Breaking the Blocks
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Thanks for stopping by! Life is tough, and I think this podcast might offer you some relief. My aim? To inspire you to overcome some of your own blocks through the inspirational, honest, and at times, downright raw conversations with some wonderful guests, not huge celebrities, regular people like you and I. Let’s see how they have overcome the difficulties in their lives and offer you some advice and more importantly hope.
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Breaking the Blocks
Emily Watts on Overcoming Illness with Creativity
How do you keep your creative spirit alive while facing the challenges of a chronic illness? Emily Watts, an accomplished animator and passionate quilter, shares her personal journey, balancing her artistic passions with the realities of debilitating fatigue and vertigo. Growing up with a love for art, her parents once advised her to keep it as a hobby, but Emily defied that advice, transitioning from a corporate job to a thriving career in animation. Her story is a testament to overcoming both personal and professional hurdles, drawing strength from her creative endeavors.
Emily’s life is woven with the threads of digital animation and tactile quilting. Discover how she found solace in quilting through the Santa Monica Quilt Guild during her toughest times, and how the physical and community aspects of quilting complemented her digital work. Emily offers a candid look into the emotional toll of living with a chronic condition, the complexities of differentiating between symptoms, and the comfort she finds in her creative projects despite the limitations imposed by her health.
In our conversation, Emily also talks about the profound impact of her plant-themed quilt, a year-long project that became a symbol of perseverance and personal growth. Initially overlooked for its simplicity, the quilt resonated deeply with many due to its heartfelt backstory. Emily reflects on the value of simple connections, the universal experience of self-doubt, and the importance of patience and perseverance. This episode is an inspiring exploration of redefining identity, embracing change, and finding joy and meaning in art and adversity. Join us for an enriching discussion on the intersection of creativity and resilience.
You can follow here on @emilywattsquilts on Instagram
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Breaking the Blocks. I'm your host, rachel Pierman. I absolutely loved the conversation I had with today's guest, emily Watts. You can find her on Instagram, emilywattsquilts, if you'd like to follow her there. She is a quilter, but she's also a full-time animator.
Speaker 1:What I find fascinating about Emily is how she is being. What I find fascinating about Emily is how she is being creative with her life and I say life because Emily suffers from a chronic illness, an illness that gives her debilitating fatigue and horrendous vertigo. Somehow, she has found some ways around this illness in order to sustain her creativity, to keep doing what makes her happy and, in turn, what brings others joy. We had a fascinating conversation about how to overcome illness, but also how to progress in our lives, how to lose the people that we once were in order to become the people that we need to be. So I hope that you'll enjoy this episode.
Speaker 1:Sit back and relax. Emily, here we are on the podcast. So nice to have you in the studio to have a chat. So I got you on the podcast because, first of all, I was drawn in by your lovely quilting, which is such fun. You know your fried eggs and your bacon strips and your curvy, wavy lines and binding and colours. It's just such fun. But obviously I got you here today because I'd seen your lovely quilting work. But then I saw a post where you said that actually you were returning back to quilting because you had had a very difficult couple of years. So obviously, this being breaking the blocks, I thought let's get her on, let's see what the block is and how she's broken it. So we'll talk about all of that in this podcast, but let's begin with you, emily. Let's begin with you. Have you always? Well, obviously you weren't quilting when you were a baby, because that would be dangerous with needles. But have you been a quilter for many, many, many years? Or is it something that you've just picked up later in life?
Speaker 2:yeah, no, quilting specifically is maybe the last. I guess I started when my daughter was a baby, so I can chart it off of her age. So eight years now, seven or eight years, um, but I would say that my parents fostered art in our life from a very young age. I do remember them, even though we had very limited financial means. I remember the things that they would invest in were art classes, pottery classes, drawing classes, so I think they made it a priority, even though they never expressed it as a priority. They were taking us to art schools and classes when we were young.
Speaker 2:I will say, though, my dad has a very specific philosophy around art, or whatever your passion may be, and he always says save the thing that you love to do most as a hobby, save it for yourself, and find the thing you like to do second best, and that is allowed to be your job, but you're not allowed to make the thing that you love most be your job, and I think people might disagree with that or not. So, despite the fact that they were very encouraging about art and art lessons, it was very much as a hobby only.
Speaker 2:There were times in college even where I said I think I might want to go to art school after this I think I might want to major in studio art. And they were like absolutely not Get a job, make some money. No, I worry about you too much. You cannot make a living in art. Save that for yourself. They were very encouraging in art that. Save that for yourself. They were very encouraging. And then also in terms of a career, kind of actively discouraging. You know, in the end, I guess as an animator, I ended up defying them eventually, but in a roundabout way. I did take their advice first and went into a corporate cubicle for many years and crunched numbers and then just said you, you know, I really think I can do something with the art. I think I can, and and they've come around too. Um, you know, I think they see that as an animator, I'm paying the bills and you know and enjoying it, and so it's okay.
Speaker 1:I am fascinated by this statement you just made. I mean, there are so many things that I could I won't say the word pick or two words pick apart, but I don't mean that in a negative way your parents, what did they do?
Speaker 2:Or what did they do, or you did a lot of things and they worked very, very hard. So my they met in Taiwan. My mom was an accountant there.
Speaker 2:My dad he was teaching English as an American and so they met there and they came back and my dad has been an electrical engineer and that was probably most of his career was as an electrical engineer, but he's taught classes in community college in electrical engineering. He's been a realtor. He's done a lot of different things. When my mom came to the US because she didn't speak English, she started working in a kitchen. She worked all our lives in a Chinese restaurant or a couple of different Chinese restaurants. Oh, they owned their own Chinese restaurant for a little while there.
Speaker 2:That went under and I remember they were working opposite cycles, so my dad would go to work and then my mom would go in the restaurant open for dinner at like five and she would get home when the bar closed at 2am and so they worked and they worked hard and they had three kids, and so I absolutely understand where the encouragement around trying something that makes it easier for you to make money. I understand where that comes from. It's legit. You know. It's not him trying to like snap out my dreams or anything. It's him saying like I don't want this to be so hard for you, so it's fair advice.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get it. I get it. But what I find interesting is there are so many parents who follow that route of thinking because it's been difficult for them, because they've had to work and work and work, to pay the bills and keep a roof over their head and bring their kids up. So I totally get it that so many parents say, no, you, you can't do anything artistic, you can't do anything creative, you, you've got to get something solid, because it's all about you have to earn the money. But what was fantastic was that your parents wanted you to also experience the other side of you, the artistic side, the creative side, by doing all of these things with you. So I found that an interesting juxtaposition, because I'm not sure how many parents do the both. I almost feel like they're in one camp where they just go, yeah, do what you want or no, you must get a job, and they don't do anything creative. But maybe that's just me seeing things as well.
