You don't have to see the whole staircase, just the next step.

Sarah Spencer takes us on a journey of transformation, from corporate employee to artist, radio host, and community activist while navigating major life transitions and personal growth.

• Moving from Canada to Chicago represents a complete life reset
• Transitioning from property appraiser to artist required sitting with uncomfortable feelings of identity loss
• Meeting her husband at Burning Man led to love, marriage, and eventually motherhood
• Postpartum anxiety pushed her toward therapy, which became a transformative force
• Overcoming extreme fear of public speaking by trying stand-up comedy
• Using privilege for community good rather than feeling guilt
• Creating art as therapy during emotionally challenging times
• Finding your authentic voice and accepting that not everyone will appreciate it
• Learning to face fears rather than avoid them—bravery isn't absence of fear but acting despite it
• Developing the mantra: "I am a spirit having a human experience"

Find Sarah's art on Instagram @IOtheAlien and join her for the upcoming Picture This VIP Club at CraftyMonkies starting in June 2025.

Chapters

• 0:00 Meeting Sarah Spencer: Artist and Philosopher
• 10:12 From Corporate Life to Creative Freedom
• 19:55 Embracing Uncertainty and Finding Purpose
• 31:46 Overcoming Postpartum Anxiety with Therapy
• 43:15 Conquering Stage Fright Through Comedy
• 54:36 Using Privilege for Good and Finding Your Voice
• 1:06:54 Facing Fears and Being Authentically You
• 1:27:12 Searching for Meaning and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

This is Breaking the Blocks and I'm your host, rachel Pierman.

Speaker 2: 0:04

I feel like the most successful people, at least from my observation, are able to sit in that and not make decisions based on fear or like grabbing on desperately to some old idea of who they were or what they think they need.

Speaker 1: 0:23

This week I had the pleasure of interviewing Sarah Spencer. She is an amazing artist, but also a bit of a philosopher, I think as well. She's one of those really cool girls that you probably always wanted to be when you're at school and never quite managed to be, but she hasn't got any kind of arrogance about it. She's just a really relaxed person who has learned a lot of lessons along the way and overcome some difficulties in her life, which, of course, is what this podcast is about breaking the blocks. Now, this is quite a long episode, but there are no trigger warnings here because, unlike other episodes where we've tackled some very difficult issues, there aren't any in this episode. But what we do have is a really wonderful, life-affirming conversation where we talk about the lessons we've learned, what's still to be learned, therapy, how it can help you, how you get over your fear of public speaking by standing on a stage and being a comedian. That's quite astounding. It's a really lovely interview. So if you want to pop it on in the background to whatever you're doing, I think you might find some interesting insights and hopefully help you to overcome some of your own blocks in your life.

Speaker 1: 1:42

Well, today, lovely listener, I have got the coolest lady that I know she is. She's one of those cool girls, you know, the ones that you always wanted to be. Well, I did, I always wanted to be the cool girl. It is Sarah Spencer. Hello, welcome to the studio, sarah Spencer.

Speaker 2: 1:58

Thank you so much. I'm so honored to be here. Thanks for chatting with me.

Speaker 1: 2:02

Oh no, you are more than welcome, my lovely, and your handle, your Instagram handle, because people always say to me can you please tell us where we can find your guests? I put it in the description box, but if anybody is listening, it is I O the Alien.

Speaker 2: 2:15

I O the Alien that's me.

Speaker 1: 2:17

I O literally I and an? O the Alien. So we're going to come to that in a second, sarah, because I want to know what that's all about actually I don't know what you've told me, but I think our guests need to hear. But yeah, sarah, it is lovely to have you here and obviously you and I are crossing paths now because we're working together on the old Crafty Monkeys front, which is great. So good to have you know, come across you through Carl Brown, who is on this show.

Speaker 2: 2:41

Thank you you, Carl, for that.

Speaker 1: 2:43

Thank you, carl. And he said to me you have to work with this girl called Sarah. And I said Okay, why? And he said she is so cool, her work is fantastic, she is going to blow up and next year she's going to be everywhere and good things do seem to be happening for you. But I certainly agree with all the things that he said.

Speaker 1: 3:04

As I just said there, Sarah, yes, your work is really cool. You kind of do these amazing pop art portraits. I would call them really colourful and just so very. They remind me very much of the Andy Warhol stuff. You know that kind of that kind of way, but with your own unique spin. But you yourself, you just come across as this really cool laid-back character is that the real Sarah Spencer?

Speaker 2: 3:43

I mean, I'm pretty I would. I I feel very grateful to be able to do what I do. I feel I draw inspiration from so many different things that I come across in my life. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just like I said, I'm grateful to be able to do what I do and so that gives me sort of a. I'm coming into each day with sort of joy and gratitude. I spent so much of my life, my younger years, working corporate office jobs, really not resonating with how I spent my time, and by the time I came home from work at the end of the day I was so bagged from sort of what felt like selling my soul in the corporate world. So now that I've sort of my life has done a 180 in so many ways, I really do have that gratitude that I mentioned. It's it's, yeah, I'm just happy I get to do what I do. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:43

And I do think, sarah, that you mentioned a really key word there gratitude. And I really believe that if you live in gratitude and you're so grateful for what you have you know not always wanting the next thing that great things come to you. I really do believe that things kind of work out somehow and so and I think that's what's happening to you, but I'm intrigued. So you say that you used to work in the corporate sector. So how did that change then? Because a lot of people do get stuck in the corporate sector. Yes, there are people who love their jobs I'm not dissing the corporate sector, before you know, people do but there are some people who get stuck and they don't want to be there, and maybe they are creative or artistic or they just want to do something else and they can't do it. So what made you make that leap? Was there a particular day, a moment? Did something push you? What happened?

Speaker 2: 5:34

Well, sort of for me it was life events that took place that made me in my case. I moved to a new country. So I was born and raised in Canada, spent most of my life in Vancouver and I spent the last decade of sort of my corporate life. I was working for the British Columbia government as a property appraiser and one summer my best friend invited me to Burning man and she had an extra ticket and she said come on, sarah, let's, let's go to this. And to be quite frank, I wasn't actually I wasn't 100 percent into the idea, but you know, I thought it would be a fun girls trip.

Speaker 2: 6:15

So we went down and I ended up meeting my now husband there and he lived in Chicago and so we dated, we did a long distance thing for a few years and then finally we kind of had to come to that place where I was like okay, we're in our thirties, what's happening here? Like somebody going to move or or, or what's going on? And so I decided to move to Chicago and sort of with that move was also a total life reset. And people would ask me are you going to, are going to keep doing appraisal here? And in my heart it was. It was like I really don't want to. I want to take this opportunity to do something different. And one thing led to another, and I found myself in the arts.

Speaker 1: 7:03

So what? What did you do then? So what, what did you actually go and do?

Speaker 2: 7:09

More life events happened. So I moved to Chicago, we got married and very shortly thereafter I became pregnant with our son, and so it was. There was this weird limbo time because I was going through American immigration where I was allowed to be in the country. I had to be in the country, actually, for a period. I wasn't allowed to leave, but I wasn't allowed to work, or at least not work a paid job and so I started volunteering and that's what brought me to a local radio station, and I had no radio experience whatsoever. But the station's director is this woman who, it just so happened, was very passionate about getting more women into broadcasting.

Speaker 1: 7:59

Yay so.

Speaker 2: 7:59

I said to her look, I've got so much time right now, I will do anything you want. Please give me something to do. And so I ended up doing having a radio show, which I'm still doing, and spending a lot of time volunteering in the back end of the station. I also started taking art classes and now I was always an artistic kid. But sort of all of a sudden, having that time and energy for it, I fell in love with the arts and I started teaching at a local art school here in Chicago. So it was sort of like a. It was a. Really. It felt like fate opening up for me, where one thing sort of led to another, led to another, and it's still unfolding, but that's really the ball that got things rolling for me.

Speaker 1: 8:51

Yeah, what's the name of the station, by the way, just in case anybody is actually in Chicago and they want to listen.

Speaker 2: 8:56

Yes, it's Chirp Radio 107.1 FM Chicago or chirpradioorg. We broadcast online as well. I've got listeners from Europe and in Asia and all over the place.

Speaker 1: 9:08

Yeah Well, you have got a fabulous radio voice. I have to tell you I'm just glad you said that.

Speaker 2: 9:15

I'm from Chicago.

