Where's the LGBTQ+ representation in sport?

Help us unpack some of the reasons we don't see as much LGBTQ+ representation in sports, and what's being done to encourage more!

The articles we discuss are:
'Olympic boxer Imane Khelif takes legal action over male chromosomes claims'
'Premier League and clubs highlight commitment to LGBTQ+ inclusion'

 If you have a question for us, then you can submit it through this form.

Music used is:
Who Do You Think I Think You Are? by Mini Vandals 

Transcript

H: Welcome back to another episode of D&I Digest. I'm Henry, I use he/they pronouns.

T: And I'm Teagan, and I use she/her pronouns.

H:  We make up the Diversity and Inclusion Team at Anchor, which is an organisation that specialises in housing and care for over 55s.  So this month we are again returning to a topic that we've kind of brushed over before, but this time we're focusing on LGBTQ+ representation in sport. So we've come at this  from a perspective of just general representation before and ended up in this area. So this time we thought like, let's dedicate one for this. 

T: Yeah, we have. We had a conversation about LGBTQ representation  in health, didn't we?

H: Yeah.

T: And then there was a separate episode we did on representation in sport and we talked about swimming. So now we're just smashing the two together!

H: Yeah! Lpately trans people in sports being quite a central conversation to a lot of this, fueling various attitudes, we'll cover more on this in Article 1, but just to kind of lead us into the conversation I suppose, where do  you stand with sport? Do you watch it, play it, like it,hate it?

T: I don't play it  because I am lazy. 

H: Very fair!

T: And there isn't yet an Olympic sport for sitting on your bum watching TV and films.

H: I'm sure we can find one.

T: Just so when that happens then yes, you can call me an Olympian but until then no. I do like watching sport though. I will watch football. I am a Man United fan. I'm also a big England fan, so I get very excited when it's the Euros and the World Cup and I like watching the Olympics. I will also watch the tennis as well. I'm a big fan of Wimbledon so I do watch a lot of the sport  but play it, yeah not so much.

H: Okay I feel like you're gonna be leading a lot of this conversation then to be honest, because I am the opposite I play sport. I have no interest in watching someone else do it.

T: Fair enough.

H: I've got no interest in the politics of sport. I don't even watch the Olympics.Yeah, it very easily passes me by. So I enjoy getting involved in it and playing it. I feel like I'm quite sporty, much more of a jock than I admit to! But yeah, don't really engage in it in a way that isn't personal.

T: Fair enough, yeah, okay.

H: And where do you think sport kind of stands in terms of LGBT  representation? 

T: I  don't think it's great in a general sense, to be honest. I think it's definitely a space where we need to see more representation of queer people in sport. And I think that where we do see queer people in sport, there's almost like conversation around it that isn't necessarily kind a lot of the time and I find that a bit jarring and a bit weird. So I think we need more of it so that when somebody does come out or is  an openly queer person playing sport  they feel like there's less of a spotlight on them. 

H: Yeah, yeah that's true because like I said, I've not really engaged in much that isn't me playing something, so therefore there is always queer representation in the sport that I'm involved in. Be the change you wish to see in the world! But  every time I've heard about something on the news that's to do with sports, it's always been negative. It's very, very rarely been neutral or positive. So yeah, personally, I've never really noticed a lack of LGBT representation, but I'm also not looking for it.  In the teams, the kind of sports that I do, they are quite queer-friendly spaces.

T: Sure.

H: Particularly the teams that I go and choose to be involved in are obviously gonna be better than the ones that I don't choose to be involved in. So I will say though, like when I was growing up, it was a really common thing to be like, "Oh, you don't like sport, that's because you're gay." Like the stereotypes I've seen and felt a lot of it. actually for a lot of  my childhood, adolescence, I thought that I couldn't be involved in sport because I was queer.

T: That's interesting.

H: I didn't really know I was queer but I wasn't cis or straight so... But yeah, so I kind of played into that stereotype of "I'm not really very sporty" and I think that's probably why I'm still quite reluctant to be like, yeah I love hockey actually. So yeah, think there's an interesting, probably less in terms of representation, although I think that does play a part of it. It's just not the obvious route for me.

T: Sure, yeah.

H: And  yeah, why do you think for sport it is so important?  Because I think in films and TV we often say that obviously representation is really vital so that you can see yourself reflected. What about for sport? 

T: I think, well, I always think there's a massive spotlight on talking about queer people in sport because it's one of those characteristics that you can't necessarily see.

H: Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.