Speaker 2:I think it's true, it's something unique. I wish there was a different word for it, because I think sometimes people think of hobbies as whatever. It's just a hobby. You're just tinkering. But if there was a different word that you know it's, it's a passion or it's a practice. It's something that you do, but it's not necessarily your profession.
Speaker 2:I think there's real value in that. I mean, I know there's value in that. There's health value in that too. My mom she was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's a couple years ago, and so you read so much about dementia and Alzheimer's and a lot of it is hobby, social groups around the hobbies, different things. So it's good for you, it's. You know, I think I don't know redefine hobby as something equally or even more important than your job. But I'm not 100% on board with my dad. I do actually think if you could make your passion your job and not have it make you hate the art or hate what you're doing, that's like that's the ultimate right like then you get to do it all day long and you get to put all your time toward it, so that's great.
Speaker 2:I think his concern is that as soon as you have clients and deadlines and you have you know you have to pay the bills with it. That it sucks the joy out of it.
Speaker 1:You see, that's what I was going to say was the other interesting part as well, because I get the needing to earn a living, um, so don't do the arty thing as a full-time. But I was going to say I also saw what he was saying that when you love something, if then you have to make it into a business, then you can lose the love for it, which is what happens to so many of the quilters I've spoken to have made it into their full-time business and then begin to hate it because of the deadlines and they they start to lose their own creativity. So, yeah, I think your dad has um got some very good points that he's made there, but in the end you just ignored him with our parents, don't we?
Speaker 1:I did it when I wanted to go to drama school and I remember giving up my job. I was working as an advertising exec for a radio station and I absolutely hated every day of it because it was just selling radio advertising. But my dad saw that I had a brand new company car, I was able now to rent my house, I was, you know, bombing up and down the motorway and going to stadiums and selling them advertising space and he just saw it. It was amazing and I was like it's the worst thing. I want to be an actor. And he was like, but that's just ridiculous, you're never going to earn any money.
Speaker 1:He was right, I never did. But yeah, I think sometimes, if that passion is within you, you can't, you can't put a lid on that, can you? You have to explore these things in life. You have to explore them, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean I definitely tiptoed into it. So yeah, I did. On the side, I found projects in the, you know, in the corporate cubicle where there were little happy hours and I would make the happy hour animated video to get them like just stupid, you know, stupid, unpaid little things but um, and tiptoed with a, with a corporate paycheck for a little while, for a long while, until it made sense, which is hard. That's exhausting. You're tired after work, like there's not always the energy to um to go and then pursue your passion. So I I get it both ways. Like you know, you can't always keep it as a side hustle, because it's hard to run a side hustle, but that's how I did it and it it worked better for me yeah, but you know, you and I, when we had last talks, we had a conversation about some Buddhist, uh, preachings and learnings, didn't we?
Speaker 1:and one thing that comes mind and I'm sure that you're on this wavelength is that I think we're called like you were and I think little opportunities will present themselves for us to then take those opportunities, even if it is just, as you say, dipping your toe in the water, finding little ways to always get you onto the path where you're meant to be. And I've heard a lot of artists say that they had that.
Speaker 1:They call it like a calling, like an inner calling even if they tried to escape it because they thought I need to pay my mortgage Somehow. It always tapped them on the shoulder. It was always there.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I agree with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So you made that leap. So you were working in the corporate world, you went into animation, which I know. You still are an animator. It's interesting interviewing you, emily, because breaking the blocks is not just about quilting. Obviously, I meet a lot of quilters, but with you, it's the quilting and it's the animation. You are just being creative and artistic every day. So what does the quilting do for you that the animation has not done for you? Because animation in itself is art and being creative. So why did you feel the need to do the quilting? Was it filling in something that was missing in the animation?
Speaker 2:You know, I will say I stumbled upon the quilting quite randomly. So that was at the church where my kids went to preschool. That is where the Santa Monica Quilt Guild meets, and so once a month I would see these Santa Monica Quilt Guild meets, and so once a month I would see these, I'm going to say ladies it was mostly ladies, but it was not entirely ladies, but it was mostly ladies. So I'd see these ladies huddled in this auditorium room and sometimes they had sewing machines and even when they didn't have sewing machines, they had quilt stands and they were holding up their quilts and it was just so beautiful to me and it was like a sense of community. And they also they had, you know, buffets they had put together and they worked on projects. It was just really lovely.
Speaker 2:And I and I just saw it just literally, literally peeking in the door like this, and I did a few I think I must have done it three or four times because finally one of these women came to the door and said you, you come here. And I was like, oh no, I'm in trouble, I was like snooping on their meeting. And she goes come here, you're, you're a quilt, you're interested in quilting. Come sit down, we need we need some more young people in this club anyway. And I was like no, no, no, I don't quilt, I don't sew, I don't even own a sewing machine. And she was like, yeah, but come sit with us. We welcome all quilters and soon-to-be quilters to this meeting. And so her name was Judith. She turns out she's one of my neighbors, she's a block away and she just literally dragged me into this meeting.
Speaker 2:So I was dragged by the arm into quilting and it did fulfill something a little bit different, because animation, at least the type that I do, I don't know. You know some people work in so many different ways, but the type I do is very digital. It is drawing on a computer, on a tablet, and in some ways it's almost mathematical, because you're kind of programming different moves but you're saying, okay, you know, angle the body 12 degrees this way and then 12 degrees this way and bounce it down 15 pixels, whatever. So it's, it's mathematical, it's very digital. And so I found in quilting something tactile and physical, and I had babies at the time and you know it's art. You can wrap them in and you can put it on your wall and it's there and it exists and it's soft and it absorbs sound and it feels warm, I don't know. There's something that feels good about it that is virtual.
