Episode 2 – Caryn Moore Lund Talks Vertiports

🚁✨ Exploring the Future of Air Travel: Caryn Moore Lund, VP of Public Policy, Regulatory, and Government Affairs at Ferrovial Airports, delves into the revolutionary concept of Vertiports in our latest podcast episode. Discover how these small, secure facilities pave the way for electric vertical takeoff and landing (eVTOL) aircraft, promising eco-friendly, efficient mobility. From the timeline for commercialization to Florida leading the way, Caryn unveils the imminent changes in air transportation. Airlines, airports, and other industries are investing, while public officials and developers must gear up for a seamless integration process. Tune in to stay ahead in the era of advanced air mobility! 🌐🔊 

Meet Today's Guest:

Caryn Moore Lund is Vice President of Public Policy, Regulatory and Government Affairs for Ferrovial Vertiports. Backed by Ferrovial's 70 years of transportation infrastructure experience, Ferrovial Vertiports is developing a series of vertiport networks in the United States and Europe. Ferrovial Vertiports will be the safe, secure and efficient landing facilities that will enable the introduction and scaling of Advanced Air Mobility. In her role, Carlyn leads the Federal, State, local, and community partnerships to support the development of zero-emission aviation networks. Prior to joining Ferrovial in 2023, Mrs. Lund led North American partnerships for aircraft manufacturer Lilium, and served in leadership roles at the US Department of Transportation and on the US House of Representatives Committee on Transportation and Infrastructure. She is a graduate of UCLA. Caryn has developed a reputation in the industry as a trusted and experienced leader by aligning various stakeholders and sometimes disparate interests behind a unified, thoughtful, and strategic approach to public policy on the federal, state, and local levels.

Meet the Expert Co-Hosts:

Marshall Macomber is a visionary executive with a unique blend of business development, political strategy, communications, and public sector experience. He is founder and president of ThinkP3, a DC-based consulting and lobbying firm promoting innovative infrastructure solutions and alternative delivery models such as public-private partnerships (P3s). He played a key role in the 2021 infrastructure bill, initiating a vital USDOT program for state DOTs. Macomber is also a former Chief of Staff to Congressman Mike Rogers and holds an MBA from Georgetown University. A member of George Washington University’s ESG & Infrastructure Steering Group and other boards, he is a frequent speaker, panelist and moderator at industry events.  A driving passion for growing public transit, building walkable and equitable cities, decarbonizing America’s energy grid, and improving railroad infrastructure and operations gets him up in the morning and keeps him up at night.

Mary Scott Nabers is President/CEO of Strategic Partnerships, Inc. (SPI). SPI is a recognized pioneer in the business of partnering public and private entities for commercial ventures.  A recognized expert in government contracting, procurement consulting, business development, political strategy, and P3s. She is the author of Collaboration Nation – How Public-Private Ventures Are Revolutionizing the Business of Government & Inside the Infrastructure Revolution – A Roadmap for Rebuilding America.

Mary served as a statewide office holder in Texas for a decade and founded Strategic Partnerships, Inc., a 28 year old company that offers procurement consulting, research, government affairs and guidance in Public Private Partnerships to clients from all industry groups. The SPI Team provides consulting services in 18 states and research service in all 50 states.Her articles have been published by media outlets, including Forbes, CNBC, The Hill, & POLI

Transcript

Marshall Macomber (00:01.078)

Welcome back everyone to The Connection, a podcast of government market news. I'm your co host, Marshall McCumber of ThinkP3 in Washington, DC. And I'm joined with my colleague and co host, Mary Scott Nabruz, who's the president and CEO of Strategic Partnerships in Austin. Hi, Mary.

Mary Scott Nabers (00:19.687)

Hi, Marshall.

Marshall Macomber (00:21.294)

We have yet another amazing conversation planned today. We're talking about the revolution in air travel in so many ways. And joining us in studio is one of the key thought leaders, Karen Moore Lund, who's the vice president of public policy, regulatory, and government affairs for Ferrovial Airports. Karen's going to tell us all about what's going on in this space. It's an exciting time for sure. There's also some challenges ahead, and we want to hear about that too. Karen, thanks for joining us. Welcome.