Speaker 1: 9:18

You know, one thing that is striking me so far, sarah, is, as you said, you know you've got the ball rolling and things kind of fell into place, and they're still falling into place for you, which, as we said, you practice gratitude. Have you always been this way, though, in your life? Were you always just a happy-go-lucky kid? Were you always kind of feeling like things were working out for you, or has that kind of changed and evolved for you as well?

Speaker 2: 9:41

I will say at my core, even when the world feels out of control and really crazy, especially at this time, in history for me.

Speaker 2: 9:53

I do have this core optimism, and I've had that my whole life. I don't know really where it comes from, even though I always had this greater sense and this greater trust that things would work out in some way. I certainly went through periods of my life where I felt I didn't know what I was here for, so to speak. And I remember for the longest time, especially when I was working in that corporate world, it would be something that I thought about every day, where it's like you know, my job is okay, I didn't hate it, I loved my colleagues, I always loved interacting with people, but something deep down was like this is not it, this is not it for you.

Speaker 2: 10:44

Yeah, you're good at your job, but you can do more. But I didn't know what that was, and so it was a struggle for a long time because I felt like like, can't somebody just beam some answer into my head? It felt like I was really in a stuck place. All that being said, you know, when I was quiet and was able to sort of get in touch with the inner voice, I just had this sense that, yeah, things, there was a greater purpose to my life and to trust in that. So I think even now I always sort of think to myself you don't have to see the whole staircase, just the next step. And I'm sure I'm stealing that from somebody else, but that metaphor really resonated with me, where it's like okay, just whatever I'm working on right now is giving me the tools to take the next step.

Speaker 1: 11:52

But you know, I think one really important word that you use there and then and then I was thinking something in my head and then you kind of agreed with what I was thinking because of what you said is that you would sit there. Uh, you'd want the answers to be beamed to you, but already that means that you were kind of asking for that higher power. You were wanting to listen to your intuition. You were listening to your intuition because you were going come on, I'm searching for answers here. You weren't kind of railing against things, as you said. You like your job in some respects. You just felt like there was a bigger purpose. But that was something within you that was kind of wakening up and you were listening and that is so important. And you know, that's something that a lot of us don't do. That's a skill that I've only just learned is patience. I remember when I started Crafty Monkeys and my husband said are you going to stick at this this time? And I was really offended and I said to him what do you mean?

Speaker 1: 12:48

and he said because you're like a rocket. He said you, you light up the sky like a firework. And I was like, oh, thank you. And then he went, and then you fizzle out and you give up you give up.

Speaker 1: 13:00

It's not that you don't have the you know the capacity to carry on, but you give up. And I said you give up on things, and you know what? That was my biggest lesson. I didn't like hearing it, but he was right. He was right. And the thing with the business is five years now, there's no sign of it disappearing. There are hard times, there are moments when I feel like shutting it down and going and buying a tiny beach, or in Barbados, somewhere on a beach that no one lives on and just kind of like you know, there are times, but I've learned that patience.

Speaker 2: 13:33

I've learned that if you're in a sticky moment, just sit in it, but be open and to listen to your intuition, and that's something that you've certainly been doing, I think yeah, it's funny what you just mentioned, sort of having this idea of having lots of different interests and you sort of pursue one wholeheartedly and then one day you it's not really, it's not really doing it for you anymore, so you shift into something else and that it's not really doing it for you anymore. So you shift into something else. And that totally describes who I was and still am to a certain extent. I remember as a kid I did, you know, my parents would put me in various activities, whether it was dancing or different art classes, or I remember taking, you know, woodworking and basketball and this and that and lots. I played so many different musical instruments and I would keep changing the instrument that I wanted to play. And I remember and it, it, it stuck with me and I finally, in my adulthood I've released this. But my mom would say to me Sarah, if you just stuck with one of those things, imagine where you would be.

Speaker 2: 14:46

And it affected me in a really negative way actually, because I had that self-talk that changing my interests was wrong, what I was doing was somehow wrong. And then I remember in my 30s I had a therapist where we were having this conversation and he goes, so, so what, you're interested in something new, then explore it. Like, just get rid of that, get lose the shame around it, but keep that curiosity. And now I'm in my early 40s and that curiosity that I have has really fed into my art, I think, all of those skills that I picked up from sort of going down various rabbit holes. They fed something in me and I actually trust and count on the fact that I will find more things to be curious about.

Speaker 2: 15:57

I've come to a place now where I can say, oh, I can't wait to see who I am when I'm 60, because it's going to be surprising to me and that's a great thing. You know I coming from a place where, you know, not knowing what my purpose was in life and and sort of feeling shame for not sticking with anything, to now going. You know, I trust that I'm going to be doing something really cool and I can't wait to see what that is. It's been a profound shift and I like I hope I get to live to a really ridiculously old age in a healthy body, because I think it's just it's gonna be cool, like whatever.

Speaker 2: 16:43

There's a David Bow bowie quote and I love david bowie, he's like my guiding light where he said and I'm probably gonna butcher it, but I don't know where I'm going from here, but I know it's going to be interesting, or I know it's not going to be boring or something along those lines and it's like, yeah, that's it. Um, I think it's a great place to, it's a great core belief to have.

Speaker 1: 17:06

Yeah, because it's that curiosity that's such a great word that you said there and that really is. I think the key to life is that curiosity, always wanting to learn more. I think if we get to a point where we think, well, I've learned it all, there's nothing else for me to learn now, there's nothing else for me to do, you's nothing else for me to do, you know, I've learned my lessons, I think then we've lost the plot, I think we've closed down ourselves and then that's when we nothing, no new opportunities will come to you, because and I think it's kind of an arrogance that if we sit there and say that, it's so arrogant of us to think that we've, we have just learned everything there are so many lessons to learn in this life. Yes, and and I think as well, sarah, that they often say and I really believe this that quite often things will go very wrong before they go right.

Speaker 1: 17:56

Doors have to close before new ones open. But I think the difficulty in both of those things happening either a door closing and a new one opening, or things going very wrong before they go right is that there's a gap in the middle, and that's where you have to have the faith and the trust and be thankful for what you have, be thankful for what you had and what you learned from it, so that you can then move on and be ready for the next thing to come along. I think that's the scary place and that's where maybe people start grasping for things before they're ready Because it's like, well, that door's closed, I need another door, another door in the dark going. Okay, let's decompress. What did we learn? We're going to take forwards and something will come in. I'm a firm believer in that.

Speaker 2: 18:44

Absolutely and there's so believer in that Absolutely and there's so many things that popped up in my head when you mentioned that. For one, this concept of failure I know as a child. I did pretty well in school, I was pretty gifted academically and my parents really were proud of me. They pushed for like the A, you know, the A grades and I felt, or I internalized, this desire that I needed to be perfect, or this desire to, yeah, not fail, certainly not publicly, and I actually that held me back for the longest time. I think, now that you know failure is like no one enjoys it. But I think failure is something to celebrate because you learn, or I have learned so much every time that I did something and I didn't work out In big ways and in small ways. So now that my son is five, at this point, like I, you know, if he fails at something, we kind of celebrate it. I remember reading something I don't know if it was an artist or a writer, who was, but there was this idea she had. She had a goal that in a year she had to fail a hundred times and every time she failed she would like write it down. I was like, okay, check that one's done, check or get getting the rejection letters, for example. It was a good thing for her because it meant she was pushing. So there's yeah, there's that aspect. And then another thing that popped up in my head when you were talking was this idea of that sort of liminal space where a door is shut and you're waiting for that other one to open, and that's a profound discomfort.

Speaker 2: 20:37

When I first moved to Chicago from Vancouver, you know, I had a wonderful, tight community of friends in Vancouver. I had, you know, I was dancing, I was doing comedy, I had these groups, these circles that I moved in. I was like that person. I felt like and it's a fairly small city compared to Chicago, but I felt like I could walk down the street and run into someone that I knew. So I felt very connected and grounded there and also through my work and all of those things.

Speaker 2: 21:07

And then I moved to Chicago and it felt like all of that was taken away and it felt like I didn't know how to define myself without those external pieces and it was tremendously uncomfortable. It took me a few years actually to really find my footing and then becoming a mother, and there's this whole other new things being added on. But I'm like, who is Sarah, who am I, at my core, and so I think you know it's not easy, but sitting in that tough time where you don't have, or like grabbing on desperately to some old idea of who they were or or what they think they need, there are profound lessons to be learned in that really uncomfortable space yeah, beautifully said I.