Speaker 2:In animation started very traditional because I was in this quilt guild with very traditional quilters, so I learned all the traditional techniques, which I think was very, very helpful, and then branched out and all of a sudden just found myself drawing essentially on quilt the way I do in animation. So I think it was a pretty natural crossover.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned that you were just returning back to quilting because you'd had to take a break for a while because you were struggling with. Was it fatigue? Can we talk about that? What actually happened?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So it started out as a sudden I mean we're talking out of nowhere just absolutely debilitating vertigo. So I woke up one day and the room was spinning and I was dizzy, I could barely walk. I was kind of holding onto the walls as I moved through the house. It was bad and I had no idea what was happening. I went and laid down that day and I slept. I just stayed in bed for I think I slept for 20, 24 hours almost.
Speaker 2:In my, you know, I have two little kids I think they were four and five at the time and my husband, like we're just like what is what is happening? He's taking care of the kids. Mom's been in bed for a day, um, and I, you know, I saw a couple of doctors and, um, they tested and there's like it's, you know, it's called BPPV, it's like a positional inner ear vertigo, and they're like it comes and goes. There's no cure, can't really do anything, which was such an unacceptable answer to me. It was so depressing and it was it Cause I mean I could barely live and you go from considering yourself healthy and you know that, or at least anytime you've had to, I've had something. It was fixable. Eventually I could take a medicine or I just, you know, healed it and this idea that, well, it's chronic, it'll come back, I don't, we don't really know and who knows. It was also very depressing and it was really scary. So it was like anxiety mixed with depression, mixed with this is I cannot live like this. This is so. I mean, it was nausea, it was terrible. And then I saw another doctor who is really fantastic, did every test on planet Earth and procedures and medicines, and we've worked through it over the past year or so, past year or so.
Speaker 2:But there are aspects of it, like chronic fatigue, that are hard to tease out, because it's like is it depression, because you're sad, you know, like the vertigo and the loss and it's scary, or is it? I don't feel depressed, but the chronic, is it part of the medicine for it? I don't know. So there's not, there's not a fix, there's not. There's just like trying different things, trying different procedures when the vertigo gets bad again.
Speaker 2:And I feel like a little embarrassed even talking about, like saying, chronic fatigue because we are all tired. I know we're all tired, I know we're all busy, I know even before I had this, I was tired, I was sleepy. I had kids. It's exhausting, but this is like another level. This is I can sleep for 20 hours and wake up feeling like I want to go back to bed. I can be working and be like I absolutely have to take a nap right now. Right now there's no choice, like I am falling, I'm falling asleep at my computer, I have to go lay down for and then the the nap. I could nap for hours and it doesn't feel rejuvenating. So it's weird. There's something weird. It's getting better.
Speaker 2:I will say the vertigo is getting better, but, um, so the return to quilting was through modifications to the process, um, not through like, oh, I fixed that and now I'm back, um, so I think that is what I would love to talk to you about, because I think you know, in terms of, like, breaking the blocks or overcoming the challenge, I don't think I I didn't overcome the challenge. It's still there and I didn't break through the blocks, but finding ways to crawl through it and work with it. And I think for a lot of people, we will have challenges that you won't be able to fix. You will not be able to change it, you will not be able to overcome it, but you may be able to find ways to live with it, to adjust with it and to make things you love work under new constraints. So that is what I've done over the past year in making changes to bring this back into my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, emily, when you said there about you know feeling almost embarrassed because of the word fatigue and everybody gets tired, I totally, I totally agree with what you say. I think it's. I mean, I'm a migraine sufferer and about two days before the migraine I get extreme tiredness and I absolutely know what you mean because I will try and work through it. I'll sit at my computer and think, no, I have so much to do, and I totally get what you mean. My body is actually wanting to shut down because it's going we're in trouble here. We are in trouble, and you know I completely get. You just want to go to sleep. So it's not just, oh, I'm tired, I've had a hard day. It's like the body is saying we have to go to sleep here. So I get that.
Speaker 1:But I think also as well, it's kind of equates it with mental illness. Not that I'm saying it's a mental illness, but I think people are. If they have some sort of mental illness, it's like oh yeah, but it's not like I've broken my leg Because it's going on in the head. You know something wrong with us. We don't equate it to be a legitimate illness as a physical illness, but it actually is. I think, any illness that we suffer, whether it is depression, anxiety, through to a physical illness, it's all exactly the same, it's just a different way of showing itself. But yours, as you say, it's not it. You know it's. You will have anxiety and depression with it because, as you say, you're just like oh, I can't cure this, there is no cure for this, and that is a big block in itself, isn't it?
Speaker 1:my friend has just had a stroke and it's the same sort of thing. They can't tell her how much better she will get, how long it will will take. So it's that worry and that fear of thinking will I ever be back to myself again? So was that the block for you? Was it more the worry and stress over will I ever be myself again, more than the actual physical block, or was it kind of 50-50?
Speaker 2:I think it was both, because I think, and I think that they may have compounded each other. It's hard to tell if the fatigue came from just feeling so depressed about it and so lost and feeling like I have to modify my life now. I used to sew when my kids went to sleep and I would get in. People describe that artistic flow. I would start at 8.30 when they're in bed and think I'm going to sew and I would. You know I would get in. You did people describe that artistic flow. I would start at eight 30 when they're in bed and think I'm going to sew for 30 minutes, go to bed at nine or something and you just get into it and you're sewing, and then it's midnight all of a sudden. But I was so in it and I had done so much and you didn't even think about it. That was not possible anymore. That state of flow could not be accessed because they don't have the energy. I there's no way I could sit down and then find myself at midnight and have spent three hours sewing without even realizing it. Um, it's not, it's, it's physically not possible anymore. Um, so I did.
Speaker 2:I had to make physical shortcuts in the process and then I had to address whether those were cheating. You know like it was. It was at first, you know, and a lot of it's my husband's encouragement, so I give him credit for this and I push back every time. Oh well, what are you working on? I'm like I'm cutting out all these application shapes. I could only have the energy to cut one a day, which is, you know, I got one. I'm going to bed now and I'm like it's taking forever. It'll take me 10 years to finish this quilt. And he's like why don't you get one of those Cricut machines? And I'm like absolutely not. I am not a crafter, I am an artist, I'm a quilter. I will not get a crafting tool, no way. That's cheating. It takes it from an art to a craft and you have this stupid idea that craft is just a product and your art is your emotion.