T: And I think that you have to be really forthcoming and transparent as a queer person about your queerness  in a way that you probably don't need to do if you are a Black person in sport or if you are  a woman in sport, you know. It feels very different and I think people need to be  outwardly told  that queerness is represented in sport and I think that because this is still a deeply personal  matter for a lot of people  and sharing every little bit of yourself  doesn't feel all that nice to a lot of people.  And I think that whilst we think there's  a lack of representation of  LGBTQ people in sport,  whether that is  factual,  I have no idea.  And I think that's the difference.

H: Yeah, is it going to be like the diagnosis thing of like, everyone's got ADHD nowadays and it's like, no, they're just comfortable to say that  they are.

T: So I don't know if that really  changes  this idea of  LGBT representation in sport, really. 

H: And I guess as well, especially with sexuality rather than gender or gender identity, it's not something that impacts a sport. Like you say, you wouldn't know unless someone said "I'm a lesbian playing this game" or "I'm asexual playing this game" it doesn't come up.

T: No, it doesn't.

H: I don't think there are any sports where you need to have  a romantic or sexual partner to play them?

T: No

H: I could be wrong! Gender identity I think that's a bit different so we'll come onto that later.

T: Yes, I'm sure.

H: So I guess that's probably why for me it feels a bit strange to have it as such a spotlight because sexuality specifically it doesn't really change anything other than the safety involved in putting yourself into that environment.

T: Yeah this is it. And this is why I have a big question mark over whether we're right in saying that there's a lack of LGBTQ representation in sports like well is it or is it the fact that we as a society are not privy to every bit of information about somebody ever recorded and actually you know some people might not want to share who they're romantically involved with and why that makes a bit of difference to them being able to swing a bat.

H: Yeah.

T: You know? I think that it's still important though that there are people who are willing  to say that they are queer people in sport because  as we've said time and time again when it comes to representation you can't be what you can't see and I think it's inspiring for young people to  have these  people to look up to in their lives and go okay well  I can actually go into  a sport that I really enjoy.

H: Yeah, bust the stereotype of...

T: And not be the stereotype of the person that  isn't allowed in that space because they're queer.

H: Yeah.

MUSIC

H: So our first article today comes from The Guardian from last year, and it's called "Olympic boxer Imane Khalif takes legal action over male chromosomes claims." So I'm sure lots of people will know about this in some regard. Imane Khalif won the Olympic gold for boxing,  but when the International Boxing Association said that she had been disqualified from last year's World Championships for failing gender eligibility criteria,  and reports were published claiming that she had XY chromosomes which are commonly male,  although not  always,  she found herself at the centre of a huge hostile debate. So, Khalif filed a legal complaint with French authorities over the online abuse and harassment that she faced during the games. The statement said that she had been competing in women's boxing for many years and at IBA sanctioned events. Furthermore, the IBA, the International Boxing Association, was actually stripped of recognition over governance failures. So, yeah, I'm sure they've got a lot of authority.

T: Okay.

H: So, the International Olympic Committee set and confirmed the entry criteria for the Olympic boxing tournament  and  that the same rules had applied during the qualification period. So essentially the stuff that the IBA were saying  wasn't actually verifiable,  believable in the first place. 

T: Oh my god. Wow.

H: So that's great.  After winning  gold, Khalif said, "I am fully qualified to take part in this competition. I am a woman. I was born a woman, I've lived as a woman, and I've competed as a woman. There's no doubt that there are enemies of success, and that gives my success a special taste because of these attacks." Good for her I think.

T: Yeah, I mean absolutely. The discourse online about this was horrendous. There's one thing that sticks out in my mind that I think people are missing and that I think this is more a conversation around ethnicity than it is around being transgender, personally, or being cisgender.

H: They're definitely not exclusive.

T: No, they're not. And I've said time and time again that the ideals of white supremacy are upheld by absolutely every branch of bigotry and not just around racism. So what I will say is that there was conversations once upon a time particularly around the way that the genetic makeup of Black women and I'm using that in heavy quotations because this is just eugenics. You know, it's the idea that Black women feel pain differently it's the idea that Black women have got thicker skin. It's the idea that Black women exhibit more pain-med seeking behaviour. It's vile. The rhetoric around it is vile. And I've touched on this before when we've talked about-

H: Bone density in swimming, weren't we?

T: Bone density in swimming and I've spoken about it when it comes to failings in maternity care. Particularly for Black and Asian women. Horrific. Some of  the conversation historically has been around whether Black people, Brown people should compete in sport with White people because of...  I'm laughing because I just find it so outrageous because of genetic advantages. Okay, what do we mean by that?  Where am I going with this? 

