Episode 8: Autism Representation in the Media

Welcome back! On this week's episode of the Madcast, Hosts El, Nate, and lyn are discussing the good, the bad, and the ugly of autism representation in the media. Join us as we discuss Autistic-coded characters well-known Autistic-coded characters (Sheldon Cooper of The Big Bang Theory, Spock of the Star Trek franchise, Abed Nadir from Community), controversial yet confirmed Autistic characters (Rain man of Rain Man, Dr. Shaun Murphy of The Good Doctor, Music of Sia's Music), common archetypes (the autistic savant, the robot/alien, the child/infantilized individual), and so much more! 

This topic is incredibly rich and incredibly close to us, so we hope you'll join us on this fascinating week of The Madcast!

See transcript here.

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Thank you all and enjoy the show!!

Credits:
Hosts: Nate Tilton and Eliana Madera
Producer: Nate Tilton and Eliana Madera
Production Assistance: Trisha Nguyen
Executive Producer: Karen Nakamura, PhD

Produced at UC Berkeley Disability Lab (or Rad Mad Lab)

Recorded at Ethnic Studies Changemaker Podcast, UC Berkeley

Copyright © 2023 by Nate Tilton, Eliana Madera, & Trisha Nguyen

License: CC-by-SA
Licenses List | Creative Commons

Transcript

Podcast Transcript: Autism Representation in the Media

00:00:00 El: Hello, listeners. Welcome to the Madcast, where we delve into the intersections of academia, disability, and culture. We're hosted by the UC Disability Lab at Berkeley, and we are currently recording in the... Ethnic Studies Changemaker Podcast Studio, which rests on Ohlone Land. I'm El, and today I'm joined by evelyn and Nate. 

00:00:31 evelyn: Hello.

00:00:32 Nate: Hey, y'all. Hope everyone's having a good day. 

00:00:35 El: Yeah, as you can tell, I'm having a bit of a brain fog day, but, it happens, it happens. Today we're gonna talk about representation in the media, specifically for autism. We're gonna be looking at general trends and stereotypes and then we're gonna be bringing up examples. We've seen that strike our fancy to talk about. But yeah, if y'all would like to, delve a little bit. Into your specific relationship with autism if you're comfortable doing so. Go ahead and, bring it up or not or we'll see. Yeah. 

00:01:18 evelyn: Yes, hello. I am probably autistic, kind of confirmed unofficially by two medical professionals, not officially diagnosed because that is a difficult thing to acquire, but yes, autistic, have a lot of autistic friends. 

00:01:34 El: I definitely very much relate with the probably confirmed by both family and various professionals, but getting a diagnosis, especially as an adult, is near impossible, and believe me, I've tried. Same. It's also incredibly expensive. Yeah. We'll, we'll delve into that maybe a little bit later, but ... Nate, do you have anything? 

00:01:56 Nate: Yeah, I mean, you're talking at least a few thousand dollars for a diagnosis. 

00:02:00 El: Oh, yeah. 

00:02:01 Nate: It's ridiculous, the amount of … privilege required to get it like a little one because a lot of providers that do diagnose don't take insurance. So a lot of time you have to pay out of pocket. It's like for folks, especially in college or living on fixed income. How are you supposed to seek out a diagnosis when,what it may cost you more than like a quarter of your year's salary or the income that you bring in? Yeah. Right. For myself, my oldest son is diagnosed autistic, which is one reason why I know how much it costs because I had to pay out of pocket despite having access to insurance. It's – I still had to pay out of pocket and fortunately she was really cool.

00:02:47 El: Nice. 

00:02:48 Nate: Myself, I went undiagnosed, the majority of my childhood and, and even into adulthood. It wasn't really until I started seeking out a diagnosis for my oldest son that I really... Felt that I should explore this relationship for myself and what that really meant. So, I, I, like, I like to say that I am diagnosed but then also unofficially diagnosed because I never went to see that super expensive person for myself. Yeah. But, I've had providers tell me that I am. Right? And so it becomes one of those things where it's like, “oh yeah, you are”, but then at the same time, but you're not, right? That's also the importance, I feel, of being able to self-identify as well, right? Because there's only so much I feel that the medical model in this case, right, can do with this because they're just like, what is it? Like, oh, they're going to give you a bunch of tests. And if it's a school system, they're going to be like, they're going to send an observer to observe you for what, maybe a day or two or something like that. But because they're supposed to capture that snapshot of you as an autistic individual – or whatever they suspect you of being. 

00:04:01 El: They're also looking for you causing problems, you misbehaving, because that's usually how it's identified. I mean, when I was a kid, like, no one said anything because I was a very, very good student. I was very, very studious. I was very, very rule-following. Which is hilarious because, that's a part of the, trend and criteria and such. But like now, whereas I had some friends who had like ADHD or something. They would cause – quote unquote “cause issues”. It's more of like they, like they had dyslexia and they were mocked by teachers or they were having trouble paying attention and so they were diagnosed because they were causing issues in the school system. Yeah, that's unfortunately how it gets identified a lot of the times.yeah, it's, yeah, it's unfortunate. And I will say also as an adult, trying to get diagnosed, it's pretty hard because it's seen as like a childhood diagnosis, very much so. And it's even harder for someone who is non-white, not male, to get a diagnosis because the original... studying of autism, by the awful, awful Nazi man that we will not name, or... 

