This week on the anxious truth, we're talking about the intersection between anxiety anxiety disorders and neuro divergence issues like ADHD or autism spectrum disorder. So let's get to it Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the podcast. Welcome to Episode 277 of the anxious truth even though I made a mistake during the interview that you'll hear later and call the 276 it's not this is episode 277 of the anxious truth. Welcome. I am Drew Linsalata, creator and host of this fine podcast and YouTube channel if you're watching on YouTube, Hey, YouTube. This week, we're talking about the intersection between anxiety anxiety disorders and neuro divergence issues like ADHD or autism spectrum disorder, I have a special guest on this week, who is pretty experienced with this well trained in this and I trust to talk about it. It's a question that I get asked all the time I have ADHD or I am on the autism spectrum. And I don't know what it means for my anxiety or my anxiety recovery. Can I still get better? Can I use these principles? Does this method air quotes work for me? So I have Dr. Terry Bacau. With me today, she's a clinical psychologist based here in New York in New York City not too far from me. Again, she takes a clinical a she takes a CBT approach to anxiety and anxiety disorders. So what she says will sound very familiar. But she also has a particular interest in neuro divergent issues. And she's rubbed elbows with a lot of people who are very well versed in those issues, very well respected in that community and published a lot of really good work in that community. So when it came time to actually address this and answer some of those questions, Terry seemed like the obvious choice to me. So we have her on this week. And before we get into that, just a quick reminder, as always, every week, the anxious truth is more than just this podcast episode or this YouTube channel. There are 276 other videos and podcast episodes that came before this. There are books that I've written on anxiety and anxiety disorders, there are very low cost, I think, pretty affordable workshops and courses, there's the podcast interview with Josh Fletcher called disordered, all of those things can be found on my website at the anxious truth.com. So if you're looking for more than just this particular video, or you want to know more about this approach to anxiety and anxiety disorders, go to the anxious truth.com Check it out, avail yourself of everything that's there. People tell me it's helpful. So I'd like to think that it is pretty proud of all that work. And I appreciate the support that all of you have shown me over the years in producing network. So go check it out. Let's get to it. In this episode, again, I kind of messed up, I said that it was episode 276. It's not 277. So if you want to get to the show notes for this episode, it's the anxious truth.com/ 277. But the interview with Dr. Macao was really great. We went for about 25 minutes, it is jam packed full of great information from a great source reputable that I trust. So I think you guys are going to enjoy it. Whether or not you are dealing with neurodivergent issues for yourself or a loved one, or you're just interested in the topic. She was really great. I'm definitely going to have her back for sure in the future to talk more about this stuff. So let's get to it. And then at the end, I will come back for a wrap up. As usual. Hope you enjoy it. Let's get to it. Hello, Terry. Welcome. Thanks for coming.
Dr Terri Bacow:Thank you for having me.
Drew Linsalata:You're very welcome. It's taken us a while to get together to do this. But here we are. And we're going to address a topic that I know I get asked about a lot. And I needed to find somebody that I can trust to talk about this. And you wrote that really most excellent article with as ADHD focused. And I thought and I'll put this all in the show notes, by the way, I'll tell you about that later. But I thought if we could talk about that intersection between sort of anxiety recovery and neuro divergence, it would be super helpful. Absolutely. Yeah. In your practice, is this something that you see on a reasonably regular basis? Or once in a while? How common is this intersection? Do you think
Dr Terri Bacow:I see so many clients who have either a primary diagnosis of ADHD ADHD co occurring with an anxiety disorder or condition? And it's incredibly common? I think?
Drew Linsalata:Yeah. What what makes it and the question I get asked all the time, and again, I've always promised to get somebody on who can answer it because I don't feel qualified enough for experienced enough in that area to really address it is where what does it change? So if there is that CO occurrence there, the comorbidity you're dealing with an anxiety disorder and a neuro divergent issue like ADHD? What changes what's different?
