Can We Diversify Christmas?

Join Teagan and Henry for the the final episode of Season 1! We're talking about how we can make the festive season as inclusive as possible, and why some people don't like that.

You can read the articles here:
M&S Christmas ad sparks 'go woke, go broke' cries from trolls
Target Sparks Conservative Outrage Over 'Woke' Christmas Ornaments

Our D&I Spotlight this month is Alexei Sayle, and you can find him everywhere - YouTube is where I first came across him.

If you have a question for us, then you can submit it through this form.

Music used is:
Who Do You Think I Think You Are? by Mini Vandals

Transcript

T: Hello and welcome to December's episode of D&I Digest. 

H: I'm Henry, I use he, they pronouns. 

T: And I'm Teagan and I use she, her pronouns. We make up the Diversity and Inclusion team at Anchor, which is an organisation that specialises in housing care for over 55s. And given that we are smack bang in the middle of the festive period, we're going to talk a bit about that today. 

H: Woohoo! Sounded very sarcastic. 

T: Well, I mean, my first question is gonna be, are you a Christmas person?  

H: I am not a Christmas person. 

T: Boo! 

H: And you knew this! My heart lies in Halloween. 

T: That’s very true, very true. 

H: I don't mind Christmas. It's just a lot, you know, and there's so much expectation around it so I think it's more that that I've got problem with than Christmas. 

T: Fair enough. 

H: Yeah. 

T: Do you have anything that you do at Christmas?  

H: Lots of chocolate cake? 

T: That's my favourite part. 
  
H: Yeah, not really. Most of the time it's been quite nice because it's just been an excuse to sit quietly for a while. Surprisingly as well, I end up saving quite a lot of money over Christmas. 

T: A bonus. 

H: Because I've got a small family, so not much on presents. 

T: Good. 

H: Yeah, nothing really regular though. I don't really have any hard and fast traditions that I'm ride or die with.  

T: Sure. 
  
H: Like  If it's easy to get to parents, I'll go and visit them. If it's easy to visit friends, I'll visit them. Yeah, no real attachment to any tradition.  

T: Do you do the whole Christmas lunch endeavor? 

H: I do, but again, it's just a fancy roast, isn't it? 

T: Oh yeah, it is a glorified roast dinner, absolutely? 

H:  Yeah, so like, I'll have a roast. 

T: I certainly don't have any traditions around Christmas. I think when we were growing up, it was very much either spending it at our grandparents' house with all the extended family, and then once everyone started getting a bit older, we all kind of retreated into our own homes to do Christmas dinner especially. 

H: Yeah. 

T: I think that now my Christmases are usually split between either me visiting my family with my husband, or we go up to my husband's family, so actually what tends to happen is we become a bit like show ponies for a full week because actually- 

H: On the road again! 

T: Yeah, we don't get to see a lot of them all the time because they don't live anywhere near us so for us it's less about having what you'd label as traditional Christmas and more oh it's Christmas so now we need to go and see everybody! 

H: Yeah, an excuse to see people. 

T: That’s it, you know that's the expectation around it. 

H: Yeah. 

T: Must admit, I do love a Christmas dinner. That is one of my highlights of the year. And it is the one thing that I usually miss after I've done a long period of travelling. I'm usually like, okay, now it's time for the roast. And if it's got pigs and blankets on, then it's a Christmas dinner. I'm not taking any questions at this time on that. But yeah, I like the idea of the spirit of Christmas more than actually Christmas itself. For me, it doesn't have any heavy religious connotations in the way that I do Christmas. It did once upon a time, I grew up in the church. I think I've mentioned that before on this podcast. So it used to, but it doesn't anymore. 

H: Yeah. I had a really big conversation with my friend about this, like last year I think it was, and I was saying like for me it's not a particularly religious thing, and then we got in a whole debate about cultural Christianity, it was great fun. This is how my Christmas is spent. 

T: Debating around the table. Love it. 

H: Truly. But yeah, no, I think it's very much just like the fun of like seeing people and yeah, like you said, like the spirit of it I like. Even though I don't go particularly hard with it. 

T: No, exactly. Yeah. Great. 
  
