Aisha, Part 1. Pakistani American - Street Fighter, Parkour, and the Original Audiobook

In the Season 2 premiere of Cultureful, host Jess Lin talks with Aisha Sarwari, a 43-year-old Pakistani American women's rights activist, author and public speaker, and corporate communications expert, and public speaker based in Atlanta.

Aisha shares about her family’s multi-generational migration story—from India to Uganda and Kenya and eventually to Pakistan and the U.S.—intertwining personal history with major events like India’s Partition and the expulsion of Asians from Uganda. In this episode, she reflects on her parents’ backgrounds and communities.  

This is the first of a four-part conversation full of insight, complexity, nuance, and heart.

Watch the video on YouTube: https://youtu.be/OpffD_p_NZg

Follow Aisha:

On Instagram @aishafsarwari https://instagram.com/aishafsarwari  
and @heart_tantrums https://instagram.com/heart_tantrums
On X @AishaFSarwari https://x.com/AishaFSarwari

On Youtube @aishasarwari2134 https://youtube.com/@aishasarwari2134?si=q-4af45REWM201X9 

Her memoir is called Heart Tantrums and Brain Tumours and can be ordered on from Hurst Publishers at https://www.hurstpublishers.com/profile/aisha-sarwari/ 

Thanks so much for listening! Follow, review, and share to help us grow.

Episode trailers on Instagram: @thecultureful https://instagram.com/thecultureful

Transcript

This transcript was created by AI and may contain errors.

[00:00:00] 

Jess: He was jumping roofs, he was hidden. Then after a while, they started looking into the houses to see if they were hiding anyone, so he had to jump over more roofs.

Aisha: it was obviously extremely double oh seven, but not in a good way at all. 

Jess: You are listening to Cultureful. I'm your host, Jess Lin. To kick off season two, I'm sharing an epic, insightful, and deeply personal conversation that spans geographies and generations. I had the pleasure of sitting down with Aisha Sarwari, a 43-year-old Pakistani American feminist and cultural Muslim.

She was born in Uganda, raised in Uganda and Kenya. Spent years in Pakistan and now lives in the US in Atlanta, Georgia. Aisha is a corporate communications expert and the author of Heart Tantrums and Brain Tumors, a memoir about love loss, feminism, and identity. It [00:01:00] follows her journey across continents, including her experience navigating marriage and caregiving.

After her husband, Yasser Latif Hamdani, a prominent constitutional lawyer, was diagnosed with a brain tumor. This is the first episode of a four-part series where Aisha shares her family history and how it intersects with major historical events like India's partition in the expulsion of Asians from Uganda.

She offers a nuanced view of the many communities her family belongs to. In this first part, we begin with her parents' backgrounds and how they got married. As always, you can watch the video version with photos on YouTube. Hope you enjoy. 

Well, hi Aisha.

Aisha: hey Jess, it's really good to be here.

Jess: Yeah. Welcome to the show. I'm so happy you're here.

Aisha: I am so lucky to be on a show that's called Cultureful 'cause it tells me that [00:02:00] this is somebody who's really thought about the words. So great honor.

Jess: took me a long time to come up with the name through a lot of renditions.

So thank you and thanks for being here. I am, um, really looking forward to hearing your story without having to, you know, like when we had our pre-meeting, I was like, don't tell me too much because I want to hear when we're recording. And it was so hard for me to have that kind of, you know, self-control.

Um, but I'm glad today I don't have to, I can like, I can like ask all the questions that I wanna ask. Um, but of course, you know, you don't have to answer all the questions, 

Aisha: Jess, I wanna answer all your questions. There, I wanna answer all the questions you haven't asked and the questions you ask. So yeah, this is a long journey, hopefully over a lifetime. 

 I've mentioned this before. It's really nice to see how seriously you take culture. 'cause it is really the most important transformational power of our times.[00:03:00] 

Jess: Thank you. Wow. you're an author of a very personal book, um, called Heart Tantrums, which talks about your feminism, your marriage, your husband who is a public figure.

Um, Yasser. Latif Hamdani. Am I pronouncing his name 

correct. 

Um, and his brain tumor journey. And when you and I first met, uh, or when we, we first had our, you know, pre-meeting, and I thought it was really interesting that you assumed that I just wanted to talk about the book. 

Um, but instead I was like, well, you already wrote a book about it.

If people want to find out about that information, then go read the book. 

Um, I wanna know all the stuff that's like, not in the book, 

just about you, outside of your role as like, outside of the hat that you wear that is a wife. Right. 

Because, you were telling me like, the rest of your biography and I was like, well that's fascinating 

 [00:04:00] example, you were born in Uganda. Then you also spent part of your childhood in Kenya and then moved to Pakistan I was just like, well, we need to talk about that.

So anyway, I'm really happy we're here to talk about, other parts of Aisha because Aisha has experienced and gone through a lot of stuff. 

Aisha: It's interesting just that you mentioned that because you know, when you write something it's almost like, okay, now I'm done. Um, and so everything I need to say is in closed in a book under a publication. Um, and so anybody who wants to know who I am. Referenced from that. It was really interesting that you did that for me, where you said, hold on.