Dr Terri Bacow:Well, first of all, I'd like to say the upper that tend to be about 28%. Wow. Yes. Yeah, so it's quite common. It's more common than that to have anxiety cover CO and with ADHD than any other condition and attempt the changes. I mean, I think that the by the effective distinction, that anxiety is Something that, you know, interferes in your daily life. It's really problematic. Sometimes settling well as ADHD is a disorder of executive functioning, which I could talk more about, but tricky about this, that that, folks with ADHD, understandably anxious. Okay, that's to have problems managing time, tattling impulses, keeping track of thick.
Drew Linsalata:So it's already stressful, where you find like, sort of normal life stress anxiety that you would expect.
Dr Terri Bacow:Absolutely. That is that people with ADHD, they have this whole other level of stress, which is keeping, organizing, there'll be huge executive function of what they mean by executive function. I mean, planning and organizing, managing time, you know, keeping me together. That is something that we do every day. So if you have ADHD, it's going to be incredibly stressful. It's going to it's going to add another thrust amongst other semesters. Yeah.
Drew Linsalata:So in a situation where that is, that is what's going on. If we encounter we add that additional stress factor into the, you know, additional demand, if you will, we'll call it demand, you know, so you're under a heavier load anyway. So when you're helping a client like that, and you're creating a treatment plan, and you're helping them address their anxiety disorder, I'm guessing this is a thing we probably need to take into account. Correct? Yes, yeah. So I
Dr Terri Bacow:like to validate for my client. This is something that you're really struggling with top of all the other things that most people struggle with. And it's okay to be stressed by this.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah, that sounds like a very important thing. Because in this community surrounding the podcast, one of the things I hear people do is they get very critical of themselves, regardless of their status as neurotypical or neuro divergence. Why can I get this? And I'm sure you hear this all the time. You know, like, I know what you're saying, especially on maybe your social media content. I see a Yeah, I get it. You know, Dr. Patel, I see what you're saying, but I can't seem to get it. So for somebody who's struggling even a little bit more has an extra layer. Is that a bigger problem.
Dr Terri Bacow:And it's common, so many of my clients with ADHD and anxiety, slacker birth team, and DD, heart and themselves. What I tried to do is provide with that kind of discuss that about the patient information. Explain that neurodivergent brain had different neuroanatomy, that ADHD, it didn't know by Antarctica problem, and how to get behind in this staff for having different violent genetic advantage family. Fast is not the choice, certainly. So I try to be displaying by kind of giving some information about the science.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah. Sometimes the the approach, I've seen your material enough to know that you have that CBT approach to anxiety disorders. And I think that is hard enough for anybody to put their brain around. Wait, I have to go toward what I fear. Like everybody struggles with that concept. So it's normal for anybody to have a hard time understanding or accepting that concept. And I think being nice to yourself, if you struggle, maybe even a little more, because of just the way you're wired. It's just like being left handed or right handed, it's not your choice. So that self compassion element has to be even more important, I'm guessing.
Dr Terri Bacow:100% and self compassion, I'm really glad you use that term science show. The self compassion is some fucked up the self criticism and motivating behavior change.
Drew Linsalata:It's the other way, the more the more critical you are, the worse things are gonna get for you, even though we might think it's the other way. Correct.
Dr Terri Bacow:Exactly. Because you are the most versatile man to cover two minutes in the body. And that productive your day and catch as being kind to yourself, makes people more resilient and enabled them to cope better.
Drew Linsalata:Okay, so if you get into the nitty gritty, and first of all, let's, I know there's going to be a ton of questions here. So how does somebody let's go back to the beginning of this, somebody who may be struggling with an anxiety issue or chronic or disordered anxiety issue that isn't really even sure maybe they haven't been formally diagnosed yet. They suspect that something might be a mess, but they don't really know. Let's start there. What would you do with that client if they walk in?
