What about the cis, straight, White men?

This episode, we're talking about something often not mentioned in D&I spaces, and that's the involvement of cisgender, straight, White men, and how it feels to talk about inclusion without involving a huge demographic.

You can read the two articles here:
Does D&I ignore white men, and what can we do about it?
White men who experience workplace harassment become allies of diversity efforts.

Our D&I Spotlight this month is Daniele Fiandaca (I hope we've pronounced your name right, Daniele, and sorry if we haven't!) You can find him on LinkedIn here.

If you have a question for us, then you can submit it through this form.

Music used is:
Who Do You Think I Think You Are? by Mini Vandals

Transcript

H: Welcome back to another episode of D&I Digest. I'm Henry, I use he/they pronouns.  

T: And I'm Teagan, and I use she her pronouns.  

H: We make up the Diversity and Inclusion team at Anchor, which is an organisation which specialises in housing and care for over 55s.  

T: This month we're talking about a topic I don't think we've really covered much yet, and that is about straight, cisgender, White men. And they're usually not a group that are central to the conversation around D&I, and if they are... 

H: Fair reason.  

T: Yeah, fair reason, obviously. And if they are, it’s not usually a particularly friendly conversation so I think we can dig into this a little bit I reckon.  

H: Yeah I've noticed that, well admittedly we're in like a female dominated space I guess with Anchor, but there is a real lack of men in D&I spaces and even kind of going to events, conferences, webinars, workshops, I always, kind of doubly so, being a trans person, but like I am in a minority of being like an overtly male person. But yeah, so it feels really weird to have a lot of these conversations without...  

T: Without the majority in the room?  

H: Yeah.  

T: Strange, right? 

H: Yeah, wild.  

T: Yeah, I'd agree with that. I think, yeah, even when you, like you said, with conferences, I think when you have a look at other staff networks, it's usually a woman or a female presenting person who is looking at D&I, most D&I managers that I've come across are also women. And if they are men they also fall into- 

H: There's another protected characteristic somewhere in there.  

T: Correct, so they're usually someone who is queer or they're someone who is disabled or someone who is Black or whatever it might be they don't fall into the specific category that we're talking about today, which is straight white cisgender men.  

H: Yes. 

T: Yeah, very rare to see.  

H: Yeah. For you, because I feel like this is a really interesting one in terms of how it feels. So going into, like, D&I spaces and not having that genre of person- 

T: Genre! 

H: I'm gonna use that now. 

T: I love it, that’s great! 

H: Short hand. But not seeing that type of person visibly. Like obviously there are some assumptions that come with that. But how does that feel for you?  

T: It's interesting because I think I would automatically feel more comfortable in a space where I wasn't surrounded by straight White men, largely. Just because of past experiences and the fact that it can be quite intimidating to be in a room with people where nobody looks like you.  

H: Yeah, 100%. 

T: So for that reason alone I probably feel an unconscious sense of comfort from it. But I have absolutely no reason to not want White straight men in this space. My husband's a White straight man. He would quite happily chew your ear off about anything D&I all day every day. He probably knows more about particularly the transatlantic slave trade than I do. Not joking, he's very well read on it. And he wouldn't take part in any of his networks in his previous job and I said why? He was like it's not for me. I don't need that space.  

H: Which I think is- 

T: I was like, okay, interesting. 

H: It's interesting when that space is curated for kind of peer support reasons and like for example, the LGBT network. I feel like if someone who didn't identify that way kind of joined to be an ally actually it's probably not the space for that person but there are always ways to get involved as an ally and that's the bit where I very rarely see straight White men, cis men, in those spaces. For me, I feel like I experienced this differently because there's that level of actually this does feel a bit more comfortable because, as you say, generally speaking, the men who are in D&I spaces fall into another protected characteristic somewhere.  

T: Yeah, a lot of the time.  

H: But also it's very strange, or it used to be stranger when I looked, when I tried to visually fit in a little bit more, now I'm like, nah, nevermind. But because I would get put into that box looking like a White straight cis man, and it’s so jarring. So it always feels really weird to me where I look like the outsider because I know that I am not and it's very uncomfortable. 

T: Have you been in a space anytime in your life where you've been like subject to the locker room talk now? 

H: Oh yeah.  

T: Because you are in those white male spaces.  

H: Oh a lot of times. Yeah.  

T: Weird. I bet that is just the most jarring situation to find yourself in.  

H: Yeah. 

T: It’s like if I went into a room and everybody was White and there was like a conversation about racism and people thought I was White.  

H: Yeah, it is! 

T: It's just like so weird.  

H: The number of times I've been caught on the wrong end of the conversation where people have thought I've been a safe person to go, “Oh I just don't get pronouns, I'm like, "Uhhh,” or like some bold claim about trans people and it's just kind of been like well now you've locked me into a position where either I out myself- 

T: And you're you're unsafe. 

H: And I'm unsafe because you've just given me that opinion or I've got to sit and listen to it. And none of those are good.  

T: No. 

H: So, yeah, yeah, it's very weird.  

T: Very strange. 

