Aisha, Part 3. Pakistani American - Be Tamed

Episode photo credit: Asher Imtiaz https://www.asherimtiaz.com/

In Part 3 of Aisha’s story, we follow her journey through adolescence and young adulthood as she navigates loss, family, and identity. After losing her father during childhood—a central figure in her life and a source of deep love—Aisha grapples with childhood grief, searches for a sense of home, and learns to code-switch between different cultural contexts and varying expressions of Islam across Muslim communities. This episode explores themes of growing up, father-daughter love, childhood bereavement, feminism, belonging, and the complexities of Pakistani American and Muslim identity.

Full episode on Youtube: https://youtu.be/nVBFYxkMvPs

Follow Aisha:

On Instagram @aishafsarwari and @heart_tantrums
On X @AishaFSarwari
On Youtube @aishasarwari2134 

Her memoir is called Heart Tantrums and Brain Tumours and can be ordered on from Hurst Publishers at https://www.hurstpublishers.com/profile/aisha-sarwari/ 

Transcript

Transcript generated by AI and may contain errors

 [00:00:00] 

Jess: You are listening to Cultureful. I'm your host, Jess Lin.

This is part three of my four-part conversation with Aisha Sarwari. In part two, we talked about her childhood in Uganda. After Idi Amin's expulsion of Asians and how her family chose to stay when so many others left. In this episode, Aisha shares the big love story between her and her father and how his loss reshaped her life.

She takes us through her adolescence, moving to Kenya and learning to code switch between Muslim communities with different expressions of Islam.

 We follow her into young adulthood as she searches for belonging and builds her identity

and then comes the unexpected, meet cute with her future husband.

 It is a conversation that moved us to both laughter and tears, and I'm so glad to share it with you. As always, you can [00:01:00] watch the video version on YouTube. I hope you enjoy.

Welcome back Aisha.

Aisha: Thank you, Jess, for having me. ever since we spoke last time, been itching to get back on the call with you.

Jess: Ooh, itching. I like that. Okay, cool. Okay, so,

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: um, just to remind us and the listeners, um, last time we left off at, um, you're in Uganda in Rural Mbale. Uh, you moved there around age eight or nine and it was a place where you had freedom to enjoy the natural landscape. You made a new friend, you were in like a posse with some girls.

Um, and yeah, so I wanna start there, I wanna get to know Aisha as a kid at that point. Um, let's talk about your home life What was your parents' relationship like?

And that, you know, a lot of times like pours into like the home environment, right? So, so what was their relationship like, um, at that [00:02:00] point?

Aisha: I think when you're a child, home is the safest place, you know? Um, it, it doesn't need to be safe or beautiful, but like I said, my mom made everything safe and very, very pretty. Um, so, you know, the garden with the dahlias and the roses and the grafting,

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: you know, and the 

fish person coming to sell the fish to my mom a bike, you know, fresh fish.

And then she would teach me, okay, this is how gills of a fish are fresh when they're, you know, salmon colored or pink. And then if it's not fresh, it's kind of dull. so you learned along the way. Then there was a woman by the name of Mama Bogoya, who was woman, banana woman. So she would come with this big, you know, thing on her head with all the bananas.

God knows how she carried all of them. 'cause there was a. Big basket on her head, which she was balanced without holding because she had, you know, this thing in which [00:03:00] it was rested. So day began with all of these visits, you know, of people coming to Housewives because they couldn't leave. Um, my mom was pretty home bound. I didn't see her ever get up and be like, okay, I'm leaving to go somewhere and

Jess: Even to like a market or anything.

Aisha: No, my dad did all of that stuff.

Jess: Wow.

Aisha: So, so this was her sort of like, engagement with the rest of the world. Of course there were social events that she would dress up in her sarees and everything to go to, but mostly it was around these people coming in one by one, you know, selling to her, making the decisions. We also didn't have a fridge for a very long time. So the downside of that is, of course you don't have a fridge and you need to keep boiling the milk.

And I even once got burnt by boiling milk because you had to keep boiling it to keep it fresh. Um, but then you also didn't have a fridge, which meant fresh food every day.

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: Um, [00:04:00] yeah, I remember that. Uh, you know, waking up to the smell of these Indian pancakes that my mom used to make, which were absolutely delicious. 

 So yeah, just the smell of pancakes. And then she was a very playful mom. She would be like, I'd be in the back and she'd be like, oh, I can smell a cat. I wonder if there's a cat. You know, it's so

Jess: Wow.

Aisha: like that, you know? And

Jess: Uhhuh.

Aisha: do you know I'm here? She's like, you just, I just know. And, you

Jess: Oh, that almost got me for a second. She didn't actually smell the cat. She just was playful and said she smelled okay. I was like, well, how did she smell a cat? Okay.

Aisha: How do you spell her cat? Yeah, exactly. So she would, she would take us into this make belief world. She was playful enough, she would sing sometimes and hum, you know,

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: uh, the kitchen was not the best place 'cause it was very gruesome. Obviously a lot of, you know, cleaning and, and scrubbing.

But it was also I think, her own domain,

end to end. She had a demand over it. We eventually did get a fridge and she felt like a queen after that. You know,

Jess: Yeah.

Aisha: she's like, I got a fridge, [00:05:00] don't mess with me.

Jess: Uh, because it completely changes the way you, not only cook, but also organize your whole day. And like, 'cause if you're not dealing with, like, having to procure fresh food or deal with fresh food all the time. Yeah.

Aisha: And also wars, like we spoke about the Civil War would get everybody have a curfew and. know, there would be no milk for days and might have, dad would have to go into a war zone to get

milk. Whereas after the fridge, that changes, you know, your

Jess: Yeah.

Aisha: safety. The fridge was a very important part of, know, the bougie life

of, um, Kampala.

But then also when we moved to Mbale, I think that job for my dad was a much better job. So there was far more abundance, you know, although we were in a rural setting, but we, we were sort of like the elite of Mbale,

Jess: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Aisha: say that. Yeah. Fridge and all, and tv.

Jess: Oh.

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: That that is really, really VIP.

Aisha: [00:06:00] Indeed. Yeah.

Jess: And so what was their relationship like? Your parents?

Aisha: Um, my mom and dad, like, I think like a lot of, um, Indian moms and dads of that era had, they were split half in the center between a commanding husband. Also um, equal and egalitarian relationship, you know, because they were in transition where the generation before them, the, the woman was property.