There, there, there must be so many things that,

that are not in the book and there's more to you. So it takes a woman to remind another woman for that. And similarly, my editor at Penguin, uh, her name is Ani and she did that for me. So when I got the book deal, uh, I couldn't [00:05:00] write the book 'cause I was like, there's no, no story here.

And she basically just asked me. What you asked me, which is like, then what happened, and then you had a bug. So it's

amazing that, you know, you need the sisterhood or the kindness of another person's, vision to kind of get you to, to look at the edges and that's beautiful. So thanks.

Jess: Yeah, of course. let's get into it. Sowith, um, your family roots in migration. so, you're Pakistani American and you were born in Uganda. You were born in 1981 in Uganda.

Um, and I would really love to hear the story of how each of your parents' sides ended up in East Africa, from South Asia, where your, ancestors are originally from. So let's start with mom's side. 'cause I know mom's side I think was a little bit earlier, right? Like in the timeline of ending up in East Africa.

 So how would you [00:06:00] describe your mom's side of the family and how did they arrive in East Africa?

Aisha: You know, ancestors stories are pretty sketchy. They only tell you what they want to tell you or what they remember or what didn't get left out by trauma or, you know, the rewriting of the story. So I'm not sure if this is as accurate as possible, but I'll try and, you know, tell it, uh, as. as. I've been told, or as I remember it, my grandfather and grandmother were in their teens when they got married and moved from a place called Conan. Uh, their Konkani Muslims from India, which is a place near Goa. they moved because the British colonies were pretty much like one country from India to East Africa. I think they moved during the railroad, the East African Railroad, at which time there were a lot of. Indians that were brought to Kenya to not just build it, but to be merch merchants around it.

And so my grandfather, uh, worked his way up to be a merchant, a trader. I think he had a couple of shops around, you know, you know, creating economy around, [00:07:00] uh, Kenya. Um, and he and my grandmother, whose name was also Aisha, who

I'm named after. 

Jess: oh,

so you're named after your mom's mom

Aisha: Yes

I am. And I also got her freckles. So it's very rare for someone who's brown to get freckles.

She was very, um, you know, in our culture, color is everything. So she was very fair and she had freckles, but I'm brown and I have freckles, so it's one of the two things I inherited from her. Her name and her. And her freckles. So yeah, there is an affinity there between me and my grandmother. Uh, obviously like from women of that time, tough life, you know, she ha she bore more many children. Some made it, some did not. and, you know, she created community. She didn't say much. Like, no, I don't have any recollection of, oh, my nanny or my grandmother said such and such a thing about such and such a person. She wasn't. remembered or memorable for what she said she was just remembered for who she gave birth to,

you know, so it was like the mother of these seven, [00:08:00] eight children, for instance.

Right. Um, and that's a very interesting take on how women were at that time and how they were known. They were known for their fertility.

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: So then, anyway, they came to Kenya, they created more community, they brought more relatives from. Conan back home, uh, as most Indians do, they, they come and then they bring other people in.

often these are escapes of economic poverty. Often they are escapes of, um. Cultural subjugation. But either way, uh, we don't know why they left. Maybe it was just an adventure. Maybe it was just a thing everyone did. and they were quite well settled in Kenya over the years, even after the British left. my grandmother, Aisha's eldest child, became, ended up becoming the Supreme Court Chief Justice for Kenya.

Um, there were other children that were very, uh, high accomplishing as well. So I think that gives you an idea into how migration disrupted their life, but also made them very gritty. Um, [00:09:00] they strived for excellence. They paid attention to education and, uh, they were generally good law abiding people. You know, they, they stayed on the right side of the law. They contributed economically and socially. Um, they created the Kni Muslim Club, which was, you know, all the Kni Muslims coming together.

They really took their culture. Very seriously and, um, put guardrails around it. So to be a good kni Muslim, you had to do a few things. Um, and these were the kind of early people or the farmers of that Kni Muslim club in Nairobi, Kenya. Um,

Jess: What kind of things do you have to do to be a good kme Muslim?

Aisha: it was different for girls, different for boys. For boys, you had to be high achieving. You had to make sure that you get good grades. I understand. and I have a bit of a glimpse into how, unacceptable it was to get anything under a 99. You know, it was like, you know, there means about it now is like, where are the, where are the other two? Uh, if you got 98, it's like, you know, [00:10:00] you'll

probably get whooped. 

Jess: My, my mom She tells me this story too, of like when she got something really high. And then, yeah, her grandfather, I think her grandfather was actually joking with her, was like, oh, maybe she got like 98 or something.

And her grandfather was like, what about the other two? 

And he was actually joking with her, but she didn't realize that he was joking because there are a lot of families that weren't joking about 

that kind of stuff. so so this interesting like that, this is also like that level of intense. Academic expectation 

Aisha: And there's also a lot of funny stories about, you know, the uncles taking the young ones for some kind of excursion or a beach trip or something like that. And then the entire time asking them to recite their times tables or going back and writing an essay about what they're experiencing. So just the

Jess: So play had strings attached, play had like homework 

strings attached.

Aisha: I don't think, I don't think pleasure for the sake of pleasure was a thing.

