them and been like, “Yeah, okay, fine,” and they’ve all been a bit light touch, but I actually think this year’s theme can be really powerful. And me and you have spoken in the past about the power of storytelling so I think when we are allowed to take the stories that have been built up around Black people and actually turn around and say, “Yeah, that’s not quite right, this is actually what happened” or “This is actually how it is,” I think is going to be a really great piece of exploration actually across the month. 

H: Yeah definitely. And I like the phrasing that you said like the others have been quite light touch? Because they’ve all been very like celebratory, which is, you know, super cool, but this one feels a bit more practical and like okay now we’re going to do something, we’re going to really get into this! 

T: For sure. 

H: As well, like, what’s the importance of Black History Month for you? 

T: In all honesty I really struggled with this in my younger years. The idea of having a Black History Month, like um, I’m Black 365 days a year? 

H: Yeah! 

T: Not just in October, so I think for me it was getting comfortable with the idea of actually having Black History Month was about allowing people who weren’t from a background like me to think a little bit differently about people that don’t look like them. So I think Black History Month is definitely educational for those who come from communities that aren’t Black, and for me it’s a chance to showcase things about my community that I’m really proud of. So it is important in that sense, I still don’t think it’s the pinnacle of anti-racism though.  

H: Yes, work to do! 

T: Yeah, for sure. 

H: Yeah. Through my schooling, we didn’t get much Black history. 

T: Oh no, nothing at all. 

H: So like, yeah, actually I was going to say, I don’t think anything actually. 

T: No, nothing. 

H: So for me, I think especially as an adult, it’s really nice to essentially be told, “Yeah, be critical of the stuff that you were taught” because it’s helpful to kind of have that prompt to be critical, to just kind of go “Mm. Maybe ask the people who you’re writing about and double check that those are truths, and not just because you won.” 

T: Yeah, exactly, we really really love in this country to spin a particular narrative around the Transatlantic slave trade, which is, “Oh well you know, in Britain we wanted to abolish it, we didn’t like it!” No, you didn’t like it up to a point. You liked it when it was- 

H: Serving you. 

T: Yeah, when it was pouring thousands, millions of pounds into this country and made it exactly what it is today, that’s why Britain is so rich. And that’s the bit we tend to grab on to, is that whole we didn’t like it that much and actually we wanted rid of it, and it’s like “Well, you know, it’s a cute story but it’s not true.” 

H: Yeah, definitely. I love it as a month personally because I never got that. 

T: Yeah. 

H: Yeah, as a White person, like this was never taught to me, so I really like that actually now I’ve kind of got a thing to teach me more. But yeah, definitely needs to be kind of consistent beyond Black History Month as well. 

T: It does. And I quite like that how you’re saying that from your perspective as a White person that it’s an opportunity for you to learn something that’s absolutely never been in your periphery during your educational school years. So in that sense I think it’s fantastic, and I think that it’s something that’s now being introduced more into schools actually because the UK have decided that they want to mark it more intensely than they have done previously. And I think a lot of that comes out of changing attitude, a shift in generational attitudes, things like Black Lives Matter protests, and yeah, I think just this shift towards paying more attention to it in October feels quite visceral to me, and I don’t know if that’s because of the work that I do – probably – but it does feel very different to 10 years ago. 

(MUSIC)  

H: Our first article is from March 2023 and it’s called ‘Racism is ‘commonplace’ in UK journalism with more senior Black staff needed across industry, report warns.’ This report was written by Dr Aida Al-Kaisy with the Ethical Journalism Network, and it’s based on 27 in-depth interviews with Black journalists and stakeholders who work, currently or previously, in national mainstream media, so people who are really kind of in that industry. And it shows a real lack of progress on diversity in UK media- 

T: Shock. 

H: I know. Where Black journalists make up 0.2% of staff. 

T: Wow! What? 

H: 0.2! That’s pathetic! 

T: That’s disgraceful. That is really bad. 

H: Yeah, compared with like the population at 3%. Like 0.2! 

T: Oh no, that is shocking.  

H: And this is more concerning: recently the proportion of Black journalists has increased, up to 0.2! 

T: Wow. I’m also surprised that 3% is people that identify as Black. 

H: Yeah. 

T: I’m quite surprised by that. I would have thought it would have been bigger. 

H: Yeah. Maybe it’s taking like mixed heritage as a separate thing as well? 

T: Well this is, yeah. Which is, again is- 

H: Which is interesting. 

T: It is, because this is where it gets really complicated for someone like me. So, people who don’t know me and know what I look like, I am a Black woman, but my heritage is Irish and Jamaican. My mum is White, my dad is Black. And I go through this identity crisis every time I’m presented with a diversity box to tick and have no idea, but never in my life has someone looked at me and thought, “I’ll treat this person like a White person because that’s 50% of their heritage.” No no no. That’s never happened in my life. So when it comes to things like this and it’s saying “Oh, Black journalists, 3%” it’s like, have we taken mixed heritage out of that? Because like that’s fine in theory. 

H: Yeah, but actually in practice it’s not incorporating the whole experience. 