H: Do tell, enlighten me. 

T: So it's the idea that  if you are a Black man you're more likely to be genetically predisposed to be a better runner. Or someone who's built with muscle mass or all of these things that are just, you know, heavily centered on medical racism and eugenics. 

H: And also I wonder who would benefit from thinking that Black people can feel more pain and run faster and lift things more. Wonder where that came from.

T: Where would that have possibly come from?

H: Couldn't possibly guess.

T: No, right. So this conversation with Khalif around you know her having, was it XY chromosomes?

H: Yeah.

T: Is just yet again the same rinse and repeat conversation that we have around some women having higher testosterone levels or Black men having higher than White men's testosterone levels and therefore should they be competing against each other and all this absolute rubbish. And what I would say is whilst we're sat here talking about the distinctions of genetic advantages: Why do we not sit and pick that apart then when it's two White people competing in the same sport then? 

H: This is where my confusion arises as well because it's sport. The whole thing is created from genetic advantages.

T: Correct.

H: That's what sport is. And also no one was having these conversations of "Oh coming into this with a genetic advantage" when  we're bullying high school kids with asthma for not being able to run fast.

T: Exactly.

H: That's never a conversation. 

T: No.

H: Like people who don't have asthma are at a genetic advantage in running. Well yeah, that's why they run. That's why they choose to go into races.

T: Honestly, it's just completely rooted in bigotry in any way you shape  it. If you look at Adam Peaty, he's an Olympic swimmer, absolutely fantastic, really broad across the top and has won medals for his butterfly, probably because he's got really massive shoulders and he's got an advantage to do it a lot better than his counterparts that he's racing against. But are we all mouthing off saying that Adam Peaty should stop swimming because he's got a genetic advantage amongst his competitors?

H: I think that's really unfair because I can't do butterfly because I drown.

T: Usain Bolt is like 8 foot 3 like, are we saying that-?

H: Yeah, like sport is built on genetic advantages and training and predisposition.

T: This conversation is silly because all we're doing is we're saying that she's not the right kind of genetically built. She is an Olympic boxer and she has been doing this for years.

H: The bits that I did hear from it was like the person that she beat was like "Oh, I've never been hit that hard in my life," and it's like well, yeah, she's a better boxer than you are.

T: Is that not the aim?

H: Yeah, I think that's a good thing actually.

T: Have I misconstrued the rules of boxing?

H: Yeah, like it I just find it so strange because like, this is the point of sport. Competitive sport especially.

T: And the big driver behind this conversation is anti-trans rhetoric.

H: Yeah. 

T: And this is a conversation that we've had, I'm not sure if we've had it on the podcast but me and you have definitely had this conversation of-

H: Yeah, recorded or not, it's come up.

T: Yeah, time and time again about this idea that especially when women are anti-trans. I have a real issue with this, of anybody from a marginalised oppressed group oppressing other people has never made any sense to me at all. But it's these conversations where we start saying, oh you know, well she had XY chromosomes therefore she's not a woman and all this anti-trans rhetoric and going down this complete misunderstanding of how sex and gender work. And I just think that, well, what are we saying then about any other woman who has XY chromosomes? Because they exist, you know?

H: And also, if you're thinking like XY chromosomes equal man, you're very stuck on high school  biology.

T: It's wrong, it's incorrect.

H: Please go and like look at this because it's really interesting and nowhere near as binary as anybody is led to believe, including scientists. Like there's a lot of research has gone into this and nature doesn't do well with binaries, fundamentally. So, it's wrong firstly, but also when was the last time I mean, I don't know my chromosomes.

T: Oh, I ain't got a clue. Couldn't tell you.

H: And I don't know how I'd find that out either.

T: What I would also say as well in the same vein is like, you know, people talk about  high testosterone levels or high estrogen levels and all this stuff and how that  for some reason  dictates what gender you are. Bizarre.

H: Wild. It does not, for reference.

T: Yeah. So what about women like me then who have things like polycystic ovary syndrome and we have an excess of hormone that  makes our bodies work in a slightly different way. So does that mean that I'm not female anymore? 

H: Oh apparently not.

T: Do I scribble that bit out of my passport?

H: Yeah.

T: Because I don't know what the rules are anymore Henry.

H: Exactly.

T: The goalpost keeps shifting every time I check. 

H: This is why we need representation in sports so the goalposts stay-  But no yeah you're right though because the moment we say you're not a woman or you're not a man, you also need to define what is.

T: Yes.

