Episode 4 - Victoria Johnson Talks Equity in Infrastructure

Join hosts Marshall Macomber and Mary Scott Nabers on the latest episode of The Connection: Partnering Public & Private Entities podcast, as they engage in a dynamic conversation on equity in public infrastructure with Victoria Johnson, Global Equity Director for HDR.

Johnson provides invaluable insights into the multifaceted concept of equity, delving into its implications for the distribution of benefits and burdens across communities. From race and income to geography, she sheds light on the complex dynamics shaping infrastructure development in the United States.

As the discussion unfolds, Johnson underscores the importance of strategic partnerships and collaboration among diverse stakeholders, echoing the transformative potential of a people-centered approach to infrastructure planning and implementation.

Meet This Week’s Expert Guest: Victoria Johnson

Victoria Johnson has joined HDR’s water practice as a global equity director. In this role, she will lead an established equity practice, providing advisory services to infrastructure leaders to shape and integrate equity and justice priorities for federal, state and local agencies. She will work closely with HDR’s leadership across multiple markets and geographies to shape and steward HDR’s external equity strategy and goals for broader benefits to communities.  

Johnson is a highly accomplished practice leader with 19 years of experience in the consulting industry, including a diverse portfolio of work in major U.S. markets including New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, Miami and Atlanta.  

Meet expert co-hosts:

Marshall Macomber is a visionary executive with a unique blend of business development, political strategy, communications, and public sector experience. He is founder and president of ThinkP3, a DC-based consulting and lobbying firm promoting innovative infrastructure solutions and alternative delivery models such as public-private partnerships (P3s). He played a key role in the 2021 infrastructure bill, initiating a vital USDOT program for state DOTs. Macomber is also a former Chief of Staff to Congressman Mike Rogers and holds an MBA from Georgetown University. A member of George Washington University’s ESG & Infrastructure Steering Group and other boards, he is a frequent speaker, panelist and moderator at industry events.  A driving passion for growing public transit, building walkable and equitable cities, decarbonizing America’s energy grid, and improving railroad infrastructure and operations gets him up in the morning and keeps him up at night.

Mary Scott Nabers is President/CEO of Strategic Partnerships, Inc. (SPI). A recognized expert regarding P3s, she is the author of Collaboration Nation – How Public-Private Ventures Are Revolutionizing the Business of Government & Inside the Infrastructure Revolution – A Roadmap for Rebuilding America. Her articles have been published by media outlets, including Forbes, CNBC, The Hill, & POLITICO.  Mary was the President and General Manager of two media firms. In government, she served as the Commissioner representing Business at the Texas Employment Commission where she was a high-profile, proactive business advocate who founded The Texas Business Council. Then, Commissioner Nabers moved to the Texas Railroad Commission, the state’s regulatory agency for the oil and gas industry, which at the time regulated approximately $65 billion of the state’s economy annually. 

Transcript

Marshall Macomber (00:02) 

Welcome back everyone to the connection of podcast of Government Market News. I'm your cohost, Marshall Macomber of ThinkP3 here in Washington, DC. And I'm joined as always by my colleague and cohost, Mary Scott Nabers, present CEO of Strategic Partnerships in Austin, Texas. Mary, how are you? You know, Mary, we are once again, the fascinating conversations we're having here. 

We have another timely, interesting and terrific conversation ahead of us. And it is this: equity as it relates to public infrastructure. And a specialist and expert and a friend of mine joining us today, Victoria Johnson, who's the Global Equity Director for HDR, is going to help walk us through this. Victoria, welcome. 

Mary Scott Nabers (00:20) 

Good morning, Marshall. 

Victoria Johnson (00:48) 

Thank you so much for having me, Marshall and Mary. Really excited to be with you today and have a conversation about this important topic. 

Marshall Macomber (00:57) 

Thanks, Victoria, for being here. So, let's get right into this. Let's start with some basic definitions for many of our contractors who might be listening or maybe perhaps some of our public officials too. For public infrastructure Victoria, what does equity mean? 

Victoria Johnson (01:12) 

Sure, so with public infrastructure, what we're referring to when we talk about equity is essentially the distribution of burdens and benefits across people, places, and policies. So essentially, we know throughout the United States of America, whether it's our roads, bridges, transit systems, water infrastructure, our power lines, they are distributed throughout our country, whether they're in urban centers, more remote areas. 

And there's also a mix of, again, the presence of our public infrastructure for more affluent communities as well as more low-income communities. So, when we're talking about equity in public infrastructure, we're essentially talking about how are the benefits and burdens of that infrastructure, whether it's proximity, living adjacent to a wastewater treatment plant, living adjacent to a highway or an interstate or an airport. 