H: So our first article today is from Pink News, and it was actually from last year because they were all ready to go, and this year they're still all coming out for Christmas. So yeah, we've hoarded this for a year. And the article was basically talking about M&S' Festive ad for last year, and it used the slogan, "Love This-mas (Not That-mas)" Very cute. And it basically focused on striking the balance between doing what we actually enjoy at Christmas as opposed to what we feel obliged to do. Personally I love that, like I thought it was a great advert. There was confetti, there was fire, what more could you want?  

T: There was Hannah Waddingham, that was the most important part of this entire advert. 

H: Especially now I know who she is. 
  
T: Yeah, confession from Henry. I said, oh, it's the advert with Hannah Waddingham. He's like, who? Who that?  

H: Yeah. I am notoriously unaware of celebrities.  

T: And I watch far too much TV. I also loved the advert. I thought it was entertaining. I thought it was kitschy. I enjoyed it in its entirety. And I agree with the message in that- we touched on this earlier didn't we?- There's a certain amount of obligation that comes around Christmas and sometimes it can feel a bit overwhelming and sometimes the to-do list just grows so extensively and then actually sometimes you just need to take a step back and like I don't actually want to do any of this so I'm not going to. And I like that message 

H: And especially if you're like us where the religious element isn't really there, you're there for the spirit of Christmas and then at which point all of the obligation ruins it because everyone gets so stressed about, I don't know, who came to visit, who was five minutes late and oh we've procrastinated the Christmas roast and it just, you lose the point of it a bit, not to sound all Christmas isn't Christmas anymore but you've kind of completely lost the whole thing because everyone's too stressed to work out what it is they actually enjoy, they're too busy upholding things that they've done for the last 10 years, where actually nobody enjoys them anymore- it was made for kids and no one's moved on from that. It's just, it's a lot. 

T: And I think that social media's got a lot to answer for when it comes to feeling obligated to do things around Christmas. 

H: Yeah.  

T: You know, people putting up their trees and spending time wheeling carts out of the garage full of Christmas baubles that we've collected over the past six years and, ooh, come and set my table up with me and, you know, all of it's just a bit over the top. And then if you're constantly flooded with that type of content, you start to compare yourself to people who are just, well, frankly, chronically online, like that is their life, that is their job. 

H: Paid to do unboxing videos, it's like my Christmas lights are sad. 

T: Exactly, if you're the person that's getting paid to put this stuff out on the internet, you're going to have a very different reality than the person that's probably watching it. 

H: Yeah, totally. 

T: And to be quite honest, I cannot think of anything worse than wheeling Christmas decorations out of my garage to try and count them all and what I've collected over the years. Don't care, not for me.  

H: Horrific. So the article itself kind of outlines basically the responses to this advert, and people have said that it's trying to cancel Christmas. Some people have expressed discontent that it was only adults featured in the advert rather than children, and that M&S include a gay couple and a Black family in the video.  

T: Oh no, not the gay couple and the black family!  

H: Shock horror! So yeah, there were more comments and quotations, but they all said broadly the same thing, and that was go woke or go broke. But I feel like, being a year on, M&S hasn't gone bankrupt, they're still going. Clearly, they just went woke. 

T: I think it's funny though to use the phrase, “Oh yeah, go woke or go broke,” like that's some sort of negative thing. I can imagine people saying it without any sense of irony whatsoever, because it's like, well yeah, you're right, because if you don't start caring about this, you are literally alienating loads of communities who you're not involving in the idea of the festive period. So yeah, you stop reaching thousands upon thousands of people who you're trying to market your products to, and people are sat there like, oh no- 

H: And all their friends. 

T: Yeah, you know, go woke or go broke, yeah. Yeah, yes. You've nailed it. Yeah. You're so close to getting the point, you've actually nailed it.  

H: Yeah. And it's wild to me, like, obviously this is looking at particularly a Christmas advert, but you hear this throughout the year, that kind of phrasing of like a shop’s gone woke, we'll have to boycott them and it's like four people going like “Black Santa!” like yeah, it's just a bit sad. 