H: And no one can do that because it's impossible to do because there are so many different types of person. That's never going to be a thing that you can do.

T: It's bizarre isn't it? It's like the constant conversation that we have around and it's always centred on what is a woman. It's never really centred on what is a man.

H: Misogyny!

T: It's like, do you know what mean? Like when we're talking about like the idea of gender conformity. And it's like oh- 

H: Well there are so many easier ways to police what a woman is.

T: Right yeah exactly this is where I'm going with this so it's things like being able to give birth and it's like, there are lots of women that don't give birth, never have give-, will give birth, don't want to, can't. Okay so they're not women anymore, or to use what they're telling us as female, you know? Not anymore apparently. People who have periods. There are loads of women that don't have periods.

H: Lots of men who do.

T: This is it though. Just so it doesn't make any sense.

H: And also the fact that intersex people exist. And I can't remember the number but it's the same percentage of people who are intersex as who have red hair. That's a lot of people. And again, similar to the chromosomes thing, a lot of people don't know. So like this  kind of thing, especially with conversations around  sex, gender, but particularly around intersex identities, a lot of people go their whole lives not knowing that they are intersex because it's never relevant to them and it's not a problem. They identify with the gender that they were assigned at birth. Awesome. Great. Love that for them. It only becomes a thing that people are aware of when it doesn't match up or when there are kind of medicinal issues I suppose that arise because of things like hormone imbalances or  things like that. So If, for instance, someone went into the Olympics as the gender that they are.

T: Assigned at birth.

H: And yeah. And then it came out through all of these tests like, actually you're intersex, your chromosomes don't line up, you can no longer compete.

T: Because we don't have an intersex category.

H: What? It's just strange to me.

T: It's really odd, isn't it?

H: Yeah, and especially for something like boxing where it's weight, uh, dictated anyway.

T: Yeah, it's weight categories.

H: Weight categories, that's it. So actually the people who are in the same weight category, surely that's a category in and of itself that's a lot more accurate than gender assigned at birth or even even sex assigned at birth.

T: Really strange.

H: And the other thing that the article kind of mentions is the fact that Khalif, through the legal implications and the big social media nonsense that happened with it, she called out celebrities like Trump, Elon Musk, J.K. Rowling for bullying her online without verified facts. But also she's pointed out like the distress that it brought on her family and friends.

T: Oh, of course.

H: Her mother, I think, ended up in hospital with stress because of this and it wasn't even a founded fact it wasn't true, and  like yeah, Khalif herself said that it went "beyond just a sporting issue or a game."

T: Absolutely agree with that.

H: I do think it's worth kind of mentioning though that actually Khalif is a cis woman. Like, it's all lies. So her saying that's a lie: fundamentally true. If she had been trans, it shouldn't have changed anything. Like, that's still bullying, that's ridiculous behaviour,

T: It's disgusting.

H: Like publicly shaming someone. So I think, Khalif, absolutely, we should rally towards her support because she didn't deserve any of this. It was absolute fabrication but there are lots of trans people who have similar responses and don't have the ability to say you're lying about me.

T: Yeah absolutely.

H: And that doesn't mean that they're any less-

T: Entitled to enter a competition-

H: And win! And be good at it.

T: Good at something yeah.

H: So like and I think that's a bit that I haven't heard as much of. There's been a lot of outrage because it's not true. Like yeah, but in some cases it is true. We also need to stand by those people and say that they deserve to be in this situation and be good at things. 

T: Slight sidebar but in a similar vein because it kind of still sport. But have you seen the discourse online about Natalie B Fitness and this woman that was going to open a women-only gym?

H: I don't think I have. 

T: Okay so  this person mostly sits on TikTok probably has all the social media but I don't so I don't  know. She started building up a bit of a profile during the lockdown years around opening a women only gym because she was very centred around women's safety and gyms not being a very nice place for a woman to be in, totally agree. So she was talking about this and she started crowdfunding it  and  someone rightly asked, okay well when you say for women-

H: How are you defining women?

T: How are you defining women? Yeah, who's it for? She's like yes, we're definitely trans inclusive, we want all women to feel safe at this gym.

H: Great.

T: Blah blah blah blah. Fabulous, great. Yeah, cue a load of people crowdfunding it whatever else. Two weeks ago, comes out, "Guys changed my mind. We're not letting trans women in the gym anymore." People went wild. It was really nice to see actually in terms of how many people spoke out like you're a disgrace, absolute disgrace  and you want to be giving people their money back that they've put into your project in terms of investment when you've lied. But the conversation was, for people who were completely against this backtrack, they were saying how are you planning to police this?

