Anxious people are often afraid of their emotions and they try really hard to not feel them or to control them or to get away from them. So this week, on the Anxious Truth, my friend Joanna Hardis is here and we're going to talk about the idea or the concept of emotional allowability. So let's get to it. Hello everybody, welcome back to the Anxious Truth. This is the podcast and the YouTube channel where we talk about all things anxiety, anxiety disorders and anxiety recovery and, I guess, mental health in general. Anyway, I am Drew Linsalata, creator and host of the Anxious Truth podcast and YouTube channel. I am a therapist practicing in the area of anxiety and anxiety disorders in the state of New York in the US of A. I am a former sufferer of panic disorder, agoraphobia, OCD, depression for many years of my life, on and off, but better now for a very long time.
Speaker 1:I'm an author on this topic, a psychoeducator, an advocate and clearly a guy with a microphone that hosts this podcast and another one called Disordered, which you'll find at disorderedfm. So if you like the anxious truth, you'll love Disordered. This week we're going to talk about the concept or the idea of emotional allowability. I'm going to be joined by my friend, joanna Hardest. Joanna is a very well-respected and long-experienced therapist practicing in Cleveland, ohio, cleveland Rocks. Joanna specializes in the treatment of anxiety and OCD as well. She is a colleague, she is my friend. I am proud to call her a friend. I trust her. She is not a huckster, she's not just trying to sell stuff. She knows of what she speaks and she speaks often about the concept of emotional allowability. Now she kind of took it out of sort of the relationship sphere as an alternative to the idea of emotional availability. But learning to be emotionally allowable, which is accepting that you're going to have emotions, even really difficult ones that are hard to feel, is really important. In our community, right In a population full of people who are struggling with chronic and distorted anxiety, who often learn to become really afraid of their emotions because they instantly morph into anxiety or fear or even panic, the idea of becoming more open to emotional experiences, especially intense and difficult ones seems daunting. So we're going to talk about the idea of emotional allowability and how the idea that we can prevent or control emotions is kind of silly anyway, because we just can't, at least not in our view. So we will get to Joanna in a second.
Speaker 1:Just a quick reminder that the Anxious Truth is more than just this podcast episode or this YouTube channel. There's a ton of more other goodies and resources, most of which are free, and if there is a cost with any of them, it's a pretty low cost. There's books and workshops and things of that nature and all the other podcast episodes and my social media stuff, and I'm knocking stuff over on my desk at my website. Go check it out, it's all at theanxioustruthcom. Avail yourself of all the goodies free and otherwise. Just wanted to remind you to do that. And yeah, let's get Joanna on.
Speaker 2:We will talk about emotional allowability and then I will come back in the end and we'll wrap the whole things up.
Speaker 1:Bruh, what's up, bruh? Bruh? I call Joanna bruh, she calls me bruh. It's probably not right, but that's what we do anyway. Emotional allowability let's get right into it. I want to dive right in because this has been like a little bit of a pet peeve for both of us for a long time. In our little rant sessions that we conduct sometimes, yeah, the idea and I understand like people who are really agitated, suffering, afraid they're not in a good place, they just want relief. They often feel like they're trying to control their emotions.
Speaker 2:They should be able to control their emotions. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Are they controllable?
Speaker 2:No, of course not.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:No, well, let's see, let's okay, let's, let me think about that. No, we can't control, like you know, emotion, a lot of the times emotion, you know we might feel something, we're going to feel something. That being said, though, we can control how we respond and if we're going to amplify the emotion or if we're going to try and do something which might make the emotion, like, dial it down.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I do believe that once we feel it, we can make it worse or make it better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which I think makes sense, and sometimes I think that the target that people accidentally start to shoot at is or maybe it's a better way to describe it is if somebody finds that they're experiencing an emotion that they don't really like. They might even be afraid of it, because you know as well as I do, in our population people would start to fear their emotions. Sometimes they will declare failure just because they had that emotion, like they should have had some sort of way to engineer themselves or their environment or their day so that that emotion would never get triggered right, right, right, right.