T: It’s odd, isn’t it? It's very strange. The complaints around including a gay couple and a Black family in the video I must admit particularly tickled me like when I read this in the first instance because I was like, "re there actually people that think that Black people and gay people don't celebrate Christmas and don't get involved in this kind of festive period because that to me just seems utterly ridiculous, does it not? 

H: Yeah. 

T: And given that we are a nation of so many diverse communities, I struggle to understand why there is a cohort of people who think that Christmas is for White, cisgender, straight people. And that's it. 

H: It was weird as well because I think when I first watched that advert, it didn't even register? 

T: No. 

H: It was just like people destroying Christmas cards. Love that for them. 

T: Yeah. 

H: And like It didn't even clock to me other than the fact that I know who Tan France is, I wouldn't have known he was gay probably? 

T: No. I agree with that. 

H: Like you’ve not been provided with his whole life story, it's just two people being friendly? 

T: It's a good point, because I think it's not like the two men on screen share a kiss or anything, to insinuate that they are a couple.  

H: I think he puts his hand on the back of his chair. 

T: On his shoulder,  

H: Or on his shoulder. 

T: Yeah, like, when they're looking at the board game together.  

H: Yeah.  

T: Okay, all right, well, if you've deduced from that that they're a gay couple, then fine, I'm not here to suggest otherwise. 

H: Sounds like you're thinking quite a lot about gay couples. It's like knee-jerk reactions isn't it, and it's obviously not particularly thought through and yeah it's just a bit sad.  

T: Odd. Yeah I agree and I think that the comment about them not including children- I mean it's interesting again it wasn't something that had clocked straight away but I do tend to agree that Christmas is great for children to get involved in it's really nice when you've got young kids in the family to experience the joy and magic of Christmas when you're that age. So I understand that. Do I think it was done on purpose to try and antagonise people around Christmas? I don't think so. 

H: And also I guess it does kind of defeat the point of the advert because kids aren't the ones being like obligated. 

T: Forced to do something. 

H: You tend to do Christmas, like you say, for the kids. 

T: Yes you do yeah. Totally. 

H: Especially all of the the fun presenty stuff. 

T: Children aren't the magic makers of Christmas. That's all the adults in their life that do that for them. 

H: Yeah, most of the time you do it because you want to, you want to see them smile and all of that cheesy stuff. To have like the full advert being like this is about avoiding obligations of doing stuff that you don't want to do that's not gonna hurt anybody else, it's just gonna ruin your time. That is directed at adults, and it's about pushing back that side of it. It's not really about, we're breaking Christmas.  

T: No. I just also had the funniest little thought in my head. It's like, do you know like the Haribo adverts where it's all the adults talking in baby voices? I kind of had the role reversal of that, because M&S are obviously trying to draw in adults to spend money at M&S at Christmas. They don't care if- Just like a load of little toddlers walking around with a trolley through a M&S food hall, “Ooh yeah, mum’ll love that!” Throwing a prawn cocktail in there, like they're not the ones that are gonna be- 

H: I'll be so honest, the spirit of Christmas got to me so much that I forgot that this was an advertising pitch? Oh I got drawn into that. 

T: Exactly. So you're just taking a step back aren't you from this and realise how utterly ridiculous people are being in their life. 

H: Oh that's even better. 

T: Oh you know, you've ruined Christmas, there's Black people and gays all over the TV, you've ruined it. Like when you actually just step out from that, like well yeah also kids are not buying stuff from M&S. And that's kind of the point of the advert. 

H: I can't believe I just was blissfully unaware of a world with advertising in it.  

T: Right. It's done so subtly.  

H: So subtly. 

T: It’s not even recognised.  

H: The wonder of Christmas is truly the fact that I forget that I've got to buy stuff. 

T: That's so true. 

H: Interesting one though, because have you ever seen any adverts around like a non-Christian holiday? Because I wonder if they get the same backlash or if it's just because of it’s- 

T: No, I don't think I have. I might be making it up, but I'm pretty sure Morrison's maybe did an advert not too long back about Diwali. 

H: Oh, yeah. 

T: Maybe. 

H: That does ring a bell. 

T: Yeah, or I could have completely crafted that in my own mind and my own imagination. Who knows? But I think the point still stands that there isn't a lot of adverts in the UK that centre around other religious festivals that aren't Christian. 