H: And I think as well, within D&I spaces, being assumed to be that demographic of this doesn't really affect you, I get spoken to a lot like it doesn't really affect me.  

T: OK.  

H: And that is an interesting one, especially where I'm kind of coming at it from a perspective of like, I've seen things you wouldn't conceive of. 

T: Yes.  

H: And it’s frustrating. 

T: I think the only way I can relate to that on some level is growing up being, well, as soon as I was able to ascertain what that felt like, being a bisexual woman and people assuming... 

H: Yeah, there’s a lot of erasure in that 

T: Yeah, and then people assuming that I was straight. And people still do that now. I mean, I've just said, I've got a husband, so people are more comfortable doing that now. And even now, it's like, "Well you’re married now, so you can't possibly be bisexual” like that is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life, but okay, so that's the only thing I can liken it to is that you say it's those invisible characteristics of yourself, isn't it, where people start making these bold assumptions and then put you in a predicament where you're like “Ah, I'm not who you think I am!” 

H: Yeah, I’m an undercover agent! 

T: Yeah, this is weird for me now! 

H: There’s a phrase of like ‘being stealth’ in a position, so I've only really seen it with regard to trans things, I'm sure that it comes in other areas as well. But, for instance, if I joined a workplace and didn't tell anybody I was trans- 

T: Yes! Yes, I’ve heard of this! 

H: People would assume that I'm cis. Because for people who can't see me, I've got facial hair, I mean I'm short, but that is about the only thing that really kind of gives anything away? And actually most people wouldn't assume that. So yeah that would be kind of going stealth is where I'm not outing myself and everyone just kind of assumes. 

T: Would you ever find yourself comfortable to do that though or do you feel like it's kind of just boxing off a part of you that...  

H: Yeah, this is part of the reason why I use he/they pronouns actually because a lot of these really uncomfortable conversations happened when I used he/him. So it, for me that clarification of actually I am not a binary person in the same way that you are, that's a bit of a signaler because either people look at my pronoun badge and go, "Ooh I'm not gonna broach that one,” or they're already on side. And if I'm totally honest, in my day-to-day life, very different question at work, my day-to-day life I've just not got the energy for it, I'm done with it. So yeah, for me being a trans person is a huge part of my identity and I think in a similar way to you kind of mentioned the “I don't see colour” statement- 

T: Eyeroll. 

H: In that actually that just negates a whole aspect of you. 

T: Yeah, it's...  

H: I feel like I can relate to that in that angle because being trans has had some really not great aspects to it but on the flip side of that I am now incredibly happy with who I am. I understand myself a lot better than I think a lot of people ever will, and I've made myself a person I'm proud to be. To cut that out of my narrative- 

T: And be stealth. 

H: And be stealth, although it sounds incredibly cool, just erases that whole aspect of me and puts me into a box where I've suddenly got feelings and experiences that I don't have. 

T: Yeah, how strange. 

H: Yeah. So that’s a bit of a sidetrack! 

T: Fascinating, absolutely fascinating.  

MUSIC 

T: Our first article is from DNI Leaders called “Does DNI Ignore White Men and What Can We Do About It?” And it basically stems from a popular question they received at Global Forum last year, which is how do we get White senior level men, typically in the majority of organisations, on board with inclusion, which is the head scratcher of all time, isn't it? The White Men’s  Leadership Study in 2022 said that 70% of men feel forgotten by D&I initiatives in organisations despite the fact that globally they possess more than 40% of the leadership positions in companies. Daniele Fiandaca suggests that we often lead from a sense of hurt and anger in D&I. And that creates a disconnection because it can feel like blame is being apportioned and because men are often only spoken about as allies or when we're discussing recruitment. So, what do you think? Is Daniele right?  

H: Well, it is definitely something that I've noticed and to be honest, I think something that I do quite a lot when I'm talking about, again for instance trans inclusion, I speak from my experience and a lot of that is hurt and anger. I'll be honest.  

T: Okay, fine.  

H: I think it's very hard to be objective when we're talking about things that we've experienced which is kind of exactly why I think more people should be speaking up as allies because actually they've they add that objective approach. So yeah, I can personally relate to what he's saying because I have been spoken to as an ally in these spaces and nothing else, and I do often lead my D&I conversations with, you need to empathically understand how I felt because that gives you a bit of an impetus to action. So I do get it, I don't think that is the only way to look at this. 

T: Yeah. 

H: I think there is a bit of a disconnect in actually there will be a bunch of White men in this situation who do really want to help and who can see that it's a very sensible thing to get involved in. So yeah, I can personally relate to this actually quite a bit.  

T: Okay.  

H: But mostly in terms of the perceptions that are put on me.  

T: Sure.  

H: What about you? 

T: The cogs of my mind are turning. I'm struggling and the reason I'm struggling is because when we talk about D&I in its broadest sense what we're talking about is creating - particularly workspaces in this context - creating a workspace where everybody can be at their best. Do their best work, come into work feel comfortable blah blah blah. For White men, it is their workspace.  

H: Yeah.  

T: It's always been their workspace. It's not really that different for them.  

