Hey there, welcome to episode 306 of the Anxious Truth. This is the podcast where we cover all things anxiety, anxiety disorders and anxiety recovery. Now, today we do not have any music, we don't have any fancy intro or outro, but we do have a conversation about rational emotive behavior therapy, rebt. Rebt, I kid you not, is the OG of modern cognitive behavioral therapies. It was created and introduced to the world by Dr Albert Ellis back in the 1950s and 1960s. He really led the way in modern cognitive behavioral therapies and REBT has been in widespread use ever since. It's an empirically supported therapy. There's a lot of data and research behind it and today we have a very special guest to join us to talk about REBT.
Speaker 1:Her name is Dr Debbie Jaffe Ellis, otherwise known as Dr Debbie, and while she does have the same last name and was in fact married to Dr Ellis, she was his collaborator at the tail end of his career. But her work stands on its own. She is more than just the wife of the late Dr Ellis, but she was his partner, his collaborator, and she is a bit of a legend in therapy and counseling herself. So Dr Debbie was kind enough to take some time to talk to us today about REBT. We're going to talk about its origin stories, its nuances, its unique features, how it might be applied in the context of treating anxiety disorders. I had a great time talking to her. She is a lovely individual, very friendly, very open, very kind, very willing to share and educate. It was really good.
Speaker 1:Before we get to the interview, just a quick reminder that the Anxious Truth is more than just this video or this podcast episode. There are a ton more resources that you can find on my website at theanxioustruthcom. Go check it out if you're so inclined. Let's get Dr Debbie on. I hope you guys enjoy this. I'll come back at the end to wrap it up, dr Debbie. Dr Debbie Jaffe Ellis, welcome. Thank you so much for taking the time to hang out today for a little while.
Speaker 2:It is my pleasure, on this cloudy Manhattan day, to hang out with you, drew, and enjoy talking about whatever we're going to talk about.
Speaker 1:We are going to wing it. Now you guys know me enough to know that I often wing it, and Dr Debbie was clearly my people. She's like, yeah, let's totally wing it and I'm like this is what we're going to do. So before we get started, you know we were talking before I hit the record button about the audience with this podcast is predominantly people dealing with anxiety disorders. So give us the Reader's Digest version or not. Talk as long as you want, I don't care if you take up the whole episode, I'm just going to listen. Within the framework of REBT rational emotive behavioral therapy how would you approach things like panic disorder, agoraphobia, ocd, gad? You know the usual suspects. What does REBT have to tell us about those particular struggles and how do you approach them?
Speaker 2:Yeah, REBT can be very helpful. Now, depending on the degree of the impact of whichever of those emotions that you mentioned, it may take a longer or shorter time to notice significant change, to notice significant change With ongoing effort applying. What I'm about to describe, it's a biological, scientific fact that change is probable if a person persists. So what am I talking about? So, Drew, I'm not familiar with whether your listeners are familiar with the principles of REBT.
Speaker 1:Well, my listeners generally understand what CBT is, but I've never really given the difference and the fact that REBT predates CBT. So yeah, let's do a little background on what it really is. That would be great.
Speaker 2:Okay, my pleasure. So REBT Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy created by my late, brilliant, amazing husband, dr Albert Ellis, heralded in the cognitive revolution in psychotherapy. He was trained to be a psychoanalyst a la Freud, because when he was at college there really wasn't any choice there was Freud, there was early behaviorism. Anyway, he was an excellent psychoanalyst but he felt impatient with it because he noticed that many of the people he worked with felt better after a session and there could be insights. They weren't getting better, they weren't proactively making effort to change whatever thinking and behavior was contributing to disabling emotions or disturbances. And so, bit by bit and we don't have time for me to go into the whole history, but he created REBT. Now he was a mentor and a help and an inspiration to Dr Aaron Beck, who's considered the father of CBT. Cbt came out 15 years after REBT.