H: Yeah, because I've noticed that recently, and I think probably the last few years, adverts are saying this festive season as opposed to this Christmas, which, you know, baby steps in the right direction even if you're still talking about Christmas but under a different name. But yeah, I was kind of thinking as I was watching this, like, I wonder if any other, like, religions get this same sort of comment of, like, "You're ruining Hanukkah!” 

T: Yeah, probably not. But then I do think as well it goes back to a conversation around cultural versus religious ideas of Christmas. You don't have the same flavour that we do have over the festive period when it comes to Easter advertising. 

H: True, yeah. 

T: You don't sit there and you're not bombarded by special Easter adverts. You'll get your sort of standard supermarket offer, you know, come and get your lamb, come and spend seven quid on an Easter egg, like, fine. But definitely not the same sort of production and marketing value of what you get. 

H: Christmas is a much more commercial time, isn't it?  

T: Absolutely, yeah. 

H: I suppose with Christmas it's much more about the spending time with family, the food, the presents, as opposed to like the religious side of it? 

T: Yeah. 

H: Which again, you probably don't have so much with other religious holidays because they are primarily religious. 

T: Mm-hmm. So I think that's the difference. I think that's what separates the two. I think it is the idea of a capitalist, consumerism angle of Christmas, and that's why you just see so many of these adverts, but then also get the hilarious comments that we see around people getting upset about Christmas adverts.  

H: Yeah, because you did used to get the idea that Christmas shouldn't be about presents and everything. That kind of came through quite strongly in terms of like media and news articles and stuff. So I wonder if this is just the next step of like, well, it's inevitable that it's gone capitalist. What else can we complain about? 

T: Yeah, true. And that is very much something that my grandma and grandad are still of the opinion on. My grandma still is a large character in her church, she still goes every Sunday, Christmas is a big time for her to spend a bit more time in her faith and focus on that and she absolutely has said for as long as I've been on the planet, you know, "Don't give me gifts, it's not about gifts, I'm not interested, I don't want any part in that, we'll come round, we'll have Christmas lunch, we'll speak to each other, it'll be lovely.”  But it absolutely is not about gift-giving, in my grandma and granddad's house, it never has been. But all the kids would still engage in that though, all of their children and then us as grandchildren. We've had a very different way of doing it for many, many years. So yeah, I think that it's a valid point around what's the takeaway from previous years when people have been more about, okay, this isn't about gift-giving. Is this a natural evolution to that conversation? Potentially.  

H: The article also points towards more positive responses to doing Christmas comfortably and free of obligation, and lots of people have like, lauded it for that and saying like actually yeah this is something that we've kind of got our heads stuck in. It's hard to break away from that kind of societal expectation around it and the assumption that you're going to partake in Christmas as well, which I think is one that links into that broader festive season aspect. If you're not celebrating Christmas, the assumption is well then you can't be a Christian or like, well are you doing something else? Are you like celebrating Hanukkah or are you Hindu or whatever it is? It's never a, "No I just don't really want to.” Like it doesn't really clock to people as an option. But reassuring to know that the outrage has sparked again this year with the Boots advert, which is- 

T: Shock. 

H: Yeah, I do enjoy some consistency through this. 

T: Me too. You know, it's nice to know what you're getting. And you can just mentally prepare yourself every year for the swarm of people that want to tell you that Black people don't belong on Christmas adverts. Talking carrots? Absolutely fine. 

H: Oh yeah. 

T: Black people? No no no no. 

H: Well let's not get carrot away with fantasy here. The talking carrot is a staunch member of my Christmas family.  

T: Honestly. Yes I have seen the uproar around the Boots advert this year. What can I say apart from, yeah, standard procedure at this point isn't it? 

H: Business as usual. 

T: Yeah. Absolutely. Just, I think people really need to embody this idea of if you don't want to consume that content you don't have to. 

H: Take the M&S advert to heart. If you don't want that obligation of looking at Christmas adverts that are becoming inclusive and friendly and lovely things to look at, simply don't. 

T: Don’t watch it! You are not obligated to watch this advert. 

H: No. Pick This-mas, not That-mas. Thanks M&S.  