I think also that it was the only lever of upward mobility.

They, they understood. It's a [00:11:00] make and break. Reminds me a lot of pursuit of happiness. The Will Smith movie that I was watching yesterday, 'cause I've migrated here and I feel a little like that. Um, just the stakes are so high, you have very little time to make it. You know, time is of the essence. You have to stand apart from others and then they pass it on to their children. And back then corporal punishment was just a very common thing. You did. You did take the. the. belt out and often used it on the boys.

So the boys had this thing about academic excellence, which you could not escape. The girls had the same level of pressure, but it was conveyed to them through the aunts. So think about Margaret Edwards book. The handmaid tale and the aunts have a really big role

in putting the culture forward or the testament.

And so the same level of you cannot mess this up. And if you mess this up, you're gonna be outcasted or you're gonna be a bad girl, but cultural. So how to sit, how to knit, how to mend your clothes, how to be [00:12:00] a good mother,

how to really, at the end of the day, control your anger. So there was this very zero tolerance on girls being angry. You

just could not be angry. And so it's almost like getting an A grade on submissiveness. You know, if you got a 98 on submissiveness, they're like, what about the other two? She's not one of us.

Jess: Oh my gosh. Couldn't be angry. 

Aisha: you can't be angry.

And I was, I think I was an 

Jess: sounds so hard.

Aisha: I was definitely an angry child, but to give you a couple of other past grades on how girls were brought up, um, there was a lot of religious education because remember, these people were Indian, Muslim in a, in a Hindu majority, uh, country,

uh, after the partition in 19, uh, 45.

 they were Indian, Muslim before the partition. They moved before the partition. So they,

so they missed out the, the sort of like. the fight on religious grounds, the communal fight, however, because they saw it from far away, [00:13:00] I think it's even worse 'cause they kind of had a lot of fear of what, you know, our, our religion and cultural values are under threat because not

only are are they under threat back home.

You know, because they had to define themselves as Muslim, but also Indian. But they're also a threat here in Kenya because it's a different culture and if they let loose, then their children will assimilate, and that's the worst thing in the world.

What's really interesting is that, Indian Muslims are Indian Muslims in very, in two particular ways because they have to hold two flags together. They have to hold the Indian nationalism flag really close to them because otherwise they sound like traitors, right?

Or they behave like traitors and they also need to hold the Muslim flag close to them because. Their culture is important. That's how they maintain an inner world. So they took both those things to Kenya and they held it by dear life, you know,

um, the language. So they, they spoke in Kenya, even a lot of [00:14:00] communities.

There's, now, of course, it's kind of faded because the younger ones don't. But through language, through, uh, practices like girls had to, and boys had to, you know, memorize the Koran, um, you know, and, and at least read it three times. So stuff like that. So, you know, going back to what was expected of a girl child is she should know how to pray.

She should know how to be decent. She should, you know, a lot of overemphasis on clothes. What I'm wearing right now is a sleeveless is unacceptable. You would

be orchestrated, uh, you know, ost osteocytes are your apologies. And so a lot of these do's and don'ts. 

You know, they wouldn't like to hear this, but if you compare Catholicism to how Kni Muslims raised girls, very similar. Even when, even before they became prepubescent, the idea was, boys are bad. You are gonna be a bad girl if you wanna talk to them. you know, a lot of slut shaming even before a child understands

sexuality. [00:15:00] 

So just preventative stuff, you know? a lot of segregation. So like you walk into, uh, a place where everybody's gathered. The women are on one side, the men are on one side.

Jess: and you mentioned that assimilation was what they really didn't want for their children, 

and so were these communities very close-knit and, you know, separate and maybe insular from the rest of Kenyan society?

Aisha: Very much so, unfortunately. And, and, uh, it's not like they were disrespectful. Like I'll tell you one thing about the Kni Muslims is that they're, they really care about, uh, humanity. They're very human, humanist in that sense. They, they give charity, they're part of the culture. But, um. You know, in Kenya they would employ, um, you know, people from, or Kenyans, black Kenyans from the community, but to be very nice to them.

They wouldn't eat before they've eaten. They would pay them fair wages. So these are extremely [00:16:00] ethical people, however, within their ethics scheme, a great fear that they're different. You know, this is a, you know, they were not clawed, but they were, they were clawed in the sense of protecting their culture

culturally.

C classist, if I may add. So you can interact with them, you can be nice to them. You can be kind to them. You can in, you know, inter like make friends with them,

but we are not them.

Jess: And you're not really allowed to marry them.

Aisha: Hell no.

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: No. You don't marry them at all. I mean, uh, and, and that, that is what I feel like they didn't think through this because. You're raising your children generation after generation, after generation, in a country where you're creating this island of, your community, you're thriving, you're passing on the gift that you're taking in a very extractive way from this country, from this community, but you're passing it on only to your community, and you think that the only thing that's owed to you [00:17:00] is kindness. Like, you know, you would flip out if your child decides to bring home. A Kenyan man or woman. Um, it's happened now in these generations mostly, and I'm very happy about that. But let's say two generations ago, or even one generation ago was absolutely unacceptable because it, it took away from the idea that, oh, all that effort that you put in to tame the girls and to high achieve the boys, now the benefit have gone on to another community, you know?