Thanks for taking your time.

Caryn Moore Lund (00:52.983)

Mary Scott, thanks so much for having me. Delighted to be here.

Marshall Macomber (00:56.758)

So, Karen, let's jump right into this. Everybody knows what an airport is. What is a vertiport and how is it different?

Caryn Moore Lund (01:07.187)

Great question. So the off the cuff answer is vertiport is the airport that you want in your backyard after years sort of globally of backlash against development and growth in the airport sector and more aviation travel. What we're finding is that vertiport, which are small, safe, secure facilities that allow for the operation of electric vertical and takeoff aircraft. So these are aircraft that are all electric. 

So, a lower noise signature and no emissions, but can take off like a helicopter and fly like an airplane. They're gonna be powered by batteries. And so what this allows a Vertiport to be is a much smaller, more convenient, more proximal aviation facility that can integrate into a community or a business development or point of interest and allow for aviation to serve that facility versus just having aviation at airports.

Marshall Macomber (02:01.354)

Now you say it's the airport that everyone does want in their backyard. You mentioned noise. We mentioned footprint, traffic and so forth. Why do I want a Vertiport in my backyard?

Caryn Moore Lund (02:11.639)

Absolutely, great question. So 360 degrees of connectivity, no operating emissions, noise profile of 65 decibels, which is a little quieter than most dishwashers at 300 feet and inaudible at cruise flight. They are going to cruise at 2500 to 5000 feet. So this isn't something that's hovering over your house. It's not a little drone. The aircraft that are going to use vertiports are safety certified by the FAA or the aviation equivalent in their jurisdiction like EASA in Europe.

And so it's safe, quiet, and provides you a new mobility option. So instead of just being limited to roads, rail, existing airports, think about where you could go. At my former company, Lilium, out of Germany, was started by a real visionary. And so he kept us grounded in the why we were working so hard. He called it the radius of life. Right. What would you do if you could get anywhere in 100 miles in under an hour?

And think about — where would you go to school? Where would you go to your doctor? Where would you work? What would you do for fun? How often would you interact with family or friends that maybe you're not as connected to as you currently are? Now, we're not gonna have vertiports everywhere. They do require that one to three acres. And so that's not a postage stamp much smaller than an airport. But we do think there's going to be networks of vertiports that are gonna allow for a much higher degree of connectivity and real value in time savings, right? 

These are gonna be high speed aircraft going between 100 and 200 miles per hour. So compared to the other options that are currently available, much more flexible, much more adaptable and really providing a ton of value in time saving for the user.

Marshall Macomber (03:51.982)

Talk. Go ahead, Mary.

Mary Scott Nabers (03:52.123)

So Karen, so, you know, this is very, very futuristic and people who have not been really reading about this and who maybe don't spend, live their life, you know, with infrastructure issues like all three of us do, they're gonna wanna know how long in the future are we going to have to wait? And is the United States behind other countries? Because I hear we are behind.

So talk to us about a timeline here. Everything I read, you know, there are different timelines. So talk to us about that if you would.

Caryn Moore Lund (04:29.979)

Absolutely. Well, we're really on the cusp of it. Next year, this is almost the end of 2023. 2024 is going to be impaired. And it's so important for this industry. The first aircraft are going to be undergoing their serial test flight campaign. So this is the production aircraft, the one that's going to be out in the market. It's going through their test flight campaign. So these are market leaders like Choby, Archer, Volocopter, and Beta are putting the real aircraft with pilots inside,

flying real operations. And what's really exciting, specific for the US, is we have the Agility Prime program here under the US Air Force. And that's where the Air Force is partnering with some of these manufacturers to allow for military adaptation of the vehicles. And they're doing military test flight campaigns right now, currently, as we speak, at Edwards Air Force Base, down at Duke Air Force Base in Florida. So next year, I mean, in the next 12 months, we anticipate seeing these aircraft go through many of the final milestones to achieve their safety certification. 

