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S1E5. Tonisha, Part 2: Black American - Serving in the United States Air Force

• Jess Lin • Season 1 • Episode 5

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Keywords
military service, Iraq, personal growth, travel, advice for youth, military experiences, career transitions, life lessons, personal development, military culture

Summary
In this conversation, Tonisha shares her journey into the military, detailing her enlistment, experiences in Iraq, and the challenges she faced during her service. She reflects on her decision to leave the military, the lessons learned, and offers advice to young people considering military service. Additionally, she discusses her current projects and aspirations, emphasizing personal growth and the importance of making informed choices.


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AI Generated transcript may contain errors


You're listening to Cultureful. I'm your host, Jess Lin.  This is part two of my conversation with Tonisha. If you haven't listened to part one,  I suggest you navigate back to the feed and listen to part one first.  In this episode, we get an overview of Tonisha's service, consider the realities of military life,  and hear Tonisha's advice to young people considering that path.


I hope you enjoy, and I'm wishing you and yours happy holidays.


This conversation has been really organic and we're kind of flowing here and there. And at the same time, I want some, you know, the key facts. What were the years that you served? I went into the military February 14th, 2001. I laugh because- Valentine's Day. Yes. And I actually was dating someone that-


And so I went to MEPS, like you go to MEPS and you do, you take the AGI, it's like a whole day there of like testing and strength testing and visual, like eye stuff, ear stuff, like all kinds of stuff. And so towards, at the end you go and you're like, okay, and they're like, okay, you're good. You know, when do want to go? And I'm like, whatever. I actually had to wait. So let me, so I graduated at 17. I had to wait to turn 18.


to go and do all that. So I already was waiting, I don't know how many months, because in my mind I was like, I'm gonna graduate, I'm gonna go in right away. So when I go in there, they're like, we have this date. I'm like, okay, cool. Which was still some months out, but I was like, cool, I'm gonna take the first, you know, whatever. So I get home and my friend calls and is like, how'd it go? And I was like, yeah, leave this date. And she was like, you know what day that is, right? And I was like, no, like not even.


And I was like, And I was like, well, let's see like now. Like, you can't change it. So I feel like I'll always remember that date for a couple of reasons. February 14, 2001. And then I got out... My official exit date was January something of 2010. But I stopped working... Let me see. November, I think, of 2009? I saved up...


enough leave and stuff to leave over 30 days before. So that was over eight years of service. And is that what you had in mind when you joined? Or did you think you were going to be in until you retired? Yeah, no, it was not what I had in mind. So it was it was eight years, eight years, 10 months and 23 days. And that's not what my initial plan was like, I'm going to go do


the four, the initial contract four years. And my mom was like, I'm gonna go to these four and then I'm gonna go to college and then I'm gonna go do whatever. And so that's not what happened. My first enlistment, which was the first four year that I signed up for, I went to Basic, Joseph, I got stationed at Nellis, which is on the edge of Las Vegas.


And so as an 18 year old, that's kind of like, what am supposed to do? So, cause you know, 21, so you're not 21 yet. So I'm like, okay, cool. Funny enough, those of us who weren't 21, we found some like cool stuff to do. Like when the war chose what happened, we'd go sit down at MGM and just like star spot and like be like, hey, over here, this first over here. So we, you know, we entertained ourselves in like a good way, not just like the getting into trouble. So,


I stationed in Nellis and then in that first enlistment I got sent to Iraq because as you know that was 2000, yeah February 2001. So fast forward to I think I got to my base literally right before September 11th and my birthday is September 15th so that was a fun birthday that year. And so the military changed.


from what it was to what it went into when that happened. So my intro into getting into the military was like, I'll say fast, heightened. So you get to base, that occurs. The base goes into the super crazy lockdown mode. And then from there, they adjust it to how they did things. So a lot of what I...


experience was different than even the person that was like six months before me just because of How 9-11 happened and what happened? March 19 2003 I got sent to go to Iraq the first time so we go from Nellis We kind of staged in Dover, Delaware for about a week. We waiting for Bush to do his speech or whatever


