This week on a sleep-deprived. Episode 305 of the Anxious Truth, we're going to talk about the value of learning how to do nothing. It's the act of doing, not doing. My friend, joanna Hardis is here to help us with that, so let's get into it right now. Hello everybody, welcome back to the Anxious Truth. This is episode 305 of the podcast, or the YouTube channel, depending on where you are consuming this content. We are recording in November of 2024, in case you're listening from the future. Today's topic, aided by my friend OCD specialist Joanna Hardest from Cleveland, ohio, is the value of learning how to do nothing, or, as it's sometimes known, doing, not doing, and why we should probably invest time and effort in learning how to do that. If you are new to this podcast or this YouTube channel this is the first day here you kind of accidentally stumbled upon it, maybe in a YouTube or a Google search. Welcome, I'm glad that you're here.
Speaker 1:I am Drew Linsalata, creator and host of the Anxious Truth. I'm also a therapist, still practicing under supervision for the time being in New York, specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders. I'm also a former sufferer of all the flavors of anxiety disorder and depression and OCD for many years of my life on and off, but much better now for many years. Thank you very much. I'm an author. I've written three books on this topic. I'm a podcaster clearly psychoeducator, mental health advocate, social media guy all the things. But here, on the Anxious Truth, we're talking about anxiety, anxiety disorders and strategies for learning about it, understanding it and starting to work on overcoming these problems. So welcome if you are new. Of course, if you're a returning listener or viewer, welcome back. I'm glad you're here. I hope you guys find today's episode helpful.
Speaker 1:What are we going to talk about? We're going to talk about the value of learning how to do nothing. Some people call it doing, not doing. If you're familiar with Taoism or Buddhism, you may have heard doing not doing. I believe that comes out of Taoism. What are we talking about when I say that?
Speaker 1:If you have been around long enough, around this podcast or the books that I write or the content that I create, you know that we talk all the time about learning how to not react automatically to anxiety symptoms, to panic attacks, to anxiety spikes, to scary thoughts if you happen to have OCD. We are learning how to not do anything about those things, how to surrender to them, how to willfully tolerate them. If you came here, through the work of Dr Claire Weeks, we're learning how to float and utterly, utterly accept, as she would say in her Australian grandma accent, and people will often say, ok, cool, I get why we'd want to do that, but what does that even look like? If you've ever wanted to know what does surrendering to anxiety or OCD or a panic attack look and feel like? Learning how to do nothing, like undertaking, the formal practice of learning what nothing looks and feels like, can be really helpful because it helps you answer that incredibly common question. It may be completely out of the realm of your experience. You have no frame of reference for doing nothing because, like any human being, especially in Western culture, we are constantly in problem solving and fixing mode. So doing nothing, the act of doing, not doing, is all about becoming aware of that habit and working on suspending it so that we go from doing, which can be overtly behavioral or just mental mostly mental in our community into a state of not doing or just being.
Speaker 1:This is about learning to stop fighting against reality. Because it's here. You have anxiety because you're listening to this podcast. Clearly you are an anxious person. It's already here. You cannot deny that reality. So how can you work with it better? It's about learning how you are a habitual doer, problem solver, fixer, because we all are, and if we can gain an awareness of that through the practice of learning how to not do things, we do give ourselves a better chance of starting to learn new ways to interpret and relate to and be with our anxiety, our anxiety symptoms, even our panic attacks, our OCD scary thoughts, things of that nature, and we just get kind of better at doing life.
Speaker 1:So learning how to do nothing is a really valuable skill and today my friend Joanna Hardis has joined me to have this discussion. Joanna is awesome. She's one of those people that I trust implicitly. She's very well-trained. She's a very experienced and ethical therapist specializing in OCD and anxiety disorders out of Cleveland. We have worked together in the past and I can't think of a better person. I can think of one other person I would have brought in in this conversation, but it's hard to coordinate the schedules. But there's a person that I want to talk about doing nothing with. That would be Joanna. So she is here to help us out with the topic. Before I bring Joanna on, just a quick reminder.
Speaker 1:As always, the Anxious Truth is more than just this video or this podcast episode. There's a ton of more things all on my website at theanxioustruthcom. I'm not going to pitch you, just head on over there if you want to check it out. Most of this stuff is free. All of it is at at least very low cost. I have nothing expensive there. The books are cheap, so you can either find the rest of the podcast episodes or the free social media stuff or all the content I've created, or you might avail yourself of some of the low cost resources. But check it all out at theanxioustruthcom.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that, and if you're watching on YouTube, maybe like the video or subscribe to the channel. That's a way to support the work that I do. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, maybe leave a four or five star rating. If you dig the podcast or write a quick review, that's another way to support the work that I do and that costs you nothing, but it does help me out and therefore other people out, a lot, and I appreciate all of you guys, no matter how you support the podcast, even if it's just hanging out, watching a video or listening now and then. So let's get to it. We're going to talk about the value of learning to do nothing. Let's bring Joanna on, and then at the end I will come back and kind of put a bow on it, as I always Come on, come along. Here we go, joanna what up?
Speaker 1:It's been a while it's been a minute since we did one of these huh.
Speaker 2:It has been way too long. You're too busy for. You're obviously too busy now.
Speaker 1:I, I. It's very hard to get on my calendar. I'm that exclusive now.
Speaker 2:I'm joking you have. It really is because it's been over a year.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's probably since we did one of these like a podcast episode together, probably at least two years. I don't think we did one since I started my grad program.