T: Not at all. So yeah, interesting. 

H: So while recently the proportion of Black journalists has supposedly increased and there was a heightened sense of the possibility for change since 2020 which we’ve already mentioned, Black journalists are saying that processes are still exclusionary and discrimination is rife. The report also found that common approaches to diversity and inclusion aren’t working in UK news media because they don’t really address the structural issues in the industry or in society. I’m assuming that where it says “common approaches” it means things like, you know, schemes, positive recruitment, that kind of thing. Do you have any thoughts on like the usefulness of them? 

T: I think it’s lazy. To turn around and say that “We don’t think the things that we’re doing are working so... shoulder shrug.” Like, so what next, then? So what are you going to try? So if common practices, as you’re telling me, are not working, what uncommon practices are you putting in place to make sure that it is working? Are you telling me that the problem that you’ve got is so volatile within media that no one who identifies as Black is going within 3 miles of the place? Because I think at that stage what you might want to do is set it alight, burn it to the ground, and start again. 

H: Yeah. Exactly. Like when the quick fixes don’t work, you can’t be surprised when you need to put some harder work in? 

T: Really? 

H: Wild, right? 

T: That’s just really lazy as far as I’m concerned. 

H: I saw a really nice phrase the other day, and I think it was meant as a joke, but I've really latched onto this, and it was basically saying “You can’t personal choice your way out of systemic issues.” And it was about something kind of unrelated, but I really like it as an approach to this, sort of like if your personal choice is, “Well, you know, Black people just need to apply themselves more, or actually come to our interviews!” Then that doesn’t negate systemic issues within your industry. 

T: It’s ridiculous, isn’t it? It’s like they're sat there and it’s like, “Oh well you know, we’ve put an advert out to say that we want more Black people working with us, and they just don’t want to come.” Oh, alright then. 

H: Grow up, come on. 

T: Sit back, then, and do nothing. Try harder. 

H: And also when you’ve progressed to 0.2% of staff- 

T: Oh that is so bad. 

H: I feel like you’re really not in a position where you should be relying on common approaches? Like you should be doing more. 

T: No. Quite right. 

H: Common approaches are for things like maintaining a representation, not for “We need to do some drastic work.” 

T: Yeah, this is desperate. 

H: Yeah. So there was another interesting angle in the article, talking about reporting on racism, which is something I think that we’ve covered a few times almost from an opposite angle from like the reader’s angle. So this one is saying that a ‘culture of fear’ prevents Black people from speaking up about issues of racism for fear of losing their jobs, giving a sense that the work of individual Black journalists is co-opted so that these organisations can appear to be championing diversity. 

T: Okay, interesting. 

H: Which, yeah, it’s a real mind mess to get around but actually makes a lot of sense. 

T: It does. 

H: And it is actually something that I’ve kind of started paying attention to. It is interesting like the number of people who, for instance, report on something, talk to, interview people, for instance Black people, but the cited author of the article is a White person. It is just a bit of like that cognitive dissonance where you’re kind of like, “Yeah, you’re stealing people’s work again.” 

T: Yeah. Big time. 

H: Yeah, Marcus Ryder, who’s the head of external consultancies at the Sir Lenny Henry Centre for media diversity at Birmingham City University said “While this in-depth report should concern everyone working in the news industry, the findings have repercussions on how democracy in our society works, which stories are heard, and most importantly who holds power to account.” 

T: Well we’ve seen this recently, haven’t we? We try our best to be upbeat and not bleak on these podcasts don’t we, but. 

H: We try! 

T: We try. But for me, if you are an ethnic minority in this country and you want to gain insight into what racism looks like in the UK, the first thing you need to do is look at media. And how people of colour are talked about in the media. It is so depressing. And we see this manifesting itself on our streets with so-called ‘far-right protests’. Riots. 

H: Riots. 

T: They are riots. When people are being set alight in hotels, there’s no protest about that, that’s attempted murder. And the media might as well be the metaphorical newspaper that is fanning the flames to this type of behaviour because you can literally see people of colour posted next to a picture and that it’s tactically put next to something that isn’t even about them, but it’s a negative headline. That is so powerful. That is how people gain an understanding of what’s going on around them. And when it isn’t true to life, people’s perceptions and ideas of communities around them can be so easily influenced in the worst ways. 

H: Yeah. Because it’s all that subliminal stuff as well which is so much worse. 

T: Absolutely.  

H: Like I remember a couple of years ago there was a big push on, essentially whenever you see a photo of a Black man in media, they’re not smiling. 

T: Oh wow. 

H: And like you can notice that point where that was identified and it was essentially all your photos of Black men in media look like mugshots, and there’s a point if you kind of go back through mainstream media, I imagine, there’s a point where you kind of notice the pictures start smiling more. 

T: Oh okay. 

H: And it is really interesting because I think what you’re saying is absolutely right like there’s still a lot to be done like in terms of placement, but even like those really subtle things where you’d kind of look at and go “Maybe it’s just the way that my screen is set up” or like, it’s just the formatting of the page, but someone’s picked that, someone’s designed it that way. 