Dr Terri Bacow:So a client that has excited but it's undiagnosed
Drew Linsalata:undiagnosed, undiagnosed in terms of ADHD or
Dr Terri Bacow:I can't tell you again how common that is. So I spent 10 years looking at a bunch of a patient's clinical, the Halbert center, online doctor that had about 20 books about ADHD, including gravitated to action, delivered satisfaction. And the number of people that we saw that came in at a dose. undiagnosed, is kind of bananas to know the number of folks who needed life, all of a sudden, discovering that I have an ADHD diagnosis, it's common that they would take. So if a client comes into my office, and suspects that they have ADHD, I would recommend it to get evaluated immediately. This is priceless information to have about yourself.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah, it sure would be. And I'm guessing they may struggle even more with like, I can't get this. It's things are different for me. I don't know what's wrong. Yeah, well, nothing's wrong. You're just different. And we need to address that or take that into account. I'm guessing.
Dr Terri Bacow:Yes. I mean, I think that these folks, it's back to something about art or something. Is it the best off? Yeah, one to have the diagnosis that gives an palette? Yeah.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah, that sounds like a really big deal, that evaluation process who's going to do that?
Dr Terri Bacow:So there's a number of different ways, ranging from in a nice expensive to the most, the gold standard would be newest academically testing, which the experts advocate that the data is but then declared a part of a test at the full 15 page report. But if that's cost prohibitive, then it could go to a psychiatrist and have a clinical evaluation. You can also talk to a psychologist, by the way,
Drew Linsalata:yeah, that's to be clear about that. That is not that's a doctoral level psychologist. That is. We always want to give people the right information here. Yeah, let's speak for a second because I know that people are going to need this information. And there's probably people listening right now that have light bulbs going on. Or like I need to look into that. What I want to be really sensitive about this, and I don't want to like badmouth anybody but Terry talked about, you know, a neuropsychological evaluation, a psychiatrist, that's a medical doctor, and a psychologist who has gone through five years and additional advanced training a PhD level person. I hear ADHD specifically talked about in coaching circles and things of that nature. Do you run into a problem where you have people who probably shouldn't be diagnosing this? Trying to do that? Have we seen this? Or?
Dr Terri Bacow:That's, um, so I don't quite encounter anyone who shouldn't be diagnosed the main attendees toxic or bad by those?
Drew Linsalata:Yeah. So in other words, like, you know, well, I have a coach that told me that I have ADHD.
Dr Terri Bacow:Okay, so it depends. Coaching, I will be on it in the world of psychotherapy is an actual thing. But what I mean by that the executive function and coaches by talented that being said, a diagnosis really should not be made by a coach, I think it's suggestion can be made by a coach. Okay. Let's say you should get the check that not absolutely habit, you can't tell someone that has something without them habit? A we're at a standardized clinical assessment, that maybe some questionnaires somebody's waiting for. Yeah.
Drew Linsalata:Very good. Okay. I think that's a great answer. Just to clarify, you know, for people listening, like, where should I go? Who should I listen to, I love how you pointed out the value of the coaching function. Maybe once that diagnosis is there as extra support love it. But in terms of getting the diagnosis, you need to make sure that you go somewhere where that should be diagnosing it. So just something to keep in mind. Yeah, so now that you have the person who you know that this is an issue, there is a diagnosis in place, they're dealing with an anxiety disorder of some kind, where does what changes in terms of the treatment? Anything? And let me explain, um, people will say, you know, they'll say, Well, I they read the books that I write, or they listen to this podcast, or they see people like you on social media, like I hear about accepting and facing and exposures. But I have ADHD. So what's different for me, what do I do differently is what I hear all the time.