Speaker 2:You see it a lot with parents oh, that's a good point, you're right yes, parents that like I should always be on, or I should be happy, or my child should never see me upset or anxious or sad or human, or or, you know, feeling a bad, like a bad emotion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's a really good point. So something or other, that we get trapped into this cycle where it's like, oh, if we do it right, those emotions we don't like, whatever they happen to be, it doesn't matter won't ever get triggered, we can actually prevent ourselves from making that emotion. Yeah right, I always say I think emotions are like thoughts we don't get to pick. We could get to pick what we think about. We never get to pick what we don't think about, and I love that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, With emotions. Like you don't get to pick to not have an emotion, I don't even think you get to pick to have one. To be honest with you.
Speaker 2:I don't, I really don't either. Yeah, and I think it's hard because, like getting back to parents, like same is true for your kids.
Speaker 1:I mean, oh right, like you, should they run. You mean the trap becomes like oh, my kids should also always be happy and always be positive and always.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah Cause, think about a lot of parents struggle when their kids are upset and think about it Like how many times and I you know I'm not saying like I like seeing my kids upset, not at all but like how many times do we swoop in as parents Like, oh my gosh, my kid's upset. Like I have to swoop in as parents like, oh my gosh, my kid's upset. Like I have to swoop in and make it better or take away their distress or or fix it. Or like we have a hard time seeing our kids upset too and we think our kids should always be happy or it's our job to keep make our kids happy yeah, or sometimes I think it comes out we're getting deep.
Speaker 1:We are getting deep and like, as a, I get it. I'm gonna call your kids, though like, did your mom try to make you feel better?
Speaker 2:she just let you feel bad no, they'd be like she's a bitch, she's horrible.
Speaker 1:Don't be friends with my mom. I think, as parents, I get it I. I have two girls, like you do.
Speaker 1:You don't want to just stand there and watch them struggle at all no yeah, but I think and then we don't want ourselves to struggle, but I think part of sometimes what happens in that emotional control thing is you also try to argue the not argue but like convince the person out of the emotion. Yeah Well, like oh, but you're so lucky and you have so much to be grateful for and there's so much going on, and like that was so much fun yesterday, remember. So like you're trying to convince the person that the emotion they're having should go away, or this, yeah, totally or problem solve it yeah, weird because it leaves us having this weird like toxic relationship with our own emotions yeah, yeah, versus, just like.
Speaker 2:Can we just learn to coexist with them?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And coexist with them, which helps us. Then let other people coexist with theirs too.
Speaker 1:We are, and we are going beyond. Just like you getting better, but like we getting better. I agree with that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know what? I was in a conversation not too long ago where there was just some conflict going on in a group and which which happens between people sometimes, and there was a lot of argument over whether what? Why is she upset? Why is he upset? He doesn't have a right to be upset. So I think you're right the understanding that, like hey hang on a second here you don't get to decide if another person should or should not be feeling a particular emotion.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Cause they just happen. No matter what there's just, they're just going to happen.
Speaker 2:Right and oftentimes I mean this is sort of my lens and it's kind of annoying for people probably, but like when we're distress intolerant for some people, not always, but like it makes it. If we can't handle how we feel inside, it may make it harder to tolerate when someone else is feeling upset.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's probably a direct link there, I bet. I bet there's a correlation there. If you have a hard time with your own emotions, you may be really uncomfortable when someone else is feeling upset.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's messy.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it speaks a little bit to also the whole and we'll get to it. We'll get to the concept of emotional allowability, because I think it's a great, great, great concept. That's in your book actually, but sometimes it even comes down to the whole. But emotions but why do we want to control or prevent or preempt the emotions? Because sometimes they're really hard. They're really hard, they're like really difficult.
Speaker 2:Nobody likes to feel them. Well, I mean, you know, we like to feel the good emotions, but we definitely don't like to feel the bad ones, right? But how many times do we just make it so much worse?
Speaker 1:You know well, that's one of those principles that you and I, we landed on those a long time ago. Actually, people way smarter than us landed on them about 3000 years ago. Yes, so I can't claim any, you know. Oh, let's just call it a theory and write a book about it.
Speaker 2:Um, oh gosh.
Speaker 1:I'm going to say, I'm going to get you started in a little rant anyway.