Jess: Hmm.

you know, sometimes I think like, wow, like, you know, there are certain cultures that have, I feel like. Been more successful at maintaining traditions and rituals and, you know, cultural identity. And I think part of that is like not wanting their family to intermarry with other cultures. Um, and just like thinking about, because I'm married to a South Asian and he is from Sri [00:18:00] Lanka and you know, like we had like a lot of trepidation when we were dating before we told his parents because we were like, you know, it was like 20, 21, 20 20, 20 21.

But you still don't know, like you don't know who is 

still of that thinking, right? Of like how comfortable people are within our marriage and you know, because then people 

don't understand your culture and all these other things. And I'm just, I'm really, I'm really grateful that my in-laws are who they are and.

I don't know, somehow my, I have a very progressive mother-in-law. She's just really awesome. So she's just like taking a moment to be really grateful for her and like being supportive. 

I'm like, of me marrying her son, you know, and not that like, if they weren't, and I know like I, it's like kind of maybe like a western thing to be like, oh, even if they, maybe not Western, but like some people, you know, they think well, even if they're, you know, parents aren't supportive.

Like, well I, I'm an [00:19:00] adult and I'm gonna go and do this and whatever. But like, it depends like what culture you're from, like how difficult it is to push against, you know, family support 

for who 

you marry. Um, so I'm glad we didn't have to push against anything. It turned out 

it was just all of our own phantom fear of 

what we might have to push against.

Aisha: mm Uh, to your point about intermarriage, I, I feel, um, so Pakistan's founding father, you know,

Jina, who's a very central figure in my life, and,

Jess: Who, whom your husband wrote a 

two whole books about?

Aisha: yes. Yeah.

We are both, we even married because we had a similar obsession with this wonderful man who created our country. Um, so he married a Parsi woman despite being, uh, Shia Muslim.

Jess: my duct tape came off. One second. Dude. Duct tape. Come on.

Aisha: My life's duct tape comes out often as well.[00:20:00] 

Jess: So real, so real. 

Aisha: this part. 

Jess: Okay, sure. Hmm. Can you explain to our listeners that maybe are less informed about the differences between these groups? Can

Aisha: So obviously Muslims have mu multiple sects right from the, the time of , its creation as a religion. Shia Muslims are Muslims that, um, sort of believe in hazard Ali's, uh, lineage, um, and that he should have, the, the transference from the prophet, whereas the Sunni Muslims feel hamar, uh, was the rightful. person to carry on the legacy. So that's the split immediately. Gina, founder of Pakistan was Shia Muslim. He didn't wear it on his sleeve. He wasn't even very Muslim. He, you know, was a very sort of like, um, Western assimilated Muslim. So, but he married a Parsi. And a Parsi is someone who, they they come from, um. A very long line of original religions that, people Stig stigmatize and, and stereotype them as [00:21:00] fire worshipers. They're not, there's obviously a much more complex tradition and religion there. It's quite beautiful, it's quite wonderful. But before partition Parsi were a very important part of, of Indian society. Anyway, he, he asked for her hand in marriage and her father refused saying, you know, first of all, there was a bit of an age difference as well, but he said something really interesting saying that the unity of a nation, you know, comes from intermarriage between different cultures

and Yeah. And you know, the, the unity of humanity also comes from that. You can say you can feed people before you eat. But can you marry them? That's the asset test of your humanity,

you know, because you know, there's no point of being patronizingly lovely to some community as an act of pity or as an act of giving. But can you take from them, can you look at them as an equal? Can you get them to bear your grandchildren?

Those 

things tell you everything about a human being.

Jess: Can you be family 

with these people? [00:22:00] Yeah. Can you be family with people from a different language, a different, you know, skin tone, a different background, different language, everything. 

Aisha: Every marriage is an intermarriage. Yes. I mean, don't you

feel like everyone comes in with such a diverse worldview? and talking about kni Muslims, not only are they insular, they're also a bit, um, I don't use this word lightly, and it's not a slur of any kind, but they're a bit, incestuous because in Muslim cultures, you are allowed to marry your first cousin.

Jess: Cousin. Marriage is allowed and practiced in many religions, but how common and accepted it is depends a lot on the community and region. Even within the same religion, for example, it was once widely accepted in Christian Europe, it is still common in Hindu parts of South India, but less common in Northern India.

In Muslim societies, cousin marriage is more common in [00:23:00] countries like Pakistan, and less so in countries like Indonesia. Many traditions, views on cousin marriage vary widely and are shaped by culture and history.

Aisha: Okay, so a lot of these traditions don't allow you to marry other anyone else,

and, and it's not often talked about because it's this thing that we hide from the world because they don't understand that we marry our first cousins. But the detriment of marrying your first cousin is that there's no crosspollination of ideas and you're keeping the wealth within the system, and you're also keeping your bad ideas within the system.

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: So it's, it's very common for all sides of most Muslims to encourage and also discourage anyone not marrying their cousin. Now, this is a, this is a problem from a biological and evolutionary standpoint.