Speaker 2:So I'm really glad, for anyone who's interested in accurate historical chronology, that REBT was the pioneering cognitive approach. So there's the background. A few little bits about it before I answer your first question about anxiety and panic and so forth. So one of the main principles of REBT and I love it because it's so empowering and if a person certainly is not cognitively impaired, but if they are not and have the willingness to make change in order to create less misery and experience more joy in life, in life that will contain, in all probability, challenges and loss and some pain healthy pain of loss and so forth but one of the tragedies, I believe, of so many humans is they're not aware and here's the point I'm leading to, the first basic element of REBT that it's not circumstances that create our emotions, but the way we perceive the circumstances, how we think about them, our beliefs about them. And if we think in irrational ways about happenings that we don't want, some that may be brutal and tragic or not getting what we do want, when we think in irrational ways, we create what REBT calls unhealthy, negative emotions. Negative, not because they're bad, but they're not so pleasant, and they include anxiety, extreme fear, panic, hopelessness, despondency, depression, rage, guilt and shame. Now, their healthy counterparts, which we create when we think in healthy ways, are concern instead of panic, fear and anxiety. It's healthy to have that little adrenaline, boosting motivation to move our tushes and get things done and so forth or to attend to certain things. So concern is healthy.
Speaker 2:Anxiety, panic, fear, debilitating when we think in rational ways, instead of despondency and depression, healthy grief, sadness, disappointment, instead of rage, that moral anger. We're still in control. We don't react. We choose as best as we humanly can to respond when we receive or observe immoral, unethical behaviour or situations. And finally, instead of guilt and shame, which often are present when a person is not experiencing meaning in life and is hopeless, and often present in people who attempt suicide, we experience and create regret, which is another, like healthy anger, emotion connected to our inner moral compass. So, very quickly getting to answer your question about anxiety, panic and fear, what are the irrational ways of thinking that would create anxiety and other unhealthy, negative emotions? We have demands, we have shoulds, we have musts, very rigid thinking, and a few of the common ones are I must do well and be liked loved, approved of by everyone.
Speaker 2:Now, when someone holds that, little wonder that they create anxiety if someone looks at them cross-eyed or with a disapproving face, or if they're rejected or abandoned because they have this underlying irrational belief that they must be approved of or it's awful, or it proves they're worthless or, worse, makes sense In my audience just to interject a little bit.
Speaker 1:we see that the must is always I must only be calm or I must not feel these feelings to be okay. That's the predominant must among the people who are listening to you right now. I would say yeah.
Speaker 2:It sounds like the belief behind those beliefs. I must not be me, I must not be human.
Speaker 1:I must not be fallible.
Speaker 2:I must not be fallible If I'm not acting as I should. I must not be compassionate and gentle of myself in ways I probably easily am with others. Yeah, aren't we cruel to ourselves when we're not thinking things through?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's amazing, I think, the amount of self-criticism that comes out. I'm failing because I'm anxious. I'm failing because I can't control this very human experience that was never meant to be controlled. So yeah, I hear you. Does that speak a little bit to the rationality how REBT sort of defines rational? Who decides what's rational or not? I'm sure people are wondering Well, who decided that? Did Albert Ellis decide what was rational or not?
Speaker 2:people, I'm sure people are wondering well, who decided that? Did albert ellis decide what was rational? No, but he really very succinctly described some of the main elements, which include, coming to what you were saying drew unconditional self-acceptance that every human has worth simply because we exist. We may do some bad things, some shitty things. It doesn't make us a bad person, akin to excrement. We may do some saintly things. It doesn't make us a good person. It makes us a person who's done some good things. So each human.
Speaker 2:This is inherent in REBT and in other philosophies, by the way, but I'm here as the REBT queen, or whatever you want to call it queen for the day. So, yeah, that I mean. I ask listeners, ask yourselves, how comfortable do I allow myself to be in my own skin? How much effort, if any, am I making to embrace my fallibility? And even when I'm creating an unhealthy emotion, is that a reason that I have less worth or to put myself down? My response to that, and yours I'm sure, drew, is no, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 2:So one of the elements of irrational might be just to give listeners and viewers an opportunity to reflect on whether they think in any of these ways I mentioned. I must always do perfectly well, you and you can be an individual or a group or a religion or a political party. Gee, any political stuff going on right now? No, no, no, don't know why. I thought of that country. So you must act the way I think you should. You must believe the way I think you should believe. You must believe what I believe. You must treat me the way I think you should. You know that belief is at the heart. On a milder scale though, it's not necessarily mild relationship breakups, but on a global scale, that belief you should be the way I think you should is at the root of terrorism and war and hatred.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you should be the way I need you to be, or I want you to be.