H: Exactly. And I think that's why it can feel... I mean, I know that he didn't say this, but I feel like that's where that kind of sense of blame comes in. It’s because if something's working for you, being told that that's not working for everybody kind of implies - and we mentioned this in the meritocracy thing - kind of implies that you didn't get there well. Or you didn't get there off your own ability and I think that's where the blame comes in. But also that's the case.  

T: I think I've got a problem with the word blame. I think that's what I'm struggling with because I've never walked into a workspace or even had a work-related D&I conversation where someone's turned around and said to me, the reason that this is the way it is of all the white men that work here. 

H: Specifically Jeff. Like, yeah, yeah, it feels very personal.  

T: Yeah, like, that's not what's happening. 

H: It's not, no.  

T: And it takes me back to - have you ever heard of a book called White Fragility by Robin DiAngelo?  

H: No. 

T: Fantastic book, I do urge anyone to read it. But she talks about White fragility and White guilt. And this feels very much like that. It's like, “Oh well, everything's changing around me.” 

H: “Someone make it easier for me to manage.” 

T: Yeah, “N o one's doing anything to benefit me anymore. We're all focused on what we can do to make spaces better in terms of accessibility, trans inclusion, ethnic inclusion, blah, blah, blah, blah. What happens for me?”  

H: I feel forgotten. 

T: And it's like, yeah, I feel forgotten about, or I feel like everyone's blaming me. That’s a really insular view to have the situation and that is problematic in itself. 

H: I think there's something to be said with when we saw the Me Too movement where there was a big narrative with the not all men thing and, again, this was a space that I'd been pushed into which was very interesting, but you had to really kind of spell it out for someone saying like, “If it's not you, good. Like that's fine.” 

T: Great.  

H: We’re not talking about you. 

T: We're not talking about you then, am I?  

H: Yeah, like, and you need to have that awareness where actually some of these discussions you just need to go, not for me. Take a step back.  

T: I totally agree. We can put ourselves in a kind of similar position to this. I thought, me and you are both able-bodied people. Do I think for one second that if someone came in and said, "Right, this place, we're gonna have to do a massive overhaul because it's really not accessible and it might work for you, Teagan this is working for you, but it's not working for everybody else, alright?” In that situation I’d be like, “Yeah, you're right. Yeah." 

H: “Okay.” 

T: That's it. That's all, because you're right. I have a degree of privilege here because I'm able-bodied I don't have to think about these things.  

H: Yeah  

T: Spot on 

H: Exactly, there's a moment We've just got to step back and go "Cool, I'm not in that conversation.”  

T: That should be attitude here.  

H: Yeah. 

T: So I struggle when we're having a look at this conversation and people are like "Oh, I feel like I'm being blamed.” Hm, just be part of the solution then.  

H: Yeah.  

T: Fly the flag, get on board, insert other metaphor here. You have to be part of the solution then. You can't sit back and be like, oh well I'm benefiting from this and because at some point everybody else is gonna start benefiting from it, then that's a problem.  

H: Yeah. 

T: No, no, no, no, no, no. 

H: I think you're right like that aspect of blame is insular. That's a you problem, and without wanting to sound too brutal, at some point you've just got to get over that.  

T: Mm. Yeah, you have. 

H: Like,and I can get a certain amount of this, with the whole White privilege thing. Because there was a huge chunk of time, and honestly still something that gets its like, ugly little fingers into my brain, where I’m like, “Ugh, that’s your fault.” And I’m like, I did not create this situation. I am not instrumental in the systemic, but I can do something about it now. And I think yeah, that's the thing of actually, yeah, you might feel like you're being blamed. Move on. 

T: Yeah, it's not a reason to feel 

H: It's not a reason to stop. 

T: It's not a reason to feel like you're not welcome in those spaces as far as I'm concerned. Every single activity, initiative, drive around D&I has to be done with purpose. It has to be done with intent. It doesn't happen organically. None of this happens organically. Because you know what happens when you do D&I organically? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It doesn't exist. It's not real. Like it's an absolute fallacy. You can't do it. Everything has to be done with intention and purpose. So you can't sit back as someone who can access such a degree of privilege and say, “Oh well you all think I’m the problem so I'm gonna remain that way.” 

H: Yeah, well yeah, that's the thing, like you can just get over yourself and kind of do something at that point. 

T: Exactly. So Lee Chambers, a psychologist and director of Male Allies UK, suggests that actually the challenges in engaging men come from a misunderstanding of privilege. He says that privilege is not what you have, it's what you don't have to face. It's often those small inner thoughts that you don't have to have because you're in a dominant group. Okay.  

H: I quite like the phrasing of that: actually it's not what you do have, it's what you don't lack and I like that rephrasing of it personally.  

T: Yeah I quite like that, I mean we've just pretty much had that discussion about not having to think about things.  

H: Sorry Lee, got there first. 

T: Yeah, sorry to cut you off, Lee. But it's true, and I think that I certainly went through a weird phase with a lot of my peers and friends in 2020 where the conversation about privilege really came to the forefront and it did not sit well with a lot of people. 