Speaker 1: 22:20

I absolutely agree with you, and I think what happens is, when you are in that really uncomfortable space, you want to escape it, so then you seek the validations, the distractions to get you out of that, and that only prolongs your agony. Because while ever you are seeking things, while ever you're searching out pleasure distractions, you're addicted to something you're constantly looking, looking, looking. It's like a battery that's wearing out because you're never replenishing it. You're just constantly, you know, and whenever you're looking for all those things, eventually you're going to run out.

Speaker 2: 23:00

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:00

You're going to run out of people. You're going to run out of objects to buy of people to get the validation from of. You are going to run out, run out of money, run out of friendships, because you're not giving anything back. Yeah, because you're pretty empty, because you haven't found yourself. In order to give, you have to find yourself, don't? You have to, as you say, you have to find out who you are and sit in that that darkness.

Speaker 1: 23:29

I've been there and it is tough and it is frightening and, as you say something you said there about fear, fear is what drives you to seek, to seek, to seek, because it's so uncomfortable yeah you. You have to overcome that fear.

Speaker 2: 23:46

Yes.

Speaker 1: 23:46

And just stop.

Speaker 2: 23:48

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:49

Just sit.

Speaker 2: 23:50

And not the numbing, like the numbing yourself out. I know I mean that drives so many addictive behaviors, whether it's substance abuse, but also I remember there was a period in my life where and this was back in Vancouver right where I got addicted, and it sounds really weird, but I was addicted to meditation. Yeah, but for me it was a form of escapism. It was like, oh, I can connect to some cosmos and you know, I would hear these stories of these people that have their guides, that they talk to, and I'm like, well, why am I not hearing voices? If I just meditate harder, then maybe, you know, these magical beings will show up for me.

Speaker 2: 24:35

And, um, and really I was a form of escapism. So like, yeah, whether, like I said it could, whether it's substance abuse, and like, seeking that sort of sensory stimulation or numbness, and ultimately it's numbness that comes out of that. Or, yeah, going down these things that are healthy but too much, too rigid, where there's no room left for that discomfort You're trying to. It's still trying to numb away that dis, dis ease, um, so it's yeah, I mean, it's easier said than done getting through those periods, but, um, yeah, it's definitely important part of the human experience but I think one of the keys is to realizing when you're going down that path and it's really interesting.

Speaker 1: 25:32

You say there about the meditation and there's actually a lot of toxic spirituality around. I think we've become so much more aware now on this planet about awakening, spiritual awakenings, finding ourselves, listening to our souls, and there is so much out there now than there used to be. But, as you say, sometimes you can fall down that rabbit hole of searching for that. You know that spiritual awakening, that voice that tells you what to do. Then you're searching for that and then, as you say, with the meditation, so you sit there and you light the candles and you put your you know your stones out or whatever, and you get your spot and you're. But what you're doing while you're doing that is you're distracting yourself from your pain again. It's almost like you're tidying your bedroom, you're tidying your meditation spot and then you think, right, okay, sit here for now 15 minutes, I'm doing something again. I'm doing. It's doing something. You just have to stop.

Speaker 1: 26:26

And for me, I think personally it's better to sometimes just go for a walk. Just go for a walk, just go for a walk. Don't put on your iPhone, don't put on your music. Just go for a walk and look at what's around you. Look at the birds, look at the river, look at the grass, look at the pavements, look at the cars, look at the people. Whatever it is, just go and do something like that. If you find yourself thinking I must meditate every day, I think if you tell yourself you've got to do something every day, that's a problem because that becomes an addiction in itself then you feel guilty if you don't do it.

Speaker 1: 27:00

I've missed my meditation this morning absolutely.

Speaker 2: 27:05

And actually it's funny, like, on this topic, there were, there was, there was, there was, I guess, probably six years where I was vegan and I'm not no shame on vegans. I still have a. I still, you know, have a lot of plant, plant focused meals in my week, but for me at least, it was this rigidity. Like I'm going to be, I'm going to put my, you know, spirulina powder in my smoothie and my diet was going to be on point and no animal products and you know doing the, you know an hour of meditation in a day, and I mean, who's got time for that anymore? But really it was, yeah, it was not sustainable was, yeah, it was not sustainable.

Speaker 2: 27:51

And so the real key now for me and I'm still, you know, finding my way through it is like what is sustainable for me? What does that look like? What is really healthy, where I'm not being rigid with myself, I'm being flexible, and there's no, you know, shame if I didn't do something the right way or anything like that. So I mean, it's still a journey and it shifts throughout life. Yeah, you can go too far, you can go too far in either direction, and so balance is really what I'm striving for I'm still working on it.

Speaker 1: 28:29

And that's not to sit here and both of us to say we are the absolute gurus. I've had days where I have been feeling uncomfortable it's the energies around me or it's whatever and so I pick up my phone and I think, well, I'll just check Instagram because it's my business, right? I think I'm going down a rabbit hole. Okay, I'll check my emails now, check my emails. And then I then go oh, what else? Oh, youtube, let me just have a look at YouTube, oh and. And then I feel myself just falling. And then I realize I'm distracting myself. I'm doing it, I'm looking for something. I'm looking for something on my phone to distract me from the feelings that I was having 20 minutes ago.

Speaker 1: 29:11

Let's go back to those feelings, let's put the phone down. But that's the awareness. So it's very easy to fall into those behaviors. But if you can be aware, if something inside of you says, hello, hello, hang on, look at what you're doing, look what you're doing, then that's part of the battle isn't it?

Speaker 2: 29:29

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 29:31

Well, sarah, I'm going gonna have to go back to something that you said as well earlier on, and I'm sure you must know now what I'm going to try and pull out of you, because this is breaking the blocks right, and you mentioned the t-word you said when I was talking to my therapist oh, yeah, so we need to know, because right now everybody's going.

Speaker 1: 29:51

this woman is a paragon of virtue. She's got it sorted. So, if you don't mind me asking, what was it that sent you to your therapist, if that's not too personal a question, no.

Speaker 2: 30:04

So I've worked with therapists at a few different points in my life. I went through high school as a youth, then I graduated. I very soon after moved out of my parents' home, I went into university, I worked a full-time job and went to school full-time, so it was like a lot of responsibility. And then I went right into the working world and so there was that pressure Like I had to survive, I had to pay my bills, and so I would do my jobs and think I was doing okay, but I had no hobbies at that point in my life. I knew I liked music, I knew a couple of things, but I remember, especially being in the dating world, the question I hated the most so silly and so basic, when people would say what do you do for fun? Because I felt like I didn't have an interesting answer, be like, yeah, I watch TV, I go to the movies, read books, but I didn't know who I was. And so over over the years I became depressed. I knew something was wrong, but I didn't know how to fix it. I didn't know who I was ultimately although I didn't know that at the time and so I started seeing a therapist when I was in Vancouver and over time it was helpful. I mean, I encourage everybody to get a therapist I can. It's so helpful Over time. You know I started, you know I think taking an improv class might be fun and sort of going down that, and I started learning about who I was. And then, when I moved to Chicago and became a mother, I ended up with postpartum anxiety. Became a mother, I ended up with postpartum anxiety and I just, yeah, it was.

Speaker 2: 32:01

I remember I was at this period in my life where I literally cried every day and I remember there's a lot, there's some awareness now about postpartum depression and I remember thinking, well, I couldn't possibly be that because I don't. I didn't feel sad, even though it was crying. It was. It felt to me more like like overwhelmed by love and like just big emotions. There was, knowing that I was crying every day and that everything felt so big and I couldn't. I didn't feel like I could contain it.

Speaker 2: 32:37

I remember going to see my midwife and after talking with her, she spent 45 minutes with me. Bless her I. She was like you know, it sounds like you might have some anxiety, sarah. And my husband. Bless him he. You know he's a big believer in therapy too. He sees a therapist every week, and that was always something I loved about him.

Speaker 2: 33:03

It's any anybody who has that willingness to work on themselves. I think that's just like for me looking for a partner, looking for friends. It's those, yeah, those people, yeah, that are willing to work on themselves and see, you know, see themselves for where they are right now. It's a great quality in a human. So he supported me going to see a therapist, and so I've been seeing her now for four years, more than four years, and it it's just, you know, it's been so helpful to have that person where I can just talk about all the things I'm feeling guilty about and and, uh, you know the, the ways I feel I'm deficient, or, and celebrate the joys too, like things are really great right now, um, and to have somebody that is able to have that safe space for me, have that sort of container and can also remind me of oh, this reminds me of when you went through dah dahda, and so you start noticing those patterns. It has been, and continues to be, really helpful for me.