Speaker 2:I insist that you be, or else it proves that you're not worthy, or worse.
Speaker 1:Do you ever find that that's a difficult? And it's interesting because there's a bent in REBT that I really identify with and because it's an acknowledgement of the reality of the way the world and people are, which is really important, I think, as in part of RBT, at least the way I see it and so there's almost an irrationality. The next, the third thing that I might think would be irrational in that framework would be I am refusing to acknowledge the reality of the world as it just is. People sometimes aren't like us, or I do make mistakes or I do have bad feelings. Yeah, this is the way. Have bad feelings. Yeah, this is the way life is sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I would say the attitude that's encouraged through REBT or common sense wisdom is the benefit of adopting an attitude of realistic optimism.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's really good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so optimism because, damn it, where there's life, there is hope, unless one, literally, is in pain almost 24-7, you know, and quality of life is not good and there's really no biological indication that things will get better. But for that, and if someone is cognitively impaired and unable to be, you know, if there's a psychosis, or not able to understand the principles that we're talking about and they're not complicated but for those instances there are enough examples that where there's life, there is hope that things can get better. Oh, the other group of people that doesn't apply to and I'm not meaning to sound people who are listening to us are alive. We're talking, I hope we're talking to them. Yeah, I hope we're talking to them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but I'm not that good. I'm not reaching the deceased. I've got a big audience, but they're all alive. That's true. Well, as far as you know, as far as I know at least, I don't know If there's any zombies listening shoot me an email yeah.
Speaker 2:Unusual life forms, but apart from that, so reality based, definitely. And in fact, one of the things that rebt encourages us to do, if we are determined to suffer less and enjoy life more, is to identify those self-defeating beliefs and dispute the guts out of them. And one of the ways we dispute is through asking questions. And one of the questions is where is the evidence? Again, reality-based? Oh, I'm telling myself, I have no worth, I don't deserve to exist. Where's the evidence? Oh, I failed at this.
Speaker 2:How does it follow that if you fail at something, you have no worth? You know this kind of questioning and questioning. How's it logical? Where is it getting me or you or us, to think in these ways? And we question the irrational beliefs and, as a result of that, new realistic truths emerge. Well, I may not be perfect, but I have a right to exist. You know, it depends on what the issue is who the person is. I have worth simply because I am. I like the approval of others, but I don't need it. Your opinion of me is none of my business. That's Eleanor Roosevelt. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I always love that one. You know, one of those in this audience that you're addressing today might be I can't handle extreme anxiety, but you always do. I just don't like it, but you do handle it. So where is the? The one of the things you said earlier was really great like there's a high likelihood of change. I mean, I might argue that change is going to happen no matter what you do, because we change. The world is not, people are not static, the world is not, universe is not static. So where's the? Where's the agent of change? So if you, as the helper, I'm, I'm your client and you're the therapist, no, hope for you.
Speaker 1:No hope for me. Clearly, everybody knows this, but I tell you Someone else. No, it's fine, I can't handle this. Your challenge to me might be well, where's the evidence for that? Yeah, now does the change come, just because you told me that my thought was irrational.
Speaker 2:No, your change has very little to do with what I'm going to tell you and everything to do with the effort that you're going to make. And so the change will come through repetition, repetition, repetition. There's this field called neuroplasticity that has proven that with repetition, be it behaviors, physical behaviors or thoughts new neural pathways are formed in the brain, and not just when we're kids, you know, when we're adults. Unless there's some neuropathy or sorry, neurobiological reason, it's not too late. And so through repetition, neuroplasticity is found that it takes at least 30 days For some people it might be more, for some people it may not be more For new neural pathways, new habitual ways of thinking to be formed in the brain.
Speaker 2:So the key is identify the toxic thoughts, dispute the guts out of them, because if we don't believe them they're less likely to come up. Now, habitually they may still for a while, in which case we keep disputing. But as time goes on, what's not credible because we disputed it, we saw there was no truth in it is less likely to come up. And then, the more we repeat the healthy, new rational recognitions you know, put it on your phone, post it all over the place, remind yourself, put it, record it and listen to it a few times each. I have worth because I exist. I honor my fallibility. I embrace being human, whatever it is. Where is it written that? And repetition Therein lies change. No, not what I say to anyone. Hopefully that triggers an awareness.