T: Yeah, absolutely. 

H: Whether consciously or not, those decisions have been made by someone, and we are told very clearly in these numbers that it’s probably a White person. So again, whether consciously or not, and even giving the benefit of the doubt, and saying that it’s not a conscious decision, that thought’s come from somewhere. 

T: It has, absolutely. 

H: And it needs to be rectified in some way, even if it’s just acknowledgement. 

T: And no one spotted it. You know, we’re talking about media that goes through several people before it gets to the end consumer. 

H: Exactly, I never understand. 

T: And not one person’s looked at that and though, “Hmm, that feels a bit off.” 

H: Exactly. 

T: So then you know the problem’s systemic, you know, and to do with culture. 

H: Yeah, because none of those people are Black people looking over the thing and being critical about it, yeah. 

T: Have you heard of the term of ‘being OJ’d’? 

H: I’ve heard of it, but I’m unfamiliar, so do enlighten me. 

T: Okay, so this is relating to US media but there’s so many similarities in the way that we present media in the UK. OJ Simpson, when he was on trial for allegedly murdering his wife, there was a picture that came out of him – it was the mugshot – but it went on the front of Time Magazine, and they'd made him darker. So they’d completely oversaturated the picture, deeply rooted in colourism, you know, the darker the person the worse they are, apparently, is the theming around colourism, and that again stems back to sentiment from the transatlantic slave trade. And yeah, it was one of the most powerful things that I’ve ever seen done in media to demonise this person that was on trial, you know, regardless of what the outcome was, whatever, he was still on trial, but the media were intent on presenting this image that he was this big, Black, scary man, and needed to be put behind bars. And the best way to do that was to take a mugshot and to make him three shade s darker, so there’s a phrase amongst the community of Black people where you come back with a picture now and you’re like “Oh my god, I’ve been OJ’d.” And it’s happened to me so many times, and I thought I’d mention it here because when we talk about that subliminal messaging it’s so insidious in its nature that unless you’re a person from that community looking at that and going, “Oh I see what you’re doing here.” If you’re a White person looking at that, you’re not going to think anything of it, just “Oh it’s OJ’s mugshot.” But there’s so much going on behind it, you know? 

H: That’s it, yeah, it’s like whether or not it’s intentional, the effects are there. 

T: Dangerous. 

H: Because I’ve heard the opposite, where Black women are made, in like fashion magazines, kind of a few shades lighter, yeah. Because of beauty standards in the UK, I guess, or America as well. It’s wild to me, especially like when you’ve got such a culture of all of the skin retouching that happens anyway, because you assume that it’s happening, at what point do you kind of go, “Hm yeah well that’s not true.” And especially as well not knowing these people in person, I don’t know what’s correct. If I see a person, I kind of assume that that photo is representative of them. 

T: Yeah, yeah exactly, it’s true to life. 

H: But. 

T: Guess not. 

H: There’s a whole different problem in that, but yeah. It’s interesting just even in terms of like, formatting, not even to get into the realms of like the language that’s used. 

T: Ugh, right? Minefield. 

H: Yeah.  

T: There’s so many things that you can pick up on in terms of how Black people in particular are portrayed in media – you know, like we’ve said: images, smiling, colourism, the language that’s used, the clickbait headlines, the strategic placement of them next to headlines that aren’t even relating to them. You know, it’s all so programmed to be negative, and yet we’re so comfortable in this country saying that we don’t have a problem with racism. To the point where we can have actual governmental reports telling us that we don’t have a problem with racism. Bizarre. Really strange. 

H: Yeah. So the report, after hearing all of this, gave several recommendations – good – including for senior leadership to change the make-up of newsrooms to reflect the improvements in entry-level diversity, as well as in wider society. The EJN also suggested incentivising media managers at an organisational level to recruit and promote Black journalists to management positions, as well as greater levels of transparency in decision-making across the news-making process. 

T: Have we really got to a point where people are having to be bribed to promote people? 

H: Right? 

T: Is it that desperate, is it that bleak? Because that’s frightening to me. 

H: Yeah. And like, you can promote a bunch of Black people but actually if it’s not a place that they are comfortable in, they’re just going to leave! Like you’ve done nothing! 

T: This is so problematic. 

H: It is, yeah. And especially given how prevalent news is, and how influential news is, and the fact that fact-checking is decreasing. 

T: Which is just ridiculous, right? These people are in charge of getting news across to people. Do you remember when journalism was like, highly respected, and people were like, you know, “I’m a journalist and I’m here to make sure that the stories and the news that you’re hearing are the things that you should be hearing!” And now it’s just like The Sun pumping out anything, literally anything! I take umbridge with this. 

H: I think that’s very reasonable! 

T: Yeah, I’m moved in the worst way to hear that we’ve basically said to a bunch of White people at the top, “Right, what I want you to do is I want you to go out and recruit a load of Black people and we’re going to give you some money for it. Okay?” Do you know what it’s giving me? It’s sounding a bit paid slave labour. Ick. Disgusting. Don’t like it. Hate it. I actually hate it. 

H: I think that’s very fair. But like, again for any other group of people, this would be really obviously not the solution. 