T: Brilliant. 
 

MUSIC – 18.37  

 
H: Article 2 is from Newsweek, and again it's from last year, although I think it's pretty consistent this year. So there was a range of Christmas decorations available last year in Target, and the name of this article is “Target sparks conservative outrage over woke Christmas ornaments.” 

T: Brilliant. 

H: Truly horrific times we are living in. This episode is just dripping with sarcasm! So yeah, there were a range of Christmas decorations in Target last year, including Santas of various ethnicities in wheelchairs, really ticking all the boxes there. A toy soldier, well, a nutcracker, carrying the LGBTQ+ Pride flag and wearing a rainbow hat. Frankly, they looked spectacular.  

T: Love it. 

H: And yeah, it was super tacky. None of these decorations were nice. I loved them all.  

T: Christmas should be tacky. 

H: Truly. 

T: Let's bring back tacky Christmas. 

H: Absolutely. 

T: Please. 

H: Chuck glitter at everything, with aggression. 

T: I want tinsel. I want paper ring things. 

H: Paper chains? 

T: Paper chains, thank you. Weird acrylic beads that have absolutely no purpose whatsoever. Love it. Love tacky Christmas. 

H: Yeah. I think we started going downhill society when we started colour coding Christmas. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You need everything. 

T: Beige Christmas makes me sad. 

H: Beige anything makes me sad. 

T: Beige Christmas makes me very sad. And cool Christmas. Blue lights and silver. No! Warm Christmas please! Tacky Christmas please!  

H: Yes. So this outrage all comes basically after the company suffered losses when shoppers boycotted Target for stocking Pride Month merchandise and trans-friendly swimwear earlier in 2023. 

T: Okay. 

H: So after June 2023 Target was forced to close some stores after there were things like bomb threats called in, staff were assaulted over the Pride month range, and the company announced that it would review some products and remove others entirely from its shelves, so it was a real backpedaling from Target. They also temporarily closed some stores because the threats were impacting the team members' sense of safety and well-being. But yeah, generally the response to this backlash was not handled well. 

T: No. 

H: Obviously, prioritize your staff's safety if there are bomb threats, please close the store. Please close the store! 

T: Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

H: But yeah, they took things off the shelves and kind of frantically backpedaled. And so yeah, they kind of just doubled down a bit at Christmas. 

T: Well, I mean, I love that. 

H: Love that. 

T: Yeah, I like them trying to really reinforce the fact that they are trying to be better within this space when it comes to inclusivity around marked occasions and holidays. I mean, I just think it's just absolutely vile how we live in a world where you're getting a bomb threat over Pride merchandise being in a shop. I just think that's really sad and I think it's just awful. And the issue is if companies are then taking those products off the shelf, the far right are winning in that argument. So you're right, I think the fact that they did then double down at Christmas and you had multiple ethnicity Santas, fantastic. Disability representation, love that. LGBTQ plus representation, great! Again, if that's not your vibe, you don't have to buy it! 

H: Yeah, yeah. You just simply do not have to engage. 

T: Absolutely. 

H: That's fine. 

T: When I go and do my food shopping and I walk down the shampoo aisle, I don't get cross that there's men's shampoo on the shelf because it's not what I want.  

H: And why not, Teagan? 

T: Do you know what I mean? Sat there kicking Lynx off the shelf. Like it's just nonsensical isn't it? It's absolute nonsense. 

H: Yeah. And it's so wild because the phrase like go work or go break is like a rallying call for people at this kind of time of year. Yeah. But the thing is it's never the companies that are gonna suffer ultimately from this. Like the people who it affects are the communities that see themselves be the object of hate. Yeah. Like, that's always gonna be the case.  

T: It's because you know that it elicits more of a reaction. That's why. It's because it makes the news, doesn't it?  

H: True, yeah. 

T: Because if everyone's putting in bomb threats to Target and not shopping there anymore and chanting outside, that's going to get media coverage, whereas them being their vile selves to the community, as they probably are anyway, but you know. 

H: They’d just get arrested, right? 

T: Yeah, exactly. You know, if they make a planned attack on a trans person that doesn't make the news. We know this. 

H: Or it does from very different perspective. 