Speaker 2:And now, if I just get a cricket, anyone could just cut a shape out, whatever. That's cheating, that's not real art. He was offering all these suggestions and it was just get a machine to do that, get, oh, you're frustrated about this machine doesn't do this. And you have to change the thread and go get another sewing machine and have one that has a twin needle and can do a zigzag and then do your straight stitch. Oh, get a serger, do these things. You just had very practical solutions that I was like the more you tell me, the more this is not a handmade product anymore, like you, it is now. It's like manufactured. Have you taken the heart out of it? You know so I get into this debate with him about handmade versus machine made or manufactured. But all of these lines are so arbitrary. It's like okay, why am I allowed to use a sewing machine, and that's an okay machine, but the cutter machine, that's a craft you know or?
Speaker 2:you know what. It's all so ridiculous and it's all just labeling things and putting arbitrary values on the process of making something, the process of having a vision and enjoying it. And yeah, if you can do it faster and in ways that make it possible, then do it that way. If there's parts that you hate, send that part out to someone else or find a tool that does it. It does not cheapen the process, it doesn't cheapen the product. You still made something and you still did it.
Speaker 2:And even in those shortcuts you can do them mindfully. You can even my cricket, the cricket machine, which I now I know I still say it with such disdain but even then like the process of setting it up and drawing the shapes in my computer and setting the fabric and watching it come out and watching the machine cut it. Why can't that be just as mindful and meditative as doing it with the scissors and the shears? If that's something I have the energy to do, can I be in the moment and appreciate that process? And even if it's 15 minutes and not three hours, can that 15 minutes be meaningful and healing to me? And it can. So a lot of it was. I was really holding myself back by saying I can't do this anymore because it has to be done the proper way, and the proper way takes time, and the proper way takes blood and tears and sweat and hours, and if it's not, then it's not valuable, and that was wrong.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you know I'm going to put something to you now and I don't know if you thought about this yourself, but I wonder, just listening to all of that, and it's great what you're saying, that now you've come to terms with this and you're using these things and actually it is meditative and it's working for you, which is fantastic, and I think that's a really strong message for people, which is where I'm going to take it a step deeper, because I wonder if there was something in you, emily it wasn't about, but if I do that, then it's not handmade, and if I do that, it's not proper, and if I do that, that means I'm a crafter. I wonder if there was something inside of you that was like I'm not giving into this illness, I'm not giving into this, I'm not going to take shortcuts because I'm. I'm just not giving into it. I want to retain myself, my soul, me, I'm not giving in.
Speaker 1:I wonder if there was something in that that was a bit deeper than just oh. But if I make it with a cricket, then it's not handmade. I think there's something a bit deeper than that. What do you think?
Speaker 2:yeah, I think there was absolutely an attachment to an identity of the maker, the quilter, the artist, and that is, yeah, I think that's an excellent reading and it's it rings very true to me that there's letting go of this image of yourself and this identity you've built around who you are as a maker, and that you are less than. If you are not doing it in this perfect way, or that you cannot do it in the way, then you're also admitting a physical weakness as well. So, yeah, I think that's absolutely true.
Speaker 1:And I think that goes for a wider spectrum of people and their identities and their things that they need. I'm just reminded of my dad when he was in his latter stages of blood leukemia, blood cancer, and I kept saying to him get a scooter, get a scooter. Because he was saying he couldn't get out anymore. I couldn't do things and I said if you just get a scooter, you can go out into the fresh air. He wouldn't do it, wouldn't do it, and I was like why I'm not there yet? I said but you are there because you can't get out into the fresh air. But it was this mindset of his and he said to me at one point I don't want people to see me on a scooter. And it's interesting, isn't it? Why we hold on to this identity that we have and we have to sometimes change and adapt and move into who we need to become. We have to let go of who we are in order to become who we need to be.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, you mentioned kind of the audience there too, because I think there's one, it's one level of me saying I don't want to admit that I can't do this, or I don't want to admit that I'm somehow lesser and I'm doing something that I perceive to be lesser. But then there's also this other, even more ridiculous level of this imagined audience, this audience of other people that are somehow have enough time to be out there judging you and caring what you do. No, they're not. They're not like. I mean, they might take, it's true, on like on Instagram or something. They might take a second, sure To be like. That's not the proper way to do it.
Speaker 2:But you, you're regarding them beyond that, beyond like a snippy comment. You are imagining this audience of people like your father, imagining the people judging him as being a you know, and I, a lesser person or a disabled person or an older person or something, and it's like that audience is not there. They're not out there judging you. If they are like who cares? Like who cares. If they are, I just I don't think they're there. But if they are, who cares?
Speaker 1:Well, also as well, emily, if someone is there judging you, well, you don't really want them in your life anyway. Because, um, you know, if someone is going to judge someone for being on a scooter, if someone's going to make a derogatory comment, if someone's going to look at a quilt and go, let's use that cricket, they really need to start looking at what's missing in their lives that they're so judgmental of other people. And we know, we all know this. We joke about the quilt police, but we do. We know, we all know this. We joke about the quilt police, but we do. We know these people, you know that are judgmental in daily life, not just creatively. So obviously you made that, you made that leap. How long did it take you then to make that change, to give in? How long? And how long did you fight with yourself? And then what?
Speaker 2:you just go, I'm doing it, I'm doing it so I think two years because I can kind of look at it's funny, I can look at it in terms of quilt con entries, because two years ago I had like six quilt con entries. I was putting them in. I put quilts and other quilt in uh road to California, and so you can just see the productivity fall off a cliff. And I don't mean productivity and like let's all be you know producing, but just I was producing those things with joy. I will say that I was producing them not out of compulsion to enter quilt shows, but because I was like just energized by it. I started sewing and I forgot how long I'd been sewing, but then you could see zero, no quilts. After that there was nothing for a year. And then the next year there was one quilt, one quilt, and that was the one that you saw where I just I entered in quilt con. It was the only quilt I had made in those two years.
Speaker 2:And in the artist statement I just was like this is just, it's a plant quilt, it is like a snapshot of some plants in my window, that's it, some shrubs. And so it didn't really tell a story. It didn't have a political message, it did not. It was so personal to me of just I looked out the window and I thought I feel like maybe I can make a quilt. I think I'll just make something leafy like that and it'll be easy and it'll be okay. So I worked on that and it took me a long time. It took me like a year because I hadn't quite, I hadn't figured out the cheats, I had not accepted my husband's suggestions yet. So it took me a year to make that one and the artistic statement was just about vertigo and chronic fatigue. It was, hey, I felt really crappy and it was really hard to make this quilt and, um, you know, so this quilt's a victory for me.
