Hakim, Part 1 - Black American: Churches, Cookouts & Kickbacks

Hakim Asadi, a 35-year-old Black American therapist, reflects on his childhood, family, and community, exploring what it was like growing up between the inner city and suburbs. Host Jess Lin dives into his experiences in the church his grandparents founded, formative family moments, and the influences that shaped his curiosity, values, and identity.

This first half of a two-part conversation lays the foundation for Hakim’s journey: love, upbringing, and the people who helped him grow and “beat the statistics.” Part 2 continues with his exploration of his faith, queerness, and authenticity.

Connect with Hakim at HakimAsadi.com or hello@hakimasadi.com.

Watch on YouTube 

Topics: Black identity, family and community, inner city upbringing, faith and church life, Nation of Islam, recovery and service, Narcotics Anonymous, Alcoholics Anonymous, curiosity, therapy, belonging, authenticity, Cultureful podcast, Jess Lin, Hakim Asadi

Transcript

Transcript generated by AI and may contain errors.

Hakim: [00:00:00] I was with my friends and we got in trouble and whatever we did, I don't remember. I got suspended along with them, but I 

didn't. Second grade. I didn't do a lot though. I don't think I did anything in my mind. Obviously as a little second grader, it's like I'm innocent.

But I remember my grandmother sitting me down and talking to me about being a leader and not a follower.

 the conversation itself resonated with me in my second grade. in that, that mind, it resonated. oh, she's serious. Right? And so from then on, I knew I needed to be a leader, not a follower, right?

I needed to have voice in decision making And so I found myself in high school with people who would make dumb decisions, but I would still be like, oh, I'm not doing that.. 

Jess: You are listening to Cultureful. I'm your host, Jess Lin. Here's the first half of my conversation with my friend [00:01:00] Hakim Asadi. A 30 5-year-old black American therapist from upstate New York. Hakim grew up in the church. His grandparents started surrounded by leadership, family, in community, while also navigating the tensions of being queer 

 In this episode, he shares stories from his childhood, spending time with his grandmother and in church growing up in the inner city, and being raised to beat the statistics as a black boy. It's an intimate and thoughtful reflection on community, faith, family, and the courage to be your authentic self. His stories made me realize, the power of the most influential adults in our childhoods, the way they talk to us and what they see in us can truly shape how we see ourselves.

As always, you can watch the video version on YouTube. hope you enjoy Hi Hakim, welcome to the show.

Hakim: Thank you for having me.

Jess: It's [00:02:00] good to see you.

Hakim: It's good to see you as well.

Jess: thanks for supporting and being on the show. And I know you've been on other podcasts, but I think mostly those were related to like more professional topics, right?

Like being a therapist and,

 so I really, really, appreciate that you're here. And I'm also super excited for story time. 

Hakim: Yeah, I, I think it's, it's an aspect that I don't necessarily share all the time in this way. I think stories come out during therapy or these talks or public speaking. I might share an example of something that I, you know, something about my, about my life. But, uh, this is a little different. Like this is definitely personal and more vulnerable, I guess.

Jess: is that a thing that you're trying to do these days? Like trying to be more vulnerable in different spaces?

Hakim: In different spaces with close friends, not on a public platform.

Jess: Okay. Well, Yeah.

thanks for being here then.

Hakim: Yeah.

Jess: Extra thanks. Extra [00:03:00] thanks. 

so let's, get started.

 you know, set the scene for us, on community and family. So what was your community and family like when you were growing up? Yeah, let's just start there.

Hakim: Yeah, community and family. I, I would have to say are the foundations of who I am. my family, while it's not the biggest family, we're very close knit. it's interesting because I, I, without really, I don't think it's on purpose at all, but there's, the way we were raised, it's like three cousins are around the same age, so you automatically had like best friends that you grew up with because we would always be around each other Sundays for Sunday dinner, holidays.

And so I can easily identify my two cousins who are in my same age range because we grew up together. my sister has that, my other cousins, like, it's literally two or three other cousins around the same age. So it, it's really cool, because you never really felt alone.

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Hakim: [00:04:00] you never really felt alone outside of your own traumas, outside of your own things.

You always had like your cousins. And so that coupled with growing up in church, um, you had friends, even though, I mean, we can get into this a little bit later, but I think that's where I learned the value around community and how it can easily be the antidote to some of your issues or some of the challenges that you have.

Like, you can always look forward to going to church on Sunday and seeing a familiar face, getting a hug, getting a laugh. Like, you know, you always had something to look forward to in a shared experience. And so I, I think family and community are the cornerstones of who I am.

Jess: so what was your nuclear family like? So you have a sister.