Next comes commercialization, and that's going to take up, have a longer ramp up period. The companies are well underway on developing production facilities. They've been really savvy in engaging with auto OEMs and manufacturers to ensure production capabilities, supply chain management, some of those things that the major car companies are great at. And so we have a clear path to scaled production of these aircraft.

On the global side, we certainly have the first certified EVTOL aircraft certified in China this year. It's a one passenger autonomous aircraft. And we are excited to see this as a global marketplace. However, the United States does hold some of those really important OEMs. Joby, Archer, Beta that I've mentioned. Eve is a subsidiary of Embraer, so a shared company between the state of Florida and Brazil. And then Volocopter and Lilium and Airbus in Europe are developing European options, but then also certifying in the United States. 

So thankfully the US and our allies, well, we maybe have different ways of doing this. We are going to be well positioned if we continue the hard work that's ahead of us.

Mary Scott Nabers (06:43.263)

Marshall, if I can ask one more question, I swear I'm going to get quiet and let you jump in here. So Kara and I were shocked to hear that in California, two of the major airlines have already formed agreements with these companies and that it is moving this quickly because there's not been enough public attention. The media has really not given a lot of attention to this.

So is California going to be the first state? Are they going to lead in this?

Caryn Moore Lund (07:15.855)

We're really excited about California. I would anticipate in the United States that Florida is gonna be first. Most of these aircraft are gonna fly under visual flight rules at first. So they need blue sky. And I'm from California. We have a lot of blue sky, but we also do have things like fog and other weather that would inhibit this. So I think the states that Federal VIA sees as key early movers would be Florida, the tri-state area, so the Northeast corridor region.

Southern California and then Texas where you're sitting. We see those as all prime, but right now if I'm putting money on it, and we are, I think South Florida is gonna take the cake for the United States as the first location where these commercialize.

Marshall Macomber (07:58.314)

Mary gets right to one of my questions about some of the incumbents that are already in the space, and those being of course the major airlines and of course the major airports themselves. Are you seeing airlines investing directly into the manufacturers or in the development of these facilities?

Caryn Moore Lund (08:13.003)

Yes, for both. So what we're really excited about is that we're seeing partnerships. Most of these are letters of intent or warrants, sort of guaranteed orders, either, you know, soft to hard orders from incumbent. And so these are sort of your big legacy carriers. The airlines that I take down to fly to Austin, like United, American, and Delta have partnerships, but also some of the vertical operators. 

So in Texas, Bristow, that provides a lot of helicopter the oil and gas industry. They're in a leadership position here by bringing on a really robust order book of diversified EV toll aircraft. And so we're seeing incumbents engage, but also because of some of the regulatory matters about how airlines operate. These are going to need to be individual companies. Yesterday, actually, a company was announced to specifically serve South Florida Urban X, and they are a local company that's focused there with the backing of a new entrant airline. 

So we're seeing some unique partnerships develop, and I'd anticipate there certainly will be more over the next two, three, four years.

Marshall Macomber (09:19.298)

So you see, you'd mention the northeast as one of your, or the tri-state area as one of your key markets up there, but I want to push you on this a little bit. That's one of the most congested pieces of airspace in the world, as we all know. I mean, Texas increasingly is very congested as well.

Mary Scott Nabers (09:30.525)

Yeah.

Marshall Macomber (09:34.474)

You can't, how do you really slide in these aircraft operating perhaps autonomously one day into an already congested airspace that we know is so tightly regulated, as it should be, by the FAA?

Caryn Moore Lund (09:49.755)

Absolutely. Well, I think it's that in any given minute, there's about 10% of the world's air travel is in that New York tricon, right? So think about what that means for the global economy. And I think that even if we can take just a part of that, what does that mean for us as a company? What does that mean for the New York, New Jersey, Connecticut economies as a region and their connectivity? 

So I don't think we're necessarily going to be able to turn on a dime and flood the skies of New York City. That's not how the production capabilities or the FAA's integration plans are built around that. But I do think that building off of existing helicopter routes. So New York is one of those places where if you're a wealthy individual, you can jump on a blade or a heli-flight helicopter out of the three existing Manhattan real fancy and taking your private jet or out to the Hamptons. So we do see a really robust helicopter network there currently. 