Speaker 2:One day I just said I'll make something leafy. This quilt is titled something leafy. Here it is, you know, and it got in the show and I think, um, a lot of people reached out to me afterwards and I thought I was like that's not really a real artistic statement. You see, I'm so often being like that's not a real artistic statement, that's not. And so I was like that's such a throwaway thing. But so many people reached out to me afterwards and said that really touched me as an artistic statement.
Speaker 2:I felt like I knew you better. I felt like I knew the art better. I felt like that told me so much about what you were going through. I related to it because I'm going through that and so that really transformed my thinking even further around the value, I guess, of my quilts and my designs, because I think you mentioned, like you, like the humor of my quilts and I've always just thought of my quilts as they're humorous and they're funny and they're like a slice of life, but they don't have a narrative and they don't have a message. I'm not really challenging you, I'm just making you laugh or whatever.
Speaker 2:And I have thought that to be lesser in the past. I think that you need a thesis and you need to provoke and you need to invoke a feeling in people and for some reason I thought that feeling had to be negative. You have to invoke anger or sadness or confusion or something for it to be real art. And it was very nice to have that quote go in there and show me that there's a place for humor in art and that humor is not just or whimsy. I would say that particular quote was more whimsical than humorous. That humor in art is not like oh, you just laugh at it, ha ha, that's that cool, it's a joke, it's a donut, ha ha, and you move on, that there can be something beneath that that is still clever and you can interact with an artist through laughing and through feeling some joy. And I think there is an opportunity to connect with someone subconsciously through humor or through whimsy or through just a shared slice of life experience that's not them telling you something or communicating something, and and it creates a conversation. And so I think that there is a place for that type of maybe seemingly very surface level humor and whimsy in art or in quilting, because I think that there's often something underneath that that is profound, beyond the joke on the surface, and it meets people where they are. If you just want to laugh at the quilt and enjoy it and say that's cute, that's funny, that's totally okay, that's fine, have a laugh with me and let's just joke.
Speaker 2:But if it touches you and makes you feel like that reminds you of when my dad used to take us to get donuts as a kid and gosh, those outings were really like. They really are a core memory to me now, or something. There are stories there and I think it's nice because it brings the story of the viewer in a little bit more and we can share that. So anyway, that is. I think it's nice because it's like it brings the story of the viewer in a little bit more and we can share that. So, anyway, that is a, I think, a reflection that has come as a part of all of this trying to break through the blocks. It brought me to a different place in art that I probably wouldn't have come to if I had not been forced was just kind of health issues to start contemplating things.
Speaker 1:So are you able to look at this experience in a positive way now, then I know you're going to say yes, because we talked, didn't we, before, about the Buddhist way of thinking that if someone really hurts you in your life, someone who you absolutely would never have imagined and you, you know, you really had a huge relationship with them it could be the worst betrayal. That would be the worst betrayal because it's someone that you might be loved and the the Buddhist would say that is the jewel in the crown, that's a treat for you it's the most precious jewel on earth because they are the teacher.
Speaker 2:If you didn't have that person that was cruel to you, you wouldn't be able to practice patience and kindness and generosity, because you didn't need to if things are too easy. And so yeah, you're right, I hadn't even thought about that. That parallel between you know the precious jewel of a person who challenges you, particularly someone you've put a lot of faith in, as you should be so grateful for them because they are your teacher. You get to practice with them what you know, what it means to transcend that, um, that feeling of wanting to fight back or or whatever. And I hadn't equated that to the precious jewel of illness or sickness or a challenge, a physical challenge that you know it may be. It can be a gift that forced me to to learn from it as a teacher. So that's really insightful, that's a really nice reading.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that it's really interesting, emily, because I I'm in the same position at the moment, going through exactly what you're going through thinking with the Breaking the Blocks account and with Instagram particularly. You know, like today, I just did a reel where I just sat in my garden and I contemplated what it's like to sit in peace and quiet and how our minds want us to keep doing things instead of just sitting there in peace and quiet. And I just talked for a minute and a half and when I watched, I thought does anybody care about this? I'm not making some deep and meaningful statement.
Speaker 1:I'm not, you know, doing one of these reels where, you see, where someone quotes a Chinese proverb and it, you know it changes the world. I'm just literally going does anybody else sit in their garden and after 10 minutes, go? I must do this, I must do that, I must do this why and you know I've had some great little replies to that reel today people went yeah, I do this. People they like that simple connection. Sometimes. They don't need to be preached out, they don't need to see something. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with political statements or quilts or things that make you gasp or shocked brilliant.
Speaker 1:But there's also a room we do, but there's also room for humor and for something that just makes you feel joyful from a really, as you say, perhaps a memory. It reminds me of russell barrett when he does his quilts and uses recycled fabrics, and in a class recently he, he did this bero man flower man fabric and I said, oh, that just reminds me of my grandma and the bero flower, because she used to cook with me. And he said isn't that fantastic that from a piece of fabric you can have this memory? So you're doing the same thing, and that's, I don't know what it is about your pieces that makes me, uh, have feelings like this, but I certainly have a feeling of joy when I look at them, and that is as valid as having a feeling of surprise, shock, horror, joy. It's the same, it's equivalent.
Speaker 1:Thank you, oh, bless you. No, it's true, but I'm intrigued by this pressure that I'm sensing that you put on yourself to be relevant, because you've said a few times, like with the tools, it's a cheat's way, now it's not legit, it's not a real handmade piece. And then you've said well, that wasn't a real artist statement that I made and my things are not as legitimate as the political quilts. Now you're changing your views on that, but where did that come from? Where did that real inner, almost I'm not good enough feeling come from?
Speaker 2:Oh, where does that come from? I don't know. I think we all feel it right. Do you feel it? I don't know? Yeah, oh, it's all I'm sure like, is it just the shared human suffering that we're all past the, the illusions of us trying to like, define who is Emily? Emily is this person, she's a solid thing, and label it she's an artist and she's this and um, you know, I, I don't, I don't know, but I think that we all have it in common.
Speaker 2:I think we all suffer from that same affliction and I think that there's freedom in both recognizing that we all, we all do it and I don't know where the compulsion comes from. I might I don't feel my parents like I won't sit in like a psych term, like what did my mom, what did my mom do to me as a kid that made me feel so like type A compulsive need to achieve? I don't think she did anything. I don't think anyone had particularly unrealistic expectations. I don't know. Is it something in human nature that we feel like we need to define who we are and and stake a claim and say I am this person, know me as this? I'm not sure, but I am sure that there is freedom in letting that go yes, well, that's what we're saying earlier.