Right. And in this generation of my mom and dad's generation, there was you, this idea of equality being like, this is an intellectual being. You take her along, you have a companionship. So that was the word they used for each other a lot, like companions. They would

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: in the evening, you know, my dad would carry me on his shoulders. Um, we'd look at the full moon and they would just talk about stuff. You know, sometimes they'd hold hands, which I wouldn't like at all. But,

Jess: Why not?

Aisha: I don't know. I kind of felt like my [00:07:00] dad's mine, like,

Jess: Oh,

Aisha: mess with him. Right.

Jess: okay. That's not what I expected. I thought you were gonna say like, oh, PDA or something, but so you are possessive of your dad.

Aisha: yeah. That's the only way I know

Jess: Wow.

Aisha: love, unfortunately. It's like if it's, if I love it, it's mine. That's it. Like, yeah. I

Jess: Oh my gosh.

Aisha: I know. I'm sorry for myself and everyone I love as well. Yeah. My mom too. That's how I love her. Where she talks to my cousins and stuff. I, I do get very busy being like, take her then I don't want her. Yeah. It's this very, very childish

Jess: But this is wild because you have siblings. It's like I just. Dunno how that, okay.

Aisha: was the youngest. Right. So they were not around.

Jess: Okay.

Aisha: It was just me. Like, I had, I think my dad was 50 when he had me, and my mom was in her 40, like she was about 40 and they had about a nine to 10 year gap. And so when,

Jess: Oh, your closest [00:08:00] sibling was nine year.

Aisha: seven years older to me, my

Jess: Okay.

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: So you were almost an only child,

Aisha: Almost an only child.

Jess: but you were the baby. Capital B, the baby. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. It's making sense now. It's making sense now.

Aisha: Yeah. It's all coming together

Jess: Yeah.

Aisha: uh, how, how the mess starts. So, yeah. I mean, just it's, uh, I would

Jess: Well

Aisha: and be like, yeah, stop with that hand holding. You know, I'm on your shoulders. You can't hold her hand. Um,

Jess: how rude

Aisha: yeah. How rude, like it's my dad.

Jess: Uhhuh. Wow. That leads very well into my next question, which was gonna be, um, for you to kind of talk about, like, as a kid, 

what was your personality like? So besides like the possessiveness of everyone and everything that you loved, um, yeah. What were you like as a kid

Aisha: Hmm. No one's asked me this question,

Jess: really? What, what do you mean? No, [00:09:00] like

Aisha: No one's asked me this specific

Jess: even when you were dating your husband, he didn't ask you this.

Aisha: no. We were, when I was dating my

husband, we were talking about the big stuff, right? Like

how to change the world. Um.

Jess: oh, I thought you meant like whether you want kids or where you wanna live or, okay. How to change the world. Okay. That's jumping ahead. Um, we'll get there. That's on the list of things to, to be asked.

Um, okay. So, so back to

Aisha: as a kid?

Jess: yeah. This question that you've apparently never been asked before.

Aisha: it's a, it's a tough question 'cause you are a kid. You think that's how you are, but how was I, I think I was, um, a bit, uh, of a tomboy. Lots of pictures of me in trees and uh, elder brother who's, um, younger than, uh, the eldest brother was sort of, I was like his project. You know, he sort of was like, okay, this is interesting.

Uh, he was very close to my sister, but then when I was born, he just shunned her away being like, I'm done with you.

Jess: Oh,[00:10:00] 

Aisha: now.

Jess: oh, no.

Aisha: And so he, he was sort of experimenting with this idea of how far can she go? So like, how far up the tree can she go, you know, how far can she run? What can I build her? How far can I throw up the sky? So a lot of that, you know, and there was a 14 year difference between me and him. So

Jess: Wow.

Aisha: he was, you know, that person. And I remember being also very much like his little pet. There was once

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: a runny nose and he obviously studying in the same high school my dad taught at, you know, in the campus. And he went, walked to school and I was, I think two years old or three barely walking. followed him to school, like, you know, that nursery rhyme. Followed him to school one day. and he walked into his class and his classmates were like, oh my God, who's that behind you? Like, and I was in my little. You know, dress and my nose running and everything.

And he, you know, typically a kid that age would be really embarrassed,

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: you know, being like, oh my God, my kid, kid, sister followed me to school. But he was really cute. He was so proud [00:11:00] of me. He showed me off and then he carried me back home. So imagine, imagine walking all the way after him, obviously calling after him that he couldn't here.

So that was sort of like, I think I was, I was very loved. and it's nice to be someone's project, you know? Um, because it, it obviously, I, I think in so many ways, I still am, you know, he's, he's been the one who's sort of like always been, pushing me to do more, uh, professionally. Creatively, yeah.

So, how was I as a child, you know? Yeah. I think because of that, I, I was always about, you know, how high can I go? How far can I run? How do I conquer my fear, you know? It, it, he did, he did instill a lot of ambition in me as a kid. Um, lots of, uh, scrapes on my knees, a lot of me jumping onto the boys and punching them

in Mm-hmm.

you know, so just very rough, always going up and climbing mountains and trees and that, that kind of thing.

I think it set the

tone. 

Jess: [00:12:00] so physical, outdoorsy, ambitious, would you say competitive?

Aisha: Um, maybe not that competitive 'cause I just, I just enjoyed, you know,

where I was outdoors. It was, I think, more fun than competitive, just

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: you know, as opposed to winning.

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: And, um, at some point around this time, your dad gets diagnosed with cancer,

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: that right?

Aisha: Yes.

He, he was a late. I think he, he got diagnosed late, like a lot of colon cancer patients, especially in the nineties. they kept misdiagnosing him with other things. Um, when they finally diagnosed him, the cancer had spread quite a bit. So about two years he was misdiagnosed. And towards the last six months when he was diagnosed, he refused And I sort of saw him, you know, just with her as, cancer patients do. Um, and you know, as I say, everything [00:13:00] sort of changes. My brothers had left to study abroad. They had come to America. Um, um, sister was with me, but you know, she was, um, off to get married soon. And I think everything happened in a rush.

My elder brother was married because again, everybody was like, okay, let's do it while he's alive, you know?

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: So both my siblings got married, like in a Jiffy. I saw him really shrink into his clothes, which was not nice for. Somebody who was on his shoulders, you know, and see him completely be this other person and frail. and so I think for a kid that was sort of, of course Uganda wasn't without its fears, but the home was the most secure place, you know, and they created that security and that expression. So for me to see him become everything that he wasn't, you know, he was a strong man. He became a weak man. He was a very talkative man.