Speaker 1: 34:20

I'm a huge believer in therapy and when I met my husband 28 years ago, we both used to push each other's buttons badly, you know he would. I used to call it throwing the lemon. He'd stand there and throw a lemon during a discussion and I'd be like, why are you throwing the lemon? It was so antagonistic and obviously it was all coming, you know, from emotions within him. He wasn't a bad person, it was like he was just getting frustrated that we weren't able to communicate somehow. But we were both wounded people and both pushing each other's buttons and we would have these huge explosions. And he said he remembers you know, I'd just go, I'm leaving, I'm never going back. And he would watch me walk off down the street in this little tartan skirt that I had, swooshing in the wind, knowing I'd be back in 25 minutes.

Speaker 2: 35:09

And.

Speaker 1: 35:09

I did come back. But you know know, we had this great big rouse but we actually went to see individually, separately the same therapist. Oh no, I don't know, but she did see both of us. I stayed the longest. I was there five years. He did a year, but I think it kind of I don't know how she did it because if I would talk about Jake she wouldn't really, she wouldn't kind of go yeah, because I know he does that whenever. But somehow she was able to kind of open. It was like marriage guidance counseling, but without the two of us together. So we were looking at ourselves and our own patterns. But she knew where the button pressing was coming from, because she was working on both of us. It was quite extraordinary.

Speaker 1: 35:54

But yeah, and then I did a lot of work on myself and I would love to have a therapist again. I think therapy is a fantastic thing but it is expensive. But I will say, if you want therapy, I mean when I had my therapist, I was cleaning toilets to get my therapy money, because I was an out-of-work actor and I did loads of jobs and I would clean. Well, it wasn't a second is the cleaning a house. So I was cleaning a house for someone, but I would clean the house knowing that I just paid for my therapy and I would sit in that therapy and value it even more because I'd worked quite hard to get that therapy lesson. So, yeah, I think obsession, I think therapy is a fantastic thing. Um, you mentioned there, though, sarah, that you would talk to your therapist about maybe things that you were guilty about or things like that, which obviously, uh, yeah, is maybe an underlying factor in the anxiety, but it's more the big emotions. What things did you feel guilty about then when you were talking to your therapist?

Speaker 2: 36:51

and this is post part, and this is after having your little boy well, I think and it's still something I'm working on the big, a big thing that I feel guilt about is my privilege. So, going back to my life in Vancouver, like, yes, I was working a government job, I was supporting a partner at the time who was doing a graduate degree and we were broke, broke broke, struggled to just put food on our table, I was too. I don't know if it was pride or if it was shame two sides of the same coin. I would have definitely qualified for the food bank, but I never. I was like, oh no, that's for, that's for people that really need it. I have a job, so I didn't feel like I really needed it. But I do remember looking on the street for coins to see if I could scrounge up enough to buy like a can of beans so I could round out a meal Like it was bad of beans. So I could round out a meal Like it was bad. And I remember, just like praying and like trusting in the goodness of the universe and saying like, if I ever get out of this situation, I promise, I promise I'm going to do like, pay it back in the world somehow, do like pay it back in the world somehow.

Speaker 2: 38:32

And then I moved to Chicago and I had like I said, it was 180 degree change. My husband works in finance and we were very secure financially. Which sort of yeah, there was that time that wasn't allowed to work due to immigration. Was that time that wasn't allowed to work due to immigration? But knowing that we were still secure and I didn't have the financial pressure anymore and I could do art classes and I had money for that, I could spend my time in this way, without I don't know like the stress I felt guilty about that Cause it was like, well, everyone should be able to have this, like, why, like, why me, Like it's, this is not fair for everyone else, why do I get it?

Speaker 2: 39:23

And and so, yeah it that guilt held me back from actually enjoying my privilege and using my privilege. I mean, that's the nature of privilege is it's not earned, it's circumstantial. I'm a white woman, I'm healthy, you know I, english is my first language. I, you know I'm financially secure, my first language I, you know, I'm financially secure and because I have those things, I have to use it. I have to use it for the betterment of myself, like getting able to afford therapy so that I can give that back to the community and, yes, other everyone should be able to have all those privileges, but that's just not the way it is right now. So I I feeling guilty does nothing like use the privilege for good and and yeah, so that's sort of. I'm still like I said, I'm still working on this.

Speaker 1: 40:37

Yeah, you know. The irony is as well is that because you feel guilty about the privilege and therefore you want to give back and you'll do lots of things that are, you know, giving back somehow actually more will come to you. That's the irony the more you care about people and the more you give out to those people, the more you will get back. You know it's. I absolutely believe in the laws of the universe, sarah, I really do. So bad news for you You're going to get even worse because you're just going to get more privileged. But no, I do understand what you're saying.

Speaker 1: 41:21

I had an interesting conversation with Zach Foster, actually, and he was talking in his episode a lot about privilege, but he was talking about it from definitely being a white, middle-class American man and that his family, half of his family, had been in this. You know the white slavers, you know they had had black servants and you know he only just discovered this and he was talking about the guilt that this was part of his family and we weren't that far down the road. You know it wasn't like 500 years ago. So yeah, it is. It does sound like a strange thing. I mean I said to you before we came on the show today, sarah, that I'd had an interview yesterday with someone who had had a very, very, very, very, very, very tough life and was very underprivileged in many ways, and I did actually feel the same as you.

Speaker 1: 42:14

I went and sat and looked out of my window and thought I feel quite bad in a way, because I've talked about my childhood, that I was damaged by my childhood, but all that was really that was my dad was a bit emotionally unavailable and I started. I started thinking wow, there are people out there who've really got it bad. Yeah, but here's an interesting thing my therapist taught me at that time, which was I used to say things like that to her. You say, well, I haven't had it that bad in my childhood. I mean, there's a lot worse that we know goes on violence and sexual abuse, etc. I said I haven't had it that bad and she said everybody's pain is, is is relevant, and what's the word she used, not relevant? Everybody's pain is relative to themselves. You know, if you are feeling pain, it is real and it's your pain and you need to be able to work through it.

Speaker 1: 43:10

You cannot compare yourself to somebody else. You can't say, well, they've had it so much worse. So you need to be able to work through it. You cannot compare yourself to somebody else. You can't say, well, they've had it so much worse. So I need to just dull my pain right down and I need to be grateful and thankful for everything. You still are entitled to work on your pain and what has affected you. That was one of the most important things that my therapist taught me. I don't think that's so true. So, yeah, it's a very difficult line, isn't it? It's a very difficult line that feeling of privilege but still feeling like you have your own pain, or you have your own anxiety or your own guilt, and you still got to deal with that, even though you're thinking, well, I really shouldn't be sitting here talking about it because, for goodness sakes, I'm so privileged, but it's a kind of vicious cycle really. But you are entitled to have those feelings and you are entitled to talk about those feelings.

Speaker 2: 43:58

Yes, so this, something like this, came up actually just last week for me. I was in a my son, they had a parent night in his classroom and so I was there with some of the other parents and his teacher and we were talking about this idea of goodness in the world for children under the age of seven especially, and how we need to sort of make a bubble around them and maybe not like watch the news in front of them or have those conversations which I've been guilty of, you know, talking to my mom in front of them and complaining about the state of the world, because these children need to need to trust that they're the world is good and then, as they sort of develop, they're able to look more critically, take action. And I remember when this conversation was happening, that sort of privilege, guilt sort of showed up for me and I was thinking, you know, yes, I don't disagree that children need to feel safe and and that the world is good. But I felt it was really sticky for me because I was like that's such a privilege because there are so many children I mean, there's children in Gaza right now that are dealing with, you know, losing their families and some very real stuff.

Speaker 2: 45:18

And and why, like, why is it that you know these American children right now? Get you know this little bubble created around them? But ultimately, it's For those children anywhere in the world that have that privilege. It's so important to create that for them because when they grow up, they will have that innate sense of goodness and they will be able to fight the good fight. So it was, yeah, it was just. I think I have a real justice complex. I want things to be fair and and they're not right now, and so, but realizing that, uh, yeah, to use the privilege again, is is, is is not a bad thing, yeah.