However, it's always in peril legislatively up in Albany. There's consistently bills to try to address the noise and emissions that those helicopter operations bring. And so every year, those companies that are operating in that space have this huge uncertainty. Well, they're also having these negative impacts on their surrounding communities. So I think for the Northeast, the step one would be,

replacing some of those helicopter operations with EV toll operations, making them more sustainable, making them more accessible at the lower price point, and allowing those to be supplanted by EV tolls. Well, then we can ramp up. And so it's going to be building on existing infrastructure, building on existing flight paths and procedures to allow us to demonstrate value, demonstrate safety, and fully integrate over the coming years.

Marshall Macomber (11:39.243)

Mary, you have a question.

Mary Scott Nabers (11:40.759)

So yeah, Karen, I wanna talk about the other companies that might want to be thinking about getting involved here. So you're going to have the air taxi, you're gonna have the heliport. But, and so I'm sure construction companies will be involved, power, energy, all of that. But talk about the others who'll want to start following this trend, especially if it's coming as quickly as it appears to be coming.

Caryn Moore Lund (12:12.539)

Absolutely. So I think if you're an asset owner, whether in the private sector as a developer, as a P3 operator the way our parent company is, or if you're a, you know, city manager, county clerk, CFO, state DOT, you're going to want to be thinking about, okay, where do I have one to three acres that is proximal to points of interest? How do I plan for this? Where do I have a transportation desert where the trip is, should be taking 20 minutes, but it's taking an hour. 

And how can I begin to plan for these things? We're working with developers, so people who own shopping malls or other assets to incorporate this into their long-term planning and would certainly, and on both the state and local side, one area of real interest would be parking, whether that's on the public side or on the private side.

There is a real need for second lives for some parking garages, and then there's still a need for new garages elsewhere. This is highly regionalized, highly dependent on the communities they serve. And so we will be participating in multiple P3s where we are the accelerant to deliver a parking project for a community that had one in their development agreement, but wasn't able to get it off the ground. So we'll have a parking garage that we're structurally ensuring can take the sort of significant weight and the demands of these aircraft and allow for a really pleasant and efficient passenger experience while also serving the community as a parking facility. Similarly, if you have an existing aviation facility, electrification, how do we bring back electricity to some airports where we've been taking wires down for a long time, thinking about how we bring that back to electrify.

Mary Scott Nabers (13:54.155)

One more question. Okay, let's just assume that I am in one of your air taxis and I'm in California and I have a meeting in downtown California, some city, Los Angeles, San Francisco, and I take off from the airport and my flight is gonna be a lot quicker. Where do I land?

Caryn Moore Lund (14:17.379)

Well, hopefully you landed at the Fajr-Oval Vertiport. So for, let's just take downtown Los Angeles, there's a lot of redevelopment going along there. There's a lot of intermodalism that we're seeing. And so our goal would be to get you as close to that meeting as possible. So that way we don't just create more congestion at one end or slow you down on the other end. And so we identify our vertiport locations based on existing trip data. And so we know where those hot, hot points of the heat map are for points of interest and current trips.

So we'll know, oh, Mary, there's a ton of people that are going from LAX to Pershing Square. And so we have that information, then we'll look down at the block by block level. Where can we get good first and last mile connectivity? Where do we have community buy-in? Where can we safely and efficiently operate these from an airspace integration perspective? And so I might not be able to put you on the top of your building where you're having your meeting, but our hope would be that we put you maybe on top of a parking garage or an intermodal facility, a couple of blocks away. And from there, you can have a nice walk in that pleasant California sunshine and be at your meeting on time and reliably, right? You're not questioning whether it's gonna take you 20 minutes or an hour and 20 minutes.

Marshall Macomber (15:32.622)

How does the, again, thinking about some of the major airports out there, what's their role in all of this? And do local governments, I would say, generally see this as an opportunity to increase and improve mobility. However, I could see them, I could see this new urban air mobility siphoning off a key segment of traffic from the major airports, which takes away fees, which takes away concession fees, some of which these airports operate as P3s as they are now.

How would you respond to that if an airport says, you know, no thanks, we're going to make sure we're going to put up barriers to entry here.

