Episode 21: A Future-Proof Resilience Masterclass with Anji Hallewell

In this episode of Resilience with Dhruti Shah, we sit down with Anji Hallewell, an award-winning Career Coach who helps established professionals in their 40s and 50s achieve greater success and fulfilment in the second phase of their careers. With 20 years of experience in talent development, and a background as a recruiter and HR Business Partner in the media industry, Anji has worked with thousands across 4 continents and 19 countries to maximize their potential, happiness, and fulfilment.

We explore how to stay resilient in an era of AI disruption and constant change. From Anji’s “Princess and the Pea” analogy about listening to our inner niggle, to navigating identity shifts, regulating emotions, and embracing continuous evolution, this conversation offers practical wisdom for anyone considering a career pivot.

Through coaching, training, and mentorship, Anji’s mission is clear: to ensure the best is yet to come. In this episode, she shows us how aligning our zone of genius to meaningful, purpose-led work can help us rise to new heights both personally and professionally.

Tune in now, reflect on your own journey!

Write to us at podcast@c2cod.com and tell us what you thought about this episode.

Brought to you by the team at C2C Organizational Development, a firm that supports companies in bringing people and strategy together.

Transcript

 Hey Anji, welcome to Resilience with Dhruti Shah. It is such a pleasure to have you here today. Thank you.

So let's just start with your story, Anji. You help people navigate career pivots, but you are also in the middle of your own pivot right now. What is driving this transition? How ironic, right? Right? Yes, well, you know, aren't we always pivoting and evolving? Otherwise, we're just staying in the same place.

But you only have to look over the last four to five years. We saw what was happening just after the pandemic with the economy really affecting what workplaces look like. So there was a lot of displacement of people on the back of that.

But that displacement hasn't stopped. It's continued. And it's not economically driven right now.

It's actually more about the AI disruption. Companies are not necessarily always replacing people, people are still being replaced through automation, some roles. So there's this rate that is happening of acceleration with AI and technology disruption in the workplace.

And I really, I generally have a concern that people just don't know what's coming. They're not prepared for it. It's happening so quickly.

And I've seen firsthand, I've seen what a product of having your the rug pulled out from underneath you really like and how disrupted that is to your morale, your earnings, your happiness, your fulfillment, your whole identity. And I feel very strongly that I just don't want people to be in that situation. And I guess I'm pivoting into not just about career clarity of helping people get clear, get noticed, get hired, but also be ready for the future.

Yeah, absolutely. Be future ready in that sense, right? And as you were talking about it, right, when we think about displacement, when we think about destruction, I think it is a way of taking new shapes and forms. It's just always there, isn't it? Yeah, for sure.

I guess it happens at different speeds, perhaps. Yeah, right. It's just kind of part of life.

Maybe we just notice it more at some points than others. Yeah. Before we take a deep dive, Anji, you know, paint us a picture.

What does a typical client look like when they first come to you? Like, what is that moment of realization that makes someone say that I need to pivot? And you kind alluded to that as you were talking about your own transition journey. Yeah. So I guess it was me 12 years ago.

That's what the typical client looks like when they come to me. And the best analogy that I can really give this is what I coin as, you can't look this up. It's not a psychology term, although it sounds like it.

It's something that I've coined, which is the princess and the pea syndrome. And we all know the story of the princess and the pea. I'm sure that you read this as a child, maybe even read it to your children or have done.

And of course, how does the story go? Well, the princess feels this niggle. She can't sleep. There's just this niggle very quietly in the background.

And I think it's similar when we're in our careers, knowing that there is something that needs to change, but we just don't know what it is. So this kind of niggle that we feel. And of course, the story goes that you're layering, layering, layering on different mattresses to try and get rid of this niggling feeling.

Mattress one is that you brush it off. Oh, it's just a maze. I'm just being silly.

Mattress two is that we might start to distract ourselves with Netflix and zoning out or doom scrolling. I'm sure we try to switch off from this niggle that we're starting to notice and to realize because we don't know what to do about it or what it is. The third mattress is that we take a deeper dive into maybe self-improvement or how to improve your career.