00:05:19 evelyn: We could. The term still gets used. 

00:05:21 El: Yeah, Hans Asperger's, it, certain people in the community still identify as it because it was their original diagnosis, but generally it's… rejected as a community-wide or active, diagnostic label, or even identity that's active. But no, a lot of his work was done on, white autistic little boys to the point where, like, when it was first conceptualized, they didn't even think... Women could get or girls could have autism at all and that, that trend very much persists today. It's like a four to one ratio, I think. Of little boys diagnosed versus little girls diagnosed, so that's, that's my little tangent as a AFAB person who was very high masking. And so, no one saw anything or suspected anything despite my various difficulties over the years. It was very exhausting.

00:06:28 Nate: El or evelyn, you want to expand on masking and maybe like what your experiences were masking, like what it is for our listeners who may not know? Maybe they're masking themselves and don't realize it. 

00:06:40 El: Yeah, sure. Do you want to explain or do you want me t–? 

00:06:42: evelyn: Sure, I can go a little bit into that. So masking essentially is a term widely used in a lot of just neurodivergent, for a lot of neurodivergent identities. Although I'm not certain it could be more expensive than that, it specifically refers to just pretending to be neurotypical, masking. Covering up your own neurodivergent traits and behaviors in an attempt to fit in and conform to the quote-unquote “normal” neurotype. 

00:07:08 El: Yeah, and technically every individual masks to a certain extent. What distinguishes that general experience of like, “everyone slightly changes themselves to fit in”. What distinguishes that between masking for neurodivergent folk, especially like autistic folk, is the degree to which you have to cover up traits and the degree to which you have to change yourself and the extent of that… of the energy needed to do that. So, like, for instance, someone might, slightly alter their personality or, change the language they use in a certain context. An autistic person or a neurodivergent person might... completely script out the whole thing, or they might constantly pay attention to their facial expressions and every single word that they're saying and then micro… like, dissect every single part of that social interaction. And if you meet them unmasked, perhaps, if you even do, you're talking to a completely different person. 

00:08:10 evelyn: Yes, eye contact is one of the big ones. 

00:08:13 El: Eye contact.

00:08:14: evelyn: Yes, I run into this problem a lot of times. It is, I can either look you in the eyes or I can actually listen to what you are saying. 

00:08:21 El: Yeah, that's actually really common. Whereas a lot of time folks think that if you are looking someone in the eye, you are listening, but for a lot of neurodivergent folk, that isn't the case, and there are some tricks that neurodivergent folks commonly do like looking at an earring or looking at a nose or looking at the lips. Yeah, appearing as though you are looking and making eye contact. So that's one of the things. I will say, I brought up facial expressions because I actually have a little funny anecdote before, we switch gears and talk about representation, but, I feel like it's probably good to…

00:08:55 evelyn: Little anecdotes. 

00:08:56 El: Little anecdotes, understanding autism and also our relationships to it. I actually taught myself how to make proper facial expressions because I, a lot of times, I was seen as having resting bitch face and I looked pissed all the time or super professional studious as like an eight year old or whatever. And people thought I was being bossy or being mad at them. And so from the cartoons and anime I watched, I mimicked the facial expressions, like, to the point where, like, when I was talking to someone, I would picture it in my head. And because of that, my facial expressions now, because I train myself to do them more naturally, they're very animated and they're very, very exaggerated. And that's actually pretty common for people who are high masking, exaggerated facial expressions and such. 

00:09:49 evelyn: Certainly relate to that a lot just coming from the background of being a undiagnosed neurodivergent child and especially – this will tie into the topic of the episode – just looking at media, especially visual media, and observing and learning social scripts and behaviors, learning how to … And this certainly ties into kind of ending up as a theater kid and learning how to act. Because masking is a kind of specific form of acting that causes a lot of distress.

00:10:15 Nate: Did y'all, did y'all ever look in the mirror and make faces? 

00:10:19 El: Yes. 

00:10:20 Nate: And just like study your face when you make these expressions? 

00:10:26 El: Like, I definitely did that. Yeah. 

00:10:28 evelyn: I think talking was a bigger thing. I think vocally is a bigger part for just us in the system for a lot of reasons. Not just autism, but also, being trans. 

00:10:40 El: Yeah, no, definitely. That makes sense. No, but yeah, I do relate to the mirror thing. I used to do that all the time as a kid. Just, just see... How my face was actually responding to certain things because I did not understand why everyone thought I was mad at them. 

00:10:58 Nate: Yeah, I've noticed it was like, they always tell you like, why don't you smile more? Why don't you do this more? So it's like now when I smile, my smile is very exaggerated. Like, so I show teeth, right? Because before I wouldn't show teeth because it's just meh. I didn't really care to. It didn't make sense. I don't know. I just didn't do it. Yeah. But now it's like I've trained myself to do it. Yeah. Right.

00:11:20 El: And if you add on, like, gendered expectations, I mean, growing up AFAB, it's very much like, “you'd look so much prettier if you smiled!”

00:11:28 evelyn: “Give me a smile, please”. They would not say please. 

00:11:31 El: Oh, they would not. But yeah, no, that was definitely a big part. So now let's go ahead and switch gears and talk about some common tropes seen in autism representation. Let's start off with what is commonly known as the savant type. The socially inept savant type. And when I think of the savant, actually, before I get into this specific example, the savant stereotype is essentially, an autistic person who has, may have some learning difficulties or may seem like socially unaware. But has one particular skill that they're really, really good at like almost genius level in this one specific area. The media thing that comes to mind for me is Rain Man. 