And literally I remember being like, at this time I'm like, 20. I think 20. I remember being like, are we either going to die or I'm gonna go, or we're going back home. Cause we were like, it was all dependent on what he said in his speech. So when he declared that it was official conflict, we pretty much like, okay, we're going, we're gonna continue to head to Iraq, whatever. So I was a Mark 19 gunner, which is,


one of the reasons I got selected. So, Mark-19 is an automatic grenade launcher and it weighs 75 pounds by itself without being loaded. And so, it's one that you either be on a tripod on the ground with or mounted on a Humvee. And that's the thing about the Air Force cops, you have double jobs, right? It's the military, so of course you can get sent to fight or do whatever, but the cops are almost like a guarantee to go, which I didn't really know.


when I went in and to you go start going through your training. so being certified on a heavy weapon like that for any type of like wartime things, you're guaranteed you're probably gonna go. And how I got certified on it was when I first came into the military, I think I was fortunate enough to have a group of people over me. like my supervisor and then my two step up, which had been her supervisor.


I feel that I was fortunate they were both black. And so when I came in, were like, we're going to set you up for success type thing. So it's like, there's all these little things in the military that a lot of people talk about, like stuff to accomplish to get rank or to get whatever. And there are forces of thinking that's called BTZ. So below the zone, when you go from one strike to another, when you get to the, when you get from two, which is


Airman first class, so A1C Airman first class to the next stripe up, which is three stripes, which is senior Airman. There's a thing called BTZ, so belongs on. So you can, if you get chosen, you can put that stripe on early. And so they did a lot of stuff to set me up to go for that. So one of those was like being qualified on stuff that other people aren't qualified on. So that's how I got chosen to be qualified on the Mark-19.


And for our base, there's only two bases at the time that taught that weapon. So there was Nellis, which is where I was, and then there was a base in Texas. So of the whole Air Force, there's only two bases that teach that weapon. it was one of those where it's like, this definitely isn't something everybody, you know, all cops are going to be privy to. But with that, then 9-11 happened. So when I got put on the team for that,


which is a three man team and we got sent with two three man teams and then we connected with a couple of reserve teams that were 50 cal gunners, which is a 50 caliber huge rifle type, but it's also large, it's large. So it's another one that's like, you're gonna be on a Humvee or mounted on a tripod on the ground. Let me see, that was what 2003.


went to the first time, which was bizarre, crazy. I mean, you have a 20 year old. I think the oldest person that we left my base with, I think the oldest guy on the team that we left with was 24. So when you think about it now, it's like we all left, like we're not teenagers, but you're still, you're just out of that teenage phase, right? Yeah.


You're early and mid 20s, you're super young. mean, just so much responsibility, so much, my gosh, yeah. Yeah, so it's like the person that was over us, right? It was like 24 and we're all, I think I was the youngest in, so I ran from like 20 to 24 in the age of our, the team of people that I love with. That kind of gives you sense of like, yeah, like what.


where we were at at the time. And then the reserve team we hooked up with, because they were a reserve, I think there's another guy that was a little older. They were a little older than us, which was nice to actually connect with them through the traveling and stuff to get to where we had to go. Because we had someone else's a little more, I'll say like better head on the shoulders to kind of guide us. So 03, I wrapped the first time, came back towards the end of the year.


And I was, I got sent, we got sent north to Kirkuk. So we got sent north. That's a whole nother like story of that experience. Northern Iraq. Let me see. We came back towards the end of the year. And then when I came back, I think I started working in our weapons armory for the cops. So we basically would arm up the cops in the morning and then once they were done with their shift, like take their weapons and stuff, which by far is probably


It was one of the jobs I liked a lot. I had a really good supervisor that was over us. His name was Sarmako, I'll never forget him. His Sarmako, he's from New York. So yeah, his little New York accent was just really chill and cool. everyone I worked with, he did a good job of hiring people that our personalities went well together. I don't think we never had any problems, we never had. And you generally were working shifts by yourself, so we're in 12 hour shifts.


So they have a schedule called Panama. So you're three, you work three, then you'll be offered two and then you'll work two and be offered three. So it's like you end up getting every other weekend off. and so we had what's called extended Panama. So we would do four, three, three, four. And so you had the same weekend off, but it was kind of nice because you would end up having like four days off sometimes. So we were like,


I don't care. So then bring us up till 2009. So let me see. So I worked at Armory and then I left that base in... I spent like a month in Germany in between like on the way to go to Iraq too. between there like a month in Germany. Stopped in Romania, which actually was really cool. I have a picture, a friend actually


recently reconnected with her from the military. She sent it to me. We're the only two girls that also really only there's only two girls out of all the what four or eight people that we left with from my base. There's like two girls. And so I reconnected recently. She sent me a snapshot of the picture where I'm standing in the Black Sea. But it was like this rock we found. And so the water like just went over the rock. So looks like I'm standing on top of the water. It's not Nicole. So