H: Yeah, that's the thing that always gets me, like how are we checking?

T: What are doing? Are we pulling people's trousers down at the  front desk?  I don't understand it because what are we defining as women first and foremost? So she vehemently came out and said that trans women aren't coming. So does that mean that if it's a woman only job that trans men are coming?

H: Yeah. Because if you don't want one kind of trans person, that kind of means that you don't want any kind of trans person  and therefore you don't recognise any kind of trans people.

T: It's just really odd isn't it? It's really strange. And let's think realistically, where else are you going to feel comfortable as a trans woman in any other gym?

H: Yeah.

T: I just don't get it, I don't understand. I just think that was  such  low hanging fruit, dog whistles to get a bit of attention and have this conversation yet again, particularly around trans women. And it's always the rhetoric around trans women in particular. And I just find it  so sad,  so odd, and I just, I think we are really slipping backwards as a society when we start having this conversation.

H: I do find it- interesting is the wrong word I think like- enlightening perhaps? That the conversation does always surround trans women because I think for me as a trans man as well it's really clear how much we fall through gaps. And I won't put any weight on that, it's not better, worse, it's different. Obviously trans women do end up becoming the face of a lot of things, and a lot of the face of this argument which is awful for them. There's also the other side of it where, as you very rightly said, like, what does that mean? We're allowing trans men in women's spaces? Because equally it  puts trans men in a very awkward position.

T: Absolutely.

H: Because  where are we wanted? It's strange. It's not strange, it's predictable because it's misogyny, but it's weird how there is just no conversation about trans men. I find this particularly, I think it was late last year, I think it was around this sort of point of conversation, a lot of sports membership  changed their rules on how you could compete.

T: Right, okay.

H: So for example, if you have a woman's team and a man's team,  there were then  caveats introduced of if you've been on gender affirming hormone care for  X number of years,  you can compete on  the gender you identify with. 

T: Okay.

H: Yeah, it came out with a lot of interesting debate. Also interesting debate, I say this heavy quotation marks "interesting," around trans children playing sport, which team they can play for.

T: The kids.

H: Yeah, get over yourselves.

T: Oh god, please.

H: Right.

T: Can we just get a grip? 

H: Right, yeah.

T: They're children.

H: This is the  enlightening thing, I think, is when it comes to just what people are scared of. Because I mean I went and had a look at a lot of it because like I said I do play sport and I would like to know if I'm gonna get yelled at for playing on the wrong team because I got asked to play on the men's team, if that suddenly changes I don't want to be the one at risk of that.

T: Of course

H: I'm not breaking the rules someone asked me. I was requested! But I went and had a look at things like the England hockey rules, requirements, policies. And there's very little mentioned on trans men in the policy.

T: And you're saying that because there is stuff mentioned on trans women?

H: There is a lot mentioned on trans women.

T: See this is really winding me up.

H: Yeah it is and because it's so... it just really proves the point that it's unfounded though because if you need that much specification and control over over women's bodies then it's clearly not that thought through because you've not added that same consideration for trans men because you don't think we're a problem because you're assuming that because of our bodies we're never gonna make it onto men's teams.

T: Correct, that is absolutely what it is.
H: Absolutely.

T: And you said it earlier, it is all based in misogyny.

H: 100%.

T: That's all this is. All this comes down to. That is why the discourse around trans women being a threat and trans men not being a threat all stems from.

H: 100%

T: It is misogyny

H: Yep. And it's coming back to that, we've mentioned the thing before, like asking what it is people are actually scared of. Because it's not trans people. But yeah, it's wild to me how there can be such, well, it's double standards, isn't it?  That's what it is, but yeah, policing of people's bodies and the fact that people think that they can say these things so boldly and that everyone will agree and more disturbingly that people do agree. 

T: Yeah,  yeah, absolutely. There seems to be a degree of comfortability around this conversation and just the general insinuation that  trans people just shouldn't exist and I just find that so bleak, Henry, and just like so like spine tingling in all the wrong ways. And it's conversations like this that catapult me back to the type of conversations that were happening in Nazi Germany.

H: Yeah, yeah.

T: You know what I mean? like, well how different is the rhetoric that was being said there around how Jewish people were genetically different and they don't match up and they're not this and they're not that and you know get rid of the people that are in wheelchairs because they're not right and we don't want to keep them on the planet and definitely get rid of all the queer people because oh something's gone wrong there. The conversation, that's a rinse and repeat.

H: Yeah, it hasn't evolved.