Hakim: So yes, I have a sister, I have an older brother, I have a younger sister. Um, but she passed away and was a stillborn. And so that changed the, in the course of my life at nine years old. But, and I'm sure we can get into that [00:05:00] a little bit later as well, but I grew up with my sister in the household, um, and my mom, single mom, and my dad was in and out every once in a while.

but he had his own place and so I would stay with him sometimes, but that's the makeup of the family or my nuclear family and like how I was raised, other families kind of came and lived with us for a little bit. And so it was always, there were always people in the house for sure, but immediate family, it was my, my mom and my sister for sure.

Jess: And your brother was on your dad's side?

Hakim: Yes, my dad, my brother is much older than me. Um, we really started to develop a relationship probably within the last, six years or so. but before that, I would visit him. , When I was younger, I looked up to my older brother, like he was an artist. I remember he drew me this, I was really into Batman as a kid.

He drew me this large Batman drawing that he, I, I wanna say he hand drew by himself. And I cherished that. Like I [00:06:00] absolutely adored my older brother

Jess: pencil, paper? Was he like, what kind of mediums did he use?

Hakim: pencil, paper, sketch like that, you know, like shading and stuff 

like that? yeah, yeah. yeah. Things like that.

Jess: Very cool. Very cool. So you would spend time with him when you were hanging out with your dad?

Hakim: Yes.

Jess: what was your mom's vibe like in terms of. How did she parent? What were her expectations? Like what was the tone that she set at home?

Hakim: My mom, she was the, the auntie who, everyone, again, we always had somebody in the house. She was the auntie that took in everybody, um, sleepovers. My mom was the one who had the cookouts at the house. she threw the parties. We were the, the young little ones sneaking the wine coolers. Like we, we, she was just a lot of fun.

And I think much of my music is due to her, like, I love old school Disco, Chaka Khan, Patti LaBelle, I, Diana Ross. I owe that to [00:07:00] her. because she played music all throughout the house all the time.

Jess: So this might blow your mind, but I'm not sure what a cookout looks like. So like when you say she would like host cookouts, like. describe it to me. don't think I've ever been to a, I'm not sure if I've been to a cookout.

Hakim: that. It's hilarious,

but that essentially is like, Hey, we're throwing something on the grill, right? So

Jess: In the backyard, in the front,

Hakim: in the backyard, so we had the yard, we had a, um, an a above ground pool, which was like very unique in our neighborhood. So we were like the cool, the cool house on the block. Um, but we, she would just like basically put out a clearing call to the aunts and the, the other family members and other friends and, Hey, I'm throwing stuff on the grill.

you know, people would drink, bring coolers, the speakers, you know, the kids are in the pool, in the backyard on our bikes riding throughout the, the neighborhood. And so that's another thing I think I, I [00:08:00] value that. I don't know if we, if people, I guess knew that about me, but I really had a, a good childhood, like outside all the time.

I actually forgot how good I had it. Uh, I think I was like showing someone my scars. And just like bike riding accidents, you know, playing tag accidents, like, you know, just all over the place. But to go back to your original point, it would just be like a neighborhood thing. Like you just have the, the music going, you're, you're doing the grill.

So yeah, it's just a, it is like a neighborhood activity. Um, my mom again would just say, let's throw something on the grill. So you're, you're eating, you're eating. It's, it's fellowship over food, honestly. Like people are in the backyard. You got tables, you got car games, you got, you know, kids playing tag and bike riding, things like that.

So, yeah.

Jess: But when she would say, oh, she's throwing something on the grill, does that mean she's feeding everybody with meat or does everyone, is it like potluck

Hakim: Um, it can 

Jess: it like she's hosting

Hakim: if you're hosting, you're doing the majority of the cooking. [00:09:00] Right. So you're doing like the main dishes, but then other people you can, like if my aunt is known for her macaroni salad, we're asking her to bring that, or potato salad or, you know, baked beans or whatever. But the majority is like my mom or other people in the house would, you know, cook there.

Jess: And would there have to be like an occasion or is it just like, oh, we're just, it's just hanging out.

Hakim: no, that, I think that's the fun of it. It was the spontaneous, you know, Hey, it's a nice day outside, it's, you know, whatever, let's do it. There would be occasions, but a lot of times it was just, you know, spontaneous. It's beautiful outside. Let's do

something. 

Jess: today. Not even like, let's Oh, it's gonna be nice tomorrow. Let's do tomorrow. Like,

Hakim: It could be tomorrow, but if it's like today, no. Let's, it's, it's a nice day outside, like, and it, if no one's doing anything, they're coming over.

Jess: Whoa. That is so spontaneous and fun, Wow. yeah. I love that. that just sounds like the best time for a kid too, to be like, oh my [00:10:00] gosh, like so many people are coming over. Um, yeah. And just community and neighborhood and like for people to be close enough just to like up and come.