T: Mm, I know. 

H: So why is it okay here? Well, it’s not, that’s the answer, isn’t it? 

T: It’s just opening these people up to so much ill treatment as well in the long run. It’s like oh you know, "You lot have only got your management positions because we got a nice fat bonus to make sure you got here.” What kind of foundation is that setting for these people to come and take a step up into roles where, yeah, fair enough, they’ll have more decision-making to do. Fine. Which you would hope would then filter out into more fair and transparent news stories. 

H: Help set the culture and all of that, but. 

T: But! If you haven’t got the infrastructure in place to support these people, and you haven’t done anything to change your culture around inclusion, what’s the point? 

H: Yeah. All you’re doing is putting people into a higher risk situation. 

T: All you’re doing is paying more White people at the top. More money. 

H: Yeah, exactly. 

T: And then we get into realms of ethnicity pay gaps: hilarious. This is a mess, this is a dumpster fire. 

H: I do wonder what the situation is like now because obviously this was last year? Which you know isn't very long in the grand scheme of things to rehaul the UK news industry – Essentially my question, I wonder how far they got before they realised that this is nonsense.  

T: This is a terrible idea.  

H: Yeah, and it's not actually gonna work. I wonder how many people they kind of put this by and they were like, "I don't think that's gonna work, guys”. 

T: It feels grim.  

H: It feels very much like the very first steps of like, “What if we do this?” At which point the whole room turns around and goes, “Mm, maybe, maybe no.” 

T: Oh, yeah. No, this is not good.  

H: So, obviously those recommendations don't go far enough, don't work. I'm just gonna call a spade a spade. But in an ideal world, let's get some positives out of this. When the UK news media changes – I'm gonna say when, living in hope here – when it changes to be representative, what do you think will change in wider society when that is achieved?  

T: Well, I would hope that people have a better understanding of what's actually the truth of Black communities, how they are in this country, what they're subject to, how they experience life as a Black person in the UK. I would hope that that becomes far more transparent. I would like to see less derogatory news coverage of Black people. I hope that would be the case.  

H: Fingers crossed. 

T: And probably just more of an awareness of wider communities and how they're portrayed within the media as well. I think it's always important to look at this from an intersectional point of view. When we talk about the Black community, there's people within that community that are Black and trans, there are people in that community that are Black women, there are people in that community that are Black and disabled. So I think it's important that it's then reflective, wider than just Black people and having a look at how different communities can benefit from true diversity, which is always the end goal, right, isn’t it? You have a diverse workforce, you therefore are able to be better at problem solving, you better deliver the product or the service or whatever it might be, we know that works. So yeah, that's the hope. Do I think we'll get there any time soon? Unless there is a massive cultural overhaul, no. Because the best they can come up with at the moment is paying more money to White people to recruit a load of Black people that they didn't think were worthy of the job to start with.  

H: Yeah.  

T: To then line manage them.  

H: Yeah. 

T: Ha! No. 

H: To then push them out of the jobs that they've hired them for. Nah.  

T: Nah, man. Terrible.  

H: I think as well like I'd hope with more representation, even just in one kind of aspect of life, I would hope that that has a bit of an increase in like critical thinking as well because it will make for a more diverse selection of news stories. So you're gonna get more of that polarisation, for instance, with The Sun as opposed to like articles that were written by Black people, for example. And people are gonna have to look at both of those simultaneously and go, I'm gonna have to make a choice here. Which one I want to read, which one I'm going to believe. And hopefully because there'll be that real division in what's being reported, hopefully that will kind of encourage people to go, "Right, okay, I'm going to double check this somewhere else, I'm going to use my brain in order to assess this situation a bit more,” and kind of train that back into society a bit.  

T: I agree. I think what we're saying is basically what we'd like to see is a bit more integrity in the entire- 

H: Yeah. Transparency.  

T: Yeah, you know, in the entire media. Which I fear has been missing for some time. So it's systemic issues like this that really bring that to the forefront: there’s a clear and blatant lack of integrity. 

H: Yeah, it's always really interesting selecting various articles for these podcasts. It's always, I mean, I mentioned earlier, like it's always so interesting looking at the names behind them. And I think we try and do a fairly good job of getting news from various sources, various authors, but even so that requires a lot of looking and it is interesting the number of times we search a topic and have to go on to page like 37 in order to find- 

T: What we’re looking for, yeah. 

H: Yeah, something worth talking about actually as opposed to just the- 

T: Clickbait headlines. 

H: The clickbait headlines, the regurgitated narratives that everyone's aware of. 

T: By the time that you've got through, like you say, regurgitated headlines, it's like, ah, finally, something where someone's saying something interesting.  

H: This person's actually based it off science.  

T: Good. Some fact. Some data. Excellent! 

 (MUSIC 24.52) 

H: Our second article today is called “Labour pledges full equal pay rights for ethnic minorities.”  

T: Yay!  

H: It's from February this year, so it is before the election, worth mentioning. 

T: Sure.  

H: But the article outlines Labour pledging to extend full equal pay rights to ethnic minority workers as well as disabled people if it wins power. So we'll see if that comes to pass.  