How are we essentially distributing the benefits of that infrastructure, the capital planning, the revenue essentially generated from the operations and maintenance of public infrastructure, as well as again the environmental burdens of the infrastructure. And a lot of that is rooted in race, income, and geography in terms of your zip code, which also has some economic impacts. 

There are economic factors. So again, when we're talking about public infrastructure and equity, we're talking about essentially the distribution of burdens and benefits across people, places, and policy. 

Marshall Macomber (02:47) 

Now I know Mary has a question. She wants to jump in, but I've got to ask one more basic definition question here. A lot of people think about equity, they think about money, finance, especially as we're talking about public-private partnership, investing into a project. Is there a connection between private equity, money equity, and the type of equity you're talking about? 

Victoria Johnson (03:08) 

So there are synergies, but quite frankly, we are talking about different areas, essentially we're talking about private equity with regards to finance, as well as equity, of course, with regards to public infrastructure. The synergies essentially really do speak to, again, as we're talking about managing our infrastructure across the US, that there is considerable investment, in terms of capital and dollars. 

So essentially from a financial perspective, particularly in conjunction with equity, how are we ensuring that essentially the investment, the financial investment that we're making in managing our infrastructure with of course the public sector, managing that in partnership with the private sector in terms of professional services and contractors and the like, how are we ensuring that those dollars are allocated equitably? 

Again, whether it's looking at which communities get necessary funding and investment for asset management and the like versus maybe low income communities that which tend to be more black and brown don't get the same level of investment. So again, the flow of where those dollars go, Marshall, as well as even beyond the actual projects itself in terms of the entities, the private sector entities where there are contractors, professional services firms, minority women-owned businesses, veteran entities and the like.  

How are we also ensuring that those capital dollars that we invest in our infrastructure are also funneled into local small-owned businesses essentially that tend to be underrepresented in infrastructure? 

As well as jobs and opportunities for residents who live adjacent to those projects, live essentially in target zip codes that tend to experience more of the burdens. How are we ensuring the economic flow and access of those dollars essentially through public infrastructure? So that's the financial synergy, if you will, of equity and finance when we're talking about public infrastructure. 

Marshall Macomber (05:16) 

In many cases, talking about returns and outcomes, they are quite similar. Mary, I know you want to jump in here with some questions. 

Go ahead. 

Mary Scott Nabers (05:23) 

Well, mostly I just want to talk about this because we've always had minority businesses, small businesses, veteran owned, disabled veteran certifications. And so that's not new. What is new is so many corporations have been encouraged to instigate diversity, equity, and inclusion policies and procedures. 

Many universities and colleges have professors who specialize there. And that has now become political. It's become there's a resistance. And many states, not maybe not many, but numerous states have issued proclamations saying decisions should not be made on these three, in these three categories. Decisions should just be made. 

And it is totally confusing. It's confusing to public officials who are making decisions. And because there's federal mandates with this infrastructure money to make sure that it is equitable and that there is inclusion and there is diversity. And then it's really confusing to contractors when they go in to present themselves. Do they say we have all of this program, do they say, we will make sure in our solicitation proposals, we will do this, it's just hard to know what to do. And we get called for advice from both sides all the time. And I don't know Victoria that anyone can answer that question right now. Let me take, because I know you're going to have a better answer than I have.   

All what I say to companies and to public officials who call us. The federal money that is coming in does have restrictions, mandates, so it has to be taken considerably into every decision that's made. However, I think it's important for contractors who are going in to look at what's happening locally.  

What is happening in your state? Are there mandates? Is this a political issue? What's the community you're going to be serving? So with that, with that very general answer that we normally give, Victoria, do you have any more, I guess, specific advice you would give on this? 

Victoria Johnson (08:08) 

Sure, sure, and great question, Mary. As you said, there's certainly a variety of perspectives and opinions on this topic. And we're certainly at different parts of our journey when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion and the role that it plays, particularly in infrastructure as the public and private sectors work together. There's three things that come top of mind that I would share, Mary. 

The first would be to really understand where the agency is, meet the agency where they are in terms of, I think we all mean well, in terms of just wanting to ensure that constituents and residents and taxpayers have what they need regardless of where they are in our great country. But it's important that depending on the agency, right, that you're talking to and working with. 

Get an understanding of their perspective, their leadership, their general manager, the CEO, their commission. Most agencies have a strategic plan. Get an understanding of the agency's vision, their mission, their values. Every organization, be it an agency, be it a private sector, contractor, or a community-based organization has a culture. So one I would say, get a true understanding of their priorities, their position. 