Speaker 1: 46:10

So how do you intend to try and give back then? Because you said you know I've got I and give back then because you said you know I want to try and give back to society or do what I can to alleviate that burden of feeling, that guilt or, you know, believing that it's not fair and there should be justice. So what do you want to do to try and give back?

Speaker 2: 46:33

I remember when I first started my business it was really before I was doing art where my intention was to give back. You know, 10% of everything I earned creating my art would go into some sort of charity, and I think that is and I still think that's good, and we do give a lot financially to to different organizations that we support. And part of it for me is also working for free in some cases, which I I like. When I work in the radio station, I still do like that's an unpaid job for me, and something I I do joyfully and I think that's key for me is this idea of giving back. It doesn't have to be punitive. This isn't like the Middle Ages, where they take whatever the 10% or it needs to come from a place of joy. But for me, what it looks like right now is spending my time and, to a certain extent, my dollars to help organizations that are doing the good work or making the world a better place.

Speaker 2: 47:48

Even right now here in Chicago it's a very liberal city. We're sort of in a bubble here in the US in so many ways. That's getting involved with the parents in my and the other parents in my kids' school and forming community action groups and sharing resources, calling my senators, calling my representative in the House, writing letters I have the. I'm privileged to have the time to be able to do those things Protesting. A few weeks ago I organized a protest sign making party where I supplied all the. I supplied all the um, the art stuff, the paper and the, you know, the posts and whatnot, so that we can all make signs to go protest. Um, it's yeah, those are the types of things I can do right now. Uh, and I'm sure that will evolve.

Speaker 2: 48:55

As you know, my life changes as well. But it's that sense of doing what I can for my community, I think is what it comes down to. We are in a position right now where we can do the financial support. But even if that were taken away, even if I were, you know, if I were poor again, I can still show up for my community. I can still, you know, do the craft nights, do the, you know whatever.

Speaker 2: 49:31

All of that helps to foster a strong community that looks out for each other, foster a strong community that looks out for each other. And I think, you know, in this hyper-connected world, it's great that I can speak with you across an ocean, but on a day-to-day level it's leaving my house and connecting with my neighbors and connecting with my neighbors Just being a good Samaritan. It sounds so like I don't know. You know 1950s idealism, but I think we've lost a lot of that, like being the friendly person to talk to or shoulder to cry on, like that's giving back too. So it can be big and small, so it's sort of yeah, and it's evolving. I don't know if that answers your question.

Speaker 1: 50:24

No, it does. No, it really does, and I think it's so important to give back to, you know, as we call it, the collective, the collective of people that we surround ourselves with, as you say, your neighbors, but also people across the world like you. And you know it's like me with this podcast.

Speaker 1: 50:38

I don't earn a single penny from this podcast, and it costs me quite a bit because I have to pay for a podcast host and I have to pay for the app that I'm using today, riverside, to to do it, but I love it.

Speaker 1: 50:51

It brings me great joy. And what brings me really great joy is when I get the comments or the emails from people, and I get a lot saying I listened to your episode today. I am now going to try what you said, or I've realized I'm not the only one, or you've brightened my day, not me, but the person that I've been interviewing, and these are fantastic things. And I think by giving back and, as you've said, there are fantastic things. And I think by giving back and, as you've said, there, just being part of that community and doing what you can, as you say, it's making signs. With people doing what you can, it makes you feel so good. But, as I've said, sarah, I think things come back in unexpected ways. Things will come back to you and I'm not saying that you do things from monetary gain.

Speaker 2: 51:39

I'm saying that you, you put out there what you want and you give and yeah, it all comes around and goes around a few months back, I came across a situation where here in the us, um, a couple quilters were being censored from a big american know guilt for quilters and they were censored. One was, you know, one artist had a piece of work that was discussing reproductive freedoms and the organizers of the show were like, no, we're not having that here. And and then another one made a beautiful abstract piece that they thought looked a little too much like a vagina. So they're like, we're not going to hold, we're not going to show this, and so I it just like. That was one of those injustices to me really irritated me. I couldn't let it go and I reached out to the artist and I said hey, do you mind if I write a blog post about this? Um, and can I like show your work? I just, I'm just going to write this thing and honestly, I was expecting maybe a hundred people to read it.

Speaker 2: 52:59

I ended up with 20,000 people on my website in one week from around the world, and I will say, like I'm pretty sure I'm blacklisted from certain organizations in the US and this is a part of using my privilege too. Like it's not, I would rather have my name blacklisted by organizations like that and not be able to show my work with them, but use my voice for justice, and perhaps organizations that are more aligned with me will be attracted to that. So for me, it was worth. You know, it's certainly worth getting a little bit of extra attention, and I'm not, you know, I'm not, you know, even though I was just talking about making protest signs, I'm not, you know. Let me try to say something that's overly aggressive, but I do, as I said before, have that sense of justice in me.

Speaker 2: 54:05

Yeah, it was. It was very worth it for me to potentially lose exhibition opportunities To align myself with something With a greater cause. I know, if I were, if I were in a position where I was really struggling to make ends meet. That also limits your voice in so many ways, because you need those opportunities, you need everything you can get, but because I guess I'm not, I'm not holding on for dear life, so to speak, I can use my voice to criticize power or criticize those organizations that, in my view, are unethical, and so that's yeah, that's another way of using privilege for me that came up recently yeah, but I think you also find your people, sarah.

Speaker 1: 55:07

There is no point. I've said this in so many podcasts. I apologize, dear listener, if you've listened to these podcasts and you know what I'm going to say right now. What's my favorite phrase? People are going. Janet Clare when she said that authenticity is magnetic. That's right, because that's one of my favorite sayings. Authenticity is magnetic. You, if you're being your authentic self, the right people will be drawn to you and the wrong people will go.

Speaker 1: 55:33

I remember when I first started breaking the blocks and I started the Instagram account and I had like 22 followers and then I decided to put up a post that was just me talking about something and the first couple of posts had been about the podcast. So I'd gained some followers who were like they obviously found me somehow and they were like oh, this is a podcast. And I think I lost like five followers and it was very obvious because I'd only had 22. And I remember saying my daughter was still in the room next door she's gone to uni now but I shouted at her and she was like what's going on? I've lost five followers. She thought this was hilarious, but I said I'm really upset. I'm really upset because that's me. They've rejected me and she went. Good, they can now trot on and you'll find five new ones who will like what you've just said.

Speaker 1: 56:19

Should you? Because I said should I take the post down? Should I take the post down? She said no, you have to be you If you're creating this account. You have to be you, because that's who the authentic person is. You can't pretend to be something, and I was like you are absolutely right, you are absolutely right and that's what I just follow. Now. I just put up whatever I want to put up and, yeah, I lose followers. I put up something about me rambling on and people go oh, I'm not interested.

Speaker 1: 56:44

But you know you have to be you, so you're losing those opportunities. At those galleries, at those exhibition places, you'll find new opportunities from other people who really appreciated what you did, and they will fill the gap, and that is so important. You have to use your voice, yeah, for others and for yourself. And, by the way, on that note, I would like to say I saw those two pieces that you're talking about and I didn't see anything myself in them that was offensive. And if you, first of all, two things.

Speaker 1: 57:15

If you go to the National Portrait Gallery in London or the National Gallery inon, you'll see lots of vaginas on display. They're mostly from paintings from the 18th century, but there are lots of naked ladies there in full frontal for you to have a look at. And the second thing is that if I open my explore page on my instagram and this seems to be becoming very prolific now, more than it used to be there are lots of things popping up that seem to be ladies in compromising positions in very little clothing that are far more offensive than that quote, which I couldn't see myself. What the problem was, absolutely so, yeah, I think there's a lot more in the world to be worrying about than some fabric. It was a statement piece. So, yeah, I applaud you on that and that's fantastic and you were seen by 20,000 people. Yeah, that's great, that's great.

Speaker 2: 58:18

Yeah, absolutely. Have you seen, by 20,000 people, and that's great, that's great. Yes, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 58:20

Have you. It's interesting, though, because one of the things that you said you struggled from as well was the postpartum anxiety, and obviously, when you make a decision to use your voice, as you've just done there, and there is a potential that those opportunities are going to be closed down to you because of what you've just written we know why, of all the reasons we've just said, but that in itself can be anxiety inducing, and particularly to someone who has suffered from serious anxiety.