T: I don't understand the headline. I think this is, again, this is like clickbait headline, isn’t it, from the BBC actually. Labour pledges full equal pay. No, no, no, no. Everybody gets equal pay, it's a right. What they're saying in this article is that Labour want organisations to commit to publishing their ethnic minority pay gaps, which is different. Equal pay and pay gaps, not the same thing, but just wanted to make that absolutely clear.  

H: Thank you, yeah. The article itself was quite short. So I feel like there's a lot that's unsaid. But yeah, currently women have stronger protections on pay. 

T: This is definitely pay gap related rather than equal pay. Equal pay is not the right phrasing.  

H: No. So basically these proposed changes would address dual discrimination, which helps from an intersectional perspective.  

T: Sure.  

H: Interestingly, the previous Minister for Equalities, Kemi Badenoch, said that the proposed legislation would, in quote, “Set people against each other and see millions wasted on pointless red tape. It is obviously already illegal to pay someone less because of their race.” Just the phrase “set people against” each other as well, like- 

T: What do you mean? What do you mean?  

H: That's already happening. 

T: I just, this is daft, like this whole article, like I already said, absolute clickbait, equal pay. So let's say that me and you were both going to be working in a shop and we were entry-level shop assistants.  

H: Cool.  

T: You are White, I am Black. If I get paid less than you, that is illegal.  

H: Yes.  

T: Okay. And if for some bizarre reason the person that's employing us, chooses to cite that the reason that they're paying me less - 

H: Wild of them. 

T: Exactly – is because I'm Black. (Siren noises) 

H: Really illegal! 

T: So illegal. So illegal. Right, so you can't do that. It's written in the statute. 

H: Do not. 

T: There's legislation around equal pay. You have to be paying people, especially at the entry level – it gets slightly more complicated when we're talking about a higher level because they've got maybe more experience and you've got a pay scale to go at. But if you are advertising the job at minimum wage, for example, and you choose to pay someone less than minimum wage because of a protected characteristic.  

H: Or likewise if you're wanting to pay someone more than the minimum wage works both ways.  

T: Yes, it's not equal pay. Nonsense. 

H: Yeah, different thing. 

T: It's very illegal. The pay gap, that's slightly different which is what this is actually alluding to rather than equal pay, is around the gaps that we see from every area of the company. So we'll take the gender pay gap for example, because that's the one that has to be published by employers and that's the one that people are more familiar with. So if you have all of the men in your organisation, all in the high paid jobs, and then you've got all the women that work in your company, they are all in the entry level roles, your pay gap will be massive between those two genders. And that is what they want to bring in for people who are disabled and people who are from ethnic minorities. So it'll be the same thing. 

H: Like the previous article, where they're saying like actually all of the entry-level jobs are filled by 0.2% of Black people, but all of the people on top making those decisions are all White, that's the thing, isn't it?  

T: Correct. So their pay gap will be absolutely massive. So calling it a pay gap is difficult wording to be honest.  

H: Bit of a misnomer, isn’t it? 

T: It is, because it doesn't really get to the point of what you're trying to look at. What you are trying to look at is whether the glass ceiling is eight foot thick in your organisation and if it is, why? So yes, I am pleased that Labour's pledged to have a look at this pay gap report and then they're wanting people to publish this data and blah blah blah. What I'm more desperate to see though, if I'm completely honest, is how the government intend to support companies to make the changes after they understand these things.  

H: Yeah, because it’s all very well saying “We require you to do this” but actually if people don't have the infrastructure like we've already mentioned to do that then it's not gonna get done well.  

T: And can I just point out something that is just the biggest slice of irony, have you seen the Labour cabinet? 

H: Yep. 

T: And we're talking about ethnicity pay gaps from the Labour government, yeah? Okay. 

H: Yeah. We're all on the same page here.  

T: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Big fat slice of irony cake there. Good.  

H: And going on from that, interestingly, Labour have said that they'd require large employers, which, you know, British government I feel qualifies, they'd require large employers to publish ethnicity and disability pay gap reports, which isn't currently mandatory, as you've already said, but it would be if this went through so, Jacqueline Mackenzie, an immigration and human rights lawyer, said that the proposals were “a bold step” and that without involving enforcement penalties and mandatory reporting “it's not actually going to make any difference.”  

T: I 50% agree with that. I agree with the latter part of her statement. If you're not going to provide people with the means and ways of actually tackling the systemic problem that they have around pay gap, then so what? You're just asking people to produce a load of numbers for the absolute sake of it.  

H: Surely that would make the pay gap larger because the people who are wanting to notice these things are gonna go "Nope.” 

T: What should be happening really is that they should be asking these organisations to produce a pay gap and then a plan attached to it of how they're going to- 

H: Yeah! Yeah, you need some actions with it.  

T: Of how they're going to narrow the pay gap. Because it just feels totally pointless.  

H: And it, yeah, it seems, well like you were saying, really disconnected from everything. Like, just saying, well yeah, we've got a racism problem doesn’t actually- 

T: And we're proud of it!  