Dr Terri Bacow:So what we tend to tend to tip men apart if you have the diagnosis, if you gotta click that button, and really do recommend medications that you took medication, ADHD, the kind of analogy that I'd like to give with my class. And is that stimulant medication. And by that I mean things like we didn't consider by Ben Starclan, etc, sort of like wearing glasses. It could be, it could have blurry vision, it put on the glasses, I'm having the map. And you see, it is much clearer, you can focus, everything comes into focus. So I always do recommend medication to my client. But beyond that, I would recommend CBT cognitive behavior therapy, and possibly executive functioning, coaching, which has suffered from CBT. Although it does have some CBT intervention.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah. But there that's a supplemental thing there that I like the executive function coaching. And I think I love the way you brought medication into this glad the glasses analogy I get if I take these off, I'm done. I can't see anything. Why would I not wear them? So
Dr Terri Bacow:I mean, that's like some client with this idea of medication and have a stigma attached to it.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah. And I think in our community, too, in terms of anxiety disorders, that can be such a divisive thing. You know, I know that there are people that feel like if I'm taking medication to deal with my anxiety, I'm not doing it right, I'm failing. So but if you're medicating the ADHD, you're not failing on the anxiety side, that would be a really harsh thing to say to yourself.
Dr Terri Bacow:100%. And I say the same thing for anxiety. They take a psychiatric medication for anxiety, the cloud, so to speak, anxiety, just add ADHD, neurobiological to that monitor families, and not to Yeah, I do. So back to man. In some cases, I survived. But other type of medication for anxiety, coupled with CBT, clear kind of method show that the bad treatment plan the combination of therapy and medication.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah. And especially if you're dealing with another secondary issue, too, to dig your heels in and say, Well, I'm I'm doing it wrong. If I get Medicaid, it could be really unfair to yourself. Yep. Yeah, that's okay. There's the treatment itself? I mean, I know this is, clearly since we're using more like divergence, everybody's going to be a little different. But does the treatment itself start to change? A little bit? Is it slower? Is it different is it
Dr Terri Bacow:so if somebody comes to me, they have ADHD, or divert him, I might sort of change my approach a little bit to try to simplify things the topic without terms of disclosing them to check. So for example, cognitive behavior, therapy, thoughts, feelings and behaviors, one of the hidden gems of CBT. I think this it may be something that not the examiners, but incredibly potent, is swabs themselves. Okay, when you take a swab from Southbank, it's like, oh, anybody could do that. But DBT therapists do it really bad, they conduct late with the client. Okay, you have the trick, there, you have the challenge. Let's break it down into smaller components, yeah. Attacking that. It's vaping, more didactic in that way, meaning that as a therapist, collaborating with the client to figure out a solution.
Drew Linsalata:I guess that makes sense. Because people sometimes look at it, especially if they've never been in therapy, well, I'm going to have CBT, which is a big, wide, huge umbrella. And each client is going to look a little different neurodivergent or not, it doesn't matter. And so maybe in that situation, if you are a you know, have an ADHD diagnosis, or an autism diagnosis, whatever it happens to be, it just means that the implementation of CBT for you with your therapist is going to be tailored. And for you specific to solve or to address your specific challenges. It doesn't mean you're beyond hope or not, or more broken. I've heard that, can I get better? That's almost
Dr Terri Bacow:that sometimes CBT gets a little bit of a bad bad, because it could be manualized. Sometimes some DBT approaches absorb the back. I applied CBT it's really flexible manner. Like you said, tell her to eat quiet. What did they need, with skills that they benefit from the most?
Drew Linsalata:Yeah, or maybe that manualized treatment? What doesn't work for this particular person? Maybe fact checking worksheets is just not resonating. It's not striking a bell so we're gonna we don't have to use that. Well, we'll work around that if need be. So, yeah, yeah. Okay. So I think again, that's a whole thing or a there's the fear in that community that like, Does this mean that this, this won't work for me? People will ask like, does that mean The things you write about in your books or in your pockets won't work for me. That's, that's incorrect. That doesn't mean that.
Dr Terri Bacow:So I still to that, I will say that I have to admit that I'm biased. But CBT does book books to most people. And certainly it's not for everyone. Some people prefer a more psychoanalytic approach. To know they Berger buttons, and I'm excited to go to CBT. But it's country, a solution focus is action oriented at the Visitor support?
Drew Linsalata:Yeah, yeah, I love it. Let's talk about people get confused sometimes about like CBT is, again, it's a huge umbrella and encompasses a bunch of different types of treatments. More if we're talking and people say, Well, is it old school? CBT? Like with the worksheets and everything? Is it more like act? Is it DBT? What is it? It's all of those things? Correct? Even in the neurodivergent? Community, you're gonna take bits and pieces of other of a bunch of it, I'm guessing.