And you can get lost in courses and upgrading and upskilling and Google searches and now AI chats. And more often than not, by the time people come to me, they've done all of these things and they're more confused than where they were when they started. So adding more mattresses isn't the answer.

So I guess, you know, what is the tipping point for people when they typically come to me? Well, they start, they recognize that they're just adding on all these different mattresses and they need to deal with the niggle. They've got to deal with the pee. Yeah.

I love that example that you shared. I think that's a great analogy. And it's just about sensing that something is not right.

And are we listening and acknowledging to the signals that our body is sending? And I think there is sometimes a physiological response to this as well. I don't know if your clients have experienced something like that, but you know, something just doesn't sit right and your body is in turmoil as it thinks about it. So there's also something vulnerable about coming to you as a client and saying that I need to change.

And a lot of times, a lot of us say that maybe I should just stick with what's working. How do you kind of unlayer the mattresses that have been piled up over a period of time, sometimes years, right? Oh my goodness. Yeah.

You know, it's, I always ask people this question when they come to me, like, how long have you been thinking about this? How long have you been aware of this? Because I know from my own experience, it took me seven years. I was in this like limbo, a little bit of a niggle going on, a little bit lost, not really knowing what to do about it. I just had no idea of what else existed outside of what I knew, right? So I always ask this question, and it's not uncommon that people like seven years, eight years, 10 years of having this kind of sense that they're just not on the right track.

But it feels like such a shift to change, almost impossible in some ways to some people, that it could be really challenging. And of course, that inner critic, it will flare up. You know, if your inner critic's ever going to flare up, it's going to be a time where you're starting to think bigger, and to think about being, you know, a bit of a, activating some change in your life.

So that inner critic's going to really be flaring up at that stage. And I don't think it's so much like maybe I should stick with what's working, because let's face it, what they're doing right now actually isn't working for them, because they wouldn't have this feeling, right? I think it's more about sticking with the status quo, it's better the devil you know. And you know, that saying can, even just thinking that can just really, really keep us stuck in the very space that we want to get out of.

So I think the real key thing here, that really everything has to center around no matter what we want to do, no matter how big we want to dream, no matter what our ambition is, if we aspire to evolve, if we aspire to do bigger and better things out there in the world, albeit in their career, which of course is the bit that I focus on, we've got to really know what our mission is, and what our genius is, what our unique potential is. Because the moment that we really start to understand who we are, and what it is that we can really bring, because we have our own potential, our own genius that we can actually, you know, bring to this world, then it just makes it so much easier to then start to listen to that. So I think really step one is really starting to regulate that inner critic, so that you can be in a bit more of a grounded headspace, so that you can, something that you mentioned earlier, Druti, so you can kind of, you can listen to this little whisper of how you're being guided and what it is that you really want from, you know, that kind of inner voice, that authentic inner voice.

Because it's very noisy in this world, and listen, and be in a grounded headspace to do that, then we always feel like we're just, you know, going off in the wrong direction. Yeah, and I think the noise is everywhere, isn't it? There is the internal dialogue, there is the external noise, and as you said, you know, the doom scroll, I mean, it's just, we're dealing with so much right now in that sense. So have there been situations, or maybe if you can share an example, if possible, where somebody started pivoting, we're in the right direction, and then the inner critic kind of takes over, and they make a u-turn.

Has anything like that ever surfaced in your journey as a career coach? Yeah, you know, we're dealing with human behavior, and as much as we would love to think that we can, you know, have a couple of conversations, and we discover these good things, and sights on it, and then easy-peasy, off we go, but there is a side of us in our comfort zone that will really feel challenged. There's one thing to think something, and to decide to do something, and it's very different to then take action on that, and that's where the challenges come in. And this is why, you know, there has to be a certain amount of embedding that needs to happen, because there's actually, do you know what's really happening here, Druti, is that there's a little bit of an identity shift that has to happen.