00:12:22 Nate: Yeah, that's what I was thinking when you were talking about it. 

00:12:24 El: Yeah, genius at math, but like oh, gosh. I don't even know where to begin. Does anyone want to take it away? 

00:12:33 evelyn: I believe Rain Man did kind of set the cultural template, so to speak, for the autistic savant. 

00:12:39 Nate & El: Oh, yeah. For sure. 

00:12:41 evelyn: I think Sherlock kind of comes to mind, although that is not explicitly confirmed. It is kind of, it falls into the trope. 

00:12:48 Nate: It's coded now, yeah.

00:12:50 evelyn: No, it is, the socially inept part falls on the spectrum of being, “oh, you're just being a little silly goofy and fumbling through social interactions” to being a jerk and to being just inconsiderate. No, there is a lot of things going on. 

00:13:05 El: Yeah, there's also a conflation of, of, social, quote unquote social ineptness with aggression and violence. That is actually pretty common. So, yeah, it's actually really interesting you bring up, either being quirky and cute and almost like a child to... being a jerk, aggressive, violent those are like the two very common, aspects of what it, what autistic people are typically conceptualized as. And we'll go into that a little bit later with like…

00:13:38 evelyn: Infantilization. 

00:13:39 El: Infantilization and... 

00:13:40 evelyn: Manic Pixie Dream Girl. 

00:13:42 El: Oh, yeah, but like, we'll touch on that later, but like, for right now, focusing on the savant, it's actually really interesting, seeing how much... that it's, seeing how much it's used as inspiration porn. Yes. Almost very much, as something to aspire to be or you only have value if you're an incredible genius in this one arena. You might have your faults and you may, be mostly worthless, but this one thing you're really good at? It makes up for everything. So inspirational. So lovely. And this can obviously tie into like capitalism and worth and, your ability to conform to this. Anyone want to speak on that? 

00:14:31 evelyn: Oh, you go, Nate.

00:14:32 Nate: Oh, I was just going to say, like, you were talking about worth, right? I mean, that ties back to Asperger, right? Because, Asperger would literally choose, who was worthy to live and who died, right? Who had worth and who was bringing worth to, the German Third Reich. Right. And, and the other side, like, oh, nope, sorry, you're, you're not gonna make the cut essentially. Right. And they'd be sent to, with the rest of the disabled folks into the concentration camps. And, so it, in a lot of ways, we're tied back to the worthiness and what's our value, right? And what we can contribute to society. And in this in case with Rain Man, right? It wasn't until, I can't remember what Dustin Hoffman's character's name other than Rain Man was… Raymond, yes, it was Raymond, right, because Rain Man was Raymond. That's what Tom, because Tom Cruise was a baby or a young child when he was institutionalized, when Raymond was institutionalized. And so... he didn't really make that connection with Raymond until he saw his value in math, right, in counting cards. And that's when he's like, oh, okay, now that's when he made the connection. That's when he... somehow earned his humanity, right? To, to be seen. Otherwise he would have just been back and institutionalized, which circling around again, with Prop 1 that. Honestly, I'm not sure where it's at. I've heard it's passed. I heard it's not passed. And it's really sad because, we're bringing back forced hospitalization, right? And so it's really... It's really sad, I feel, because I feel we're moving backwards in that way. And it's, we always talk about it's going to be, the conservatives or the right wings folks are the ones that are going to be moving us backwards. And yet it's the Democrats moving us backwards. In this case. And that's, I feel really sad with that. And so I hope it doesn't pass. I think there's definitely needs to be different ways to look at mental health in this capacity, but it also makes me think too, like how many. How many people and, including people from our communities are going to be forced hospitalized now going forward. I mean, we already have things like 5150 and for those of you who aren't in California and don't know, 5150 is a form of forced hospitalization that is technically a, what, seventy-two hour hold. 

00:17:00 El: Seventy-two hour hold. 

00:17:01 Nate: “Free” quote unquote evaluation. And then either you're sent out or they hold you longer depending on…

00:17:09 El: If your insurance holds up. 

00:17:11 Nate: And that's another thing. If your insurance holds up. So, yeah…

00:17:15 El: I mean, a lot of neurodivergent folk, especially like autistic folk if they have like meltdowns or something like that – there's this like fixation with meltdowns. Like the first thing that comes to mind is Music by Sia with, oh god, the restraint, oh, that scene, like, makes me, oh, whatever, but, yeah, it's hard to even think about, but like, I don't think … There's such a fixation on, autistic folks as being a ticking time bomb. Like, “when are they going to have a meltdown?”, “when are they gonna–” and, there's this fear, almost. And so that also ties into like the violent, rude, stereotype. But that's where like 5150s and forced hospitalizations comes into… account, because, parents, they see this – a lot of times it's parents. It could be teachers or other adults – they see this representation in media and see folks being violent and see all these things and they understand what a meltdown is and they can recognize it. And they think it's this … they, they misunderstand, not misunderstand, but like, fear the meltdown to the point where, like, they'll threaten a 72-hour hold because, like, what else do they do? They don't have the education. They don't know, how to deal with a child who's having a meltdown and in my personal experience, I've been threatened with a seventy-two hour hold. It's not fun, especially when you're in the middle of a meltdown and you can't think straight. You're not your – you're not yourself. You don't have control over your body. 