Speaker 1:Um yeah, and we do make it so much worse. Like this emotion is here right now, so like it would be way better if I kind of let it play itself out the way it's supposed to, and whatever that means. Maybe it's crying, or maybe it's, you know, journaling, or maybe it's having a really difficult talk with someone that you care about, a friend or a family member or something. Instead of trying to make it go away, or like I don't hear you, or like I'm going to push it away, let me choose happiness instead. Let me go do something. Allowability. I love this. If you're not going to control your emotions, then how do you? Allowability is great concept.
Speaker 2:I know, but it doesn't sound like good for a shirt. It's not going to like sell me a million books like let them theory. Maybe we can like no one's going to be tattooing that shit on their arms.
Speaker 1:I got some space in my left arm. Maybe I'll throw it on there, I don't know. I'll help you. You'll wear buds, you know it's fine.
Speaker 2:I will do it. Well, it came from my like. It came from, of course, something that annoyed me Speaking of resisting this idea of like emotional availability. Idea of like emotional availability, because every because I hear so much um, either personally or professionally, like I want someone who's emotionally available, either people would say, like my parents weren't emotionally available, my partner's not emotionally available, that makes no fucking sense to me. What that is like? I don't know what that means, and I'm sure I've said it, like because things that are available, they're like I think of. Like my library book is available for pickup, my my to go order is available, it's ready. Like emotions aren't available. Like no, it doesn't make any sense they're there.
Speaker 1:No matter whether you think they're available or not, they're there right, your breathing isn't of, we don't say your respiratory available yeah your, your immune system available.
Speaker 2:It's just there, like it, so it makes. No, it's one of those things that we say but we don't think about if it makes any sense. So that's where it came from. I felt like the more, the more thing, the more appropriate thing is, like we want to be allowable for emotions, which means like we want to be able to, to experience the alphabet of them, not just the, not just the ones that are more pleasant to experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes a good point. I guess in that relationship that's because we hear I think I hear it most often there Like I need somebody that's emotionally available is really kind of a relationship or dating thing in a lot of times. Yeah, but so what does somebody if we did? Okay, fine, let's say you want to use the term allowable which are available, which I agree seems ridiculous because they're there or not, whether or not you want to be available for them.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:So what does that really mean in a relationship sense? I think it tends to mean like I want somebody that, when I'm having emotions, will will let me have them or support me or validate them. I don't know what it means, but is that emotional? Or or are they looking for like no, no, no, I want somebody who displays their emotions. I want a partner that is emotional so I can see their emotions.
Speaker 2:Right. I think people want someone who. I think you've got it. I think, when people say it, they want someone who not. I think both that can express and feel the range of emotion and be there when they and tolerate when they experience the range of emotion.
Speaker 1:And that's emotional availability, which really is just emotion. Yeah, this is just allowability, because in a relationship, you're both going to have emotions, whether you want it, whether you're available for them or not, they're going to be there. So how much am I going to run from them, hide them, suppress them? Or ask you to suppress yours, right, yours make mine, and I don't like mine, you know. Or yours are harsh in my mellow, so your emotions are ruining my day oh my gosh, yes yeah, too much right yeah, you're too much.
Speaker 1:So I think the point you made earlier was pretty good, like if you get good, if we get more emotionally allowable, then we get better at being allowable to other people's emotion or open to other people's emotions too right, yeah hmm, what about now we're?
Speaker 1:we're going to go off on a little bit of tangent, but what it made me think was emotional intelligence starts this down like one of those ridiculous terms too. Then, like it's emotional intelligence, like and I know there's books written that about this, and I know that there are people right now they're getting a little bit angry at me because don't be coming after my emotional intelligence. But is it intelligence or is it just, again, allowability? Like the person who's emotionally intelligent experience, you know, seems to be good at experiencing their emotions without maybe getting carried away by them or, you know, making rash decisions. So does that make them emotionally intelligent or just non-resistant?
Speaker 2:Right, like what is emotional intelligence. Is that just allowability?
Speaker 1:I think it's pretty good. I wasn't expecting to go here, but if I was pressed for an answer, I think emotional intelligence is not actually an achievement or a skill. It's actually doing less about your emotions because you're just allowing them to be organically. It's not a special skill that people develop where they learn to manipulate them and read into them properly and somehow process them correctly, like there's a correct way. I mean, there might be an incorrect way, but there's definitely no correct way.
Speaker 2:I never read the book.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's a ton of books on emotional intelligence and it was a hot topic. It's, it always is, but it was a hot topic for a little while. But it's allowed again. It's allowability or flexibility yeah.