And their approach to these issues as one, because I think it's very important in terms of the private sector. You mentioned contractors, of course, meeting with public sector agencies to provide them with support to meet people where they are. And I know we talk a lot about meeting folks where they are in terms of individual workforce, which is very important but even in this case, to your point, as contractors are talking with agencies meet the agency where they are in terms of getting an understanding of their perspectives priorities concerns  

When it comes to this topic, that's one Two, I believe in leading with data lead with demographics every agency has a jurisdiction and a service area that they serve and those are essentially the constituents that they are accountable to so again whether they're providing transit services or water or whatever the infrastructure mode that they're managing, it's very important to understand the demographics of their service area. And that will really tell us everything that we need to know in terms of looking at the demographics, whether it's a mix of urban and more rural, geographic areas, seniors up to young people who are still in school, individuals who may be retired and still in the workforce, really understanding the demographics.  

And then within those different geographic demographics, understanding the environmental impacts, if you will. Folks may be living adjacent to airports, they may be living adjacent to interstates and highways. Folks may be having some challenges with their water or water main breaks and things of that nature. So when looking at the demographics and the data, of what that's telling you about an agency service area, that'll help both the contractor and the public agency make informed decisions about where their priorities should be in terms of what are you hearing from your constituents or your community meetings about their concerns, their needs, their challenges? Is it jobs?  

Is it again, are they having again challenges with potholes and things of that nature? Is it odor control because they're living adjacent to a water or wastewater treatment plant? Is it noise and air quality because they're living in proximity to an airport? So really leading with data and understanding again, what that data reveals. And from there, essentially the third recommendation would be to utilize the information that you glean from that data.  

I also wanna mention in that data kind of assessment, that local assessment. Also, disparity studies. You mentioned that we certainly have had programs for minority-owned businesses, women-owned businesses, disadvantaged veterans, et cetera, but we do have a ways to go in maximizing those programs. So I also wanna mention in that data approach, disparity studies in terms of, if we look at many of our cities and agencies, a lot of the goals, if you will, that we have in supplier diversity, if we look a lot of them were not necessarily rooted in real data.  

So taking the time, there's several agencies and cities who are taking the time to do disparity studies, to really make a real assessment of what is available in their essentially in their service area, who's available, who has the expertise, who has the ability, if you will, in terms of the supplier community to help them, and then essentially making goals based upon what that data revealed. So I'll stop there. I know I mentioned the third, happy to share there, but I don't wanna belabor the point, but essentially I think if you lead with data and understand what the community is experiencing and what that agency is prioritizing as an organization, I think that's a great start to really get to the next step. 

Mary Scott Nabers (13:16)  

Marshall, I'm gonna give it back to you in just a half a second here, because I know we've monopolized it, and I wanna get you in on this. But let me say one other thing. One other piece of advice that I normally give that I think is important for everybody who might be listening to this to know, is that every city, county, state agency, even a university or a college, or even special districts, they do have someone in that public entity who is responsible for small and minority business assistance. And so it's always possible to call that office and simply ask. Many cities and counties give extra points on every solicitation if you have local subcontractors. So those are the types of things that you can ask that I think are really important. 

I want to point that out and then the last piece of advice I would give is this. Every public entity also has a public information officer and you can simply call that person and say I need help. I am someone who is about to bid on something in your area and you're going to be an important player and let me ask some questions and there should be enough transparency for you to get answers. 

Marshall, back to you. 

Marshall Macomber (15:02) 

Well, Victoria, I want to maybe summarize a little bit of what we've talked about here so far. And I want to see if I'm saying this correctly. When we talk about equity, we've got the role of the contractor, the small, medium, minority-owned, woman-owned, disadvantaged, veteran-owned contractor who is working with the government to achieve whatever particular contract or solution that the government's contracting with. But I think when equity is becoming a much larger discussion, if I'm hearing you right. 

It's the firms working with government and trying to increase the number of small disadvantage minority owned women owned firms that are working with government. But it's the actual investments goes back to almost our equity conversation earlier, the finance, the funding itself, increasing the size and the range and scope and reach of those investments to reach the community itself and then to actually talk to the people who are going to benefit from those investments. Do I get the reach there of our topic today? 

Victoria Johnson (16:02) 

Yes, you're absolutely right, Marshall. We are really talking about developing multi-benefit solutions that benefit not only, again, the hard infrastructure that essentially that we, of course, are committed to doing, but really looking at public agencies to serve as anchor institutions to essentially address many of the needs and challenges of our service, of the areas that they serve, and we can do that through infrastructure in terms of unemployment, workforce. We know that we have a silver tsunami among us with baby boomers retiring significantly in the next several years. Institutional knowledge transfer to a younger, more diverse generation of infrastructure professionals, both on the public sector side, as well as the private sector side. 

So essentially, Marshall, to your point, we're talking about comprehensive, multi-benefit solutions that we can achieve that are more people-centered. There's a term we like to refer to in terms of people-centered infrastructure, in terms of addressing the fact that as we address our roads, bridges, our water, and we work with essentially our subject matter experts and our architects and designers and engineers to essentially prioritize the technical expertise that's necessary. I think we've forgotten that we are doing this because people need these assets in order to live. Infrastructure touches every aspect of our life. We all need water. We all need a road to get to work or to walk our kids or walk our dogs. 