Speaker 1:Wasn't it about letting go? Um, who we once were to become, who we need to be, and and I think that changes throughout our lives. It's interesting that our bodies are mostly made up of water, and if you think about water, water swooshes everywhere, it's just fluid, and yet we all try to become like concrete, almost.
Speaker 2:And it's like, no, we're made of water, not concrete.
Speaker 1:So our opinions change, we change. I saw this great thing on Instagram the other day and this is related to a relationship, so it's not exactly what we're talking about, but I thought that relates to every relationship we have. It was one of these guru people, but he said that when people fantasize about their ex from five years ago and they go, oh, we would have been so great together right now if it had worked out right now. And he said you don't even know who that person is right now because it was five years ago. And I thought that is so true, isn't it that we all are constantly changing and evolving and if we fight that change and evolving, we get stuck. Um, we get stuck, but it is hard, it is hard to let go of, uh, of the old versions of you, I think. So, yeah, you, you, you know you. You obviously got that great feedback when you'd entered into the, the quilt con.
Speaker 1:So how are you progressing now in your journey then? Because obviously you're getting a little bit better physically. That's improving, which is great to hear. How are you now progressing through then? Are you now, is there a bit of it's going? Oh, maybe we can start picking up speed now. Maybe we can start doing more things now, or are you still in the lane of? No, actually, I quite like it, the shortcuts I'm taking, the way I'm making things, the new way of looking at it. Where are you in that journey?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am still kind of, both physically and mentally, in the kind of the space of it's just brief seconds of practice, of doing, and it's not the immersive sessions of flow, and I think that that's okay. I've recently started thinking about. You know, in meditation you meditate for, let's say, you're just, you're a beginner meditator and you meditate for 15 minutes. 15 minutes that's all you do, and but it's not. It's not about the relaxation you feel in that 15 minutes. You are training your mind to have a certain state so that when you go out in the world and someone pisses you off or does something rude to you or whatever, that your brain's immediate action is not anger, frustration, irritation, impatience, that your brain might go to somewhere else. It might be able to react in a better way. They would help you, they would help that person that is frustrating you. So that 15 minutes is intense training and it is valuable to you, it has health benefits, it has benefits to the people around you. And so I am trying to look at because I still am in that kind of space with quilting, just limitation wise a short span of time that is productive to me, has some type of healing property to me. I think it reminds me of how it feels to accomplish something too accomplishable, to have a little bit of energy. It gives me some momentum throughout the day. That is like enough of a spark, I think, to kind of keep me going through my day job, through getting the kids to bed, through cooking dinner, and it's not in like a mind over matter way.
Speaker 2:I will say that because I think there's a lot of stuff with, like you're saying, with mental illness or with conditions that are chronic, where people like just snap out of it, like if you're tired you probably need to exercise more, you probably just need to like get your endorphins up and go for a run. Like, oh you're sad, just be happy, go outside and get some sunshine and be happy, Force yourself. So I'm not saying that the 15 minutes teaches me how to just push through it. It is something else. It's something else.
Speaker 2:It is a subconscious feeling of, I think it's of confidence, Like I can. I remember how it's like to get a little bit done and it does add up. It in the end it adds up after enough time to like a beautiful quilt or a piece of art and I think in the day day, 15 really quality minutes with your kids here and then there. It adds up to a very quality relationship with them. Or 15 minutes, like what you can do in those small amounts of time it adds up and so I think it is a teaching process and so I'm okay with that being. That's the pace now and that's okay.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great bit of advice. Actually, I think it's quality over quantity, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I know what you're saying about a flow state and I know a lot of artists do that, and I do that with editing. I can start editing in six hours. I'm still sat here and my husband says you really need to get off that chair.
Speaker 1:But, sometimes I'm just like. I'm just like, I'm just in the flow, exactly, and it's a great feeling. It is, yeah, it is a great feeling. But there are days when I want to do that and I can't because my brain is saying you need to go and lie down because you're going to get a migraine. But I think that's great advice that you gave there. Quality over quantity, like 15 minutes for kids, 15 minutes of real quality time, focus, use that time. So, once again, that's another jewel from this illness, isn't it that you're not able to just keep going for hours. You have to focus, but that's a really good thing. What's the change from the old Emily to this Emily?
Speaker 2:What is important to you? I don't know that. I've even articulated that to myself. I wish I could say I've had some kind of profound epiphany and I've reached enlightenment. And I, you know, I know I know the purpose of life and what's beyond all of this world, but I'm not there yet. So I think what's important is just to kind of keep learning and keep growing and keep meeting people like you, rachel, that allow us to explore this and learning from them. Learning from Judith and the Quilt Guild, learning, just learning from other people, because I don't know what's important, I don't know what's the thesis of it all, but I do know there's a lot to be learned and there's a lot of people to learn from, and the learning has brought me joy and peace in many ways. So just keep going, keep going down the path, keep learning, um, and we'll see what we discover. I haven't found the discovery yet, but but I'm doing a lot better, so it's I think it's the right direction.
Speaker 1:You reminded me of the great oh. This is a very heavy, heavy quote, heavy quote. Now, you're prepared for this. It's from the Polar Express. Have you seen the Polar Express? And I know I'm paraphrasing, but it's the line at the end where he says to the boy it's not about where the train's going, it's that you get on. That's the important bit. And that's so true. It is, and, as you were just saying there, you don't know yet, but you just keep going and keep learning and it's about just keeping fluid, which is very much like the quilting, isn't it? Fluid lines, fluid curves, fluidity of work. So do you think there are any more? I mean, you just said there that you're constantly learning, but do you think there's anything that's still a block for you? Is there anything that you know that you haven't quite tackled yet that is sitting in there, that you think that's still something I've got to come to terms with? Mine is using less filters.
Speaker 2:You and me on like social media.
Speaker 1:Seriously, some time ago I was talking to someone I knew and I was in a very different place in my life. This is five, six years ago and this person that I knew said to me you remind me of Isabella Rossellini, and a hairdresser had said this to me years and years and years ago, and I was like oh, and I said flippantly the young one or the older version? And he said the young one. He said not the monster she is now.