Speaker 2:No, no, you know, because when the book came out, oh, that's right, we did that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what book did you write again?
Speaker 2:Oh, Just Do Nothing.
Speaker 1:Just Do Nothing. It's a good book, people.
Speaker 2:Thank you, thank you, yeah yeah, the paradoxical guide to getting out of your way.
Speaker 1:If you go. I don't know what episode this is, I'm so woefully unprepared. But I will tell you right now that if you go to the anxious truth slash, this is episode three oh five. So I'm going to the anxious truthcom slash three oh five. I have links to join. It's a really good book.
Speaker 2:I agree.
Speaker 1:And it matches with today's topic, which is doing nothing. Before we hit the record button, joanna was like venting one of her little peeves to me and she has such an entertaining list of pet peeves. But when you write a book called Just Do Nothing I mean we talked about it on a previous podcast episode I'll link that also in the show notes so you can listen to Joanna talk about that. But how do people misinterpret that? What do they think you mean when you say? What do you mean do nothing?
Speaker 2:What does that mean? Well, what they, what the oh. They'll come up to me oh, I love this. You're telling me that I don't have to do anything. I love it. Tell my wife that now I don't have to do anything and they miss. It's like I just shake my head because I'm not really telling people. They miss the whole second part, which is the paradoxical guide to getting out of your way. So they think what I'm advocating for is literally doing nothing, like kicking back and, just like you know, watching sports all day or Housewives or whatever, doing nothing. And that's not really. I'm sure that's not what we're talking about today, even though you that's not what.
Speaker 2:I'm talking about. That's not how we get out of our way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're not literally talking about like and you know what. It's funny because for people dealing with anxiety disorders, with highly avoidant coping strategies, that could go off the rails really fast. So, like these two people told me to do nothing, cool, I'm just gonna stay home all day and just read Right, yeah, we're not talking about that. So, I'm glad we got to clear that up.
Speaker 2:This isn't early retirement which is also what I get a lot of.
Speaker 1:Episode 305, early retirement, which is what I'm talking about. Do nothing, yeah no, with your family. Do nothing, yeah no, that's what we're talking about. So when we're talking about doing nothing, I mean I have come to the conclusion that learning how to do nothing or, like you know I think it's the Buddhist or the Taoist will say it's doing, not doing. You know, like learning how to be in not doing mode is one of those skills Like at least in the West, we should be teaching everybody from the time we're old enough to like toddle around the house. We should be learning how to not do, to do, do not do.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, otherwise, we're in constant doing mode all the time, and especially as adults, especially in a society that you know is always about improvement and achievement and goals and check boxes and all that stuff we're always in behavioral doing mode, but then there's the mental doing mode too. What does that look like for you when you're in mental doing mode? We all do it, by the way. Well, even we do it. Both of us do it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, what does it look like for me when I'm in mental doing mode?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you could be sitting like literally just sitting on your sofa, but still be in mental doing mode.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, I'm thinking. I'm thinking, I'm planning, oh yeah, I'm thinking.
Speaker 1:I'm thinking, I'm planning, I'm replaying something, I'm daydreaming, I'm on vacation somewhere else. I'm just like. You know, I'm in my head. You know I'm in my head and you know, I think, from all of those things, all of the things I get, those, um, I also discovered I can't. In the last few months, it dawned on me like, oh, I'm in constant judging mode, like mental doing is oh yeah, like evaluating, evaluating, yeah, because I'm deciding what I want and don't want. What do I like and don't like about this moment right now? Is this good? Yes, like, how do I change it to get what I want? Like, how do I resist what is because and don't want? What do I like and don't like about this moment right now? Is this good? Yes, like, how do I change it to get what I want? Like, how do I resist what is because I don't like what it is and I want something different? Like you know, we get in our own minds yes, doing mode, that's doing mode, that's difficult.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, yes, yes, even even like it's gray in Cleveland right now and it's raining and and I was a vet, like you know, hating on the weather- yeah, which is like you could not like, though it's nothing wrong with not liking the weather, but how much time and effort do we like automatically put in the resistance? There you find yourself like overly hating the weather, getting a little too carried away with hating on the weather.
Speaker 2:Yes, and then it's the oh my gosh. It's the start of winter and it's the next five months, and why am I still here and why aren't I spending the winter somewhere else? And it's like this whole story about the winter that I get into. And clients get into.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a tough one. So, and I think it's it's human nature, we all do it. This isn't like oh, you're broken if you do that, cause we all do it by default. That's the way it goes. Brains aren't meant to be quiet, they're meant to be active. That's their job. Yeah, well, I get it. One suggestion would be to just come to Long Island for the winter, cause you know it's very tropical and sunny here in the winter.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm lying it's not.
Speaker 2:No, I know it's not.
Speaker 1:We're both screwed. But isn't it funny how, like, you look out the window or you get up and you check the weather and momentarily you do have an opinion about the weather, which is okay, but then that goes into like a 90 seconds or two minutes of unconscious like, oh, you know, you know be so much better to be in Florida or someplace warm. I hate it. This sucks. Like now I have to get my winter clothes out and now you're living in February already where you have seasonal affective disorder and you want to, like you know you're like no motivated, sitting on the sofa overeating. Wait a minute, what just happened?
Speaker 2:Exactly. And then I'm on a tangent in my own head about, you know, seasonal affective disorder. Do I know how to like? Is that real? How much of that is real? How do I treat it? Like I can just like go on and on in my own head and I have a like fairly consistent meditation practice and then I'm hating. Then I'm like why, you know, I know how to like. I have a pretty good mindful awareness practice. Like how am I getting lost in this shit so regularly being critical of myself, like it's so yeah this is so relatable Same thing, we are very similar.