Think about it. If you ever change anything significantly in your life, there's always a little bit of a transition, an identity change, and shift that has to happen with that. You know, maybe when you become a parent, maybe when you get married, and of course, when you are switching careers, it's no different, it's the same principles underneath it.

And I think what's really important is that we just keep anchoring and focusing on, well, what is authentic to you? What is your zone of genius? And if we're aligning things congruently in accordance to that, it will always be true for you, yeah? The rest of it is really just about courage. The rest of it is just a little bit of a bumpy ride that goes along the way, but we just need to keep bringing it back. When people have self-doubt, because it's going to happen, it's almost like, let's just have a given.

Let's just say it's a given. There's going to be turbulence on the journey, yeah? But these are opportunities to recognize how you get in your own way. These are opportunities for you to recognize where the growth areas are.

These are opportunities for you to just take action, despite feeling a little bit scared, a little bit fearful, maybe even a little bit anxious, and do it anyway, because then you can activate the courage that we all have. And then, of course, you can achieve, ultimately, what it is that you're going for. So, yeah, at some point of the journey, there might be, I call it a wobble.

There's probably going to be a wobble, but it's okay, because that is just telling us that you're bumping up against your comfort zone, and it's a sign of growth. So I love that when it happens. They don't like it.

That is so true. That is so true, because everything, it's like, you know, when you're working out, and you pick up a dumbbell, which is way beyond what you're used to, it's going to feel uncomfortable. Exactly.

You might even think, why am I, maybe, maybe I'll just drop it down, you know, a couple of kgs. You start to compromise with yourself, right? And that's really telling of how you speak to yourself, how you actually think, and what you believe is possible. So, you know, how we show up in one place is how we show up in every scenario, it's the same behavior playing out.

So for me, as a coach, I love those scenarios, because it's such a great learning opportunity for people to evolve and to grow, which is ultimately why they're even in front of me in the first place, because they have a desire to do that. Absolutely. And as long as it is aligned with your values, and you're ready to put in the hard work, and you are being bold and courageous about it, I think then there is no stopping you.

So, so let's take a quick look at one of my favorite topics, and also a lot of people think about it otherwise, purpose, right? And I think if you look at modern literature, there's a lot of focus on that from a psychological perspective. And a lot of people then, they feel the pressure to find that, you know, one true calling. So how do you approach this with your clients who feel overwhelmed by that expectation? Because not everybody has it all figured out, you know, we figure out along the way.

And how do you go about that? I'm just curious. Yeah, and you're right, the pressure that can come with that, you know, when we think about, I want to know what my purpose is, it can feel so big. And like you say, overwhelmingly big.

And I think at some point, we've got to just release the grip a little bit of that big, bigness of this feeling, feeling of it feels big, because what are we saying, we're kind of saying, it feels unattainable. It's almost what we're kind of saying. And rather than focusing on whether it feels big, where it feels small, and not, it's not about the scale, it really comes down to three things.

If you understand who you uniquely are, so you understand your genes. So for me, my zone of genius is very much about helping people stay calm, people say that I have calming influence on them, it's always been the case. So that's part of my genius, part of what I do as a coach.

So it's about calmness, optimism, and helping people, you know, shift into a more positive space. So that's my uniqueness, and everyone else will have their own uniqueness. So that's the genius.

And then, of course, having you translate that into what you do professionally, but not just what do I do as the job, but I like to think of it as like a professional purpose. I think we can have different layers of purpose. Yeah, that that broader topic, maybe that's something for Jay Shetty.

You know, I like to kind of break it down into smaller chunks. And we know that we work better, just a human mind just works better when we're able to chunk things down into more bite sized pieces. So you might have a different purpose in your family life, you might have a different purpose in your relationships, you might have a different purpose when you're at work.

And that's the thing I focus on. So you know, what does that actually translate to? What is the professional purpose that is in alignment with who you really are and your your uniqueness? Now, for me, it's about bringing harmony into people's careers. That's what I choose to do is in line here, that's in line of, of my genius.