H: This was actually the turning point for me when I was like, get over yourself. And I hope since then I've been like, sort yourself out, Henry! 

T: Yeah, it's difficult to have a mirror held up to your actions, but they're your actions. 

H: It's necessary, yeah. And actually, if they're not your actions, if you're still feeling blamed for them, then you need to acknowledge that you're not the problem in this situation. And as you very rightly said, become the solution.It's just such a non-issue.  

T: I agree. He said that there's a level of apathy around D&I because they think the issues have been solved or addressed. Yeah that's interesting actually we'll come back to that. And there's recent research suggesting that 53% of both sexes..? 

H: According to the research. 

T: Okay, think that gender equality has gone far enough. Ooh. 

H: I think I can speak a little bit to this later on.  

T: Grim. And so people are wondering why it's relevant because they haven't seen the changes. Okay, Chambers suggests a way around this is to highlight how everyone has faced exclusion at some point in their life. Yeah. And getting them to think about how that felt. He says that men care immensely, they're just not conditioned to express that. Thoughts? 

H: I think there are areas of this that I agree with. 

T: Sure. 

H: And areas that I don't. 

T: Okay. 

H: So the bit that I do agree with is, is the apathy if it's not something you personally have experienced. 

T: Is that not just British sensibilities? 

H: Yeah, and I think as well it goes back to what we were talking about last month, where actually it's not something that's been taught from a young age. So again, for example, I was not taught about Black history for a lot of my youth, and therefore I was apathetic because I didn't know there was something that I needed to be angry about. 

T: Yeah, quite right, yeah. 

H: So, I can see that. And I've definitely seen people say that gender equality, like we're finished here, we've done the job right? And I've seen it come from men and women. And actually, personally I've seen it come more from women, which concerns me. But also, as you hesitated, the research suggests both sexes, so it's already proving itself wrong. Yeah, so, I understand that bit and I do, I get what he’s saying about people wondering why it's relevant because they haven't been the ones to visibly be affected by these changes. 

T: Sure. 

H: I don't agree with the, “We need to highlight how everyone has faced exclusion in some point in their lives.” 

T: Oh, so glad we agree on this. 

H: In order to be empathetic. Like that seems- 

T: Weird, isn’t it? 

H: Seems if I'm honest, it seems like firstly we're not giving, in this case, men credit. It seems like we're talking to them like three-year-olds. 

T: Yeah. 

H: And secondly it feels like really lazy. Like you should not need to go, “I can understand because at one point I was bullied for having a particular hairstyle and therefore I understand systemic injustice.” 

T: Can I please tell you an anecdote?  

H: Oh go on! I'm a bit scared, but. 

T: Okay, so I'm sure I've said on several points in this podcast that I went to a very large school and there was two kids in the school that were Black. I was one of them, my cousin was the other, right. 

H: I don't like the way this is going! 

T: Okay, I can remember it's like it was yesterday, it's so vivid. I was in year 10 and I went into an assembly and it was all, you know, this assembly hall was like sat in a theatre and it was all sort of rowed tiered seats. And the teacher kicks off the assembly, she's like, "Stand up if you've got blonde hair.” 

H: Oh no. 

T: All the blonde haired kids stand up. “Stand up if you've got ginger hair.” A few redheaded kids stand up. And this goes on and she's like, "And imagine what it feels like if you were excluded for doing X, Y, Z because you had blonde hair. That's what it feels like when people experience racism.” And I'm not joking, I went goodbye and I left this assembly. It was the wildest thing I have ever, ever had to sit through in my life. So that happened and I asked my mum to come into the school to supervise a conversation between us and basically just told her how completely inappropriate that it was, how it was just the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life so it just made me laugh when you were talking about that and that's exactly where my mind went when I read that I was like, we have got to stop thinking it's appropriate to compare apples with oranges. 

H: And also, like, you don't need to understand something to be- 

T: To know it's wrong. 

H: Yeah, to be empathetic, to be kind, to know it's utter nonsense. 

T: Yeah. 

H: Like I've seen this a lot with non-binary people: people going, I just don't, I don't get it. And it's like, you don't need to get it. 

T: You don't have to. 

H: I don't get astrophysics. It doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I don't understand Spanish. It doesn't mean that Spaniards aren't people. Like, we've got to get away from this idea of I need to understand everything so that I can- 

T: Be an ally. 

H: Be an ally so that I can contribute somehow to this conversation. 

T: Yeah, or so that I don't dismiss it completely as reality. 

H: Yeah! Like, sometimes you just need to go, “I will never get that,” which I think is a lot of the times the case and go, “But you're still a human and there's still something I can do to make that a little bit better.” 

T: Yeah, it's not appropriate to get a bunch of men in a room and say, "Oh think about a time you were excluded” and the last time they were excluded is because I didn't have the latest Man United kit, and they weren't asked to play in the football game. 

H: Gutted. 

T: Do you know what I mean? And compare that with being beaten to death on the on the street for being an ethnic minority. It’s not the same! 

H: And also none of those things are intrinsic parts of a person.  

T: Absolutely. 

H: Like, you can dye your hair. You can buy something- 

T: Buy a football kit. 