H: Yeah, exactly! It doesn't exactly mean that they're going to do anything about that.  

T: That's so weird. 

H: Like, requiring reporting on it does not mean you have any plans of changing the status quo.  

T: No. 

H: Doesn’t mean that you want to, doesn't mean that you actually would have provided this information even if it wasn't mandatory. 

T: Who's checking this information as well? Is there somebody sat in some dank back office going through 

H: Oh, poor person! 

T: Do you know what I mean? Going through all of these figures that these companies-  

H: They really threw the short straw on that one didn't they? 

T: Right? All these companies submit every year around pay gap and going, “Hmm” like who's checking this?  

H: Yeah and is there like a number at which it's unacceptable? 

T: Yeah, do they like shut the business down indefinitely until you fix the problem?  

H: Like health and safety standards.  

T: Right, yeah, yeah.  

H: Like, rock up like, "There are rats running your business.” 

T: I just don't get it. I disagree with the fact that she said that it's a bold step. I don't think there's anything bold about asking a company to produce some pretty basic numbers at the end of the day. They should have a clear idea of what their organisation looks like. Bang it through an Excel spreadsheet and hey presto. There's nothing bold about asking a company to be more corporately responsible 

H: Slightly more transparent, yeah. 

T:  About who's working in their organisation. It is what it is. But, like I said, you know, I absolutely agree with this not going to be making much of a difference if there's not some action, something tangible to come out of this reporting. 

H: So, Annalise Dodds and Baroness Doreen Lawrence have both also spoken in favour of the proposal, saying that it would be a vital step towards tackling racial inequality at its source. Which again, I think, like you're saying, like, yes it's an important first step, but unless there's stuff attached to it, it's not gonna do anything worthwhile.  

T: I think people need to get better at asking themselves, so what?  

H: Yes.  

T: Because there has to come a point where people stop time-wasting in order to look productive, because unless you got somebody who's looking at that in your organisation and going oh this is a big fat problem let's fix it, what's the point?  

H: It's just gonna stay a piece of paper with some numbers on it. 

T: What's the point?  

H:  Interestingly, as of like last week or so. I can't find anything to say that this has progressed since Labour have been in power so... I'm just gonna leave that there, no comment, neutral statement. 

T: Okay thank you for that Henry.  

H: Just wanted to get some fact checking in.  

T: Thank you, good to know.  

H: Yeah. Another thing that I did really, especially in retrospect, find really interesting about this article though, is going back to what we were saying beforehand, the way that it was all phrased.  

T: Okay, yeah.  

H: Because this was all phrased very positively, as you would expect.  

T: Yes.  

H: But actually talking about it, which I guess is the purpose of this podcast, isn't it? Like that's what we wanted to do, is get some reality into some of these news articles, but like we were saying beforehand where things are phrased in a particular way to show biases or, you know, nice pictures are put in...  

T: It's inflammatory.  

H: Yeah. Or pacifying, which is exactly what this is. It's, wow, look at all of these wonderful things before the election that we're gonna do to make life so much better.  

T: Definitely. 

H: And actually, as we've spoken about, none of these things are tangibly gonna make a difference unless they're followed through with some real action.  

T: I agree with you. Absolutely, the content of the article is pacifying, but the article title is inflammatory. You know, pledges full equal pay for the rights of ethnic minorities. Anybody who's reading that from an ethnic minority background, goes around going, “Eh? Am I getting paid less? Am I getting paid less than I should be?” And then you've got other people that might look at that and go "Oh well yeah, that sounds right to me,” and then we're just, again, we're perpetrating a narrative that if you're an ethnic minority you are less than in this country. You're getting paid less, you're doing less you are less, less, you know? So it’s, again, it's just playing into that even though it's an article about saying that we shouldn't be doing that. 

H: But again, I’ve mentioned this before with like things like trans rights and you've had this vent many a time but if you are not intrinsically interested in this article you will read that headline and scroll past. Whether or not you consciously take that headline in that's you're gonna read it and something is either gonna get confirmed or jolted in your brain. If it gets jolted you're probably gonna click on it and probably check that. If it just gets confirmed, you're gonna scroll on, living your life thinking that ethnic minorities are less than, and there's not gonna be any cognitive way of checking that at all and that's where the danger is. Like you were saying, it's the headlines, it's the way that things are presented, it's the picture that goes along with it, which – I can't remember what it was for this article but I'll go and have a look after. 

T: Oh it’ll be something really ridiculous like a boat full of migrants. 

H: This is gonna be my pitch for this episode: if you are gonna do anything as a result of this, it's whenever you look at a story, whenever you look at anything on the internet, on the TV, when someone says something to you, just be aware of who's saying it and why, and how it's being presented. Like just, please just take five seconds to go “Hmm. Wonder why you felt the need to write it like that,” or interesting word, while especially if you see things like phrasing like “illegal,” “criminals,” like just take a moment and go "Why is that word being used? Would it be used for somebody else?” Which often the answer is no.  