And then I think the bit that changes, I don't think those things will change. But the bit that does change is the mission and the quest that you choose to go off on to feed that there are many different things that I could be doing to bring harmony in people's worlds and in people's lives. In fact, when I first started out, the way that I was actually feeding that professional purpose was actually teaching professionals mindfulness, so that they could, you know, stop being so stressed out and starting to calm to calm down and see the wood from the tree that started to migrate.

And then it went into finding your career clarity, which is still to an extent what I'm doing now. And then it started to evolve now in this transition I'm going through right now, really about supporting people through the era of tech and AI disruption to the workforce. So I think your mission is also much that your purpose changes or who you are fundamentally changes, but I do think your mission can change in alignment.

But as many different ways that you can play something out that will be in alignment with those things. So rather than getting so hung up about this one big thing, I think just know who you are, know what your uniqueness is, understand how that translates in terms of what your professional purpose is, and know that along the way, it might evolve a little bit in the way that you actually choose to deliver that in your mission request. Yeah.

No, that's brilliant, Anji, because even in the work that I do, or sometimes I get this question, can my purpose change? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I think what is one of the things that wouldn't change is maybe your value system, right? Your values don't change over a period of time, but your purpose can very well change. And that's all right.

I think you're absolutely right. One is this whole, the bigness of it. Oh, my God, it's bigger than being so huge.

I don't know if I can ever do it, you know that. And the second is the sense of permanence, you know, that we attach to it, and we feel like we're lacking focus if we have to change our purpose. Well, guess what? You are on your own journey, and that's all right.

If you're going to change it, you're going to change it, isn't it? Yeah, exactly. I always say to people, no one's standing there with a school board. Yeah, exactly.

Only you are. She's now doing this. That is so true.

So I think, yeah, get rid of the pressure that you put on yourself, right? Yeah, and it is on ourselves that we put it, right? Exactly. So true. So have you ever had a client whose sense of purpose completely shifted during your work together? Yeah, you know, most people come in, and they have no idea what their purpose is.

They have no idea who they are. And that's exactly what it strips, it boils down to. You know, purpose, like I say, is kind of a combination of different things, your uniqueness, the domain that you want to be attaching it to, and the way that you deliver it.

The mission and quest that you're on. And a lot of people have no idea. It feels like a very big question for them.

And it's difficult to answer it yourself. It's difficult to ask AI if you don't know what it is you're looking for, right? So yeah, I'd say there's always a big shift, you know. And actually, what's interesting is that I've actually seen people sort of twist and pivot, even beyond working with me, because it started to, maybe started to evolve a little for them as momentum takes place.

So I guess really, I'm kind of like the kickstarter. I'm getting them on the right path, I'm getting them on the right course. And then they can start to kind of feel their way into what's next for them beyond that, because they've got the mentality, the mindset, and they've got the tools and frameworks to be able to do that.

I think the biggest, the biggest, there's two that I would use as like great examples. My toughest one, and it was tough because she had worked in a laboratory her entire life. She was a scientist with stethoscopes and a lab coat.

And she didn't know the corporate world. So if you work as a scientist, you don't know anything else. It's a very different world.

And I've always worked with people in MMCs. This was this new terrain to me. And we started to map out what her genius was and what that could look like in terms of her professional purpose.

And we came up with some quite wacky ideas. I mean, one of them was to be maybe a content creator of being like the crazy scientist. The other one was a comedian.

So these are like vastly different, right? And she ended up on something a little bit different, which I'll show you in a moment. But all of them came back to this focus point of what is my uniqueness? And how can I bring that into the world? So it has that kind of connection internally first, because she's got to connect internally with you. It's got to resonate.

Otherwise, it's never going to happen. This is pie in the sky. And we don't want that.

And what she actually ended up doing is becoming a positive psychology trainer in corporations. Lab coat, maybe a crazy scientist, content creator, maybe a comedian ended up positive psychology trainer within the corporate world. And the other example, which I think is great, just kind of to listen to this, so many people are generally curious, because we're curious about what it could be for us.