H: Yeah, buy something that makes you a little bit more up to date. Being bullied for a protected characteristic is in no way going to be the same as being bullied for anything else Because you can change anything else. That's why they're protected characteristics, is because you can't do anything about them! 

T: Yeah, exactly that. 

H: Like nor would I want to, actually just to add that in. 

T: Exactly. Yeah, yeah strange. Okay. Sandra Ondraschek-Norris, VP of Global Learning Design at Catalyst, said that often senior leaders are committed to inclusion but not sure how to turn that commitment into meaningful action. Yeah, I mean we've said this so many times. It's a complex topic and inclusion can't be discussed without looking at masculinity and masculine norms. Totally agree 

H: Agreed, yep. 

T: And she said that a gender partnership approach can look at the causes of gender imbalance in an organisation, the barriers to equality, and how men can drive change in a credible, informed, and authentic way. Love that Sandra. And the article finishes with another quotation from Fiandaca. “Part of engaging men is recognising that they also need support and that we need to bring them on that journey.” Okay. So. 

H: Yeah. I think water is wet. If I'm totally honest, I don't think this article does him justice. I've seen him talk a bit more authentically in other spaces and it feels more authentic and it feels like he's not trying to appease a certain group of people, which it kind of feels like in this article. 

T: Yeah. Sandra’s saying that basically we need to start looking at masculinity and masculine norms in the workplace. 

H: Yep. 

T: I totally agree with that, because I think that's at the root of a lot of the issues that men might be experiencing in terms of not being involved in the discussion around D&I. So, okay, fine. What does that look like for you in the workplace then? How do you see those conversations coming about? What impact do you think it will have?  

H: So I think this kind of comes down to a bit of a bigger thing, if I'm honest. Because for me, the first thing that I kind of think about when we're talking about gender equality, gender equity, masculinity, femininity, is that there needs to be an acknowledgement of how that affects everybody. Because I'm so sick of the number of times where cis women don't think they're affected by the patriarchy or where...  

T: Do people actually think that? 

H: Yep! And actually this is where the root that I've heard that come out is where, particularly women, say, "Ugh, men,” and it's like actually men are not the problem the way that they've been socialised is, the patriarchy is, actually a lot of your attitudes are the same, just flipped and that's the bit that really annoys me as you'd probably expect because firstly it ignores intersectionality utterly. 

T: It does. 

H: I challenge anyone to look at me and go, you're a really toxic man. And I'm sure that there are aspects in which I am very toxic, but I don't think masculinity is one of those. 

T:  Sure.  

H: So- 

T: Just cue you getting blasted in the comments section. 

H: Yeah, you know what, fair play. Go for it. But I think that there's a lot of disconnect with a lot of people, and I’m looking at this particularly from like an outside of binary sort of a gender perspective where people associate masculinity with men and femininity with women and therefore you can only have one. And I think I just, I get very frustrated with this because the number of times where I've heard extremely patriarchal views be regurgitated by cis women and it's- 

T: Like what? 

H: Um, trans people being unsafe in bathrooms. 

T: Oh yes, of course! 

H: Prime example. 

T: This is an absolutely patriarchal vision. 

H: Yeah, and actually where you've kind of got to challenge it a bit and go, so what is your problem? Is it men in your bathrooms? Because trans women are not men. 

T: No. 

H: Is it penises in your bathrooms? When's the last time you saw someone else's genital in your bathroom?! Like, let's pull it apart a little bit. 

T: So true, though. 

H: And I think some of them are very understandable, very justified actually, like you know, women are a lot more likely to be abused by men. Yeah, fair enough. But letting that narrative drive particularly D&I initiatives won't work and D&I can't be looked at without looking at masculinity, patriarchy, femininity, those binaries and going that's nonsense. And I think a lot of what D&I is, like we've already mentioned, is kind of pulling at those threads and going “Oh no the whole thing's unraveled!” 

T: Yeah, big time. 

H: Great. 

T: You can ask many working men in work spaces now, especially if they've got a family at home, they've got children, if you ask them, “Would you like to go spend more time with your kids?” I guarantee a large majority would say yes. However, the structures of the patriarchy are still firmly set in place where you've got paternity leave which lasts about two weeks and then you've got maternity leave which is anywhere from two weeks to up to a year for some people. So it's structures like that that are in place that if we actually just remove that patriarchal view that we have of a family set up, men would benefit from that.  

H: Exactly. 

T: They would feel better about being able to spend more time at home with their families. And it's not like it was, you can't be the nuclear family anymore. The wife doesn't stay at home and do all the child rearing, man goes out to work and puts food on the table. That doesn't exist. You need two income households to do that, right? So the fact that we're then not moving on with that in terms of family-friendly rights absolutely plays into this idea of we're still holding up these patriarchal views. How does that then affect the male psyche in the workplace? 

H: Yes and I think that's exactly it, is like actually a lot of the ways that particularly this article is written to say like we need to be sympathetic to men and kind of relate things to them. I think that does exactly what you say, it just upholds all of those ideas and similar to the boys will be boys narrative and it's like give them credit, they are thinking human beings- they know that that's not how that works. Like, at some point you've got to stop babying people and go, yeah, either own up to it or acknowledge that it doesn't actually impact you. 