T: Yeah exactly, yeah it doesn't it doesn't have anywhere near the impact to support those communities as what journalism thinks it's doing half the time yeah so that's why it's because they get a better media spin from doing it with companies rather than people. 

H: And also, I mean, from the opposite perspective as well, the the companies are only ever concerned – and admittedly, this is an incredibly cynical view, and I would like to think that it's not always the case – but  the companies aren't gonna care hugely about the community that it’s impacted. 

T: No. 

H: Yeah, they're probably gonna mourn the loss of like a few quid on tacky Christmas decorations, but they're not gonna go out of the way and be like, oh actually we've collaterally damaged a whole chunk of people and we're the reason for it because we didn't plan for this, we didn't think it through, we reacted badly to backlash, whatever it might be, so yeah ultimately it's just the same groups of people who are getting whacked by this. 

T: I need to know where I can get myself a little Brown Santa. 

H: I had a bit of a look actually on Target's website this year and I was so sad to see the bit, I couldn't actually find anything too rainbow-y. I mean there was rainbow stuff because it's Target's tacky Christmas selection. But it wasn't like queer coded, it was just a rainbow. 

T: Yeah, it had clouds on it and we don't want the ones with clouds on them. 

H: No. There was an impeccable pink disco nutcracker. 

T: Excellent. 

H: Which I loved. 

T: Yeah. 

H: And there were lots of like Santas of various ethnicities so you could get yourself one of those.  

T: Good! 

H: Postage and packaging is probably... 

T: More than the ornament. 

H: Yeah, undoubtedly. But yeah there was a little dinosaur and I think they were all like nutcrackers and yeah, little Dracula nutcracker. 

T: Amazing. 

H: So for all those people saying that Black Santa isn't real, I've got some news for you about Dracula. 

T: Yeah, exactly. I do remember really vividly, the Kevin the Carrot advert with Aldi. And just the whole discourse around that as compared to Sainsbury’s advert. It was a Black family having Christmas dinner, it was just- 

H: Yeah, just living their lives, 

T: Just living their lives, just existing. And then there was also the Kevin the Carrot advert that came out the same year and everyone was just losing their minds over this idea of a Black family and a Black family only being on a UK advert. 

H: Yep. 

T: But everyone was completely fine with the representation of the animated talking orange carrot.  

H: Yeah. 

T: Yeah. Which really just puts into perspective the absolute nonsensical approach to some of these conversations that you can have with people, to be honest. 

H: Absolutely. And also the dystopian value of like, actually this is just really silly. Like, this is what we're arguing about, really? I think we've got bigger problems actually than Kevin. 

T: Yeah, totally.  

H: I mean, problematic guy, sure, but it's just too much, Kevin, too much. 

MUSIC -  
  
H: Our spotlight this month is Alexei Sayle, who is a British Jewish comedian, actor, writer and activist. He's really good at everything. 

T: Great. 

H: He's really known for his cynical comedy with political commentary, kind of. I was gonna say underlining it, it's fairly obvious. But yeah, he's also spoken about his reluctance to align to political parties and instead just kind of saying these are my morals, political parties can align to me.  

T: Yeah. 

H: He's actually really funny I don't usually go in for comedians very much- 

T: I was gonna say, you’re not really a big sort of stand up fan or anything like that- 

H: I’m not a funny person. The height of severity, me. 

T: A very serious character. I'll give him a watch because I do like a good comedy and I particularly like satire and dry humour. 

H: Yeah, I think that's kind of why I like him is because he's very dry and very blunt in his delivery. 

T: Love that. 

H: And I thought it was great. 

T: Good! 

H: He's our spotlight this festive period. 

T: Brilliant. And the last one of the year. 

MUSIC - 

T: So our question today is, how can we make our festive period more inclusive? Um, this is in two parts really because it says at work and at home. So I suppose let's do at work first. How do we make the festive period more inclusive at work? 

H: We've mentioned a lot about language, like ‘festive period’ rather than assuming that everyone does Christmas. 

T: Yes. 