And I think when we hear about other people's journeys, then it's kind of like, Oh, well, maybe something like that is possible for me as well. Like I say, I'm a little bit of like the kickstarter at the beginning of the process. And I've worked with a lovely lady who works in procurement.

And her zone of genius was all around unity, working together and achieving great things. So there's a real camaraderie of her really being like the rally person to pull people together and get great results. And she actually became a football coach.

So she went for procurement in the court in technology on the on the as a voluntary redundancy. Then she went to be a football coach, and they they won a round, but she took them to championships, and they won awards, they won medals for it. And now she's a management consultant, like to work in the gig economy.

But it all they sound different, but they all have a common thread. They're all about doing great work by pulling people together. Yeah.

Yeah, that was fascinating. Thank you for sharing that, Anji. I think I'm having some reflections right now, as I hear it, and I'm sure you've had your own moments of reflection as you're working with your clients as well.

But you know, during one of our conversations, you also mentioned that when we think about folks who are either first time managers or who are new in the leadership journey, there often comes a tipping point in terms of stress. Yeah. We see that a lot of people, they, they take stress and make it work for them.

And, you know, they just propel forward. And there are some who take stress and that strength literally drags them down. How does this show up typically in the work that you do as well? Yeah, you know, it's so funny, because all of us want to perform at a high standard.

We want that we want things to be feel like there's some ease and flow to it as well. Yeah. But of course, when you're starting to get into leadership roles, now you have joined the elite club.

It's like going from just kicking a football around for fun with your mates after work, to suddenly join in like an academy of one of the main football clubs of Man United or something. No one's throwing anything at the screen right now. If you're not a Man U fan, I'm not sharing anything.

I don't support any team. Just an example. That's what I thought.

And suddenly, you've now joined that the elite club, and it's going to naturally be some pressure that comes in there. And I think the one thing that kind of cuts away the people that can really thrive in that, in that environment, which is kind of what you're you're asking here is not the fact that they don't feel pressure. Yes, they do.

Now I work with managing partners of law firms, some of the top consultancies, they feel the pressure, don't get me wrong, there is imposter syndrome, there is pressures, all kinds of things going on, because the scale and magnitude of what they're responsible for, and the level of expectation of them is very high, because now you are the elite of the elite. But it's not so much about whether the pressure is there or not, or trying to get rid of the pressure is about how can you easily regulate your emotional competence, so that that is not dragging you down for too long. So in other words, feel the pressure, but bounce back quickly.

And it is that ability to bounce back quickly, let go of that pressure and be able to bounce back that really cuts away those high performers that just you look at them, you're like, God, how can you how can you do all that? How can you do all those things? They're not smarter, they don't know anything drastically different to the else, they just have the ability to bounce back quicker of the of the psychology in their own mind that might start to tell them that they feel stressed, or they shouldn't do this and all those doubts that start to kick in. Yeah, and that's the definition of resilience, if you think about it, right. And I think the leaders that are able to get to a certain point are there because they are tuned in, they know what they're feeling, they're acknowledging that and moving on.

So I think there is a entire layer of emotional intelligence as well, we think about it. And hence, I think this, yeah, right. And I think that's why there's a whole group of people that say that you have to have EQ over IQ, right, in that sense, extremely important, because that's what's going to help you to get from point A to point B, all the way to where you need to be, right? Absolutely.

And talking about resilience, you know, is there a resilience strategy that you have practiced, which sounded simple, but yeah, this is so easy to do? Or maybe, you know, your clients have spoken about that, but it's actually really difficult to achieve or to practice? Absolutely. I got this from one of my speaking mentors many years ago. And I wanted to speak more, I wanted to become a better speaker, I wanted to be on bigger stages, you know, all these things.

And you just, you know, swap out speaking for whatever it is that you're trying to achieve right now. I want more visibility, I want a higher paid role, I want more responsibility, whatever it is. And he said to me this, he said, if you want to be a better speaker, then you need to be speaking more.