00:18:54 Nate: Well, it's just like Ryan Gainer, rest in power, who was just murdered by the police. Fifteen year old, black autistic boy. They just murdered him in cold blood. And, it's just like you were saying, right? And as for every, disabled person, every, a lot of times I forget what the statistics there are, but they're really heavy that the majority of times. I think it's what, like, it's either like a 50-40 or, not 50-40, but like 50-60. Oh, my math is off today. I'm sorry. I have a lot of brain fog. 60-40 maybe, yeah. Anyway, for a lot of disabled folks, a lot of times they're going to leave, injured, when encountered by a police officer. 

00:19:40 El: Yeah, and oftentimes, the excuse used to force hospitalized people is, I'm afraid they're going to hurt themselves. When oftentimes they're exacting more harm than the individual themselves and rather than teaching the individuals how to either not get to the point of meltdown where they might end up hitting themselves or doing something like that. Or teaching them how to cope with it so that their meltdowns can be less severe and less explosive, instead, they're like, “Okay, let's just like round them up. Put them in the hospital.” And then, sometimes people have experiences where they're overly medicated and it's, I – if anyone's ever been in a medical induced haze, it's hell on earth. It's, it's awful. You don't have control of your mind and like, I'm lucky in that I've never actually had a 5150 actually pulled on me. But like I've, I've had friends with similar experiences. I mean, I'm friends with a bunch of autistic people, and neurodivergent people just generally. And I've had friends with those types of experiences where they're medicated to all hell during those holds.

00:20:50 Nate: Yeah, I've, I've been on those holds before. They're not fun. 

00:20:54 evelyn: They love to throw antipsychotics at just anything, really. Truly anything.

00:21:00 Nate: But, but more to the point though, when we were talking about savants and socially inept folks, right, we're talking typically looking at folks like Rain Man or…

00:21:08 El: Forrest Gump.

00:21:09 Nate: Forrest Gump, right. 

00:21:11 evelyn: Sherlock. 

00:21:12 Nate: Sherlock, yeah. 

00:21:14 El: Sheldon Cooper would count. He's a brilliant physicist. 

00:21:15 Nate: He's definitely coded as, yeah, he's definitely coded. 

00:21:20 El: He's 100% coded, even though everyone's… like, the creators and the show explicitly says that he's not autistic. It's so heavily coded. 

00:21:32 evelyn: Did not Jim Parsons, the actor, say that he believes Sheldon is on the spectrum? 

00:21:37 El: Oh, yeah. Jim Parsons completely is like, “oh, yeah, he's on the spectrum”. 

00:21:41 Nate: I'm pretty sure that's where he played it from. 

00:21:43 El: Oh, yeah. Definitely. I mean, oh, and we could definitely get into the, the whole trend of non-autistic people playing autistic people. I've only seen it done well in one place. That's Community with Abed Nadir because it's written by an autistic man. 

00:22:02 evelyn: Abed, my beloved.

00:22:03 El: It's actually done really well.

00:22:05 Nate: No, Abed's not official. Oh, well, I know. I think... 

00:22:08 El: It's not officially stated in the show, but he's written as autistic and also... pretty much confirmed by the creator to be autistic. And there's some nods to it in the show. They don't explicitly say it, but like, it's, it's very heavily implied and coded and that's how he's played as essentially. But for the most part, going back to music by Sia, Maddie Ziegler, I, oh, she was a young, she was a young girl and she didn't quite know and she thought she was doing it under, the pretenses of like adults guiding her and making sure that she wasn't doing a bad, but oh boy, it was rough. 

00:22:53 evelyn: What I remember about Sia's, there was thought process behind the casting decision of, there was some quote from Sia that was essentially, “we thought that it would be cruel to cast someone of that level of support needs in the role”. Which, okay?

00:23:12 Nate: Well, that's, and to me that's ridiculous though because there are a lot of people who, are on the spectrum and who kick ass. And, and do what they need to do. And for her saying that, right, that's, that's highly ableist. Right? And, I mean, more to the point is, Sia, it was, in a lot of ways, I think she still hasn't apologized. I think she's just, like, “whatever.”

00:23:34 El: She hasn’t.

00:23:36 evelyn: She got mad. People didn't like the movie. 

00:23:38 El: She got incredibly mad. And actually, since then, I think she's been diagnosed with autism, actually. Which... adds an extra layer of complexity, especially when considering internalized ableism, but also, even if someone from the community creates something based on the community, you can still have bad representation. Like, some of the most highly ableist folk I've met are people with disabilities. It's actually really common. 

00:24:11 Nate: Honestly. It reminded, the whole movie reminded me of something sponsored by like Autism Speaks or something. 

00:24:15 evelyn: Oh Gods. Do not speak their name. Do not. 

00:24:18 El: Oh my gosh. Same thing with The Good Doctor. 

00:24:21 evelyn: Freddie Highmore, like, sponsored them or spoke for them. 

00:24:24 El: He, he was a, he was a spokesman for them at some point. For those of you who don't… 

00:24:30 Nate: Hold on, let me fact check real quick. Is this The Good Doctor guy, right? 

00:24:32 evelyn: Yes, Freddie Highmore, I believe. 