Speaker 1:Like I practice every day. I'm actually doing the whole MBSR teacher training thing, so I'm spending I'm literally spending a lot of time every day doing the exercises. This morning I'm in the middle of like mindful yoga. I'm supposed to be concentrating on how my body feel, the movement in space and zoning, and I'm no joke, this is legit. I found myself wondering if you had new glasses, cause I haven't seen you in a long time. We haven't recorded. I'm like, oh, I wonder if she has new glasses. What a random, ridiculous thought. Like I'm really not worried about your glasses, but I know you wear glasses. And my mind went to like I'm going to record later with Joanna, like I wonder if she has new glasses. I don't know why I thought that, but I did and it was like I don't know how long my brain was there. So I'm doing yoga but my mind is literally thinking about your eyewear. I mean, come on, brain.
Speaker 2:Really yeah it. I mean, come on brain, really yeah, it's so funny.
Speaker 1:So I think it's okay to acknowledge that our brains are built to be in constant doing mode, but that can get us into trouble, because now we're problem solving where we don't need to be. And from my take, the reason why I think we should all learn how to just be, which is the opposite of doing. Just being is like life is full of realities that we don't really want or like, but we can't do anything about them. And then, when we're in doing mode, behaviorally and mentally, we're resisting what is.
Speaker 2:Right, but I think for a lot of clients and I think this is where it may be different for you and I because we're at a different point in our recovery I hear from a lot of clients at a different point in our recovery. I hear from a lot of clients. They are like I hear all the time I'm scared to be alone with my thoughts.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh yeah, a hundred percent Like. So when we introduce mindfulness practice into, say, therapy, I do have clients that are like I mean they want to, but they're also really surprised at how difficult it is to hear that thinking, actually hear it.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think it's the question of it. May be it may sound really great in theory and people may be like, oh yeah, I totally am down with what they're saying, but what is the obstacle that gets in someone's way? Whether it's, like you know, people think it's just an absolutely unproductive use of their time these relentless optimizers or people who are just terrified of being alone with their thoughts. Or, you know, it's someone who says, like I can't possibly sit still, or you know. So I think that that is, you know, something that we you know that figuring out what it is for whatever individual person.
Speaker 1:That is. Those are the common obstacle I'm just afraid to be. Especially, we're treating people with anxiety disorders. That's a big deal. I'm going to hear my intrusive thoughts. I'm going to hear the scary thoughts. I'm going to hear the catastrophic thoughts. Yeah, true, Even for non-anxious people that don't have anxiety disorders, it's really difficult for them to sit and hear their thoughts. And I think the other thing that they wind up doing, whether they're anxious or not, I know for most of my clients that start to try this stuff, it is well, it's not working. It's the expectation of what it's supposed to be, but you don't understand. Like 10 minutes into it, my mind was wandering and I was just worried about what I was going to make for dinner. I'm like, yeah, I know that's, that's the practice, it's okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:Yes, this doesn't. This doesn't work for me.
Speaker 1:Right, it doesn't work. This isn't going to work for me. Yes, yeah. What do you think the misconception is about? Like when you'd say like, hey, we really need to learn how to go into not doing mode, what? What is the biggest misconception about what that's supposed to do that you find?
Speaker 2:I think that people either believe that they're supposed to, that they still are in an outcome mode, that they're supposed to come out of it because they see all this bullshit on social media, that they're supposed to be calm Afterward they're going to be, like you know, zenned out or calm or relaxed, and when they're not, they think that it was a waste of time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Because they're not calm.
Speaker 1:Right, because they're looking for a particular outcome?
Speaker 2:right, Exactly, yeah, Versus that, you know, mindfulness is the work Like it is. It is, and you know, that's why I think of it as a as a fitness skill, Like it's a mental fitness skill, and it's work, mental fitness skill and it's work to constantly and that's why I like this. It's when people call it attention training, because you have to constantly train your brain to come back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you find these principles in a lot of different if we're just talking about like therapy and treatment, like they're in a lot of therapies. For sure, you know, metacognitive therapy is a big component of that is attention training.
Speaker 2:It doesn't look like traditional meditation and mindfulness, but it's the same thing. I think it is anyway. Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think it's work. But I think, if someone is going into it and they, and, they, and, and, and they're expecting something, but again that's the doing mode that they have an expectation of how they're supposed to come out of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree. I think they're either looking for like a state this is supposed to make me calm or this is how I quiet my mind. The number one question. People ask me oh, you meditate all the time. Yeah, I have a daily practice, I have for many years. People ask me oh, you meditate all the time. Yeah, I have a daily practice, I have for many years. How do you quiet your mind? Well, I don't like. Often, I don't the. The practice of not learning how to be nonjudgmentally with your noisy mind is the practice. That's the. If there's a goal, that's what it is. Yes, yeah, Can I just be aware of the fact that my mind is noisy and that's okay.
Speaker 2:Right, right, because those are kind of I don't know if they're the same people, but also people that when they're, when they notice that, they're really anxious and then they'll say well, in that moment I tried meditating and it's like no, no, no, that was me.