T: You know what mean? That's where we are again now with this conversation.

H: And this segues beautifully and it's just a pure spite from my part. I'm not gonna pretend that it's anything else. Like, the reason that we don't have all of the information about trans people's bodies.-

T: I know what you're gonna say!

H: Could that be maybe because the Nazis burned them all? Like.

T: Yes!

H: This is why there's still debate about what a trans person's physical capabilities are, what gender-reaffirming care is supposed to look like, because we did have a lot of that information, and oh wait someone decided that it didn't like it and burned it all. All of those really famous images around the book burnings in Nazi Germany, a lot of those are like the images are from the - I can't remember the name of it - like the Institute for Gender Research. 

T: Yeah that right, yeah.

H: And that narrative-

T: Just burned it to the ground.

H: Yeah.

T: All of the medical journals with it.

H: Very much a rinse repeat situation.

T: Oh my god, yeah. Can we say with absolute certainty, and I'm gonna keep it binary for this point of this conversation, it's gonna be medical and it's gonna be binary two things that I'm not really overly comfortable with but! Do we know for certain if we took an array of sports and we took an entire cohort of people that were born female and born male, and we put them into sports, a variety of sports. Can we say with absolute certainty that the male group would outperform the female group in terms of sporting ability?

H: No. No you cannot. Categorically.

T: So why on earth, then, do we insist on splitting them up like that? 

H: See, like it always winds me up. 

T: Yeah.

H: And especially things like non-binary people as well. I've seen it in lots of situations, not just in sport actually, in lots of situations where it's been like the women and non-binary group. 

T: Okay, right.

H: Again, that  sounds nice in theory in terms of, I guess, what you're probably wanting to present with that is this is a more inclusive space. Wonderful. Love that.

T: Yeah. 

H: What if, I don't know, masculine non-binary person rocks up into that space. It's for them. You've said that on the thing. Will they be accepted?

T: Probably not.

H: Probably not. So again it kind of hits that point of what are you classifying? What kind of person do you want in this space? I think that's the question isn't it? It's not even what's your perspective of gender? What does that look like? It's what kind of people do you want to exclude and just be upfront with it? I'd rather know at this point.

T: It's just so tangential. I watched something earlier and this woman was like, you know what, just really think we should bring back more overt racism. Everyone was like, what? This was from a Black woman as well. She said, "Yeah, yeah, I need to know where I'm spending my money and I don't want to be spending it with racist companies anymore. So if they could just let me know, if we could just go back to the no Blacks, no dogs, no Irish in shop windows, that would be great because then at least I know where I stand." You just sit there and you're like, oh god.

H: I've said it before like this is why I wear my pronouns on a badge is so that I can  notice who says-

T: The bigots.

H: Yeah, the person who says "Oh, well, why've you got pronouns?" Now I can be like, right, I'm just gonna avoid you then. 

T: Yep, absolutely.

H: Yeah, 100% it's signposting. But I think if you're gonna be insidious about these opinions I think you should at least have the courage to own up to them.

T: I agree.

H: So that I can elect to not be a part of that space.

T: Totally.

H: But yeah, a lot of nonsense happening especially around the debate that happened around Imane Khalif. That was ridiculous, unfair. stupid.

MUSIC

H: Our second article comes from West Ham United News, which I did not think existed until we found this.

T: Yeah, every football club's got their own news!

H: Obviously!

T: Obviously.

H: You know, if we ever have another article that comes up from like, Sportsplace TM, I'm gonna be so impressed. So yeah, this one is called "Rainbow Laces: Premier League and Clubs Highlight Commitment to LGBTQ+ Inclusion." And it focuses on the last week of November in 2024. So the article said that  that week particularly would showcase the work that they carry out year round to embed equality, diversity and inclusion in everything they do. This included a range of activity and content  including community and education initiatives, but also included captains wearing rainbow coloured armbands, Stonewall's rainbow lace campaign being really widely visible in stadiums and during fixtures. So  initially I must confess I was really sceptical of this because it was like, "Wow rainbow laces! We're looking from the 28th of November to the 5th of December!" and I was like oh, good. But no, it was very much this week advertises what we do in the rest of the year. This is just a publicity week. 

T: Yes.

H: Okay, fair enough.  I'll forgive them. So this comes from the Premier League, which is something that I know very little about, so you're probably gonna have to direct  a lot of this. 

T: Okay, fine.