Speaker 1:But then repetition, repetition and notice the change over time, it also might inform a different action. So if I'm stuck in maladaptive, avoidant behavioral patterns that are based on my irrational thoughts, hey, dr Debbie might give me a reason to at least consider that maybe that belief isn't correct and I can act in different ways. Would you use that as part of the framework?
Speaker 2:Certainly, you know, whatever helps, whatever helps some people, it's the's the actions, for others it's the thinking alone, for many, it's both and um and and. To go back to what you brought up a few minutes ago, drew um when someone said oh, I forget your exact words, but along the lines of I always make myself anxious, or I can't stop being anxious, I forget. But along those lines I will immediately say insert till now.
Speaker 1:Really good right.
Speaker 2:Because the past does not need to dictate what the future will be, unless we keep on doing what we've tended to do.
Speaker 1:They're very practical sounding. I mean, everybody listening, if they've hung around for a while, this is all sounding very familiar, right? All this stuff seems to align so nicely, and the idea that we have agency here. Yeah, that I love the practical application here. Like well, let me show you that you actually do have some power here. You are able to enact a change.
Speaker 2:Only we can create our own change. No one can do it for us. Others can encourage, can encourage, guide, educate. I think that they're roles that you and I love to enact, to be to it. But unless someone takes action and works on themselves steadily and consistently, change won't happen. Now, sometimes a person will work on themselves and there's relapse. Hello, human, not unusual. So, as the song goes, I see the instruments on your wall, pick myself up, wipe myself down and start all over again.
Speaker 1:Why do I feel like, if I'm your patient or client, there's going to be singing at some point? I don't know why. I was in a webinar that Dr Dibby did a couple of weeks ago where you had everybody on the Zoom trying to sing together. That was great.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Why do you think that way Because you have evidence and maybe you also think I like to torture other people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that must be what it is people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that must be what it is. Must you said must? That's another thing I do. I jump on people, not necessarily literally but with humor, when I say people, clients or students, um, to help them be more aware of what can be thoughtless, habitual lingo. The must word, you know the should.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And one of the gifts of REBT and again, there are other philosophies and approaches who do this too, but I'm talking about REBT is the encouragement to be more mindful, to think about our thinking and to choose our words. Words do have power, you know, and very impactful, if not consciously, subconsciously, and so I do it with humour but if you're at one of my classes, like just yesterday at Columbia, someone, one of my students, was talking and said must, and I like must and it creates laughter. But there's a point to that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I kind of get that there's rigidity in must. I guess two key words would be must and should. Right, I should, or I must, or I have to, I can't.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and REBT asserts that one of the most powerful ways and the good news is it's not even difficult but it requires consistent effort which is identify the shoulds and musts, identify them, then dispute them, question them, then replace them and repeat, repeat, repeat. Not hard, but it's required to be done if one sincerely is motivated to change. Now I say that because some people love blaming, others love blaming life, are kind of addicted to being the victim and the attention that can bring. So if they're not motivated to change, they might say well, I hate being anxious, but if the payoff in their minds is maintaining unhealthy ways of being and feeling in order to get what they think are rewards, they probably won't change may get to change.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's that principle of autonomy you get to pick the path you want and we get to respect it, I guess. But yeah, that's really great. I love how you bring up the ties to. I think REBT is one of the most philosophical. Yes, yeah, so you could draw a straight line back to the Stoics and Taoism and Buddhism. We suffer because we resist, we go with the way of the Tao, we control what we can and leave the rest behind. You know, there's so much philosophy that I love so much.
Speaker 2:That's so true, al Albert Ellis. Dr Albert Ellis, that's okay, we can call him Al yeah. I was married to the guy. I slept with the guy. I didn't call him Dr Ellis, so I will call him.
Speaker 1:Al, we do not judge what people do in the privacy of their own home or anything, just saying, oh, feel free to judge.