He became silent. He was a very [00:14:00] intellectual man. He became emotional and spiritual, you know, so

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: he was unrecognizable on so many of those fronts. my mom's relationship to hip him changed. She became very obsessive about him, obviously, understandably, because, you know, he, she was his caretaker. Um, yeah.

And he had this talk with me where he said, you know, you know, I'm gonna die and. I said, yeah, I've heard that you have this disease. And he said, well, better me than your mom. And I actually told him, I was like, no, better her than you. You know?

Jess: You were like 10, 11 at this point.

Aisha: I was about 10, 11. Um, and so he was quite shocked at me saying that.

And he said, no, you're a girl. You need a mom. And I kept pushing

Jess: Mm

Aisha: being like, as if there's a choice, as if I was like, whoever made that calculation, can you go back to him and kind of flip it

Jess: mm-hmm.

Aisha: swap it,

Jess: Can you go negotiate please?

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: Oh.

Aisha: this contract. but he was, he [00:15:00] wasn't, think he was taken by how much I, I wanted him to stay. Yeah.

Jess: so you said he became more spiritual at the end.

Aisha: mm-hmm.

Jess: you talk more about that?

Aisha: My dad, like, I think I told, told you about in the first part, he wasn't very religious or dogmatic or ritualistic, but towards the end he really sort of got into, you know, the life of the prophet and the values and peace and love and of course meaning and things like that. he still wouldn't be ritualistic, but he, his intellect and his politics and his geography turned inwards, know,

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: so he started talking more about, you know, the history of, of Islam and how, you know, idea should always be to give back to community. he started apologizing, I think, to my brothers mostly for being harsh earlier, you know, which was not [00:16:00] his, uh, temperament. Like I said, he was like a fighter, you know? He was always the one. creating the chaos. And so for him in his end of life, saying, you know, being lucky, I think he wrote them a letter saying, I'm sorry.

Jess: Wow.

Aisha: I, he was, to me unrecognizable 'cause I kind of liked the macho part of him 'cause I

felt protected by it. And I was like, who's this soft man? You know?

Jess: mm-hmm.

Aisha: Um, not good. Reverse renegotiate.

Jess: Oh, where's my dad?

Aisha: Where is my dad. Yeah.

And also the, the pace at which someone gets sick, you know, though it was two years where he was gradually getting sick the last six months were unbelievably, um, you know, he became quite, quite skeletal and frail and then and it scared a child, you know, like, yeah. I don't think children, they don't mind old people, but this absolute fear of sickness and old age and death. The [00:17:00] combination of those three is really scary.

Jess: Yeah, 'cause I was gonna ask being a kid, being a young kid, you know, maybe like around 9, 10, 11 was when you were seeing this happen and they were telling you, trying to prepare you.

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: Do you think you understood what death was at that point?

Aisha: Mm-hmm. Um, so the first time I heard my dad had cancer was when my mom was telling my sister in the kitchen they were making rotes. And, you know, she was like, yeah, I think it's, it's the big seats, the cancer. And so I could see my sister's face really worried. and um, just there as if I wasn't there.

So I was just this fly on the wall. Um. The second time my brother took me for a walk, my eldest brother, who was a doctor. Um, so he very, very calmly said, you know how it is, you know how death works. He has cancer, he is not gonna make it. He's gonna pass away. We'll be here. Of course, I [00:18:00] didn't understand any of that.

And all I remember was that he was holding my hand and he was, um, you know, making thumb circles on my, on my hand.

so I kinda, I think I disassociated tuned it out and just focused on that. It was too much, think. and the other thing I didn't understand was how, because I'd never seen, of course I'd seen an uncle who had once passed on, the one that I was telling you was the chief justice of Kenya.

So I'd seen him and that sort of like, know the body, but I hadn't ever put two and two together that it would happen to my dad.

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: there someday with, you know, cotton in his nose and unresponsive and. Um, death changes, everything. Like you can prepare for it, but the moment it happens, it's like everything has shifted. Your relationship to your own self has shifted. You know, it's not so much that the person is going and now that they're gone, but it's like, even are you, [00:19:00] you know? Um,

Jess: You mean the person that's still. Here and alive. Who are you? What do you mean?

Aisha: I think I didn't want to be there. That was one thing that, um, now that I've, you know, gone through years and years of therapy that I understand that I wanted to leave with him and I didn't like this

Jess: Hmm?

Aisha: idea that he gets to go without me.

Jess: The separation.

Aisha: The separation and also the lack of agency being like, I told him that I choose him and he didn't act on it. And of course, like this is a child's logic, right? And he left anyway, then I, I must be bad and I

couldn't, I couldn't stop him. and so the least I can do is sort of recreate a world where, you know, I live as if he would want me to. So, you know, that was the other trauma response being like, he want me to eat this? Would he want me to live in the city? Would he want

Jess: Oh my gosh.

Aisha: person? Would he want me to like, have kids in Pakistan? Would he, so it [00:20:00] became that, you know, constant. Um, yeah, that moment was very powerful. When the day he died in 1992.

Jess: Just after that you were trying to hear his voice for every decision that you made

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: after that.

Aisha: I also did really dumb things like, now that I think about it, I did contact some psychics and mediums and, um, you know, spent my brother's very hard earned money on that stuff. He was like, why do I have a $200 bill on my, on my phone? Who are you talking to? I was like, I'm trying to reach that.

Jess: Aw. But

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: I mean, I can see how, when the person that you lost is like, sounds like he was. Like your person, like your main person, right? Like up to that point in your life and you didn't want it to happen, you were [00:21:00] powerless to stop it. And like, of course you're gonna try whatever you can,

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: know, in the off chance

that you get to, to talk to him again.

You know, even for just like a little bit or like for someone to tell you like, oh, he, of course you wanna, you wanna like bridge that separation that is so painful, right?

Aisha: And also becoming so worried about is he okay? Hmm.

And so also, like when he died and he was buried, I didn't get to go to the, the funeral. I think that had a very big impact on, on me because a, I was sent off to school on the day he was dying

Jess: What?

Aisha: would be too much for me to see.

So

Jess: Oh.