H: So basically fans were reminded by the Premier League Chief Executive Richard Masters that "Everyone has a role to play in fighting discrimination," as well as their non-tolerance for discriminatory abuse both online and within grounds. The league also provides specific training for match day stewards to identify and respond to discrimination, which, I thought that was cracking. The Premier League equality, diversity and inclusion standard, which is a whole thing that I never knew existed, is mandatory for all Premier League clubs, so that's 27 clubs engaged with  it and 18 working towards the advanced level.  And that standard includes staff training, building a culture in which LGBTQ+ people can feel welcome and thrive, and the Premier League itself also provides free educational resources to schools that are involved in the Premier League Primary Stars campaign, gives students the opportunity to talk about the importance of LGBTQ+ inclusion in sport and beyond that. All of this was news to me and I loved it.

T: Oh I'm pleased! Has it convinced you to pick a team from the Premier League to start watching football?

H: Absolutely not! But I do appreciate that it all exists.

T: Okay, so just for your benefit really, the Premier League is comprised of the top teams across the UK. Think of it as your Manchester United, Liverpool - Someone's definitely going be snorting there that I said Manchester United was a top club because we're doing terribly at the moment - it's your Liverpool United, it's Man City, it's all of your big name football clubs.

H: Okay. All of the ones that even I have heard of. 

T: Yeah. Chelsea,

H: Great.

T: Tottenham.

H: I've heard of them.

T: There you go.

H: So they're influential clubs.
T: They are massive.

H: Visible as well.

T: Visible, massive clubs. They have got fans from all over the globe.

H: They are global global clubs, aren't they?

T: The Premier League is massive. Football in this country has been an institution for years. That's not going to change any time soon. For better or for worse, people have been loving football in this country for years and years and years. And that has then extended to around the globe. You do have other teams from other countries that are really well revered. Spain has some fantastic football teams. Things like Real Madrid, you've probably heard of?

H: I've heard of them!

T: There you go. You've got things like Benfica from Portugal, Bayern Munich, closing the titles, Munich is Germany. But again, all of these are global football clubs that have a massive impact on the way that we interact with each other in the world. So for me, especially like the Premier League having a very clear commitment to equality, diversity and inclusion is essential. Not only are they appealing to their fans by doing that and making sure that they are part of a wider community, it also means that we stamp out a lot of the behaviours that are actually quite commonly associated with being a football fan. I think there's definitely been a shift for the longest time when we start talking about women's football as well on an international scale. How that's changed things quite a bit. From my perspective when I was doing some research around what organisations have really good diversity and inclusion strategies there were several football clubs that came up and I was mightily impressed by the way that they were doing things. So all of this information for me is not new and I'm really glad that it's out there for the public to see and understand and have a wider view of what it is that the Premier League and then subsequently the teams within the Premier League are doing to support wider EDI. Going back to the topic specifically around LGBTQ representation, this has been a problem in football for years. Outwardly gay football players are notoriously hard to come by.

H: Yeah. This is the one bit that I am aware of.

T: Yes.

H: Is that there's a lot of  homophobia in there.

T:  Absolutely is. And I think that, whilst ever that's happening, we're not going to see that massive LGBTQ representation. I think it starts in schools and making sure that the foundation's right in school to then carry that on into people's adult lives when they go on playing football for these big massive clubs. The reason I say schools is because there's a massive link between kids coming up, we call it coming up through the academy. 

H: Well, yeah, because like you, that's where you're spotted, isn't it? In school matches.

T: That's right. 

H: That's where you're like taken from into a professional environment, isn't it?

T: Absolutely.  And there'll be children that have been  playing football since they're about 12 years old and then they get their debut on a multi-international platform at like 16, 17 years old.

H: I went to school with someone who, when, I think it was about 16, everyone kind of moved up to A levels and he was like, right, I'm off to play football for Chelsea, I think it was?
T: And because of that, we have to then make sure that the culture is right in schools around this and then when they do get into that space where they're being taught by the football club and that e-class is already instilled and puts them in a really good standing to then continue that up into their adult life.

H: And I guess as well, especially with the Premier League being so influential in this, they'll, I hope I'm right in saying this, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine they'll play people who aren't in the Premier League as well?

T: Yes, but it's a separate thing.

H: Okay but even so those values are still being shared.

T: Oh yeah absolutely yeah.

H: So like if you go and play in a stadium against a team that isn't a part of the Premier League EDI standard, you'll still be held to those same standards! Like that's the environment that you're playing in. If one team's shouting slurs at someone, the other team aren't going to stand for it. So it's kind of naturally raising the bar for everyone involved, which is great. 