To have like so many people close by that you love and wanna hang out with you on a whatever day. 

Hakim: Not, not only that. I mean, now that I'm thinking about it, my mom could have planned it and I'm just not in the business, and so it felt like it was spontaneous.

Jess: so as a kid it just like 

happened. 

Hakim: Yes.

Jess: Right? Aw, um, I, I know that your grandparents started at church, Tell me about your grandparents 

and the story of how this church cost started.

Hakim: So my grandparents, I, I immediately smiled 'cause they just, I don't know, there's just so much love with them. And I never actually met my grandfather. My grandfather, passed away when my mom was like nine. so I just grew up learning and hearing great stories about him from everywhere. Not just family.

It could be other community members [00:11:00] and, and his legacy still lives on to this day. So, but to answer your question, they started a church in Schenectady, New York in 1955. Um, it started out, it's so funny that I remember this. It's, they started out. They started out in a garage. Um, and then they, you know, that packed out.

So then they got a smaller church then that packed out, and then they got a, a larger church, which is the church that still exists. They moved into that church, I wanna say in the seventies. Um, but it's still going. It's still operating. My aunt is the pastor now, but they moved from New Jersey and apparently, you know, I don't know why Schenectady was the location, I don't remember that part, but to start a church, and that's what they did.

They were always community oriented. they were always involved in church in some way, shape or form. my grandmother was an evangelist. I remember a story about my, [00:12:00] um, my grandmother, like becoming more involved in church. she was 18. My oldest aunt was two. My grandfather wasn't involved in church at all.

Um, but. Because she was so, um, eager, I guess, and excited and motivated. Uh, she brought my grandfather to church eventually and they both became devout Christians and, and really pioneers. Um, I would actually use the word maverick in the church because they were progressive in their own way. and so they started the church and it's still going.

It was really, honestly, for me, growing up in that environment, because they were mavericks and progressive, it was always centered around love and healing, which wasn't necessarily the case. Once I like left and visited other churches, it's like, oh, this is not a common, common thing, right? It's more other churches and other [00:13:00] experiences.

It's been really oppressive and it's been very dogmatic and it's been very rigid, whereas my, my family church. I always knew it was centered around love and healing because there were a lot of focus on, um, recovery for folks.

Right. 

Jess: addiction. 

Hakim: addiction. Yeah. So because it, it was in the family. Um, I, I don't know if that's how it happened.

I think just when I came onto the scene, this is like the correlations that I'm making. Like, oh, my aunt is in recovery. I'm seeing NA and AA meetings downstairs while we're having choir rehearsal and it's really a recovery church. 

Jess: nA stands for Narcotics Anonymous and AA stands for Alcoholics Anonymous

Global peer support programs that help people recovering from addiction. They began in the United States with a Christian influenced 12 step approach that originally emphasized [00:14:00] faith in God, honesty and accountability, but over time evolved to encourage each person to define a higher power in their own way.

 today both have spread to more than a hundred countries, offering community and shared support for people working toward recovery. 

Hakim: And so, um, I think that's what piqued my interest into getting into therapy is like seeing folks live one way in their life, completely changing based on their desires of wanting to be well.

Jess: do you know how your grandparents became progressive in Mavericks and how they, like, how that became their brand of Christianity?

Hakim: I don't know exactly. what I do know is they were just different, the stories that I heard, like my, my grandfather would take the youth and the young people bowling. That was unheard of. Or [00:15:00] pastor to take the kids bowling, um, go to the basketball court and play basketball with them. 

Like just to be down to earth and tangible, I guess.

that by itself was different, in their messaging and how they, they approached again, community. It was really centered around community and that love. And so my grandmother honestly did the same thing. I remember. Seeing her playing double Dutch with the girls at the church. 

Right. My grandmother has to have been 50, 60 years old at this time, but she's involved and engaged and it, it was different for people to experience that from a, a, a Christian leader.

Right. I think there are a lot of people who were put on pedestals, but my grandparents made sure they weren't on those pedestals respected. Yes. but also very much involved and engaged in the lives of people.

Jess: Okay. I'm fascinated by them. , Because just the idea of like, even going off to start your own church, [00:16:00] like, okay, so what do you know about their life before they started 

Hakim: Let's see what I remember. and the, it's funny 'cause I, the only reason why I remember this is because as a kid I was always absorbing and listening.

Jess: Yeah.

Hakim: My other cousins, they probably don't know half this stuff, but I was just always,

Jess: They're gonna listen to this and they're gonna be like, really?

Hakim: yeah, yeah. Literally. Um, ha. So I think my grandmother was a part of a bicycle. A motorcycle gang.