Speaker 1:I know Now. Now I sit there and I think about that comment and I think that's horrible. What a horrible thing to say. And actually what I love about Isabella Rossellini is the fact that she hasn't done a single thing to her face. She's on her instagram in full sunlight, going look at my chickens. They're so beautiful, they give me joy. And I look at her and go, wow, you are an incredibly beautiful person inside and outside. You are still magnificent. I look at your eyes they're still those with those glinty eyes.
Speaker 1:In real life I am happy with that woman standing in the bright sunlight looking at chickens and people in my real life. Look at me and probably go. The age is showing in your face.
Speaker 2:Love, I don't care, no, because in real life we're all in real life. It's all like you look around, everyone's in real life, we're all the same. But then, when you scroll, you're scared that everyone has their filter and then you're the one that's gonna pop up like what? What's the immediate comparison? I know when I know, when I first started being on video in my Instagram post that took me a long time to be willing to do that and, um, I was scared like what if someone, someone that I went to junior high with, back in Spokane, washington? What if they see it? What if this person who I haven't spoke to in 30 years and I barely knew, sees it Like? That's who I'm worried about. It's like I don't know.
Speaker 1:I do find it fascinating that hurdle, why we are all so bothered about other people, which we touched on earlier, weren't we? We all think people are looking at us and judging us. But if they're judging us, well, they shouldn't be in our lives anyway. And who wants to be around that anyway? So, yeah, it's interesting. But so what did I ask you? I can't remember the blocks to still overcome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I, but so what did I ask you? I can't remember the blocks to still overcome. Yeah, I mean, I would say the things I. There's two things.
Speaker 2:And it's like comparison. Like you're saying, I compare my work to other people's a lot and I'm so. So I'm such a fangirl so many people and I'll be like gosh, her stuff is so cool. Maybe I should start making stuff like that instead. And so just wanting to like, adopt other people's visions because I'm like that's way better than mine, that's so cool, she's doing it right. Her photography is way better. I, it needs to look like that, it needs to. I need to do something more like that, cause that's what people like.
Speaker 2:So I think a compulsion just to compare the work product to other people. And then I do think that I need to have a little more grit and stick-to-itiveness, because I am very quick to throw things away. If I am halfway into a project and I'm like this is not worth my time and I think that's become a little bit worse now that I have limited bandwidth and limited energy to finish it I'm quick to say I hate this, I don't care, I'm throwing it away or I'm going to chop it up, and now it's not. Until you force yourself to get to the end, you will surprise yourself and say, oh, that looks pretty good. I didn't think that was going to come out good. I actually really love that. That's one of my favorite things I've made, and I often don't force myself to get past the ugly middle of a project because I think it's not worth my time. This is garbage, let's start over. But you have to go through parts that don't look good, and so I'm working on that.
Speaker 2:I'm working on forcing myself to finish projects because they often turn out actually a lot better than you think, and you have, you have to go through that that's learning patience, though, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I think that's patience, it is that's that's something that.
Speaker 1:I've I've had to really learn in my life is patience. But you know it's like all this stuff behind me here. I have done that so many times when I've been doing my tea time tutorial with Gary and I look at his and he's such a great artist that you know, even after two minutes his looks amazing and mine looks like a three-year-old. And then I go and I want to throw it away. But the big thing I've learned is that by the end I'm quite happy with it but it's yeah, the middle.
Speaker 1:You do look at it sometimes and go what have I just done? But you know, I think that that's the same in our journeys as human beings, emily, because as we go through our transitions, you can quite often get into the middle of the transition. You've half left the other person that you were, you're still finding the new person, and you're now in the middle and you feel like, oh, I'm just going to check it all the way, I'm going to go back to where I was, because at least I knew what that person was, but you can't. You can't do that. So I think that is a skill in life to to learn, isn't it to learn that patience with ourselves and see things through to the end you know, I had a creative.
Speaker 2:She was like a creative writing teacher, but she also taught humanities, and there were a lot of people in this creative writing class that were like, but I'm not creative, I'm not artistic, I'm not creative. And she was like you know what creativity is? It's not being artistic and it's not being like imaginative. Creativity is just making connections. That is, if you are able to make connections, that's what is. That's creativity. And I just wanted to say that to you, because you are so able to make connections to bring the person to the idea or the you know the process of the art, to your journey as a person. I find that very interesting about you, Rachel, and I think that is what I was taught is pure creativity, and I see you making connections and I'm like that's what she meant. That's what she meant is it is people who are creative geniuses are actually connection geniuses.
Speaker 1:Interesting Okay.
Speaker 2:So I'm a genius. Well, this has been a fantastic interview. Thank you so much in conclusion.
Speaker 1:In conclusion, I am a creative genius no, I tell you, one thing that I've always been strong with, though, is using imagery to portray a point, like, for example, my friend who had the stroke, and she said you know, my dad used to say to me you know, this is what she said. But he used to say to her you know, you're never going to be the prettiest girl in the room, but you can be the smartest because you're clever. Now, the thing is that she did used to hang on to that, so she made sure that she read things, and she did get this amazing general knowledge. When she had her stroke, she lost so much of that general knowledge and she said now I suddenly feel like I'm not the prettiest in the room, and now I'm not the smartest. Who am I the prettiest in the room? And now I'm not the smartest, who am I? And I just said to her look, this is what it's like.
Speaker 1:Okay, you have gone into a room and the filing cabinets are empty. They're empty, but the great thing is, now you can start putting new things in those filing cabinets, and those filing cabinets will once again become full. So it doesn't matter that they're emptied. You know, maybe there was a fire, something happened. You lost all of your stuff in the filing cabinets but now you can start refilling them. Because you were able to do that before, you can do that again. And she was like, oh, that is so good, I'm going to visualize my brain as filing cabinets, I'm going to start filling them. And I said, there you go.
Speaker 1:And I've always been able to sort of you know to do that. I think that's a good way sometimes to look at things in life is to try and picture it. You know, use it as pictures, yeah, but thank you for saying that. That's very kind of you and I do. I just, I am just fascinated by connection in general. I just I am. I am just fascinated by connection in general. I think if we can connect to others and we can be ourselves and we can be genuine in that connection, we're in a much better place for it, because we're all just learning from each other. Would you like to say anything else about creativity and what it's done for you? I mean, we've talked a lot about what it's done, but is there anything else that creativity and what it's done for you and how it's helped you to overcome the blocks, and maybe advice for other people who are going through anything similar yeah, I think to creativity as we've described it.