Speaker 1:I was a compulsive meditator when I was at my worst.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I was trying to meditate it away and that got so frustrating. So, yeah, that's not what we use this for at all. Yes, if you're listening to this odds, are you dealing with a chronic or disordered anxiety problem? No, do nothing is not a technique that makes your anxiety go away at all.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:The other thing that I found really interesting. And look we're. But we talk about this all the time, you and I, when we get on our phone calls and just rant. But the messages that surround things, like being present, being present, that is a key part of it, that's correct, but that gets twisted into an aesthetic, almost Like being mindful, and the practice of doing, not doing, does not have an aesthetic, it does not have a look, it does not have a lifestyle.
Speaker 1:I mean, actually I don't know if that's true, because what I'm learning in MBSR training is it is a little bit of a lifestyle, it's borderline cultish. We'll talk about that some other day but at the same time, like there's no aesthetic, there's no goal, there's no outcome, it doesn't have to look or feel a certain way. We're trying to learn to just be aware that we're always thinking, doing and feeling lots of different things and that's okay. Like it's the awareness machine, we start to learn. If you learn to do not do, you start to be able to watch the machine work without getting swept away by it.
Speaker 2:Right, right. And then you were. I think you think you know this is the hard it's kind of, and because I feel like this is the first step is like being able to observe. Being able to observe, you know, kind of the circus that goes on internally and then being able to live your life while all of this stuff is happening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's exactly true. We always talk about things like can you bring the feeling with you? Yes, Because it's here anyway. Trying to go away isn't really working, so can you bring it with you? But you've got to be able to do that by gaining an awareness of it first.
Speaker 1:It's like well, I'm having these thoughts, I'm having these feelings, or maybe you know, this sort of work is used for people who deal with injuries or chronic pain, even terminal illness, like yeah, my back is killing me, I keep resisting it, but how can I work with it, instead of trying to fix a thing I cannot fix instantly.
Speaker 2:So that's really important.
Speaker 1:But I think it's building the awareness that like, oh, oh, look, I'm trying to fix it, I'm fighting it and that's making things worse for me. I have no shot if I try to fight reality.
Speaker 2:Right, right Right.
Speaker 1:Interesting. One of the things that I found that and I brought this up in one of the classes and I'm taking these classes, but you know well what did what you know came up for you, what surprised you. And one of the things that I said was how come so many cause? You're using guided as part of the mindfulness training curriculum. Sometimes you're using guided recordings that the instructor has given you at first. You know that's the first way you get into it. I'm like how come two of them ended with gratitude? That's. That didn't seem right to me. Like, if I'm going to be really cause, that's that thing I'm supposed to come out of it feeling calm. I should. I should be able to have a sense of gratitude and thanks. I'm like, but do we? How come, at the end of the recording, you're instructing us to be grateful?
Speaker 1:is that trying to make a feeling so, even in people who trained for three years to get that certification to teach this skill might default back to and it was interesting. It was like, oh, didn't even think about that so interesting. But then I'll hear other instructors that will say things like well, as you end the practice, just take a moment to acknowledge that you just did this. Cool, I like that. Yes.
Speaker 1:I like that Neutral right Like I might feel grateful, or I might feel happy, I might feel proud of myself, or I might feel nothing, or I might feel like I just wasted 45 minutes of my life. Either way, it's okay, right.
Speaker 2:Right, I like that. That's funny. I did that training in 2005.
Speaker 1:It's no joke. It's now three years. It's longer to get the MBSR complete certification as a teacher than it is for me to get my, or you to get your master's degree right. Oh my gosh, it's really a long program now.
Speaker 2:I'm not going three years, by the way so, oh, I did a week at omega. I gotta sign up for that, clearly oh, I went to omega for a week with john cabot zen and saki santorelli and did a week training yeah, that wasn't certified.
Speaker 1:I'm not certified well, I don't know if they, maybe they didn't that back then. We're off on a tangent a little bit, but it really surprised me. Yeah. So I'm like wow, three years of training for that. There's a certification, there's a qualification to be a teacher after a year, but it's still a year, it's not a yeah, that's intense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's Wow.
Speaker 1:Okay, back. People who teach this can accidentally fall into trying to create an outcome. So it's normal for us to want to do that. It's just our human nature, it's okay. Yeah, yeah. So what do we do? You know what are we doing? We find ourselves looking for that outcome and then judging what it's supposed to be, and then it's not that, and then we don't want to do it. What do you do when you get frustrated with it?
Speaker 2:When I get frustrated, when I get frustrated, that I'm, when I get frustrated, when I get frustrated, that I'm, when I get frustrated, that I'm looking for an outcome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause I think no matter how long we practice, we get stuck in there, right? I mean, people wear robes and move to monasteries and try to dedicate their lives for this and if they're honest, they'll tell you at 80 years old, I still don't have it right, like I'm still failing. Yeah, so, like, what do you do when you find that, like Ooh, I accidentally did get caught up in an outcome or I spent my entire 45 minutes off and God knows where in my head, right the key there?
Speaker 2:I mean I am really trying and I and I mean I get so many opportunities cause I fail so often because I am so self-critical of myself. I am really, really trying to like be kinder to myself, that like, okay, you know, I acknowledge that, like I am human eight times out of 10. I, you know it may not work, but two times out of 10 I am getting better at saying you know what I'm human. I like I can't punish myself, like I'm catching it, I'm noticing it and I'm human.