Dr Terri Bacow:Yes. So I mean, talk about alphabet soup. That's good. That, folks who'd suck that up a bit space? So I please like DBT after CBT love acronyms.
Drew Linsalata:Oh, boy. They're everywhere. I'm a fan. I use them all day long. That's true.
Dr Terri Bacow:That's me, Ben does naming the treatment, but that they have to figure out what are we practicing? What's our theoretical orientation, but it's good, but two bucks. We used it at DBT CBT, to have different tools. And philosophical to me took me ideas. I do all of that. I like to integrate all of these tools. Yeah. That's what they do.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah, it makes sense. And especially if you're dealing with a person that has individual or unique needs, you're going to use some things. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm guessing I might be a little more active based for this client. If that works for them. I might be a little more DBT based. If that works for this client. Everybody's gonna be a little different.
Dr Terri Bacow:Yeah. So the puck cocked out, but I do but the man forget what did the client need? What skill but that's the most?
Drew Linsalata:Yeah, makes perfect sense. Can we? I don't know how long we're going to can't see my clock because it's done. Okay, we're about 20 minutes, then. What about for younger people? Is this something you feel comfortable talking about adolescent child populations? Another question I get asked, my child was just diagnosed. What what did what is this change for them in terms of their anxiety treatment?
Dr Terri Bacow:So the convention with this, Catherine, across the age spectrum, meaning children can take them FDA approved medication, ADHD, and they gain benefit some monthly from CBT.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah, so the rules again, using that term very loosely, rules would apply even for children or adolescents. Teens, young adults. Yes.
Dr Terri Bacow:A child but adolescents, psychologists maybe tell the good to victimhood child family. But understandable. similar diagram, some more gain will make it more palpable. But that's quiet.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah. Same principles but targeted at the developmental stage. That yeah, yeah, you gotta take that into account.
Dr Terri Bacow:Technically, children, the onset of ADHD as a child, it used to be the DSM, you had to be up to 12 to get the diagnosis. Oh, I didn't know that. Yes. Yeah. That my clients who does I see Monday eight in an Uber that had an entire diet, they might not know it, but they've had ADHD the entire life.
Drew Linsalata:And they didn't Yeah, they didn't know that. That's how we started the conversation to like the person that well, something I think I might I don't, I don't know. And I've never been diagnosed. So I think this is so helpful. Because I find that it's, it's a sense of despair. Sometimes it's also the the sense of despair comes from the multiple labels. You know, I've read, I'm already diagnosed as ADHD, or artistic or whatever it happens to be. And now I also got diagnosed with OCD. You know, it feels even heavier to them sometimes, like I have I have all of these problems. Do you see it that way? What's the role of those labels for you?
Dr Terri Bacow:So I think that's one interpretation. It's an understandable one. I would be unfazed by that. And we say, it's not uncommon to have come a bit of a it's not uncommon to have more than one. And treatment can help you and with it's going to be a little more creative with that treatment to be able to help you.
Drew Linsalata:You present a very accessible and friendly look there in turn. I mean, not every not every therapist is gonna be friendly, that's fine, but at least a welcoming approach. Like yeah, that's okay. You may have two or three labels, who knows for labels, doesn't matter. It's just we can still work on that is what I'm hearing
Dr Terri Bacow:Now that we know if someone has OCD, they also have ADHD pretend to earlier conversation and might approach that differently and might not give homework. Because I might expect that a client might struggle with that with the organization of the homework assignment. Yeah. But they still see the book.
Drew Linsalata:Interesting. And I bet that's where you could start to use some of those other tools. You talked about executive function coaching, I mean, maybe we need to help you, you know, build that skill a little bit, or support your ability to do the homework before you can do the homework. And that might be a wrinkle that goes into treatment, but a good thing, the positive thing for you.