Speaker 2: 58:47

So much of it is A just acknowledging that it's there. And also I journal. I journal every day, I do the you know the morning pages where I wake up and I just brain dump everything. And there's some, there is some magic in that Just being able to, you know, see the patterns and um, identify and then shifts or patterns of thought and patterns of behavior or be able to separate them from you as a spiritual being. So those things have all been really helpful for me. Also, I channel a lot of emotion into my art, so for me, making art is therapeutic.

Speaker 2: 59:36

When I work on a portrait, I almost feel like while I'm working on it I absorb a little bit of the emotion of the person that I'm portraying. And just recently I did a portrait of an American abolitionist by the name of John Brown, who was the first man executed for treason in the US. But his big sin was he was, yeah, he was an abolitionist, he was anti-slavery, he was sick of basically, you know, polite society talking about how slavery was bad and not doing anything, and so he organized rebellions and freed slaves. And so when I was working on his piece and of course this was also I was finishing it while Trump was getting inaugurated, so there was just a lot happening emotionally in the world. But I felt a lot of that anger coming up while creating that piece of art. I was so ready to be done with it. I mean, I love it, it's a great piece, but it was like oh, that's intense.

Speaker 2: 1:00:54

So being able to channel things like anger, anxiety, et cetera, through my work I often don't know when I choose somebody to portray. It's hard to tell me like what came first, the chicken or the egg? Like am I? Do I choose somebody and then I absorb their emotions? Or is it that I'm already feeling these things and I feel the need to channel it into a piece, which is probably the latter things? And I feel the need to channel it into a piece which is probably the latter.

Speaker 2: 1:01:26

But certainly art has been therapeutic for me. Art, yeah, journaling, therapy sessions and also just being able to sit in my anxiety when it does come up. When I had those 20,000 viewers on my website it was the weirdest. Like that was the first time I had that kind of attention on me and there were a few nights there when that was all going on where it's like I couldn't sleep well and I remember telling my therapist I was like this sounds really weird, but I can. I can like feel people on my website right now. Yeah, I had just been able to find the moments of calm where I could and working through it and and uh, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1: 1:02:08

I don't know what the perfect answer is, but uh, no, that's great, that's how you work through it, and some really, I think, top tips there in terms of the journaling is a, really, and people probably think, well, what do I write? But all you do is take your pen to your paper and you just write what comes out of your stream of consciousness, really, and it's just writing those things out. I mean, I do think if you're angry with someone or hurt or something, it's great to write those things out and then throw it in the bin. Don't send it, don't you? The bin don't send it, don't you know? Don't send that text. Write it instead, because it's almost like you're just getting out of your system and that's that thing about forgiveness and then moving on, isn't it? So I think journaling is a fantastic thing to do, and I think they aren't.

Speaker 1: 1:02:48

I want to ask you about something else, though, that I know that you did, and I wondered if this was a form of therapy, because, believe me, I think this takes I'm just going to say it balls of steel to be able to do this Stand up comedy. Yeah, and you did this. So, wow, okay, where, how, when, what about?

Speaker 2: 1:03:12

Yeah, so this was in my pre-Chicago times and this was sort of something that came out of that first round of therapy that I went through. I was really I didn't know who Sarah was. You know, I was a little worker bee that went to work, came home, made dinner and got tired and went to bed and through therapy I sort of I remembered that. You know, one of my obsessions is comedy. From the youngest age, like I remember watching this CBC in Canada and they'd have the clips of comedians. I remember, yeah, five, six years old, I'd watch the stand ups and I probably shouldn't have, it was not appropriate, but I've always loved comedy and so, and who were your?

Speaker 1: 1:03:59

heroes. Who were you watching at that time? It was anybody.

Speaker 2: 1:04:03

I mean Bill Hicks, eddie Murphy, janine Garofalo, I mean now Ali Wong, I mean there's so many, um, uh, my gosh, hannah Gadsby, I really love David Cross, kids in the hall, a Canadian, uh, sketch comedy show. Um, I remember my best friend, she, she listens to a lot of podcasts and she's like, oh, they just started this improv comedy school in Vancouver. Sarah, you, you should join comedy school in Vancouver, sarah, you should join. And I said, oh, like that sounds that could be fun, but it also really scared me. I should also mention in this conversation that I was absolutely terrified of public speaking. In fact, I changed my major in college when I found out that one of my required courses required me to do an hour-long presentation. I was like it's not worth it, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, I'll change my major so I don't have to take that class. But yet somehow, I think, because it was comedy and something that I always really enjoyed, I was, I was willing to take that chance and so I ended up taking these improv classes and meeting a whole bunch of really awkward people. It's funny.

Speaker 2: 1:05:30

You would think that people that are drawn to comedy are very confident, but it was actually like we were a bunch of nervous balls of energy. I sort of had built up that a little bit of confidence A little bit. I was a little more comfortable with public speaking and basically being an idiot in front of people. I felt OK doing that and failing publicly. I was OK with that. And I saw a community college of all places in Vancouver. They were offering a stand-up comedy clinic. So I signed up for that shop.

Speaker 2: 1:06:06

You know the bad jokes we wrote that week and then after that I just sort of kept going. You know, I'd go to you know the pizza parlor who had a 10 PM show on Tuesday of standups, and I'd meet the local comedians and I especially it was is being a woman in the, in the, in that world. Really, that's the thing I credit with getting me more comfortable with public speaking. I definitely had jokes that failed in front of a room full of people and it doesn't feel good, of course. But to know that, even though it doesn't feel good, I'm okay and I felt I think, knowing that I was doing something in spite of being scared, it's like oh, I am brave. That really developed a lot of confidence for me and I will say that having that background tied directly into me getting a gig as a radio host. Tied directly into me getting a gig as a radio host Because, you know, all of a sudden, I was used to practicing in front of people.

Speaker 2: 1:07:26

Those are two of the very few things I can think of that you have to practice in front of people. You can't do it in a room by yourself. It was one of those little rabbit holes I went down. Going back to the beginning of our conversation, it's like I picked up that hobby but it developed a certain muscle in me. But it wasn't the life that I wanted but the skills that I wanted, and it was something about, for me, facing that fear. It felt like it was a big sort of life goal check mark for me. Yeah, so it's something that changed my life.

Speaker 1: 1:08:13

I think it's amazing and the fact that you said that you were terrified of public speaking. I mean, for me to go into stand-up comedy would be absolutely terrifying and I'm not frightened of being on a stage and all that stuff. But I honestly and some people have said, oh, you're really funny, I'm like no, no, no. When I'm having a conversation with someone, on my little facial, I work off people. So when I'm having a conversation with someone, I'm a little facial, I work off people. So when I'm having a conversation with someone, I you know I can be quite quick with my timing. I get witty things in my head and I say them or I pull faces or whatever. But to stand on a stage and just be the funny one for an hour, it's. I think it's one of the biggest things that I respect in performers when they can do that.

Speaker 1: 1:08:55

It's one of the biggest things that I respect in performers when they can do that. But yeah, so I really admire you for you know being so. I just find that astounding. Oh yeah, I changed my major because I was so terrified of doing an hour long presentation. Then I went into stand-up comedy.

Speaker 2: 1:09:10

Yeah, what yeah?

Speaker 1: 1:09:13

That is amazing. When you did your comedy then, when you were standing on stage and you were doing your routines, what did you talk about? Was it kind of just observational, about things that happened in your life, or what? Were you a political comedian or what? What did you talk about?

Speaker 2: 1:09:27

Some of it was. I mean, at that time I was single, I was a single woman, so I did, I talked about the dating stuff, a lot of observational things, but I did have some sort of absurd jokes as well that were, I mean, I don't really remember a lot of my material, but there were some that were just weird, weird. I don't know who to compare it to, but I, yeah, I mean I tried everything and I think it was. I mean I tried everything and I think it was. I mean, the worst thing for me as a viewer is you go to those you know beginner open mic nights and you can tell when the person is scared and it's sort of like ripples across the room and everyone gets kind of nervous for them, gets kind of nervous for them and and knowing that and knowing that I was scared, it was just like, oh, trying, yeah, I was just so paranoid that that would happen to me, although apparently I have a very good ability to mask, mask that I I never got that feedback from people that watched me, but um, but yeah, there's something about facing your fears and I tell my son this like people that are brave or not, it's not that they don't feel fear.