Speaker 1:Cool, okay, I mean two. Two times out of 10 is better than zero times out of 10.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, and I'm really trying to say like there is nothing wrong with me, like I'm human, and this is something I'm working on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what you just said I think is so important. You know, learning to do nothing, or learning the art of doing not doing, which we'll get to the particulars, I think, and how, what that sort of looks like for people. But you are, you're not in the midst of an anxiety disorder and even you have to remind yourself I'm human. It's okay to not do this right, cause there even is no right. So for somebody who's trying to feel better and there's no it's okay to want to feel better. We're not saying that you shouldn't want that, but it's so easy to instantly take a practice like this and treat it as a technique or really want the outcome so much that you get critical of yourself and then you say you're even more broken and you can't do it and you're failing. That's such a trap.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't notice it as much when I'm I'm. I'm pretty good when I do a seated meditation of being kind to myself when I notice that. I'm like when I notice and I label like mind wandering to bring it talked about before I am so hard on myself about, like you know, making a mistake or like anything that I do wrong. So I am really trying to. Joanna, like you're human, you're allowed to be anxious, you're allowed to avoid, you're allowed to bail and make mistakes. You're human, it's okay.
Speaker 1:And isn't that part of the whole psychological flexibility thing, though? Like I can be there. I can be there with that too, so I can be anxious, I can be upset. I could be feeling like I'm failing. I could not feel so good about myself today. That's allowed too.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've had some really like terrible behavior on that court and with people saying like, aren't you a therapist?
Speaker 1:And like that makes it even worse. I want to start watching the Cleveland news, cause you might be on there soon. I don't know.
Speaker 2:It's just like me leaving, like walking out and stuff, but but like really, and I am so hard on myself Like I should be, whatever we don't this is not my therapy session but but really leaning into you know, trying to be kinder as I make you know, because I'm hitting up against a lot of distress and like really trying to like leave the internal stuff there and not do anything with it, which is some of what we were talking about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's the not doing, learning to not do right, the. The skill of not doing is not. Sometimes it's physically not doing. You're right, I'm just going to sit. Yeah, that's one of my favorite things is no. No, I get 15 minutes now to sit on my silly little cushion and not do. I'm allowed to not do any. This is an exercise and literally not do.
Speaker 2:There's no goal, just I'm just saying that, yes, I find that is easier for me than then the next step, which is taking it out into the world.
Speaker 1:I agree. But you build that in that sort of formal practice and that's why we'll get into this a little bit more now. But I think in that situation so you're struggling at pickleball ball because you want to have a certain outcome and you can't get it and you get frustrated. That's where the skill of not knowing to not do is the mental skill. Oh wait, I am mentally trying to problem solve this instead of just like this is what I got today, maybe tomorrow I'll be better or worse, I don't know, that's all out. Yeah, learning that, that, being aware of this, like oh, I'm mentally problem solving pickleball.
Speaker 2:Right yeah, but I think for a lot of people the physically not doing it's hard, yeah, and it's hard for parents to not to just have unstructured time with their kids.
Speaker 1:That's true too. Yeah, you find it in school, in work, in parenting, in relationships. Yes, like not doing time is so valid, and you know what? There's been so much written about this lately too the idea that we have forgotten how to be bored, we've forgotten how to be idle because we don't have to be anymore, and then the ability to just be in a situation for whatever it is, without judging it. We have lost that. We're collectively losing that. Yes, and I think you and I are a similar age Like we get as kids. We did have to learn how to be idle and bored.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, whereas now kids don't have to ever be, my kids never had to be bored, your kids probably never had to be bored.
Speaker 2:We had quiet time.
Speaker 1:See that you're smart. Yeah, you were teaching them how to be bored or how to be idle.
Speaker 2:They, they hated it. The third one never had quiet time, Um, but the older two had quiet time where they couldn't have TV, they couldn't have electronics and they had to just do like figure out what the hell they wanted to do.
Speaker 1:If your kids are listening, if Joanna's kids are listening to this podcast. I'm sorry. Your mom was so mean. Yeah, seriously there's value in that, though you know. But as a even if, as adults, if you didn't learn it and you never you don't know what it is to be idle and quiet, and still you can learn it now. It doesn't matter how old you are, you can still learn it, Never too late.
Speaker 2:Other than sitting on your cushion. What do you do for it?
Speaker 1:Well, what I've gotten better at over the last year or so in my practice, I guess, and now I'm only in the beginning of the MBSR trainingR training but like it is an eyeopening thing after only four or five weeks. So I'm I'm very beginner at that, but being able to, I'm starting to bring it into other areas, like I am a food as fuel guy. I am not a foodie. I will cook sometimes but I don't care how it comes out. I'm not fair enough and I know I'm weird that way I get it, but that's the way I am. Bringing it into eating has turned into an interesting experience too, because now I see how mindless I am on that and it's not helping me. So, for instance, I learned this caused a lot of chuckling in my house. The breakfast I make is absolutely awful. I'll eat it anyway and not care. I'll just wolf it down and like, okay, I'm done eating, but I'm also reading a book or I'm listening to a podcast or I'm checking my email at the same time. That is not helping me at all.
Speaker 1:So learning that and bringing it into eating now and then I'm not a mindful eater by habit and I'm not I accept that about myself really taught me that like I'm using a thing that's supposed to be good for me, fueling my body, and it could be a little five or 10 minute break for my mind, and a recharge was making things worse in my day, adding to the stress, adding to the load, like what the hell's going on and I was eating crap.
Speaker 2:So like all.
Speaker 1:I have to do is cook it like two more minutes and maybe put a little seasoning. Oh the horror, it's an extra 10 seconds and it's even enjoyable. Maybe put a little seasoning oh the horror, it's an extra 10 seconds and it's even enjoyable. Wow, what an eye opener. How did I miss that? I was, like today, days old when I discovered that I'm eating a terrible breakfast and being okay with that.