It's also a problem from a 

cultural standpoint. Yeah. But

it's, [00:24:00] it comes from the fear that we will lose our tradition and identity.

So let's just get mar get them married too.

Jess: Wow.

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: the first thing that always pops to mind is like the biological risks, 

you know, of having kids with different disabilities or other 

things because of, um, not enough difference in the genetic pool. But it was really interesting that your, the thing that you emphasized first is like the cultural costs.

Of that and like the cost and how people think and their worldview and all that. I 

never thought about that aspect. 

Aisha: but it's understandable. You know, I am not saying this in a way to look down on the culture because I'm part of it. I'm looking at it from a perspective of how much fear do you have to have for your mind to be so closed that you would rather, you know. Get your sister's son to marry your daughter, then

actually have her date. how [00:25:00] scared do you have to be for that to happen?

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: I think anthropologically, these are frightened societies that fear assimilation because they've seen assimilation, you know, in their mind's eye and they're like, okay, I've worked so hard to make my daughter who she is. I do not want to risk that her husband will let her go free. So it's a control thing.

Jess: And to lose the culture 

and to lose passing on the culture and the language and 

Aisha: yeah.

Jess: yeah. 

Aisha: it's legit. I mean, people will, will look, will say things about it and all of that, but it's a legit way. They have passed on tradition, so

in their own way they have managed to survive. For a very long time. It's not sustainable, of course, but they've tried their best and they've done well.

Jess: okay, so, so it sounds like your mom is this accurate? Like, it sounds like she grew up in kind of like a, a middle class, like merchant family context in Kenya where she was in this tight-knit community [00:26:00] of kni Muslims that are all like, there settled, but not really not intermarrying with Kenyans, ethnic Kenyans.

I actually met Black Kenyans since around 40 to 45. Ethnic groups are indigenous to Kenya, including the Kaku u Luo, Lu, Kian, Maasai, and many others.

Do you know if she and her family, did they adopt Kenyon citizenship?

Aisha: My mom and my grandparents were Kenyan passport holders. So if they would, anyone would ask, who are you? They would say we are Kenyan. yeah. It's like anyone with a permanent residency here would say, you know, Pakistani American. So they were Kenyan Indians. Yeah, but Kenya was a very big part of who they were and it was a beautiful, and still is a beautifully amazing country with everything that you could need being there. Um, you go to Kenya and you'll be blown away by the economic wealth, [00:27:00] by the diversity, by how functional it is. Of course, it has the same challenges most countries in Africa have because that's what colonization does. It seeps you off of your resources and then you stumble with democracy, but. Other than that, it's one of the most amazing countries out there. 

Jess: What languages did your mom speak?

Aisha: s Swahili, a bit of Uganda, which is Ugandan, uh, language, uh, kni, um, not as fluently because she was second generation. English, she was always very good at English because we forget that the, because these were British colonies, English was always a very important and emphasized language and she's great at at it as well.

And Urdu.

Jess: how much education was she, afforded access to?

Aisha: that is such a painful question for me. 'cause, you know, uh. I feel, I feel really sad that she could not, I think, finish high school and my entire life she is [00:28:00] made such a big deal out of it. It's almost

like her introduction, oh, this is who I am and I didn't finish high school

and I don't know, or what do I know?

And she'd always put herself, you know, she would cut her to si herself to size a lot. Whereas I feel there are so many people who have completed. Being doctors or engineers and they don't have even half the wealth of knowledge and understanding of how the world works than her. Um, so she was, I think in probably grade five or six, I'm not sure, somewhere there preteen, she started realizing that she couldn't see the blackboard.

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: the fact that she was pulled outta school, really sad, but I also feel like she got self-taught a lot.

cause she would just, she's an avid reader she's a avid, like taker of culture, so she does, you know, stories like my dad, I, I know we are skipping, skipping ahead, but my dad would make her put himself to a nap when he come back.

Came back from work by reading to him.[00:29:00] 

Jess: Aw.

Aisha: So through that

she has read so much. 'cause he just would refuse to let her go. She'd be like, I have to go to the kitchen. And he's like, no, you finished this chapter for me. I'm

Jess: Aw. 

Aisha: like, but you're snoring.

Jess: Like 

a human audiobook. That's the og. You know? Really? It was just like 

someone sitting there reading to you. Yeah. 

Aisha: So I also learned a lot through that process. But yeah, so I, I feel like my mom's one of the most well-read women in both sides of our family.

Jess: Hmm. Uh, well traveled, well-read,

Aisha: um, and also, you know, has a thirst for knowledge. So she, she gave it back to the world. I mean, they, they pulled her outta school, but the moment she could see with her glasses, and now she has laser surgery, eye surgery, so she's like very badass.

Jess: Nice, nice. Uh, she doesn't have to Coca-Cola her, 

you know, she doesn't have to worry about ugly glasses. Um, I just recently got back on contacts and I [00:30:00] get it, you know, it's just, it's really nice to not have to wear glasses to see. Um, After the break, we learn about her dad's background and how her parents met and got married.

 so let's transition to your dad's side. 

 what was your dad's side of the family like in India?

 how did he end up in Uganda?