Um, I don't know much about that, but I remember seeing pictures and stories. 

Jess: All female motorcycle

Hakim: that part, I don't know. but she was a, a rebel, right? So she was, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was, uh, a all women's like, motorcycle gang, that would've translated well into how she operated in church.

So the church that we, the organization and the affiliation that we had, women [00:17:00] weren't the leaders, if you will. but my grandmother was a leader, right? She, she spoke up in the community and in church, and she pushed the envelope once my grandfather passed away to the point where she started her own, organization to help other women become leaders in church, 

Her and her, another

friend down in New Jersey. 

Jess: Do you know what the organization's called?

Hakim: I don't remember what it's called. and I don't know if it's still an operation, but I don't, I do know that she pushed the envelope in a way that in our community in upstate New York, there are women who are pastors and leaders, and they, they always, you know, say it was my grandmother, Dr.

Georgetta Dix, like, she's the one who, you know, helped me, or she's the one who trained me or talked me through this, or gave me a, a platform to actually speak or, you know, things like that. So. I would not be surprised if that was a all woman's motorcycle gang that

she was a part [00:18:00] of, because again, it would've translated so well the life she lived once she was the church.

Jess: And for our international listeners, like when you say motorcycle gang, you don't mean like a gang, you don't mean like a criminal gang. You mean like a club of people that go and motorcycle around because it's fun.

Hakim: yes. 

No criminal activity.

Jess: Yeah. and then your grandfather was brought, like your grandfather started going to church because your grandmother was really into it, and then he becomes a pastor, so he didn't, so like, how does one do that? Like, did he go to school or like to study how to become, or how does one just become a, you know what I mean?

Hakim: there were other church leaders in our family, like before them, right?

So this wasn't a foreign concept. This wasn't something that was new. Um, but I think they, they definitely took it and ran with it. So, to the point where my grandmother's [00:19:00] brother, uh, started a church in New Jersey, 

what year, I'm not really sure. But he was also a pastor. And so it just kind of like inspired other people to do, to do things that 

Jess: Wow. 

Hakim: to the church.

Jess: so I'm curious, like back, back to you, but still on the topic of church, I'm curious what a Sunday at church would look like when you would like.

Get up in the morning and just kind of take me through what all you would, you know, see, do who you would interact with, all of it.

Hakim: so as a kid, um, I, it's, this is so cool to go through. Actually,

I haven't done in while, um, my grandmother, she would listen to, she would have BET on, which is like the, the Black Television network station. Black Entertainment Television. and on there it would be a church service that she would watch as she's getting ready and as I'm getting ready, and then it would go into Dr.

Bobby [00:20:00] Jones gospel and Dr. Bobby Jones Gospel is essentially, music, right? So it's choirs, it's solo artists that would come and sing. And it's, um, probably for like an hour. And so that would be in the background as we're getting ready. So we're getting dressed. Um, there might be breakfast, maybe not, depending on what time we would go to the church.

And so with that, we would get to the church. Most likely there was Sunday school. And so Sunday school is essentially like your, um, classroom, your Bible study essentially for Sunday mornings. And so I would go to the kids group, my grandmother would go in with the adults. That I think would always be interesting looking back at it because I was the kid who always had questions.

If something didn't make sense, I'm gonna ask the question. And so I never really enjoyed Sunday school. I don't have a concrete answer for you, but I just never really like, uh, I'm excited to go. That was never the case for me.

it 

Jess: chore?

Hakim: felt like a [00:21:00] chore. It felt like a chore. One probably 'cause I was hungry because we didn't eat.

Jess: Uh.

Hakim: Um, probably 'cause I was hungry. And then I just like some of the teachers, um, you know, even in school, like you have some teachers that you just don't like, so then the subject matter is not like, interesting that

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Hakim: I think most of the case, that was the case 

Jess: That's how chemistry got ruined for me. I just didn't have a good chemistry teacher and then all downhill from there for chemistry, 

Hakim: Exactly. Yeah.

but then when you have a really good teacher, you're engaged, like you wanna learn the stuff. I a firm believer in that. So that was the case for Sunday school. But I do remember being an inquisitive kid, and I think that translates well to my adulthood, who now it's less about religion and more about spirituality and I'm always thinking and asking questions and now I give, I have the permission to go seeking.

Whereas before it wasn't that, right? It's this is what we're telling you, this is what is true. Even if you're like, [00:22:00] Hey, timeline of this doesn't make sense.

Jess: Uh, Uhhuh.

Hakim: So,

Jess: Oh. And then like poor, like, you know, like Sunday school teacher who probably is like volunteering, 

I imagine. And then this kid is asking all these questions that like, they don't know the answer to, and they're just like, oh, just like, oh, I'm trying to get through this lesson. Ah,

Hakim: Exactly.