Speaker 1:So for somebody who's listening to us who I mean our audience is our audience and they have a really hard time. And you know, it's something that I didn't expect to find when I turned on a microphone for the first time 11 years ago however long, it was 15 years ago, sorry, yeah, 15 years ago I started talking to a dumb microphone about anxiety, but it was 2010. Yeah, so I did not expect to hear I mean, I, it was my experience that I was an anxious person. Every, every emotion did turn into fear. Hear, I mean, it was my experience that I was an anxious person.
Speaker 1:Every emotion did turn into fear instantly. It would instantly morph into anxiety, panic and fear, but I never thought of the whole like, oh, I'm afraid of my emotions, but many people listening to us right now are they're very afraid to get too emotional because they feel like they're going to be broken by it or overwhelmed by it or somehow swept away. They won't be able to control themselves when they get too emotional, I don't know. So how did they become more allowable then?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, part of it is that's a great question. Part of it is, you know, I think, learn. You know learning emotion regulation skills. I mean, I think part of it is understanding that, for the experience of an emotion, we can't control what shows up. Right, I'm feeling, you know you're going to feel an emotion, but then we do have the ability to control if it's, if we're going to dial it up or dial it back.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it probably starts with with the thing you just said, which is we don't get to decide not to feel an emotion. They're going to show up whenever they do, organically. And if you are going to hang on like hot death to the idea that you should be able to prevent the emotions you like, then you're going to start off on the bad foot, because the minute it shows up, you're ready and like stomping your feet and like gritting your teeth and like, oh, why is this? This shouldn't be here, I shouldn't know what's wrong with me.
Speaker 2:Exactly. And now your discomfort level gets agitated up. Yes, yeah, yeah, and I think you know and people will say, well, you know, well, it just like it comes and it's a hundred and it's like, okay, well, it may feel like that, and certainly some people are more sensitive and so they may. You know. So some people trajectory, they may bounce higher quicker and come down faster or slower, so that trajectory is different. But you know, we all have that ability to, based on our behaviors, dial up or dial back.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So it is a question of like okay, well, once you notice what's going on, then what are you doing? So, if you are paying a ton of attention that time and attention thing that we always talk about if you are focusing on how much you hate, how you're feeling, or like, oh my God, this sucks. Why does this always happen to me? How long is this going to last Is my fuck, my day is ruined. Boom, it goes up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's also that that fear sometimes, at least in our population, where, well, if it's a really difficult emotion that I don't like, or it's really scary, it's really just hard to deal with. If I don't run away from it, it's just going to keep going up, like there's no ceiling to this emotion. So like, ah, if I fully let myself feel this emotion, it might go into some sort of like red zone and break me, or or never end, or Right?
Speaker 2:That's the story of the emotion.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. That's not the emotion itself, you're right, that's the belief about or the story around the emotion Right right, right Right.
Speaker 2:And so you know, I think, then it's like, okay, I'm feeling it, yeah, but then we have to like, zoom out too, like then it's the coexisting with it, like, yes, I'm feeling it and you know it's the choice point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think there probably is. This is a hard one because you know you can't really measure it. But if you hooked a thousand of us up to all kinds of electrodes and stuff and measured the physiology while we were experiencing very difficult emotions, I bet we would see a very narrow range. Yes, there would be a wide expression like heart rate and galvanic skin response and respiration rate and all that stuff, but it's there's no sense. It's not like oh my goodness, those people over on the end their heart rates went to 300 and they blew up. There's no such thing. There's actually a limit to the amount that we can physiologically experience. Then it becomes the perception of like oh no, this time it's too intense.
Speaker 2:Right, that's the story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but it never is. There's no such thing as just never ending intensity.
Speaker 2:Exactly Right. That's the story of it. So if, if it's like you know and this is where you know being able to practice what you know in non, practice with you know in non, I mean during those times, it is being able to say, okay, you look, you can do anything for 15, 30 seconds and they're always going to be the yes butters.
Speaker 2:And like so there's always going to be a yes butter, but you can always do something for 15, 30 seconds. So you can like can you, when you're feeling that way, still zoom out and say what is the next right step for me? Because if I stay in my head and I focus, it is going to dial up. So if I, what can you know to dial it back down, I have to. What is the next best step? And that may be what. What was I doing before this happened? And go do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And it may be 15 seconds, fine.