Caryn Moore Lund (16:08.155)

Absolutely. So I think we have to go to the map on all of these things, especially when we're talking about fees and P3s, right? So let's look at the actual number of regional flights in any given airport. And I think unfortunately, at a macro level, there's some bright spots out there, but at the macro level, we're seeing a really massive decline in regional service. In the last 10 years, COVID accelerated it and it's not come back in the way that hub to hub or larger airport service has been.

And so think about Texas, right? You have tons of flights going into DFW and IAH, but then in some ways it can be really challenging to get further out, to get to Laredo, to get to Midland, and you're maybe at one or two flights a day, whereas five or 10 years ago you had a lot more, and the airport was making a lot more off of those flights. And so we're certainly seeing airlines prioritizing the highest amount of people that they can squeeze into a metal tube.

And those most revenue generating routes, and sometimes those aren't regional. And this is gutting great small carriers that we fully anticipate are going to step up and participate in the advanced air mobility revolution. Names that you might not know, but that you probably fly all the time on those smaller routes, right? They have a agreement, so with the major carrier, it's interlined, we would anticipate advanced air mobility interacting very similarly. And when we put it to airports that way, they get it.

They know how to do this. It's just a slightly different aircraft. One thing where we're really committed to is ensuring the safety and efficiency of that facility. If we're developing in or around an airport, we have to ensure that we don't save somebody a bunch of time getting there just to have them stuck on the tarmac. 

So thinking about JFK, a project that Federal Aviation Airport is developing, with and when we put a vertiport at JFK, if there's any negative impact on the big JFK new terminal one project and all of those wide bodies flying all over the world and being the global gateway for the United States, our vertiport has failed. And so it's really those synergistic projects where we're able to address a need that the airport or airlines in that airport can't currently provide, while also giving the consumer what they want.

Marshall Macomber (18:24.618)

Is it a cost structure issue? Because in case you talk about the regional flights and the decline of regional flights, understand these aircraft are powered by electricity. Presumably there's batteries or some other storage device on the unit to make it fly a certain amount of route. Is it a cost? Because arguably those routes would be in existence if they were profitable. I think what I hear you saying is maybe it's simply a lower cost of operations for EVTOL and Vertiport that would attract smaller mid-size communities to invest alongside with your company and others to get these types of flights established again. Is that what I'm hearing?

Caryn Moore Lund (18:59.095)

Yes, so cost is going to be really important in one of the areas where this differentiates between existing aviation and thinking about existing helicopter operations, right? We've talked sort of about the millionaires or the billionaires flying over the millionaires on Long Island and the constant food fight that is. We have to bring down the costs in order to make this an economically viable operation. So the multiple ways that we're doing that, you talked about electricity, avgas, very expensive compared to the cost of charging a battery.

Beta did a fantastic national flight actually from their headquarters in Burlington down to the Dallas-Fort Worth area not long ago. And I think it was like $11 each time they had to stop to fill up in charging fees. So compared to what the hundreds of dollars that would be for Avgas. So we know, cost is gonna be less. And also like sort of your personal electric vehicle if you have one, a much simplified aircraft, many fewer moving parts.

And we would anticipate and what we're seeing is simpler to build, so cheaper, and then simpler to operate and maintain. So more hours in service, less being in maintenance, and also less cost when that maintenance occurs. Now, probably the big cost that any aviation stakeholder is acutely aware of is pilots and pilot supply currently. This is going to be subject to those realities. Advanced air mobility is not protected from that.

One area that we're really excited about is that this allows the chance for people to be pilots and sleep in their same bed every single night. And what we've seen in other industries like trucking is that it's a lot easier to recruit and maintain a workforce when they have a better quality of life. And so taking pilots necessarily from long haul and bringing them back short haul, maybe making it something more viable for a working mom like me to do versus having to be overnighting. So

We're hopeful that there's going to be a quality of life, much quieter work environment when we think about both the pilot workforce and the ground crew, no emissions. These things we think are gonna be meaningful. And we also are tracking to in the future, the technology for autonomy and then the rules and regulations around them maturing to the place where we could have remotely piloted and then fully autonomous flight that are also then gonna really drive the costs down.