So in other words, the thing that we want, we need to put ourselves in situations where we're able to do more of that thing. But here's the here's the double edged sword of human behavior is that if it feels uncomfortable, just thinking about being in that situation, we are going to be very resistant and very reluctant to actually put ourselves in those situations to be able to gain more comfort, more stability, more experience with the very thing that we want to become and do more of. So that's one of those things that it sounds simple.

So oh, yeah, well, if I want to be more visible in the organization, then I'll just put myself in situations where I become more visible to senior stakeholders. But guess what, there's going to be a little voice in your head that's going to go, well, who are you? What are they going to think about you, you don't know anything, you're not a manager, you're not this job title, or whatever it is. Maybe something there that pay attention to those voices, because that's the very thing that you've got to push through to actually activate the very thing that you want.

Because on the other side of that self doubt on the other side of that self talk is the achievement that you actually want to be going for. Yeah, and that inner dialogue, where we started our conversation today is what really kicks in, right? Because, and I think that's the part where you need to work on a little bit and say that it's as simple as this, right? You may have a self limiting belief that will tell you, I'm not good at making presentation, a self limiting belief could then be, I am good at making presentations. Sounds simple, very difficult to implement, right? But I think it all starts with that inner dialogue with the belief system that you build for yourself.

Yeah, we take action in accordance with how we see ourselves. Yeah. So we have to change how we see ourselves if we are going to evolve past who we are today.

And that is challenging. That's why people need coaches and mentors and people that have been through that journey, because it almost part of it is not just the guidance, but also go, well, if they can do it, then maybe I can too. Just a little bit of a shift there of what's possible in belief, self belief.

Absolutely. And to your point, when you were talking about purpose, yeah, you mentioned that it's important that we don't look at this one big giant staring into our eyes, but rather into smaller parts. So in taking your example, if you're thinking about becoming a speaker, you don't want to be a speaker who is speaking in front of 10,000 people in the first gig.

You're not going to get there. It's not that easy. Yeah, we wouldn't be ready for it.

The highly likely it would be a complete train smash because you're just not ready for it. There you go. Yeah.

And so breaking it down, starting with small digestible bites, and then going for that bigger goal. I think that's the way to go. Thank you for sharing that.

We can be a bit impatient, can't we? There's a side of us that gets impatient. I just want this. I just want to get there.

It's like, well, slow down a little bit, right? It's amazing that you have that aspiration. It's wonderful that you have that ambition. Maybe there's a little bit of a journey to unfold for you to grow, to mature, so that you're ready for that.

Yeah, that's exciting. Absolutely. Absolutely.

So if there is one advice, or let's think about it in terms of investments, what are the best investments that someone can make in their future resilience to build the resilience, both personally and professionally? What do you think that is? I think there's, there's two things that have personally really changed things for me, and if for anyone that's actually wanting to play that bigger game.

These two things are super important, otherwise it's just never gonna happen. And no surprises that they're mindset focused. So one of them we touched on earlier, we touched on the regulation of emotions. If we wanted to do something and maybe we're a bit excited about it, and then the next day we wake up and now we've got a nagging self-doubt about it, and it doesn't happen, I'm gonna, I'm gonna tell my boss I wanna pay rise.

Yep. I've, I've done this, I've done that. I've got everything ready. Right? Tomorrow morning I'm gonna go in, I'm gonna tell him, and then tomorrow morning comes. Mm-hmm. Oh, maybe I'll just wait. Or maybe this week's too busy. Maybe I'm gonna catch him at the wrong time. And then we start to do themselves out of it.

So what's stopping that there's some kind of emotional change that has happened to now affect your better judgment. Mm-hmm. So that ability to know what to listen to, what not to listen to, and be able to just to regulate those disruptive emo emotions that don't help us move forward in the, in, in our authentic selves.

Um, that's a real game changer for me to really be able to be grounded and listen to what it is that I knew was the right thing to be doing. Not always easy. But it was the right thing, the right choice to be making for myself. So that's number one. I would definitely say to invest in able to manage and regulate your own emotions.