Romania and then different places like visiting in between there which was really cool. So kind of fed into the wanting to travel which was another reason I actually went to the military because I was thinking I was gonna like be able to like change bases every once a year or so and I would get you know traveling in but going back and forth to Iraq I got traveling into other places. So let's see that I left that base in


2000


Actually, I supposed to get stationed in England and I had the orders and everything and then next day I know like with two days before I got on the plane I already got told don't get on the plane and then they issued me new orders to go to Vandenberg which is central coast California so right kind of like right above Santa Barbara so which


As soon you're like, that's awesome. But it's like, no, I wanted to go to England and I would have been doing post-o duty as a special duty. And the funny part, no one knew why my orders got changed, even the girl that changed them. So the original lady that I was working with for like leaving and stuff, was pregnant. So she went into labor and was like having a baby. And so they told someone else who was lower ranking to take over or whatever. So I'm asking her questions and she's like,


I don't know because she's lower ranking so she doesn't want to ask questions. I'm just like, okay. So I get sent to Vandenberg. I get there. They're not expecting me at all. They're like, what are you doing? I'm like, I don't know. So I'm like, please tell me. Mind you, all my stuff, I was living in a suitcase. So all my stuff got sent to England. It was on the way to England and I got sent to California. So I was without my stuff for...


Let me see, because I want to say August, August of 2005 until sometime in 2006. It was almost a year, like myself was one. And so right about the time that, yeah, it's crazy because after so long, they have to pay you for it because they pretty much lost it. And because no one knew where it was. And they're like, wait, someone found it. And I'm like, of course. It had been sitting on the flight line that whole time just in a pallet.


And some cop was like, why is this here? It's been here for months. And then they went and like ran the name and realized like, this person was supposed to be here really didn't. So there's so much stuff that happened in my, yeah. So that was, let me see, 2000, let's see. So 2006 to 2007, I went to Iraq the second time and I was going for a year that time. Totally different operation this time.


So the first time I was under Iraqi Freedom, the second time I think was Enduring Freedom, their campaigns as I call them, the second time I was doing detainee operations, so totally different type of job. And then the third time I left was 08 and I came back in 09, so a little before I got out.


And that time I went to Kuwait. It's still enduring freedom. And we were doing some back-end work on the military side of the airport, if that makes sense. So the Kuwaiti airport has the regular, and then there's a backside that the military operates and does some stuff on. So I came back, and I only had a few months before I was supposed to get out. So that was kind of a thing, too, where


when I got sent, because we were like, the group I got sent with the second time from VanWerg, where we were and what we were doing, we were supposed to be back for at least a year before we got sent back out. And mind you, there's plenty of people that could go, but for some reason, one of the head guys, they picked me and a few other people that I had went to Iraq the second time with to leave again. And the supply guy who kind of is over, he came and told me, he's like,


He pulled us like three or four of us aside and he was like, I tried to tell them, but they were like, officially you'll be back for a year while you're in training for this. So you can go again. And he was like, I tried to tell them a couple of you guys are about to get out, but they were like, whatever. was like, you know, So the year, so 2009, I come back and I think I have like maybe six months before I get out. I don't even know. It wasn't even a full six months, but.


I feel like we're just scratching the surface of everything and there's just so much, I know there's just so much in those so many years of experiences and feelings and so many different jobs and my gosh. So how did you decide you wanted to leave? One, so I had the first enlistment. The reason I enlisted for the second time was because I had got the orders to go to England.


And so I got to go to England and I was going to be doing a special post-o-duty, which is considered a special duty. And so I was super excited and I literally debated for, I don't know how long to even sign the orders to go because if not, I would have got out like four years prior. And so I waited until the, was such a debate in me because I was like, do I go and go to England? Which is where I've been trying to go like my whole career.


and get over on that side or do I get out and just go from there? And I debated for so long that I waited until literally the last five minutes before the place that I needed to take them closed. literally, me and my friend walked in and they locked the door behind us. And she was like, dang. I was like, dang, like if we would have been late, if they were in the traffic, like I wouldn't have made it to turn these orders in. And so them switching my orders,


for no reason. That's why it was such a big deal. Yeah. Even to this day, there was only like kind of a concept that someone had that I was like, well, that would make sense. Because I didn't get in trouble. Like if you're someone who got in trouble, they can easily take your orders or do whatever. I didn't get in trouble. There was no reason. Even when I got to the base, like I said, they weren't expecting me at Vandenberg, which is why even my stuff went to England because...