Speaker 2:It has helped me overcome the blocks, but I think my creativity is more the stereotypical creativity.
Speaker 2:It is, you know, it's artistic pursuits, and so I would advise people to expand their definition of creativity. It doesn't mean art. I'm not saying to overcome things, you need to do art or music or something we consider creative. I think you know we think about if creativity is about making connections. Could they be human connections, could they be? You know? I think think about things that just allow you to feel something or allow you to express something, processes, I don't know. I think finding joy and finding ways to overcome things creatively is in everyone. It's not just an art path. So I guess I would just tell people to think about connections and visualizations, like you have, and things that they like to do, and anything can be done creatively, um, and I think, yeah, it will help you yeah, well, it's good to see that you're recovering and coming back into the four.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm determined to get you to teach class. That's the next thing, although I know that would be a stretch um, I know I told you I'm the eternal students.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but we'll see. We'll see, yeah.
Speaker 1:And well, on a final note, a final point do you have a motto? I always ask people if they have a motto in life. I mean one. I've got one for you, actually, just in case you didn't listen.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I would like that Cause. I don't know if I have one.
Speaker 1:This is a really good one for you, particularly Emily. And it was Tim Foss who was my previous guest that I've interviewed, and he's a great artist and he's got a friend who's a choreographer and she was saying to him in a very sort of challenging time he was having. She said I don't know if she'd heard this from somebody else, but she said my motto in life is just a few words. My motto in life is just a few words limitations are possibilities. And she said if you imagine, as a dancer, you had your arm strapped behind your back while you've lost one of your limbs to dance with, but that means that now you have to look at how your other arm can move in a more encapsulated way or how your legs could become more of the uh, more of a movement. So actually, this limitation are loads of possibilities and I think that is so true in our lives.
Speaker 1:I started my company because I was ceremoniously taken into a room and told we don't want you anymore and I lost my job, my income, everything. I thought I was going in to be given more shifts and instead I was told to leave. Yeah, so that was a big limitation on everything. But my goodness me look at what happened. There were now huge possibilities. I was never going to leave that job because it paid too well, even though my soul felt like it was shriveling up and dying. I knew I couldn't leave the money. I would have left eventually. Something would have clicked, but it was taking me too long.
Speaker 1:So suddenly there were possibilities in front of me. So I think that's a great one for you, because you've had limitations placed on you, but now, yeah, now you have great possibilities to change, to change and maybe change that mindset. Because it is interesting, I think the universe puts things in our way. It is interesting, I think the universe puts things in our way. And I think maybe you were too hard on yourself or, you know, too analytical, too disapproving of yourself, and so the universe said okay, we're going to throw some serious stuff at you now. So you're going to have to start looking at this and you have, you have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a friend, this, okay. I thought of a motto similar to that, one that I think I do it with me. It's a friend of mine who's an art director, jake. He taught this drawing class once and he's like, okay, everyone have a white piece of paper. And then he's like, okay, crumple it up, scribble it on it, rough it up Okay, now we can start. And so I think rough it up, now we can start is kind of my motto, because he was talking about the paralysis of a perfect white piece of paper and nothing you draw is going to look good and nothing you draw is going to feel good, and so you can't just do it until you've roughed up the paper. And then now it's not like really that precious piece of paper, now you can draw on it and now you can create art. And I think that that's true in life too. Just rough it up, okay, now you can start.
Speaker 1:you know, have things go wrong and learn from it, and now you can move forward that's a brilliant motto and, like you say so, true for life as well, and I've I've had that one when I've been working with Gary on the tea time tutorials. He's done the same thing. We've had a piece of paper in front of us and he's gone. Can you just get a pen and scribble on it? And I've gone. What? And he's just gone, do a scribble. And I've done the scribble and he's gone right now we can start, yeah, because otherwise it's like oh no. So that's so good.
Speaker 1:Rough it up and start again and that's slightly different, but that's a famous song, I don't know, yeah, anyway. Uh, well, emily, I think it's, you know it's. It's great to see you recovering. It's great to have chats like this to give people hope. Um, because there will be people out there who are experiencing chronic fatigue, um, and may feel the same. Oh, but there are people out there who have had a heart attack. There are people out there who have broken their legs. I'm just tired. No, these are things our bodies tell us when there's a problem. So if that's the problem, then you have to stop accepting it and dealing with it, and what's the word? Notittling it? You have to go. Okay, this is, this is my issue. It doesn't matter what anybody else's issues are. This is mine and this is really affecting me. Vertigo, by the way, one of the worst things to suffer from I really pity you for that.
Speaker 1:That's uh well, not pity, that's a terrible word, but I no, you should pity me.
Speaker 2:You should pity, me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I should pity you because I've had it, oh, and it's like so I'm on a roller coaster constantly, so you feel sick, don't you?
Speaker 2:it's like I've rolled over in bed and sometimes oh, you're spinning around and you're going.
Speaker 1:What's happening?
Speaker 2:I didn't get a drink and party to have it. It's like you're like the next day, but for no fun. I got no fun for it and I just get the terrible, dizzy, nauseous hangover maybe that's, maybe that's the key.
Speaker 1:Maybe you should just get really really drunk and then.
Speaker 2:I know I'll be like. Well, at least I enjoyed it oh well, thank you so much.
Speaker 1:It's been an absolute pleasure and I think you probably will have provided some inspiration, but definitely some interesting insights in there. So you go away and do your homework now on yourself, emily.
Speaker 2:I will thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Other people will thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Just before you go, lovely listener, can I ask you a favour if you have a friend who you think would enjoy listening to this podcast, would you mind please telling them about it?
Speaker 1:It helps me to spread the word and you never know, they might get a life lesson out of it or, at the very least, just have a lovely 40 minutes of relaxing time for themselves. The second thing to say is that, if you have enjoyed this, it would really help me if you would give me a little quick like or a comment, especially if you're listening on one of the podcast platforms. It just means that when anybody lands on the page, they can see that people have reviewed it, they've liked it, enjoyed it and got something out of it. So if you wouldn't mind leaving me a review, that would be amazing. And the final thing to say is that if you are a business and you're thinking how do I get my message out there, well, you could do it on this podcast. All you have to do is reach out to me, rachel, at breakingtheblockscom. The details are below in the box. Thank you so much to everybody for listening and enjoying and saying the lovely things that you're saying.