So essentially I think with the conversation that we're having, we're really centering people and understanding that through infrastructure, in addition to addressing, again, the hard infrastructure, we can also do a better job of ensuring that we're addressing the needs and challenges and barriers that many of our communities and our ratepayers have been facing. 

Marshall Macomber (18:09) 

One more quick question, then I'll go back to Mary here. Victoria, you and I were both at the US Conference of Mayors winter meeting recently in DC. And one of the messages I took from that gathering was the importance, and this is from the federal officials there, of partnership, collaboration with communities. When you are working to go after these federal grants that Mary was just talking about, Infrastructure Investment Jobs Act, BIL, IRA, CHIPS, you've got to work with the communities and build a group of applicants, almost a coalition. 

Is that what federal, the federal government is looking for these days? And is that what contractors should think more about versus that just going it alone? 

Victoria Johnson (18:54) 

Absolutely, you're absolutely right Marshall. Partnerships is critical in this work. And essentially as we look to do what I like to call really transition from transactional relationships with the public sector into more transformational relationships, fully encourage contractors, private sector firms, minority women-owned businesses to really approach the work through strategic partnerships. 

To your point, there are other adjacent partners as we work to build an ecosystem to essentially deliver projects and capital plans and capital. Pardon me. Yes, capital plans. Forgive me. Essentially, for an agency, as you have other partners that we haven't tapped, you have a community based organizations. Every agency has a slew of community based organizations that have relationships with their residents and who are who are the vocal voices, if you will, of their concerns and their needs. So community-based organizations we can partner with. Also, you have philanthropic organizations we can partner with.  

As you know, there are a lot of the federal funds that you reference. There's also philanthropic partners who are also offering grant opportunities and other funding to also fund these efforts. And there's also other community entities, our schools, our schools. You have faith-based organizations like churches. You have reentry organizations that are focused on ensuring that second chance citizens have an opportunity to reenter the workforce. You have entities that are also working with homelessness. I'm from Southern California, grew up in Orange County, and we know homelessness is certainly a priority for Mayor Bass, who was also with us there at the U.S. Conference of Mayors last week. Homelessness is a critical issue, as well as in Seattle and New York and other major cities and others throughout our country. 

So I say that to say we should certainly be leaning into strategic partnerships with a variety of entities, if you will, who can help us deliver projects and capital plans in a way that help us achieve these multi-benefit solutions. And I'll close by saying many communities have developed solutions that really just need to be scaled Marshall. 

There's a term called co-designing in terms of as we serve as architects, designers and engineers, we're partnering with local, pardon me, communities who have solutions, if you will, and working with them to not only get the feedback, typically what we've done historically is we get feedback and it's much too late to react to the feedback or incorporate the feedback. So really including communities much earlier in the planning process and that project life cycle and engaging them in co-designing a project or co-designing an approach and also leveraging their expertise that they have there in their community. And that's essentially that comprehensive, multi-benefit ecosystem that we can develop that will get us to the type of outcomes that we're talking about. 

Marshall Macomber (22:04) 

Mary, strategic partnerships, sounds familiar. 

Mary Scott Nabers (22:07) 

Well, I know we are getting really close to closing time here, so and maybe this is a good thing to leave with. Public officials all over the United States are submitting applications for all of this federal funding that we've been talking about. And between now and 2026, there's still trillions of dollars that will be flowing out and most of that money will be going to the applicants of successful grant proposals that they send in. So what we've just talked about, my best advice would be this, if you are sending in a grant application, cover diversity, equity, and inclusion. 

Because the ones that we look at that are getting the big money all point out in that grant application, here's what it will do for this community. Here's what it will do for equity. Here's groups we're including, just like Victoria talked about. That is a key to success in getting that federal funding for these projects. So thanks so much, Victoria, for giving us a good overview there. And Marshall, I know with you in DC, I know you hear and you see this all the time. So good to have this conversation. 

Marshall Macomber (23:32) 

It is. It's an amazing time, a transformational time in public infrastructure. Incredibly exciting time. Victoria, any closing comments for us today? 

Victoria Johnson (23:41) 

Yes, I would just like to thank you both Mary and Marshall for having me. To your point Marshall. Marshall, we are in transformational times and as Mary shared as we continue to pursue federal funding and grant support for these efforts, we have a great opportunity to essentially develop multi-benefit solutions to how we deliver projects and do so in a way that's people-centered, that's data-focused and in a way that can really help us develop outcomes that will benefit us now and for years to come. So I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to this important chat. 

Marshall Macomber (24:19) 

Thanks Victoria, appreciate you joining us today. Thanks everybody for joining us on the Connection Day. We'll see you soon.