Aisha: family decided that it would be too much because, you know, he was, you know, he had, he was lost stages of cancer. He might have bled, and, you know,

they didn't want me to get, you know, to, to have the front seat to that. I think that was the, in retrospect, might not not be a good idea because I felt [00:22:00] explused. I felt removed. and then when they were taking the body, I wanted to stop them and follow the body

when 

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: pre procession was going. And by the way, the entire campus, in university, in Mbale was following, following it, right? And so the, everybody got to go,

but the women, and so that feeling like they're taking the shell of whatever it is that's left of him away, and they're not asking me, everyone else gets to go with me. yeah. And then the six feet under thing is, is also its own drama, being like it's soil. Um, yeah. So I think that there was, it was a bit too much to handle. Um, and I, I didn't go back to the grave either, because obviously by that time I developed a lot of fear of what lays there. You know, is he even there? It took me so many years to go back to East Africa, I think 2015 when I finally to the grave, and I think we were supposed [00:23:00] to have done fatiha, which is like the prayer that you do for the dead. It's

a closure prayer. We, we do, like sur is one of the most, um, red prayers in our, in, in Islam, but, well, specifically when someone dies, it's like closing, you know?

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: So I didn't do that. And so in 2015, I, I finally did it.

Jess: So it's something that everyone reads for the person that is pess.

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: And when your dad passed, because you were so young, they didn't want you to go and because you're a female and so you didn't get to do it,

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: your brothers,

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: they there? Like they had the opportunity to do that and they didn't have to wait, and then you, it did it like it feel like unfinished business this whole time.

Aisha: it also felt like now I'm not gonna go, like, it felt like, okay, this is controlled, so now I'm not gonna do it. He's like, it was also like, because if it's closure, then he's there.

[00:24:00] Whereas if it's not closure, then he gets to live with me or me with him,

Jess: Like, you don't have to say goodbye yet if you're not saying

the closing prayer.

Aisha: yeah,

Jess: Oh my gosh. 

Aisha: yeah, a lot to unpack there for me, even now that I'm thinking about it, I think that, that, um, there, there, there are reasons why rituals got created, you know? So, but when I finally did in 2015, it was a United Nations conference I'd gone to for Kenya. I was, I was speaking on it and I took a, you know, trip with my uncle, his brother. Because he's still in Kenya, um, over to Uganda. And then we finally did the fatia. And one of the things I realized is that the chatter in my head stopped. Like I go to him and I'm like, okay, you've been speaking to me constantly and I'm here now. Like finally. there was nothing. was just birds chirping a mango tree which he was buried. It was nothing. And it was so [00:25:00] weird. I'm like, I'm like, hello. You know, like

Jess: I am here now.

Aisha: I'm

Jess: I'm here.

Aisha: took me a while, but I'm here like, um, that was in its own way, a bit liberating. 'cause I was like, it's, you know, I've been calling the dead. He wasn't doing any of that. It was all me. 

Jess: Sorry, I'm a little bit emotional. That's emotional. did it feel like, Like by, you're going to say goodbye finally, that he was, you were letting him go and that was kind of, I don't know. That was letting you go.

Aisha: I don't think any of that happened, unfortunately, even though I did the,

even though my uncle read Surah Yasin, which is another thing you read when, um, you go to the graves. Um, it was beautiful. I cried. And then obviously we have a ritual where we water the grave, like, you know, we pour water on the grave. So that was very healing. But I think because [00:26:00] I'd lived with him my head directionally for so long, I mean, the moment I, I got on a flight and I came back, he was back.

Jess: Really.

Aisha: Yeah. Because, you know, I was just, yeah, it's not, I, I don't think rituals help if your heart's not in it, you know,

Jess: Hmm

Aisha: so it's my big secret that, whenever I'm lost in life or I'm or, you know, I meditate where I go to this place in my head, this happy place, which is a beach, and and I just sit and chat like, and he's very real in that place, you

know? I know. It's a delusional, it's woo woo. But I get to see him and, you know, he gets to impart some wisdom or he just gets to sit there, read or, um, yeah, leave me something to eat. Um, it's very day to day. It's very sort of, yeah. I think when you're not ready to [00:27:00] let someone go, you can still, they don't get to choose that they've left. You get to keep them, you know, um, in your imagination, in your letters, in your life. And so everything in my life has been about him. Just its own sort of

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: love and tragedy, you know?

Jess: Yeah. Thanks for sharing.

Aisha: Thank you for, um. Honoring a very private, you know, father and daughter relationship that I hope all, all little girls have to to have a loving father. Like that.

Jess: I don't, well, I don't think it's delusional, the like thing. I think, um, I've also done some therapy. Fun fact, right? I mean, who hasn't now I think, you know, a lot of people [00:28:00] have and, and you know, like an EMDR, eye desensitization movement, em eye movement

Aisha: Rep,

Jess: desensitization,

Aisha: desensitization.

Jess: so, okay. Anyway, EMDR,

Aisha: Very

Jess: know, one of the things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Super helpful for me. Um, at certain points in my, in my life. And I remember, you know, part of it, like I've had therapists tell me like, I am supposed to. Find a place that brings me peace or brings me calm or whatever makes me feel safe. And I am supposed to think about someone who, you know, I forget.

They're like three categories and like, and one of the categories is like someone wise, you know, and someone, and, and then you kind of just have a conversation with them. And it sounds like one of those people for you is your dad.

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: And so I don't think it's delusional, [00:29:00] especially if you know, as long as you know, it's like not,

Aisha: long as

Jess: know,

Aisha: know Yeah,

Jess: like what you're seeing in real life.

Yeah. So

Aisha: Yeah.

Jess: anyway, please be nice to my friend whose name is Aisha, who I'm interviewing right now. Okay. Don't call her delusional. When she's not having delusions. Yeah. She's going to a special place. Yeah, she's, she's like project managing the delusion. She's sitting in a meditative position. She's going to her happy place. She's calling.

she.

Aisha: man.

Jess: Yeah. And she, she's using this very effective, very researched technique, you know,

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: like, manage

Aisha: Grief

Jess: life

Aisha: and grief.

Jess: and grief and mental health and all of it. So, yeah. 

Aisha: I'm waiting for him to, to go like, I think, you know, I've been waiting all my life, like my, a lot of my therapists were like, you need to let him go. You need to bury him. Um, that's what, that's when I went to 2015. 'cause one of my therapists is like, you know, you to end this. Right?

And he hasn't ended, [00:30:00] you know, no matter how wise I've gotten, no matter how many years I've piled on me, still there. And I think,

Jess: hmm.

Aisha: I don't want to, you know,

Jess: Yeah.

Aisha: not because I'm, I'm not ready or that negotiation didn't happen or whatever. I'm not a child. But because you know, it, it's solace. You know, who gave you, you know, both love and joy and and terror. You get to see them. You get to kind of, you know, go back and be like, Hey, you are still my person. You might have gone, but

Jess: Oh,

Aisha: person. You know?

Jess: yeah.

 After the break, Aisha and her mom moved to Kenya as she grapples with the loss of her father.