Jess: I could actually totally imagine that because we met in a class, you know?

And like, I also asked a lot of questions and like, I thought, I think like a lot of the times they'd be like, I would ask a question. You would ask a question, I would ask a question, you, and then they'd be like, you know, the third person like Quinn would ask a question, you know?

Hakim: Mm-hmm.

But I, I think it's the questions that everyone else wants to know.

Jess: Uhhuh.

Hakim: So, um, but then we would go to church, right? So we'd have the service. Sometimes I would be engaged. So as a kid I was really involved. So I was singing, mostly singing as a kid, but I would be in the choir [00:23:00] doing something then after church.

church is also very long. So that would, that would be a thing. So you're, you're talking 11 to two o'clock maybe?

Jess: And then Sunday, like Sunday school started before 11,

Hakim: Yes. So Sunday school is like an hour and a half right? Before, church. 

Jess: you're talking like nine 30 to two.

Hakim: exactly.

Jess: Ooh, that is long. I think. I think also as a kid, when you're like in school Monday through Friday, like it's just hard to spend another day like in class basically.

Hakim: Yeah. So that think nine 30 to two and you're not going home right away. Right. So because my grandmother was a pastor, she has to talk to everyone. She

has to greet people, she has meetings and you know, things like that. And so I'm there all day. Right. And so then at night there's either an evening service or what we call YPWW, which is essentially Sunday [00:24:00] school at night, so

Exactly.

So we would eat, either we would go to a restaurant and eat, or we would have, um, sometimes Sunday dinner there. So we actually ordered out a lot, because we wouldn't leave, we'd just be there all day. And so I was used to that on a Sunday as a kid.

Jess: And Sunday dinner would be like, not at like evening time. It would be like late, like afternoon. It'd be like after two. Between two and like the next thing.

Hakim: So like four-ish, five-ish. Um, and then it would be, there would, there would be like times where we wouldn't go. So we'd have dinner at my grandmother's house and some of the family would come over, or I would go to my aunt's house, and, you know, spend time with my cousins and then come back to church.

I, so I didn't always stay at the church all the time. I would either go to a restaurant or go to someone else's house, but I would always end up back at church

Jess: Until what time?

Hakim: probably 8 30, 9 o'clock.[00:25:00] 

Jess: Wow. Whew. That is a long day 

for not just a kid, for anybody. Oh my gosh. Like that's a 12 hour at church 

day. 

Hakim: You're not, I never really thought about it that way, but yes.

Jess: Oh my gosh. Um, yeah. So would your mom be at church with you too?

Hakim: So, no, that was an interesting thing. My mom didn't really get involved in the church until my grandmother passed away. And so I had this duality of at home listening to Diana Ross and then at my grandmother's house on the weekends, so I can go to church. Um, we're listening to gospel music, Shirley Caesar.

Jess:  Did you want to go to church? Was it like a choice or was it like an expectation?

Hakim: It, it was both, honestly. I wanted to go for a long time. Like I enjoyed church. It was the community. It was fun. I enjoyed singing. Um, I think it was where I was, I was able to feel seen and like my creative self [00:26:00] because I was a singer, right? So I would either be singing in the choir, but I was also like the lead singer in the choir, in the youth choir.

And then, once I got of age, I would be leading Praise and Worship, which is like a segment to open up the service. And so I felt like there was, my involvement was a lot of fun. My engagement was a lot of fun. and it gave me like a sense of purpose. And so there was that, yes, I wanted to be there, but I think there was also this expectation for me to be different from others.

And that was a way for me to, I guess, find purpose. I'm not really sure what my grandmother's intention was, but it worked. Um, honestly, like I'm different from other family members, other people I grew up with. Like I just had a different focus.

Jess: When you say, you know, you were expected to be different from others, like different how, like to Excel because you were 

Hakim: Yeah. 

Jess: part of like the founding family.

Hakim: to, to excel, not [00:27:00] necessarily different from the kids in the church that Yes, but also like to beat the statistics. Right to beat the statistics of being a young black boy in the inner city. And we don't want you selling drugs. Like, we don't want you to think that that's what you have to do. and so it gave me a different sense of focus and purpose to really seek out who am I, what do I want to do?

I have a talent, like this is fun. I'm getting, recognized for this. yeah. So it just gave me a different outlet or it, it, it gave me exposure to something different.

Jess: So when you went to church, you would be staying with your grandma, like you would go Saturday night 

sleepover and stay until Sunday night. Your mom would pick you up or something.

Hakim: So it would be like Friday after school kind of thing. 'cause I was really close to my grandmother. and so I would always, I would be there on the weekends and that was literally all the time, um, even [00:28:00] into my, I was, I was 14 when she passed away. Well into like a teenager, like 14.