Speaker 2: 1:10:47

It's that they are scared and they do it anyway, like there's something compelling them to still do the thing, and I think for me, that's what it was it was. There was something I don't know if I can name what that thing is there was something that compelled me to keep going, and I knew there was a skill I was developing there and, and you know, I had these dreams of, yeah, I'm going to stand on a big stage one day and you know people are going to be listening to what I have to say. I don't know what I'm going to be talking about, but I wanted that on some level. And so, yeah, this was a natural, a natural way to do it, even though it was, I was very scared the whole time, but I love that that you say to your son you know, when people are scared, you know they face their fears.

Speaker 1: 1:11:34

I mean it's that book, isn't it? Face your fears and do it anyway, scared, you know they face their fears. I mean it's that book, isn't it? Face your fears and do it anyway. And it's so true. And when we do face our fears, that is when we learn. We're doing full circle here, back to the beginning. That is when you learn, when you face your fears. Because when you face your fears and you do something, yes, it may go absolutely horribly wrong, but you'll learn from it anyway. And when you face your fear and it goes right, the exhilaration.

Speaker 1: 1:12:00

It always makes me laugh when I there's this thing I see pop up occasionally. I don't know if you've ever seen it on Instagram and it must have its own account and I've never followed it, but it pops up. So these guys are base jumpers and they have the person strapped to the front of them. Now, for me, I mean we have seen base jumping go tragically wrong. Yeah, but this somehow is a tourist attraction. I think it's like in some canyon in america I don't think it's a grand canyon, but it's a big canyon and they give the person a camera and they hold it, you know, in their hands, like this, and it's like one of those invisible cameras I don't know how work, but so you see the person standing there and this guy is going okay, so why are we here? Mandy Amanda's going, oh, because I just retired and I wanted to scare myself. And he's going. All right then. So are we going to take some steps to the edge? And she's going oh, I don't know, it's going one step. She's going okay. One step, okay, okay. And then he goes two steps, okay, okay, we're on the edge. And he's going are you ready to base jump? She's going I don't know, I don't know. And he goes we're going to count to three and we're going to go.

Speaker 1: 1:13:01

It's so funny. And you see this person, almost, like you know, evaporating in front of your eyes, and then they literally get to the edge and he goes are you ready? And he goes one, two, three, base joint Off. They go. And then, when the thing opens and they're flying, of course the first thing that happens is the expletives come out from the person, and then they realize that they're now gliding down to Earth, they're not dropping, and then you see this absolute elation in what they've achieved. They have faced their biggest fear. They've jumped into certain death, except they've achieved. They have faced their biggest fear. They've jumped into certain death except they've got parachute, but they have overcome that fear. And it is the most magnificent elation and these guys love it because they go how do you feel? Oh, I feel amazing. And then I know and it's so funny because quite often the person will go I love you, I love you, like this.

Speaker 1: 1:13:57

So this person behind them, but it is. It's that big emotion and we need those emotions in our life. We need that fear. We need to jump off the edge. I'm not saying go and do base jumping. Yeah, you know, we need to jump off the edge. And if that's standing up and doing some stand-up comedy when you're terrified of public speaking, and if, if it goes horribly wrong, so what?

Speaker 1: 1:14:18

25 people in the room are not going to laugh at you and you're going to walk out and they're never going to see you again. And you tried it. You have to try these things. Like when I launched this podcast, I just Googled how do you do a podcast? I had no clue. I mean, I'd interviewed people for years because I did it as a kind of you know TV presenter. I knew how to interview but I didn't know how to create a podcast. I didn't know about the technicalities. I didn't know if anybody was going to listen. Breaking the blocks are people interested in human stories where we just talk about breaking the blocks? Do people care? Turns out that they do. Turns out people are interested. So you just have to try these things. So I encourage you. Whoever's listening right now, what is your fear? What is it? And whatever that fear is, jump off that cliff with your parachute, but just do it but just do it.

Speaker 2: 1:15:16

Just do it Absolutely. Yeah, just do it. I mean it's it's never a bad thing to put yourself out there. I mean you're going to, you're going to learn something, and it's just like going through improv classes and standup is. Yeah, I felt scared every week but bit by bit, the level of fear went down, like my fear threshold was raised so that, yeah, I could do it on my own or I could do other things, and that's the same. It's the same with everybody.

Speaker 1: 1:15:49

And it's, and it's like what you were saying, sorry when you said about you know, uh, I wanted to have my voice heard, I wanted to get you know the voice out there, the words out there. I wanted to be seen in that way and speak my truth. And there are so many people who say all these things in their living rooms, to their walls or to themselves, and they don't say it to other people. They don't speak their truth because they're terrified. And while ever you stay in that room and keep talking to the wall, that fear is not going to go away. It's just going to get bigger.

Speaker 2: 1:16:25

You have to face your fears, otherwise they will completely overwhelm you and you will lose yeah, and I will say, you know, just tiny piece of advice for anyone and this is something that I used to do when I would go in for a job interview or even sometimes doing comedy. You acknowledge that fear first. I remember going into job interviews and I would say, you know? They would say, oh, how are you doing? And I would say, oh, I'm.

Speaker 1: 1:16:56

They would say oh, how are you?

Speaker 2: 1:16:57

doing and I would say, oh, I'm actually I'm a little bit nervous today, but happy to be here. And same thing, like like standing up at a microphone, like hey guys, I'm feeling oh man, I'm feeling the nerves with all your eyes on me right now, like people love that. It's like all of a sudden those folks are on your side because you're acknowledging that humanity. I think there's a part of that. There's a part of that, those feelings or fear of being seen in an authentic way that has to do with judgment and so much of it like fearing judgment of other people or, and often it's like your own judgment of yourself.

Speaker 2: 1:17:37

But what I've come to realize is, especially as somebody who puts my art out in the world and you as well, like putting your podcasts out in the world, you may get those nasty comments. I mean, who knows what's going to prompt them. It could be anything. But what I've come to realize is those commenters. It says everything about the commenter but nothing about you. So those like the hate, whatever vitriol that might get directed, it's a reflection of the person expressing it. Yeah, it's a reflection of them and not the subject of the comments.

Speaker 1: 1:18:28

Something I saw on Instagram again the other day. There was someone had taken a picture of a celebrity and it was actually probably a 20 year old girl and they had screenshot the picture. And then they screenshot the comments and then a picture of the person who'd left the comment, and it was very interesting because this was a 20 year old girl and I think she was a little bit. I can't remember who it was, but it was a celebrity who I think she was wearing makeup that was a bit kind of gothic and this kind of long black thing in whatever, and this the comments underneath. They were mostly from middle-aged men who were commenting on this girl and they were writing things like well, I wouldn't now, you know, or she needs to put some weight on, or she needs to lose some weight, right? Or, and I was like, who are you to comment on this young 20, you wouldn't now, right, I'm sorry, did she give you a choice? Yeah, exactly, do you think that you would have before and she would have allowed it? But I found it quite when you look at the comments and you go, oh, wow, and these guys as well.

Speaker 1: 1:19:54

By the way, were also some of the pictures on their profiles. This person dotted out the people in the profile picture, but some of these men were pictured with their wife and their daughter. Right, yes, yes, wow. So, yeah, it's a it's, it's, it's a very. We could talk for another three hours on that. On a podcast, right, my rule is never on a podcast, right my rule is never read the comments.

Speaker 1: 1:20:19

Yeah, you can't win. This is the thing you can't win. You can win yourself by learning lessons from it, but you can't win because you are never going to please everybody.

Speaker 2: 1:20:27

Absolutely Never going to please everybody, nor should you please everyone no.

Speaker 1: 1:20:31

So, sarah, in sort of coming to the conclusion, then, what do you still have to overcome in terms of fears then? So we've conquered the public speaking, we're conquering the privilege and the guilt because we're doing things about that, conquering the anxiety because we're journaling and doing things about that. So what is there left for you to get over in terms of a fear, or what do you still want to learn in your life?

Speaker 2: 1:21:05

Oh, man, I mean I'm still working on so many of those things that you just mentioned, but it's almost like some of these life lessons. They just sort of come back. It's like the spiral. So you work on it in another iteration. But, yes, the anxiety is still there, despite the work that I've done. Still, that fear of being seen in some ways, a fear of being seen in some ways, yeah, and sort of the ability to accept accolades. I'm one of those. Oh, no, no, like stop. I'm one of those, and so being able to accept good is something that I'm still working on. I feel like there's so much left to learn. There's so much.