Speaker 1:And then we get to that paradox of like the more you try to dial it down or deny it, the more it's going to feel like it gets more and more intense.
Speaker 2:Well, we're not trying to deny, we're just trying to like, do the next, like just go do it, do it.
Speaker 1:Maybe right now I just have to be angry. Okay, there's a, there's a lot I, I, to me there's a burden that's lifted when somebody can reach the conclusion Like, I guess, right now I'm just going to be angry, or just right now I'm just not going to be angry, or just right now.
Speaker 2:I'm just not going to like myself very much, okay. Well, go be angry, and you still need to live life.
Speaker 1:Right. Even if living life was just deciding to sit on the floor and breathe or whatever you want to do, that's okay. That's still living life. But I like the idea of the story of the emotion. If I get caught up in the story of the emotion, I'm never going to be able to feel like I can handle this emotion.
Speaker 2:No, and that's dialing it up. Anytime you plug into the story, you're going to dial it up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's so. If you're going to learn to be emotional, there's a couple of I think there's a couple of beliefs that get challenged in the idea of emotional allowability. Number one I like how you mentioned the yes but there's always a yes but. And if you're listening and you want to say yeah, but this is where, like, we hit the limits of what we can learn in a podcast or on a YouTube video, right, that's when you spend time working with an actual helper to investigate where yeah but comes from and how to get past it. But there's there's the belief that like no, no, no, my emotions are more intense. Or another belief is but I am inherently, structurally incapable of handling them. And I think the third one is like, but wouldn't I fix something I don't like? That's the mastery argument or the mastery belief. I should just be able to turn the right knobs, right, it's a problem. I fix a problem, don't I? So those three, those are three really challenging things that you have to challenge to become more emotionally allowable.
Speaker 2:Yes, and you know cause there's always the yes butters, and you know I would say sometimes they're arguing with the content.
Speaker 1:Oh yes, Because the emotion over this thing, but that's really important.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, great, and the content isn't what we're talking about. I want it, like you know, and again, your point about this is we're working with a therapist is really important, because we're not like the content doesn't matter. This is the process that that I want you know that. That is really important because my guess is those people, regardless of the content, they're, yes, butting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're probably right, and but the content often does drive the yes but the resistance there.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:But this is my health we're talking about, but this is my kids we're talking about. That's a good point, yeah, but it doesn't matter. Yeah, the content can be important without automatically assuming that the emotion is the problem. The emotion is really just a reflection of something that's important to you, right? So I'm like, okay, well, well, it can. It's, it's allowed to be important, but it still doesn't mean that you get to manipulate or stop or control the emotion.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly, and the process is still what happens when you hit something that that really is challenging, you know, and it's like, oh you, it's like you find a way to resist it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even when that resistance strategy or being emotionally unallowable or unavailable or whatever whatever you want to say emotionally unallowable is pointless because it's there anyway, Right, yeah, so there's no point in. It's like the I can't accept my anxiety. Well, I can't allow my emotions, but they're there anyway. Wouldn't it seem like the best move is to try to open up to that experience a little bit more and say well, since they're coming anyway, I'm just going to have to learn how to get better at having them, regardless of what the content is or what the context is? That they appear in the process of being emotional is still something you have to learn how to do.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and you know I spent many years in this. Yes, budding, I still find myself there a lot and like you gotta have, you gotta be bathing in self-compassion too. Like it's like like approaching it with a lot of curiosity. I would say Like, if you find yourself listening and you're like, oh, this is kind of me Like really trying to, you know, like giving yourself grace, because my guess is this pattern developed, you know, for a reason, and it's adaptive and there's probably a lot of fear, obviously there's tons of fear, and and so to really approach it with grace and compassion and curiosity and and and you know, think about, okay, this is versus judgment, and like, oh my gosh, how so fucked up, which is how I always think of myself.
Speaker 1:Actually it's you know, and I'm fortunate to call you a friend. You are pretty self-critical. You go there pretty quick. You're pretty self-deprecating but, so there's the.