Speaker 2:Makes no sense, right? Yes, it's not like making a huge life change.
Speaker 1:No, these are little tiny things here and there. The other night it was a really long day came home and all I wanted to do was chill and it's even funny, because learning this skill and practicing it is work I had to motivate myself to sit on a cushion. How ridiculous does that sound? It's eight o'clock at night and I want to do a night practice. I know it's good for me. I really want to do it because I like the practice, but also I'm tired and I just want to zone out and numb out.
Speaker 2:I could not. I had to motivate myself to sit down. Come on man?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I also broke a box of light bulbs accidentally in my garage and I was ready a long day and I just wanted to get to the point where I could numb out. And in that moment the skill of doing nothing came in handy, because I didn't rant and rave and stomp around the garage for 35 or 60 minutes and then numb myself out scrolling YouTube or Instagram for three hours. I was recognizing what I was doing. This happened I dropped a light bulb. What can I do? I can clean it up.
Speaker 1:Ranting and raving and mentally problem solving and judging the experience would have made it much worse for me in the past.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's where it's showing up for me behaviorally, but it's a really not consistent. It's hard.
Speaker 2:It is hard. It is hard, but I think people can make those little micro shifts where they are just doing one thing, even like even if someone just walks the dog, but they don't, you know, they don't listen to something right, just walk the dog they just walk the dog yep, yep, if you're gonna make a cup of tea, just make the tea, that's it. Right, don't, don't multitask.
Speaker 1:Which, again, like you, have to be really learned to be flexible when you do this, because your brain will try to multitask and that's okay if you catch it. Come back to making the tea. But the intention there would be whether you intend to sit on a meditation cushion for 15 or 40 minutes or an hour however long you can do or you intend to just make a cup of tea, which takes you three minutes. That's the intention. I'm going to just make this tea, then your brain will wander off and you come back to the tea, the tea making or the dog walking. That's practice.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:What about identity? I always find identity issues come up too. You said that earlier like, yeah, but that feels like, but I'm not accomplishing. I'm the doer, I take care of everybody, I'm the problem solver, I'm the, I'm the multitasker, I multitask. I'm so good at multitasking, you know. So sometimes it can you're confronting issues of like, but I I'm I'm always supposed to be doing that's correct to do. Why are you telling me it's wrong? But then we would?
Speaker 2:ask why are you listening to this podcast? Right, and you know how well is it? At what cost are you multitasking? Yeah, I always ask people like at what cost? And if you're a parent, you know what are you mirroring for your kids. Because most parents, most parents, want their kids to be able to play independently, to be able to focus, to be able to do all these things, and then, if we're not able to model it, it's very hard. We wonder why our kids struggle so much to focus and to just do one task other than, like you know, scroll YouTube or whatever they're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, and that's a very real thing, we all know that problem in real life, whether it's with young people or adults, it's almost universal Like no, it's the default. What do you mean? I want it. Can I just have my iPad? Well, what if? What if you do sit silently for just five minutes, could you do it?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but again we go back to the beginning. The first thing is like, no, no, what is? Why would I sit silently To practice it? To practice it not to quiet your mind, not to calm down, not to have some sort of insight. Maybe you will, who knows. But like it's just the practice of at least considering the possibility that not doing, just being, is valuable, and I think we've totally forgotten that, generally speaking, in our society.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and being curious, I mean I think like curious about what can come up, like I think you can get, I mean great idea, you can get an idea, who you know? Great things can come when we just let ourselves be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what I find people sometimes discover is that when they cultivate this and, believe me, there's no experts in my life I do not know anybody that would call themselves an expert at this Even if things don't come up in the silent time or the quiet time, you get more room moment to moment as you're living your day for stuff to pop up that could be productive. Or suddenly you find that you're being more. You're not trying to be more productive, but you are. You're not trying to like be less anxious, but somehow you are, because you're able to notice like, oh, I'm having a sensation in my body. What if I don't try to problem solve it? What happens? Things happen that you don't expect. Then it's good, yeah, right, yeah, I mean, that's why people with things like chronic pain, they learn these type of skills Like what if I don't problem solve my back pain right now? What happens to it? And they will report lower subjective pain experiences and I don't know. There are times when it fades away Like good. Things happen when we practice this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're putting that space.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's exactly right. It's the building of the awareness that I'm problem solving my back pain or my knee pain or my anxiety or my racing heart. I'm problem solving it. Oh, I can see what I'm doing now. Yeah, now I might make a different choice. What if I just let it be there, right, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's that thing that we've talked about. I think we've talked about it on other podcasts that you're. It's the difference between making. Then you're able to make, instead of an emotion or a fear-based decision, you're able to do a values-based decision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a hundred percent. Lately I've heard it described as a difference between reacting yeah, 100%. Lately I've heard it described as the difference between reacting which is like automatic and mindless, and responding, which has some thought behind it. It doesn't mean responding is always positive and always productive, but at least you have a better chance of going in a productive or positive way than if you just respond knee jerk, don't like fix, don't like fix, don't like fix, don't like fix. You have no shot then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:So what would you tell somebody that? Okay, you know what you guys have sold me on this. Maybe I want to learn how to start to learn, how to do not doing. Where do you start? What would you tell somebody?
Speaker 2:You know I start very small Two minutes, like two to three minutes, and I typically will use something more like an attention training, because I have found doing this work if I say mindfulness-based meditation or something eyes roll.