Aisha: So my dad's side, I call him Abu. Uh, Abu is, uh, born and brought up in Mir, uh, Mir Sharif as they call it, which is, um, you know, the land of saints, uh, Muslim saints. These are Sufi Muslim saints. And if those people who don't know what Sufi Muslim saints are, they're basically people who sort of followed the Rumi Jalal Rumi tradition of integrating religion and love leading with love. you know, using art, culture, music, dance [00:31:00] and poetry, uh, to bring God's word forward. And also the key idea in Sufi Islam is God lives in everyone's heart. So don't break anyone's heart. Don't break your own heart, don't break anyone else's heart. So, you know, beautiful, uh, tradition came from, Mir. So my dad's dad, my grandfather was, was part of the egr. Movement in United India, which uh, came from Sara Han, where the idea was let's educate the Muslims. Because the British have no interest in educating Muslims, they have an interest in keeping their reign strong, and they have a favorite, which is the Indian or the Hindu. Um, uh, elite because they get work done through that, you know, and

so Sir Sayed was one of the, you know, leaders in India who said, hold on, we also need to educate this community.

He was the first to say, you know what, when you're educating the men, educate the women as well. Can't hurt. You know, you'll

get, you'll get smarter kids, you know? So it was quite [00:32:00] revolutionary, these, these men at that time to be able to, you know, bring. These women, these

pamphlets. And so he was, so my, my grandfather was part of that tradition. He was a, he was a sort of teacher and back then teachers were everything. Yeah. So he, he had a school, he was a principal, he, you know, taught. And I think that everybody in my family who has made it academically is because of that. Because he, everybody really emphasized education quite a lot. Um. My dad was, uh, well educated, but I think he led with anger. He was known to be like a big street fighter.

Jess: Wait, like in reality, he would street fight

Aisha: no, not like, not actually street fight, but like he,

he was 

known for his punches. Yeah. It, it was his wife.

Jess: Okay. I was like, wait, was he like in the, in like the 

Indian MMA or something? Yeah, 

so no. [00:33:00] Okay. It was his vibe. He was 

carrying just like, don't mess with me vibe.

Aisha: Yes. Yes.

And so even now, like the, there was a book that one of my uncles wrote, and it's like, band, this guy was angry. You didn't mess with him. So people, like, if there were kids playing in the street or they were playing marbles in the street and my dad came in, they would just abandon the marbles and

Jess: Oh, well he was angry as a kid or as an adult

Aisha: I mean, he was very young at the time,

so he was probably preteen,

Jess: but he was already angry. What was he, what was he angry about?

Aisha: I wonder, I wonder, um, I think it was just a harsh world for him.

Jess: Hmm,

Aisha: I'm not sure why. Um, and you know, I guess there was maybe some civil dis, you know, challenges there, uh, in the community he lived in, but also like boys. The boys are angry and they're not allowed any other emotion except being angry.

So, especially two generations ago or one generation ago, like, that's, that's your, like, what, what else are you gonna do? Write poetry, you [00:34:00] know?

so, uh, that was his vibe. However, he, he was, he, like my mom had a big thirst for, for knowledge, you know, he was a big reader as well. My, I've always remembered him sitting on the, on the rocking chair, reading. That's how I remember him. Um, so when he was about 14, the riots broke out, uh, in 1947 where the Hindus and the Muslims clashed the short, long, and the short of it is that the British was supposed to leave a year later, but the left a year before, you know, literally redrawing the lines and creating this massive havoc. Angina, who was again, a very secular Muslim. Was secular, but he really wanted to say that if the British leave and you leave it without creating safeguards for the Muslim community, you will have absolute disintegration and chaos where you would replace one master with another. You'd replace the British Masters with the Hindu Masters, and that's not on, [00:35:00] you know, we are a modern democracy.

Let's use the British. Parliament and its constitution to provide safeguards for, for Muslims. That was a little unpalatable to the Hindu, um, leadership, including Gandhi and Nero. Um, you know, and so my husband's big thesis is that they rejected the cabinet mission plan, which would give Muslims equal rights. What happened as a result of that was Jenna said, fine, um, let's create Pakistan. Then he was using it as a bargaining chip, but they were like, yeah, sure, go ahead.

And that was. 

Jess: his bluff.

Aisha: Exactly. And also they didn't care, right? I mean, they didn't care what would come out of it. Uh, I think on Jenna's case, he didn't think through what would come out of it. And in Gandhi and Nero's case he was, they were probably like, we have a lot to deal with, you know? constituency is Hindu majority. We are not gonna gain anything from saying let these guys in. So I think it just created these bifurcations in all very different geographies. [00:36:00] Bangladesh over here, Pakistan majority over here in Hindu, in the middle. And then everybody in the middle gets to scramble in opposite directions.

Like if, if you're Hindu, go there, if you're, if you're Muslim, go here. Um, and that. Carnage. Of course, everyone now knows how bloody the partition was. But in, for my dad's neighborhood, what happened was there was a lot of, coexistence between the Hindus and the Muslims in that mahalla or or area.

But when the, when the partition happened, there was so much retaliatory violence that. All my father's brothers had to scramble. And my brother, my uncle says this to me that because my dad was a big fighter and a big park, were so, like back then in homes, were right next to each other. So to get from place A to place P, you didn't need to necessarily go down the stairs and walk the streets.