Speaker 2:The judge is fantastic. Anyway, he said yeah, so he was literally a genius, a speed reader. So he was literally a genius, a speed reader, and as a child he would borrow as many books as his local library would allow him to borrow and read them, return them, read overnight. And he loved philosophy. Certainly, and you mentioned the Stoic philosophies and the Eastern philosophies. Definitely were influences and aspects, as he would acknowledge are embedded in the REBT philosophy and it's interesting I have one of his books that was published in the 1800s.
Speaker 1:Well, not one of his, but he didn't write it.
Speaker 2:No, he didn't write it, he owned it and it's by Epictetus the Enchiridon.
Speaker 1:That's the manual of life. It's right there, not the 1800s version, the new version it's on there.
Speaker 2:I'm not the 1800s version. The new version is on my shelf. Yeah, so the 1800 version is there and you know, gold around the board and beautiful, and the way Al would read books was he would underline bits that were significant. He would put crosses next to parts he didn't agree with and checks next to parts that he did, and then he would underline USA unconditional self-acceptance when what he was reading in the Terrigan or the Tao or Buddhist works and works by Lao Tzu, and yeah, so you're right that elements of those philosophies. Now there are differences as well. Like with Eastern philosophies, there's a lot in common between Tibetan Buddhism and REBT and actually the Dalai Lama, in one of his books called the Art of Happiness, acknowledges doctors Ellis and Becks.
Speaker 1:That's the book. There you go. All right, so we both get to.
Speaker 2:Are we surrounded by the same library?
Speaker 1:We seem to be. I haven't read too many books about Vikings, so I will admit that Neither have I.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think they probably did quite a bit of shooting in their canoes.
Speaker 1:Probably it worked for them evidently so the Dalai Lama was a fan, it sounds like, or he at least acknowledged the work.
Speaker 2:Yes, and yes, on my husband's 80th sorry, 90, I didn't know him when he was 80, but he was a lot older than me. Just want to say, in case anyone's wondering, I'm not 110 and this isn't great plastic surgery. I haven't had any plastic surgery, but anyway. No, the Dalai Lama sent Al a white silk scarf that he had blessed and Al was actually Al, and I had arranged to go visit him one weekend. His late brother had a temple, I think, in I want to say Iowa or Idaho, somewhere starting with an I, and we had planned to go. The Dalai Lama was there, and the night before the journey my husband was seriously ill, like he nearly lost his life, so we couldn't make it, but we were planning to go.
Speaker 2:They had much in common. Um, both of them and and they said this in different times um love to explore things. When our kids would pull clocks and toys apart in order to figure out how they worked and put them together again, both of them chose to work on a tendency to be angry and impatient. Even the masters make effort if they're human. That's the way it goes right.
Speaker 2:And both of them, like Tibetan Buddhism and REBT, embrace this attitude of unconditional other acceptance, where one can detest brutal behaviour but not detest the person doing it or hate them or dislike them intensely. And so, in the case of the Dalai Lama, he said, whilst he's against the policies of the Chinese government, he doesn't hate Chinese people. And my husband, sadly, at the end of his life, in the final years, his institute kind of fired him and kicked him out for no good reasons. And there was a lot of publicity at the time because my husband was an icon, deservedly, and New York Times and New York and there were articles and so forth, and I think it was the New York Times or the New Yorker magazine. One of the articles quoted my husband as saying I hate what they're doing.
Speaker 2:They, the certain directors of the institute that had kicked him out and wanted to change the mission statement Hate what they're doing. Al said but I don't hate them and that was true. I mean it wasn't just the master wanting to sound authentic, he was authentic. He didn't hate them. He even had compassion on their limited ways of thinking that and their ambition, their selfish in some ways, ambition that drove them to do some of the actions that they did. So yeah, Al and the Dalai Lama had many things in common.
Speaker 2:But I was going to say some of the things that are different. Really briefly, the, the absolutism in some tibetan buddhist encouragements, such strive for perfection reach the state of nirvana. So al would say he was skeptical that that was possible. Perfection, striving for excellence, you know, but? But it could be self-defeating and even harmful for a person to think they should attain a particular state that may realistically not be possible. Strive for excellence, yes. Strive to be perfect, uh, what's the line? Anxiety you know from. I must be perfect and if I'm not, hello. Anxiety.