One person, thought process was that because Vandenberg got a new, they're a space command base. they launch, they do launches and stuff. so they got a new air missile defense system, which required them to have more people. And someone was like, since you had already checked out of your base, but you hadn't physically left yet, they probably, it's just easier to switch you over instead of giving someone else new orders and whatever. And I was like, that's messed up.


and that's shady. But it's the military so you sign your life with it, they can literally do what they want. So that being said, and I couldn't get out of the orders because I didn't have a closet. I didn't know. So when you're what they call first term, I mean like on your first enlistment, there's not a lot of stuff that people don't tell you. Like you find out later. So later come to find out I could have had them put in the orders. Like if for some reason these orders get canceled, so does my...


I had to reenlist to get those orders because I was like six months shy. So the orders were for two years, I think. And I was like six months shy of fulfilling that two years by the time I would have got there. So I had to reenlist to get the extra time. I couldn't, I already had been on like a six month extension. So, and as a first term, can't extend, you can only extend so much.


So I couldn't be like, I just need another six months. So you had to re-up a whole four years. Yeah, there's so many ways they kind of get you with stuff. so, me not knowing that I could have put in there, like if these orders get canceled, so does that enlistment. I didn't know that. So when the orders got canceled, I got sent over there, there was literally like nothing I could do. So I just had to like do the time. So when it was time for me get out, I was like, I'm out.


You had been ready. You had been ready to get out. And I was, yeah, and I was also like upset about it. I have to do. Yeah, I relisted for one thing and you put me somewhere else. And it wasn't like I said, it wasn't like I got in trouble. My whole career, I never got in trouble. I actually got awards for things. Things that like I wasn't trying, but just doing my job and excelling. Right.


There was some recognition that I received. it's like for someone like that to then be told like you're going somewhere and trying your whole life, your whole career to get there. And then all of a sudden, oops, no, just kidding. You're going over here. Like it just didn't sit right with me. And I was like, I'm done. I'm over it. Like I don't want do it anymore.


It's like hardest for me to wrap my head around for people that enlist is that you do have to do what people tell you to do and where they tell you to go, where they tell you to go. you know, it's like letting other people decide such major things for you. that like, just, I don't know, I just can't wrap that. can't my head around that. so like your second four years not being what you


thought you signed up for, like, man, yeah, I can totally, I can feel that being like really difficult. Yeah, it definitely was. And something you just said is kind of how I felt where it was like, I pretty much was like, I'm ready to like, be over my own life now, right? I think coming out of high school, going straight into the military for me wasn't that big of deal. Cause I came from a family where


there's discipline and there's strictness. it's like, it wasn't that big of deal. Like my mom tells me what to do, right? My mom, have rules and guidelines and stuff. coming straight out of being a teenager living with your parents, going into the military, I was like, it's kind of the same thing, right? And then, growing up in there and getting to a certain point where you become an adult and realizing like, okay, I'm ready to like my own decisions for certain things. And then going through that experience that I previously just explained, like it just,


It literally just made me be like, okay, I'm ready to be over my own life now. I want to have choices that I want to make, And not have to do something because someone who doesn't have my best interests at hand tells me to do it, right? Versus your parents, you consider having your best interests at hand with the decisions they're making. But the military is going to do what's either right for them. Or you sometimes, unfortunately, have people in positions to do things that they just do because


whatever drives them to do them. And it's not always on the positive. man. OK, so. Wow. I really want to know as like my last question for you for this interview about the military.


What did you tell your niece in terms of like, what do you think are the positives and also what do you think are the negatives of joining the army that young people, that you want young people to consider so then they can be fully informed in making their very important decision whether or not to enlist? Yeah. We actually, we had set a coffee date and she canceled on me because she's a very active.


Like she's cheerless, she plays basketball, so we have to like reset up the date. But some of the things I definitely wanted to make sure she was aware of is like, it's not all glitter, right? There are some of the things you have to go through and I plan to inform her and not tell her all the nitty gritty stories about being deployed, but it's a very different life over there.