You just could jump, jump, um,

Jess: Oh, okay. I thought I misheard [00:37:00] you. You mean parkour like that? Like people jumping 

roofs. So, but that was just how they would get between houses.

Aisha: Yeah. And so he was saved. So everybody scattered. There was, there was, um, a Hindu mob that was looking for all the Muslim boys, and that's what happens in a genocide. You kill the boys first, right? So there was a mob with swords and everything looking for anybody who was a Muslim boy, and they were also very amazing people who were hiding the boys.

Jess: Right. Yeah.

Aisha: Despite being Hindu. So my dad got hid, uh, by one of the neighbors to give him some refuge because obviously when, when this happens, you, you ask the children to like just run.

So all of his brothers ran in different directions. He was jumping roofs, he was hidden. Then after a while, they started looking into the houses to see if they were hiding anyone, so he had to jump over more roofs.

Eventually, I think he got this big scar on his back because somebody did swipe a sword. it was obviously [00:38:00] extremely double oh seven, but not in a good way at all.

Jess: Yeah.

Aisha: Long story short, they made it to a refugee camp, and then after that they were moved to Karachi. Some people were found, some were not, some was lost, some was not.

Nobody talks about it with that much detail. all there is is a couple of scars and some, stories of,

becoming a hero. 

Jess: It's, it's hard to get into, 

especially with your own kids. yeah, and I think they just glossed over the cool stories, which is that thank God he was a fighter.

Aisha: Because he wouldn't have made it out of those very street fighty situations, you know, otherwise. yeah. They make it to Karachi

Jess: When you say they, you mean him and some of his siblings 

and 

parents? 

Aisha: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh, they make it to Karachi and Heba. So what happens is that. There's some kind of estate that says, oh, how much property did you have here? Okay, we'll give you something equivalent here.

And it was also sad the other way around. So the properties that these people got were of [00:39:00] similar Hindus that had to scramble in the other direction. Right. 

Uh, 

so yeah, I mean, don't, without getting into the, the science and the history of it too much, it was, I think a fear of migration. A fear of being evicted of your own homes. A fear that, you know. Anything can happen at any time,

and you just have to be prepared 

Jess: and,

that the majority around you, wherever you are, if you're in the minority, that they, some people might become part of a hateful mob 

and you don't know who, and you know, and you don't know who's gonna be trying to help you. And 

I mean, it just all sounds Yeah. Like really, really traumatic.

Aisha: Mm-hmm. So that's the, that's the ancestry. Um, but then I think in Karachi, my dad really didn't fit in as he got older. I think he had enough of the, some of the traditionalism that ended up, you know, he was more learned. So I think that he clashed with his father on a couple of things. And I've written an essay about [00:40:00] this where, His, bro elder brother's wife kind of raised him because that's how it was. The elder women raised the younger children and she was being bullied, um, in that household. So he kind of had enough and he gave them an ultimatum saying, I'm gonna leave respect this woman. The women are kind of fight, you know,

being a bit rude to her in the, in the household, and I think they didn't listen.

So he made a statement and he left for Uganda to be a teacher.

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: Uganda was also part of the Commonwealth at that time, so it was also like the continuity of these boundaries was very easy to do. So it was like moving to your own neighborhood?

Jess: It's like moving states, 

like 

in the us Yeah. So what year did he move and did he move just 

Aisha: He moved by himself. He moved really angry, didn't talk to his parents, from what I understand. Again, the anger was a major theme. His life, but it also noticed that it works for the underdog. Right.[00:41:00] 

He was standing up for a woman, I think he moved probably after his degree. So he was older.

And my dad, from what I understand, has a master's degree, um, and taught geography and history. So yeah, that was his thing. Um, he comes to Uganda. He has a best friend called Rashid 

And so Rashke was, had a daughter and that's, uh, had a, had a sister. And so my dad married his best friend's sister

Jess: So, but the best friend he met in Uganda.

Aisha: in Uganda. Yes.

Jess: they were just like in the same circles because,

Aisha: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jess: you know, Indian Muslims

Aisha: Yeah,

Jess: in East Africa, they're kind of like in similar, 

in both 

educated backgrounds Yeah. and 

Aisha: both a bit rebellious, like my uncle was also, liked to have a more modern take on Islam. Um, and also, yeah. And though I think they were both angry men,

Jess: uhhuh. 

Aisha: together, well.

Jess: okay, [00:42:00] so then the friend was like, Hey, do you wanna marry my sister? And he like arranged it.

Aisha: I don't know exactly how it played out, but all I know is that my dad was obviously Pakistani and from a different culture. It wasn't as clean as, oh, here's an Indian Muslim.

He was once, once the partition happened. Nothing was neutral. You were tagged as either here or there. And remember, Indian Muslims have to really retain their nationalism. So they really wore India on the flag, on their, on their, on their hands. And so did my father. My father was all about gen and the partition and how it was important to self-identify and self-actualize, and also self determine your own course of action. So these two were important cultures that were very similar, but after the partition, they did. They did have to survive in different ways.