Jess: Okay. So the whole weekend with grandma,

Hakim: Essentially,

Jess:  what would you do? on Saturday with grandma church?

Hakim: so I mean she would either be home, so I had friends that in her area, so I'd be playing with them or be outside or meet up with other cousins. And so it wasn't like I was confined to her house. it would still be like my regular childhood. She just lived in a different neighborhood, so I would figure out how to get there.

I had a bike, so I would either, back then you could ride, well, I don't know if my mom knew this, but I would ride all over the city, so I was, I could easily get to my cousin's house or other friend's house. So on Saturday it would be either be that or I would go with her to get her nails done, or her hair done or something like to go to the grocery store, things like 

that. 

Jess: out. 

Hakim: Yeah, I was just hanging out with my grandmother.

Jess: After the break, Hakim shares a pivotal moment with his [00:29:00] grandmother and the story behind his name. 

so outside of church, we kind of talked a little bit about like your family's community, but like outside of that, you know, you're talking about inner city, like what was the neighborhood that you grew up in, like

Hakim: Yeah, so the neighborhood I grew up in, it is called Hamilton Hill. It was the hood essentially. I used to be a professor and we were in. Intro to social work. And so one of the modules was like living in poverty, right? And so someone said, and a student said, like, you know, growing up I just had my needs met, and it was really fun.

I didn't know I [00:30:00] grew up in poverty until I got out of poverty. And when they said that, it resonated with me because I didn't know that it was like the hood. I just had a lot of fun, right? So I, I was a kid living my life, right? But it wasn't until I lived or moved out and on my own and into the suburbs, and I was just like, oh yeah, the lifestyle was different, right?

The, the, the community was different. I knew my neighbors. I had fun with my neighbors. Moving into the suburbs, I didn't talk to anybody. I didn't have to talk to anyone. I used to, in that class, I used to talk about how it was very different because if I wanted a snack, I could go down to the, the local bodega or the, the corner store.

Living in the suburbs, I have to drive to Walmart to get something right. And I can't just get a single little Debbie's cake. I have to buy the box. it was a difference in essentially lifestyle, which it's not a bad thing, but I think a lot of people, judge the inner city or judge, [00:31:00] folks who are living in poverty, but the value system and the value structure that is produced in living in that, in that survival, um, it's honestly unmatched.

Like at, at just, I really, again understood the sense of community because I'm thinking of the neighborhood that the house that I was in, I could look over and know, like I remember that, the woman's name, right. I remember. Going down the block. And in this yellow house, this is so funny. Doing this, this yellow house.

I remember the kids that grew up there, right? And how they had, uh, baby squirrels. Like I remember that.

Jess: do you mean? They had baby squirrels?

Hakim: It's really a random fact. But they had, like, they were, 

they had baby squirrels as pets,

Jess: whoa,

Hakim: right? So I remember that just like riding my bike and seeing them play with squirrels. And now me and my cousins are talking to them and having fun [00:32:00] and

like, we didn't play with the baby squirrels 'cause we were, my mom wouldn't have that.

But it was just something very interesting. And going around the corner, you know, you had the guy who would fix bikes. Like it was just very centered around community and growing up out of that, living out of that, it was very different resources. And the connections were very different.

Jess:  I completely agree. you said it really well. I think a lot of times people do. Look down on, people from certain communities because of, this or that, preconception. And sometimes it's not even like because of money.

Sometimes it's 'cause of region, sometimes because of, you know, language, culture, whatever. And I just, a lot of those biases like aren't true. And people also think like, oh, it's so sad, this or that, or whatever. And it's just like this kind of saviorism and, and that's also not helpful, you know?

So I really do think, like from a lot of my living abroad and like [00:33:00] things I've seen with my own family or wherever, just you know, the ingredients to like having a happy life are not necessarily tied to like material wealth. and, you know, sense of community, sense of identity, sense of belonging, sense of place.

Like a lot of that isn't necessarily tied and sometimes it's reverse, you know, sometimes. Yeah. I don't know. I grew up in the suburbs. I a super hard time because there is very little sense of community in like a lot of suburbs. yeah. So at what point did you move to the suburbs?

Hakim: So my grandmother, oh, for me, when, again, when I came onto the scene, she always had a house in the suburbs. Um, so again, that duality, right? That just like I'm going home. Into the inner city, into the hood, and then on the weekends, I'm, you know, living it up with my grandmother in my mind as a kid. but that was the experience.

But when I moved on my own, I would say I [00:34:00] was 25.

and I made the decision to move on the outskirts because I didn't, while I loved family, I still wanted to be for far enough that someone wasn't just popping up at my house. Um, but it, it was really, it's really interesting because I would be the one to host family, right?