Yeah. And the second one. Kind of comes into this identity piece that I was talking about earlier. Now, I was saying earlier that if we ever wanna play a bigger game, then we have to be a bigger version of ourselves. So we actually have to become a slightly different person. Now, you're still the same person underneath it all, but we are expand and evolving that you're actually a like a 2.0 version of yourself.

And for us to be able to do that, yes, there's all the self-belief and all that stuff, but something very specific that I'd actually don't hear people. Talking about it too much, but I saw it very, it's very prevalent in the work that I'm doing, which is the ability to be able to, um, not feel overly attached to things.

Now, in this instance, when we're talking about careers not feel overly attached to the job and the, the title that you do and. The example here that comes to mind. I used to work with a lawyer, and of course you studied for years when you were a lawyer. It's very much part of your personality. You've been like a doctor, you've been doing it for years.

That's what you studied to be. And your parents have like, you know, shoved you down that path and it's been like, it's been drilled into your mind. I'm a doctor, I'm a, I'm a lawyer in this, in this case it was that. And, but he also had artistic flare. But these two worlds felt like completely different paths.

He just could not see himself in any other way than being a lawyer. His professional training, what he's invested money and time and energy into doing, and we had to really just detach from him being any particular one thing, just rip off that label of being a lawyer. And maybe try on a few other labels.

And it is the ability to be able to strip away and wear different hats and different labels that actually enables you to not be overly focused on one fixed identity. And, um, that, that, that's the second thing that I think is really important for people that really wanna play a bigger game to, um, to work on, in, in themselves, not be overly attached to the.

Title, the job title in particular that they have. Yeah, absolutely. You do are right. Yeah. Oh, totally. And it is so important that you, you maintain a sense of detachment in everything that you do and the other. Thought that got planted in my head and I'd heard it somewhere, is that you become more of an and rather than a or you don't have to be one over the other.

Yeah. You can be more than that one identity that you've decided to box yourself into. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Um, so, so, you know, sometimes I introduce myself. I'm more like, yeah, I'm tr I am, I'm a working professional and I'm a mother. I, I, I'm a daughter-in-law. I play that role. I'm a spouse and, uh, you know, a daughter and all of that.

Yeah. So, and, and if we are able to say this for our whole lives, you know, personal and professional, what's stopping us? From saying that professionally as well, that I'm a lawyer and I'm an artist, and what a brilliant combination that is. Yeah, exactly. And he is a brilliant artist. Yeah. Up his own online shop and is selling his wares.

There you go. Which is great. And uh, you know, it's just that, um. One of the, one of the things I think really challenges people to really pivot and start to change things in, in their career in particular is the fear, isn't it? There's a fear. Oh yeah. What if it doesn't work out? It's the fear of failure and also the fear of judgment for other people, they know you as one thing and now all of a sudden you're gonna be this other thing.

Yeah, well, what are they gonna think about it? And I think when you are able to just detach a little bit. From being any one thing, any one identity, any one label, because it's the job that you do, not who you are. It actually, your relationship with failure actually really drastically changes. It, it becomes more of a, not about succeeding and failing as in like this sort of black and white kind of, kind of, um, contrast, but actually more about, I'm exploring, I'm experimenting.

It's very different language. It has a very different feel. Just think about how much more encouraging it would be for people to maybe start to dip their toe in a different pond. Yeah. You know, for, to take their career in a slightly different direction. If they felt that it was more about just testing the water, experimenting, exploring, rather than, well if this doesn't work, I failed.

Mm-hmm. Very different. Absolutely. And um, Anji, it's been great speaking to you. I mean, right from, you know, pivoting to talking about your purpose to stress burnout, right? So we talked about that, uh, and we love the points that you made around emotional regulation. So having that kind of agility and you know, serving yourself a story that works for you rather than detto you from moving forward, I think, uh, it's been a masterclass in resilience in itself, so bless you.

Thank you, Anji, it is been an absolute pleasure and I hope to have you again on the podcast sometime soon. Thank you. Thanks Judy. Thanks.