Speaker 1:I want to resist the experience of the emotion itself, and then I want to completely deny my ability to be worthy or capable or I'm just going to call it a personal failure not only to have the emotion but to fail to handle it. And you're right If you don't. And you know what we all just arrived here. That comes, who said that that's the CFT guy, compassion focused RV guy, guy, like what, if we just agree that, yeah, I think that might have been it.
Speaker 2:I have the book I'm reading the book.
Speaker 1:I haven't finished it yet, but, like I love the idea that, well, you just arrived here. Well, what's wrong with me? Why do I get carried with my way, with my emotions? Why can't I handle it? Why can't I let go? Why, well, you just arrived here? There's about a billion variables that put you right here. Let's start where you are and like work forward, right.
Speaker 2:So yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, biology and culture and like environment and all of that stuff, like lessons that you learned, experiences, like there's a ton of things that got you to be emotionally unallowable. But okay, so now let's work on it. How's that?
Speaker 2:Right and none of us, let's remember, none of us, I don't think, certainly not. Our generation grows up learning how to experience emotions, so it's not like we ever learned this stuff.
Speaker 1:I think you're right. You know the only person. Yeah, I want to. I don't want to like overgeneralize, right? We all do seem to talk about this Like it seems like too many people will say how come no one ever taught me this? For it to be coincidence, however, that's not scientific. You know, we talked about it Frickin Mr Rogers. Mr Rogers would talk about emotions and stuff. Remember Mr Rogers? I mean, he was a legend, right?
Speaker 1:So when we were kids, boring growing up well, mr Rogers was definitely an acquired taste, but there were, there were places where you might get those hints. And if you grew up in a household where your parents are very emotionally allowable and in tune and like, taught you that it's okay to have your emotions and let them ride and let them flow, congratulations, that's really great. They gave you a leg up. A lot of people didn't really get that, especially in the West, where we are the masters of the universe and we default to control and mastery.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that's kind of tough and I think for a younger generation. I mean, I'll throw it out there. I can't tell you the number of people that I work with who are younger than us and this isn't a get off my lawn moment, even though it sort of sounds like one, and you can interpret that if you want. That will automatically go to the internet or social media for instructions on how to operate their emotions optimally. There must be an optimal way to process an emotion or control an emotion or pick the right outcome or always be in the right lane and the right mindset, and that's just ludicrous in plain English. On a podcast I can say that it's ludicrous. That's a pointless exercise, so I don't know, emotionally allowable. Like you know, it's about trying to control your emotions less, even though that's really scary sometimes.
Speaker 2:It is yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and, and, and, and, and, and, you know being okay with having them, like you're not a failure. It doesn't, it's like a, it's like the weather, you know, in a way like Absolutely. Emotions don't say who you are. They're just saying what you're experiencing and what you're feeling in a moment. So you know, being afraid doesn't mean you are weak, it just means you're afraid. So Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I feel like so much of what I do is just helping people like tolerate reality and getting out of the business of suffering.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because they're resisting or trying to bend that and I'm a reality bender, don't get me wrong. For many years I was, but, like you're right, so much of the suffering is based on like nope, not not doing it, not going to do it, so like OK, but what are your choices then?
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah, cause we make it so much worse with the story we put on and the predictions and the meaning, and it's just I feel like the more I do this work, it's just like helping people get out of suffering and just accept whatever the reality is, and I feel like that's kind of my like, what I try and do in my own life.
Speaker 1:Let's go Like we're about a half hour in, so we'll wrap it up, but let's, let's try one more topic and let's see where this goes.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I know that there are people only because I know that there are many people listening to us that are going to raise this objection or at least throw it out there, you know, in the comments section on YouTube. And that is. Emotions are really hard. What about if you're empathic or an HSP and you have to carry all the emotions of the world? Is that different?
Speaker 2:bro, I don't know like. Um, I love how you started the statement with bro. It's so funny, I say because I think my son says it like really and so I say it jokingly to him all the time. Um, I don't really understand when people say they absorb all the emotions in a room.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, I hear you.
Speaker 2:I know people who like highly sensitive people I get that and like extrasensory nervous systems. I don't know. What do you think?