It's a very different life. And if you go to some of the spaces I went to, which are called bare base, it's almost like camping, but it doesn't end. and in some instances it can be worse, right? Because you also have to think, you're not in a safe space. on top of your lifestyle of living, being completely different than what you're used to, right? All the, privileges and stuff you have living over here.


you don't have that over there, then you also have to worry about your safety on a very heightened, different level. So it's not like, I'm walking from school, I just gotta be aware when I get to my house that I'm good. You have to be aware all times. You have to be conscious of everything that's going on in every moment in the event. So actually seeing how certain things are going, the whole Ukraine and all the other stuff, but given our history,


of America it seems about like every four years we're in something. Which I was aware of when I went in because I told myself which I was like, I'll do four years and then I'll get out. Right? And I was like, if something happens it should be at the tail end of when I'm in. That's not what happened. It happened like literally right when I got in. I was like, wait, this is not how I planned this. Like, this is not what's supposed to happen. you know, letting her know just that portion of myself of what you're really getting into. And then also the fact that like


You have to do what other people tell you. The younger generations these days are very different. I will say very different. Even I watch how my sister maneuvers with raising them and discipline and certain things. And I'm just like, and her and I have talked, I'm like, these kids are different. She's like, yes, they're different, right? So it's like, I don't know, we just operate different. just making sure she has awareness of like, this is not like...


You can't go and then be like, I don't like this, cancel it, right? There's no council culture in the military. You do what they say. Yeah, exactly. Then know there's a lot of them that are used to that. Like, I don't like something that I quit. Like this is not, you can't quit like that. And if you do, it's going to use, there's people that tried to quit and they pretty much draw that out so long that you might as well have just did your time and got out. You know, but then also there was the good things where it's like,


For me, the nice thing was, even though, because my plan was to be in four years, like I said, go to different bases in different places, different countries, and being able to see the world and then experience the cultures of the food and things like that. The good thing is, if you can travel, you do. You get to see new stuff. You get to make friends from different places and see different lands and things like that. And my niece is somewhat like me, where she does like to like...


experienced different things. So like I said, she's way more active than I was. Like high school I played volleyball and you know, stuff like that. But she's like, this girl is, I'm like, when you sleep, she's always something. No, like, I'm like, she's busy. I'm like, for how old you are, like, you're like adult busy where right now you might want to like enjoy your time. Besides the travel, what was the other biggest positive?


I would say, I I grew, I did grow up in there. As I said, I went in at 18, right? And got out at what? 26 or something like that. I think maybe having access to people from different places was a positive. I got to see how different people lived, how different people grew up. Having the conversations and meeting.


meeting people without even traveling. I got to meet people from different cultures and different backgrounds and connecting and figuring out and learning how to network at a young age. And like I was saying, especially with the cops, people look at us a certain way, but I developed a knack for kind of dealing with people in a way where I don't know they gravitate towards me. So it's like, we would need to get something. I'm like, I know someone from


from that group or whatever and I'm like, let me see what I can do or you know, whatever. It's a complicated social structure, right? So you end up building a lot of soft skills if you're gonna navigate that successfully, right? Yes, I completely agree. So I would say that was a positive. Just learning the differences, right? With humans and you said being able to grow up, like we say, you know, it takes a village.


even though I was 18, like I said, being in a very diverse environment of like age, culture, everything, right? So it's like a mini world that you kind of get to like experience. then it's like when you get out, when you deal with the real world, you kind of already, well, I did at least, I'll say that's what I picked up from it. Cause I would say not everyone picks up from it, right? Everything.


Everyone's experience is different because it's depending on what they take from it. You can go through the same thing as someone, you can pick however you gravitate towards things, you will pull different things from that experience. For me, I would say that's what I pulled from that experience. I definitely say I was also in with some people that were very reluctant to be open to certain things during the experience.


I sounded like you were a lot more open. Yeah, it's like today, this conversation, I feel so privileged and lucky and grateful to have this conversation with you because you have been super open and that is hard. I'm just really grateful that you shared all these things that you shared and their personal experiences and personal stories. So thank you for being so open.


thank you for having me. Thank you for listening. I'll say thank you for... Of course. Every time I've interacted with you though, making me feel like comfortable. If you know it or not, like you have a presence that like makes me comfortable. So I think it makes it easier as well. Thank you. Yeah, you're very easy for me to be around, which is why we've been here for a few hours. I know, right? Longer than... Yeah, it's like getting some storytelling. So before we go,


Yeah. Are you working on any projects now? Is there anything you want to share with our listeners if they want to check out what you're doing now, support you? Like what's going on with Tonisha now that you want to share? You know, like separate from, you know, we've been talking about, about your military experience. Tonisha in late 2024. It's December 13th right now that we're recording. It's also PS, not PS. Parentheses, it's a Friday the 13th, which is why.