Dr Terri Bacow:Yeah, that cannot wait frequently with executive function and culture that that my client in CBT with me, take account, in addition, and I'm really aware, make a point to touch base with the person. So we could work together.
Drew Linsalata:What a great conversation, executive function coaching, but that's sort of fall in the realm of like, occupational therapist and that type of training along those lines, or is that more psychology? I'm interested in this now? You got me? I'm asking for me.
Dr Terri Bacow:Think that I'm just more familiar with it. Since I do you so much of this work? And maybe to some people that may say, what is this? Right, but we say that I'd like to need the coaching to the coaches? Yeah. And they do with the Well, the reason for that is one of the most in I talked about system intervention, the double department, when it came to ADHD, one of the most powerful good is something called body doublet. Have you heard of that?
Drew Linsalata:I have. Now learning learn something new every day if I'm not careful.
Dr Terri Bacow:So body type length is literally two seconds of another person who can just show the partner with you to hopefully get the test done. So that of time when you have ADHD, you need to organize in the mind task initiation, really challenging. But if your partner, your spouse, defend it with the oversight, and it could get started under paper that has held tasks to the coaches, do. They provide the body dabbling, that kind of stuff that they say, but you need to get that today? And certain of this other human can be like ChainTech.
Drew Linsalata:That's amazing. And with that, you know, now I'm all curious, I'll keep you for another an hour. No, I promise I won't. But if I'm challenged by the treatment work itself, I have a task to accomplish today. And that might be to do my ERP homework or do an exposure that I plan with my therapist, the body doubling could be used in that situation is that I know this is very specific. But might that be a supportive way to do that?
Dr Terri Bacow:Conceivably, yes. Yes.
Drew Linsalata:This is great. And again, that's just one of those things that says if you are in fact coming from a neuro divergent place, or that point of view or that experience, look, there's an adaptation here that could if you're struggling with the implementation of treatment, there are specific adaptations and support tools that can be used to help you through that.
Dr Terri Bacow:Yes, and I think this goes to show the advances that we've made in the field, and then treatment approaches, including symptoms of neuro divergence. And within that, it's fun to have a greater septum VEDA research, because it's reality.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah. Can we talk let's wrap it up in a minute or two, but I would like if you could, if you feel comfortable, can we address we talked a lot about ADHD. What about other neuro divergent issues? Yeah, I the one that I see is that people will I still still hear people use the term I'm on the spectrum, I know that those terminology is changing, but or they will use Asperger's and those types of labels, same approaches, or those are just extra wrinkles, different ways that you have to maybe adapt or or customize treatment. I'm guessing in those situations, too,
Dr Terri Bacow:of course, okay. One of the things that we say about the autism spectrum that I began, I don't want to make a generalization, but there's a dad of concrete thinking that have made me which add that I see some time with thought patterns. With CBT is for it's for helping people think more flexibly and that rigidly
Drew Linsalata:Yeah. So it can be really useful in that situation to I'm guessing.
Dr Terri Bacow:Yeah, so I mean, I think it could be a little harder for for folks with ASD needs to vote. You know, if someone is really stuck on an interpretation, though, an idea. I would try. Maybe they had the midframe an assumption. Yeah. complicated, but there's ways to present it in simple language. So I did take the activity and really convey it, folks are never divergent because of the country fitness. The two that are presented things like Falcon Falcon, challenging that they think fears, yeah. behavioral experiments and so forth.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah. So it's a little bit more concrete. You can grasp those things a little bit more easily. Yeah, that's not very esoteric. Yeah. Right. This has been so great. I cannot tell you how much I've enjoyed this conversation. Like, we should have done this way sooner. Oh, I'm sorry for taking so long to have you on. But how can people and I will put all of Terry's links and stuff in the show notes. So just stick it stick with me. When we're done with the interview? We'll wrap it up like you usually do. But what's the best way for people to find you and you wrote a book? I know you read a book, and I love the title.