T: And I know we're talking about Black History Month, but I think with the conversation and the narrative at the moment just generally around ethnic minorities, I think one of the things that is important for me to say is that there is no illegal route to asylum seeking.  

H: Yes.  

T: Every person that's seeking asylum, that is completely legal. So like you say, when you see those headlines where it's like, “illegal!” like that is just a way to be inflammatory. That is just a way to confirm any potential biases that some people might have, like you've mentioned. Dangerous and crafted. 

H: Yeah. And it's to get your heart rate up, isn't it? There’s a really nerdy science- It's the same thing when cigarette packets have, like, "You're gonna die of cancer!” on them. It's because it raises your heart rate, gets the nicotine flowing out of your brain, and makes you crave more. It's the same sort of premise as why headlines are a thing and why they are so often click-baity, knee-jerk reactions is because actually those are the ones that people, and I'm generalising massively here, the ones that “people” in inverted commas want you to think and make those instantaneous decisions. Because then you very rarely go and check those or temper them with anything, you just kind of make the decision and often those are quite dangerous. So yeah, that's my rant for today. Please be critically analytical with the things that you consume on the media. 

T: For sure, absolutely. 

H: Thank you! Thanks for coming to my TED talk! 

(MUSIC) 

H: So our spotlight for this month is a woman called Nadine White.  In 2021 she joined The Independent as the first dedicated race correspondent in UK journalism. She's covered stories on racism during the Ukraine War, she's covered the use of slurs in official UK government documents, which I imagine is a very interesting read. 

T: Bet it is. 

H: Jamaica's plans to become a republic. She's also started a race report newsletter with The Independent and has loads of accolades to her name. She's on the Forbes Under 30 list, the Paulette Wilson Windrush Award, which is alliteration for the ages. She's the first Black reporter to be shortlisted for the Paul Foote Award for investigative or campaigning journalism.  

T: Good for her.  

H: She is such a cool person. And also this Race Report newsletter, it's free to sign up to if you go onto The Independent, or search the name of the newsletter. It’s literally just a pop your email in and you get like a weekly update.  

T: Cool! 

H: And it's really interesting. I've signed up for it since finding this article really and it's really interesting because she's very opinionated in a really really good way because it is essentially all of that fact-checking. Like she kind of gives you a statement, something like "The government have said this. I think that's a rubbish idea, actually,” and kind of does a bit of that fact-checking or prompts you to do a bit of that fact-checking by yourself but actually her word on things is often, and I want to say always, but  often based on data, on another report that was produced so it's really really interesting newsletter I'd really recommend.  

T: It sounds great, I'm gonna sign up, I've not actually heard of this.  

H: It's great fun.  

T: Go Nadine!  

H: Yeah! 

(MUSIC) 

H: So we've got a couple of FAQs come in this month and our first one is: Why do we say anti-racist? What is the significance of that shift in language as opposed to just, you know, not being racist? # 

T: Okay so this is, I believe this is relatively new language that's come about.  

H: Yeah I think it is.  

H: And the sentiment behind it is that it's not enough to just be not racist. The problems that we've got throughout multiple societies, but obviously talking about the UK, is that racism in this country is so systemic that in order to tackle the problem, we have to be actively thinking about it, we have to be actively anti-racist rather than just pacifying and being not racist. So not contributing to the problem of racism, but also if you're not an anti-racist, you're not doing anything about it to eliminate it, either. 

H: It’s like that whole silence is complicity sort of thing. Like you actually need to be actively speaking out against it.  

T: Yes.  

H: Being an active ally, I guess, rather than being, I'm an ally because I'm not racist. 

T: Yeah, absolutely. So that's simply what it means, there's nothing sinister behind it, there's nothing secretive at all. It's being that person in the room where particularly if you're a White person and you can leverage that White privilege, is looking at the situation and being, “Okay so how do I actually actively eliminate any prejudice, discrimination, racism that's going on in the room right now. How can I be more of an ally in this situation? What can I do to speak up and move this problem, move to eliminate this problem?”  

H: Yeah, I think, like you said, it's a fairly new language and I think a lot of people kind of assume because it's got the word anti in it, it's something negative, it's something angry. You know what, yeah, it is angry but it should be. 

T: Against racism. 

H: Yeah, I feel like that's very valid.  

T: I think that's fine.  

H: Yeah, because I've heard a lot of tone-policing with this one.  

T: Yeah yeah. 

H: And I think especially with the people that I'm talking to who have been White, kind of going, oh, can't we just say that we're not racist? And it's like, no, that's a different thing.  

T: That's like, you know, it's such the bare minimum as well, like, “Oh, I'm not a racist,” oh, great. 

H: Yeah, I should hope so! Because we've moved beyond the 1600s. 

T: Yeah, bizarre, isn't it? 

H: Yeah, so I think, yeah, there's a lot of assumption and myth-busting when it comes to being anti-racist because it's a good thing, and it should be expected.  

T: Yeah, we need more anti-racists. 

H: Yes. 

T: We need an army of anti-racists, that's what we want. Absolutely. Okay.  

H: Great. And second question with that in mind. 

T: Yes? 

H: What is your best piece of advice for trying to be anti-racist?  