[00:31:00] after your dad passes, then in 1993, when you're about 12, your family moves to Kenya.

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: So what was the thinking behind that and like, what were the circumstances Was it your mom's choice? Was it, yeah. Tell us about that move.

Aisha: I don't think my mom chose anything really. I don't think she had many preferences. kind of remember was, um, a wife and then she became a mom after her husband died, you know? So that became the primary relationship. So my brothers, who now, I think they were so young, they were in their twenties making this big decisions, and they also lost their dad, you know?

And my sister

Jess: Yeah.

Aisha: lost his dad. But for me, I don't know why. I feel like, know, my grief is bigger. Maybe because my dad was sweeter with me because he, he, he had become older, you know,

and she was no longer than angry man. but, uh, my brothers were making the call in terms of what's, what's better, [00:32:00] what's good for them, what's good for me and my mom. And Nairobi seemed like a good choice because my aunts were there uh, my mom had always visited them during Eid. And you know, there, there was a familiarity there. And it wasn't too far. was just one country over, they were in the US at the time studying. And so they were in no position to take care of us, or, you know,

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: that big interesting thing that we couldn't just pick up and go to another country.

We had to limited by the countries in which we were residents and, and which would let us in. So Kenya was easy. My mom was a Kenyan passport holder, so, 

Jess: And it was you and your mom and your sister had already gotten married, so she was staying

Aisha: and gone to Australia. Yeah,

Jess: Oh, she was in Australia. And your brothers were in the US

so just you and your mom were moving.

Aisha: me and my mom. Yeah.

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: And then I started of course, noticing my mom. I'm like, who?

Who? Hi again.

Jess: What do you mean? Noticing your mom? You hadn't noticed her this whole, like she was in the background,

Aisha: She is

Jess: [00:33:00] your dad was kind of this like big love

Aisha: Mm,

Jess: and then she was just like the other person.

Aisha: The other person,

Jess: Oh.

Aisha: I was like, hi, you were the one that was supposed to like, you know, the short end of the negotiation I wanted, but now you're here, you know? So I think I resented her. Plus also, I was a teenager, remember, and mothers and daughters in that age are just volcanic. And you know, I think my brothers and my dad gave me all this love and power and patriarchal power, like spoiled me a little. 

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: um, I was thrust into this very matriarchal world where the women were choices on how the men wanted the girls to live. So, like I said, it was very, uh, good conduct, propriety, cross your legs, you know, do your Quran studies. Um. Be a good girl. [00:34:00] Don't think about boys. And a lot of, don't think about boys. Don't think about boys over and over again, even before you have matured enough to think about boys. You know? 

Jess: Preemptive. Don't think about boys because they don't know when you're gonna start thinking about boys. It starts at different times for different people, so they just, you know, like,

Aisha: at birth. at birth. But I like, just like whisper

Jess: oh,

Aisha: in your ear when

Jess: don't think about boys.

Aisha: Nothing about

Jess: Uhhuh.

Aisha: Um, so there was a lot of that and I didn't appreciate that because it took me away from the natural world that I was part of in Uganda, you know,

um, the trees and the, the freedom and the, I just liked one man the shots.

And not all of these people, not all of these uncles and aunts. And, you know, something that happens to, uh. Uh, family systems when a new entrant comes in. So I was new and I was different. And so I think what happens is that, uh, you, the new person that's entering an an system is that they [00:35:00] absorb everything that's wrong with that system. They're like, oh, before you came, everything was perfect, you know, before you came, like, we didn't do this. This is not how we do things. So there, it was like entry into that world of propriety where girls are very obedient and there's nothing wrong with being obedient, but obedient to, silence. You know, like silence is great. The best girl is the most silent girl, um, that I, I think I sort of rebelled against. And they could see that I wasn't uncomfortable with that. So they, they doubled down on it a little more. So they were like, oh, this one is, this one's gonna give us trouble, know, and then singled me out, labeled me. Uh, I think it, it was very, very clear that they had a problem with my disapproval of things. it was like, who do you think you are? Disapproving things,

you little, whatever, right? So it was a lot of cutting me to size. Um, inadvertently, of course, like people don't consciously hurt a child. They just [00:36:00] are irritated by a child or they're annoyed by a child, or they wanna tame a child, or they want to discipline a child and in the process just break its spirit, you know? So that was one of the major clashes. it seemed to me like it was my mom's fault 'cause that was, those were her relatives. and, uh, I didn't understand where all this targeted specific labeling and all of this came from. 'cause I was like, I, what have I done?

You 

know, yet what have I done yet? and then I think I started, like teenagers to develop a sense of independent identity.

So at some point I tried to assimilate, be like, okay, I'm not Pakistani, you know, because I think that was the other thing that was going on there. The Indian Muslim versus Pakistani perspective, you know, and I think I explained that Indian Muslims feel that they have to preserve their culture in a very specific way.

And, the way my dad brought me up was, in a free flowing state, right? So that that can [00:37:00] be a major clash. 'cause it's like, what if everyone turns out like her?

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: So I was, I mean, if they could, they would tie my feet, you know, but they did the intellectual equivalent of that.

Jess: What do you mean by intellectually tying your feet?

Aisha: I think it was a, it was the preemptive stuff, you know, don't do this, don't do this, don't do

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: Even before I wanted to do any of that stuff, then it was the labeling, you know, bad girl, she's not like our kids. and it was just, when you enter a room, I would just, A child does not need to be told they're not welcome, right? So you'd enter a room and everybody, everybody would shift.

Jess: Oh,

Aisha: now of course I understand that I was not just a child, I was to them, philosophy or something different, or it was, I was carrying much more political other weight in their life than just being a child. But I didn't understand that at that time.

So I, I took that quite personally. comparison, uh, the reminders of how I should, and I did everything wrong. May I add, because [00:38:00] I wasn't from there. So whatever I would attempt, I would mess up

cooking, cleaning, praying. All of it. All of it was just too regimented. It was like being in a boarding school and not knowing how to, to tie your shoe laces and make your bed in 30 seconds, you

know, I kept failing. 

Jess: because it, sounds like you grew up in Uganda your dad's circles were Pakistani. The circles were intellectual academic,

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: and your dad was more on the culturally Muslim side rather than like very conservatively religious.

And then meanwhile, now with your mom's side, it's like. smaller community of Kni Indian Muslims

that sound like they're much more conservative in their practices. It's also a different country language history.

Aisha: Yes.

Jess: Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. So, so many different levels of a different context that [00:39:00] now you are thrown into as like a preteen than a teenager.