Speaker 1:Oh, I don't know. Again, I don't want to invalidate anybody's experience. I wouldn't claim status as an HSP or an empath in any way. But that doesn't mean that you know, my experience doesn't mean it's your experience, but I tend to and this only comes from the experience of working with a few people who would plant that flag right and say like my yes, but is that an? I'm an HSP or an I'm, I'm empathic, I'm an empath, so what you're talking about doesn't, doesn't apply, because I carry the emotions of the world with me. Okay, well, if, whether, if you feel so, maybe it's a matter of degree is there a limit to emotional allowability? I don't know that.
Speaker 1:So maybe it's a question more than something we're going to throw out there as opinion or clinical fact, because neither of us seem to have a good answer for it, but you but how does somebody who identifies as an empath or an HSP feel about emotional liability when a lot of times, that population seems to spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to protect themselves from emotions? Is that wrong, I don't know right, so why don't?
Speaker 2:I I don't know. I mean, I know, I mean, and I think you know what gets me curious or where my head just kind of naturally goes is and I hate to bring it back to parenting I mean, I think I'm working on the second book, which is the parenting stuff. Sometimes parents hold a belief like I can only be OK if you're OK, if, like my child's okay, right. And so I wonder if there's and that can be problematic, you know that kind of like belief.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I hear you.
Speaker 2:And so I wonder if an empath or an HSP has and I don't know has like a similar belief system, like, because that would be like that would be really really challenging and hard if they can't be okay and regulated Like, how do you regulate yourself if, like you know, everyone around you isn't regulated Like? I think? I don't know.
Speaker 1:That's a really good question. That's just a whole other topic. I didn't need to open this can of worms or what. Maybe we'll go there one day, but it does sound interesting from an emotional allowability. We just spent a half hour talking about how you have to open up to emotions and let them flow and don't don't resist them.
Speaker 1:But for those of you who feel like, yeah, but you don't understand, I feel it so deeply or I feel everybody's emotions. You're right, is it a function of? Well, if your emotions are in a negative side, and I'm seeing that, then I feel a certain way and I can't handle that. Or maybe it is actually an experience that you and I will never understand, where you actually do feel, like you feel the other person's emotion. That could be, I guess, and the other explanation that I always throw out there and this again, we're just opening stuff to talk about more than anything else is. Or were you in an environment where you had to watch other people's emotions Because that was a safety issue, and I get that, and that leads you to believe like, no, no, I read everybody's emotions. Well, you had to to try and stay safe, right?
Speaker 2:Right, that's a different story. I think that so Right, and so many people like, yeah, or they, you know they become, you know the way that they protect themselves is they become people pleasers. I mean, I think it's just so complicated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, who knows, I'm glad I like we spent six minutes on that with getting absolutely nowhere.
Speaker 2:Nowhere.
Speaker 1:But it's you know, those people are listening and they matter and we care about them yeah. Right. So we do understand that maybe the idea of like being fully and utterly emotional allowable might feel really dangerous to certain people for that particular reason. Don't have any good answers, but we can talk about it.
Speaker 2:But I think okay, so there's also cause we have. You know we have to be able to experience emotions, name what emotions we're feeling. We also have the ability to regulate emotions. You know, tolerate distress, but there's nothing that says that like we have to take other people's emotions on yeah, and I think that would be the debate then for the people who say no.
Speaker 1:No, you know, this is not a choice, this is just the way. I am okay, fair enough.
Speaker 2:That's where I'm getting yeah, I think that's why I lose it a little bit right, because I think then then is it a boundary, it then is like about, like about that, because I mean I work a lot with people about boundaries and I don't know, like energetically, are we talking boundaries or?
Speaker 1:I don't know. It's a good question, all right. So HSPs and empaths if you're on YouTube, in the comments section, let us know or, like, click on the little link in the podcast description. You can send me a text. I won't know who you are and I can't text you back, but if you want to send an HSP, this is fascinating. It really is Right so.
Speaker 2:I mean yeah, cause I'm. I also think about like I've been a therapist almost like 30 years at this point and I used to take on way more client stuff than I do now. Now I you know I've got really good boundaries, so I like I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, ooh, that's a good point. We're going to have to shelve this. We'll talk about it some other time for sure, because you're right In the helping professions, at first you're much more susceptible to taking on what you're hearing from your clients, and then, as you get somehow or other, that changes over time or it doesn't, and people wind up in our profession burnt out early.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and yeah, and I think that's a boundary and an experience and yeah, so I don't know, I think it's really fascinating.