T: Sure. 

H: And that's okay. But I think this article, there's a lot of, we need to be careful, we need to talk in a way that doesn't alienate people but actually in doing so you are doing that and there doesn't seem to be that connection there in my opinion. 

T: Yes, I’d agree with that. 

(MUSIC) 

T: Article two, from a science journal, and also from this year, is called, “White men who experience workplace harassment become allies of diversity efforts.” Basically it outlines a study that said that White men are less likely to experience discrimination and harassment in the workplace – obviously – but when they're treated poorly by colleagues through bullying and physical intimidation, they're more likely to recognise race and gender bias and take more action. Okay, interesting. Views? 

H: To be honest, it feels exactly the same as like the, once you've been a victim of the patriarchy, you realise that it's hurting everybody. Like on the one hand I'm so glad that a scientific journal has justified this and kind of put it in authoritative words on the other hand I feel like anybody could have told you that.  

T: Yeah, seriously yes. And it goes back to the earlier article when it was talking about D&I coming from a place of hurt. 

H: Yeah, yeah. 

T: So I mean is this article illustrating that it has to always come from that place then yeah? Because people are simply not empathetic enough to just do something about something that doesn't affect them. 

H: Right. And I think like there is an element of once you can see something personally or in your periphery, I think you are going to be more likely to want to change it. I think that's definitely true because I hate the phrase but you don't know what you don't know. So obviously there's going to be correlation there, but that doesn't mean that you need that. 

T: No. 

 H: And that’s where I think my beef comes with all of this conversation is like you can just be a decent or you can just try to be a decent human being? 

T: Yeah, and not have to experience hardship to understand hardship exactly. 

H: Exactly, yeah. 

T: Erin Cech, the study author and professor of sociology said that when White men experience harassment, it dispels a taken for granted belief that their workplace operates meritocratically? 

H: Meritocratically! I love that word. 

T: Big word. And that belief can serve as a blinder to bias recognition and reporting. Okay yeah. Thoughts? 

H: I like that meritocracy is incorporated in this sense because you often hear it in terms of learned skills and we mentioned this in our episode on meritocracy. 

T: We did. 

H: Go back and listen to that. But you very rarely hear it in a kind of a systemic way, wherein you don't have to have tried to benefit from meritocracy, you just get it. So I quite like that she's using it in that way here. However, it does kind of imply, and maybe I'm overthinking this one, that if you've, if you're taking meritocracy in terms of not being abused in your workplace, it kind of implies that there's some kind of justification in that, which doesn't quite sit well with me. It kind of implies that you’ve not experienced harassment because you don't deserve to experience harassment. 

T: Okay, yeah, I see what you're coming from. 

H: Which maybe I'm reading it slightly differently to how it's meant. 

T: I see what you're coming from though. 

H: There's something in there that feels a bit like I don't know if it's the right word. I quite like that it is being applied in that context, but I don't know if it's accurate. 

T: If it fits in the right context. 

H: Yeah. 

T: Yeah, that's fair enough. Okay, so she goes on to add that "Asking White men to reflect on their own negative treatment at work can foster fruitful skepticism about the meritocratic operation of their workplace. This skepticism may facilitate a greater willingness to acknowledge unfair treatment experienced by colleagues and take action.” Workplace D&I efforts should take into account that own experiences act as proxies for everybody else's experiences. Using individual experiences even if they're not strict parallels may enable that critique of the status quo and stave off defensiveness. Yeah, it goes back to the times that we've made points about storytelling, very powerful, it does evoke that empathy in people and those people that are then feeling empathetic on the other side of that haven't experienced what you've just told them. It's just evoked in them because storytelling can be that powerful. And, you know, every experience is individual, it's unique, we say this all the time and we don't want to talk about people as homogenous groups, that's why I take such umbrage with the acronym BAME, it's stupid. My experiences as a person of my background are not going to be the same as someone who's mixed race with someone who's Chinese and Japanese. It's not the same, you know? So, it's true. We can start to use these stories in the workplace to unpick some of the unfairness and inequity that we see in workplaces. Absolutely fine. But when it comes to men getting involved in that, then they should be still in the room to hear those stories and understand that these things are happening. White men particularly. Yeah. 

H: Yeah, I agree. Great.  

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H: So our spotlight this month is actually the person who was mentioned in Article 1, Daniele Fiandaca. And the reason I picked him is because, while I do think that the article kind of did him dirty a little bit, to be honest, so I follow him on LinkedIn and this is why I've picked him as a spotlight, not from the article, from the way that he speaks on LinkedIn. So he's the founder, and I love the title of this, he's the founder of Token Man Consultancy. 

T: Love it. 