Speaker 1:That's a good point. I'm going to use that too, thank you. I just learned something Smart.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I just feel like the word has so much, like it just means I get too much. So attention training and so really training that once you start to notice that your attention is getting hijacked, you know, bring it back to whatever your anchor is, and so we will practice it in session. So if your anchor is your breath or the spot on the wall or whatever it is, you just keep coming back.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:For, you know, two minutes.
Speaker 1:I like that. I like attention training, Because you're right when you say things like mindfulness or meditation, sometimes the connotations and the prejudgments are there.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Meditation doesn't work. Everybody tells you to meditate my anxiety way no, no, no, no, no. Let's just work on awareness first. How's that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know. And so there's so many videos that I don't you know they don't particularly like, it just doesn't I don't know, I've never really like gotten into them. But online on YouTube there's tons of attention training with sound that people can access, where you know you have to pay attention to one sound and then they put another sound in that. But I just do two to three minutes that when you notice that your attention is being, you know, hijacked, just bring it back and set a timer and you know three minutes is. It's a small enough amount, it's like a lightweight.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right. And people will often wonder like well, how long do you sit for? Well, I can do 45 minutes. You know, I've never known an hour, I've never done that. I don't always do 45 minutes. 10, 15 minutes is fine for me, but that's a very long time for a person who's never done it. I wouldn't have been able to do 15 minutes back then.
Speaker 2:And I think the data like when I was reading Peak Mind by Amishi Jha, which I love that book, 12 minutes is what a lot of the research showed that if you really want the changes in your brain, you know, I think you need like five or five days a week at 12 minutes a day, which I think is, you know, that's more palatable for people I don't know that, you know people, you know 45 minutes I feel like is so that's asking a ton.
Speaker 1:It really is. You're really buying into a lifestyle change. But you don't have to do that. I am with you. I have people who start with 30 seconds a minute. If that's all they think they can tolerate, it's okay to do that, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Get it in four or five times a day, then that's fine, that's fine, yeah, and I believe in her book and that book is so interesting. She's the one who's done all the research with the armed forces.
Speaker 1:Oh, cool Okay.
Speaker 2:Bringing attention, training, mindfulness-based meditation to the armed forces. Really interesting Peak mind. She does 12 minutes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's doable, right. I mean, maybe for a beginner it's not, but you could get to 12 minutes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and she starts smaller.
Speaker 1:And you know, I think what's great about that is part of the practice is just, you're allowed there's no outcome here and even if you suck at it for 12 minutes, you're allowed to try this for 12 minutes. It's okay. It's safe to not problem solve your anxiety or your OCD. It's safe to let go. It's safe to stop recovering. It's safe to be not productive. That's just by itself. Just taking the 12 minutes or the three minutes, that's a good start. I'm allowed to do this. I'm allowed to try this for three minutes. That's allowed, Right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, most people are engaging in so many behaviors that are, you know, that are making their anxiety or their, you know, their OCD or their anxiety disorder so much worse. And you know, you know so something has to give.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's that there's so many lessons we can talk about this. We can do a whole series on this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've talked about doing.
Speaker 1:Yes, I know, like we could keep doing a bunch of these things, but I think, in the end, the lessons for me is learning what it so when people say I don't understand, how do I learn to surrender? How do I learn to tolerate, how do I learn to stop fighting? This is how you learn. This is a key part to me in how you learn. You have to almost be willing to say I, you know, this doesn't, I don't think I could do nothing. I want to understand the idea.
Speaker 1:Of course, I have to do something, but if that's not working for you, I think it's really important to do this kind of work, because this teaches you what it feels like to let go, to not solve it, to not fight it, to not manipulate it, to not try to control it. How do you even know what that feels like when people ask people like you and I well, what does it even look like? I don't understand. You're telling me that I have to let my heart race, for instance, or I have to have that scary thought and just let it be there. What does that even look like? Well, clearly, what you're telling me is you have no reference for what not doing is even like which many people in the West don't have. Here's a way to start to look at that to start to look through that lens.
Speaker 1:It's not specific to your anxiety or your OCD, but it's a way to start to at least put that lens in front of you so you can look through the do nothing lens.
Speaker 2:Right, and my feeling is, if you can like get a glimpse of that like this is the first step If you can get a glimpse of how to do that as you sit there, as you sit, and you get a glimpse of how you become an observer and you just observe, then we begin to get that process and then we add in a little bit more distress to it and then it's the same process, but then we add in more and more distress as we begin to take that out from the mat into the world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it has application, even though it might be. If nothing else, if you take anything out of the last 40 minutes, it's. Can I at least consider that this thing where I learned how to literally learn how to do nothing and practice doing nothing, maybe it does have a value. What if you at least consider the possibility that it might have some sort of value? That's all I would ask people to take away from this.
Speaker 2:Right, because this is the formal. Sitting on the cushion or the sitting on the floor is the formal practice, but the informal is how we then put it into the, how we then take those, that awareness, into the world, which I think is the value, you know, part of the next step.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So if you, you know you work with Joanna and she tries to teach you how to do three minutes of attention, you know, just paying attention, it would be very easy to do a little eye roll or just immediately dismiss it, prejudge it Like this isn't going to work. How is this ever going to calm me down? It's not supposed to Just give it a chance.
Speaker 1:So one of the more interesting things and I guess we'll wrap up that I get out of the whole MBSR training thing is when people do the formal eight-week MBSR thing, which they could do at UMass or any number of places that does that, what they're really told is like you need to have beginner's mind on this, like I know you might judge it. As this isn't going to work, you don't have to like it, you don't even have to get a response or a result from it. All we ask is, if you commit to it, do it for the eight weeks and then tell us at the end of eight weeks what it was. How's that? So same thing Just do the three minutes, try it and then see what it looked like, and then do it again and again and often, as you and you know what, in two weeks you may decide I'm out, okay, but at least you tried it, yeah, so fair enough, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, fair enough.