I would be the one to like, Hey, I'm having a, a little get together of friends, whatever. Um, and a kickback as we would call it. And they would come, they would come to my house. So, but yeah, I, wanted to be, far enough, to have my own experiences and to live the life that I wanted to live with the appetite, satisfying the appetite that I had for life.

Jess: Uh, you know, I must ask, what does a kickback look like?

Hakim: So a kick, honestly, a kickback. You, you hosted one for Quinn. A a kickback

Is just like it, you could identify it as a

kickback. A kickback is just [00:35:00] like, you know, people coming over, you got snacks, refreshments, drinks, and games. If you wanna have like, entertainment Yeah. That's, that's a kickback.

Jess: Okay. So it's, it's not like grilling, it's not as much super, like this is a meal food. It's more snacky and hang outy. Okay. Okay. So it's a little bit less of like the food pressure.

Hakim: right. 

Jess: Okay. I see. 

Hakim: Yeah. 

Jess: I I hosted a 

kickback.

Hakim: you did, you know, you, you still make your, like dips, like, you know, buffalo chicken dip or, you know, that type of like pasta salad, things like that. Not, you know, steak on the grill or 

burgers on the grill, or, you know, things like that.

Jess: I see, I see. so going back to the, the duality of your life as a kid, looking back, did you do much like code switching between, 

Hakim: Absolutely. I think I had to do and learn a lot of code switching because growing up in the inner city, I also went to Catholic school my entire life, [00:36:00] my entire academic career. Um, there was like maybe two years where I went to public school. Um, but even that, I felt, I felt out of place in the public schools because I wasn't, I wasn't used to it.

Had a great time, had a great time, but it was very different. So, code switching for sure, because going into Catholic school, it's, I was the only black kid in the class.

Jess: Whoa.

Hakim: Like, again, entire, even in the college, college, not so much. Right. But, elementary school, middle school. Middle school was the one, I did the two years in public school, but then eighth grade I went right back to Catholic school and I was probably in my class, maybe two or three of us, maybe four and four is like, that's, oh, this is a very diverse class,

Jess: Oh my gosh. A class of like, how many kids

Hakim: [00:37:00] 30, 25.

Jess: what did the code switching look like?

Hakim: it's interesting because I don't know if I can identify it or put words to it, but you know. Where you are, you know, your environments, you know how to switch it up, right? So it'd be interesting because it could be a group of, you know, my peers who are black, we're having a conversation and then turn around and I would have another conversation with somebody else who's not black and it would just come natural, right?

I think growing up code switching is something that you learn as a child, right? And so I think it's a lot of connection to oppression and white supremacy and how, what's like deemed as the right way. you learn that as a kid. And so now I think a part of that undoing or unlearning is challenging that, right?

But I think people learn it automatically.

Jess: [00:38:00] that's interesting 'cause I was, I was thinking, I mean, when I asked the question originally, I was thinking like code switching between the two communities. Like, you know, where your mom lived in the inner city and then where your grandma lived in the suburbs and with the urban crowd versus like the suburban church crowd.

It, if there was any code-switching there. But then the, it was interesting that your, your mind went to like, you know, when you would code-switch between which race you were talking to.

Hakim: Yeah. 'cause I don't think I, I don't think I had to code switch in that same way.

Jess: Mm.

Hakim: the same people in the church, same neighborhood. Right. So that wasn't necessarily a code switch. If anything, I would probably maybe more so like spirituality and talking about Jesus

and God, and you know, the spirituality aspect of things. But I don't think I had the code switch at all. I think we would still, kick it like we still talk, you know, the regular way because I didn't need to switch, switch for survival.

I didn't need to switch, [00:39:00] to make someone else feel comfortable. We were comfortable regardless.

Jess: Mm. okay, so your grandmother lived in the suburbs, but the crowd that went to her church was from the same neighborhood that you grew up

in. 

Hakim: the, the, the church was in the neighborhood I grew up in.

Jess: Oh. So, but she just lived in the suburbs, so she would come back. Oh, okay. Okay.

Hakim: Yeah. 

Jess: I'm, I'm starting to see it now. 

Yeah. 

Hakim: it.

Jess: and when they would talk about wanting to raise you to beat the statistics, I guess like what was it like for you? I mean, how did you experience that? if you can be like more specific.

Hakim: Yeah. Um, I remember in second grade, also a short stint of public school. 

Um, I was with my friends and we got in trouble and whatever we did, I don't remember. I got suspended along with them, but I 

didn't. Second grade. I didn't do a lot though. I don't think I did anything in my mind. Obviously as a little second grader, it's like I'm innocent.

But [00:40:00] I remember my grandmother sitting me down and talking to me about being a leader and not a follower.