00:24:34 El: Yeah, Freddie Highmore, non-autistic actor. The Good Doctor was sponsored and their, their main, like, research partner was Autism Speaks. Which, for those of you who don't know, I don't, I don't know if they still are. I don't think they are anymore because of the controversy. I'd actually have to double check that. I think Nate's on it right now. 

00:25:02 Nate: I'm looking, I don't see anything about a spokesperson, but I do see the connection with Autism Speaks. 

00:25:08 El: Yeah, there was a YouTube video where he was... Yeah, it was a, he's not a spokesman. He just was in a video. 

00:25:13 evelyn: One video, I think. 

00:25:14 El: Yeah, one video by Autism Speaks just speaking about it. 

00:25:18 Nate: Okay, like, he's probably, since they're representing, or they're doing the research for the show, then they're probably, yeah, that makes sense. 

00:25:27 evelyn: And just to clarify, Autism Speaks, although cannot be certain for currently… has a lot of history with just. Yes. I imagine that they just got more subtle with it, but who knows, have not looked into it immediately recently. 

00:25:42 El: Autism Speaks is an organization rejected by the community just generally. But it essentially has a mission to quote unquote “cure autism.”

00:25:52 evelyn: Eugenicism.

00:25:53 El: Essentially, yeah. They notoriously had a commercial that was highly, highly offensive. 

00:25:59 evelyn: “I am autism.” 

00:26:01 El: Yeah, that commercial that depicted autism as this awful, awful monster that was going to “destroy your family and ruin your child” and oh my gosh. So TLDR, a lot, a lot of folks don't support Autism Speaks. A lot of autistic folks don't like Autism Speaks nor support it. 

00:26:25 evelyn: Also, they endorse ABA, which is essentially conversion therapy for autistic people. 

00:26:29 El: Yeah. Applied behavioral… 

00:26:37 Nate: I'm looking up the acronym. 

00:26:38 El: Okay, thank you. 

00:26:40 Nate: Applied Behavioral Analysis? 

00:26:41 El: Yeah, I think it's an applied behavioral analysis, which is kind of like a Pavlovian-esque teaching autistic kids how to not do the behaviors that allow them to regulate themselves. So that would include stimming. For those of you who don't know, stimming is, is any, any like movement that regulates one's internal emotions, nervous system, all those types of, all that good stuff. 

00:27:09 evelyn: It is, self-stimulation is what it, I think is. 

00:27:13 El: Yeah, self-stimulation. 

00:27:15 evelyn: In my best understanding of the way I've best heard it described is... Because it can be for good feelings such as flapping hands. I do that a lot when I get very excited and happy about things. Or just soothing behaviors when there is like more negative emotions. It is just... ways of dealing instead of letting energy be only internal and kind of externalizing, regulating things. 

00:27:35 El: Yeah. Cause, a lot of autistic folk have troubles processing or identifying their own emotions. And so sometimes it can help. We've been on this topic for a while now. Let's shift gear. There's just so much to talk about. 

00:27:47 evelyn: There is a lot to talk about. 

00:27:48 El: So the next stereotype we're gonna, talk about is, the robot or alien autistic character so Sheldon Cooper comes to mind. Spock from Star Trek. Heavily coded as autistic. For those of you who have seen Steven Universe, Peridot, though a lot of autistic folks claim Peridot, but it does technically fall into the category of… 

00:28:15 evelyn: The thing with the robot/alien trope is that, is it bad on an objective level for representation and the associations that creates? Especially because most of them are not canonically confirmed as autistic, but just coded. Autistic – or allistic people, non-autistic people who see that will subconsciously recognize autistic traits even if they do not, recognize autism and have a subconscious link created between those characteristics and being non-human. But also, a lot of autistic people love those characters. They're, they're my guys. They're my, my Blorbo. 

00:28:55 Nate: Well, it's like,when Gene Roddenberry and the fellow creators were working on Star Trek, it's like, I, personally, I highly doubt they were thinking, oh, let's make Spock autistic because it wasn't, you don't really... like, I feel autism was not spoken about in that way back then. 

00:29:12 El: Oh, no, not in the 60s. 

00:29:13 Nate: It's like maybe it's like the weird uncle trope or the weird aunt trope or cousin, etc. Or, someone who may be institutionalized. But I think that was one of those things where for Spock, I think just a lot of folks connected because there wasn't a lot of representation on TV in that space for somebody who maybe not so much that they're emotionless, but someone who was curious in a way that was trying to understand humanity. And understand what it means to be a human being, especially with Spock being a half human. 

00:29:43 El: Definitely. I mean, I don't know about other folks, but like, I've certainly had the experience of, “am I even the same species?” Because I don't know how to communicate with anyone around me. Like, I feel like an alien. And that's a common experience amongst a lot of autistic folks. And, especially when you have, when you're unable to fit into social conventions and when you're told you're essentially inhuman for being unable to fit into those social conventions. It's incredibly isolating. And so, yeah, like, a lot of times those characters are often well-beloved by the community. But the problem is when you have one type of representation, it leads people to think that all autistic people are... robots who can't feel human emotion, which is incredibly not, not only ableist, but it's just wrong. Some of the most empathetic people I've ever met are autistic. 

00:30:41 evelyn: Autistic people often have heightened empathy.

00:30:43 Nate: Yeah. Like hyper, hyper empaths? Hyper empathy? Or something. 