Speaker 2: 1:22:07

As I mentioned earlier, I want to live until I'm a good old age. Knock on wood, I'm so. I love art so much. I want to keep expanding the work that I do, whether it's through fiber and other media as well, and and you know my dreams I would love to. I would love to have my quilt hanging up next to Andy Warhol in a museum. I can see it, I can see it. I would love that, and I know I can get better.

Speaker 2: 1:22:47

So it's sort of still taking the risk, still pushing myself, still sharing my authentic voice and sort of speaking truth to power authentic voice and sort of speaking truth to power. I still have some fears there, especially in coming into an authoritarian system now where there might be real consequences, but it's so important to do so. I think for me it all relates to that being seen, but being seen in my real, authentic self and being as brave as some of the rebellious people that I admire so much. There's work to do for me there yet, and so I hope yeah, I hope this podcast gets out there and then someday, years down the road, somebody can come back and say, oh look, she's a lot more now.

Speaker 1: 1:23:44

Are you talking about me or you Both?

Speaker 2: 1:23:46

of us. Let's go with both of us. Yeah, I want both of us just to be more. I want to be bigger and more Sarah. I want to be bigger and more Sarah. Make sure this I think about sometimes. You know I'm a spirit having a Sarah experience. We all are.

Speaker 1: 1:24:05

We're all spirits having a Rachel, Sarah, Michael, whatever experience.

Speaker 2: 1:24:11

Absolutely yeah. So let's make this, let's get on with it and have it be big and meaningful, and so that's what I need to work on.

Speaker 1: 1:24:22

I was going to ask you if you had a motto, because I always ask that, but I have to say I love that motto. I'm a spirit having a Sarah experience I think that's your name in that. Whatever that is, that should be a motto for people. So if you're a listener right now, I want you to say that out loud. I am a spirit having a experience. Exactly whatever your name is. That's so good, exactly, yes. Well, one final thing to say before we go, because I'm going to say make sure I want people to go and look at your art. First of all, sarah is going to be working with me on the Picture, this VIP Club which starts in June, over on the Crafty Mungers website, very excited to see what you because I gave.

Speaker 1: 1:25:03

Sarah and Nicole Leff a picture to create in quill form or any kind of art form, and I gave the challenge was to give the artists a challenge as well as our students who are going to be following along and learning techniques. So I gave you something which is completely outside of your comfort zone, which is a building or buildings in New York, because that's so harsh and rigid and structural for you, when all I've seen from you are these wonderful emotive portraits. So that's, that's what I've mainly seen from you. So I I wanted to give you something completely different, so I'm super excited to see how you are going to represent that picture.

Speaker 1: 1:25:48

So that's starting in June, but you'll you're at the end of the year next year. But yeah, people should have a look at that, but I owe the alien. Tell me just very briefly, where is that from?

Speaker 2: 1:25:59

that's your instagram handle okay, so, and I will say I signed my art as I owe the alien. Okay, there's a few, there's a, there are multi. It's a multi-faceted story. The whole, um, the alien part of it was originally started as a tongue in cheek nod to my immigration status when I moved to the US, because in all the documents coming into the United States they refer to immigrants as the alien. So I was like, fine, I'll be the alien, and then Io is actually a moon of Jupiter. But that's not the reason why I chose it. And now this is.

Speaker 2: 1:26:43

I mean, this is an unusual, a bit of an unusual story, but years ago I was part of a. It was like a woman's spiritual group called the Red Moon Mystery School and has since been renamed, so you can't find it under that name anymore. But part of that practice was to do sort of a meditation on a power symbol for you, and the one thing that kept coming up for me was this circle with a line through it and it was like for me that's sort of like a power symbol, but I also like how the circle with a line through it, when you take it away, it's just I and O, which for me has a lot of different meaning too, off and on, and you know all these things. So I really liked, I just liked the combination. I owe the alien and because the name sarah spencer is very common and there's another artist named sarah spencer as well as, of course, the uh member of the royal family or lady dies sister.

Speaker 2: 1:27:54

I was like, okay, I'm I, I think it, it makes sense for me to adopt a pseudonym for my work, and so that's where I was. An alien came from perfect.

Speaker 1: 1:28:04

I love it, and of course it had to have a spiritual meaning. It had to have a spiritual meaning, but I love that. It reminds me of Sting's song um, I'm a legal alien. I'm a legal alien. I'm an alien in New York in.

Speaker 1: 1:28:16

New York very clever very clever little catchy tune. That one yeah, I'm a legal alien. Yeah, I was going to say you are a bit alien, like really, uh, in terms of coming down to this planet and learning lessons, um, but you know you, you really are. There is just something um about you. I I really do believe as well. All that we've been saying in this interview is about being authentic, but I and things come back to you when you're authentic. But I also think that you find your people. I think people somehow come into your circle and it's interesting because I've been thinking I really need to find some new artists, but I like it to be organic. I do search through Instagram, but I like it to somehow happen, happen and I trust in the universe that it will.

Speaker 1: 1:28:59

And that day I just happened to be talking to Carl and he had just happened to see your work at a show, I think, or something, and he said you have to look at this girl, sarah, and as soon as I opened up your Instagram, I didn't even look past the first post. I look, which I believe is your husband, in pants and cowboy boots. Yes, yes, yeah, that's my husband. I should say underpants, because in America it's pants, which are trousers. No, he hasn't got any trousers on, ladies and gentlemen. No, he doesn't. No, he hasn't. He's got his little wife fronts on. And people are going to think it's a photograph. No, it's a piece representing him, but of peace, uh, representing him.

Speaker 1: 1:29:39

But yeah, that was the first person I saw and I was just like wow, I love this. I don't even know to go further. So I contacted you and I'm so pleased that we are working together. I'm determined to get you on one of my retreats. I'd love you to teach. Yeah, that'd be great. So, yeah, I think you're amazing, I really do, um, and I think you have, do have great things ahead of you, and I think, partly because you are a fantastic artist and, as we say, go and look at Sarah's work, but also because you've got that wonderful attitude You're giving back, you're learning, you're willing to fail, you have that lovely humility about you, which is that guilt, that privilege, but it's humility and you're just willing to face your fears and I absolutely know that big things are coming for you.

Speaker 2: 1:30:21

So yeah, thank you, rachel. You're so kind.

Speaker 1: 1:30:25

I appreciate you and look at what you just did. You didn't bat it away, you didn't go. Oh no, I'm learning my lesson.

Speaker 2: 1:30:32

Another lesson in this podcast yes, you're seeing me unfolding in real time yes, I have the power.

Speaker 1: 1:30:47

Yeah, it's been a joy. So you know, maybe come back and we'll discuss, uh, we'll go into the uh representation of women a bit more. Oh no, that that really will put off some viewers, but never mind, there'll be a few, all this thing, so that'll be fine if we find our right audience. We'll go into the representation of women a bit more. Oh no, that really will put off some viewers, but nevermind, there'll be a few all listening, so that'll be fine.

Speaker 2: 1:31:00

If we find our right audience, we'll find the good ones that we want to follow us.

Speaker 1: 1:31:03

Yeah, Well, look. Thank you so much. Have the rest of a glorious day and I'm very excited to see where the journey takes you.

Speaker 2: 1:31:12

Thank you very much.

Speaker 1: 1:31:13

Thanks for having me very much Thanks for having me. You're welcome. Just before you go, lovely listener, can I ask you a favour If you have a friend who you think would enjoy listening to this podcast, would you mind please telling them about it? It helps me to spread the word and you never know, they might get a life lesson out of it or, at the very least, just have a lovely 40 minutes of relaxing time for themselves.

Speaker 1: 1:31:32

The second thing to say is that if you have enjoyed this, it would really help me if you would give me a little quick like or a comment, especially if you're listening on one of the podcast platforms. It just means that when anybody lands on the page, they can see that people have reviewed it, they've liked it, enjoyed it and got something out of it. So if you wouldn't mind leaving me a review, that would be amazing. And the final thing to say is that if you are a business and you're thinking how do I get my message out there, Well, you could do it on this podcast. All you have to do is reach out to me, rachel, at breakingtheblockscom. The details are below in the box. Thank you so much to everybody for listening and enjoying and saying the lovely things that you're saying.