Aisha: Yeah. And now I have the parent that I didn't want next to me,

calling the shots, being like, be obedient. And my mom did the best she could, but the only way she could was to say, get in line, be tamed. You know?

Jess: She was like wanting you to, to pass as

one of

Aisha: test.

Jess: the other people in this new place that you

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: have to live.

Aisha: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jess: what was the, the living situation, the housing situation?

Aisha: we were living above the house of one of my uncles who's now in England. Um, he was older and I kind of really got along with him, you know, so he was, um. Shaku Mamu. He was, you know, at at least a

wiser older guy.

Jess: is he the one that was your dad's friend?

Aisha: No, no, not the same person that was the one in Australia.

he was, uh, just say loving and kind,

um, compared to, compared to rest of the clan. I [00:40:00] wouldn't say that they were not loving and kind in their minds. They were taming me so that whoever I married would find me tamed and passed and moldable, they're doing a very important social cause. Like,

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: you think about it from my aunt's perspective, they're like, if she, if we send her to her married house with this streak or whatever it is that she is, it will be a dishonor on us. 'cause she thinks on her own, she speaks her mind, or at least she has the propensity to speak her mind. She, you know, is angry. Like, one of the things that they used to say is like, you know, she has anger at the tip of her nose. Of course I'm angry. My dad died,

Jess: Yeah.

Aisha: but instead of sort of like dealing with that and not taking it personally, they took it personally being like, who first?

And it was also like a bit like, the kind of environment we are in now politically, which is like, oh, you're in this country. You're here on a particular status. Why aren't you thankful enough? [00:41:00] You know,

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: you grateful enough? Why aren't you're not behaving like we give you, you know, like they, they would

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: something for you, but then they would really want you to be very grateful. so all of those things were just piled on each other and, they were uncool. I think, more and more importantly, I think I was just, I, I quickly realized that that's not the environment I wanted to be in. That's. Of course, you're a child. You, you cannot articulate it. But I was like, yeah, this, no,

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: very clear. so there was a rebellious streak in me, which made it very clear that I'm not in this game. I tried to conform initially, whereas I, I kind of erased my Pakistani identity, but then I, when I still wasn't accepted, I was like, to hell with it, I, I might as well just be who I am, 

Jess: Mm-hmm. 

Aisha: I, went back to my dad.

So in a way, you know, in childhood trauma, like there's something called splitting

Jess: Mm-hmm. dad, good mom bad.

Aisha: You split up, split [00:42:00] situations. And people, are they good? Are they bad? Whereas when you get older, you understand it's a, it's a spectrum and everybody's good and everybody's bad and vice versa. But back then I was like, okay, not my mom's side, my dad's side,

Jess: Wow. Mm-hmm.

Aisha: uh, which is, which has its own sort of, um, as I later found out.

Jess: That's too much of a cliffhanger.

Aisha: so I, I, I,

think what I did in Nairobi was

I said, I am not a kni Muslim. That is just part of my identity and I didn't grow up on it. I'm passing through

so I don't owe any allegiance to it. So you can tame me, I can maybe get a passing grade, can get the hell outta here and never look back and go into a place where I once felt safe, which is everything that my dad wanted for me, you know, or whatever my dad's, you know, dad's sense of identity and political identity was.

So I'm heading back home,

Jess: [00:43:00] To Pakistan or to Uganda.

Aisha: to Pakistan.

Jess: And at that point when you were thinking this, you had never been to Pakistan yet or had you visited.

Aisha: I had visited a couple of times.

Jess: Okay. But you never lived there.

Well that this is all working out, um, swimmingly because it's like, you know, the questions that I didn't give you that I was gonna ask,

Aisha: Like I said,

Jess: did you read my mind?

Huh?

Aisha: We are vibing.

Jess: We're vibing. I like that. Vibing. Vibing. so Pakistan? you're in Nairobi. You're, um, thinking, okay, this is not working for me. This, this community.

I don't wanna stay here. I'm passing through, I wanna go move. Did you think of it as home to Pakistan?

Aisha: Yeah. For some reason, I dunno why I felt like. My dad would've wanted me to embrace an identity where I was rooted, you know,

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: forgetting that he actually left there [00:44:00] and went to Uganda, I was like, oops.

Jess: But at that point you were like, okay, I think he wants, I think he wants this. For me, you were having these conversations in your head with him

Aisha: Mm-hmm.

Jess: 'cause you're like, this is not working, dad. Like, what do I do? 

And you, and you're like.

Aisha: Where's home? It's in Pakistan.

Jess: Wow. So then,

Aisha: Not, not that clearly. Of course we are not talking voices, but we are talking, feeling lost and then being like, where do I go from here? You know,

and looking for home.

Jess: mm-hmm. how did you, how did you make it happen?

Aisha: So thankfully my brother, the one who was always making a tomboy out of me was in California. So I managed to get into San Jose State University. lived with him and my sister-in-law who. an equal part in raising me,

So from Nairobi, I moved to, uh, the US where my brother, um, and his wonderful wife hosted me, um, and let me [00:45:00] finish college and funded it. Um, I went to San Jose State University and studied media and business administration there. So while I was there, the other feeling that I had similarly was I'm passing through. Even

Jess: Hmm.

Aisha: US it was like I was very clear that this is not it. This is not home. This is me. You know, just taking a segue.

Jess: What, what about being in San Jose, which for the listeners, um, is in Northern California. Yeah. What about being there, um, made you know that that was another, like passing through place?

Aisha: Um, I think the family dynamics that, that definitely contributed because it was the same, it was the same sort of, uh, cultural guardrails, if you may, which is, I don't think talking about Pakistan was appreciated. know where it was like I had to sort of hide the fact that I'm the president of the Pakistan Students Association. All that [00:46:00] time in college in the US all I was doing was Pakistan. this, Pakistan that Pakistan concerts. Pakistan, you know, talks Pakistan, embassy, blah, blah, blah. I didn't really enjoy my college years because of that. Now that I think about it, if I go and renegotiate, I would be partying

Jess: If you could do a do over of college, you would be like more partying,

Aisha: mm-hmm.

Jess: less organizing. What did you call it? Organizing or what did you call it? Like 

Aisha: Political organizing, advocacy. activism. Yeah.

We did a lot of work to on campus and otherwise just, you know, bring diversity to the, to, to the co college campus. I was part of the governance body. Um, we did a lot of bringing Pakistani culture and Indian culture and other cultures to, to campus. and that really required politics.