H: And I feel like I'm really lauding M&S in their sentiment here, but removing that kind of expectation that people do things, like, I don't know, I feel like everywhere is a bit above mandatory Christmas songs at this point. But again, it's probably not going to be mandatory, but is there still expectation around it? Will people feel a bit left out if they don't want to join in? And I think there is a lot of that still going around, or like, with going out for a Christmas dinner, will people get called Scrooge and have humbugs thrown at them if they say no? 

T: Sure. 

H: So I think just being aware of that and yes, you can say that it's inclusive and diverse and not Christmas on paper, but how much of that actually comes across. Sure, yeah. 
  
T: And I like that- you've touched on this before, especially when we've been talking about anything festive that we do at work, is particularly around taking into consideration how people want to get involved in Christmas activities. So for example, if you're having a Christmas party after work, who's going to be able to attend that? Are people available to attend that who have got care and responsibilities, parental responsibilities? Is it safe for someone who's from a marginalised community to get themselves home? Have we taken consideration of neurodivergent conditions? Are we going somewhere that's really loud? Is it crowded? Is there going to be something that meets everyone's dietary requirements? It's all of these questions that often don't get asked in a situation where it's like, “Oh great! Christmas beers everyone!” it's like, ooh, who's that for? Have we considered what the context here, have we had a look at this in the round and how it might engage everybody that you want to. So I think from my point of view, to add on to your point about language, it's to ask yourself the question that you should be asking yourself when you're pulling together any event at work. 

H: Yes! Yeah. 

T: Just because it's happening in December, doesn't mean we just throw out everything that we've been working so hard at all year when it comes to event planning. We have to make sure that we do the due diligence to include everybody and make sure that they are catered for in the right way as well. 

H: Yeah and I think as well, like to caveat that, especially when you give people a list of questions to consider, it's not about worrying about answering all of those all of the time. It's just being aware of them. Like, you're more than likely not going to be able to find a venue that is wheelchair accessible, accessible to someone with autism, sufficient dietary requirements on the menu, also has a sober option. Those places probably don't exist. 

T: Ooh, but I’ll tell you what could exist there.  

H: Yes? 

T: You could do it in your office, which should cater to all those situations. 

H: This is true, this is true.  

T: And have a fuddle, which is a new word that you've learnt this week, isn't it? 

H: I've learnt things. I love a word. 

T: I think it must be a Northern thing. Food huddle. For those that have got no idea what we're talking about. So it‘s a bit like potluck, you bring in a dish and usually that means that you can cater to a variety of different people and different tastes and whatever else. 

H: Yeah, I love that. 

T: Yeah. 

H: It's a great idea. But yeah, cause like, I think often people get very hung up on the idea that, “Oh God, I'm never gonna please everybody.” And it's like, no, you probably won't. But just so long as you're not selling it as a, "This is for everybody. Everyone's very welcome,” when they're not and we've said this in different contexts but it's that transparency that's important. If you've picked a venue and it's sufficient for a lot of people saying "It's going to be quite loud, there is an outdoor space if you need it.” That would cover for a lot of people, or at least they'd know and say “Actually the reason that I can't come is because it's going to be really loud, and not for me.” 

T: And I agree with that, because I will take my ear loops to places that- 

H: Yeah, you know to provide your own caveats. 

T: Exactly. So if someone says to me like, oh yeah, come along but it's quite loud there. I'm like, yep, that's fine because I'll make sure I'll bring my ear loops so I can do something about the sensory overload that I might experience in that situation. But if you're not told and you turn up and you're like, "Ahhh, this is too overwhelming, I can't do this!” You're not gonna be that jazzed about going to any get-together through work ever again, really, are you?  

H: No, and actually that logic applies almost across the board, I feel like there will be exceptions, but with things like, they don't provide a vegetarian option, or they don't provide a halal option, or whatever it might be, okay, I'll eat beforehand, and I'll come along for a coke or something, like, it's just about providing that information, it's not saying you need to freak out and worry trying to desperately- 

T: Make it work. 

H: Fit in this thing that it's never gonna work because unfortunately the world we live in- or fortunately, I guess because there are so many options nothing will ever fit to everybody. 

T: No. 

H: And that's okay you just gotta be aware where those limitations are and explain them and not trying to not try and trick people into coming along so that they come along. 