H: Which is an initiative to give men in industry a better understanding of the challenges that women face in business and have a greater empathy for situations where they find themselves in the minority. So he basically does a lot of work amplifying voices, and he's quite open in talking about his allyship, which is, I think, what this episode is kind of focused on, is like, be louder. And yeah, he's very open about the fact that that was quite hard initially, and that he's kind of had to do a lot of unpicking of his own biases, his own perceptions. And one thing that I really liked actually was that he did recently a bit of an experiment around painting his nails which is not something he's ever done before. He took it as a bit of a, I wouldn't say a challenge, but an experiment to paint his nails and wear a skirt. And, it was a really fun one to see because I think he attended Pride with painted nails and a skirt on. 

T: Right. 

H: But he said, with regard to this, “While I have found painting my nails very safe, wearing a skirt felt different, primarily because my wife was worried for my safety." And I just thought it was very interesting that he's been able to unpack that and that, in all honesty, that he was willing to kind of do it to get a bit of experience in “Oh that's uncomfortable.” Why? Actually it's because someone else is worried for my safety, not necessarily for me.  

T: But then why is she worried for his safety? 

H: Exactly and why is he not worried for his own, in wearing a skirt? And I like the way that he was able to kind of pull that apart and dissect that a little bit so yeah that's my spotlight. 

T: Great! 

H: But I think generally, and I’ll be very honest in saying this, it was quite hard to pick a spotlight because I think there aren't many visible White men, White cis men in this space. 

T: And that's what we want, that's what that is. The crux of this episode is that we'd love to see more White cisgender men in D&I spaces because it's important that everybody's pushing the boulder up the hill together. 

H: Yes, it's heavy. 

T: It’s very heavy. And when we get to a place where more people are included it benefits us all. It really does. And also to go with your, with the metaphor here, not everyone needs to be pushing that border uphill. Some people are pulling it from the top. 

T: Oh, love it! 

H: Right! 

T: Oh, beautiful. 

H: But also, that's a really good thing to do. If you're in a room surrounded by other cisgender White men who have just kind of breezed to the top, which isn't always the case but I think can be, being the one person in the room going “Do we maybe want to check that?” It is very helpful and you're also in an incredibly safe space to do that. No one's gonna say "You're just too close to this situation” which I've heard many a time. No one's gonna say "You're just speaking out of anger.” You're saying that because you think it's the right thing to do and it is the right thing to do and I think we need more of that. 

T: Leverage that privilege. 

H: Yeah. 

(MUSIC) 

T: So we've got a couple of questions come in. The first one is "What changes do you think we'd see if more men were involved in D&I?” 

H: It feels like a really obvious one, but I think we’d see a bigger D&I space, which I think we need, because at the moment it's very isolating. 

T: It can be, yeah, absolutely. 

H: And it can also feel like D&I versus bureaucracy a lot of the time. And I think once those reasons not to do things are being challenged by more people, it'll become, well, why not do the thing? And I think that is a change that we would see if there were more cis White men involved in D&I, is you'd find better ways around those blocks, or more voices pushing them down.  

T: I think we'd see it happen quicker as well. 

H: Yeah, that too, yeah. 

T: Which is a great thing because I think we can both agree that things don't happen quickly in a D&I space to be honest. When you're trying to pull things out, stem and root, it takes a while to change attitudes, it takes a while to make that culture shift and like you say with more people in the space, including men, you might see that change happen a bit quicker and you might see a shift in attitude from the people who have never been in a D&I space as well and they might look into that and be like, okay, there's more people that seem to care about this now so maybe I should care about this too. 

H: There's an element of... we've spoken a lot about having role models and I think that applies this in this setting as well. 

T: Yeah, it does. 

H: Like if you can see, as a cisgender straight White man, someone else enabling that empathy and kind of going "Yeah, I'm gonna speak up for that particular group," that provides a good role model right? Like it helps other people go "Oh well if they can do it I'm gonna do it too.” Because I do think that idea of lots of men care but they've been conditioned not to I don't think it's an excuse I think that's incredibly childish, but I do think it plays a part. And I think the more that you can have people who look like you stepping forward and doing what's right, that's gonna make it easier naturally to go with them on that. So yeah, I think that's helpful. 

T: Yeah, for sure. Great, thank you. And the second question is, "How do companies ensure that white men are encouraged to get involved with D&I conversations?” 

H: I think this is a really tricky question because I don't think, morally I don’t think they should need to ensure that White men get involved in D&I conversations, but I acknowledge that that's very idealistic and I do think they should just get over themselves and join in. But I kind of think, and I think this probably sounds a bit counter-intuitive in some ways, I don't think they should do anything differently? 

T: Okay. 

H: I think just by continuing to- I mean, which sounds wrong because clearly it's not working. But by things like sharing stories which we've already talked about or sharing experiences, I want to see more of that with White men and I want to hear more in terms of their allyship actually, like what Daniel Fiandaca is doing is kind of saying, yeah it was hard but you know what, it needs to be. So yeah, I think I'm kind of a bit caught between this one because I don't think they should do anything targeted? I think that's my thing is like the moment where you're kind of saying “White men can get involved in this way,” I think that can be a bit counterintuitive. 

T: Yeah, I see where you're coming from. What about using existing awareness campaigns that focus on men to invite that conversation and storytelling? So things like Movember, for example, might be a really good way for organisations to invite men to join in those conversations about what might be affecting them. 