T: Okay. 

H: So I feel like we can come at this from different perspectives.  

T: Yes.  

H: From a Black perspective and a White perspective here.  

T: Absolutely. 

H: So this is going to be an interesting one.  

T: I would like people to spend a bit more time doing some critical thinking. One of the biggest issues that I still see in my daily life, and this really speaks to the type of racism that we see in the UK. It's a lot more covert, it's a lot more insidious, it's a lot more systemic than what you might think. When you think racism, we're not talking about people throwing out slurs on the street constantly, although that is literally what we saw a couple of weeks ago with the far-right riots. But for the most part, when we talk about racism in the UK, it's structural. And what I urge people to do is understand the structures that are in place. So I guess it comes down to education. I could just throw stats at you: If you're a Black woman in this country you are four times more likely to die in childbirth. If you are a Black man in this country you are six times more likely to be convicted than your White counterpart. If you're a Black person in this country you're more likely to be stopped in your vehicle – in your own vehicle – to see if it was actually yours. There's so many systems that play here where you have a poorer quality of life in this country if you are a Black person. Housing, policing, education, health, all of it. Your outcomes in this country if you are a Black person are statistically worse and that's what needs to change. So when we're talking about anti-racism, those are the structures that need to be broken and that can only be done by the people that are in charge of those structures which, guess what, isn't the Black people. For the most part obviously there are people who are Black and very successful in this country. That's not what I'm saying! Yeah. 

H: Yeah so from my perspective I think knowing when to shut up. As someone who loves the sound of his own voice it's something that I've really had to learn well and I think, as you were saying, with the educational side of things actually I know that this has been lacking a lot in my childhood and actually a lot of my adolescent years as well I know that I need to do a lot of work to even just level out that awareness let alone anything else. So my best piece of advice, for White people particularly, is know when to shut up and listen, when is not your time to talk. And actually quite easy, it's not that hard to stop. Much easier than doing something a lot of the time! But especially if you're in a diverse room, just not jumping in immediately helps. Not answering the question first helps. Like just take a moment, wait for someone else to respond first, even if that response is a, I don't know, anyone else got any ideas? I think flip the narrative a little bit, wait for yourself to be invited to speak, I think that's often quite a powerful thing to do. Obviously it kind of, it's contextual, it depends on the situation, depends on your area of knowledge as well, but I think it's a nice thing to aim for is to know when is your place to talk.  

T: I think another thing that I'd add as well is that if you're the sort of person that is keen to become an anti-racist and you are genuinely passionate about wanting to break down the constructs of racism, particularly in the UK, I urge you to go and research modern White supremacy.  

H: Yes.  

T: Because when you start to pull the thread of what White supremacy looks like and how we are all contained within it as a society, it's absolutely mind-blowing because it affects everything and it's not just about racism, it's around transphobia, it's around disability, it's around all of those competing intersections of life that we see. And yeah, like I say, once you pull the thread, it's kind of mind-expanding to a fantastic level so yeah that's what I'd do. And I'm sure we can share a couple of book recommendations as well in our little blurb on this for people who are interested. 

H: Exactly and I'm gonna caveat my know when to shut up which ironically I don't at the moment but I'm gonna caveat that with knowing when to challenge things as well. 

T: Yes! 

H: Because so often things are said, not necessarily overtly racist things, but microaggressions, just the way that somebody looks at someone – I don't think there is a way to know when to challenge unless you feel a bit uncomfortable with it and that comes with awareness with learning these things with hearing more opinions on these topics but if something doesn't feel right to you, say something. 

T: And you can do it in the most British way as well.  

H: Oh yeah. Oh absolutely. You can really have fun with this one.  

T: You can really really go into like the levels of absolute perfection passive aggressive Britishness where you can just sit and go, "Oh what an odd thing to say out loud.” 

H: I love that. 

T: Or you can: “I don't really understand the joke” you know? “Oh gosh, I'm really surprised you’d say something like that!” There's just so many ways to bring someone up on some of the absolute nonsense that they might be spouting.  

H: Yeah and there are other ways of doing it as well like if you notice something that has happened check in with the person that it was directed at.  

T: Absolutely.  

H: It can be something quiet and just be like hey I noticed this, are you okay? It doesn't always have to be a really big staunch I'm a hero sort of- 

T: No, not at all. White saviour. 

H: And actually sometimes those are the better ways to handle things is to check in with the person. It shows that you don't condone it. That's what needs to be more of I think like, move away from letting things happen.  

T: From being the bystander. You’re going from the not racist to anti-racist.  

H: Exactly, yeah. And those don't always have to be huge, massive activist actions. Like sometimes it's just human. Well, most of the time it's just human. 

T: Empathy. And compassion.  

H: Yeah, exactly.  

(MUSIC) 

T:  Thanks for joining us for this episode of D&I Digest. It's been a good long conversation. I feel like some of these articles were really meaty actually to try and dissect and get into and I think it's been a great discussion. Remember that you can follow us on the website and our social media and we hope you come back and listen next month. So it's bye from me.  

H: And bye from me. 

Both: Bye!