00:30:50 El: High empathy versus hyper empathy. Yeah. And even, I, I mean, I'm, I'm friends with a low empathy autistic and like, they're incredibly, compassionate and they just have troubles like, empathizing with other people, but like they understand and care about the people around them. It's just, it's not intuitive. 

00:31:12 evelyn: It is a broader discussion of empathy as like an important thing, which is a whole nother thing that connects to a lot of different other forms of neurodiversity. And it is also just different ways of expressing and processing emotions of communicating. And just things of that nature. One of the things that comes up a lot for autistic people is, “oh, no, I am sharing a story to relate to you because I am offering this” and people think, “no, you're making it about you.” I am trying to relate to you in something in that way and just there are things of that nature and also something that happens because it is coding and often it is not intentional what happens is while you get some of these traits that can kind of be ascribed or are perceived as non-human and robotic in ways, there is no intentional care to the nuances and the actual other parts of the autistic experience. 

00:32:00 El: Yeah, because as far as the creator knows, they're just making a cool alien robot character. 

00:32:06 Nate: Well, I mean, would you, like, I, I don't know if y'all ever watched Doctor Who.

00:32:10 El and evelyn: Yes

00:32:11 El: I love Doctor Who. 

00:32:12 evelyn: Actually, that is, Hex is a fictive of Doctor Who. 

00:32:15 Nate: Okay, great. Yeah, so that's what I'm saying, right, is I feel like the Doctor would be, like, like…

00:32:20 El: Oh, especially the twelfth Doctor by Matt… Matt Smith? 

00:32:24 evelyn: No, that is eleventh

00:32:25 El: Oh, wait. 

00:32:26 Nate: Matt's eleven unless you're counting The War Doctor. 

00:32:28 El: Yeah, no, no, no. Eleven in the official term. 

00:32:32 Nate: Yeah. Matt Smith. Definitely…

00:32:34 El: Definitely autistic coded. Yes. Yes. 

00:32:37 Nate: I definitely feel that. But then also Matt Smith always kind of plays that type of person. Even when he plays a villain, he's still like, he has this energy about him… that’s like that. But yeah, I mean, it just kind of makes me think like when I watch the Doctor, especially Matt Smith's doctor, I felt like a connection with, with his Doctor specifically. Like I like Tennant’s. Chris Eccleston was all right. Like…

00:32:59 El: I like Chris Eccleston!

00:33:01 evelyn: Nine was good. Twelve was my favorite, but I mean, hold a place in our heart for Eleven because that is what gave us Hex, but still. 

00:33:09 Nate: Fair enough, yeah. I mean, I just wish, Eccleston got more time in the role. 

00:33:14 evelyn: He deserved more time.

00:33:15 Nate: Because a season is not enough. Not to really grab, I think he did good, especially for like jumping right in and then it's like, for, for, it was kind of gone for what, like ten fifteen years or something at that point. 

00:33:28 evelyn: Classic Who and NuWho. Okay, this is a discussion we do not have time to have, but I would love to have it. 

00:33:34 Nate: Maybe another episode, but yeah.

00:33:35 El: Autistic people liking Doctor Who is completely irrelevant to the conversation. 

00:33:39 evelyn: Yes, let's keep going.

00:33:40 El: I have no idea what you're talking about.

00:33:41 evelyn: Twelve is so… his journey discovering who he is is just so personal both as an autistic person and as a system. It is, he literally has an entire thing of “Who frowned me this face. Where is this face from?”

00:33:52 Nate: Oh for Capaldi?

00:33:53 evelyn: Yes, for Capaldi. I love Capaldi.

00:33:55 Nate: I, okay, after Clara left, I love Capaldi after that. Like, I, I had a problem with, okay, I liked Clara with Matt Smith.

00:34:02 El: I liked Clara with Matt but not Capaldi.

00:34:06 evelyn: The thing is, Clara was not really as well written of a character with Matt.

00:34:09 El and Nate: No, no. 

00:34:10 El: Well, I blame Moffat, but that's just a general problem with Moffat's writing.

00:34:15 evelyn: Oh, Moffat. 

00:34:17 El: He's good at one-offs. 

00:34:18 Nate: Well, Davies is back now anyway, so. 

00:34:20 El: Oh, yeah, I'm so excited for that. 

00:34:21 Nate: Did you watch the Christmas special? 

00:34:23 El: Oh, yes, the Christmas special. I did, I did. 

00:34:25 Nate: I was, I was really excited about that. I'm really, I really like the new Doctor. 

00:34:29 evelyn: Yes, he's really good. 

00:34:30 Nate: I'm digging the new doctor. I can't wait to see. 

00:34:33 El: Oh, I want to see more. 

00:34:34 Nate: Yes, I'm very excited about it. Okay, but yeah, okay. 

00:34:36 El: Okay, okay, we have to move on now. 

00:34:38 evelyn: What else do we have? Infantilization.

00:34:41 El: Yeah, we, we briefly touched on infantilization but especially with, a lot of, quote unquote “lower functioning”, which… autistic, we don't really use functioning. 

00:34:57 Nate: The severity scales, yeah. 

00:34:58: El: Because the severity scales, it's, it's not, it's not, it implies worth, tied. 

00:35:03 Nate: Medical model, totally.