So there was a lot of politics there. And of course, while I was busy doing classes and, and the other stuff as well. but the goal was, I couldn't go to Pakistan on my own, who am I gonna stay with? Although I had relatives, but then I needed a man, right? [00:47:00] So I had to engineer somebody, or at least look for somebody. That understood this entire, you know, phenomenon of looking for dad,

you know, without saying too much, but Got it. Somebody with, I mean, I, I think dad issues is a very simplistic form of taking something very complex and beautiful and then simplifying it or making it look dumbed down. But somebody who go, who had trauma, for lack of a better word, you know, 'cause people who walk through the world without trauma or to whom trauma has come late in their lives don't get it. So that's where I met my husband.

Jess: Yeah. Me cute. Tell us about the me cute please.

Aisha: It was, it was really a mute, cute, um, Yasser

Jess: Because it was cute, or why.

Aisha: he was so cute in his,

Jess: Aw.

Aisha: know, 20. He was 20. He was so cute. [00:48:00] First of all, he was this fire brand. You know, I, I first read what he wrote rather than met him. So we, I wrote this article on Kashmir, um, on a website called chalk.com, which was the first sort of internet of South Asians meeting online without, uh, a physical wall between them.

So they would intellectually debate Indian Park, science Bank about the issues, different forms, people. And so it was a very. Judgy and violent place because, you know, Pakistanis and Indians are really good at like slamming each other through words.

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Aisha: So, and then, but it was also a place where a lot of intellectuals came.

So a lot of the writers that you see in India, Pakistan today, uh, winners of, of major prizes and writing prizes came from chalk.com. 

Jess: That's where they honed their

Aisha: that's where they

hone their arguments on who's right in history and who's wrong. And you know, those interesting debates that really go nowhere and have no, have no reason for being.

But they are important because they talk about identity. [00:49:00] So I wrote this article on Kashmir, which is a disputed territory for those who don't know between India and Pakistan, and talking about self-determination and, um, self-identity and the importance of de democratic values. Yasser underneath that article said, Miss Sarwari, are you available?

Jess: Ah.

Oh my gosh.

Aisha: don't fault

Jess: This is how writers meet. Oh my gosh. This is too cute. I am so glad that I pumped the brakes on you when we were having coffee or when we were having tea to like, not tell me too much. Until we're recording, because this is too cute. This is too cute. And now you've gotten my reaction.

It's to shout. Oh my goodness.

Aisha: I

love how you're like, this is how writers 

Jess: yeah, 

Aisha: me.

Jess: side note. Um, Speaking of writers, I read the article, okay. We discussed how it makes sense for me to not read the book before [00:50:00] these conversations, because then that might limit my curiosity to things around the book.

but we agreed that I should read your article that you wrote, Staying alive. How Yassar La Hamani fought COVID to 19 and brain tumor to write Jenna's biography. and I just wanna say I was very moved. I was very inspired. I was like, what? When it was over? I, because I, 

My point is it was very beautifully written. I'm very, very, very looking forward to reading your book. and I can totally see why, your words, can make your husband message you because your words are beautiful. Okay? Not just beautiful, but they have a lot of like personality. Like, I just love, like, you have all those prose and then you have these like three word sentences and it's just like punchy, you know?

and I'm not like a literary critic, so I don't have like more words to describe how [00:51:00] your writing how much I really enjoyed and why I really enjoyed your writing, but I did. Um, but I'm just like, oh, so he, he fell in love with your writing first. This is damn cute. Okay.

Aisha: I I love your reaction. This is so good. This is what anybody ever writes for, actually, like, you know, I'm so glad

I, I kept 

at it 

dopamine. I'm going back right after this. I'm gonna like write a new article. So you, you are the antidote to my. Forever block. Next time I ever have a writer's block, just go back to this part and rewind,

Jess: Yeah. Yeah.

Aisha: this timeline.

Just keep playing it over and over again. thank you, Jess. Um, so yeah, he, he loved what I wrote. think he, me, we were two souls going through a world, you know, that was very subtly rejecting us and telling us to dumb our identity down or to play it down or to assimilate it. Like, so don't say you're from Pakistan.

Say you're from South Asia. You know, don't say, [00:52:00] um, you know, like when you're in a group, just become more communal, you know, play down. Just be like, no, no, no, I, I'm not one of those Pakistanis. Like, you know how like in feminism, they're like, no, no, I'm not one of those girls. Like, I'm not, I'm not like, I don't care

about feminism. So just like, you know, play it down. You'll have more friends, you'll do better. And he just wore on his sleeve. And I, I also did that so. I don't know, call me, But it felt like the, an answer to a prayer, you know,

Jess: Oh.

Aisha: I was just like, I don't care how old this guy is. And I took it a bit too seriously. I was like, yeah, I'm available and I'll marry you forever.

Jess: Is that what you thought? Please? Like, you didn't write that, you just thought that

Aisha: I thought that, and I was, I was, my curiosity was peak because everybody on the group were saying, oh, you two are so like and, um, you know, you, you're so idealistic. You deserve each other. Like, don't mess more people up.

Jess: what

Aisha: marry each other. You know? 

Jess: this is after you got together, [00:53:00] people were saying that, or before.

Aisha: before when I wrote the article, you know?

Jess: So other people saw 

Aisha: Mostly the the Indians, um, Indian

Jess: uh, uhhuh.

Aisha: um, you know, they were like, yeah, you deserve each other. which is what also prompted him to say, okay, this is such a great, great article. Like, are you available Ms. Sarwari? And also, no one called me, Ms. Sarwari before. I thought that was a power move, you know,

I am still stuck there. I'm like, wow, know, I wish he'd called me that again. So, so I kind of chased him down and because he disappeared after that and he was just writing his own article and went back, read everything he had written on the message boards, and he was this intense boy who knew so much.

Like Yasser is, um, you know, knows everything because he, he's smart. is got this. know, he synthesized knowledge really well. He knows everything about South Asia, so dates, names, you know, explanations, and very articulate. So that's a very lethal combination,

especially after someone says, miss to you. [00:54:00] so I chased him down. I was like, who's this guy? Um, and he was at Rutgers. I found out he was at Rutgers. Anyway, I mean, of course STALK is a very serious crime, but I, I, mine minor stalked him. And then I called the Pakistan Students Association President there because we had a network, all the university PSA. So I called him and I think it was this guy called for HA, or I don't know. And I was like, there's this guy Yasser, he wrote all three names. So I was like, this guy, like, why does he have to use all three? And I use all my three names mostly.

Jess: Uh,

Aisha: So that was another thing. And I was like, is can I speak to him?