Speaker 1:We should do a whole thing on that right.
Speaker 2:We have so many places to go with this.
Speaker 1:Very good. Well, thank you, Joanna, I appreciate it. You know what, If you just listen to it, when we're done I'll come back and do a little 45 second wrap up. I'll give you all Joanna's links and the website and all that stuff, her book and everything. But like it's always great when you come on.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's so fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So that was really great. We almost didn't even make it. We scheduled, but never really scheduled. Joanna's like uh, hello, yeah, let me hang on. Let me turn on the camera it again, and maybe we'll talk about HSPs and empaths and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:So I don't know anything about. I'd have to do some research.
Speaker 1:Well, enjoy your trip, wherever it is you're going.
Speaker 2:So I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:I'll see you when you get back. All right, guys, I'll come back in a second to wrap it up. Okay, we are back. As always, a great discussion with Joanna, again proud to call her a friend and a collaborator and a colleague. I trust Joanna. When she says things, I listen, and when she says things, I listen and I would suggest you listen too, because she does know what she's talking about and, again, she's always above board. That's what I love about the people I collaborate with most. None of them are snake oil salesmen or salespeople I guess the better term would be these days. And yeah, so Joanna's really great and I love the way she conceptualizes emotional allowability, because in the end, that is really what it is. If we're going to try and resist that part of our humanness, the emotional part, then bad things happen. So, as difficult as it may be, working on being more allowable, being open to emotions and working through them in whatever organic way each particular situation or context requires, is a really valuable thing. It tends to make life better on the whole. So I think this was a really good conversation to have.
Speaker 1:If you want to know more about Joanna, or the work that she does, or she wrote a book called Just Do Nothing, which is an awesome book. In fact, I produced the audio book, so it's a really great book, and I'm not just saying that because she's my friend. She's working on another book which I think is parenting focused. That'll be out in a while. But yeah, she's great on social media too. So if you want to find Joanna, you can go to JoannaHardestcom or just follow the links in the video description or in the podcast description. I will have those links as well, and if you're on my website, I'll have it on the blog post that goes with this. And, yeah, check her out, give her a follow on social, tell her I said hi, she will appreciate that, and that's it. That is this episode of the Anxious Truth in the books. I don't even know what episode number this is. That's why I didn't say the number, because I'm not sure when we're going to release it. But we're done with our conversation about emotional allowability.
Speaker 1:I hope it has been helpful to you. I hope you got something that you can take with you and use in some way shape or form, or maybe just something that made you think. And what I will do is ask you what I always ask, which is if you're listening to this podcast, spotify or iTunes, apple podcasts, and you can rate or review the podcast, leave a five-star rating if you like it and if you really really like it, maybe take a minute or two and write a short review of why you like the podcast, because that helps even more people find it and then more people get help, which is why I started doing this anyway so many years ago. And, of course, if you're watching on YouTube and you haven't subscribed to the channel, why not Just hit the little button? It's only one click for you. It means a lot for me. Hit the notification bell so you know when I release new videos and new podcast episodes and leave a comment.
Speaker 1:Ask a question, if you can. It is overwhelming. The comment section can be kind of overwhelming, but I do my best to go back through and read through them and respond to the ones that I can in an effective way. So I can't get to everything, but if you have a question, I promise I will at least try to check it out and that's it.
Speaker 1:And I will leave you with one little reminder about emotional allowability, even though your emotions might seem like they're going to break you or overwhelm you or might never end or are harmful or unbearable in some way, at least today.
Speaker 1:Consider the possibility that that might not be a correct conclusion to draw about your ability to have and handle emotions. If today the best you can do is to just turn a little bit in the direction of emotional allowability, after being highly resistant to and trying to avoid or control your emotions for many, many years, maybe then you're winning Just a slight change in direction, and moving in that direction and at least considering or opening yourself up to the possibility of becoming more emotional allowability allowable is a good step. It might not be a huge step, but that step is the first step always, and it counts, just like every other tiny step you take away from the fear, away from the anxiety and toward a recovered state in the life that you really want. They all count. Keep going, do the best you can. I know you can do it. Thanks for hanging out this week. I will see you again in two weeks for some conversation. I don't know what it will be. We're out, take care of yourself.