00:35:05 El: Medical model, worth tied to it, the ability to serve society, something, something, something, capitalism. But for folks who have a harder time, blending in with society or might have some learning disabilities alongside with, or intellectual disabilities alongside, their autism diagnosis, like, they are often viewed as being children, even if they're an adult. And this is actually really common for a lot of autistic folks, especially for autistic folks being treated by their parents as though they're children all the way up and into adulthood. And I've seen it a lot where they're full grown adults and their mom is still micromanaging every single move they do. And this ties into the general trend of a lot of disabled folk aren't able to become independent because they're not allowed to become independent. 

00:36:07 evelyn: Yes, legal guardianship. 

00:36:08 El: And this one, and this one's right, hard, especially if you have an autistic person who has higher support needs but, just because someone might need higher support needs doesn't necessarily mean that they can't be their own person. And right, it's hard. It really is hard. You have anything to say?

00:36:35 evelyn: I am just... well, thinking about capitalism, and just thinking, especially because when it comes into the context of how much people need, what kind of needs they have. It just gets into when is this not feasible under the capitalist model? And I do not know.

00:36:54 El: I mean, if we were open to representation, I mean, Sheldon Cooper... is actually treated like a child a lot of times on the show. So much so that there's an ongoing bit about Leonard and Penny being like parents to Sheldon. And that's its whole thing. For context, the reason why I know so much about The Big Bang Theory, it was a special interest of mine when I was like eight, unfortunately. So I just have like this wealth of knowledge about The Big Bang Theory. But that aside, but no, Sheldon Cooper is very much treated as a child, viewed as being like, whenever he doesn't get his way, quote unquote, like, he's viewed as like a “child throwing a temper tantrum.” His interests, specifically special interests, a lot of times they're viewed as being very childish. If you like superheroes or some autistic people…

00:37:46 Nate: Trains.

00:37:47 El: Trains is another big one. Oh my gosh. I've, I've seen autistic people also less conventionally. Stuffed animals, plushes. 

00:37:56 evelyn: My guy. My little guys. I need them. 

00:37:58 Nate: They help me sleep.

00:38:00 evelyn: I need my little bed full of guys. 

00:38:01 Nate: I got a bunch of em.

00:38:02 El: Yeah, but oftentimes… these interests are reserved for children. And that's a, that's a larger problem with…

00:38:11 evelyn: It is also the conception of what adulthood means. And it is independent and conforming to all of the expectations of a capitalist society. Including not questioning a lot of the social constructs that we have created. 

00:38:24 El: Yeah, but for a lot of, autistic folk, these interests, no matter how childish they may seem, oftentimes they help someone understand the world. I mean, I remember, watching my silly little cartoons. And being able to process all the emotions I was going through, through those characters, it's often an incredibly important part of a child's, or even an adult's, just a person's internal self-regulation. And also, can I be happy about something? Like, generally?

00:38:57 evelyn: Yes, let me be happy! Let me feel love for something. 

00:39:00 El: I'd like to be happy about something. 

00:39:01 Nate: You know what's funny is on the Big Bang Theory subreddit, like, they say Sheldon is Leonard's dad. 

00:39:09 El and evelyn: Really? What? 

00:39:10 Nate: Yeah, well, because remember, so remember Sheldon named his, one of his children Leonard. 

00:39:16 El: Oh, yeah. 

00:39:17 Nate: But also…

00:39:18 evelyn: Sheldon had kids?

00:39:19 El: He married Amy! 

00:39:20 Nate: Amy Farrah Fowler, yeah. I just did a watch, rewatch, like, a couple months ago. So it's fresh in my head. 

00:39:28 El: Nah this is all just coming from like a decade ago of me just being obsessed with this show. 

00:39:31 Nate: But yeah, they say he's, I forgot what it was too. Cause I think also he owned Leonard a couple of times on some of the disses. So it was like, but, I think that's also, but you're 100% right where it's like, oh, my mother bought me these pants, right? It's something that Sheldon would say pretty often. And it's interesting, if you watch Young Sheldon, like, he feels more mature in comparison to his adult counterpart. Like, he's written more mature in comparison. 

00:39:57 El: But I feel like... that's actually pretty common for the autistic experience or like the gifted kid experience. 

00:40:03 Nate: Yes, you're always an adult. 

00:40:04 El: I was very mature for my age. Like, I was constantly praised for it. I was very intelligent. I was very well behaved. And then I got to adulthood and I'm like, actually, no, I'm tired. I want to, I want to enjoy quote unquote “childish” interests. I want to be able to be myself. And that's construed as immature, childish. And this is like a super common thing. Even, after, a lot of times this transition happens because of burnout. I face burnout in high school just because it's so tiring to be masking all the time. And, I'm still going through the after effects of burnout. And, a lot of times people just see the transition from quote unquote “mature, and the best, and being able to do all these things” to, “Oh … what are you doing with your life? oh, are you resting? You used to be so ambitious.” And it's like, yeah, but did you not see me crash and burn from a mile away?

00:41:10 evelyn: I was suffering. 