Marshall Macomber (21:17.794)

Yeah, Mary.

Mary Scott Nabers (21:18.295)

So Karen, on these podcasts, what we really try to do is we try to give a lot of value to public officials who may be thinking about this. And then we try to provide a lot of insight into private sector companies who also may want to get involved. So let me ask you about this. If I'm a public official, let's say I'm a municipality just outside one of the major airports.

And I'm interested in looking at this. Or on the other hand, let's say I'm a developer in the same area and I want to work with a city to maybe develop a heliport or have the land or bring in the big guys like Ferrovial and the others. What advice would you give them right now to get prepared, both segments?

Caryn Moore Lund (22:14.171)

Sure. So what we're seeing that's really working well at cities, counties, and states is someone who's acutely familiar with the priorities of the mayor or county commission or governor to be tagged as the key POC and the key subject matter expert within that office. So city of Orlando has done this and this person isn't just the advanced air mobility nerd, right? They also have full visibility and integration into the priorities of the city. 

And so that's a real integration between, okay, what is advanced air mobility, but really how does it serve our needs? And so they're doing a really cohesive review of their zoning and planning, right? So very few places, Orlando actually has one, have bird ports as an allowable land use. And so there are going to be, need to be some updates, whether it's in underlying zoning or ensuring that the conditional use process for local land use that they're going to have a process where a verticorp can be zoned and where a community and a developer can come together and figure out how this facility is going to operate, how it benefits them, sort of the time and how to make sure that everyone's voice is heard. That's going to happen in a zoning process. So if you have any land use or zoning role in your community, call me, call other people, call JoBee, call Archer, call Lilia. We would love to talk to you.

We'd be happy to point you to FDOT, Texas. They're doing great work on what does this look like at these different levels of government. Reach out to the FAA, they've done a fantastic job. On the private side, again, call us, but I would also say, really assess an inventory. Where do you have a facility that serves a point of interest but doesn't have the connectivity that you wish it had or that you know you want to protect for in the future?

And begin thinking about, okay, can we start having, whether it's a day one operation, or we just ensure that it can take the structural weight of these aircraft, or that we have the transmission capabilities for the charging of these aircraft. I think that would be a really sensible approach and would encourage, and we're seeing great developers really step up to that.

Marshall Macomber (24:27.242)

So, kind of piggybacking on what Mary's going for, and I think, Karen, you'd mention this as well, from a regulatory perspective and how these companies would be prepared to enter this space, this is a federal, state, and local undertaking. That's what I hear you saying.

Caryn Moore Lund (24:42.231)

Yes. Yes, I would say federal, state, local community, right? Like we are in front of HOAs and tourism boards because we have to be where we're wanted. If we are in litigation or have communities around us that don't want us there, that's not going to be a commercially successful project. And so every level of government and organization plays a role.

Marshall Macomber (25:06.494)

As Mary and I have talked about on this podcast before, there really is no shortcut, especially when we're talking about safety, air travel, there's no shortcut. And no one's saying there should be a shortcut here just because it's new technology. In many ways, it's still infrastructure development, and it's got to be done the right way and involving all levels of government. Mary, what do you think about all this?

Caryn Moore Lund (25:12.463)

Absolutely.

Mary Scott Nabers (25:26.087)

Well, I just think as we enter a new year, we always try to look at, okay, what's ahead for us? What does the future look like? Especially for the government marketplace. And this certainly is one of the trends that is gaining steam, growing faster than we ever thought possible. And it's surprising to us that so few people really believe this is happening, or it's going to be in our future within probably the next 18 to 24 months.

So we really appreciate your expertise. You've been wonderful. Thank you so much.

Caryn Moore Lund (26:01.859)

Thank you so much for having me. This was so fun to talk about. I could talk about it all day and I'm just delighted to join you guys.

Marshall Macomber (26:08.138)

We could too. Thank you, Karen, for being here today. Mary, any other final comments? If none, we'll look forward to seeing some Vertiports and some Evytals flying around us somewhere in the Zoom. Thanks for joining us on the podcast. Thanks everybody.