H: Yeah. 

 T: And maybe trigger some of that empathy and just maybe give them a safe space to talk might help with the further D&I involvement. 

H: And I think as well like International Men's Day. You often hear about it with International Women's Day of like, why do we need this, blah blah blah blah. With International Men's Day, it's really tricky, I think, because I come at it from a place of hurt and anger. In that actually every day is kind of, like nothing's been put in place systemically to stop you getting wherever you need to be. 

T: Correct. 

H: And I think that's why I'm a bit reluctant to say, let's do something specifically for this group. I think things like Movember are helpful because actually we're doing those anyway. And I think giving a bit more voice to them is helpful. But I think, I've got it. I think my problem is that these things need to be looked at intersectionally. 

T: Yes, they do. Always. 

H: And I think that's where my issue with this comes in, is because I am a White man. International Men's Day, Movember, very rarely, not always, but very, very rarely consider that there are White men who don't fit into the category of cisgender, straight White men. Like, and I think that's where I'm drawing problem a little bit, because things like Black History Month, things like Pride, things like disability awareness days naturally cater for a 

T: A variety of- 

H: Disabled Black trans person whereas International Men's Day doesn't. 

T: It doesn't feel like they're striking the right level of intersectionality. 

H: That's it and I think I've pinpointed where my discomfort lands actually. 

T: So maybe that's the stem of the conversation then isn't it? It’s like we need more White men involved in the conversation so we can start to look at things from an intersectional lens. 

H: Yes, yeah, and again which... it feels a bit counterintuitive because the moment you start doing that people say well it's not International Men's Day anymore we're talking about trans people, we're talking about black Black men. And then the conversation gets muddy because then we're not talking about the White man anymore. So, I do think it's a really tricky balance to pick and if I'm totally honest and totally blunt, there needs to be an element of... this just isn't a space where you need to feel like you're the centre of it. You need to be involved peripherally because that's where we need you. 

T: Sure. 

H: But yeah, contrasting thoughts on that one.  

T: This is interesting for me. We obviously work in the D&I space. Inclusion, it's for everybody, isn't it? You want everyone to feel included. So naturally, if there are pockets of people, and in this instance, if it's White men, saying that they feel a sense of exclusion, then I think it's important for companies to ascertain what that is. 

H: Yes. 

T: Because I think it's really important to lead with the fact and the data. And if you've got a cohort of men that are saying, “We don’t feel like we’re being listened to,” dig into that a little bit, find out why that is, if there's any truth in it or if it just feels like sharing the pie feels like you're getting less of the pie. 

H: Yeah, I feel like a lot of the time it's an internal problem, as opposed to a systemic exclusion. 

T: And I think there's an opportunity here to try and help this particular demographic understand that whilst we start to progress some of the equity in workplaces, it doesn't mean that you're getting less. And if that's what it feels like, that's fine, I understand that's a feeling that they have. But companies have to be responsible then in reacting to that and being like, okay, well this is equity, this is what equity looks like. We're not just talking about equal access and opportunity for everyone, we're talking about actually bringing people up to a space where they’re not fighting against the tide where we're removing some of those barriers in place. So that's why it might feel like X, Y and Z. So yeah, so there's some conversations to be had with White men in the workplace who feel they've been forgotten about and trying to really drill down into what that means and where that's coming from. But also if they do have actual valid concerns about maybe not talking about men's health or maybe not talking about paternity leave or family rights. 

H: Absolutely yeah. 

T: Tackle that, you know, make sure that that is high on your agenda as well is what I would say to that. 

H: Yeah and I was thinking actually while you were saying that is in terms of like how do companies ensure that White men are engaged in this, maybe some specific things kind of aimed at like why do you feel bad about this? Like, going for the transparency aspect, I guess, of like, actually this can be uncomfortable, let's sit and pick that apart a bit. 

T: Yeah, for sure. 

H: So I wonder if maybe something like that would be interesting, and I wonder as well if people would engage with that, or if it would be seen as another D&I initiative that they're not getting involved in. Because yeah, I think the statistics we were given in the first article with the 70% of men feeling forgotten, I think yeah it's a fine line between I personally feel like I'm not involved in this conversation as opposed to systemically paternity leave is rubbish. Those are kind of different issues and I think we need to work out which one it is. 

T: Where the actual issue is. 

H: Yeah. 

T: Yeah, for sure. 

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H: Thank you for joining us for this episode of D&I Digest. It's been very interesting and I think I've been very biased. I need to do some self-reflection. 

T: Shared some views, shared some views. 

H: So yeah, remember that you can tell us what you think personally with our QR code, ask us some questions. Please get involved in this conversation. I think this is one where we really need some actually, diversity in our conversation. 

T: That's so true, we do. 

H: Because we are not cis straight White men.  

T: That's right. 

H: So yeah, ask us questions, contribute to the conversation, remember that you can follow us on our website and on social media and we hope that you'll come back and listen in next month. So it is bye from me. 

T: And bye from me. 

Both: Bye!