T: Absolutely is. Yeah, and I mean, the end goal for a lot of these football teams is to end up in the Premier League. So actually having that baseline-

H: It makes sense to start off with those values, that behaviour. 

T: 100%! Have that ethos from day one and you're not going to find yourself, you know, extremely shocked when you are thrown into that type of situation where you're going to have to change everything.

H: Yeah and I think as well what you're saying about starting it off in schools, mean it's really nice to see the Premier League getting involved in schools with this kind of thing because also if, you know, you are a little gay kid liking football and actually the person that you look up to is there with a rainbow armband. That must be amazing to see.

T: Yeah, it must be really impactful. Really impactful. 

H: Like, I don't think that was anything I've ever seen.

T: No.

H: I'm now kind of wondering if this is why I don't do football, because...

T: I mean, it'll definitely play into it, won't it?

H: I do hockey,  which isn't quite so gendered in the same way, I don't think.

T: Sure.

H: It's probably because it's not as high profile as the Premier League and football is, or even rugby and stuff so like yeah I wonder if that's like my only real association with hockey was school. And like, to this day I could not name a single famous hockey player.

T: No, I don't think I could.

H: Not a clue. Do they even exist? I don't know. But yeah, so I'm now kind of wondering if that's why I've steered away from the big high profile games like football and rugby and even netball I guess to an extent, although that is very gendered. Yeah, I'm wondering if that's why I've steered away from them is because those were the ones that you heard like, "Oh, gay boy." Like, you heard those kind of phrasings being yelled. You didn't really hear that in hockey because no one really showed up.

T: No.

H: No one was enthusiastic about it enough to yell slurs in the stands.

T: No one was shouting it for trampolining and so I was safe there.

H: But yeah, I think it's really nice to see this and I think it will definitely make a difference.

T: I hope so.

H: Like you say, even if it's just to a few kids, I can't see that this would go unnoticed.

T: No. 

H: Myself excluded. But even I know of like the Rainbow Laces campaign, I know of gay footballers who are coming out being very open about this and  I know as well like with- you're gonna laugh at me here because I know nothing about like the big matches-

T: Yeah.

H: There was one that was in Dubai was it? Recently, and people were saying like I'm not playing there because our fans can't come and watch it.

T: Correct, yeah.

H: And like that's great to see that kind of advocacy.

T: I can't remember if it was the entire Euros campaign or the entire World Cup campaign that - basically they switch every two years between what's going on- and one of the entire campaigns was set in Dubai. And one of our key players, John Henderson,  had spoken up quite openly about how he'd really not been happy with the fact that in terms of LGBTQ inclusion... 

H: There isn't any. 

T: Dubai are really am missing the mark, actually. So, yeah, it was an interesting time.

H: Because I think as well, like I know obviously this episode is about LGBTQ representation in sport and actually I think football is probably, again, bearing in mind, caveating this with my limited exposure, I think it's probably one of the biggest places where I've seen a really good explicit allyship.

T: Yeah, that's fair.

H: Like, I don't think I've really, I mean, again, I wouldn't be able to name any footballer, probably, with authority, gay or not. But I would be able to go "That person," I would recognise a face and go, "you spoke up for us."

T: Absolutely.

H: I don't think I could do that in any other situation.

T: Sports wise?

H: Any other situation. I think there are very, very few very open allies. Like Lady Gaga is the one that is on my mind, but she is also bi. So I think whether or not they are allies because they are also in that community and just not out. I don't know, that's none of my business, but I think it's the one area where I've-

T: Seen allyship done well.

H: Yeah, yeah, and really, like, shamelessly as well. They really own it and say like, actually, this isn't for me. Whether or not that's true or not, I don't care. But the fact that they're saying like actually for our fans this is important and I will fight for that. Like that's great.

T: Yeah, I agree. I do see a glimmer of hope when it comes to talking about general inclusion and football.

H: Which is something that I never really thought I could move towards. 

T: Who'd have thunk it? 

H:Love to see it.

MUSIC

H: So we did have questions, but actually we've answered them all throughout our conversation, so we'll cut those for today.  So in the meantime, thank you so much for joining us for this episode of D &I Digest. It's been really interesting for me to actually explore because I've not really done it before.

T: Did you ever imagine a situation where me and you would be sat down talking about football?

H: I'll be totally honest, I never knew you liked football.

T: Really?

H: No!

T: Oh!

H: So, there we go.  Find something new about people every day.

T: Every day.

H: So, yeah, remember that you can follow us on our website and on social media and we hope that you'll come back in to listen in next month. So it's bye from me

T: And bye from me.

Both: Bye!