Speaker 1:Yeah, especially for the folks struggling with GAD, that's a big component. Oftentimes it's interesting because and I'm a fan, I'm not picking anybody here, but if we look at things like mindfulness-based stress reduction and Jon Kabat-Zinn, who often gets and he deserves all the credit he gets for sure Well, he westernized, he made it western accessible, some of those eastern philosophies, but I might argue that he wasn't the first one to do that. You know I, because that language, the omission of the absolute achievement which, yeah, in western culture would get gripped onto as evidence of my that's how I know I'm doing better when I achieve you got to drop that in our culture, I think. So that was brilliant to leave that out. Now I'm just like fanboying here, that's so. Yeah, somehow we veered into just like a chat that I'm enjoying.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you guys are enjoying it, but, um, I think one of the cool things is when you look at the example that the Dalai Lama sets, that your husband set, that these people set. What it says again and again and again is I have a choice, I have agency, even in difficult situations because life is going to hand them to me. I have some agency in what I do with that. I don't like what they're doing to me, but I don't hate them, boy. There's such power in that, and that's applicable to people with anxiety disorders maybe not directly, but it's. That idea is applicable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and Drew, as you kind of touched on earlier, and then we got on another stream or a related stream. But a lot of people might think that it's not easy. How do I unconditionally accept someone who's done rotten things to me, who's really acted in brutal ways, and the people who are willing to accept the fact that hanging on to their toxic anger about the wrongdoer or their resentment, bitterness and what I'm about to say is a phrase that my husband created but it's now part of everyday lingo. So hanging on to that is like eating poison and waiting for the other person to die. It's not going to hurt them, but it can literally shorten one's life. So how does one achieve that? You know, look at murderers, rapists and so forth especially if they've impacted one personally and unconditionally accept them. Well, first of all, it's important to realise that unconditionally accepting another person doesn't mean you unconditionally accept their rotten behaviour, and REBT would certainly encourage seeking justice when possible, but from a state of stability rather than rage. And so when someone earnestly recognises that they've been holding onto this toxic emotion and it's hurting them and they don't want to, but they don't know how to drop it, I invite them to consider the following that again, it requires one wanting to change.
Speaker 2:So the evildoer and hear what I say, I didn't say the evil person, but it's a person who did some evil things in that instance or instances.
Speaker 2:That person was once a baby too, once a helpless little piece of biological life as well, just as any one of us was. But I ask a person to consider if any one of us had their biology, their neurobiological, chemical makeup, their genetic predispositions, if any one of us was brought up the way that they were brought up and got some toxic, negative, hateful messages, were indoctrinated, subtly or overtly, to believe they're worthless and useless and had some kind of bad influence in puberty, teenage years, adult years, if any one of us was thinking what they were thinking when they did the evil actions, isn't it possible that we would do a similar or the same thing? And I think if one is ruthlessly honest one would say yeah, it is likely, and that can allow us to be grateful for the fact that we may not have done a bad thing, to distinguish between that bad thing and the fact that where there's life there's hope. We can work on not repeating doing that bad thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love all this. So much of that would almost imply then, if I'm going to adopt unconditional other acceptance or unconditional self-acceptance, I'm going to forgive myself for the thing that causes me so much guilt. Because we do see, even though this is not necessarily anxiety disorder territory, you know, I don't have to tell you, you've been at this longer than I have that stuff often enters the chat anyway. There's not just panic attacks, there's other stuff that could be so helpful. But it implies you may have to just learn how to be with uncomfortable feelings. Sometimes I'm so angry at this person for what they did for me, to me. But if I'm going to move past that, I'm going to have to learn how to be with that anger and let it work itself out in a healthy way instead of hanging on to it as rage. And that's tough work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but oh, it's so worthwhile. So, anger about anger that's called like a secondary emotion or anxiety about anxiety. Oh, I'll never get over my anxiety. I've gone to therapy for three weeks and I'm still anxious. So the way to handle that secondary anxiety or unhealthy emotion is to deal with it first, before going back to the primary, by normalising it. It's not unusual, it's common.