00:41:12 Nate: Yeah. I think for me it was kind of the reverse because I didn’t have accommodations in high school. So it was basically like kind of pushed to the side and tried to stick me in special ed. And thats when I rebelled and ended up in either in juvie or 5150. It was kind of like either or… it was one of those things where I eventually dropped out. When I came back to college, though, it was very different. Right. For me. And so it was, it was one of those tropes where it's like, OK, now you're a what is it? I forget what the, I had a terminology in my head and it's just gone. But, just kind of one of those things where it's like – I was talking with a, with an old friend of mine. And we were talking about, what, how we were during childhood, how things, it's, that's twenty something years ago. She was just talking about, “oh yeah, you were such, you were so stoic when you were young” and I was just like, I was like, “yeah, that's what I thought I was supposed to be.” Yeah. Just being me. I wasn't being stoic specifically.

00:42:11 El: I got that. I was asking some friends in high school like, “Hey, how was I in elementary school?” Because I was trying to figure out like who I was as a person, because I realized I was a social chameleon and I was like, who am I?

00:42:20 evelyn: Same, same!

00:42:21 El: A very common thing for high masking autistic individuals. And they were like, “you were so like professional and serious and intimidating.”

00:42:31 Nate: Serious. Yeah. That's what I get. 

00:42:33 El: And, it was interesting because I was looking back and I was like, oh, yeah, I used to have a flip switch where at school I was serious, I was professional, whatever. When I got back home, I was a wild child. I kind of did whatever the hell I wanted. And it's so jarring to look back and be like, oh, I was putting on a whole performance every single day. 

00:42:53 Nate: That was draining.

00:42:54 El: Oh, yeah. It's exhausting. It really is. All right. Now we can do a quick little closing. 

00:42:59 Nate: Okay. Sounds good. 

00:43:02 evelyn: Why is representation important? Which is a thing that unfortunately needs to get explained sometimes. 

00:43:08 Nate: It does, yeah. It's totally important. I mean, I think now you're seeing in media where it's like more... visually disabled people are being more shown, which is good…

00:43:20 evelyn: It is good, but it's because of the issue that how do you represent, especially for psychiatric and neurological disabilities, the internal experience that is going on.

00:43:30 El: And that's, that's the problem with the, with the visual media itself. But I think it's also a challenge for filmmakers to expand their repertoire and get creative. Collaborate with the autistic actors themselves. They might have insights into being autistic, fun fact. Or having an internal experience for like neurodivergent folk in general. I mean, like, it's been done before and a lot of movies convey internal experiences. But... it's, it's one of those things where like, yeah, it's a challenge, but like you have to do the work because, autistic people are not a monolith. I mean, there's a common saying in the community, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person. Like, there's such a wide variety to the experience and, being an autistic person that honestly can only be shown if you have more than just one type of representation. 

00:44:31 evelyn: That is why these tropes are just really bad, because they only create really one or two or three images of what autism can be. 

00:44:38 El: Like, for instance, the robot/alien trope. I mean, that, a lot of people relate to that, but if it's the only one that's available, then that creates a problem. 

00:44:51 evelyn: And if it is not done with nuance and proper research and attention and actually communicating with autistic people.

00:44:55 El: Definitely.

00:44:56 Nate: And that just connects back to what you were saying about inspiration porn, right? Because the media oftentimes, right? Because as autistic folks, right? It's like our lives are our lives. We go about our lives, living our daily lives just like everybody else.

00:45:10 evelyn: (Sarcastically) No! Autism is bad! You are overcoming that struggle. And also you are a genius for unrelated reasons.

00:45:16 Nate: And that's, and that's what, Stella Young, who was a disability advocate from Australia, that's one of the things that she advocated against was inspiration porn. Right. And that's something that we need to understand when we're consuming things, especially media. Right? Is what is inspiration porn look like? And, and oftentimes that's what you, that's the only time you'll see… like, an autistic person as, like, The Good Doctor, right? It's inspiration porn.

00:45:39 El: Yeah, Good Doctor. Also, Love on the Spectrum on Netflix.

00:45:44 evelyn: So infantilizing. 

00:45:46 El: Very infantilizing. The people on there, great. 

00:45:48 Nate: Oh, yeah, the people are great. 

00:45:49 El: I love the cast. The editing is, oh, so bad.

00:45:54 evelyn: That also is a thing we did not get to talk about, which is the desexualization. 

00:45:57 El: Oh, desexualization.

00:45:58 Nate: But that'll be for another episode. 

00:45:59 evelyn: We can do another episode. 

00:46:00 El: That's a whole other issue, yeah. 

00:46:01 evelyn: I think also from a representation perspective, just especially the “autism or neurodiversity is a bad thing, so we need to compensate it with another good thing.” From a storytelling perspective, because there is, in a story, if you're writing a story, you want to create interesting characters. But what this says is that autism on its own, being an autistic person inherently makes you not interesting enough. And you are not worth being the main character in your own story. Something else needs to be there. You need to be exceptionally talented at something.

00:46:29 El: Yeah, you're on the outskirts.

00:46:32 Nate: The expectation, or was it the, yeah, expectation would it be? 

00:46:34 evelyn: I would say expectation – it sets a bar for what autistic people have to be. If you are not a super genius…

00:46:41 Nate: Right. If you're not a Sheldon Cooper or if you're not the Good Doctor, then your story is not worth being told.

00:46:48 El: Which is utter, utter BS, to be honest. Well, that wraps up today's episode. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you, evelyn, and thank you, Nate, for joining me this episode … 

00:47:01 evelyn: Wonderful to be here.

00:47:02 El: …and we will, we will, see y'all next week.

00:47:06 evelyn: Wait, bi-weekly.

00:47:09 Nate: We're out.