Dr Terri Bacow:Yeah. For people to fire me with it. Maybe Instagram, if they like social media. That would be a Dr. Terry back out at Dr. Terry Baca. You have a website that at the same dr. Terry packer.com. The best way to me to buy my book and hold it up here is called Goodbye, anxiety, guided journal have become a goodbye. And this book has many of the tools that they talked about today is really bad for young adults, and teenagers, but I find many adults enjoy it. Because it's short, it's not to dog. It's easy to be a good executor. assessable with a bit of humor in it as well.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah, again, I will put all if you go to the anxious truth.com/ 276 Because this is Episode 276, I will have all the links including to Terry's book. And if you follow along with me, you will love Dr. Terry here because she speaks the same language. So you're gonna get everything she says. Thank you so much for coming. I appreciate your time. I said, Thank thank you so much for coming. I appreciate you. Appreciate. It was my pleasure. Oh, and before we sign up a public thank you to Terry here because for those of you who have needled me incessantly about being in Vogue magazine, as you can see, by my horrible hat Am I like I'm the last person ever that should have been mentioned in Vogue magazine. It was Terry that was responsible for that she was the one that recommended me in the article. And thank you so much. I cannot tell you how much fun that has turned out to be. Everybody's picking on me. And it's the funniest thing ever.
Dr Terri Bacow:This is why I did that this is the exact reason to still be boring.
Drew Linsalata:Yeah, it was it was great. So I appreciate that show support. And again, you guys should go follow along with Dr. backout. I will put all of our links there. Thanks a bunch. Okay. All right, we're back. I cannot tell you how much I actually enjoyed talking to Dr. Bacau. She is such a welcoming to me a welcoming presence for somebody who feels like they're struggling with multiple issues. And I know many of you in this community feel like oh, yeah, I see what you're saying Drew, and I follow all the accounts. But you know, I have ADHD. So I don't know if this is going to work for me. I love that she presented a very optimistic, very welcoming, very friendly, very accessible approach to these things, it doesn't mean you'd won't get better, it just means that maybe the way you get better would be a little bit different and maybe more customized for you, which is a good thing we actually want that. One thing that Terry talked about when we were off the air that she didn't get to say in the actual interview itself is she really likes to take a strengths based approach to treatment, which is something that as a therapist and training we are taught all the time, right. So everybody has some strength that they bring into this process you included. So if you're feeling a little bit of despair or confusion, because maybe you have multiple diagnoses, and you're not sure how that's going to work, always remember that there are strengths there. And Terry felt so strongly that she didn't say it in the interview. She's like, Oh, maybe we can throw that in afterwards. I'm here to represent for my friend Terry, that she she and most therapists will try to work on your strengths because you do have them even when you're feeling maybe confused or discouraged, or a little bit lost or don't know where to go next. So that's it if you guys want to get to Terry, Dr. Bacau, you can just go to the anxious truth.com/ 277. And I will have all of her links to Instagram, her website and her book, which is called Goodbye anxiety. Again, another very accessible bit of work. She just very friendly and easy to deal with. So you could check out all the links there. And I think that's about it. That is episode 277 of the anxious truth in the book. You know it's over because I'm using new music but music nonetheless. And what can I tell you as we end the episode, I'm just going to ask you the same favors that I always do. If you're listening to this podcast on Apple podcasts or Spotify or some platform that lets you rate or review. Leave a five star rating or take a second and write a nice review if you really dig the podcast because it helps more people find it and then more people get help. If you're watching on YouTube, Like the video, subscribe to the channel hit the bell notification bell so that you know when I upload new content, leave a comment ask a question, I will interact with all of you guys. And it really helps the channel so thank you so much. That is it. I will be back in another not next week but the week after but because the anxious truth is every other week. Now, I do not know what I'm going to be talking about. Actually think I do. I think I'm gonna do a Claire week's episode, because I have a lot to say about Dr. Weeks. And yeah, I'll be back to that. So pop back in in two weeks. I'll have more for you. Hopefully this has been helpful. Remember, no matter how small the step is that you might take today toward recovery, it counts. Take it, be proud of it and build on it. See you next time.