Speaker 2:It can take time and to encourage, as you said, that unconditional self-acceptance I'm fallible, I have flaws. I've been doing this a long time, believing this a long time. It will take time. I can make effort, bit by bit. If I relapse, I can pick up and just self-nurturing, self-encouragement, and that often can lessen or remove the anxiety about the anxiety. And then we can get to the root thoughts behind the anxiety.
Speaker 2:Now, not to ignore, some people have an endogenous predisposition and sometimes medication helps. But sometimes medication is not necessary and just ongoing effort. And, by the way, medication alone is not empowering. It can bring a kind of stability. But if a person benefits from certain medication plus does the REBT or similar empowering, life-enhancing work that that leads to living comfortably in one's own skin, that is authentic empowerment.
Speaker 2:Um so, but you know, anxiety, it, it, and I'm preaching to the choir. I said, you know, so debilitating. And and really I invite any of your listeners who haven't done this yet, and to those who have done it to do it again just think about what's your attitude to yourself and how you should be in life, and my guess is that in all probability, you're being tougher on yourself than you are to your pet dog or cat, if you have pets or people. Why? How tragic. No one is more responsible for us than ourselves, except when we're little helpless babies. Except when we're little helpless babies. And so that we could innocently, naively, unthinkingly, be so cruel to ourselves? Whoa. So stop it, stop it.
Speaker 1:Have you ever seen the Bob Newhart? Stop it sketch. Okay, when we get done, I'm going to send that to you and you will laugh.
Speaker 2:I predict that I will laugh. Okay, when we get done, I'm going to send that to you and you will laugh.
Speaker 1:I predict that I will laugh. Yeah, very good. Anyway, this is such a great discussion, but we're kind of running out of time. We don't want to go too long and I don't want to take up the rest of your day, or I would just talk to you until the sun goes down, which it kind of already is over here.
Speaker 2:You know I've got an hour more sunlight. You can talk some more, Drew, or we can meet again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, maybe we'll have a part two of this. There's so much to cover. That's so great You're so generous with your time. I appreciate that. My pleasure, my pleasure. So I will come back and wrap that up, dr Debbie, thank you so much. You've been so lovely and I cannot wait to have you back on.
Speaker 2:Thank you Such a pleasure and I truly hope that some of the things that you and I talked about can touch a person's mind and heart and, if nothing else, they'd be easier on themselves every day. I look forward to our next chat.
Speaker 1:You're very welcome, thanks for coming and we are back. Well, that was a thrill for me because having Dr Jaffe Ellis Dr Debbie on the podcast was a real get for me. Like I really admire her work and I feel like it's such a privilege and an honor for me to get to talk to people of that stature in the field. I learned a lot from them. I learned a lot today about REBT that I didn't know before Dr Debbie came on, and hopefully you guys picked up a bunch of goodies as well. If you would like to know more about Dr Debbie and REBT and the work that she does, I will put a link to her website in the podcast notes. If you're listening as a podcast in your app on YouTube, I'll put them in the video description or you can go to get the full show notes for this episode to my website at theanxioustruthcom, slash 306. That will get you the notes for this episode and links to wherever Dr Debbie happens to be on the internet. So that is it. Hopefully this was as useful to you as it was fun for me.
Speaker 1:We will be back again in two weeks with another episode of the Anxious Truth. I don't know what it's going to be about, but it will be here. And if you kind of really dig what you got here today and you're watching on YouTube, maybe subscribe to the channel, like the video, leave a comment I promise I will get back into the comment section as soon as I can when time allows and, of course, if you're listening as a podcast on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or whatever platform lets you write a review or leave a rating, maybe leave a Firestar rating if you really like the podcast and if you really dig it and you're getting something out of it, maybe take a minute or two and write a review and tell people why you like it, because then more people find the podcast or the YouTube channel and then more people get help and they get the information, like Dr Debbie was kind enough to share with us today. And remember, as I sign off, I will remind you, as I try to every week, that no matter what you do today that moves you away from fear-based decisions and closer to decisions that are more in align with your values and the life that you actually want to live, if you can test the borders of what you think you can handle in terms of anxiety, fear, discomfort, that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Any little step you take today in that direction counts. They are additive. You learn from them. Every recovery starts with the tiniest little step, so it's okay to start small if you have to. That counts too. I'll cheer for you while you do it. I'll see you in two weeks. Thanks for coming by. See you next time.