Jess: whoa.

Hakim:  the conversation itself resonated with me in my second grade. I don't know how old I was, but in that, that mind, it resonated. Oh, this, oh, she's serious. Right? And so from then on, I knew I needed to be a leader, not a follower, right?

I needed to have voice in decision making from like second grade on. And so I found myself in high school with people who would make dumb decisions, but I would still be like, oh, I'm not doing that.

Jess: Mm-hmm.

Hakim: Oh, I'm not going there unless I wanted to. Right? And that was me. Having agency over my decision making, and it was from second grade that my grandmother sat me down and said, you are a leader.

You're not a follower.

Jess: Wow. just this really impresses me on like multiple levels. [00:41:00] Like impresses me that she was having this kind of conversation with a second year old. It also is like, wow, this, not only did you remember and understand, but also you internalized that you took that with you as you continued and you know, and just like the, I'm just like, wow, we really do need to be really careful how we talk to like even little kids.

Hakim: Yeah,

Jess: sounds like that really shaped you. 

Hakim: definitely because I was definitely a follower. Like I was definitely, I was definitely following my friends and even though we all got suspended, she's just like, you are not your, you're, you're a leader. Right. We, we don't do that. You know, you have agency over your own thoughts and decisions. I mean, she didn't say all that then, but I would say that to my nieces and nephews now.

Jess: I love the framing of it where it's not like, you need to do this or you should do this, or whatever. It's like, that's not who you are.

Hakim: Right,

Jess: Whoa. 

Hakim: And I think that's why it resonated [00:42:00] because I always, again, a kid that was in the class that was like, this doesn't make sense. I always had a sense of more in life.

Jess: Hmm,

Hakim: Right. There's always some would say it was like too ambitious, but it just, that resonated with me because I knew I was a leader.

Right. I just needed that spark that, that, I guess the, the spark to. Really learn and know that, and because I respected my grandmother so much, her words had so much weight,

so much weight, 

Jess:  I mean, just such a beautiful way to interact with your grandkid, but also it does sound like a super powerful moment, for you to hear that from someone you respected so much and for her to like see you and tell you like, this is how she's seeing you.

Hakim: you know?

Jess: Um, oh, it's so beautiful. 

 do you know the story behind being named Hakim? Because, I don't know if I know any other Christian Hakim.

Hakim's from a Christian family. 

Hakim: so [00:43:00] Hakim Asadi are actually my middle names.

Jess: Hmm

Hakim:  my dad and I share the same first names. but my dad was in prison and he was, uh, converting to the Nation of Islam. 

Jess: The Nation of Islam is a religious movement founded in 1930 in Detroit for Black Americans. It blends Islamic teachings with black nationalist ideas, emphasizing self-reliance, pride, and education, and has historically promoted racial separation as a form of empowerment.

Famous members like Malcolm X and Muhammad Ali brought national attention to the movement. Its teachings and separatist stance, sometimes clashed with the integration focused civil rights movement led by Martin Luther King Jr. The Nation of Islam, is also known for its community programs, educational initiatives, and prison outreach.

Hakim: And a part of that [00:44:00] process is you look into the book of names and you pick out names of who you're becoming, right as you are changing, as you're transforming.

And so he chose Hakim, sdi, Hakim, uh, means the insightful one, the one who's wise, and then Asadi 

Jess: Wow. 

Hakim: Lion, right? So my dad is a Leo, and he is a Leo, right? So he chose, he chose Lion. So I interpret that as courage, honestly. And so Hakim, Assad are my middle names. Who, or I I now go by them because I think they're, they're connected to my authenticity, right?

Uh, having a conversation with my dad maybe a couple years ago, and he was like, I chose those names for myself, but also you, but you are really living out your name.

Jess: Chills. That gives me the chills. So many beautiful moments with family. Oh my gosh. Your family. Just like says just these like, oh my gosh. [00:45:00] Okay. I'm glad I asked. That was so beautiful.  okay.

 Let's take a break.

Hakim: Okay. 

Jess: Thanks so much for listening. In part two, Hakim shares more about his journey as a queer person coming out, the experiences that shaped him along the way and what he's up to now. You can also find ways to connect with Hakim in the show notes. The next episode comes in two Tuesdays. Be sure to subscribe or follow and turn on notifications so you don't miss it. If you enjoyed this episode, you can support this homegrown indie podcast by leaving me a comment or donating via the link in the description. Your support helps keep these stories of representation coming. Stories that don't reduce our experiences to stereotypes 

 but bring nuance in our everyday narratives to the forefront. This episode was produced and edited by me [00:46:00] with advising and executive production support from Ruben Gnanaruban. I'm Jess Lin. See you soon.