We were like, we're gonna not be superstitious. We're gonna go ahead and record. And also we have been kicked off by the internet and other technological things a few times. But hopefully the editing is so smooth that you will not have noticed until right now, because I'm telling you. Yeah, anything else you want to share or plug, please do. If people would like to find me or interact with me, you can find me on


Instagram @the.plantnanny or @the.plantnanny and briefly people asked me how I got into plants. It's a full story for another time, but I basically kind of grew up with them. coming out of Iraq looking for solace, I kind of slain shut into plants and then turned to old thing. Fast forward at some point in time, I got a horticulture degree and started teaching plant care and doing workshops for plants and how they kind of


coordinate with health, right? Emotionally and mentally, how they are medicine for us. So that's currently what I'm doing. And then there are a bunch of crazy madness that happened this year and different things, unexpected things. I don't know if I even told you this. I also decided that I am going to go back to school and get certified for a esthetician.


going to medical esthetician. right. Yeah, yeah, you mentioned this briefly. Uh-huh. Yeah. It's just I found, you know, it's another place I can like help people. And when I say medical esthetician, I want to get within to like a dermatologist office and, you know, focus on like facial skin and things like that. And also, I am planning on moving out of the country. And so I feel like that's a job that I can


I do have a place because I know people are like, out of the country, you're just going. But I do have a place in mind that I want to go. And so my birthday, September, decided I'll take a trip there to see and check it out and see how I want to. Is it Korea? No. Something skincare. Actually, haven't want no that I know it's funny. I haven't wanted to go to Korea because I mean, their skincare is just like by far surpasses, I think.


everyone to be honest with you and I'm actually a little ecstatic because now lately we've been getting more of options of the screen Korean skincare in the states when before there was like minimal things And I've always been in a skincare even though I younger, which is funny I rarely talked about it, but I've always been into it so but I do want to I do want to visit Korea and so I can like actually dive into that a little more


Me too. I always really want to visit South Korea. I love the food. And apparently I look South Korean. So there's that. But this reminds me, I wanted to plug that there are many reasons to travel, many ways to travel and people, this is just like sidebar from Jess, that if you're young and you're thinking about joining the military because you want to travel, there's a lot of other ways to travel such as


the Peace Corps, teaching English abroad, studying abroad, working abroad, a lot of ways. If you want to join the military for other reasons, more power to you. I just wanted to plug that there's like so many ways to travel. Yeah. Okay. End of plug. I was going say I'm going tack on to that plug. agree that, yeah, check out a resource if you want to travel. Yeah. And if you do want to join the military,


By all means, go ahead and do it. So long as you continue the fight, but just know what you're getting into. Yeah. and then last one I just thought of being au pair is another way to travel. Anyway, so many ways to travel though. Woofing. Okay, I can go on. I just remembered one question that I really wanted to ask you that I forgot to ask. Okay, I'm going to PS put it in right now. What does Tonisha mean and or what is it? What's the name Tonisha from? Do you know? Yes, I do know.


I don't know the meaning. In my mind, we'll just say it means amazing, eccentric person. Yes, that tracks. My mother's name is Felicia. My father's name is Tony. And I have an older brother named Tony. And so my dad was gonna name me Tony, but he figured it'd be too many Tonys.


So clearly someone's obsessed with their name. And so he put together Tony and Felicia and so Tonisha. Fun! Creative name. Sidebar, but I still get called Tony sometimes also. I think the projects that you're working on and that are on your horizon right now are just really beautiful.


And I'm curious to hear eventually, you know, where you do end up, yeah, out of the US again. So yeah, keep me posted. I definitely will. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yes. This is so lovely. No, thank you for having me.


Thank you for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you like this podcast, this is a small budding program, so remember to follow us and share with your networks to help us grow. We're also on Instagram, @thecultureful, where we look forward to your messages and ideas for future episodes. 


This episode was produced and edited by me, with assistant editing by Ruben Gnanaruban. I'm Jess Lin. See you soon.