Can I get his number? And the big joke at Rutgers was, oh, this girl from San Jose State is actually real. Like, and she's kind of looking for this loser, you know, this guy over here who like, and they're like, can you believe it? Like, she's chasing him from all the way there. Um,

Jess: remind me where Rutgers is. Where is Rutgers? Oh, whoa. Okay. This is coast to coast.

Aisha: Coast to coast.

Yeah. [00:55:00] so I think I, I emailed, they gave me his email and I emailed him and I said, you know, thank you for appreciating my article and blah, blah, blah. And he wrote back and then I said, okay, let's talk on the phone. So we spoke on the phone and I said, I'm going to, I'm gonna Pakistan and I have this project that I'm doing with Lums, which is a university there. And he said, interesting. I'm gonna go to Pakistan as well next week. So we were like, oh, let's try and meet up there. 

Jess: Wait, the timelines just happened to overlap for when you were gonna both be in Pakistan and were you gonna be in the same town?

Aisha: Yes.

Jess: What?

Aisha: And Lahore. And he's from Lahore. Yeah,

Jess: What? This is wild.

Aisha: yeah. See now everybody who's like, what was wrong with you? I'm like, no, this was serendipity. You know, like it was happening so magically. How could I not?

Jess: Wow. Yeah.

Aisha: no one, no one actually, um, wanted me by then. So,

Jess: You were, what year in college were you? How old were you?

Aisha: I think I was a sophomore. Yeah. I had two more years to go, whereas Yasser had one [00:56:00] more year to go.

Jess: Okay. Okay, Uhhuh,

Aisha: Yeah. So anyway, we meet in Lahore and he comes to my family friend's house to help me go to lumps to distribute some, um, it material that we were trying to distribute. and he comes in his car and then he's a boy, I'm like, okay, great. He's not like an old uncle. I was like, this, this could, this could work,

 Not only is he a boy, just he has these eyelashes that, you know, shadow entire cheek. They're thick and they're luscious. And they're windy and you know, he's like slowly like trying to fix his car door and, and he's blinking and I'm just looking at his eyelashes being like, oh my God. So

Jess: this guy is so cute.

Aisha: he was, and then when I sat in the car, there was a band at the time called une, a Pakistani band that had just come out and they played their song and it was just like, yeah, okay, this is it.

Um, I'm done.

Jess: Done. You're done. Movie moment, everything slows down. You like, remember the eye, [00:57:00] you remember exactly what he was doing and the music that was on. 'cause it was just like,

Aisha: yeah.

Jess: I mean, it was a very historical moment in your life. Yeah.

Aisha: my kids' life. And their

Jess: exactly. And like your, you know, family history. Like my husband and I like to call, well, I, I guess I like to call everything related to like a major moment in our relationship.

A historical event. You know, we're like, if we sat somewhere, like on our, like our courthouse wedding day, like we sat on like a certain bench and took photos, be like, that's every time we pass that bench later be like, that's the historic bench, you know?

Aisha: historic bench. Yeah,

Jess: Yeah. Pretty much. wow. So you did not meet in Subway, I thought in the article you met in Subway.

Aisha: So in the, um, so of course the Lahore meeting was extremely chaperoned, and sat, came inside at my, um, family, friends, and uncle's house, and everybody was sitting there just looking at him being like, okay. 

Jess: Uh, she hasn't even met this guy before. This is just their, you know, do they know it was your first meeting?

Aisha: Yeah. [00:58:00] Yeah.

So he just came into like, you know, if you come to pick somebody up, you, they, you get sized up about why you here, who are you,

Jess: Yeah.

Aisha: So they, they were just checking to see, and of course I had another friend of mine join us in the car to take that project onwards. So it was, you know, so all we talked about was Pakistan, and the first thing I told him was, I'm gonna go back to my country and make Pakistan an Islamic state, Islamic welfare state. And he just, he was just like, like you read, you need to read. You know, he was just like, this, this, he,

Jess: Not just write, but you also need to read.

Aisha: you need to read. Yeah. He was like, no, Jenna wanted a secular Pakistan. So then, anyway, that entire trip we talked about founding father and my dad's version of the founding father was basic, you know, if I may say it's the, the official version, which is that, oh, he created a state for Muslims, but were much more complicated.

And he was a very staunch secularist. And Pakistan [00:59:00] was not just some kind of. Big idea. It was created out of a lot of politics and, and difficult situations. So he explained that to me in that trip. Then when we went there, I was like, okay, you need to now come meet my brother in California, because I was like, okay, this is, let's go to the next level.

So in our, in our situation, second basis meeting the brother,

Jess: Wow, Uhhuh.

Aisha: met my, my mom and my family friends. Now you don't meet

the man And 

Jess: when you're coast to coast, you're riding, you're on the phone. You guys are like long distance dating.

Aisha: No, no, no, no.

Jess: No,

Aisha: point, it's just, purely, how do I say this? Like an intellectual date

Jess: it's like mine's meeting.

Aisha: minds meeting. Yeah.

Jess: Okay.

Aisha: but even then to bring some boy into your life at that age, there is this undertone about why, why, why are you interested? So everybody kind of is checking him out for other reasons as well.

Jess: Well, also, you liked him more than just his mind, right? Like you thought he was cute. You know, you [01:00:00] had this product where you were trying to engineer yourself, a husband to go back to Pakistan, and so, so in your mind you were thinking of it as more than that as well.

Aisha: Yeah.

I was like, look, I'll marry the first thing that comes in that cares about Jinnah and Pakistan, this guy has, is is my age. He's age appropriate

Jess: Uhhuh

Aisha: and he has great eyelashes. So like what else could one ask for?

Jess: ​

Thank you so much for listening, and I hope you enjoyed this episode, part four, the final chapter of my conversation with Aisha Drops in two Tuesdays. We dive into her journey of becoming a writer and public voice, the realities of her life in Pakistan, and how she found purpose and resilience through motherhood and advocacy.

She also shares how she eventually found her sense of home. Be sure to subscribe and follow or turn on [01:01:00] notifications so you don't miss it. You'll find links to connect with Aisha and her work in the description. 

If you liked this episode, share it with a friend. Word of mouth really helps us grow.

You can also support this independent podcast and keep these stories of representation coming by donating at the link in the description. 

Reviews are a big help as well. Thanks so much to Amy Yogi eight for taking the time and writing these encouraging words. I just listened to the Stephanee Clontz episode and as a new mom, I really enjoyed listening to how she balanced work, family, and personal interests. End.

Episode was produced and edited by me with advising and executive production support from Ruben Gnanaruban. I'm Jess Lin. See you soon. [01:02:00]