Speaker 1:Anything you want to add to sort of end the discussion.
Speaker 2:I don't think so.
Speaker 1:How can people find you, my friend?
Speaker 2:They can find me on my website, joannahardestcom. Will you link it so I don't have to spell it?
Speaker 1:I will definitely.
Speaker 2:It's super annoying when I have to spell it.
Speaker 1:What episode did I say this was 305. So if you go to theanxioustruthcom slash 305, or you're on YouTube or you're listening as a podcast, I will link it in the description.
Speaker 2:And can I plug that? I have a free mini course that people might be interested in. So it's a free mini course that might help people get unstuck and it is six videos over the course of 10 days where I walk you through how to make a small behavioral change and maybe your small behavioral changes. Do you want to start a three minute attention training practice?
Speaker 1:I'm going to sign up for that. Let me be very clear. You guys on social media you hear me kind of poo poo all the time, the courses and the stuff. This person sitting on video with me right now I trust implicitly.
Speaker 2:Oh, that is so kind, drew. I appreciate that, joanna is not.
Speaker 1:She is as ethical as they get. This is not a ooh. How can I make $2 million selling shitty courses to people? She ain't doing that, so go check it out Free.
Speaker 2:I'm not even making. How could I make $2 million?
Speaker 1:Anyway, thank you, my friend, we'll do more of these. I miss doing them with you.
Speaker 2:I know, this is so fun.
Speaker 1:It always is. Guys, if you stay tuned, I will come back and do a little wrap-up, like I always do, with more links and everything. And yeah, see you guys later.
Speaker 1:And we are back in the studio, which, as you can see, I have the same silly baseball cap on. I'm still looking pretty sleep deprived. I'm in the exact same place that I was like 10 seconds ago. So there is no studio, it's just my desk. It's fine, you're used to this by now, but I hope you enjoy the conversation with Joanna. Again, I cannot stress enough Joanna is somebody that I trust implicitly. She knows her stuff and she was a great guest to have to talk about this topic.
Speaker 1:We're going to cover this more in the future. For sure We'll fill in some details. We may offer some programs on this to help you learn a little bit more about it or try it out Talking about that. I don't know what it's going to look like, but we'll see. If you want to know more about Joanna, if you're watching on YouTube, I will put a link to her website in the video description. I'm going to pop it up on the screen right now. If you're watching the video, if you're listening on a podcast app, look at the podcast description I'll link to her website Also, it's JoannaHardestcom. Or if you're on my website at TheAnxiousTruthcom, slash 305, listening, watching or reading the show notes, there'll be a link on this page to JoannaHardestcom as well. You well, you could check out all of her cool stuff. Follow her on social media. Check out the book that she wrote, which is literally called just do nothing, and it speaks to this particular topic. But she's she's one of the good ones for sure. She's not trying to take advantage of anybody and she's not trying to sell you snake oil. So go check out my friend Joanna and if you hook up with her in any way, just tell her. I sent you. And that is episode 305 of the anxious truth in the books.
Speaker 1:I don't think I'm going to do the music thing, or maybe I will. We'll see how I feel when I edit all this. But remember there is something to the learning to do nothing. It is a valuable thing. Joanna includes it in the work that she does with her therapy clients. I include it in the work I do with my therapy clients and if you're thinking cool, I learned how to instantly calm down or shut down my scary thoughts.
Speaker 1:Got to back away from that a little bit. Align your expectations a little bit more in line with what it's supposed to actually do. Maybe open up to the experience of learning something that has a longer term benefit. That might even go beyond recovery from your anxiety disorder. But I think it's worth looking into. So consider what you've heard today and maybe poke around a little bit more to see what else you can learn about it and maybe try it for yourself. Joanna and I may be working on some programs on that that will give you a little more information or a little opportunity to practice with us. We will see how that works out Probably more coming on that in the new year, in 2025.
Speaker 1:So stay tuned for that. But yeah, that's about it. Maybe here I will put in the music. Anyway, we'll be back in two weeks with another podcast episode. This one's going to have a special guest that I'm a little bit starstruck about. So come back in two weeks and you'll see who that is. It's going to be pretty informative. If you're watching on YouTube, maybe like the video, subscribe to the channel, leave a comment. I have not commented back to you guys in like six weeks, but I promise I am going to go back. Hopefully next week I will have time to answer my YouTube comments. Hopefully next week I will have time to answer my YouTube comments.
Speaker 1:If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or someplace that lets you rate a review live a four or five star rating.
Speaker 1:If you dig the podcast and thinks it deserves, think it deserves that, maybe take time and write a review, because it helps more people find the podcast and then more people get help. That's why I'm talking to this silly microphone. To begin with, and if you're looking at learning how to do nothing and using it as part of your recovery strategy, remember that it's okay to not be good at it. It's okay to not even be sure that it's going to work for you. Even just the act of opening up to that experience and considering it, trying it, is a small step in the right direction, and you always have to give yourself credit for small steps in the right direction, no matter how tiny they are or how insignificant you think they are. They do add up if you're willing to learn the lessons that they give you. So thanks for listening. We'll see you again. Or watching. See you again in two weeks. Take care of yourself and we'll be back again.
Speaker 2:We'll see you next time.