These guys had to be on the side of India and these, because otherwise Indians would be like, why are you being a traitor? And, and my dad's side of the family and [00:43:00] everyone had to be Pakistan, you know,

Jess: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Aisha: so they dug it in. It, it was, it was literally like it intermarrying between two very different cultures, although they came from the same country.

Jess: Well, because during partition, the experience is like a very different side of history. It's like the flip side, right. of that really intense historical event. 

 I've seen, um, Indian matchmaking on Netflix. You know, I've watched it. Right? Have you watched it?

Aisha: I have binged it.

Jess: Yes. That's actually how I, 

did it too. I binged it. Yes.

Aisha: oh God, that is such a good show.

So there was, there was a bio data involved. Yes.

Jess: In South Asian matchmaking, a biodata is a profile that shows your personal family education and work info, including details like your height, age, and maybe your interests. It is commonly used in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and South Asian communities [00:44:00] worldwide. Families and professional mash makers often use biodata to introduce potential partners.

 did they get to meet up first?

Like how, how much information and agency did both sides have 

Aisha: I think my dad was marrying his best friend's sister because he liked his best friend and how, that was a pretty whatever my mom got to saw. See my dad, I think a glimpse or something, uh, because this is how arranged marriages worked. She also had somebody else that she could have married and she couldn't decide.

So she coin tossed.

Jess: Really, 

that's how your 

dad, 

he 

Wow. His side of the coin. 

 Had she met both before she couldn't decide, so, so it sounds like she was the 

one that was she, she was the one that had the deciding power.

Aisha: Not really. She was given two choices.

Jess: Well, okay. But she got, okay. So it sounds like she was the one that got to choose between her options.

Aisha: Yeah. One was a [00:45:00] cousin.

Jess: So the other guy was the cousin and then the. 

And then your dad, so 

it's two. And then she, did she see them before she chose, but 

Aisha: She obviously had seen her 

cousin 

and knew her cousin. Uh, my dad, I think he got, she got a glimpse of him. Uh, she was very unsure about going into this realm of a very different culture. Look, they, these are people. My mom's side of the family are people who live on near the sea. They're not landlocked.

They have enough resources. They'll always be fish, you know, they're chill people. My dad's side of the family are people who are within a landlocked culture. These things really matter. Water really matters. You know how you divide. Resources really matter. So he, she was, she was, I think, a bit apprehensive about my dad, but then she couldn't also determine, so I think the coin toss really helped, and life is one big coin to coin tos

Jess: Wow. So she let the coin decide

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: Because it was like, I just, I'm just thinking about her choices [00:46:00] at that point in time. You know, one was someone she knew a lot about

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: and probably, you know, like similar language culture, I'm assuming also in Nairobi.

Aisha: Correct,

Jess: And then the other person is like someone from a different country, very, and then like immigrated or moved to, east Africa, like a very different timeline, like different generational, you know, experience.

And then also she would have to move 

to be married to him. 

Aisha: Uganda.

Jess: Okay. 

So it's just like the, they're just such opposite choices 

and 

Aisha: Mm-hmm. 

Jess: I, I, I get that, that would be very hard to decide on her own. Uh, but that's a, yeah. What, what an image of your mom tossing a coin.

Aisha: Ah, okay.

Jess: Wow.

Aisha: It's you.

Jess: Wow. how old was she at that time?

Aisha: So I think she was pretty young, uh, [00:47:00] but older than she should have been based on those. Like my grandmother, Aisha

again was, rumor has it between 13, 14 when she married and came to Kenya

on a ship. So my mom was way older than that. Maybe she was in her twenties,

early 20, which was as far as culture is concerned, like way too old.

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: So there was an urgency to get done. And remember women, you know, although respected and loved, but were property, you had to move them on to their other owner. 

Jess: Across many patriarchal religious traditions and cultures, including Christianity, Hinduism, Confucianism, and Buddhism. Women have often faced social and legal limits on their autonomy, sometimes treated as dependences or property. This isn't unique of Muslim societies. Islamic texts include rights for women including owning property and consenting to marriage.

How those [00:48:00] rights are understood and practiced varies widely across cultures and history. 

Aisha: So there was this urgency that you know, who's gonna take her. I think about it as Bridgeton

Jess: We're really referencing a lot of great, um, 

great. 

Aisha: TV shows.

Jess: Yes. Venture my TV shows to make someone this all more relatable to us. Right. In the 2020s now. wow. Okay. So then your dad comes and they marry in Kenya and then they go 

to Uganda together. 

Aisha: Correct?

Yes. 

Jess: Thanks so much for listening and being here. Part two drops in two Tuesdays. Make sure to hit the subscribe and follow button and turn on notifications so you don't miss it. In part two, we dive into the family life that her parents built together. How IIA means expulsion of Asians from Uganda impacted their family and Aisha's childhood [00:49:00] memories growing up in a rural area.

Links to connect with Aisha and her work are in the description. If you liked this episode, share it with a friend. Word of mouth really helps us grow. This episode was produced and edited by me with advising and executive production support from Ruben Gnanaruban. I'm Jess Lin. Take care of yourself and see you soon.