T: Transparency is key really isn't it? Okay great so what about making the festive period more inclusive at home then? Any ideas for that?  

H: I think this is a tricky one. I like M&S's advert I think that idea of being quite comfortable where your boundaries lie is a good one. You hear it every year about, I don't know, racist conversations at the dinner table- 

T: Yep. 

H: And “Oh we've brought up politics again!” and all of those things like I think just know where your comfort lies because again you're not going to be able to please everybody there's always going to be probably one member of your family that you're like "Oh we think differently!” 

T: Yeah. 

H: I think being comfortable in yourself probably goes a long way and you're probably making it inclusive for yourself if nobody else. 

T: I agree. I think it's the little things as well, like as I mentioned earlier, my grandma and grandad are Christian and if we do go over to their house for Christmas lunch or they come to ours, we'll still all sit silently while they do a prayer before we eat and stuff like that, just because it's not something that we openly engage in, it doesn't mean I'm going to take the opportunity for them to do that away from them. 

H: Yeah, not going to impose it on anybody else. 

T: Yeah, exactly. I'll just sit there silently and I'll let them say their prayers and then we can crack on and I can snaffle down on all the Christmas dinner. Love it! 

H: Yeah. 

T: I think it's little things like that, it's not forgetting about your other friends as well that you might have in your life that do belong to other religions, but culturally still mark Christmas. I have friends who are Muslim and they go in for Christmas, they love it. They're like, yeah, get the tree up, celebrate it, we'll mark it. Obviously not too tied to the religious connotations of it all because we are Muslim, but there's still that acknowledgement that Christmas is happening around them because a lot of the time you've got to think that we'll have the bank holidays as well. They're going to be off work. 

H: And it’s an excuse to visit family and friends and enjoy yourself, isn’t it? 

T: Exactly. So it's not making the assumption as well that just because you have people in your life who do belong to different religions that they're vehemently against the idea of doing Christmas because there is and will continue to be a bit of a separation between cultural Christmas and religious Christmas for some people. So yeah, I think it's just paying attention to how you can best suit the people around you that you are celebrating Christmas with, or the festive period with. 

H: Yeah, and I think as well that kind of, similar to what you were saying there about assumption around other people, it's just that, again, it’s this assumption of if someone's not doing something, that is also fine, like it's up to them. And I mean, I've had it a few times where I've not had a particularly Christmassy year where I've just been like, I am going to sit by myself and I'm going to have the best time because I really need that. And the number of times everyone has been like, "Oh, what are you doing this year for Christmas?” “Oh, nothing actually.” “Oh, I'm so sorry.” 

T: Oh dear! 

H: I'm like, oh, here we go. And it, honestly, that makes me feel so much worse than sitting and watching The Snowman on repeat on my own with no one to interrupt my full cake demolishing.  

T: Nice. 

H: Yeah, and I think just that kind of, again, the expectations around it. Be aware that your expectations are not the same as somebody else's.  

T: Absolutely. 

H: And yearly that might change. I noticed on social media somewhere that someone I know has kind of put out a post saying like I'm gonna be a bit absent this Christmas because of a bereavement. 

T: Okay. 

H: And again, it's not because they don't celebrate Christmas or because they hate the time of year or because they're a Halloween person, whatever it is. Like it's just this year has now become a tricky time for them. If you're approaching that conversation with, "Oh Christmas, isn't it great? What are you doing?” That can feel really alienating. So I think yeah, just that awareness of expectation isn't actually as universal as we all think it is.  

T: Yeah, yeah.  

H: And it's a hard thing to have to remind yourself because it's expectation. 

T: Yeah. 

H: But yeah, that kind of awareness, transparency, openness.  

MUSIC 

H: So thank you for joining us for this episode of D&I Digest, last one of 2024, and we'll see you next year for season two, as we're dramatically calling it. Not that that really changes much, but... 

T: Season two, it feels so Hollywood. 

H: I know. 

T: Enjoying it. 

H: So, yeah. Have a great festive period, whatever that might entail. Remember to follow us on our website and on social media, and we hope you'll come back and listen in next year! So yeah, it is bye from me. 

T: And bye from me. 

Both: Bye